Browse content similar to 03/03/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
Line | From | To | |
---|---|---|---|
Tonight, as the pioneer creator and writer of Coronation Street | :00:00. | :00:07. | |
passes away, This Week presents another episode of the long-running | :00:08. | :00:10. | |
Petty squabbles continue over the future of the EU, | :00:11. | :00:23. | |
as the migrant crisis continues to get worse and worse and worse. | :00:24. | :00:27. | |
We keep hearing why are the refugees Owen Jones, is on the cobblestones. | :00:28. | :00:40. | |
We keep hearing why are the refugees coming into our street, but it is | :00:41. | :00:44. | |
actually the poorest countries who are taking the brunt. | :00:45. | :00:47. | |
The Street has always been good at building a plot line | :00:48. | :00:50. | |
but is the Prime Minister manufacturing Project Fear? | :00:51. | :00:52. | |
The New Statesman's Helen Lewis is pulling a pint | :00:53. | :00:54. | |
While the bars at Westminster are full of chatter about the EU | :00:55. | :01:08. | |
referendum, is anyone talking about it down the Rovers Return? | :01:09. | :01:11. | |
And soap opera, US style, as the Hillary and Donald | :01:12. | :01:14. | |
The man with many voices Simpsons star, Harry Shearer will be talking | :01:15. | :01:18. | |
Smithers, who is that power hungry billionaire I keep hearing | :01:19. | :01:23. | |
Evenin' all, welcome to This Week and the end of days. | :01:24. | 1:27:13 | |
We've got the gas masks, duct tape, Pot Noodles, | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
chicken and mushroom, natch, and a lifetime's supply of Blue Nun. | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
Alan's brought his harmonica, just to keep our spirits up. | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
But I fear we're fighting a losing battle. | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
Forget your biblical plagues of frogs, boils and Polish plumbers. | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
Because Project Fear now stalks the land and is taking | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
all the Project Fun out of the EU referendum. | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
We've heard the four-minute warnings and it's clear now to everyone that | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
leaving the European Union would, quite literally, be the end | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
Which is strange because only two weeks ago Call-Me-Dave was | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
"ready to walk away" from the European Union if he didn't | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
get his modest way on in-work benefits | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
And yet to listen him now, Brussels is the only thing standing | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
between civilisation and a dystopian world of radioactive cannibal | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
motorcycle gangs circling the M25 on customised high-tariff chopper | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
bikes, as feral tribes of unregulated children | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
fight to the death in Tina Turner's O2 | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
the Common Fisheries Policy, say hello to a scorched-earth | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
zombie-pocalypse and hordes of sun-burnt wrinkly old Brits, | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
forced to return from their villas on the Costa Del Sol, | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
to live among us as the walking dead. | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
Speaking of a terrifying future, I'm joined on the sofa tonight | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
by a pairing that's got disaster written all over it. | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
Think of them as the Liam Payne of One Direction, | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
and the Cheryl Fernandez-Versini of late night political chat. | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
I speak, of course, of #manontheleft, Alan "AJ" Johnson. | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
And on her This Week debut, #sadscouseronasofa | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
Esther "not attending Cabinet anymore" McVey. | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
Your moment of the week? It has to be when the mild-mannered Andrew | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
Tyrie, who is the chair of the Treasury Select Committee, basically | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
usually very measured when he speaks, let rip to Stuart Rose, the | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
guy who is heading the remaining campaign. And all week we had heard | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
words, Project Fear, statistics batted either way, but this was the | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
first time that somebody had systematically said how untrue these | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
figures were, because Stuart Rose had come forward saying what it was | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
worth to be in the EU. He said, the statistics don't work. You gave us | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
five sets, two do not belong to the UK, they are ten years out of date, | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
wrong methodology, those do not work. I hope it is going to be the | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
start now that we were actually get through statistics coming forward | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
because I think that is what the public want. We will be doing our | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
bit on the Daily Politics to do that. Talk about wrinkly old Brits, | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
myself and Michael Portillo are often criticised for our Neanderthal | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
approach to social media. But this week, President Hollande went to | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
visit an internet company and all his people said he has to modernise | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
his image. So he used this video app called Paris scope, but he did not | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
realise, and none of his people told him, where you could stop unwanted | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
comments. So throughout his visit, people's comments were streamed | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
live, about his thickening waist, his love life, his trousers being | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
too short above his socks. And after 21 minutes they had to pull it. An | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
absolute disaster. Hilarious. Never try to change your image and get | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
down with the kids. Stick to the wind-up phone. | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
Now, the migrant camp in Calais known as The Jungle has loomed large | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
in the early days of Britain's EU referendum, even though it has only | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
a walk on part in the far larger European migrant crisis. | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
More migrants have made it to Europe in the first six weeks of this year | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
than made it in the first six months of last year and the numbers | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
will only grow as Spring makes the sea crossing from Turkey | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
There are only a few thousand in The Jungle but they've become | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
pawns in the Remain vs Leave debate and French politicians have been | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
Noody seems to have any idea how to resolve the plight of those stuck | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
Here's journalist Owen Jones with his take of the week. | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
20 million French people pour into Britain, | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
They are being absorbed into our communities. | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
But it's not a million miles away from what's going on in Lebanon. | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
That's a tiny country and they've taken in 1.5 million refugees. | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
In comparison, we've taken in a handful. | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
We look at these people in the Calais camps and we ask, | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
But the truth is, the vast majority aren't. | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
They are in far poorer countries than our own. | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
Those few actually wanting to come to Britain often feel an affinity | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
Maybe they speak the language, maybe they have | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
relatives here, maybe they are from former colonies. | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
But we are expecting those countries with the least resources to carry | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
You've got to remember too that our governments | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
have been complicit in instability that's driven people | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
from their homes, whether it be wars in Iraq | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
or Libya, or arming a Saudi dictatorship that bombs Yemen | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
Now, I went to the camps in Calais and the people I met, | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
And the key difference wasn't their language | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
It was the violence that they'd suffered. | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
The Afghan kid whose dad was shot dead by the Taliban. | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
The Sudanese man whose fellow villagers were burned to death | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
The Syrians who fled Assad's barrel bombs. | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
But while we are turning shipping containers in this country | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
into trendy shops and cafes, the Calais camps are | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
And they are being replaced with containers | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
The thing is, you make this case, and it | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
is well easy to be accused of being some, you know, | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
But I think this is partly about patriotism. | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
Our country has been enriched by refugees. | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
Whether it be the Huguenots who fled France, the Jews | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
who fled Eastern Europe, or Asians who fled Idi Amin's Uganda | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
If we turn our backs when far poorer countries are doing far more | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
to help, that could be a matter of national shame. | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
But if we do more to help people, that | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
From Box Park in Shoreditch to thinking squarely inside the box | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
on This Week, Owen Jones joins us now. | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
We will come onto what is to be done in a moment, but once again you say | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
it is the West's fault. It is always the West's fold, isn't it? But a lot | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
of the people in the camp are Syrian. I don't remember us invading | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
Syria. A number are sub-Saharan African, Sudanese and Eritrea, and I | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
don't remember invading either of these countries. I did not say it | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
was all the West's fault. I said governments have been complicit in | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
various forms of instability, whether Iraq or Libya. You are | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
correct, this is a world riven with conflict and the West is not the | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
scent of all those conflicts. I never claimed it was always our | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
fault, so it is a slightly odd line of argument. In the case of Syrians, | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
and it is not to blame the West for that conflict, I would like us to | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
put pressure, for example, on Turkey, a Nato ally, to stop, for | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
example, Isis fighters going over that border and attacking Kurdish | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
freedom fighters. I would like us to put pressure on our Saudi allies, | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
who we are farming to the teeth, who are complicit in exporting | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
international terrorism. Is it all to blame the West, of course not. | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
The issue is what we ask about government, because we have control | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
over our government and can hold it to account. In a world riven with | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
conflict, by no stretch of the imagination all to do with the West, | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
but clearly the West in various countries has been complicit... I | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
will give the Iraq and Afghanistan but I would not give you Syria. I am | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
interested, too, that you want us to put pressure on the Saudis. That is | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
a British ally. You want pressure on Turkey, a Nato member. You do not | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
mention pressure on Russia, which is creating a new migrant crisis as it | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
continues the war, even though there is a ceasefire. I wrote an article a | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
few weeks ago calling for the left to speak out against Vladimir | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
Putin's regime. You just failed to do that. I was talking about the | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
role of our own governments. Russia is not a Western client state. We | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
can certainly call for Russia to stop bombing Syria. It is a country, | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
you are quite right, bombing civilians, killing civilians, and it | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
is another power complicit in a war which is murdering tens of thousands | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
of civilians. That was a short video. Let me finish that point. | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
There is a form of argument called a strawman argument, which is when | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
someone invents an Aga given their opponent and then knocks it down. I | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
have never claimed the West is at the source of all instability across | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
the world. Of course it is not. Countries like Russia and other | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
countries are heavily complicit. You have had the opportunity to | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
establish your opinion and I'm grateful for that. There is a | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
humanitarian case for doing something about Calais, that is | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
clear. But it would only be humanitarian. It would do nothing to | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
resolve the much wider migrant crisis. But there are practical | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
things we can do. There is a problem with unaccompanied kids who have | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
fled conflicts, whether Syria, Iraq or Afghanistan. Unicef are arguing, | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
and they have some practical proposals, is firstly that our | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
family reunion laws in this country are unduly restrictive. If you are | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
an unaccompanied kid, if you have a mum or dad here, there is a wrong | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
with the process that takes too long. I think we should extend that, | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
this is what Unicef are arguing, that if you have an aunt, uncle, | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
grandad or grandmother, there should also give you the ability to claim | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
asylum here. Equally, last year in June only one of -- one in ten of | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
these refugees coming to Europe were kids, and it is now over a third. I | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
think we should look to other children, particularly unaccompanied | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
kids at risk of people trafficking, serious exploitation, and also take | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
a share of those. What numbers are we talking about? Unicef have argued | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
not to set an arbitrary limit. They have said you should not do that. I | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
want to bring in the others. I agree we should be doing | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
want to bring in the others. I agree refugee crisis but I also think that | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
France has been very slow in tackling this issue in Calais, to | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
discern between genuine asylum seekers, Syrians, people from | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
Afghanistan, those that you mentioned, and economic migrants. | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
That is what needs to be done. It needs to be done at Europe's | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
external borders. There was progress this week about putting more into | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
that. Calais is a result of that, a symptom of that. But the French have | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
been very slow. As I understand it they have yet to even begin the | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
process of doing that. In the meantime, I do agree about | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
unaccompanied children. There is an issue about unaccompanied children | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
with relatives in this country that we should be looking at very | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
seriously. But if the argument was, and I don't think it was, that we | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
just move UK Border Force away and let people come across, then I would | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
disagree. And it wasn't argued. We'd still be part of the European | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
continent and wouldn't we have an obligation to be part of the | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
solution to resolving the migrant crisis? As internationalists, you | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
have to be a part of solving that crisis now. We all look at the | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
pictures, it could be your daughter, you know. You say, where are we | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
going to solve it, at source, what is the best way to send a message | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
across? The whole of Europe's dealts with this issue really badly. I look | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
at say Austria who was one of the countries saying we want a European | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
solution, they have now closed the borders, done what the nine | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
surrounding countries have done, everyone's gone into a | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
fragmentation, how do we do this as individuals, so we have got to say, | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
what is the message we send out. I see Tusk saying don't come unless | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
you are an economic migrant. A million people came last year. | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
There'll be at least a million, there's already been 120,000 and | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
it's only early March, that is this year. Isn't Britain obliged in or | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
out of the EU to play a major role? In a way it has, it's put in over a | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
billion pounds. That hasn't been coming? No, but we say, what do we | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
do to help Turkey, Lebanon, Syria. Actually, you don't hear me praise | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
this Government very often but there's been substantial aid to | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
parts of that region which we need to build on. The issue - I went to | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
that camp and it's grim when you go there because the problem with | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
refugees, they are often stripped of their humanity. They are very | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
complex cases because some have relatives here. Some work for the | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
British Army, you know, they were translators and put their lives at | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
risk and are being denied entry. I don't understand that. I met an | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
Afghan man who lived in Shepherds Bush for 15 years, was deported and | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
come all the way back and considers this his home. What unites them is | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
they have all fled violence and war. What we kind to do with an orderly | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
accepting people into the UK, we said we'd go over there and see them | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
in their centres and bring them over. 20,000 over five years? That | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
is what they were deciding on. Iceland's taking 10,000. | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
There's been a complete European failure on this. There were two ways | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
to deal with this migrant crisis. First under Schengen was the weakest | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
border is your border under Schengen and Europe had to do something to | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
strengthen the borders, particularly in Greece and southern Italy, do | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
something major, then it had to get together and, perhaps including | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
Britain too and decide look, we have a million people coming in, by the | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
size of our economies, let's divide them between the various nations. | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
None of that's happened. It's a fail, fail, fail for Europe. Two | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
points. You are making the point to Esther that actually turning our | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
back against the EU isn't going to solve the problems. People are still | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
going to want to move around the world. The EU is not solving the | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
problems. The second point, where is the UN in this? No international | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
organisation's covered itself in glory with this, tackling this. It's | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
on our doorstep. Yes, it is, but what have we been doing throughout | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
this crisis? We have been over there saying, listen, do you mind talking | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
about ever closer union on our agenda. In a way this was happening | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
for a year, it still seems to have taken everybody by surprise with the | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
sheer numbers as volume so where Greece said we could do 70,000, it | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
wasn't expecting 2,000 people every day. It's one of the greatest | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
humanitarian crises since World War II and help is desperately needed. | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
It's going to get worse. 20,000 is not a lot. Compared to countries | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
smaller than ours, like Sweden, they have taken in far more. These are | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
human beings, they have been demonised and vilified, I think | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
let's take a stand, let's take in some unaccompanied children as a | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
start. Thank you. Now it's late; diverted Ryanair | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
flight to Slovakia late, so take it easy on the Blue Nun | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
chaps, because waiting in the wings Harry Shearer, aka Derek Smalls, | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
aka Principal Skinner, aka Mr Burns To talk about the politics | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
of showbiz, and the showbiz And don't forget to power-up | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
the Vic20, Commodore64 and follow us on The Twitter, | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
The Fleecebook And Gordon Brown's Now, here on This Week | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
we like a fright. In fact, we enjoy nothing more | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
than dressing up an unsuspecting journalist in a silly | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
costume and sending them So when David Cameron's latest | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
warnings about leaving the EU were dismissed by his own MPs this | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
week as scaremongering. And one minister said | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
it was like Halloween come early. For us, it was like | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
Christmas come early. That's why we sent | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
the New Statesman's Deputy Editor, Helen Lewis down to the tombs | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
at the London Bridge Experience. This is her terrifying roundup | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
of the political week. Get ready to hide behind the sofa, | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
because a new terrifying monster The only project I'm | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
interested in is Project Fact. I think it's all baloney, | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
it's all Project Fear. The name comes from the Scottish | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
independence referendum campaign, where the unionist side | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
was accused of running a negative campaign, talking down Scotland, | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
issuing bloodcurdling warnings about what might | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
happen if the country Now, say the Brexiteers, | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
the same is happening again. I just think this | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
whole Operation Fear By the time we get to June, | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
we will have dragons coming out of the Thames, and serpents coming | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
out of our taps being predicted. The trouble is, | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
the one thing we know about fear campaigns | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
is that they work. And the pro-Europeans say the other | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
side have been doing some scaremongering of their own | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
by saying that staying in the EU means accepting | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
effectively unlimited The First Minister of Scotland made | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
a rare trip to London I think the answer | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
to the concerns that people have isn't to clamp down | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
on free movement. Instead, the answer | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
is to ensure that the economy works more effectively for people | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
who are currently unemployed or on low wages, or | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
struggling to access It is to generate hope, | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
rather than play on fear. And that wasn't the only | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
row raging this week. Angry Conservative backbenchers | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
demanded to know why the Government was spooking the electorate | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
with horror stories of life outside the EU when just a few weeks ago, | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
David Cameron was supposed to be considering everything, | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
even leaving the EU, If my right honourable friend's | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
rather apocalyptic view of our leaving the European Union | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
is correct, was it not both either irresponsible or inaccurate | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
of the Prime Minister to say he ruled nothing out | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
prior to the completion of the most unsatisfactory | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
renegotiation? We have secured | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
a renegotiation which I think addresses the principal British | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
concerns about our membership Now we can advocate membership | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
of this reformed EU, and I think we will be stronger, | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
safer and better off in that The leave side are also annoyed | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
with Sir Jeremy Heywood, the head of the civil service, | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
who this week ruled that exit-supporting ministers | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
should not have access to official documents that might undermine | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
the Government's case. MPs at the Public Administration | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
Committee were so spine tinglingly scary that he agreed | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
to back down a little. I don't think it's appropriate, | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
the Prime Minister doesn't think It didn't happen in 75, | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
very much the same precedent, to provide material | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
to ministers that want to argue against the Government's position, | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
so they can make that case And with Europe dominating | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
the headlines, where, you might ask, was Labour | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
leader Jeremy Corbyn. Well, he didn't ask | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
about Europe at PMQs. In fact, he had bigger worries | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
on his mind this week. On the day set aside | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
on Labour's grid for campaigning about Europe, | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
he attended a CND rally. I first joined the Campaign | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
for Nuclear Disarmament when I was 16 years old, | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
and I'm still a member, CND and the wider peace movement | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
play an absolutely vital They speak up for peace, | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
speak up for justice, speak up for human rights, | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
and whilst many of our media will never give any | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
of you the credit for it, actually have an enormous effect | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
on the politics of this country. Still, luckily for | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
Corbyn, on Europe at It now looks as though fully half | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
of Tory MPs will defy their leader With three months of rows | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
and splits to go, it's nothing less than a Nightmare | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
on Downing Street. The New Statesman's Helen Lewis | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
there in the tombs at Esther, remain or leave? Leave. Did | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
the Prime Minister's renegotiation play any part in that decision? Not | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
really. I wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt. He'd offered a | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
referendum, he was going to see if he could get a deal and I thought | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
that was only right. But actually, my decision came from earlier than | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
that. I would have been probably somebody who would have been more on | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
the fence, I could have been an in, but when I went to Council of Europe | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
the last two clears and saw how the law-making process was made, that | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
was really what changed me into saying if this is how it's | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
structured, looking deeper into the whole structure of Europe, do we | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
have a greater say, well not particularly. I was doing something | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
in particular, we had a blocking minority vote, it had taken six | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
months to get that, I thought this was going to happen, the law was | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
gon't going to come through, 4 o'clock coffee time, 6 o'clock the | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
vote was coming, it fell apart. There was nothing that could have | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
been realistically brought back to change your mind? If there could | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
have been an ability for us to have more of a trading union, if there | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
could have been an ability for us to act in different countries so it | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
could have broken it down so it wasn't a rigid 29 or nothing... So | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
that wasn't realistic so he couldn't have brought that back? No, but it's | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
interesting behind-the-scenes how many countries were actually saying | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
the things like that, but they never seemed to have the courage or the | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
convictions when they speak publicly that that's what they want to do. A | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
lot of people were talking about free movement. Doesn't your side of | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
the camp - don't you have to give us a clearer picture of what this | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
country's position would be post a Brexit? I do think we have to look | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
more into that but I think there are two pictures really. There is one | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
that it isn't all safe and fine in Europe. We see there is a gradual | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
destruction and falling apart of Europe. I understand that, but that | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
is what I asked you, that if you are going to take us out, we need a | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
better idea of what out means? And out means that we'd have the ability | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
to make our own Free Trade Agreements which we can do. We know | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
that the UK outside Europe would be the biggest export market for Europe | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
so we can stand alone. In fact there's one thing, if I had to do | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
one comparison, I feel at the moment people are wanting to stay in Europe | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
because it's too big to fail. When have we heard that before? Too big | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
to fail. We said we'd never have that again and I will draw | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
comparisons with the banks. We didn't know about the bank's | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
finances, they said the debt was toxic and they said it was fine. | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
Europe's the same, it doesn't clear its books, it has them qualified | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
accounts... OK. Another thing... No, no, no, Alan Johnson? Why does the | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
No Campaign we main negative? There is an issue that if you are joining | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
something, you stress the opportunities, if you are leaving | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
something, you mention the threats. The clips there, there was probing | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
on their position in the EU, there was a lot of talk about whether | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
Scotland's currency would be the same, a lot of talk about over | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
dependency on oil. If you are pulling away from something, you are | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
bound to emphasise the threats and the hazard. Now, that doesn't mean | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
to say the whole argument should be about that. I take issue with Esther | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
about it's always something done to us Europe, the poor old Brits | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
getting sand kicked in their face on the beach. Sometimes we lose under | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
qualified majority voting, who wanted qualified majority voting, we | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
did, Mrs Thatcher did otherwise you never get anything done if it needs | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
unanimity on everything and I don't agree with this, Europe is falling | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
apart. It's like the banks, you know, pre-Lehmann Brothers, it's | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
just such a caricature. Not in great shape though is it? No, neither are | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
we. None of the component parts of the European Union are in great | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
shape after what happened with the economic shock and in their case... | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
Our economy is in better shape than the eurozone? | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
This is the thing about Brexit. They say number one brussels makes our | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
laws, and number two we are the fifth most successful world economy. | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
Which is it? Brussels does everything, but miraculously we | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
happen to be a successful economy. On a mature basis we say, what is | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
best for the future, to work together or go off into isolation. | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
Project Fear worked in Scotland because there were a number of big | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
issues, particularly around currency, that were not answered by | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
the people that wanted us to leave the United Kingdom. That is a | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
weakness for those that want to leave because there are questions | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
you cannot answer, which will make Project Fear more salient. Except we | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
do know we can make our own trade agreements. We don't know for sure | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
we can make a deep single market agreement with the rest of Europe. | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
We know there will be something but we don't know it will be a deep | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
single market. We are the biggest trading partner, export market for | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
Europe. We will get something but you can't tell us what it is. It may | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
be fine, it might not be as good as what we have at the moment. That is | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
the uncertainty. At the moment what have we got? We pay a membership, | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
?20 billion a year. We get some money back. Not 20 billion. We get a | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
third back but we are told how to spend it. We have a trade deficit of | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
?2 billion a year. Who tells us how to spend it? They do not tell us how | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
to spend the rebate. They do in a way because it funnels down in | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
various schemes. Equally, ?62 billion is a trade deficit. We are | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
part now of a group which is diminishing on a global scale. There | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
are things we could do better outside it. So I don't go along with | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
Project Fear. As I said, we are part of something which I believe is | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
falling apart. We are running out of time. For Mr Cameron to win, he | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
needs the Labour vote to be mobilised because Tory votes will be | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
divided. There is no sign of Labour votes being mobilised, certainly not | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
by Mr Corbyn. I am doing my best! Jeremy was with me on Saturday. He | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
went to a CND rally but before that he was with me in Sheffield with the | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
campaign. Has he given you a schedule of rallies he will speak | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
at? We are drawing up. Are Labour going to give you money to fight the | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
campaign? Yes, absolutely, I am amazed at how much they are giving. | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
How much? I don't want to go into details. We will declare it. I want | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
to ask you this, if your side wins, Boris Johnson as unstoppable as the | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
next Tory leader, isn't he? He might be but everybody has to vote on | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
that. He is unstoppable. We don't know. We will have to see what | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
happens with Boris. He is on stoppable, isn't he? I think so. If | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
he gets through the process of MPs nominating him. I hear a lot from | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
Conservative MPs that think he is an opportunist and think he might not | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
be able to cut it at the dispatch box. It is tickled tattle. | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
Interesting tittle tattle. Now, politics is | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
a very serious game. Regular This Week viewers | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
know to their cost that if you get your head | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
on the wrong position, full-contact with Michael Portillo | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
can result in serious trauma. That's why it's always best | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
to tackle him below the waist much But with the American presidential | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
race getting Super serious after Super Tuesday and the Oscar | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
ceremony desperately trying to! We've decided to risk verbal | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
concussion and put the politics of showbiz and the showbiz | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
of politics in this week's Let us not take this | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
planet for granted. Racial diversity, climate | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
change, sexual abuse. There's plenty on the policy agenda | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
at this year's Oscars ceremony. Should politics take a leading role | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
in showbiz or would we rather lovies It's a cliche that politics | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
is simply showbiz for ugly people. The next President | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
of the United States! Donald Trump's campaign's | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
managed to combine the two, turning the Republican race | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
into a Machiavellian contest worthy Marco Rubio had a tough | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
night but he worked hard, he spent a lot of money, | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
he is a light weight. We choose Donald Trump | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
as our nominee, he will have carried out the most elaborate con job | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
in the history of American politics. Super Tuesday, it was the political | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
event of the year, at least for Hillary Clinton | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
who won in seven states. The former First Lady had superstar | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
name recognition but she's also seen as part of an elite that | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
people no longer trust. Harry Shearer and co | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
cranked the satire up to 11 They said there is no business quite | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
like showbusiness, And we're joined in the studio | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
by one of our very favourite people writer, actor, voice | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
of the Simpsons! Welcome back to the programme. Thank | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
you. Are the Oscars in danger of overdoing the self-righteous | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
politically correct stuff? The Oscars, self-righteous? Surely you | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
jest. But now they are about issues. This goes back to Marlon Brando who | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
refused an Oscar and had someone come up and take it on his behalf | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
because he was concerned about the plight of Native Americans. This has | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
been going on for a long time. The Oscars got a protest this year about | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
the fact that there were no black nominees for best actor and Best | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
actress. It was a protest based on the peculiar idea that Hollywood is | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
fair, or should be fair. This is a movement that started where fairness | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
was called for, public education, public accommodation, voting rights. | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
Fairness is appropriate there. Hollywood has never been fair and | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
never will be. The interesting thing is, you are right there is a history | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
of this, but it seemed this year there was so much, with Lady Gaga | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
and Leonardo DiCaprio and all the rest. Remember Philadelphia and the | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
Bruce Springsteen song? Yes, but it is more the volume of it. They get | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
to say their bit, they take a line. Leonardo DiCaprio takes a particular | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
line on the planet. And in his case, he is probably off on his private | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
jet. But they never get questioned. If they say things, if they take | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
policy issues, they have to face people like me to ask them | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
questions. They do not get paid $20 million a picture. This programme | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
pays very well for these two. I am hoping that! But they are not | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
publicly accountable. You are talking about the privilege of | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
celebrity, which takes us to Mr Trump. I watch with some amazement | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
the pundits in the States turning themselves into pretzels trying to | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
figure out this phenomenon. I am screaming at the screen, celebrity! | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
A guy who runs in the Republican primary and uses almost every | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
vulgarity and profanity would be thrown out of the party, except he | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
is a celebrity. A guy in the Republican party who has contributed | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
money to Hillary Clinton in the recent memorable past would be | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
thrown out of the party, except he is a celebrity. Celebrities get to | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
violate the rules. Show business, not in the Democratic nomination | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
process, but because of Trump in the Republican one, it is a form of show | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
business. It is all a form of show business. The fact is, American | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
politics has been for years decided by who makes the best 32nd | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
commercials. And a profusion of 30-2nd commercials is fuelled by the | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
fact that the consultants and advisers commission them at a rate | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
of 15%, so they have a built-in incentive to put more advertising on | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
the air and discourage politicians from making any other kind of | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
appearance than those for which the consultants get paid. I am | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
interested you say it explains it, because Mr Trump has broken every | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
rule in the book and you think, he has crashed and burned, and before | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
you know it he is soaring up again. It is interesting that you say it is | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
because people do not see him as a normal politician. They see him as a | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
celebrity, part of a show business operation. And therefore he is | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
judged by different standards. Yes, absolutely. This has happened for | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
Ronald Reagan and George Murphy, a former movie song and dance man. | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
Both elected in California in the mid-19 60s, and for the same | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
reasons, they were saying to the public, your politicians have failed | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
to control this out-of-control phenomenon. At the time it was | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
student protesters. And the public decided they had to turn to | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
celebrities to act in local and is an control the kids the public could | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
not control. Scary when show business takes over politics. It is | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
scary looking at Trump. He was the winner in Ross County where the | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
county town is 90% Latina and Hispanic, and he beat two Latinos. | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
Lets be fair, they split the opposition to Trump. That is the | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
problem. In almost all of these elections, the vote against him is | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
higher than the vote for him. So they didn't decide who should run | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
against him. You are seeing ego at play in the Republican Party. I am | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
the one to beat him! It is unbelievable how he has tapped into | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
two key messages, jobs and immigration. When you listen to what | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
Americans say on the street they say, we got behind him because he | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
made millions, has employed people and has used the fear tactics of | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
immigration. Even though he has employed immigrant is himself. | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
People seem to be forgiving him for those things because he is a | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
celebrity. Can he win as president? I don't think so. I think at the end | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
of the day the vote against him will be greater, but this journey has | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
been believable. You have a radio project. Yes, it has been on the air | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
for some years and is now on in London on Soho radio. It is my sand | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
box to make political commentary, satire. It is also on the internet. | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
Good to see you. Now, that's your lot for tonight, | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
folks, but not for us. Because it's Sam Smith | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
night at Lou Lou's. Apparently it's the first ever gay | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
club in the country! But we leave you tonight | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
with pictures from the camp in Calais, known to | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
everyone as The Jungle. The British media has spent many | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
months highlighting the terrible conditions migrants are forced | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
to endure in the camp, and the past week highlighting | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
the apparent injustice of the camp's It's almost like we can't make | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
up our minds what we think. Nighty night, don't let | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
the cognitive dissonance bite. MUSIC: La Vie En Rose | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
by Louis Armstrong. She's always like, "This is a nice | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
dress. These are nice shoes." I am in the shop | 1:27:14 | 1:27:13 | |
two, three times a week. | 1:27:14 | 1:27:14 |