The Future of Mandela's Party This Week's World

Hello, welcome to This Week's World, the show tasked with bringing global

thoughts to Saturday oaf noon television with a cast of big

thinkers. We have the editor of Vice News. And the GEO strategist,

redrawing the world map along 21 century themes.

And we are in conversation with Amartya Sen, the Nobel Prize winner,

trying to escape the title he hates, the mother Theresa. And we ask him

what he thinks of London's superrich and has President Jacob Zuma

squandered the legacy of Nelson Mandela? The man scribed as the

conscious of South Africa, Desmond Tutu, thinks that it is time for him

to go. Does the ANC agree? So, Jonathans aren that will is the

Commission editor for Africa. What does this matter now? This

transitioned to democracy and it was an inoperation to much of the world.

22 years, the economy is grinding to a halt, going over a country, facing

a debt downgrade and a President who is frankly, not in the model of

Mandela. He has been criticised by the constitutional court, he has a

party that is riffen by factional differences, what has happened in

the 22 years? Thank you. They both fought in justice, they

were both imprisoned on Robben Island, yet the legacy cannot be

more different. Mandela gave Africans their freedom, how will

President Jacob Zuma be remembered. The ANC is the oldest

liberation party in Africa. Founded just two years

after South Africa was united into Demonstrations against

the South African Government's The ANC is banned shortly

after the Sharpeville massacre of 69 black people,

and a radical Nelson Mandela forms its military wing

Umkhonto we Sizwe. There are many people who feel

it is useless and futile for us to continue talking

peace and non-violence. A year later, Mandela is arrested

and put on trial for treason and sentenced to life in Robben

Island. Large crowds gather to watch

the accused being driven away After 27 years in jail,

Mandela's released, given the Nobel Peace Prize and goes

on to become South Africa's first black President,

advocating reconciliation. To be faithful to the

Republic of South Africa. ANC support peaks at

nearly 70% of the vote. Charismatic, popular Zuma

is his deputy. June 2005, Zuma is fired

after he is linked to fraud involving his financial adviser,

and charged with corruption. Separately, he is also

acquitted of rape. After a bitter contest,

he is elected party President, and moves against Mbeki,

forcing him to stand down. In 2009, Zuma becomes President

of South Africa. But ANC support starts

dropping and rivals emerge. Zuma's key ally, Julius Malema,

starts his own party, the EFF. And the once white Democratic

Alliance gained black support. The last few months have left

Jacob Zuma embattled. With allegations that he allowed

controversial businessmen, the Gupta brothers,

to influence political decision. The constitutional court found

he used Government money Now it looks like 783

corruption charges against him Media claims that the stretched

police budget was used to buy ten luxury vehicles for

President Zouma's five wives. In South Africa, the ANC

and democracy are synonymous, so despite the controversy around

President Jacob Zuma, the ANC is still winning elections,

but for how much longer? We went on a journey around

the country, to find This 66-year-old woman says Zuma

has changed her life. And that is why the majority

of poor South Africans keep voting for the ANC,

but the upcoming elections This is the mayor of one

of the local municipalities. The country is having

elections in August. We asked if people should

still vote for the ANC. People are accessing who are not

accessing it before. The reports of division

within the party in a party that seems to be failing

to run its own internal affairs? The ANC is a people's organisation,

it has to listen to the people. But it is here in the rural

areas where Jacob Zuma's You are looking at the

President's private home. It is said to be one of the most

expensive houses in the country. It has become a symbol of reckless

Government spending, a lack of accountability,

and sheer corruption. The President's home has

been his biggest headache. The scandal he just

could not shake off. And if the ANC decides to cut him

lose, that sprawling homestead Young people against apartheid,

and now it is the youth, the born free generation,

those born after the end They want free education for poor

students, something the ANC promised This is Rhodes University,

a historically white university. It has changed over the years

and has become more mixed, but black students in 2016 have launched

a fresh wave of protest, they say they are still being financially

excluded from attending prestigious This is not just a story

about Rhodes, but something that has resonated at universities

across South Africa. Black students say their parents

are still financially unable to afford for them to attend

universities such as this one, This woman is part of the born free

generation, but says oppression Our generation is not going to be

the one that says we will vote for the ANC no matter what it does,

we are the ones who say only if the ANC does something that

works, if it doesn't work We deserve more, we deserve better,

and I would accept something like this, if it was coming

from a white Government. That has always regarded me

as a lesser human, but for it to come from an ANC Government that

fought so hard for us to be regarded as black people,

to do the things it does to us, which were being done to us

by the apartheid Government, that is too deep and the pain,

the pain, when it Next, we visit Limpopo,

a province key to Anger boiled over here recently,

although the protests were around Government decisions on

local planning. The residents burned down

more than 20 school, I've covered a lot of stories

and visited a lot of and urban areas but I don't think

I have ever seen anything like this. You can still smell the ash,

and over there, you can see some books that are still

burning, it is... Eric, 74, has lived

here all his life. He tells me he is heartbroken

about what has happened here. In my life, in my life,

I don't think I would say, I can see another thing

more than this one. You think he would have done

something about the situation? Because this is, it

can't be like this. Now, 22 years after the end

of apartheid, this country's heart fought and young democracy

is being tested. So, with South Africa's democracy is

tested, does suma have to go? I spoke to the ANC's Treasurer, the

man closest to Zuma and asked for his assessment. In March this year,

the Supreme Court, decided that President Jacob Zuma decided he had

violated the constitution through his use of public money. A terrible

moment for your country and your party? That issue was relating to

the powers of the public protector. This was an issue not as clear

before as it was... It was pretty clear to the public wasn't it? He

spent money on building his houses, he built an amphitheatre, a swimming

pool with public funds? There were things that went wrong with this

one, imparticular the nature with the supervision and the

specifications and the price, we are clear that those things went wrong

and needed to be attended to. When the constitutional court was ruling

they reaffirmed the recommendations of the public protector and said

there must be repayment of some of the stuff and the ministers

reprimanded. That is happening. But you know there is pressure on

President Jacob Zuma from all sides to resign now? The day you get this

pressure from the opposition parties, you must look at yourself.

So the robust dispensation, the opposition, they have a right to say

whatever they wish to say. The matter must be together with when

you are talking with the Parliament, they making a ruling, some are happy

with it, some are not happy. But you could never say such things about a

minister or leader of government and survive, today you can say anything

you want to say. The constitution protects you. That is a strength.

You can say what you want to say but respect and defer to the

institutions that are to deal with the issues, your views are one

thing, what the institutions decide they are another thing.

But you have to listen, that at vice comes from friends like the South

African Communist Party, a long-term ally of the ANC who say that the

court's ruling amounts to action, now imperative, otherwise continuing

loss of moral authority, political paralysis and fragmentation of our

movement will continue. That is the way it is going. If Zuma does not

step down, the whole movement lies in ruins? It is not only about Zuma

but a whole issue of a number of issues. Looking at the statements

they relate to a decision taken in the general coup sill in October.

Is it the moment when you see how scared the markets are right now and

how low the rand is, how fragile the economy is to say: We will give you

confidence by clearing up our political system. That is where we

have to start? The call for the President to resign is something

that happens in many countries when you have got an economic strain in a

country. Greece next door, it had three

elections in 18 months and a Prime Minister elected two times. The

issue is once you have an economy, depression of sorts, people will

target the President, they will target the ruling party, they will

target the government as they feel that something is wrong, it is done

by that group. Therefore, that is what they expefkt. But you can't

push the country to further instability by taking actions that

could create more problems. You have to pull people together. You need to

become more united, to turn the corner and deal with issues of what

you change. As far as we are concerned we believe that there is

something credible and positive that South Africa has done. I think that

South Africa must be given credit for it.

If people are asking you whether the ANC lost credibility, it lost when

it set out to do, then isn't it right to say we have to sacrifice

one man because the future of the ANC is more important?

If Zuma did go, you would say the ANC could survive and flourish? You

would look back and look at Nelson Mandela, there has never been a time

when the South African President who comes from the ANC has not been

criticised heavily. Nelson Mandela was taken to court. He never caught

100% of the South African vote. He got 69% of the vote, at the time,

and I can guarantee you if he had continued he would not have got the

same amount. But it has gone backwards. It has 34% unemployment,

double that when you look at youth unemployment. The gap between the

richist and poorest is wider than ever. When the UK had 1%, how much

did you lose? When China, had the recession, more than five million

jobs China lost, America, when they went down when the real problem

started how many jobs were lost? How many times did the Government have

to stabilise the banks and they didn't call it nationalisation, they

put money in. How many times did it happen. Why should it be different

if it happened in South Africa? The same thing happens all over the

world. If it is South Africa it must be different. 23 years of democracy,

South Africa must be given credit. Thank you very much.

If the ANC loses the next election the man most likely to be South

Africa's President. The party the Democratic Alliance is the biggest

in opposition, it is shedding its reputation for being party for white

liberal. Black voter disillusion join its ranks, he joins us now,

warm welcome to the programme. Thank you for joining us. You heard from

the treasurer who says that Jacob Zuma will survive this? It shows the

fact that Jacob Zuma is no longer an exception to the ANC. He has

captured the entire organisation, in fact the leadership of the am NC now

exists to serve Jacob Zuma. So, it is in fact becoming more and more

so, that it is not just about the turn vial of Jacob Zuma, it's a

question of how quickly can we get rid of the ANC? This is no longer

the party of Nelson Mandela, this is a party that has changed.

Fundamentally. Now it has become as what former President Mbeki

described as an I noble parasitic organisation. I think the symptoms

thereof are starting to become more and more evident. If it's a

parasite, why isn't your party cutting through? We are. You can

recall and we are governing a major city as in the city of Cape Town,

the province or the state that Cape Town is in, in that space we are

showing more than anything our capability if being able to govern

and unemployment is on the decline there. We are showing profound

growth. If you look at the number, as reflected in the last elections

in 2014, we took the ANC from 64% to 53%. Our party has grown now, to

become the most credible alternative for South African and alternative

from the ANC. So we are the alternative. We are the only party

South African can look to for change. I am confident as I sit

here, that not only in real numbers of real substantive growth but in

people, and the increase in our membership shows that we are growing

and we growing across all sectors of society. Yet the truth is, that

there is you will recognise a loyalty to the ANC because of

Mandela that goes way beyond party politics, it goes to the fabric of

the free country itself. That is almost impossible to break for you,

isn't it? It is a very significant thing we have someone like someone

like President Manila who is a fairly strong person ear, --

Mandela. People respect him. What is also become clear is that, the ANC

is busy on a project of undermining his legacy. And what we are starting

to see is that more and more people are saying, yet, we honour our past,

we honour Nelson Mandela but we want to look for a future. 8.9 million

South Africans cannot find work in this country, and in fact, when you

even interrogate that even more, 60% of that, are young people. These are

young people who some of them have lived in an ANC Government, yet they

haven't experienced a true fruit of freedom. It is that generation of

South African gruet we have to present a future Chard. -- youth.

Whereas -- few char towards. If you look at the numbers as recent as ten

years ark South Africans would have felt we were heading in the right

direction. More and more now, more and more people are starting to feel

like we are not heading in the right direction, and the economic

indicators are there, the governance indicators are there and seriously,

the corruption issue is starting to dismantle, that legacy of President

Nelson Mandela. You need a substantial proportion of the black

vote do that, and for many, black South African, that may seem

treacherous. I want to reemphasise the fact that it is getting less and

less so. Many black South Africans have an appetite for Mandela's

vision of a non-racial party. They can see that the ANC is spewing off

messaging about saying if you are black you must be in this party, if

you are white you must be in this party. Whereas they there are still

South Africans who say I am still attracted to a vision only the DA is

articulating of a South Africa for all race, a diverse South Africa.

Yes, we do need a substantial part, I am not here saying to anybody,

that it is going to happen in the next, in these immediate election,

but what we have learned about liberation movements, even with

great and powerful leader, strong leaders such as Nelson Mandela, is

that over a period of a 30 year window they lose legitimacy with

people because they fail to deliver on the most basic fundamentals, we

see big man politics playing themselves out in Africa. We are

seeing more and more of this race mobilisation and it has become an

arsenal that the ANC is using more, which is indication of a desperate

party, there are is more numbers coming onboard and a diverse group

of people who say they are not selle for the polarising vow, we believe

it is the best vehicle to take South Africa forward.

-- settling. Jonathan rose that will was listening to that. Do you think

the opposition is right where they say they could spell the end of the

ANC now? Or has it got a long way to go in power? A lot of rural voter,

older voters see the ANC as the party of liberation and the arty of

Nelson Mandela, so I think we will see the opposition making gains and

one will see them making further gains in 2019, but I don't think

this is the end of the ANC by a long shot. Is it the end of Zuma. That is

the challenge, the ANC is, you know, deeply divided at the moment. It is

divided between a group of people who are happy to go along with the

Jacob Zuma vision of the party, which, he is turning into a

patronage machine. The serious part of the ANC needs to make up its

mind, does it want to pursue this man, not to the end of the party and

in the immediate term, but, you know, over the longer term, yes,

this is a turning pointed for the ANC and it has to choose which way

it wants to go. Jonathan, thank you. Now it is some time for the story of

the week and some you may have missed. This time the week in

hashtags. Time for the world's week in hashtags with help from our

friends at BBC trending. I stand with hate speech has been trending

in the US. This is not in fact as shocking as it might first seem.

Reacting to a crackdown on hate speech by social media sites, users

have been Miking the point stifling free speech is bad. Not even agreed.

Try beating me. Lightly. In Pakistan the council of Islamic ideology

advised the Government that e. Lightly. In Pakistan the council of

Islamic ideology advised the Government that husbands should be

allowed to "Lightly beat" their wives.

In response, Pakistani women have been rallying behind the hashtag,

outlining how they would WLINE In response, Pakistani women have been

rallying behind the hashtag, outlining how they would respond if

someone tried to "Lightly beat them." I will make sure it is the

last thing you ever do in your pathetic life.

No gulag for Putin. Twitter cancelled this parody account. Cue

outrage, before too long the account was reinstated. Time to celebrate.

Finally, this one has taken off again. Get us out now. A protestor

tries to burn down the EU flag but because of regulation it is flame

proof. Let us chat to our panel now.

Rebecca Nicholson is with us. Lovely to have you both here. You have been

looking at the world in maps and the rise of nationalism in particular.

Indeed. Europe is ground zero for this some might say, it has more

separatist movements than any continent in the world. You have

been hearing about Scotland and Cataluna, many people may not know

that Venice and Sardinia have had self determination movements as

well. There are varying degrees of their push to independence. The ones

I have mentioned have not been allowedtor, Italy and Spain have

been suppressing the effort, but they are become morgue and more a

autonomous, a what their plans include is as soon as they would

become independent the first thing they would do join the EU. It is

fascinating while we are sitting about talking about Brexit, here are

the here movements that want to split way to join the EU. Just as a

point of fact, the EU is expanding. There are more countries that are

lining up to join the EU. So it is interesting, within the same

continent, within the same cultural sphere you have different

perspectives. Europe is bucking the trend compared to other parts of the

world. Rebecca, drug, you will talk to us about drugs. Yes, Legal high,

There was a big survey conducted over the course of 12 years in the

United States, and one of the findings was that young people

aren't smoking cannabis to the extent that perhaps their parents

were or that might have been expected, because the US legalised

medicinal use in 1996. They have been rolling out state by state a

broader attitude shall we say towards smoking cannabis, and, yes,

the finding is that young people really aren't taking it up as much

as would have been thought, which is incons forecast to Europe, the

European drugs survey, -- contrast, it measures attitudes towards drug

consumption in Europe, and it very much not the case there, drug use

doesn't seem to be declining in any way, and in fact it is becoming more

complex, because of so-called legal high, which are now in the UK,

illegal highs once again. But they have been made illegal thanks to the

psychoactive substances ban, act, which has banned anything in the UK,

now that has a psychoactive effect on the mind, so there was a

dangerous moment at the beginning of discussions about this in bill form,

when tea and coffee almost became banned in the UK because nobody

thought that caffeine counted as a psychoactive drug when of course it

has an effect on the mind. Somebody has probably got a pay rise just in

time We could have been a different nation had our tea been taken away.

Another story is Disruptive technology, we are seeing Saudi

taking a hold. Whether it is sovereign wealth funds, there is a

lot of cash out there borrowed at low interest rates and is looking

for the big disruptive companies to invest in that have reached n the

case of uber-an enormous scale in a short amount of time. Uber-wants to

acquire larger fleets of released vehicles, their companies,

Governments such as Saudi rareia providing the capital to buy up and

to release out to Uber- these vehicles, if you choose to become a

driver you don't need your car you can release one at low cost or for

free, it will be subsidised by Goldman Sachs and Saudi Arabia and

the other investors the and released at low cost or for free, it will be

subsidised by Goldman Sachs and Saudi Arabia and the other investors

the and released to you by Uber-. Is your a sense that the western

Governments are going to start getting nervous about ueper now?

They are very nervous about them. This is the next chapter. I won't

say a nail in the coffin. It's the reverse. They are win morgue cases

or situation or confrontation, with Governments than it is losing, you

know, here in Europe there is a tough line that is taken because of

the influence of regulators and taxi unions and so forth, but generally

speaking round the world it is gaining and gaining market share on

a daily basis. Rebecca, brings us to my no link at all favourite story.

The vegan cafe bombarded by sausages. This is in Georgia, and I

didn't realise there would be a vegan cafe necessarily in Georgia

but there is. Protestors this week threw sausages on to the plates of

horrified diners which is a funny story and led to several amuseums

headlines but there is a more sinister undertone in it was far

right nationalists attacking the cafe and there had been reports that

people had been in the cafe weeks before asking if it was frequented

by LGBT customers. So political... It was, and it turned violent

because throwing sausages on to a vegan's plate may well turn violent,

but yes, slightly sinister undertones to what appeared to be a

comical headline. Now it's time to think again. Our

short strand where film-makers give their spin. This one is about fear.

Is it wrong to be scared of terrorism? Today we hear a lot about

the politics of fear. Fear... Terrorism... Attacks against

the wet. That is not new.

The only thing we have to fear is fear itself.

We think of fear as something toxic, dangerous, to be avoided or

repressed. It is true, irrational fear is the fear of terrorist

attacks, it can have damaging consequences. By being so afraid of

terrorist atrocities, we overstate the danger that they pose to our

societies, therefore we behave irrationally, from allowing fear to

contrain the way we travel and live to imposing draconian security

measures and to spending trillions on military adventures meant to make

us feel secure. But in the wet, the chances of being kid by a terrorist

attack are very small indeed. In reality, people are more likely to

be killed by heart disease, complications resulting from obesity

or just every day domestic accidents, meaning it would be more

rational to invest more heavily in medical research, than in endless

security infrastructure. We have to ensure that fear is not simply a

tool, used by those who want to insight irrational hatreds and

prejudice. We need to reclaim the politics of fear.

I am joined in our studio by Amartya Sen.

One of the world's leading intellectuals, economists and

philosopher. Here is his background. Amartya Sen was born to a Bank of

England alley family. So moved by the deprivation he saw growing up,

he wanted to help. The his work earned him a Nobel Prize in 1988. He

wanted to help poverty to improve conditions for the poor. Rejecting

the notion of GDP as the best measure of wealth and well being, he

helped to create the UN development for the human index.

Amartya Sen, welcome to This Week's World.

We've seen the emergence here in London of a global rich.

The gap, it seems has never been wider of those

The existence of rich people as such is

not something that I find in itself an objectionable thing.

I think it could be good that in the democratic

debate there is a lot which is just anti-rich,

What sort of rhetoric are you hearing that

I think by and large, I think Bernie Sanders has done a

great deal to burden democratic American discussion.

On the other hand, in it, the tone, which could be seen as

being emphasising the punitive aspect of dealing with the

super-rich, rather than the supportive aspect of making the

lives of everyone and the poorest much better.

I think Bernie Sanders has raised a lot of interesting

At this time I would wish that the battle lines were

I think Bernie Sanders, has really made

change in democratic politics which I applaud

and would like to see, but

I think that the time for him is to move on from there.

judgment it is quite nice to watch Trump,

even though he is scary too, so it is an exciting time.

I fear we like to have some excitement to see what is going on!

One of the debates we are having, currently is about national identity

and how we see ourselves here in terms of Brexit, EU referendum.

If you take a view, which seems to be easy to take,

that it is possible to

have a strong British identity along with

a certain amount of pride in

If you think about everything Britain

did, for example, they did have a war,

The big things that happened immediately

after the war with the NHS, the welfare state, and in that, the

British have been very innovative, not only

drawing on the richness of

their own ideas but they were drawing on Karl and Marx

and Bismarck who had all written about the

There was no contradiction between Britishness

with the acknowledgement of a European presence in one's life.

Do you think that Britain could flourish under Brexit?

The argument that Britain can flourish better

And I'm surprised to see how many economists agree on that, usually

Yanis Varoufakis said last week economists get everything.

We have now all predicted that Brexit will be bad,

why does anyone listen to economists?

I like Yanis a lot but I have to say I don't

think it is the case no-one saw there was a crisis coming.

They did not know when it would come but

there was a lot of discussion as to how unsustainable the prosperity of

That's an easy argument - can Britain do better

It doesn't mean there would be a disaster,

a famine, but it will do

The main problem is to deny a heritage

which has made Europe what

The British and the French maybe in the imperial days, fighting

in different parts in Africa and in my own country,

India and so on, yet they were drawing on similarities of

thought which crossed the channels all the time.

So I think if one misses out, the way European culture

has interacted with each other, then one

is missing out a lot of the

But people often say Norway did not join the European

Not joining is different from quitting.

Quitting, the jilted suitor is never comparable

And you think there would be revenge on the jilted suitor?

I don't think there would be revenge but there

would be disrespect and all kinds of nice English words for it,

I would have to get my little flossry of Shakespeare to see

I would have to get my little glossary of Shakespeare to see

how many different ways you can express

revenge but which has the absence of love in it

That is it for This Week's World. We asked last week, is Putin trying to

break up the EU? It has become the most watched video on a site. One

watching was Russia Today, they put out their own version.

See what you think. What is Putin accused of?

Weaponising Marine mammals. Russia plans to spend $at that,000 on five

Bottlenosed dolphins. Moscow is silent on the issue.

It's home to a million people at any one time,

burns around ?150 billion worth of jet fuel