08/12/2016 This Week


08/12/2016

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Tonight on this Week, Dermot Myrna Hann charts Britain's perilous

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voyage to the forbidden planet known as Brexit. Well, I have been boldly

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going where no man has gone before. Space station Westminster, a

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fact-finding mission. I will be reporting back to the mothership. If

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you set down on this planet, I cannot be answerable for the safety

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of your ship or your crew. Meanwhile, as Rome burns, is the

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European project on its last legs? Hot lot lawyer -- hotshot lawyer and

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wife of Nick Clegg flies the flag for the EU. Britain may have turned

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its back on Europe that I don't think other countries will follow

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suit. It is better to be in Europe than outside looking in.

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And what planet has Peter Doherty been on for these past few years? I

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know why I am here. You asked me to say why I am here. No, I don't know

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why I am here. This Week. The most provocative and unusual adventure

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film you have ever seen. Not. And we begin with the heartwarming

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news that, thanks to its current Brexit appeal in the Supreme Court,

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the government has, at a stroke, reduced unemployment among

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lawyers to precisely zero. Indeed, there's now a national

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shortage, with a score and more of barristers involved

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in the proceedings, plus all their solicitors, juniors,

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paralegals and legally trained bag carriers crammed

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into overspill rooms. Yes, the government's appeal

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against giving parliament a pivotal role in the Brexit process has

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turned out to be a veritable dripping roast for the legal

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profession, which means there'll be much toasting with vintage wines

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in Tuscan villas this Christmas. The lawyers inside the court have

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outnumbered the protestors outside by about ten to one,

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and even the demonstrators turned up dressed as lawyers,

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no doubt hoping to trouser a few quid in the general spraying

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around of legal fees. Much of which, dear taxpayer,

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you are paying for. So you may wonder why the Government

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is going to all your expense when, as this week demonstrated,

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it clearly has majority in the Commons for legislation

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to trigger the Brexit process, which rather makes the Supreme

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Court shenanegins moot. But don't forget that the Government

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and the Commons are also awash with lawyers and the legal

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profession knows how After all, they've known each other

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since public school and Oxbridge. So think of it as just jobs

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for the boys and it is, Speaking of those likely

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to remain under-employed even in a booming economy,

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I'm joined on the sofa tonight by two people who deserve to be

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in the dock of public opinion. Think of them as the Rumpole

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and Rumpolette of late night TV. I speak, of course, of Liz

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#fourpercent Kendall Your moment of the week? The vote in

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the Commons on Wednesday on Brexit. It was moving for me because I was

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battling away inside the cabinet to make sure we did not join the euro,

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and against the showing an agreement, always in a minority,

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described as a bustard by the Prime Minister at the time. And then I

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lived to see David Cameron, backed by William Hague, Kenneth Clarke and

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Michael Heseltine and Theresa May. And at last I see the House of

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Commons voting for, guess what, Brexit, by a huge majority. So it

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was really a moving moment for me. Were you emotional? I was. I am.

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Your moment? Number Ten is saying the Foreign Secretary's views on

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Saudi Arabia are not Government policy. Why would you expect that?

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It was not just a slap down, but a knee capping. The problem is not

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just that no one can believe that what the Foreign Secretary says is

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the Government's position, the real risk is about Theresa May's judgment

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in appointing him in the first place. We will come back to that

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later. The European Union and its

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forerunners were meant to bring Europeans together

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in peace and prosperity. When Britain voted to remain

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in the Common Market in 1975, Europe was growing fast,

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forward-looking and enjoying But in recent years the Eurozone

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in particular has become synonymous with sclerosis,

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mass unemployment, poverty in Greece, growing resentment

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against Germany and a real struggle to keep the show on the road,

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which might explain why we didn't So is Brexit the beginning

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of the end for the EU or just a case of eurosceptic

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British exceptionalism. Here's Miriam Gonzalez Durantez

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with her take of the week. The EU was founded

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after World War II. The common wisdom was that it would

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bring lasting peace and prosperity. Now, some claim that we are at

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a crucial point in EU history and that its very

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existence is threatened. The EU may need reform,

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but so do most countries The EU is one of the strongest

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economic areas in the world. With more than 440

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million consumers, it is also one of the biggest

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integrated markets. It has maintained prosperity

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while maintaining also a commitment to democracy,

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human rights and the rule of law. The economic crisis of 2008

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is still unresolved, And when compared with countries

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that have used monetary policy at will, things actually do not

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look so bad. Growth in the UK is roughly in line

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with the average in the EU, and public debt in the UK

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is actually higher than in nine From Russia to the Middle East,

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the EU faces many security threats, but as Baltic countries understand

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well, it is easier to confront those threats when you have safety

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in numbers under the EU Italy faces political turmoil,

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but with 65 governments in the last 75 years,

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they have experience in dealing with political uncertainty

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without rocking the boat. In Austria, people have chosen

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the continuity of the EU over And in France, Le Pen

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is struggling to get funding Except for Greece, none

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of the European populists have And unlike in the UK,

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they are not backed by anti-European vested interests, media

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owners and millionaires. So far, only Britain has

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closed the door on the EU. Some think other countries

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will follow suit. Our thanks to Bishopsgate Institute

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for allowing us to film in their beautiful library

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in the heart of the city of London. Miriam joins us now. Welcome to the

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programme. Is she right that the EU is not finished? I don't know. I

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think the euro is the key. I fear that whether the euro survives or

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collapses, either one is a catastrophe. If the euro is

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maintained, countries like Spain, Italy, Greece, Portugal and Ireland

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will continue to suffer, particularly the young people. Youth

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unemployment has been the characteristic. It is an irony that

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young people are supposed to support the European Union. They are the

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ones devastated by the creation of the euro, and entirely unsuitable

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organisation because it has admitted countries that were not equipped to

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be in the euro. If they try to dismantle the euro by expelling

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Greece and other countries who should not be there, the feeling

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will be that the pack of cards is going to collapse. So either route

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that the European Union takes over the euro leads to disaster. Although

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Miriam was sanguine about the economy of the European Union, it is

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pretty much stuck in the doldrums. And most countries have seen long

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periods in which most of their people have seen no increase in

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living standards. That is one of the reasons why we see, you know, a

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strong reaction, particularly in the referendum in Italy. I think Miriam

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is right that Europe, the EU and the eurozone will continue. I think

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other countries, France and Germany, have always had a stronger mashed or

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interest in the first place to be in the EU, and so did the Eastern

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European countries that came in. But there is a real risk of complacency,

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and unless Europe reforms, particularly on the economy, to

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tackle unemployment, stagnating wages, and to make sure that growth

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is more widely shared, the risk is they will still be vulnerable to

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economic shocks, and the political risks of the rising populism,

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whether from the right or the left, despite the fact those populists do

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not have the answers to the long-term problems people face.

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Would you concede that for a growing number of Europeans the EU and the

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eurozone has been an increasing disappointment? I think the EU in

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general and in particular requires reform. There is a risk of

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complacency in the EU, there is a risk of complacency in this country.

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It is true there may be issues with Europe, and we have all seen, but it

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is also true that countries like mine, like Portugal, like Italy,

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they would not have done the economic reforms they have had to do

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if it had not been because of the pressure from Brussels. I have to

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say that when you speak about unemployment, it is easy to speak

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about unemployment, but it is comparing apples with oranges. The

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unemployment of the south of Europe translates into precarious

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employment here in the UK, simply because the Labour protection is

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much higher in continental Europe than here. So the figures on

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unemployment do not really compare. Finally, it seems to me that when

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you speak, Michael, about the position of youth in relation to the

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Italian referendum, the youth generally in Europe are

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pro-European. It is very symbolic who is ready pushing for the project

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is still the young people, as we saw here, by the way. And in Italy, you

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cannot really say that vote was against Europe. You had people

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against Renzi. It is not my case to argue today that the European Union

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is going to collapse. My case is to argue that the European Union has

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taken a very bad turn in establishing the euro, that it is

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impoverishing the population, that it is increasing immigration and

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emigration, both of which are at unsustainable levels. That it is one

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of the things that has set the British people against Europe. But I

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do agree that there is a fundamental difference between the British

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attitude... There is British exceptionalism. Between the British

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attitude and the attitude of other countries. Knowing Spain a bit, even

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having a Spanish passport, I would say there is no chance of Spain

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wanting to leave the European Union. They are wedded to the idea of

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belonging. After decades of isolation, they want to sit at the

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table alongside other countries. The countries of continental Europe lost

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their democracy and institutions during World War II, during the 50s

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and 60s, and the British didn't. I think our European partners long for

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European institutions that protect their democracy, whereas the British

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just don't feel the need for that. It is a different culture.

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You cited Italy as a European success story that didn't have the

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reforms. I didn't say it didn't do the reforms. The economy there isn't

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any bigger than it was when it joined the euro in 1999. Two lost

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decades, its industrial production is back where it was in 1984, its

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banks are bust, its youth are on the dole. How is Europe of the eurozone

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been good for Italy? They'll not do the reforms... They've... The

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Italian case is the typical case of a country that is coming late to the

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reforms. Look at the situation in Ireland and in my own country, why

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is, why is Spain up to 3% growth? Because they have done it. But how

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can it be good for Europe... The union... But how can it be good for

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Italy when the economy hasn't grown since 1994? It's not so different to

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the situation in other countries. The 2008 crisis has been huge and

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many other countries that have not been part of Europe are still

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struggling with growth. It's interesting that you put it, Michael

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asked Europe has taken the wrong turn maybe and it's going to

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impoverish Europe. If you talk to lots of people in the continent,

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that is what they say about the UK. They think the UK has taken the

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wrong turn and that that is going to impoverish. The eurozone goes from

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crisis to crisis. It's the slowest growing group in the world. Does it

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not make sense for Britain to diversify and have more growing

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trade in other parts of the world? The reason we struggle with trade in

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India or China is not because we are still part of the EU, although we

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are coming out, it's because of culture, the fact that those

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countries do not want to allow us access. We could address those now.

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We are coming out very microscopically slowly. Coming out

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isn't going to... That's not true. 15 years ago, about 60% of our trade

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was with the European Union. Today it's 44%. IPSO facto, the other part

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of the trade's gone to the rest of the world. If you look at the

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figures... I do. Even if we double the trade, with the US, the Canada,

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Australia and New Zealand and with India, even if we double it with all

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those countries, we'll still trade less than with the EU today. Those

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are the figures and in many cases that has nothing to do with the

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growing population. I don't know whether Brexit is going to be a

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success or failure, I really don't. Inwant a referendum, I would much

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rather we were back where we were. The very fact that you made that

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film this evening, although you said that the idea that Europe was

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collapsing was grossly exaggerated, you had to make the film this

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evening and there is a switch in focus going on at the moment. Since

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June 24th, people have been moaning about the terrible situation we are

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in and maybe we are in a difficult situation but I think the focus is

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shifting to the difficult situation in which the European Union is and

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it's, I think the Italian referendum has put the where are centre stage

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which is exactly where it should be. The next things that may happen are

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an Italian general election, an election in France and the situation

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may simply get worse. All right. What I would say is some European

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politicians do get the need for reform. Manuel Valz in particular.

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He's about to lose. But he understands. And he's about to lose.

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Well, he's making the case that Brexit isn't just a British problem,

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that the EU needs to reform because if it doesn't meet the needs of its

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people it could collapse. I think those voices have to be heard. We

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are in this difficult dilemma here where people want to make the case

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for the EU in the eurozone. But it has to reform. The question is

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whether Germany, Germany I think is key here, because so long as

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borrowing is seen as a sin, rather than investing jobs for growth...

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You have rather glossed over the record of the eurozone, saying its

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economic performance was "unresolved". The US economy today

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is 15% bigger than it was just before the crash. The British

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economy is 8% bigger than it was just before the crash. Let's look at

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this year. Let me finish the question. The eurozone's economy is

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no bigger than it was in all that time, eight years, it's no bigger

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now than it was before the crash. Where's the success? I'm not coming

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here to defend the Europe. I'm coming here to explain that the euro

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has been a political project that's obviously made some things difficult

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because there are lots of countries advancing at the same pace.

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Nevertheless it's had positive impacts in some countries like mine.

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However, coming back to something you mentioned earlier which is the

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populism and the anti-European feeling in the rest of the European

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countries, I think it's really important to see and perhaps more

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difficult to see it from here, the populist continental Europe is very

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different to the populism here. A lot of the populism in continental

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Europe is simply antiestablishment. The population here is driven by the

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elite. This is backed by the vested interest, by the media, by the

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elites, Etonians. Very different. We have ran out of time. You did make

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that point very well in the film. I would counsel viewers that sceptics

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always underestimate the desire of the European elite to keep the show

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on the road and so you may well be right. The British elite to destroy

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it. Now, it's late, party with Keith Vaz

:20:07.:20:09.

and Sally Bercow late. But be warned, if you party too

:20:10.:20:12.

hard, you may well end up waking up on a purple sofa wearing one of

:20:13.:20:16.

Michael's shirts, wondering how it But fear not, because Pete Doherty

:20:17.:20:18.

is waiting in the wings to set us straight, as he puts

:20:19.:20:23.

bust-ups in our Spotlight. So go on then, have a Snap, Crackle

:20:24.:20:25.

and Pop, come at us on Fightbook, we'll be happy to Tweet

:20:26.:20:29.

you down in one punch. Now, it's been a tricky week

:20:30.:20:31.

for Theresa May's Brexit of dreams, which is no longer hard, or soft,

:20:32.:20:34.

or clean, but red, white and blue. Anymore of this and I suspect

:20:35.:20:38.

the Prime Minister will be Some of us are already chasing cars

:20:39.:20:43.

on the street and we have no idea For those of you who have trouble

:20:44.:20:52.

sleeping, just put this week's These dulcet, posh, so superior

:20:53.:20:56.

legal eagle tones will soon have For those of you still awake, here's

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Dermot Murnaghan with his roundup Yeah, yeah, what have

:21:02.:21:07.

we got today... Hold on, Dermot,

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we're not quite there. The only show in town

:21:30.:21:32.

this week was Brexit. Sorry, one more time,

:21:33.:21:37.

one more time, police sirens. The only show in town this week

:21:38.:21:40.

was Brexit when the UK's presence on the world stage

:21:41.:21:47.

was up for discussion. Even though Prime Minister May

:21:48.:21:49.

was on international business in Bahrain,

:21:50.:21:52.

she still found time to tell us where Brexit

:21:53.:21:55.

was on the colour palate. Sometimes people look at this

:21:56.:21:58.

as somehow the UK taking one particular model,

:21:59.:22:03.

the UK trying to take some It's not about this sort of Brexit

:22:04.:22:08.

or that sort of Brexit, it's about a red, white and blue

:22:09.:22:12.

Brexit, that is the right Brexit, Access to the single market

:22:13.:22:15.

is of course a key issue, so it was no surprise that

:22:16.:22:22.

when the chief Brexiter David Davis and the Chancellor Philip Hammond

:22:23.:22:25.

joined forces to...do you mind... to suggest that the UK continuing

:22:26.:22:29.

to pay into the EU budget for access to the single market after Brexit

:22:30.:22:33.

that that ruffled a few feathers and the key Leave campaigner

:22:34.:22:36.

and Foreign Secretary, don't call me Boris any more

:22:37.:22:38.

Johnson, he wasn't keen What David has said

:22:39.:22:40.

is that is the kind of thing that could be considered,

:22:41.:22:48.

but we are not getting into a running commentary

:22:49.:22:51.

on our negotiations. I think I've given you a pretty

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fair four-point analysis Control of borders, control of laws,

:22:54.:22:55.

control of money, the ability That's within those ideas,

:22:56.:23:01.

those very simple ideas, is a wealth of information

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about the kind of deal that we want. Are you kidding me, it's right

:23:08.:23:11.

behind you, it's that. We got a real sense this week

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of how the UK are going Their chief negotiator

:23:21.:23:28.

Michel Barnier said the whole thing could be trashed out in about 18

:23:29.:23:34.

months from the triggering The announcement

:23:35.:23:36.

came with a warning. He also said the UK can't

:23:37.:23:39.

expect an easy ride. The single market

:23:40.:23:43.

and its four freedoms, Two significant moves forward

:23:44.:23:48.

in the House of Commons this week, as MPs discussed a Labour motion,

:23:49.:23:58.

agreed a Labour motion, that the Government should publish

:23:59.:24:01.

a plan on its Brexit strategy before The Government countered

:24:02.:24:06.

with an amendment also agreed on that the House would accept

:24:07.:24:14.

the triggering of Article 50 The Government would negotiate

:24:15.:24:18.

for two years without telling us any Are you, is anybody,

:24:19.:24:27.

are any members of this House content not to know,

:24:28.:24:32.

hands up who doesn't want to know - doesn't want to know -

:24:33.:24:35.

hands up, you don't want to know. I said several times in debates

:24:36.:24:38.

the honourable gentleman's attended, towards the SNP member,

:24:39.:24:40.

I will make as much information as possible available

:24:41.:24:45.

without prejudicing our negotiating Now, Brexit was in the dock

:24:46.:24:48.

this week and it's over there at the Supreme Court

:24:49.:24:58.

where we're not, perhaps that some of the finest legal brains

:24:59.:25:02.

in Britain were discussing the issue of whether MPs should be

:25:03.:25:06.

consulted before Theresa May My case, as you know,

:25:07.:25:12.

is that the 2015 Act in effect involved Parliament deciding to put

:25:13.:25:18.

to the final decision of the people the in-out question and we do

:25:19.:25:21.

respectfully submit therefore that whether it said things

:25:22.:25:25.

or didn't say things, whether it was silent or not,

:25:26.:25:28.

it still carries real I think we all now accept the forced

:25:29.:25:32.

Parliament by reason of sovereignty The idea that ministers could revoke

:25:33.:25:40.

this fundamental change to our constitutional order,

:25:41.:25:47.

in my submission, is In Brussels this week,

:25:48.:25:51.

Boris Johnson discussed NATO is more important

:25:52.:25:57.

now than ever before. We need to be very vigilant

:25:58.:26:03.

on our eastern frontier, but also of course NATO

:26:04.:26:08.

is there to project stability Of course, one of Britain's biggest

:26:09.:26:12.

allies in the Middle East is Saudi Arabia and a tape's emerged

:26:13.:26:18.

of the Foreign Secretary, Boris Johnson, having

:26:19.:26:21.

a pop at them and Iran. The tragedy for me, and that's why

:26:22.:26:26.

you have all these proxy wars being fought the whole time in that

:26:27.:26:30.

area, is that there's not strong enough leadership

:26:31.:26:34.

in the countries themselves. You've got the Saudis, Iran,

:26:35.:26:38.

everybody moving in and puppeteering On the domestic front,

:26:39.:26:44.

the only person thinking more about trains this week

:26:45.:27:05.

than Michael Portillo was probably the Transport

:27:06.:27:07.

Secretary, Chris Grayling. Now, he pulled the communication

:27:08.:27:10.

cord on Network Rail, he said that a shake-up

:27:11.:27:13.

of the railways in England What needs to happen

:27:14.:27:17.

within Network Rail, it needs to become more

:27:18.:27:25.

of a collection of route-based businesses with local management

:27:26.:27:27.

focussing on what's best for their own line,

:27:28.:27:30.

their own passengers and commuters. Network Rail has not

:27:31.:27:33.

been focussed enough News dominated by Foreign

:27:34.:27:34.

Affairs and Brexit. The question is, at the end

:27:35.:27:39.

of the day, who will be over the moon and who will be sick

:27:40.:27:42.

as a parrot in this Hello and welcome to Portillo's Pub

:27:43.:27:45.

quiz, dedicated entirely With 195 nations to get

:27:46.:27:58.

through, pens at the ready. Question one, who is

:27:59.:28:03.

the Foreign Minister of France? Question two, who is

:28:04.:28:05.

the President of South Korea? Dermot Murnaghan, the quizmaster

:28:06.:28:16.

you don't want to meet down the pub Are we any clear on the Government's

:28:17.:28:33.

negotiating strategy for Brexit? No. We have seen a week in which the

:28:34.:28:38.

Government, for once, has been deft, converting a Labour motion which

:28:39.:28:41.

looked tricky and looked like ringing about a Conservative revolt

:28:42.:28:44.

into something of a substantial success. The Government is now

:28:45.:28:49.

committed to saying something about its negotiating position but I do

:28:50.:28:53.

see what it can say, other than that it wishes to have its cake and eat

:28:54.:28:58.

it, which the people we negotiate with will try to deny us. Could it

:28:59.:29:05.

not outline its strategic ends? It is going to have to tell the people

:29:06.:29:10.

it is negotiating with. As an example, we would like to be in the

:29:11.:29:13.

single market and we wish to control immigration. Extremely likely that

:29:14.:29:18.

those negotiating will try to deny us having those things. But that

:29:19.:29:23.

could be our position. I think probably what the Government wants

:29:24.:29:27.

to do is to set out a series of ambitions which Rob Lee will be

:29:28.:29:35.

denied to us, but which in each case Mac -- represent the maximum the

:29:36.:29:41.

Government might want to achieve. What did Labour achieve with its

:29:42.:29:46.

motion, other than to show that it was even more divided on Brexit than

:29:47.:29:51.

the Tories? I don't think that is true, actually. Credit to Keir

:29:52.:29:56.

Starmer factually getting a concession from the Government that

:29:57.:30:00.

there would be a plan. It's the first time that has happened.

:30:01.:30:04.

Secondly, I hope it has put to bed the idea that somehow MPs, who have

:30:05.:30:11.

a right and a duty to scrutinise the Government's plans, are somehow

:30:12.:30:16.

trying to block Brexit. I think many of the hardline Brexiteers are

:30:17.:30:19.

tilting at windmills there, and I think the house showed that we

:30:20.:30:23.

accept the will of the people but we want to scrutinise it. But we got no

:30:24.:30:28.

idea what the shape of the plan will be, what the mechanism will be, a

:30:29.:30:33.

white paper, a Green paper, the back of a five packet... You will

:30:34.:30:38.

remember me saying that I would like to see a White Paper on this. We

:30:39.:30:44.

still do not know whether the Supreme Court will say a motion is

:30:45.:30:49.

enough, or whether there has to be legislation. The plaintiff 's are

:30:50.:30:53.

arguing strongly that a motion carries no legal weight. Only

:30:54.:30:58.

something that can become an act of Parliament carries legal weight. One

:30:59.:31:04.

thing I would disagree with Michael about, it is very interesting that

:31:05.:31:08.

the person who seems to give away more than anybody about the

:31:09.:31:12.

Government's plans is David Davis, who has proven slightly more

:31:13.:31:15.

pragmatic, saying we might have to consider paying in to get access to

:31:16.:31:20.

the single market, that it would be inconceivable that after the

:31:21.:31:22.

negotiations Parliament would not have a vote. One thing we have not

:31:23.:31:27.

talked about is this transitional agreement, because we are not going

:31:28.:31:31.

to get this sorted into macro years, and people do not want a cliff edge.

:31:32.:31:40.

Article 50, you pack your bags and leave the house, is not the final

:31:41.:31:47.

divorce settlement. The people who matter are the people who run the

:31:48.:31:53.

big help. The heads of state. Why doesn't the Government put a short

:31:54.:32:00.

enabling Bill before the Commons? I think the Government will be

:32:01.:32:03.

reassured by what happened yesterday. Although you said Labour

:32:04.:32:08.

was divided, what struck me was how solidly the Labour Party voted for

:32:09.:32:11.

the motion which committed us to triggering article 50 by the end of

:32:12.:32:17.

March. Why so? Because even more than in the Conservative Party,

:32:18.:32:20.

Labour Party members are worried about voting against their

:32:21.:32:25.

constituents. Many Conservatives had huge majorities for Remain in their

:32:26.:32:29.

constituencies, but many Labour voters -- many Labour members had

:32:30.:32:35.

huge majorities for Leeds in their constituency. Any worries that the

:32:36.:32:38.

Government might have had about its one clause bill in the House of

:32:39.:32:42.

Commons, it need not worry now. If they get a big majority, they should

:32:43.:32:47.

not worry about the Lords even. I certainly feel that having voted to

:32:48.:32:54.

have the referendum, I have to accept that it is not just what my

:32:55.:33:00.

constituents have said. The one person, Kenneth Clarke, who has

:33:01.:33:04.

always been pro-Europe, he did not vote for the referendum Bill and he

:33:05.:33:08.

can honestly say, I'm going to vote against it and I don't accept it.

:33:09.:33:12.

Many more broke the Labour whip on that. What have you made of the

:33:13.:33:19.

Supreme Court proceedings? I think probably people will be quite

:33:20.:33:23.

impressed by the Supreme Court proceedings, in the sense that I

:33:24.:33:25.

think they are going through the arguments, trying to consider

:33:26.:33:28.

whether the Government has stepped beyond what is permitted and whether

:33:29.:33:33.

it is a role for Parliament. I was not particularly impressed by the

:33:34.:33:37.

clips we showed, in which the barristers did not look to

:33:38.:33:41.

articulate. But the process will be quite reassuring to people and

:33:42.:33:44.

seeing the proceedings televised is a good thing. If we are going to

:33:45.:33:48.

have a more powerful, American-style Supreme Court, shouldn't we also

:33:49.:33:55.

have an American style scrutiny of judicial appointments? I am not sure

:33:56.:33:59.

why you say we are going to have an American-style Supreme Court.

:34:00.:34:05.

Because it is getting involved in adjudicating on constitutional

:34:06.:34:08.

matters to a degree that the Law lords never did. I would be wary

:34:09.:34:14.

about changing to that kind of appointment system. What I take from

:34:15.:34:18.

the court proceedings is that I felt quite proud. We have an independent

:34:19.:34:24.

judiciary, considering an issue brought by citizens who are saying,

:34:25.:34:30.

our Minister choux are the decisions legal? Many countries would be

:34:31.:34:36.

jealous of that, so much of it was opaque, but I felt very proud. I am

:34:37.:34:38.

glad you are proud. Now to a new regular

:34:39.:34:41.

slot on This Week. And this week we're

:34:42.:34:43.

in the Lincolnshire constiuency of Sleaford and North Hykeham,

:34:44.:34:46.

and our Correspondent, Tim, what can you tell us? The

:34:47.:35:07.

Tories expected to win, but will it be Labour or Ukip coming second? How

:35:08.:35:13.

does it look? Yes, I don't think we will have another night of drama in

:35:14.:35:19.

this corner of Lincolnshire tonight. Sleaford and North Hykeham is not

:35:20.:35:24.

Richmond Park. This area delivered a 62% Leave vote in the referendum,

:35:25.:35:29.

and the Conservative candidate here, Doctor Caroline Johnson, a proper

:35:30.:35:34.

doctor, a consultant paediatrician, is a committed Brexiteer, so she

:35:35.:35:38.

says. The battle looks like it will be for second place. They became

:35:39.:35:43.

second in last year's General Election but Ukip are confident of

:35:44.:35:47.

overtaking Labour, coming second and heating into the Tory vote. But

:35:48.:35:52.

still some way behind the Conservatives. When will you get the

:35:53.:35:58.

result? It is a large rural constituency with lots of outlying

:35:59.:36:02.

polling stations, which is my way of saying it will be a long night. We

:36:03.:36:06.

reckon about 4am, sometime later than the result last week in

:36:07.:36:13.

Richmond Park. 37% turnout for this by-election, compared to 70% in the

:36:14.:36:18.

general election. Winter by-election is traditionally do not attract a

:36:19.:36:22.

large turnout. Most of those I spoke to on the street were more worried

:36:23.:36:26.

about Carol concerts and school Nativity is, rather than electing a

:36:27.:36:31.

new MP. Go and get some coffee, and good luck through the night. For

:36:32.:36:36.

those of you wondering why we are not doing that by-election result, I

:36:37.:36:39.

think you just got the answer. And some of us have to sleep now and

:36:40.:36:41.

then. Now, if you want a friend

:36:42.:36:42.

in Westminster, get a dog. But if you are a dog,

:36:43.:36:45.

do not under any circumstances get In politics, there's no more

:36:46.:36:48.

uplifting sight than one So it's been open season on Boris,

:36:49.:36:51.

as he goes from gaffe to gaffe. Just to heighten his discomfort,

:36:52.:36:56.

the Government has briefed that ministers should stop

:36:57.:36:59.

poking fun at Boris. For Her Majesty's Principal

:37:00.:37:00.

Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, Alexander

:37:01.:37:05.

Boris de Pfeffel Johnson... So we're putting bust-ups

:37:06.:37:08.

in the Spotlight. Would the excellent acting

:37:09.:37:19.

Prime Minister tell the House how much the European Union should pay

:37:20.:37:25.

for tariff free access The bust-up between Tories over cash

:37:26.:37:31.

for access to the European single But it isn't just Europe that's

:37:32.:37:40.

causing beef between the Blues. I'm Bob Neill, MP for

:37:41.:37:45.

Bromley and Chislehurst. Bob Neill called for Chris Grayling

:37:46.:37:50.

to resign after he ruled out a Transport for London takeover

:37:51.:37:53.

of suburban rail services. Well, I think he has

:37:54.:37:56.

compromised his position. Is he right to accuse Mr Grayling

:37:57.:37:58.

of prioritising party politics over And what about those old arch

:37:59.:38:05.

rivals, peers and MPs? Baroness Boothroyd didn't hold back

:38:06.:38:10.

this week in condemning past Prime Ministers for appointing any

:38:11.:38:13.

old riff-raff to the Upper House. The repeated abuse of

:38:14.:38:18.

Prime Ministers' powers of privilege The abolition of that untrammelled

:38:19.:38:22.

power is long overdue. Begone, I say, and I hope

:38:23.:38:26.

Theresa May takes note. I doubt the Romans would have cared

:38:27.:38:33.

very much which side you cheered. Historian Mary Beard

:38:34.:38:43.

and Brexiteer Aaron Banks had a Twitter bust-up over that age

:38:44.:38:45.

old question this week. Rock'n'roll bad boy Peter Doherty

:38:46.:38:49.

has had a few bust-ups in his time. And Peter Doherty

:38:50.:38:57.

is here with me now Welcome to the programme. Thank you.

:38:58.:39:15.

Have you had lots of bust ups? Yes, I have had a few, I suppose. I have

:39:16.:39:21.

become more diplomatic over the years, I think. As you get older.

:39:22.:39:29.

Yes. Who you think that bust ups clear the air? I don't know. Did you

:39:30.:39:33.

say something about me once in Parliament? I don't think so. This

:39:34.:39:43.

is the kind of thing, isn't it, someone says something, you absorb

:39:44.:39:46.

it, get offended, and it dissolves inside you, or it eats away at you

:39:47.:39:51.

and you react. And the bus stop clear is that? No, it adds to the

:39:52.:39:58.

long-term resentment. If you have a genuine chronic this agreement

:39:59.:40:02.

between two people, husband and wife, and they have a bust up, as

:40:03.:40:06.

you call it, it just adds to the negativity. Have you had any that

:40:07.:40:14.

you have regretted? I am a generally peaceful fellow who was not that

:40:15.:40:19.

good at fighting. A bust up does not have to be violent. What is a bust

:40:20.:40:26.

up then? Lots of bust ups are when you say something. That is what it

:40:27.:40:35.

was, yes. You performed at the Bataclan. I understand you performed

:40:36.:40:40.

with someone you had had a bust up with, someone from the libertines

:40:41.:40:44.

before, but you came back and performed together again. It took

:40:45.:40:49.

them three weeks to mop up the blood. From the Bataclan. I am

:40:50.:40:56.

sorry, I thought you meant the bust up. I did not realise you were

:40:57.:41:07.

talking about the Bataclan. When Carl's face came apart, that was

:41:08.:41:11.

because he fell over on to a sink because he slipped up. What happened

:41:12.:41:16.

at the Bataclan, which was such a terrible event, did that help you

:41:17.:41:22.

come together again? We did not play that badly. I was amazed that he

:41:23.:41:27.

turned up. It has been a gradual thing, over the last couple of

:41:28.:41:32.

years, coming together for... We were offered a lot of money to come

:41:33.:41:36.

together, initially. And then we started to write together again,

:41:37.:41:40.

tentatively. He is just starting to trust me a bit more, I think. Did

:41:41.:41:48.

you regret the original bust up? Honestly, I still haven't been able

:41:49.:41:54.

to process it. After the Bataclan gig, we had a bit of a bust up.

:41:55.:42:01.

Again? Yes. I think I called him a racist. And I offered him to go toe

:42:02.:42:07.

to toe on the cobbles. I don't know where I got that expression from,

:42:08.:42:11.

the Manchester crew. I am really embarrassed about that. I thought

:42:12.:42:15.

you were going to wheel him out at some point. Maybe he is frightened

:42:16.:42:21.

to come on. What is the biggest bust up you have had? Gosh, I don't know,

:42:22.:42:26.

really. I don't think it's been a big part of my life, really. I've

:42:27.:42:30.

had political disagreements with people. I've been called a bustard,

:42:31.:42:35.

I have been in factions and taken different points of view, but an

:42:36.:42:38.

actual bust up, I can't really think. Have you ever had a bust up?

:42:39.:42:46.

Not professionally. I am sorry, Mum, dad, but my family was very much,

:42:47.:42:50.

get it out and then everything was fine. So I grew up learning that you

:42:51.:42:55.

could say what you thought, have a row and everybody thought it was

:42:56.:42:59.

fine in the end. Actually, in politics, it is not usually a big

:43:00.:43:05.

bust up. What is awful is the backstabbing behind-the-scenes

:43:06.:43:07.

briefings. I would rather you had an argument, clear the air and got on

:43:08.:43:11.

with it. It is all the stuff in the papers that I think it's horrible

:43:12.:43:14.

and one of the nasty things about politics. Have you had many bust

:43:15.:43:21.

ups? Quite a few, actually. Nothing is going to happen now. Don't worry.

:43:22.:43:28.

Somebody showed me earlier, I was watching in the room, tensions are

:43:29.:43:32.

rising, a bust up when there is a lack of leadership. Exactly. Anyway,

:43:33.:43:40.

we have run out of time. You are on tour. We all right, yes.

:43:41.:43:44.

Now, that's your lot for tonight, folks, but not for us.

:43:45.:43:46.

We're heading to Lou Lou's for the This Week Person

:43:47.:43:48.

With all the glitz and glamour of Jeremy Corbyn's potting shed,

:43:49.:43:52.

Michael and Liz were both eliminated, as usual,

:43:53.:43:56.

by the popular vote, and the runner up was,

:43:57.:43:58.

But with blonde buffoonery all the rage this year,

:43:59.:44:02.

Nighty night, don't let the BoJo blunders bite.

:44:03.:44:12.

I would certainly like to see demonstrations outside

:44:13.:44:13.

Life expectancy in Africa has risen astonishingly,

:44:14.:44:20.

as that country has entered the global economic system.

:44:21.:44:27.

I think we got through that one all right.

:44:28.:44:39.

I certainly am the proud possessor of a beautiful,

:44:40.:44:47.

very well functioning Turkish washing machine.

:44:48.:44:52.

Can Boris Johnson stay on message for a full four days?

:44:53.:45:06.

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