21/04/2016 This Week


21/04/2016

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# I would like to leave this city # This old town don't smell too

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pretty # And I can feel the warning signs

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running around my mind # So what do you say?

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# You can't give me the dreams that are mine anyway

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# Half a world away # Half a world away

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# I've been lost, I've been found but I don't feel down.

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# A week in which Boy George flung off

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the sober suits a Chancellor is required to wear,

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and donned the flowing robes of a soothsayer to tell us not only

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what the nation's gross domestic product would be in the year 2030,

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but that it would be precisely 6.2% smaller if we left

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the European Union. Put aside the ungenerous thought

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that Boy George has never yet made a forecast he's managed to hit,

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or the uncomfortable fact that in last month's Budget,

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with the financial year only a couple of weeks to run,

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his prediction for how much he'd have to borrow was still out

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by ?2 billion. That's just the carping of lesser

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mortals faced with Mystic George, who only has to stare

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into his crystal balls to tell us the size of our economy

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in 14 years' time, If only he had the balls

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to know what the size of the economy will be this

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year, or next. I'd even settle for the winner

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of tomorrow's 3.30 Handicap Speaking of those with an uncanny

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knack for being the future once - and when you look at their pasts,

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you can hardly blame them for preferring futurology to looking

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back - I'm joined on the sofa tonight by two fortune cookies

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we'd love to crack open. Think of them as the

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Nostradamus and Cassandra I speak, of course, of #newtlabour

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Ken Livingstone, I presume, and #sadmanonatrain Michael

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"Chooey McChooChoo Face" Portillo. Your moment of the week? President

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Obama met the King of Saudi Arabia, and there is a bit of a new

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relationship going on. The United States is being very careful with

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Saudi Arabia and has trodden on eggshells with them. Obviously, the

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relationship is now strained because the United States has done a deal

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with Iran, there is talk of publishing what has been suppressed

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evidence about the Saudi Arabian connection with 9/11. I welcome

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this. Saudi Arabia is the unspoken subject in all the discussions about

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the causes of terrorism around Europe. No one ever says what about

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the amount of money financing the spread of Wahhabi is through Europe?

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What about the mosques being established by the Saudis, all of

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them address is. So let's put something on the table and discuss

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this. Well, you can see he has very little time for the Saudis, which is

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revealing. Harold Macmillan wrote in 1955 that he was worried that oil

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money coming to Saudi was funding a spread of intolerant Islam around

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the world. Your moment of the week? The depressing result in New York. I

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am a Bernie Sanders fan. Why does that not surprise me? My worry is

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that Hillary Clinton is so seen as part of the establishment, there to

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do what the Rich tell her, that I think Trump might actually beat her.

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She is ahead in the polls but Trump is a cynical hugger and he will move

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to try and get all the old Bernie Sanders voters. He still has to get

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the Republican nomination himself. Ted Cruz is even madder than he is.

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Ted Cruz is like the American Tal Afar and, you know. Is he into

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beheading? Something like half the members of Congress do not believe

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in evolution. It is just a moment of the week, not an essay of the week.

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Do I go on too long? No one has ever said that. Does he go on too long?

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Is the Pope Catholic? I think he is. Now, Barack Obama recently said that

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failing to prepare for the aftermath of toppling Colonel Gaddafi

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was the worst mistake of his presidency and in making his

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confession he managed to sling a few barbs at Call-Me-Dave,

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accusing the PM of being distracted after the warplanes of Britain

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and its allies attacked Libya Since then the country has

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experienced chaos and civil war rather

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than liberation and democracy. America, Britain, France,

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Germany and Italy meet next week and there's speculation

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that they may agree military support for a newly-established Libyan

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Government of National Accord. Here's author and journalist Rory

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O'Keeffe with his take of the week. Images of Gaddafi meeting world

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leaders in a Bedouin tent in my former home city of Sirte have

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become notorious, if not iconic, so we have come to our own little

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This Week tent to talk It's fair to say, the north African

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country has not been a gold standard of foreign intervention

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for the West. Barack Obama was right

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to call his failure to stick around after launching his F1-11s

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the biggest mistake David Cameron, who made

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the same mistake, could make Because once you choose to engage

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in other states' politics, you can't just clear off as soon

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as your bombers have The UK is proposing to do what it

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should have done five years ago, offering money and support

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to a Libyan government. But it spent the last five years

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preventing democratically elected administrations

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from using their own money Even now, a major reason the UK

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is supporting this new government, one of three operating within

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the state, seems rather cynical. It's likely to invite

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new air strikes on Libya. The driver for our renewed interest

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in Libya is IS, a horrific enemy, but only a bit part

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player in its Civil War. Western governments feared

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that IS members are running from Syria and Iraq to Libya,

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but there's little Putting troops on the ground

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for training purposes is appealing, but we must remember that,

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among the forces fighting IS in Libya, are members

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of Al-Qaeda and, whatever scare mongers might say,

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it's not IS maniacs risking their lives on the Mediterranean

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and leaking dinghies. The lesson to be learnt from Libya's

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grim recent past seems to be that the money is available for air

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strikes, but not to enable secure states which would make those air

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strikes unnecessary. From the This Week Bedouin tent

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to the sagging guy ropes of meaningful discussion on This

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Week, Rory O'Keeffe joins me now. Welcome to the programme. The

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president says that not planning for the day after Colonel Gaddafi's fall

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was his biggest mistake. Is it too late to put that right? There is an

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extent to which we could argue that the five years of chaos that have

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Vince Soodin mean there was a massive wasted opportunity, but I

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believe we have a responsibility and the ability to help assist Libya to

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write some of the rungs. There is this new UN backed government of

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National accord. The Prime Minister had to arrive by boat because his

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rivals closed the airport around Tripoli. Is that worth supporting?

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Absolutely, it is just about a government but there is certainly no

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national accord. There are three governments, none of which have the

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legitimacy or mandate of having been elected in a popular vote. The

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government of national accord unfortunately appears to have been

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foisted on Libya by the international community in the hope

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that it will invite air strikes on centres of population in Libya. That

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does not seem a form you for success. It would seem, if you have

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a country which has three governments, all of them well armed,

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knocking lumps out of each other, this is not a place to get involved

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in. Unless you want to get all your people killed, I think you are

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right. There is not the situation either to put in peacekeepers, or

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people who are going to be trainers. Let's go back to the beginning of

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that film. I think in general the removal of dictators has been a

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disaster in western foreign policy. Because what it has allowed is

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chaos, huge amounts of killing and safe havens for IS and Al-Qaeda. And

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it probably is too late. However, because we have made mistakes in the

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past does not mean all interventions in future would be a mistake. But

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what about Libya? I don't think there are conditions at the moment

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for an intervention, but if there were the hope of stability I would

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be in favour of supporting a government that could be a barrier

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to the free operation of terrorist groups that are a threat to us.

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Having created the problem, do we let them stew in their own juice?

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You could do a bit more bombing. That will not have any great effect.

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If you want to impose some sort of structure you are talking about

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hundreds of thousands of troops. We do not have the capacity. If it was

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just the West, no one trusts the West in the Middle East any more. I

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remember my first speech when I was 11 years old in the school debating

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society was denouncing Britain's invasion of Egypt in 1956. I can't

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think of any invention -- intervention we have done in the

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Middle East that has not been a disaster. This meeting taking place

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between the allies which includes Germany, who will not be involved,

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but it will involve Britain, America, France and Germany. There

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is talk of a stabilisation force, which would go into Tripoli, secure

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the airport and then start to train people there. What difference will

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that make? It is very difficult to see what difference that would make.

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I think we have taken the wrong attitude and we are imposing order

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on a situation where order cannot be imposed at this moment. We need to

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be working very hard to bring particularly the two sets of illegal

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militias which claimed to support two of Libya's three governments to

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some form of peace. We have been trying to do that and they would

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rather knock lumps out of each other. We have not tried to bring an

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end to the Libyan civil war. How do you? We need to engage properly with

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both governments and also with operation dignity which claims to

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support the house of representatives. These are two

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coalitions but one is run by a who thinks he should be the next

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Gaddafi. Why would he deal with us? That is true. What we need to talk

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about seriously is how peace can work in Libya and what role, if any,

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that general takes. You seem to downplay the importance of Islamic

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State, but there are about 5000 fighters there, and I don't agree

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with you. I think much of the intelligence is strong that many of

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them have come from Syria and Iraq as that has been degraded by

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bombing. 5000, they occupy right on the central coast line. 180 miles of

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that coastline, and they have been taking out a series of oil

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installations. They have failed to take them out. They launched a

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series of attacks on those installations, which have been

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defended by the petroleum facilities guard. I have seen nothing but add

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reports on these guys. Any attack is bad news. When Gaddafi was boss, oil

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output was 1.6 million barrels per day and it is now under 400,000.

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Libya is in a state of civil war. When you talk about me downplaying

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IS, I believe they are a horrific organisation and should be taken

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seriously but they are the smallest of the forces fighting in Libya at

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the moment and they are reliant on the continuation of the Libyan civil

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war in order to operate in Libya. If we are going to get involved in

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this, whether we like it or not, and there has been talk of 1000 British

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troops going there as trainers, is that they matter, putting aside with

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EU are in favour or not, is that matter for the government orders

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Parliament have to have say? I think it has been a mistake for the

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government to put itself in a position where it has to go to the

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House of Commons in order to go to war. That will be a minority point

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of view but I don't think governments should go back to

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Parliament. So I will say that the government should be allowed to do

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this. However, if it is claiming that this is a situation that cannot

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become dangerous and for that reason it does not need to go to

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Parliament, the reasoning is faulty. If you are sending in 1000 people,

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you need 1000 people to defend them. You need a lot more than that.

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Should government have the freedom to do this, or should they have to

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go to Parliament? Literally, London will be more of a

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target for a terrorist attack. There needs to be an open and honest

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debate about this in Parliament. Someone has to oversee them. They

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may well get it wrong. Don't they also have to have some leeway. All

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our foreign policy is dictated about whether whir frightened of people

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putting bombs in London, a hopeless place in which to decide on foreign

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policy. When Blair was planning to invade Iraq, he was warned by our

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Security Services, this will make a target for terrorism. That needs to

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be debated in Parliament. And he may have decided that was a secondary

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fact and they wanted more morn things than that. If you had been a

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woman living in Iraq under Saddam Hussein, you could walk around the

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street in a mini skirt, do that today you would be stoned to death.

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You are switching the argument, the be-all-and-end-all shouldn't be

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about whether or not we are afraid of terrorism.

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The point Ken made about life under Saddam Hussein, you can agree or

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disagree with that, but isn't the blunt truth that most Libyans are

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pining for the return of Colonel Gaddafi, probably? Funnily enough,

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one of the few things most Libyans today agree on is their continued

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opposition to Gaddafi. Really, how do we know that? All militia members

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and people on the street and I'm in regular contact with people in

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Libya. But the economy is now going to be the fastest tanking economy in

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the world, people are suffering from malnutrition there. Oil, which was

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the only source of Government revenue, is at record lows.

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Absolutely. If you were an ordinary Libyan, I mean Colonel Gaddafi was

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an evil dictator, but you basically had a job and you got fed? And there

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were supporters of Gaddafi, that's why there was a Civil War in 2011,

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there were people who fought in support of Gaddafi. The issue is

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however we are entering the third year of Libya's second Civil War.

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The country is tanking, no doubt, and the major mistake, and there

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must be a discussion at some point, but the major mistake we made was

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turning our backs on Libya when Gaddafi was killed. We'll leave it

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there. Now it's late, John Whittingdale

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in a lap dancing club late. And of course he was only

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on a fact-finding mission, honest. So make sure you declare

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an interest, because waiting in the wings, classical singer,

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Katherine Jenkins is here to sing the national anthem with Ken

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Livingstone. And if you like the sound

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of that, let us know on The Twitter, the Fleecebook,

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the InstaGranny SnapDrivel, And never forgetting

:18:07.:18:10.

Gordon Brown's World Now, everyone knows the royal

:18:11.:18:14.

family are above politics. But when hopes for a new royal yacht

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were sunk back in the 90s, And according to his biographer,

:18:23.:18:25.

Gyles Brandreth, he named "And then Portillo got involved,"

:18:26.:18:34.

said Prince Phillip "and made a complete Blue Nun of it.

:18:35.:18:42.

Absolutely idiotic!" Here on This Week we clearly owe

:18:43.:18:47.

the royal family a favour, and so to celebrate the Queen's

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90th birthday, we've commissioned our own royal

:18:51.:18:54.

pottery Here's his commemorative round-up

:18:55.:18:57.

of the political week. I suppose anyone doing a job for 90

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years deserves some recognition. So, inspired by Queenie's milestone,

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This Week commissioned me, a staunch republican

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and spectacularly bad drawer to create a commemorative

:19:25.:19:29.

collection of China. George Osborne started the week

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painting a vivid picture of, for once, a wrecked British economy,

:19:33.:19:39.

if we vote to leave Europe. Her Maj might even have to flog

:19:40.:19:43.

a castle if the Treasury is right The most likely bill for our public

:19:44.:19:48.

services if we left the EU That's an increase of 8p

:19:49.:19:55.

on the basic rate of income tax. Higher taxes and a smaller economy

:19:56.:20:05.

is not a price worth paying. Up popped that prince of EU leavers,

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Michael Gove, the Justice Secretary, to hit back at his chum

:20:17.:20:19.

George's gloomy predictions and outline his own Brexit plan,

:20:20.:20:23.

promising greater freedom, If we vote to stay the EU's bosses

:20:24.:20:26.

and bureaucrats will take that as carte blanche to continue taking

:20:27.:20:33.

more power and money They will say that we

:20:34.:20:36.

voted for more Europe. Any protest on our part will be met

:20:37.:20:40.

with a complacent shrug and a reminder that we were given

:20:41.:20:43.

our own very special negotiation, The former London Mayor Ken

:20:44.:20:46.

Livingstone threatened to become an emigre and move abroad

:20:47.:21:03.

if Britain quits Europe. The current mayor of London,

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Boris Johnson, offered to pack The Queen's 90th is on US President

:21:08.:21:10.

Barack Obama's legacy tour. Yet, before he sits down

:21:11.:21:23.

with her in Windsor, it was clear the political goal

:21:24.:21:26.

of the leader of an American republic which fought a war

:21:27.:21:30.

of independence to shake up the British monarchy,

:21:31.:21:33.

is to keep Britain in Europe. This decision is a decision

:21:34.:21:37.

for the British people We are sovereign in making this

:21:38.:21:41.

decision. Personally, I believe we should

:21:42.:21:46.

listen to advice from friends and other countries,

:21:47.:21:49.

and I struggle to find the leader of any friendly country

:21:50.:21:52.

who thinks we should leave. After the briefest of happy returns

:21:53.:21:55.

from republican Jeremy Corbyn, at Prime Minister's Questions,

:21:56.:22:14.

the Labour leader exploited Tory splits over plans to force

:22:15.:22:18.

every school in England Why on earth is the Prime Minister

:22:19.:22:22.

proposing to spend ?1.3 billion on a top-down reorganisation that

:22:23.:22:28.

wasn't in his manifesto, teachers don't want it,

:22:29.:22:32.

parents don't want it, governors don't want it,

:22:33.:22:36.

headteachers don't want it? Even his own MPs and councillors

:22:37.:22:40.

don't want it. We are spending ?7 billion on more

:22:41.:22:43.

school places to make up for the woeful lack of action under

:22:44.:22:49.

the last Labour government. With another doctors' strike looming

:22:50.:22:52.

in England, the Health Secretary was pressed to clear up confusion

:22:53.:22:56.

over whether he is imposing or introducing new contracts,

:22:57.:22:59.

whatever the difference means. Despite giving us all the impression

:23:00.:23:02.

back in February that he was going to railroad through a new contract,

:23:03.:23:06.

it now seems the Health Secretary Yes, we are imposing

:23:07.:23:14.

a new contract and we are doing it with the greatest of regret,

:23:15.:23:21.

because the BMA refused Had they negotiated on Saturday pay,

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as they said they would, Instead we have a strike,

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the first ever withdrawal Let me know if your royal street

:23:31.:23:39.

party is interrupted by canvassers because the political parties

:23:40.:23:45.

are putting out their bunting ahead of elections next month in England,

:23:46.:23:50.

Wales, Scotland and Northern And despite the SNP manifesto

:23:51.:23:52.

launched this week not promising a referendum on independence,

:23:53.:23:57.

First Minister Nicola Sturgeon made clear that is what

:23:58.:24:02.

still drives her party. Setting the date for a referendum

:24:03.:24:05.

before a majority of the Scottish people have been persuaded that

:24:06.:24:09.

independence and therefore another referendum is the best

:24:10.:24:13.

future for our country So this summer we will start

:24:14.:24:16.

new work to persuade a majority in Scotland of that

:24:17.:24:24.

case for independence. Cameron, Corbyn and the rest packed

:24:25.:24:33.

the Commons today to ladle praise on the Queen at the end of a week

:24:34.:24:42.

in which sovereignty I wonder what a prime minister,

:24:43.:24:46.

party leader or president would do Deference isn't my style,

:24:47.:24:55.

but I suppose the old girl uses a lot of crockery for all those

:24:56.:25:01.

celebratory dinners I wonder if she could do with a few

:25:02.:25:04.

pieces from the royal Kevin Maguire, ruining his chances

:25:05.:25:12.

of ever being awarded a knighthood, Leader of the Greens,

:25:13.:25:22.

Natalie Bennett, and her on-screen husband and leader

:25:23.:25:33.

of the Ukips, Nigel Farage. Welcome. Mr Obama has just landed in

:25:34.:25:45.

London. He's got an article in the Telegraph coming up in the morning

:25:46.:25:52.

towards the end it's strong, it's in America's interests, Britain's

:25:53.:25:54.

interests, in the EU's interests that we stay in the EU. Is he right

:25:55.:26:00.

to intervene? I don't think he is, no, but I'm not sure he really

:26:01.:26:05.

understands it. I was in Washington last year. Some thought that EU was

:26:06.:26:13.

a friendly trade club. That was a generous interpretation. It's in his

:26:14.:26:18.

interests and the interests of giant American corporate businesses that

:26:19.:26:22.

Britain states we stay in the EU, move on to the Transatlantic

:26:23.:26:27.

investment treaty. I guess it's the latter. Is he right to intervene?

:26:28.:26:31.

It's right for him to share his views. He's the leader of the US,

:26:32.:26:35.

he's sharing the US view, we should look at it with appropriate

:26:36.:26:39.

scepticism. He's looking at the view from the US first, but he's also

:26:40.:26:46.

looking at the fact that he is saying that the EU is greater than

:26:47.:26:50.

the sum of its parts in terms of its role on the world stage. When you

:26:51.:26:56.

put together a group of nations working together tot protect climate

:26:57.:26:59.

change and workers's rights, when you put them together and work as a

:27:00.:27:05.

group, that is stronger than if we were working alone. Will it make a

:27:06.:27:09.

difference, the intervention of the President? I don't think it will

:27:10.:27:15.

make any difference at all. When have you ever taken notice of what a

:27:16.:27:19.

US president said? I've always followed what they said. That's a

:27:20.:27:24.

different matter. At least he's not bombing us, he's just telling us

:27:25.:27:28.

what he thinks, that's a real improvement with American diplomacy.

:27:29.:27:31.

You don't think it will affect the debate? No. People make up their

:27:32.:27:37.

mind based on the debates. Nigel's lot and the other side are banging

:27:38.:27:41.

on about stuff. I've said all the way through, I'll vote to leave the

:27:42.:27:45.

moment someone can prove to me we'll be better off outside. The

:27:46.:27:49.

overwhelming majority, economists and business people are in favour of

:27:50.:27:53.

staying in, and it's a nightmare. You are following big business?

:27:54.:28:05.

Corporate Ken! ? Just look at the last six years... I want to come

:28:06.:28:11.

back to the president. Will the President's intervention make a

:28:12.:28:13.

difference? I don't believe it will. I wish I could take Obama just for

:28:14.:28:17.

an hour to a European Union meeting so he could towns what extent Europe

:28:18.:28:22.

and the European Union is driven by anti-Americanism. It's all about

:28:23.:28:30.

NATO, having a kind of pastiche European defence identity, the whole

:28:31.:28:34.

French idea is about elbowing the Americans out of Europe. The

:28:35.:28:38.

Americans misunderstand the whole thing so badly. We are being

:28:39.:28:42.

presented with a parody of what the US is like. Obama is not necessarily

:28:43.:28:47.

listening to the Senators, he's listening to his advisers to a wide

:28:48.:28:51.

range of experts just as the British people are listening to the

:28:52.:28:55.

scientists for the EU, the scientists are overwhelmingly coming

:28:56.:28:57.

out in favour of the EU. Tonight there was a big meeting,

:28:58.:29:02.

environmentalists for the EU. Large numbers of people. In terms of big

:29:03.:29:06.

business, the E such an organisation that can stand up to and rein in big

:29:07.:29:10.

corporate interests in a way that's very, very difficult or impossible

:29:11.:29:16.

for an individual country to do. I voted Green in 89 because you were

:29:17.:29:21.

the only Euro-sceptic party in this country, highly principled. Is it

:29:22.:29:24.

just the money that's turning the Green Party in favour? Clearly you

:29:25.:29:27.

are funded heavily from the European Union. Your European election

:29:28.:29:32.

campaign was funded by the EU. Is it as simple as that? I would very much

:29:33.:29:35.

invite anybody out there to have a look at our accounts for the

:29:36.:29:38.

European campaign or any other election campaign and they'll find

:29:39.:29:41.

that the level of funding that we have in the Green Party is on a very

:29:42.:29:45.

much smaller scale than other parties. That's because we are

:29:46.:29:51.

funded... Do you get any money from the European Union? Not to fight the

:29:52.:29:57.

election campaign. But you do get money? For our MEPs doing all sorts

:29:58.:30:04.

of work. The big development before the President arrived was the

:30:05.:30:09.

forecast. Was it propaganda or public information? It's a guess.

:30:10.:30:14.

The simple fact is, as you said at the beginning, we can't predict

:30:15.:30:16.

what's happening in the British economy next year. We can't predict

:30:17.:30:21.

what happened last year sometimes. One simple fact - we should look at

:30:22.:30:26.

the last six years of our exports to Germany. In the years before we

:30:27.:30:29.

joined the EU, they were cut in half, in the year since we joined,

:30:30.:30:33.

they have gone up 120%. That's quite telling. Those are facts.

:30:34.:30:40.

When we were out, we lost a load of our export markets and when we

:30:41.:30:48.

joined we got it back. We lost all our trade outside the EU because we

:30:49.:30:54.

put tariffs on. We cut ourselves off from the rest of the world. Hardly

:30:55.:30:59.

surprising trade with Germany increased, but their trade with us

:31:00.:31:03.

increased much more quickly. We don't invest the way they do in

:31:04.:31:10.

their industry. The Chancellor and everyone is saying, we have this

:31:11.:31:14.

wonderful deal with the European Union and without it we would risk

:31:15.:31:17.

everything. I think we have a rotten deal with the European Union for

:31:18.:31:23.

access to selling our goods tariff- free to their markets. We pay 1% of

:31:24.:31:29.

our GDP every day as a membership fee for an economy 12% of which is

:31:30.:31:36.

exports to the EU. 100% of our businesses are regulated and we have

:31:37.:31:39.

freedom of movement for 500 million people. What did you make of the

:31:40.:31:47.

Treasury document? It reflects in many ways that the debate has been

:31:48.:31:51.

shallow and focused on figures produced by both sides... You think

:31:52.:31:57.

the document was shallow. I think we all know how George Osborne has

:31:58.:32:03.

entirely changed his tone. Have you read the document? I have not read

:32:04.:32:07.

it all. So how do you know it is shallow. It is packed with quadratic

:32:08.:32:15.

equations. What I think is shallow is, how is this based on the reality

:32:16.:32:21.

of the world. Given the fact we had George Osborne who in the autumn

:32:22.:32:24.

suddenly discovered millions of pounds down the back of the sofa and

:32:25.:32:27.

then found out he did not have them... We need to have this debate

:32:28.:32:32.

on more serious grounds about what sort of country Britain is, how we

:32:33.:32:36.

relate to our neighbours, meaning things like air pollution, water

:32:37.:32:40.

pollution, wildlife. Those things do not stop at natural borders. They

:32:41.:32:47.

are all interrelated. If it is such a cataclysm to leave the European

:32:48.:32:51.

Union, why was the Prime Minister saying a few months ago that he

:32:52.:32:55.

might, if the negotiation did not go right, recommend we leave the

:32:56.:32:59.

European Union. You didn't believe that! If it is such a cataclysm to

:33:00.:33:08.

leave the EU, why has the government risked a referendum? Because they

:33:09.:33:12.

were frightened Nigel was gang to take a lot of their votes. That is

:33:13.:33:17.

probably true. The government is either being insincere or

:33:18.:33:22.

irresponsible, or both. How does the rest of the world survive outside

:33:23.:33:28.

the EU? It is remarkable, isn't it? Switzerland appears to be doing

:33:29.:33:33.

rather well. And has more free trade deals than we do negotiated on its

:33:34.:33:39.

own behalf. Is the referendum playing into Ukip's position or

:33:40.:33:46.

status? It is not doing any harm. I am pretty confident Ukip will win

:33:47.:33:50.

seats in the Scottish parliament, the Northern Irish assembly, the

:33:51.:33:55.

Welsh Assembly and in London. What about the Greens? I think many

:33:56.:33:59.

people are seeing us as anti-UKIP, which is to our benefit. If we go

:34:00.:34:04.

back to the by-election before the general election, we first heard

:34:05.:34:08.

that. The fact that we are an opposite sides in the referendum,

:34:09.:34:12.

and we celebrate the freedom of movement in the EU as enriching the

:34:13.:34:17.

possibility of our lives, as against Ukip, yes. It is late, so you can be

:34:18.:34:24.

honest because nobody is watching. Is it true that after the referendum

:34:25.:34:28.

you are going to rebrand and relaunch your party? When I was in

:34:29.:34:32.

business I work for a small firm, it happy place, which was taken over by

:34:33.:34:37.

a bigger company and became different. The whole modus operandi

:34:38.:34:43.

had to change. Ukip is basically run by volunteers who volunteered to be

:34:44.:34:47.

elected onto a NEC, and they run the party, choose the candidates, do the

:34:48.:34:52.

discipline. That was fine. We now have to have a professional

:34:53.:34:56.

management board, and I think the model where we send money, get them

:34:57.:35:00.

on the ship card we hold in our wallets is just old hat. -- get a

:35:01.:35:09.

membership card. Italy has proved a completely different approach to

:35:10.:35:13.

politics and that is where Ukip needs to go. I am going to ask you a

:35:14.:35:17.

question Natalie Bennett, which you can answer in one word, yes, no or

:35:18.:35:22.

maybe. Are you going to stand for real election as leader of the

:35:23.:35:28.

Greens? I am entirely focused on the elections. Yes, no or maybe? I will

:35:29.:35:34.

think about that after the elections, which is what the people

:35:35.:35:38.

out there listening now will be focused on. That is what we are all

:35:39.:35:42.

focused on. We should be focused on that and the referendum. Yes, no or

:35:43.:35:49.

maybe? I will be deciding after the election. I know when I am beaten.

:35:50.:35:51.

Thank you, Bob. Now, here on This Week we like to

:35:52.:35:53.

think of ourselves as TV royalty. And for many years Michael

:35:54.:35:57.

and Diane reigned supreme as the king and queen of late-night

:35:58.:35:59.

political small-talk. Benign small-screen monarchs,

:36:00.:36:01.

who embodied the very soul But now that Diane has abdicated

:36:02.:36:03.

from serious politics and joined the Shadow Cabinet,

:36:04.:36:06.

Michael is left all alone a modern-day Princess

:36:07.:36:09.

Diana at the Taj Mahal, And that's why we've

:36:10.:36:12.

decided to put the monarchy In case you missed it,

:36:13.:36:17.

Her Maj has turned 90. She's the nation's oldest ever

:36:18.:36:35.

and longest reigning sovereign. So has her longevity helped preserve

:36:36.:36:37.

the monarchy's popularity Reluctant royal or man

:36:38.:36:40.

who would be King? Wills has been following his

:36:41.:36:47.

mother's footsteps this week, but some ask whether he'll prove

:36:48.:36:50.

to be a people's prince and how much responsibility the second in line

:36:51.:36:53.

to the throne really craves. Duty can sort of weigh you down

:36:54.:36:59.

an awful lot at a very early age and I think you've got

:37:00.:37:02.

to develop into the duty role. The Prime Minister might have led

:37:03.:37:07.

Parliament's tributes to the boss on her birthday but were all eyes

:37:08.:37:11.

actually on the man who refused to sing God Save the Queen last

:37:12.:37:14.

year, Republican Whatever different views people

:37:15.:37:17.

across this country have about the institution,

:37:18.:37:22.

the vast majority share an opinion that Her Majesty's served this

:37:23.:37:26.

country and has overwhelming support with a clear sense of public service

:37:27.:37:30.

and public duty. She is certainly flying the Royal

:37:31.:37:35.

standard and Katherine Jenkins will be singing at the Queen's

:37:36.:37:38.

birthday celebrations So as an eventful life

:37:39.:37:40.

enters its tenth decade, should we all bow down

:37:41.:37:45.

and give our thanks? We are joined by Katherine Jenkins.

:37:46.:38:02.

Welcome to the programme. You are singing for the Queen again. Has she

:38:03.:38:10.

got you on speed dial? It is always such an honour and a huge thing to

:38:11.:38:14.

be asked to be part of the birthday celebrations. I have known for a

:38:15.:38:19.

year, because it has been planned for quite a long time. It will be

:38:20.:38:23.

held on the grounds of Windsor Castle. You will be singing there,

:38:24.:38:29.

in the open air? I think it will be an open-air show with the music and

:38:30.:38:33.

pageantry of the Windsor horse show. It will be quite a spectacle. Are

:38:34.:38:43.

you a royalist? I am. My mum and my late grandmother are huge royal

:38:44.:38:46.

fans. I remember going on holiday to the Isle of Wight, and the Royal

:38:47.:38:52.

yacht was going to be passing and my mum was so excited. We had to rush

:38:53.:38:55.

to the beach to be able to see this. On the horizon. Huge fans. Not long

:38:56.:39:04.

ago, in the 1990s, the royal family was under some pressure. But it

:39:05.:39:10.

seems to have escaped from that. When you look at the younger royals,

:39:11.:39:18.

who you have sunk to as well, is the future in good hands? I think there

:39:19.:39:22.

is a lot of goodwill towards the royal family, especially when you

:39:23.:39:28.

look at the work ethic of the Queen, and the dedication, the energy she

:39:29.:39:34.

puts in. My experience has always been that she is informed, has

:39:35.:39:37.

something to say to everybody and has a great sense of humour. I think

:39:38.:39:44.

that comes across. Of course, the younger royals are somebody that my

:39:45.:39:48.

generation look up to as well. Do you get to speak to her when you do

:39:49.:39:55.

the singing? When you do the Royal variety performance, all of the

:39:56.:39:58.

performers line-up and there is a brief shake hands. Does she ever put

:39:59.:40:07.

in a request? No. I surprised, as we head into the 21st-century, and as

:40:08.:40:12.

we were ending the last century republican sentiment had risen, the

:40:13.:40:16.

Queen talked about her horrible year. And yet the monarchy seems as

:40:17.:40:26.

strong as ever. I was always a Republican and in the midst of Mrs

:40:27.:40:30.

Thatcher abolishing the GLC I got a phone call from Buckingham Palace,

:40:31.:40:34.

saying that the Queen would want to open the Thames Barrier. I thought,

:40:35.:40:39.

that will Peers Thatcher. She did that. But you are still a

:40:40.:40:46.

Republican? The trouble is, what do you have in place? Do you have an

:40:47.:40:49.

election between former prime ministers, celebrities? I think the

:40:50.:40:56.

Queen has been magnificent. She has genuinely serve the country. If I

:40:57.:41:00.

was to make a case for republicanism, it is people like the

:41:01.:41:04.

youngsters. Prince Charles grew up and we read in the papers about his

:41:05.:41:09.

exam results, his early dates. If you are going to have a royal

:41:10.:41:13.

family, the kids should be kept out of that publicity. I think we have

:41:14.:41:20.

just seen the convert of a Republican, Mr Portillo. And he is

:41:21.:41:23.

following big business on the European Union. It has been an

:41:24.:41:29.

interesting evening. RU surprised by the strength of the monarchy these

:41:30.:41:35.

days? I am a bit but I do not think it has happened by accident. It has

:41:36.:41:40.

been an effort by the Queen and Prince William, who have rescued the

:41:41.:41:43.

situation into which they had got by 1997. Amongst the many remarkable

:41:44.:41:50.

things that have happened are that they have turned it around. Remember

:41:51.:41:54.

some of the extraordinary thing is the Queen has done. I would pick out

:41:55.:42:00.

in particular her role in the Irish peace process. Also as Head of the

:42:01.:42:05.

Commonwealth. You can't tell us what you are going to sing on the night?

:42:06.:42:13.

It is top secret. I will tell you afterwards. Excellent. You are going

:42:14.:42:18.

to sing for us tonight. The national anthem. I think it is apt for today.

:42:19.:42:31.

We have put the words on-screen for you, can, in case there is a

:42:32.:42:32.

problem. # You can't give me the dreams

:42:33.:42:39.

that are mine anyway # I've been lost, I've been found

:42:40.:44:06.

but I don't feel down

:44:07.:44:25.

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