16/03/2017 This Week


16/03/2017

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Listen very carefully, Michael, I will say this only once.

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There is a strange woman standing behind me.

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I've joined the resistance of This Week.

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And you know what, the far right are still donkeys

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I have eluded the enemy and stowed away on the HMS This Week.

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But the political waters are looking choppy.

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Have you got the fallen Madonna with the big boobies?

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No, I'm a British historian and I am come to talk about nostalgia.

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Ah, that is why we are in this 80s sitcom.

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Time to crack open the lovely vintage the Germans

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May you have happiness all your life.

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And let me make it clear right from the start that when I said last

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week that the self-employed were a bunch of tax-dodging chavs

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cluttering up our streets with their ramshackle,

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pollution-emitting white vans who deserve to be whacked

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with a dose of extra tax, it was obviously just my jocular way

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of saying the self-employed are the backbone of the nation,

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risk-takers, entrepreneurs, strivers, saints,

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who will never pay a penny more in tax as long as I have

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breath in my body and ink on my spreadsheet.

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I'm surprised how many of you didn't get that.

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And when I said that I'd no idea what was in the Tory election

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of manifesto until the BBC informed me, what I was clearly

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saying was that, of course, I'd read the manifesto

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But only this week did I discover that it was, in fact,

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a blueprint for government and not a work of fiction.

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I'm sure I'm not alone in making that mistake.

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Anyway today we put all that behind us and unveiled our post-Brexit

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Now it's true the launch has been beset with technical difficulties.

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Indeed if you try to go to the home page you're told

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the plan "isn't working", but that only makes it all the more

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emblematic of the May government right now.

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Speaking of those whose plans, and careers, have long been

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in tatters, and whose political prospects are indeed the stuff

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of fiction, I'm joined on the sofa tonight by two prime examples

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of the self-employed, because who else would give them a job?

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I speak, of course, of Michael #choochoo Portillo

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Your moment of the week, Michael? Mr Craig Mackey in Leigh MP for Thanet

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South, I think, has been interviewed by the police. Apparently there are

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a dozen police forces investigating possible infringements of election

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expenses. The Conservative battlebus visited 29 marginal constituencies.

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Potentially, this could be a catastrophe. It may not turn out

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that way. But if you look at the downside, there could be a very

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large number of by-elections created by this and that would be a game

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changer. In such a situation, I think the government would surely

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choose to have a general election rather than a succession of

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by-elections because there would be so many. Just a straw in the wind,

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but it is quite worrying. It is a huge story. Worrying if you are a

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Tory, great if you are a journalist. David Davis' appearance before the

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Brexit select committee. I thought that was the big story this week. He

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said the Government has made no assessment of what no deal would

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mean for Britain when we leave the EU. For me, I felt he was dismissive

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and disdainful. Sorry to say this, Michael. About the impact that

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tariffs or losing passport in rights would have on jobs and businesses. I

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think there are a lot of anxious people out there worried about what

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will happen and he did not treat them with respect. It was a well

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covered event. Last year gave us Brexit

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and Donald Trump, and two huge victories

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for anti-establishment populism. But are these both examples

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of Anglo-Saxon exceptionalism, or is the populist insurgency

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about to take continental A series of European elections

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in 2017 is putting that But the insurgents have stumbled

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at the first hurdle, with the party of Geert Wilders,

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the far-right, anti-immigrant Islamophobe who wants to ban

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the Koran and tear down mosques, coming a disappointing second

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in Holland's general election, dashing his hopes that he would

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top the poll. But Mr Wilders still gained seats,

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while the ruling centre-right party lost plenty and its coalition

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partner, the mainstream So the Dutch establishment,

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which was dragged to the right during the campaign,

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didn't have it all its own way and could take months and months

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to form a new government. Meanwhile the election caravan moves

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to France in April and the much more significant challenge

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to the established order of Here's French journalist Agnes

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Poirier with her take of the week. Something extraordinary happened

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yesterday across the Channel The Geert, you know Wilders,

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the Dutch Trump, did not become Not that we in Europe

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ever thought he would. The same way you keep telling us

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that Marine Le Pen is going to win the next presidential

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elections in France. Marine, President de la

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France, who says so? Oh, yes, British and American

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tabloids, and Breitbart, of course, the news website that pretends

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to serve the people but lies Le Pen is everywhere,

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and I think I need a drink. It has run two glowing stories

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about Marine Le Pen every day Because fear sells,

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and because there is an element, as our German friends would say,

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of schadenfreude, you know, the pleasure felt at

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somebody else's misfortune. After Brexit and Trump,

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the British and the Americans would so much want to see the French

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behave as stupidly as them. But hang on, I'm not saying

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we won't and I'm not saying we aren't capable of shooting

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ourselves in the foot, What I'm saying, however,

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is that there are two rounds. And unless half the electorate stays

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at home, which never happened The real story, my friends, is the

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rise of the centris Emmanuel Macron. Imagine that, centrism beating

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populism in the ballot box. I raise my glass to

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the revolutionary centre. Merci, Maman le Mot,

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for providing our French filming locations today,

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just by the Seine at London Bridge. Are you a modern Marie Antoinette?

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No one expected Geert Wilders to be Prime Minister but people did thing

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you might come first. But he was never going to be Prime Minister or

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even in government. Everywhere mainstream parties are in retreat,

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the Greek Labour Party, wiped out, the Dutch Labour Party, crippled

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yesterday. The governing Socialist will not make the second round.

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Neither will the main French centre-right party, but everything

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is OK because of Emmanuel Macron? I am not saying everything is OK. We

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should do another film about the collapse of the left in Europe. The

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Social Democrats left? Well, Emmanuel Macron is a social

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democracy, you know. But Labour or the left are in disarray everywhere

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and that is the elephant in the room. That is why Marine Le Pen and

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Geert Wilders are so scary. But we shouldn't be so scared. There is

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this self fulfilling prophecy. Impending doom. We should stop being

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so scared because that is how things happen. But maybe we have to

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recognise what is going on and the danger that could be there. Even

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where mainstream parties cling to power, as they are in Holland, they

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do so by tacking to the right. Look at the Dutch Prime Minister. He is a

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moderate centre-right guy, and he took out adverts telling immigrants

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if they did not like Holland they should go home. He even banned

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Turkish ministers from campaigning in the Turkish referendum. They have

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moved to the right, away from the mainstream, because there is such a

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threat to them. Yes, it is true. But it is not new. Marine Le Pen has

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been around, and her father, of course, since the mid-90s. She will

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do much better than her father. Absolutely, and the shock will be

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for her to lose by only 20%. He got 18%. So what am I missing? It seems

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to be quite scary if you are a centrist. It will be scary. Why

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should not say she is not going to be elected, but I really feel this,

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you know, coming from America and Britain especially, you don't want

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to be alone in your misery with Brexit. I don't think that the

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motivation. We are wondering whether there is, as I said, whether this is

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Anglo-Saxon exceptionalism, or something is happening across the

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western democracies. How would you categorise, weak or strong, the

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European insurgency? I think the mistake made in your film, which is

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pierced -- mistake made by the establishment in Britain and

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America, is to think what happened in Brexit and with the election of

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Trump is that the place was overrun by racists and Islamophobics. Many

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of the people who voted for Trump were simply fed up with 80 years of

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socialism as they saw it, and they wanted lower taxes and business to

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flourish. And a lot of people who voted for Brexit, they included two

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chancellors of the exchequer, Field marshals. Some of these people were

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distinguished figures, including former Cabinet ministers like me. To

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try and say because there was Brexit and Trump we expected Marine Le Pen

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to win, or Geert Wilders to win, they are not connected. In fact, I

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am pleased with the way things went in Holland because it begins to

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destroy the myth that what is happening is a link between Brexit

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and Islamophobia or racism. There is no link whatsoever. It is great that

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the Islamophobics not doing well. However, you have made the point

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that Francois Fillon is not going to figure in the election and

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Hollande's party is not going to figure at all. That is the

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distinction in France. Should we be worried, concerned, or is Agnes

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right that it will come right in the end? I don't underestimate or write

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off the far right in this country, or across continental Europe. There

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is no far right in this country. I believe Ukip in many of the things

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it has said and done... Far right? What would that make the BNP? The

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poster that Nigel Farage stood in front of saying Britain was at

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breaking point, for me, was beyond the pale. But the question is not

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that they are there and to be taken seriously, it is what is your

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response. And what I take the lesson from Emmanuel Macron in France is,

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he is not ignoring the argument and is not pandering to it but taking it

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head-on. And he said, if you are shy, you die. He is standing up and

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fighting for what he believes in. Let's wait and see. He doesn't even

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have a party. Agnes, respond. I agree with Liz. If indeed Emmanuel

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Macron wins, it is a complete change of the political class. Because at

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the moment it is recruiting what are going to be his MPs, perhaps. We are

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talking about people who have never done politics, no professional

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politicians. If he wins, it is the end of the statute -- the

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establishment as we knew it. The establishment will still control the

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assembly. He does not have a party. He will not sweep the assembly with

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his people. He will be governing without the support of Parliament.

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It will be a complete renewal. You should not underestimate what is

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going on in France. The story is not so much Marine Le Pen. She is here.

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But it is the recomposition of politics, and that is what makes it

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exciting and perhaps hopeful. She will come from Macron on the

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right on Islam, on immigration, globalisation... And the left as

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well. She will come from the left on economic policy. We don't know if

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MacRon can take a punch -- Macron. We don't know what candidate he will

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be. First debate in a couple of days' time. He had the guts to break

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the mould. He hasn't. He stands for the French establishment. EU

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integration, open borders deficit reduction and globalisation. They

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may be right. It doesn't break any mould. That is what French

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governments stood for. He broke the party mould. He is not pandering.

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That is the problem. We saw it in this country where if you move

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towards your opponents on the far right, they just move further away.

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You don't solve a problem by pandering to it. You take it head

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on. Sglp do you have high hopes for Mr Macron? I would have fairlile

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high hopes he will win the Presidential election I think he's a

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completely unknown quantity. He is an establishment figure. Soft left

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stuff. I think, in a - if I understand France, in a hierarchcle

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country, this 39-year-old who came from nowhere will find it difficult

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to prevail against the civil service and the organs of the state used to

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running the country. We will see. Chirac got elected o on a reform

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programme. Massive majority in the parliament. He was gone in six

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months. Question yes. You know, Fillon is doing exactly the same

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thing. I'm going to reform. We doubt he will. Actually, Macron, as you

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say might be the new Hollande. Is France able - Unreformable? Exactly.

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That is another question. Fascinating election, isn't it? Yes.

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Most interesting French presidential election. Unpredictable. Thank you.

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Good to he soo you again. -- good to see you again.

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Now, it's late - emergency Cabinet meetings with the BBC's

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Well, somebody has to tell ministers what's happening!

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But for those of you hoping that Laura would make

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an appearance this evening, she sends her apologies.

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She's been asked to replace Theresa May at the weekly audience

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The Queen needs to know what is going on too.

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Then she's off to Wembley to replace Stormzy

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But don't feel too neglected, because waiting in the wings

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is author and historian Kate Williams, here to put

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So stop your Faceblubber, wipe your Twitter tears, we are,

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as always, all about the Snapcheer here.

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Now, folks, this whole Scottish independence malarky has been one

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The SNP aren't going back on what they said at all.

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When Nicola Sturgeon said that the last independence

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referendum in 2014 was a once in a lifetime event,

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she meant a Glasgow lifetime, which means indyref2

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Here's Andrew Rawnsley with his round up of the political week.

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The waters look choppy, the scurvy crew are revolting

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and the captain can't even say whether we'll reach safe harbour

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But I guess we should give this to the Brexiteers,

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This week's tale was the suggestion that Brexit will all be plain

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sailing, just so long as we get a new Royal yacht to replace

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It is my view that it would indeed add greatly to the soft

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power of this country, the soft power which is

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already very considerable, if we were to have such.

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It has always provided, I know this is part of my honourable

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friend's prospectus, that the new Britannia should not be

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Crow's nest, can you see any trade deal?

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The political week seemed to start out quite well for Captain May,

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she could even break out a ration of rum to celebrate

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as the Brexit Bill passed through Parliament unamended.

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The Government and the Prime Minister have been crystal clear,

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the people of the United Kingdom have decided to leave

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The Government will seek to implement this decision in a way

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that's most beneficial to both the United Kingdom

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Some thought Article 50 might even be triggered this week,

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but then Nicola Sturgeon fired her torpedo into the hull

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of the Government by demanding a second referendum

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By taking the steps I have set out today, I am ensuring that Scotland's

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future will be decided not just by me, the Scottish Government

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or the SNP, it will be decided by the people of Scotland.

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With Labour all at sea and the Government steering

:20:44.:20:59.

towards a hard Brexit, that the majority of Scots don't

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want, the nationalists think there may never be a better

:21:03.:21:05.

opportunity to persuade Scotland to go solo.

:21:06.:21:07.

Mrs May has worked that out for herself.

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If she ever concedes to a second independence referendum,

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she certainly doesn't want it happening at a time

:21:14.:21:19.

when the Brexit voyage could be at its most perilous.

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Right now, we should be working together, not pulling apart.

:21:24.:21:26.

We should be working together to get that right deal for Scotland,

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As I say, that's my job as Prime Minister and so,

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for that reason, I say to the SNP, now is not the time.

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Right, time to plot a course for Brexit.

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Here's the chart, where on earth are we sailing to?

:21:44.:22:01.

In these stormy waters, praise the Lord, that at least one

:22:02.:22:04.

member of the Cabinet has a reputation as a safe pair of hands

:22:05.:22:07.

Faced with a mutiny by Tory MPs, Philip Hammond had to abandon his

:22:08.:22:22.

plan to demand more national insurance contributions from some

:22:23.:22:24.

This Government sets great store in the faith and trust

:22:25.:22:32.

of the British people, especially as we embark

:22:33.:22:34.

on the process of negotiating our exit from the European Union.

:22:35.:22:39.

By making this change today, we are listening to our colleagues

:22:40.:22:44.

and demonstrating our determination to fulfil both the letter

:22:45.:22:46.

and the spirit of our manifesto tax commitments.

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The Budget unravelling, the Chancellor humiliated,

:22:58.:23:02.

salty language being exchanged between Numbers Ten and Eleven

:23:03.:23:05.

and no less than a dozen police forces investigating allegations

:23:06.:23:07.

that the Conservative Party broke electoral law.

:23:08.:23:13.

PMQs presented Jeremy Corbyn with a golden opportunity to boost

:23:14.:23:16.

the morale of the Labour crew by hammering the Prime Minister -

:23:17.:23:18.

It seems to me like a Government in a bit of chaos here.

:23:19.:23:27.

A Budget, a Budget that unRAFels in seven days.

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A Conservative manifesto with a very pensive Prime Minister

:23:38.:23:43.

on the Prime Minister saying there will be no increase.

:23:44.:23:47.

A week ago, an increase was announced.

:23:48.:23:49.

I normally stand at this dispatch box and say

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I won't take any lectures from the right honourable gentleman.

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When it comes to lectures on chaos he'd be the first

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I hate to tell you this, but I think we could be adrift.

:24:04.:24:20.

The crew of the HQS Wellington caught up with Andrew

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He is the beating heart of the Scottish nation. He may not be the

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hero we deserve. I speak of Jon Nicolson. Welcome back to the

:24:43.:24:47.

programme. Hello. Nicola Sturgeon wants another Scottish referendum in

:24:48.:24:52.

2018-2019. Theresa May says there can't be one until we know the terms

:24:53.:24:55.

of the Brexit deal. What happens next? Well obviously there is

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something of a stand off, isn't there? The chaos we have seen this

:25:01.:25:13.

week at Westminster with David Davis. That wasn't my question. What

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happens next? I don't normally do that. What happens? She has got some

:25:19.:25:24.

cheek. What happens next? Well, I don't think she can stand against a

:25:25.:25:27.

second Scottish referendum. Next week it will be passed in the

:25:28.:25:32.

Scottish Parliament. There was a clear manifesto commitment in the

:25:33.:25:36.

SNP's manifesto that if we were pulled out of Europe against our

:25:37.:25:39.

will we would hold a second referendum. Can you imagine the rage

:25:40.:25:43.

that the Brexiteers would have felt if they had to go to Brussels and

:25:44.:25:49.

ask for permission to hold a Brexit referendum? Brussels isn't part of

:25:50.:25:53.

this country, Scotland is? Scots feel themselves to be a country, as

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you know - No they feel themselves to be a nation. And a country and a

:25:58.:26:03.

nation. This will be the first time that Westminster has ever overruled

:26:04.:26:06.

the wishes of the holy Road Parliament if they try and do it. I

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mean - The argument is not about the referendum, I suggest. It's about

:26:14.:26:17.

the timing. Even if Nicola Sturgeon got her timetable it would take 18

:26:18.:26:20.

months to unravel Scotland from the UK. That was what was planned in

:26:21.:26:26.

2014, if you had won. So you are leaving the EU no matter when the

:26:27.:26:31.

referendum is because you can't unravel Scotland quickly enough

:26:32.:26:34.

before Britain leaves the EU? What we have been told by David Davis,

:26:35.:26:40.

haven't we, is that 18 months from now there will be a deal on the

:26:41.:26:44.

table. He hopes. That is what he said to us. Right. There has to be

:26:45.:26:51.

unless there is to be complete chaos - We need six months, don't we, for

:26:52.:26:56.

all the parliaments of the European Union to pass the You need 18 deal.

:26:57.:27:00.

Months minimum to get Scotland out of the UK? What, as I understand it,

:27:01.:27:06.

Mrs May is saying, is that Scots should be presented with a deal

:27:07.:27:12.

before they vote. Now, that seems to contradict what the Brexit Secretary

:27:13.:27:15.

says. He says there will be a deal for the all the European

:27:16.:27:18.

parliament's to see in 18 months. There might not be. You know Europe

:27:19.:27:22.

goes down to the wire? I do know that. Who is right. Mrs May? We

:27:23.:27:27.

don't know until we get there? Or the Brexit Secretary. Is the Prime

:27:28.:27:32.

Minister playing with fire by not conceding a second referendum on

:27:33.:27:36.

Nicola Sturgeon's timetable? Well, what I heard Mrs May say was this

:27:37.:27:40.

was not the time. There is nothing, she has not said anything about

:27:41.:27:43.

there not being another referendum. Which I must say I think is rather

:27:44.:27:49.

mag man muss? Really? It was only two-and-a-half years ago that the

:27:50.:27:53.

Scottish people last voted. The last time the Scottish people voted they

:27:54.:27:57.

voted to be part of the United Kingdom. One of the consequences

:27:58.:28:00.

whether there is a referendum or not is a matter for the United Kingdom?

:28:01.:28:06.

Ruth Davidson promised us if we stayed in the United Kingdom. I'm

:28:07.:28:11.

answering your points. I kept quiet during your recent monologue. Mrs

:28:12.:28:15.

May has said nothing at all about there not being another referendum.

:28:16.:28:19.

What has been quite significant, I think this week, is that although

:28:20.:28:23.

it's alleged by Nicola Sturgeon that this is being industryingered

:28:24.:28:26.

because we've decided to leave the European Union, she now says that

:28:27.:28:29.

she's not in anyway committed to reenter the European Union. Now, if

:28:30.:28:34.

that isn't a magnificent piece of ill logic, I don't know what it is.

:28:35.:28:39.

Is it not guaranteed that if Scotland was independent you would

:28:40.:28:42.

apply to join again? We would. Definitely? We would. We want to be

:28:43.:28:49.

in the European Union. What about the EFA? There are routes into the

:28:50.:28:52.

European Union. We would want to be in the European Union. I think one

:28:53.:29:02.

of the significant and in the noticeable things is the changing in

:29:03.:29:06.

attitudes in the capitals of Europe. The European leaders weren't that

:29:07.:29:11.

keen on us splitting away. They saw us as the pod boys trying to break

:29:12.:29:17.

up a state. I have been in Berlin recently. Who is in favour? I spoke

:29:18.:29:23.

to the chair of the Select Committee, the Treasury Select

:29:24.:29:25.

Committee and the EU Select Committee. Was he in favour of

:29:26.:29:33.

Scottish independence The EU Select Committee Chair said Scotland will

:29:34.:29:36.

regain entry into the European Union more quickly and more easily than

:29:37.:29:40.

any other applicant in history. The chair of the Treasury Select

:29:41.:29:45.

Committee said to me Scotland has a sympathetic ear in Germany. But you

:29:46.:29:50.

are conceding what you denied in the last referendum, is that you would

:29:51.:29:53.

have to reapply? It being loos likely. You wouldn't concede it last

:29:54.:30:00.

time. I I don't think you asked me. I asked plenty of Scottish

:30:01.:30:02.

nationalists. The Scottish National 's manifesto

:30:03.:30:11.

for the Holyrood election said they reserved the right to call another

:30:12.:30:15.

referendum if there was a material change in Scotland's circumstances.

:30:16.:30:21.

Brexit is a material change. I think people are sick of division. That is

:30:22.:30:27.

my sense of this. It was such a divisive campaign last time. We have

:30:28.:30:34.

had the EU campaign on top of that. And people, I think, don't want to

:30:35.:30:38.

go back to that situation. That's why we are going to be voting

:30:39.:30:44.

against, in the Scottish parliament, against a second referendum. But

:30:45.:30:49.

would Mrs May be right to deny a second referendum until the Brexit

:30:50.:30:54.

deal is done? It couldn't happen until then, so people have a genuine

:30:55.:30:59.

choice. The difficulty for Nicola Sturgeon is that actually many

:31:00.:31:03.

people who voted yes to independent, about a third, actually want to

:31:04.:31:09.

leave the EU. And the split between those in favour of independence or

:31:10.:31:13.

not has not changed since the Brexit vote, and she wants to make it the

:31:14.:31:16.

winning argument but I think that may not be the case. Quickly,

:31:17.:31:22.

because we have time in months to come to go through this, but if and

:31:23.:31:26.

when there is a second referendum, will the SNP be able to tell the

:31:27.:31:30.

Scottish people what the currency of an independent Scotland would be?

:31:31.:31:36.

Yes, I believe so. What would it be? That has not been announced. As you

:31:37.:31:41.

know, Andrew Wilson has a commission on this at the moment. And will you

:31:42.:31:46.

tell us what tax and spend you would do to get the fiscal deficit,

:31:47.:31:52.

currently 10%, down to the EU's 3% limit? This is also a matter Andrew

:31:53.:31:58.

Wilson is looking at at the moment. So we don't know about public

:31:59.:32:03.

finances, the currency, what deal it would go back into. You are asking

:32:04.:32:07.

people to make a decision on the basis of this? He is saying they

:32:08.:32:11.

will know at the time of the referendum. We shall see. Our

:32:12.:32:16.

damaged is Phillip Hammond by this National Insurance business? David

:32:17.:32:24.

Cameron described Mrs May as submarine May because she lurked

:32:25.:32:29.

under the waters. She seems to have fired a torpedo effectively at the

:32:30.:32:32.

Chancellor and I would say he is listing to port. How damaged is

:32:33.:32:37.

Jeremy Corbyn in his response to the Tory crisis? The response I would

:32:38.:32:42.

like to have seen us make is that Philip Hammond has failed on reform.

:32:43.:32:47.

We have to sort out the fact that we have more people who are sold to

:32:48.:32:51.

employ than on the minimum wage, more self-employed than will work in

:32:52.:32:54.

the public sector by the end of the parliament. Any decent sick pay,

:32:55.:32:58.

maternity pay and holiday pay, and we need to sort out the tax system.

:32:59.:33:03.

We need reform. He has flunked it on reform and he has boxed himself in.

:33:04.:33:08.

We have ended with a ridiculous situation where the Chancellor,

:33:09.:33:11.

forget talking about public finances with what is happening on Brexit,

:33:12.:33:16.

but he has boxed himself in on tax, boxed and self in on spending on all

:33:17.:33:21.

these different departments, and what we need is reform. Reform of

:33:22.:33:25.

the public finances, our public services, and to make sure that we

:33:26.:33:29.

get a decent tax take an proper protections for the self-employed.

:33:30.:33:32.

He has failed on reform and that is the problem. It illustrates the

:33:33.:33:38.

Government's weakness on a relatively minor matter, and a

:33:39.:33:43.

government that face not minor matters which we have been talking

:33:44.:33:48.

about in Scotland and Brexit, too. If you were sitting in Edinburgh

:33:49.:33:52.

like Mrs Sturgeon, or one of the European leaders, you would think, I

:33:53.:33:55.

can negotiate pretty toughly with this government and it crumbles. It

:33:56.:34:02.

was such an amazingly quick about turn, but I had my head in my hands

:34:03.:34:07.

watching Jeremy Corbyn, with an open goal, failing to score. I was

:34:08.:34:11.

thinking, I think the problem with Jeremy Corbyn, who I think is a very

:34:12.:34:16.

decent man, is that he is just not used to debating because his whole

:34:17.:34:20.

political history he has preached to the choir, spoken to fellow

:34:21.:34:24.

travellers. And he just doesn't seem to have the verbal dexterity to

:34:25.:34:28.

stand up in the Commons and fire up when he needs to and be sharp. I

:34:29.:34:33.

know it is immensely frustrating for his supporters throughout the

:34:34.:34:37.

country. Indeed it is. Thank you. Good to see you again.

:34:38.:34:40.

Now, dear old Michael has been having a bit

:34:41.:34:42.

and it's been taking its toll on the rest of us.

:34:43.:34:47.

Every night this week he's been calling me around

:34:48.:34:49.

four in the morning, clearly under the influence

:34:50.:34:51.

Through the incoherent mumbling, often drowned out by the Thomas

:34:52.:34:55.

the Tank Engine theme tune playing loudly in the background,

:34:56.:34:57.

he rambles on about Diane leaving him for Jezza.

:34:58.:35:00.

So to help him with his heartbreak we've decided to put nostalgia

:35:01.:35:02.

# What happened to the world we knew?#

:35:03.:35:21.

On Commonwealth Day, the great and the good celebrated global

:35:22.:35:23.

connections formed when Britain ruled the waves.

:35:24.:35:28.

Such a pleasure to be here and really

:35:29.:35:32.

Is Brexit about returning to these halcyon days?

:35:33.:35:40.

On Tuesday, the Prime Minister seemed to think so.

:35:41.:35:42.

We will be a strong, self-governing, global Britain.

:35:43.:35:48.

With control once again over our borders and our laws.

:35:49.:35:55.

Or is it actually the Remainers who long for

:35:56.:35:57.

On Monday, Lord Tavern seemed to pine for a time

:35:58.:36:02.

when Parliament, not the people, ruled the day.

:36:03.:36:05.

The House of Commons has now, in effect, abandoned the

:36:06.:36:09.

principle of parliamentary democracy, and has taken the view

:36:10.:36:11.

that the referendum verdict is sacrosanct

:36:12.:36:12.

They have to obey the will of the people.

:36:13.:36:25.

Meanwhile, the Donald spent Wednesday looking backwards for

:36:26.:36:27.

And we will make America great again.

:36:28.:36:44.

Historian Kate Williams spends her days studying

:36:45.:36:54.

So are we living in an age of political nostalgia?

:36:55.:37:13.

Happy memories for Michael. Kate Williams joins us. Welcome back to

:37:14.:37:21.

the programme. We are in a bit of an age of nostalgia. It has had a

:37:22.:37:28.

comeback, hasn't it? Definitely in industry but particularly in

:37:29.:37:31.

politics. Nostalgia for certain parts of history. World War II

:37:32.:37:36.

features very heavily. We saw this throughout the referendum campaign.

:37:37.:37:41.

My jaw Farage's Brexit bus was playing the great escape music.

:37:42.:37:46.

About the prisoners of war who escaped the camp. There was a lot of

:37:47.:37:52.

talk about Churchill and whether he would be Leave or Remain. People

:37:53.:37:58.

were comparing Nigel Farage to a blitz defensive bomb. We often talk

:37:59.:38:06.

about our history but we always remember the bits we want to

:38:07.:38:09.

remember. The pony on the walls, Trafalgar. We don't remember things

:38:10.:38:14.

like the Opium Wars, the Anglo Dutch wars in the 17th century. But in the

:38:15.:38:17.

Rijksmuseum, there are pictures of the Anglo Dutch War everywhere

:38:18.:38:22.

because they inflicted quite cataclysmic defeats on us. It is

:38:23.:38:27.

nice sometimes to wallow in nostalgia but it is always

:38:28.:38:31.

selective. Yes. The nostalgia bubble of what we like to remember. They

:38:32.:38:35.

are times when Britain was winning and when we engaged in fair play. I

:38:36.:38:40.

guess you could include America, with Mr Trump's victory and

:38:41.:38:45.

supporters, but is this a particularly British phenomenon at

:38:46.:38:49.

the moment, this nostalgia? Do we see it in Europe as well? It is a

:38:50.:38:56.

strong 21st-century trend, because we have not quite defined the

:38:57.:39:00.

21st-century. But we definitely see it in America. Make America great

:39:01.:39:05.

again. I hear he has patented keep America great for his next campaign.

:39:06.:39:11.

So he is obviously expecting to achieve it pretty quickly. Do you

:39:12.:39:18.

think it is part of a reaction against globalisation, against

:39:19.:39:22.

modernity, people feeling, for those who feel the world has not gone

:39:23.:39:27.

their way, nostalgia is attractive? I think so. Certainly in America

:39:28.:39:34.

there is a lot of must Alger for the 1950s, for the 1950s high school,

:39:35.:39:39.

when America felt that the world power. But not nostalgia for

:39:40.:39:50.

segregation. This is it. Donald Trump says make America great again

:39:51.:39:54.

but it is a very selective vision. But that is very powerful and it is

:39:55.:39:57.

working in America and I think it has worked. History has figured

:39:58.:40:02.

heavily throughout the referendum campaign. Mr Johnson compared you --

:40:03.:40:10.

the EU to Hitler. Are you nostalgic about anything, may be times when

:40:11.:40:17.

Labour was winning elections? 1997 when we started winning elections.

:40:18.:40:22.

That was a forward-looking election. It was. Change can be frightening

:40:23.:40:29.

and there is a tendency to think you can stop it, but you cannot stop the

:40:30.:40:37.

invention of technology, or Chinese expansion. The question is can you

:40:38.:40:42.

see is change and make it work for most people. That is when you win

:40:43.:40:46.

elections, and I certainly do miss that. What are you nostalgic about,

:40:47.:40:55.

Michael? Power, influence? No, I am completely relaxed about all that.

:40:56.:41:02.

You have us now. Of course I think history explains Brexit. The

:41:03.:41:06.

continental experience of the 20th century was coming as, fascism,

:41:07.:41:10.

invasion, the destruction of democratic institutions and the rule

:41:11.:41:14.

of law. The British experience was the survival of Parliamentary

:41:15.:41:19.

democracy and its institutions. So our European partners feel insecure

:41:20.:41:23.

and want European institutions to guarantee security. We don't have

:41:24.:41:28.

that feeling at all. They had strong reasons to come together for their

:41:29.:41:34.

national identity. Ours was essentially an economic reason. We

:41:35.:41:38.

join for economic reasons. We were a basket case at the time. You are

:41:39.:41:43.

right, it was not integral to our national identity. Are there times

:41:44.:41:49.

when nostalgia comes to the fore, as at the moment? Yes, when we struggle

:41:50.:41:56.

to define our future we start to look intensively at the past. We

:41:57.:42:00.

have seen quite a lot of it recently with enthusiasm for Empire 2.0, we

:42:01.:42:06.

are recalling the time when Britain ruled three court is of the worlds

:42:07.:42:12.

population. And our vision that we created a benign empire, whereas

:42:13.:42:16.

many who were part of it would disagree. We see nostalgia

:42:17.:42:20.

functioning quite heavily. It often functions heavily in dictatorships,

:42:21.:42:26.

too. Pol Pot might be the most extreme example. We will see how

:42:27.:42:31.

long this particular period of nostalgia lasts. What are you up to?

:42:32.:42:37.

Finishing a book about the 1930s. In the United Kingdom? The United

:42:38.:42:43.

Kingdom and America. Writing hard. That's your lot for tonight,

:42:44.:42:45.

folks, but not for us. We're off to Lou Lou's

:42:46.:42:48.

for the Jeremy Corbyn Search Ever since his game-changing

:42:49.:42:50.

triumph at PMQs this week, the Labour leader has been

:42:51.:42:53.

worryingly quiet, so we're spending our evening cross

:42:54.:42:55.

referencing any reports of stolen manhole covers with his

:42:56.:42:58.

potential whereabouts. If you can hear us,

:42:59.:43:00.

Jeremy, please come back, We've even laid out some

:43:01.:43:02.

of your favourite Peruvian dates in the shape of a heart in the hope

:43:03.:43:08.

of luring you to turn up. Don't let BoJo's raw

:43:09.:43:12.

sexual magnetism bite. MUSIC: Take My Breath

:43:13.:43:21.

Away, by Berlin. On last week's Let's Sing Dance,

:43:22.:44:04.

there was musicals... It looks a bit like lads run out of

:44:05.:44:07.

budget on an Amsterdam stag night.

:44:08.:44:14.

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