25/02/2016 This Week


25/02/2016

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Join us in our one horse town, for a political remake

:00:00.:00:14.

of The Magnificent, or not so magnificent,

:00:15.:00:17.

Shoot-out in the Westminster village, as Tory gunslingers finally

:00:18.:00:28.

LBC cowboy Nick Ferrari is our marauding bandit.

:00:29.:00:35.

Boris' move this week could see him on the way to being the number one

:00:36.:00:39.

will the dust ever clear before the public cast their votes?

:00:40.:00:51.

The Observer's Andrew Rawnsley has an itchy trigger finger.

:00:52.:00:56.

It's high noon for Sheriff Cameron in Dodge City.

:00:57.:00:58.

Will the Labour posse ride out to help him win his referendum?

:00:59.:01:07.

And quickest off the draw in the United States,

:01:08.:01:09.

Republican front-runner Donald Trump is winning the Wild West.

:01:10.:01:13.

Ana Matronic from the Scissor Sisters is diving for cover.

:01:14.:01:22.

Once upon a Time in America we had some pretty great politicians. Now,

:01:23.:01:33.

just a bunch of Tumbleweed. I see more sharpshooters in the This Week

:01:34.:01:34.

studio. Once you've met them,

:01:35.:01:38.

you'll never forget them. Now, hands up if you've

:01:39.:01:40.

ever been invited to But I know a man who has:

:01:41.:01:51.

Justice Minister Michael Gove, who was guest of honour last week

:01:52.:01:57.

at Chez Boris Johnson, for a wild night of anguished

:01:58.:02:00.

Brexit machinations - as they considered the pros and cons

:02:01.:02:04.

of the EU and stitching up Liz Hurley was invited too,

:02:05.:02:07.

no doubt for her intellectual insights into the Commission's

:02:08.:02:12.

attitude to subsidiarity and the ECB's approach

:02:13.:02:15.

to quantitative easing(!) Problems on the Northern Line

:02:16.:02:19.

at Angel, I'm told. For Downing Street euro guru

:02:20.:02:24.

Oliver Letwin was on hand, via speaker-phone - I kid you not -

:02:25.:02:28.

to talk them through the details of a Parliamentary Sovereignty Bill

:02:29.:02:34.

which Call-Me-Dave had agreed to draft just to keep BoGo onside

:02:35.:02:37.

during the referendum. But, after 20 minutes

:02:38.:02:42.

of Dearest Olly droning on about the constitution,

:02:43.:02:45.

as they tucked into their grilled goats' cheese on a bed of pureed

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beetroot in a balsamic drizzle, BoGo and GoGove decided it was time

:02:48.:02:52.

to hang up and Vote Leave, thereby illustrating

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an infallible Whitehall maxim - if you want something screwed up,

:02:58.:03:00.

just involve Olly the Wally. Speaking of people who bore

:03:01.:03:04.

for Britain in a reformed European Union, I'm joined

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on the sofa tonight by two people who believe in their own genius -

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think of them as the Kanye West and the Mae West of

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late-night political chat. I speak, of course,

:03:16.:03:18.

of #ramalammydingdong David Lammy. And #sadmanonatrain Michael -

:03:19.:03:23.

"Where's Ma Kilt, I'm Michael, your moment of the week?

:03:24.:03:40.

Downing Street keeps organising these letters about the European

:03:41.:03:44.

Union. All of them irk me, but the one that really irked me was the one

:03:45.:03:47.

they organised of generals and admirals. They were cajoled into

:03:48.:03:54.

saying they thought our security depended on remaining in the

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European Union. I thought how furious Downing Street would be if,

:03:57.:04:01.

habitually, generals and admirals gave political opinions. They are

:04:02.:04:05.

not there to give political opinions. It is politicians who make

:04:06.:04:11.

policy. I thought to myself, what sort of society is it where generals

:04:12.:04:15.

and admirals have political opinions? I remember, it is in

:04:16.:04:19.

authoritarian societies, in dictatorships. And the letter gave

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no reason why security would be better. And they put a general's

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name on it and he had not signed. Indeed. Your moment? My moment is

:04:31.:04:42.

the YouTube phenomenon this week of the 106-year-old woman who goes to

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the White House for the first time and ends up dancing with President

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Obama and Michelle Obama, who says, I want to be like you when I grow

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up. A wonderful black history moment. Wonderful. It is never nice

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to be jilted, and modern manners makes it worse, now that the default

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way is by text. Imagine the Prime Minister's anger and dismay when

:05:26.:05:30.

Boris' rejection popped up on his mobile phone only ten minutes before

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he told the world of his betrayal. Hardly surprising that Mr Cameron

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sounded like a spurned lover when he confronted him in public. Always sad

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when old Etonian 's fall out and turn Westminster it -- into a brutal

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form of the school's war game. But Boris cannot be bought by the

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baubles of power. Or maybe it was the prospect of power that made him

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do it. Here is his co-presenter on LBC Radio, Nick Ferrari.

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I've asked Boris about the EU more times than David Cameron has ridden

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If he didn't get the deal, then he himself...

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You'd be prepared to campaign for an exit.

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And he's gone back and forth on the issue as much as your average

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Because he is torn between the Scylla of disloyalty

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to his old friend Cameron and the Charybdis of what he sees

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as an unworkable political institution.

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Boris' ambition is doubtlessly vaunting.

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But this week ridiculous allegation after

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ridiculous allegation have been volleyed at the mayor.

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Critics have been quick to lob claims that Boris'

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But for all the buffoonery, this is a principled man

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who's expressed a well articulated and genuine view.

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Boris can put a powerful top spin on any argument

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and I think those on the remain side aren right to be worried.

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I think he could just steal victory from them on June 23rd.

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Because you can focus on him inventing stories

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about whiff-whaff, or dangling limply from a zip wire while waving

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the union flag, or blustering his way

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through a radio grilling, where he had very few facts

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# Cos you're hot, then you're cold

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All this whiff-whaff can be quite a mare.

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The mayor might have firmly grabbed the ball

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that came free from the back of the scrum and, to mix my sporting

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metaphors, he plays an open-handed game.

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And it might just deliver him the Prime Ministership

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From Bounce Ping Pong Bar in Farringdon to a volley of drivel

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here on This Week, Nick Ferrari joins us now.

:08:42.:08:48.

Welcome back on the programme. Nick, are you really asking us to believe

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that in coming to this decision, Boris never considered what it might

:08:57.:09:00.

mean for his chances to become Prime Minister? No, I think he has seen it

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as an opportunity as well but I think it is an absolute game

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changer. Suddenly you can say you are in favour of Brexit and it has a

:09:11.:09:14.

degree of credibility that would never be afforded by the likes of

:09:15.:09:19.

George Galloway. Of course he has seized his opportunity but I did

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believe him when he was outside his home and he said he had wrestled

:09:23.:09:26.

with his conscience. I don't think he found it easy. If his conscience

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had said, if I do this I will never be Prime Minister, would he have

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done it? Probably not. I see the opportunity he has taken but he has

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made it interesting for people like you and me. He always does. Michael,

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it was interesting, when the Prime Minister was on the Andrew Marr

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Show, he positioned himself with regard to Nigel Farage, four times.

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Now he will be asked, it is you and Boris Johnson. It is the face that

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the leave campaign was looking for. Yes, and Michael Gove, too. He is

:10:04.:10:08.

not as popular as Boris but he gives it a lot of intellectual clout. When

:10:09.:10:13.

the Justice Secretary says that the European Court is not going to

:10:14.:10:16.

respect this agreement, that carries a certain amount of weight because

:10:17.:10:22.

he is Justice Secretary. I am very pleased to have Boris onside, but I

:10:23.:10:27.

think Nick has probably produced the most tongue in cheek contribution to

:10:28.:10:31.

our programme in the last 480 episodes. It does mean that the

:10:32.:10:40.

leave side have the most intelligent cabinet minister in the government

:10:41.:10:44.

and the most popular Tory politician, perhaps the most popular

:10:45.:10:49.

politician in the country. It may not change the result but it

:10:50.:10:53.

certainly gives the campaign are much bigger shout. Yes, but they

:10:54.:10:57.

also have someone who on February the 7th said that leaving would be

:10:58.:11:02.

messy and go on for ages, and one week later changed his mind. It was

:11:03.:11:08.

beautiful orchestration and theatre. I suspect he got some spin advice

:11:09.:11:14.

from Nick, the next Andy Coulson, but clearly this is about an old

:11:15.:11:19.

fight that goes back to Eton. It is about Boris' desire to walk into

:11:20.:11:24.

Number Ten. Whatever happens in June, David Cameron is finished. He

:11:25.:11:31.

is finished if he wins. Why? Rather like in Scotland, there will be a

:11:32.:11:34.

backlash within the Conservative ranks about the guy that kept us in.

:11:35.:11:40.

And if he loses, Boris steps in. That is why he did it. At this

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moment, Boris is a figure that has vacillated, and that is never good

:11:47.:11:50.

if you actually want the serious job of running the country. I think it

:11:51.:11:59.

is an example of Boris' of wanting to have his cake and eat it. Even if

:12:00.:12:08.

it votes to remain, and I don't think Mr Cameron will be holed below

:12:09.:12:11.

the water line if the country votes to remain. But even if there is a

:12:12.:12:17.

vote to remain, when it comes to the next leadership the Tories will have

:12:18.:12:23.

remorse, and the man who led the leave campaign still has a chance of

:12:24.:12:28.

being leader. You can never discount someone like Boris. What intrigues

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me is the relationship between him and Cameron. I think both of them

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cannot quite believe how the other got where they are. I think Johnson

:12:36.:12:40.

thinks, how did he get to Number Ten. Cameron thinks, how can he make

:12:41.:12:44.

such an asked of himself and get away with it. The dynamic is

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such an asked of himself and get fascinating. I think Boris

:12:50.:12:51.

such an asked of himself and get calculation right because the way

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the Conservatives elect their leader is that members of Parliament select

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two candidates who are put before the mass membership. The mass party

:12:58.:13:02.

membership is very Eurosceptical. They nearly always vote for them or

:13:03.:13:07.

euro-sceptic of the two candidates. They voted for David Cameron because

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they thought he was the more Eurosceptical of the candidates.

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they thought he was the more great puzzle to me is why did

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calculation. Do you agree with David calculation. Do you agree with David

:13:20.:13:27.

Lammy that even if it is a vote to remain, Cameron is finished?

:13:28.:13:29.

Lammy that even if it is a vote to that he has told us he will not

:13:30.:13:33.

fight the next election, so he is finished in

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fight the next election, so he is Blair was finished as soon

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fight the next election, so he is made clear he was not going on and

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on. There will come a point when power will move away from the Prime

:13:42.:13:44.

on. There will come a point when Minister, and that will be

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on. There will come a point when than he hopes or thinks. It is clear

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that the Prime Minister was surprised by this.

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that the Prime Minister was believe he was going to lose Mr

:13:50.:13:57.

that the Prime Minister was usual suspects, Iain Duncan-Smith

:13:58.:13:59.

and John usual suspects, Iain Duncan-Smith

:14:00.:14:09.

context I have, you never quite know where you are.

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context I have, you never quite know He will sell you down the river. And

:14:12.:14:20.

he has done it to David Cameron. The way he reacted to the two, he

:14:21.:14:30.

did put the "bully" in the Bullingdon Club. The first broadside

:14:31.:14:35.

that he fires, he's hit the sweet spot because you look at the

:14:36.:14:38.

front-pages today and Cameron is limbering up to get him out. Those

:14:39.:14:42.

two - this is the opening exchanges - and they have got through... It is

:14:43.:14:50.

all bully, bully, bully. As you say, it was this morning, the headline

:14:51.:14:54.

was that Gove is going to be sacked for what he said. This is

:14:55.:15:01.

to the assurances... To be fair, Downing Street did move to slap that

:15:02.:15:04.

to the assurances... To be fair, down first thing this morning. I

:15:05.:15:06.

wonder how it got there in the first place. What did you think about

:15:07.:15:10.

that? I could never believe Downing Street would speak with two voices -

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maybe three or four! My hope of how there may be a Leave vote is the

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bullying will make people sick. When they see all the generals cajoled

:15:25.:15:29.

into writing a letter, Cabinet Ministers threatened because they

:15:30.:15:32.

say what is on their mind, people will say if this is good for

:15:33.:15:36.

business, for generals, for bankers, if the Prime Minister wants to shut

:15:37.:15:39.

everybody up, I might vote against this lot. If there is one race on

:15:40.:15:44.

earth you don't bully into things, it's the Brits. We don't take

:15:45.:15:54.

bullying. We don't. I'm not going to ask for a prediction. As things

:15:55.:15:59.

stand now, given everything that's happened in the first week, how do

:16:00.:16:03.

you think the result would go if we had the vote tomorrow? Because the

:16:04.:16:11.

Leave campaigns are in disarray, I would say that we would vote to stay

:16:12.:16:14.

in. Tighter than you may have thought a week or a month ago? The

:16:15.:16:20.

refugee crisis, frankly... That is a developing event. It is a real

:16:21.:16:25.

problem. The Prime Minister wants... It's a vote on immigration. The

:16:26.:16:33.

Prime Minister was worried about the migrant crisis, but the fact is we

:16:34.:16:37.

have a migrant crisis every day of the week. What do you think? It is

:16:38.:16:43.

probably remain at the moment. We have a Metropolitan focus, and it is

:16:44.:16:47.

very different outside London. I think it's a bit like shy Tories,

:16:48.:16:50.

there may be lots of people who don't want to say they are leaving,

:16:51.:16:55.

but do want to leave. There will be differential abstention, old people

:16:56.:16:58.

are more likely to vote than young people. And just as we couldn't

:16:59.:17:01.

identify Tories last time, many of those Tories who come out to vote

:17:02.:17:05.

will be leavers. So the opinion polls will have to be taken with a

:17:06.:17:09.

pinch of salt. Week one to Brexit, no question about it. They have won

:17:10.:17:12.

the battle. They haven't won the war. It will be tight. They are

:17:13.:17:16.

rattled. The remains are rattled. Thank you.

:17:17.:17:19.

Now, it's late - Chai Blue Nun Latte late.

:17:20.:17:21.

So pour yourself another one, and feel the sugar rush -

:17:22.:17:23.

because waiting in the wings, Ana Matronic from the Scissor

:17:24.:17:26.

Sisters is here to discuss coming to terms with Trump.

:17:27.:17:30.

And if you want a sense of the incoherent anger bouncing

:17:31.:17:33.

around inside Donald Trump's mind, just take a look at our Twitter

:17:34.:17:37.

feed, our Fleecebook page, and Gordon Brown's Intergalactic

:17:38.:17:43.

Now, here on This Week we always listen to our mothers...

:17:44.:17:51.

That's why David always wears a proper suit...

:17:52.:17:56.

And Michael even knows the words to the second verse

:17:57.:18:02.

of the National Anthem - though we won't ask,

:18:03.:18:05.

So thank goodness, a witty Labour MP heckled David Cameron

:18:06.:18:10.

during a rather predictable Prime Minister's Questions,

:18:11.:18:13.

asking what Call-Me-Dave's Mum would make of her son's cutting

:18:14.:18:15.

We're grateful for the question and the response because it's given

:18:16.:18:20.

Andrew Rawnsley something other than Boris Johnson to talk

:18:21.:18:23.

about in his round-up of the political week.

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MUSIC: Theme from The Magnificent Seven

:18:35.:18:36.

There were five members of the Cabinet supporting exit, the famous

:18:37.:18:38.

five of that time, and then we were joined by Michael Gove, so we became

:18:39.:18:41.

six, and, of course, now Boris has arrived and so...

:18:42.:18:45.

I'm just hoping we don't become The Hateful Eight!

:18:46.:18:54.

Well, partner, your bunch also includes "Wild" Nigel Farage,

:18:55.:18:58.

Do they deserve to be called "hateful"?

:18:59.:19:03.

David Cameron can think of stronger words.

:19:04.:19:06.

When it came to the Gunfight at the Referendum Corral,

:19:07.:19:15.

Sheriff Cameron always knew he would be confronted

:19:16.:19:18.

by some Cabinet outlaws, but the Prime Minister had been

:19:19.:19:21.

hoping they would be confined to more obscure Tory personalities.

:19:22.:19:26.

So he was shocked when Michael "The Lawman" Gove joined the rebel

:19:27.:19:30.

posse and he was taken aback when that blond bandit from the wild

:19:31.:19:35.

frontiers of Islington saddled up with the Out gang.

:19:36.:19:41.

Boris Johnson, the man with no shame.

:19:42.:19:45.

I have decided, after a huge amount of heartache,

:19:46.:19:47.

because I did not want to do anything - I wanted...

:19:48.:19:50.

The last thing I wanted was to go against David Cameron

:19:51.:19:55.

But, after a great deal of heartache, I don't think

:19:56.:19:59.

I will be advocating Vote Leave, or whatever the team

:20:00.:20:03.

More like power ache, so say the friends

:20:04.:20:14.

They report that the Prime Minister regards this as an act

:20:15.:20:17.

of unforgivable treachery, motivated by sheer vanity

:20:18.:20:20.

"Buffalo" Boris is just after the Sheriff's badge.

:20:21.:20:27.

In the hope of keeping the next four months civilised,

:20:28.:20:30.

Tory MPs have been urged not to turn it into a saloon bar brawl,

:20:31.:20:35.

which didn't stop their leader breaking a bottle over the head

:20:36.:20:38.

I believe that Britain will be stronger, safer and better off

:20:39.:20:48.

by remaining in a reformed European Union.

:20:49.:20:51.

I have no other agenda than what is best for our country.

:20:52.:21:02.

Much of the media coverage has presented the momentous choice

:21:03.:21:06.

facing the United Kingdom as a shootout between these two

:21:07.:21:09.

But this is - let's not forget this - everyone's country

:21:10.:21:17.

It's worth remembering that this referendum is about...

:21:18.:21:27.

is actually about the future of our country, not the future

:21:28.:21:30.

Good to see "No Cattle" Nick back in town.

:21:31.:21:44.

The result will greatly depend on whether the Labour Party can

:21:45.:21:47.

mobilise its supporters to vote for EU membership.

:21:48.:21:51.

And that's a concern for pro-Europeans, given

:21:52.:21:54.

the reputation of Labour as the gang that can't shoot straight.

:21:55.:21:59.

Jeremy "Old Timer" Corbyn is a lifelong

:22:00.:22:03.

Eurosceptic and struggles to be a persuasive advocate

:22:04.:22:07.

So it's important that other members of

:22:08.:22:10.

the Labour posse show they can hit a target.

:22:11.:22:14.

The Mayor of London, who has been touted

:22:15.:22:20.

as the leader of the leave campaign, said yesterday that Britain would be

:22:21.:22:24.

easily able to negotiate a large number of trade deals at great speed

:22:25.:22:30.

because we used to run the greatest, biggest empire in the world.

:22:31.:22:37.

Will he invite the mayor to wake up to the 21st century?

:22:38.:22:45.

Deadeye Dave has most of the bigger guns saddling up with the in gang,

:22:46.:22:50.

including every living former sheriff.

:22:51.:22:54.

I think and believe and certainly desperately hope that when people

:22:55.:22:57.

look at this issue, realise how much instability,

:22:58.:23:02.

uncertainty, difficulty the country would have if it actually pulled out

:23:03.:23:06.

of the largest political union, biggest commercial market

:23:07.:23:08.

in the world, right on our doorstep, I hope

:23:09.:23:11.

Compared with the passions ignited by Europe,

:23:12.:23:22.

Prime Minister's Questions was as arid as Monument Valley.

:23:23.:23:26.

Not so much High Noon as dull moon, until

:23:27.:23:29.

someone on the Labour side livened things up with a heckle

:23:30.:23:33.

I think I know what my mother would say.

:23:34.:23:40.

She would look across the dispatch box

:23:41.:23:42.

and she would say, "Put on a proper suit, do up your tie

:23:43.:23:45.

There followed an excruciating 30 seconds of unified

:23:46.:23:52.

Tory hilarity, before Jeremy Corbyn got his iron out of the holster.

:23:53.:24:00.

My late mother would have said, "Stand up for the principle

:24:01.:24:03.

"of a health service free at the point of use for everyone".

:24:04.:24:08.

And my ma would say, "Don't rope me into this

:24:09.:24:11.

With going on for half of his MPs against him,

:24:12.:24:20.

can Sheriff Cameron get through the next four months

:24:21.:24:22.

without things turning really nasty in Dodge City?

:24:23.:24:27.

Andrew Rawnsley there at the Django Bango cowboy town

:24:28.:24:35.

And we're joined now by cowgirl Miranda Green and Ukip outlaw,

:24:36.:24:44.

Outlaw? Mr Farage has removed you, what have you done, to upset Big

:24:45.:25:01.

Nige? To get sacked again! I don't know. Obviously, disappointed that

:25:02.:25:07.

I'm no longer Deputy Chairman. I have plenty of other titles... What

:25:08.:25:17.

have you done to joup set him? -- upset him? I don't think I have done

:25:18.:25:22.

anything to upset him. My co-chairman got the e-mail this week

:25:23.:25:27.

and we have been replaced. These are fresh faces? Well, they... Is it you

:25:28.:25:36.

joining Vote Leave, is that what he doesn't like? You joined the wrong

:25:37.:25:41.

club? I've said that I have joined all the clubs, all the Brexit clubs

:25:42.:25:47.

because I don't see the point in not campaigning with anybody that wants

:25:48.:25:49.

to get out of the European Union. Our members feel the same. He's

:25:50.:25:53.

never forgiven you, since you said to me on the Daily Politics that he

:25:54.:26:00.

was a Marmite character? Which he said himself on several occasions. I

:26:01.:26:03.

have taken a lot of flak since that interview. It is amazing, I still

:26:04.:26:09.

admire you greatly, despite it. I'm amazed you have still come back on!

:26:10.:26:15.

Nigel said he is a Marmite figure and that is the issue here. We need

:26:16.:26:19.

to have a cross-party campaign, lots of people on board, fantastic, Boris

:26:20.:26:26.

has come on board, because we all need to have different ways of

:26:27.:26:30.

tackling the Brexit issue. I will be talking about this at a fringe event

:26:31.:26:35.

in Llandudno on Saturday. I hope Mr Farage turns up. I wouldn't hold

:26:36.:26:39.

your breath. Who would be better to lead the Leave campaign? Would it be

:26:40.:26:44.

Boris or Nigel? I have always said again that I don't think there

:26:45.:26:48.

should be any one person to lead the campaign. I would love to see

:26:49.:26:53.

Michael Gove debate David Cameron. Whether or not that is going to

:26:54.:26:57.

happen - we know Michael Gove will antagonise every teach neR the

:26:58.:27:02.

country. -- teacher in the country. Should it be Nigel or Boris up

:27:03.:27:05.

against the Prime Minister? It could be either. Both would do an

:27:06.:27:10.

excellent job. I think... You have been very loyal for somebody who has

:27:11.:27:14.

just been fired? It is not about me. It is about... It is all about

:27:15.:27:18.

Nigel. It is about country before party. The current thinking is that

:27:19.:27:22.

there might be two teams having that final debate rather than one single

:27:23.:27:28.

person. What evidence can you give us that Mr Corbyn has any conviction

:27:29.:27:33.

for staying in the EU? Let's face it. Jeremy... Let's face it - that

:27:34.:27:43.

is playing for time! He is on the Euro-sceptic wing of the Labour

:27:44.:27:47.

Party. Having said that, he is absolutely an internationalist, he

:27:48.:27:51.

cares a lot about the social union that is the European Union... He was

:27:52.:27:57.

an internationalist in '75 and he voted against. The context in 2016

:27:58.:28:04.

of exiting he is sold on. For that reason, the Labour Party completely

:28:05.:28:08.

is more or less united. The Labour Party has designated Saturday as a

:28:09.:28:11.

day for In campaigning. That's right. What is Mr Corbyn doing? Mr

:28:12.:28:18.

Corbyn, I think is going to a CND rally. Correct. What does that tell

:28:19.:28:23.

you? Interesting. That issue is also important. On the day of the In

:28:24.:28:28.

campaign for Labour. I haven't seen Jeremy's diary. I would be surprised

:28:29.:28:33.

if he's not doing something also on the In campaign. We shall see.

:28:34.:28:38.

Miranda, there is a problem in all this for Mr Cameron, isn't there? If

:28:39.:28:47.

you assume the Tory vote will probably tend to vote Leave rather

:28:48.:28:53.

than Remain, he needs Labour votes to win and with Mr Corbyn, the

:28:54.:28:58.

ability to deliver these Labour votes is under some doubt. It is

:28:59.:29:03.

true. The Remain campaign does look as if it is going to be the Cameron

:29:04.:29:10.

campaign. He is the figurehead, and that is why moments like PMQs this

:29:11.:29:19.

week are really bad news for Remain. This kind of terrible Etonian

:29:20.:29:22.

arrogance is very, very alienating to a lot of people. I do think that

:29:23.:29:31.

it is going to matter how... When Jeremy talks about workers' rights,

:29:32.:29:34.

don't underestimate the power of the unions to communicate with their

:29:35.:29:38.

members the importance of staying in. Alan Johnson is leading the

:29:39.:29:43.

Labour In campaign, he is doing a fantastic job.

:29:44.:29:52.

The thrust of your campaign is workers rights? This country can't

:29:53.:30:03.

deliver workers rights? You sit at home, you generally vote Labour come

:30:04.:30:06.

you listen to the arguments and on this occasion you are listening to

:30:07.:30:09.

arguments from David Cameron and others. How will it galvanise Labour

:30:10.:30:18.

voters if you see David Cameron on television? On this occasion it is

:30:19.:30:21.

preferable to listening to Michael Gove or Boris Johnson. You think Mr

:30:22.:30:27.

Cameron will galvanise Labour voters? People are thinking about

:30:28.:30:32.

security, the place we trade with. They understand that there would be

:30:33.:30:42.

free movement even if we... I think people are largely thinking about

:30:43.:30:44.

immigration because the Prime Minister told them to think about

:30:45.:30:49.

immigration. The Prime Minister told them the main threat was from the EU

:30:50.:30:53.

migrants claiming benefits. I thought all of this was fatuous.

:30:54.:31:01.

Leaving the EU will make that worse. I am afraid the horse has bolted.

:31:02.:31:06.

The Prime Minister has told the country it is about immigration.

:31:07.:31:10.

This gets to the heart of it, which is that in most referendums, the

:31:11.:31:15.

onus is on those who want change to make the case. There is a bias

:31:16.:31:20.

towards the status quo. What's worrying for the Remain side is that

:31:21.:31:23.

it does not feel like that because it feels there is a presumption of

:31:24.:31:29.

risk on either side. So there is a larger job for David Cameron and

:31:30.:31:33.

Alan Johnson and the others on the Remain side, to try to regain ground

:31:34.:31:37.

that in other referendums is already yours. You would only be human if

:31:38.:31:44.

you were Nicola Sturgeon or Jeremy Corbyn not to think, I may want to

:31:45.:31:48.

stay in but politically it is in my interest that the country votes out,

:31:49.:31:53.

because that gives us opportunities we would not have otherwise.

:31:54.:31:59.

Politics is sometimes very self-interested, isn't it? I think

:32:00.:32:03.

what Miranda has said about the status quo is interesting. I could

:32:04.:32:10.

not understand how anybody who voted out in 1975 could vote to stay in

:32:11.:32:14.

now, when the European Union has got so much bigger, so much worse, more

:32:15.:32:19.

powerful, more dictatorial. I just don't know how he can look at

:32:20.:32:22.

himself in the mirror every morning and stand back from the campaign. We

:32:23.:32:27.

are not voting for the status quo. If we vote to remain, the EU will

:32:28.:32:32.

get more power, get more confident about having even more say over us.

:32:33.:32:39.

The safer option is to leave. That is Horlicks. We are not the sick man

:32:40.:32:45.

of Europe today. Look at the economy. That is because we came out

:32:46.:32:59.

of the euro. Look at where we trade. David, you are absolutely right, in

:33:00.:33:07.

1975 we were the sick man of Europe. I will gloss over the fact that it

:33:08.:33:12.

was a Labour government then. But you are right, we were the sick man

:33:13.:33:17.

of Europe. That is why we voted to stay with the winning team, which

:33:18.:33:22.

was Europe. Could you remind me how that will work this time round? And

:33:23.:33:29.

we thought it was a common market. No one said the European Union is

:33:30.:33:38.

perfect. Is the eurozone now the sick man of Europe? You give a bit,

:33:39.:33:43.

you gain a bit. It is about compromise. But on jobs, on

:33:44.:33:48.

terrorism, with the problems with Russia at the moment, the refugee

:33:49.:33:52.

crisis that can only be solved by collective cross-border agreements,

:33:53.:33:57.

are we serious about X sitting at this point? What is the unemployment

:33:58.:34:05.

rate in the eurozone? I don't know. You just said jobs are important. Of

:34:06.:34:13.

course jobs are important. If jobs are so important, why is

:34:14.:34:18.

unemployment rate 11th ascent in the eurozone? Jobs are dependent on

:34:19.:34:22.

exports, on those who come to this country, on the people that go to

:34:23.:34:28.

Europe and take up those jobs. David is doing a brilliant job, and keep

:34:29.:34:32.

at it, but this illustrates the problem. You are having to work very

:34:33.:34:40.

hard. Only with the Eurosceptics. The remaining campaign needs to

:34:41.:34:44.

reinforce the idea that healthy scepticism, a great British trait,

:34:45.:34:47.

should be applied to what the world looks like outside. I feel we may

:34:48.:34:53.

return to these matters in the next 17 weeks! 119 days. I wish it was

:34:54.:35:01.

longer! Now, according to Donald Trump's

:35:02.:35:06.

website, for the bargain price of $32, you too can smell

:35:07.:35:09.

like a Presidential candidate. His fragrance, Success By Trump,

:35:10.:35:11.

apparently "captures the spirit redcurrant, brushed

:35:12.:35:13.

with hints of coriander. As it evolves, the mix of frozen

:35:14.:35:23.

ginger, fresh bamboo leaves and geranium emerge

:35:24.:35:26.

taking centre-stage - while a masculine combination

:35:27.:35:30.

of rich vetiver, tonka bean, birch wood and musk create

:35:31.:35:35.

a powerful presence We won with poorly-educated -

:35:36.:35:48.

I love the poorly-educated. Trump trumped his Republican

:35:49.:36:05.

rivals again this week, storming to victory

:36:06.:36:08.

in the Nevada caucuses. I could stand in the middle

:36:09.:36:11.

of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody He's rewritten the rules

:36:12.:36:14.

of what you can and can't say Clearly, he understands

:36:15.:36:19.

the homeland insecurities felt Donald J Trump is calling

:36:20.:36:21.

for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering

:36:22.:36:34.

the United States. And feeds off the

:36:35.:36:39.

controversy he provokes. TRANSLATION: I say only that this

:36:40.:36:43.

man is not Christian, If and when the Vatican is attacked

:36:44.:36:45.

by Isis, the Pope would have only wished and prayed that Donald Trump

:36:46.:36:51.

would have been President. Barack Obama used to say Trump

:36:52.:36:57.

was running as a joke, But nobody's laughing at the Donald

:36:58.:37:00.

now, so maybe we should start to take his candidacy seriously

:37:01.:37:03.

because the idea of President Trump doesn't sound like

:37:04.:37:08.

a punch line anymore! I'd like to punch him

:37:09.:37:13.

in the face, I'll tell you. And Ana Matronic from

:37:14.:37:22.

the Scissor Sisters joins us now. Thank you. When the British look

:37:23.:37:25.

this they wonder, how is he Thank you. When the British look

:37:26.:37:41.

well? We used to just dismiss him as, he would blow out, crash and

:37:42.:37:46.

burn before Christmas. Now he is the man to beat. What happened? It is

:37:47.:37:50.

disheartening and you are not the only ones wondering how this

:37:51.:37:55.

happened. It is definitely happening in the States as well. I definitely

:37:56.:38:01.

thought this was going to be a Bush-Clinton race. And now it

:38:02.:38:04.

thought this was going to be a like it really could be anybody's.

:38:05.:38:09.

Mrs Clinton still looks like being the Democrat candidate. I think she

:38:10.:38:14.

will and that is really because there is a great, large block of

:38:15.:38:20.

voters in America who are terrified of the word "Socialism". With Bernie

:38:21.:38:32.

Sanders espousing socialism, it will terrify this large block of

:38:33.:38:37.

constituents. But Mr Trump has rewritten campaign strategy script

:38:38.:38:42.

for ever. I follow American politics closely. I just spent ten days in

:38:43.:38:47.

the States. Every time something happens, you think that is it. When

:38:48.:38:51.

the Pope attacked him, he attacks the Pope. A heckler is being thrown

:38:52.:38:56.

out and he says, I want to punch him in the face. If any British

:38:57.:39:02.

candidate said that, it would be toast. Yes. And in my heart of

:39:03.:39:09.

hearts, I still hold out hope that this is a giant performance piece,

:39:10.:39:16.

and it is a giant, elaborate branding campaign and name

:39:17.:39:18.

recognition campaign, and he will eventually pull out. He won't pull

:39:19.:39:26.

out. It seems he is saying inflammatory things just to see what

:39:27.:39:30.

he can get away with. It is shocking, the things he is saying.

:39:31.:39:38.

But in South Carolina, he got the evangelicals, even though he is

:39:39.:39:42.

basically a social Liberal New Yorker, married three times. In

:39:43.:39:48.

Navarre other, a majority, 44% of Hispanics who voted voted for him.

:39:49.:39:55.

-- in Navarre da. It is terrifying. It goes to show the level of

:39:56.:40:00.

disenfranchisement and disillusionment with the American

:40:01.:40:05.

system of government on both sides. It is not just the Conservative

:40:06.:40:08.

people but people on the left as well, which is why there is such a

:40:09.:40:12.

push behind Bernie Sanders. I like what he has to say and I think he is

:40:13.:40:18.

a great candidate. That ship has left the harbour. He cannot win in

:40:19.:40:25.

South Carolina. Donald Trump did not have the support of dyed in the wool

:40:26.:40:30.

Republicans. There was an issue of the new Republic that said, we do

:40:31.:40:34.

not support Trump. This is the Republican establishment. But they

:40:35.:40:38.

couldn't stop him, and that shows how fractured the party is, and how

:40:39.:40:45.

so far away from their voters they are. What is really, really

:40:46.:40:56.

concerning now is that we have a vacancy to fill in the Supreme

:40:57.:41:01.

Court. So the rumblings we heard from the right, which was the dyed

:41:02.:41:07.

in the wool Republicans who do not support Trump would actually support

:41:08.:41:12.

Clinton in the race, wash their hands and comeback in four years,

:41:13.:41:16.

now there is this vacancy, it's not happening. When the Democrats were

:41:17.:41:24.

in a similar position, they did not appoint a Supreme Court judge

:41:25.:41:29.

either. But if it is Trump against Clinton, who is going to win? I

:41:30.:41:37.

honestly think Trump cannot go up against a real politician, somebody

:41:38.:41:41.

who has been at work in Washington for decades. He has no record... But

:41:42.:41:46.

he will run against Washington, that will be his attraction. People don't

:41:47.:41:51.

like Washington. True, but he has zero policy, when you get down to

:41:52.:41:56.

brass tacks, get down to plans. He has none. He is just hot air and I

:41:57.:42:03.

think he will buckle under the weight. Trump against Clinton, who

:42:04.:42:10.

wins? I think the authenticity. He is like Alex Salmond, Boris, Jeremy

:42:11.:42:15.

Corbyn, that authentic position he takes will win through. Hillary

:42:16.:42:22.

looks very wooden. Trump against Clinton? I think Trump stands a very

:42:23.:42:29.

good chance. What are you up to? Personally? Lots of different stuff.

:42:30.:42:36.

Belfast tomorrow, DJ in. I have been on BBC Radio two and I just did a

:42:37.:42:39.

live lesson for the kids around the country, introducing them to the BBC

:42:40.:42:45.

Micro bit. Thanks. That's your lot for tonight,

:42:46.:42:49.

folks, but not for us... Because it's Guantanamo Bay

:42:50.:42:51.

night at Lou Lou's - and don't worry, despite

:42:52.:42:53.

what you might've heard, But we leave you tonight

:42:54.:42:55.

with the Prime Minister - who took his mannered collection

:42:56.:42:59.

of pointless oratorical hand gestures to Slough this week,

:43:00.:43:01.

to launch his passionate campaign He took his collection of oratory or

:43:02.:43:04.

hand gestures with him. Some obviously told him

:43:05.:43:16.

they make him look authoritative. Nighty night, don't

:43:17.:43:18.

let David Brent bite! MUSIC: Handbags And Gladrags

:43:19.:43:26.

(Theme from The Office) Thank you very much,

:43:27.:43:28.

it's great to be here in Slough, MUSIC: David Brent

:43:29.:43:30.

from The Office humming

:43:31.:43:45.

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