02/11/2017 Thursday in Parliament


02/11/2017

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Hello, and welcome to Thursday

in Parliament, our look at the best

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of the day in the Commons

and the Lords.

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Once again, the issue of harassment

looms large in Westminster.

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We will work with any colleagues

across the House to make sure that

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we seize this opportunity to get it

right once and for all.

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MPs are told the Brexit impact

studies, which were the centre

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of debate on Wednesday,

will be made available

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as soon as conceivable.

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And are you desperate

for a copy of the bible

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of parliamentary procedure?

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The people of this country are

demanding it be made available

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without having to buy a copy of the

book.

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But first, MPs were back

at Westminster a little over 12

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hours after the surprise news

that the Defence

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Secretary had resigned.

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Sir Michael Fallon said his past

behaviour may have "fallen short"

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of the standards expected

by the British armed forces.

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The new Defence Secretary was named

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as Gavin Williamson,

who had been in charge of party

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discipline as Chief Whip.

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He's been described as a rising

star, who's trusted by Number Ten.

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As Gavin Williamson was settling

himself in at the Ministry

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of Defence, in the Commons the issue

of harassment was still

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a main talking point.

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At her weekly question session,

the Leader of the House again

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broached the subject.

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This has been a difficult

week for Parliament.

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But it has been even harder

for those who have come

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forward to report their experiences

of inappropriate behaviour,

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harassment or abuse.

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Their experiences are

why we need to change.

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As I said on Monday,

it is a right, not

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a privilege, to work

in

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a safe and respectful environment.

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The Prime Minister has written

to all party leaders,

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and I'm pleased to say they have

all agreed to meet

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to discuss a common,

transparent and independent

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But a change of culture

could take longer.

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That must be done by

education and training.

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Every member, every employee,

should go on an equality

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training course.

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For new MPs it could be part

of the induction process.

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Existing members of staff

should also undergo this.

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There are outside

organisations who do this.

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Will the Leader

of the House confirm

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measures for the House and ensure

that the equalities and human rights

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commission have the resources to

support this education and training?

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Can I congratulate the Leader

of the House for her

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leadership that she has shown

on the sexual harassment issue?

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We will work with her

to put together this

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independent grievance procedure

so that everybody will have a safe

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place to raise these complaints.

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It is encouraging to see

people now coming forward,

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and firm and decisive

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action being taken.

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Does she agree with me this

is a real opportunity

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to effectively tackle the in-built

patriarchal hierarchy in this

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institution and the unsavoury

entitlement culture that still

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pervades these corridors of power?

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Any review should carefully consider

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other legislatures and what the HR

processes, hiring processes, and

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staff grievance processes of other

legislatures around the world are

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and we can maybe learn from them?

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My honourable friend

is raising a very

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interesting point and of course as

we look at how best we can improve

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taxpayers' value for money, at

the same time as using best practice

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from around the world in HR

processes, we will of course look at

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other legislatures,

and in particular

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regard to resolving

the

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issue around keeping

people safe at work

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it would be essential

that we

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look at what is done elsewhere.

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On the issue of

standards, I am deeply

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concerned about the bullying

culture within Parliament.

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It is an issue that was

dismissed by Mr Speaker

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when I previously have raised it

with him, determining it

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to be a woman's issue.

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It clearly isn't.

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This is vital that in this

opportunity that we address the

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issue of bullying and that we bring

forward mandatory training for

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everyone in this House.

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Can I say I absolutely

agree with the honourable

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lady, and will happily work with any

colleagues across the House in

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making sure that we seize this

opportunity to put things right and

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get it right, once and for all,

and that there is nobody left out of

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that.

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So all political parties,

those with no political party, all

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those who work in this place,

and who come here to help us,

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as perhaps temporary work

placements,

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interns, and so on, so that we get

this right, once for all.

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The Brexit Secretary David Davis has

said the Government intends to be

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"as open as we can be" over

the release of its

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Brexit impact studies.

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On Wednesday Labour used an arcane

parliamentary procedure to pass

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a motion calling for them to be

released to the Commons

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committee on exiting the EU.

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The 58 studies show the potential

effects of Brexit on different

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industrial sectors.

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When will the papers be handed over?

The Right honourable gentleman was

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present for yesterday's debate. I

said that we would respond

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appropriately and we will do as soon

as possible.

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A Labour MP raised the issue

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with the Brexit Secretary.

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Quoting Conservative

backbencher, Jacob Rees-Mogg.

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Does he agree that the papers must

be given to the Select Committee, or

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does he not trust the Select

Committee?

I missed a very good

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debate yesterday. I have already

spoken to the chairman of the Select

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Committee. He sends his apologies

for not being here today. I am

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organising to talk to him about how

we handle confidentiality of the

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documentation or handover. I will

reiterate what was said by my

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honourable friend, these documents

are not some sort of grand plan,

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they are data about regulations and

markets of individual sectors, and

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of course we will be as open as we

can be with the Select Committee.

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But later the shadow Leader

of the Commons pressed

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for a definite date

for the release of the studies.

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The minister yesterday said members

of the Government are first and

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foremost parliamentarians, but they

don't want to listen to Parliament.

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He said, in the cool light of

tomorrow we will revisit exactly

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what was said in Hansard. In the

cool later today the Minister got up

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this morning and said, in due

course.

It is accepted that the

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motion passed by the House yesterday

as binding and the information will

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be forthcoming, but as has been made

very clear, it is the case that it

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is difficult to balance the

conflicting obligation to protect

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the public interest through not

disclosing information that could

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harm the national interest and the

public interest, whilst at the same

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time ensuring that the resolution

that the House passed yesterday is

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adhered to.

Deeply unsatisfactory,

that has brought shame on this House

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once again. There is no doubt that

this is binding and I am grateful to

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see the leader of the host

confirming that today. To we

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therefore need today is a clear and

an ambiguous statement from the

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Government that that accepts what

was decided last night, without

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qualification. Just hand the papers

over the committee. If it does not

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do this, as you said, Mr Speaker,

the Government will be in contempt

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of this House. But that happens we

will be bringing proceedings to hold

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them to account on that very basis.

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Well, a short time later,

peers asked if the impact

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assessments would also be made

available to the House of Lords

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European Union Select Committee.

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David Davis has appeared before us

on the European Union Select

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Committee three times since the

Brexit fought and on more than one

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occasion he has promised parity of

information for as and also the

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committee in the House of Commons.

We have now published 20 reports and

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there are more in the pipeline,

therefore we are in a high state of

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knowledge about sectoral issues. Can

I ask the Minister to go further in

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saying he will have a discussion

with our chairman about things, but

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actually to undertake that we will

receive the same information as the

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committee in the House of Commons?

As I said, we still need to have

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further discussions with the

chairman of the Brexit Select

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Committee in another place. We will

of course reflect further following

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those discussions on what

information we will want to provide

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to comply with the motion. I have

undertaken to have a similar

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discussion with the chairman of the

committee in this place. I do not

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want to go further than that at the

moment.

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Lord Callanan.

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You're watching Tuesday

in Parliament, with me, Mandy Baker.

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If you want to catch

up with all the news

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from Westminster on the go,

don't forget our sister programme,

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Today in Parliament,

is available as a download

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via the BBC Radio 4 Website.

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Prosecutors in Madrid have jailed

eight sacked members of Catalonia's

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regional government over their role

in October's disputed

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independence referendum.

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Spain has been gripped

by a constitutional crisis

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since a referendum on independence

was held on October 1st in defiance

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of a constitutional court ruling

that declared it illegal.

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In the Commons, a Plaid Cymru MP

asked an urgent question

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about the situation.

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In this situation the UK Government

has a responsibility and an

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opportunity.

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Firstly it must do all it can

to ensure the safety and

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security of UK citizens

living in Catalonia.

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Secondly, as a leading

European power, member

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of the Council of Europe, of the EU,

of Nato, and the United Nations

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Security Council, this is happening

in our neighbourhood.

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Thirdly, the UK Government has

recent experience of

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an independence referendum carried

out here in Scotland largely by

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agreement.

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We have some advice to offer.

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And of course, the hard-won peace

agreement in Northern Ireland,

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rests partly on the opportunity

for all to have their say in a

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referendum.

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In the debate on Catalonia

on the 10th of October,

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the minister replying

said that no request

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for advice had been made

by

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the Spanish government and none

offered by the UK Government.

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I ask that that offer be made.

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Mr Speaker, I do not

share the honourable

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gentleman's view of how Britain

should take an interest in the

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internal affairs of Spain.

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It is an internal matter.

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It is a legal matter.

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In the same way as we held

an independence referendum, it was

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within the law, whereas in the case

of Spain it is not.

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In respect of UK citizens,

I believe I am right in saying

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that we have had no reported

consular problems

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and I hope that remains the case.

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We are currently in a very

dangerous position.

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The future of Catalonia

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has been turned

into a binary choice.

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That is a false choice,

an impossible choice, between on the

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one hand, a unilateral declaration

of independence, and on the other,

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direct rule from Madrid.

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I do not believe that either

of these choices offers

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a satisfactory solution

to this

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crisis.

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And I do not believe that either

choice is what the majority

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of Catalans or Spaniards

actually want.

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I believe that what the majority

want to see is a peaceful,

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sensible dialogue

between the parties to try

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and find a resolution.

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That is what the Socialist party of

Catalonia supports and the Socialist

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party of Spain.

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We support our sister

parties in that endeavour.

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But what we are currently seeing,

both in the Government of Spain, and

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the Government of Catalonia,

is far from peaceful and sensible

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dialogue as it is possible to get.

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We call on both sides

to step back, to ease the

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confrontational rhetoric

and heavy-handed tactics, and start

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listening to what the majority

of people in Spain and Catalonia

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actually want, which is peace,

dialogue and an end to division.

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What is the UK Government

doing to promote this?

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Or does Brexit suck such life

from our ability to make

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any influence in Europe

that the honest answer is not a lot?

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I agree with the second

part of the right

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honourable lady's response,

which is as usual, not a lot,

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which is that this was illegal,

and against the

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rule of law.

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But I do however disagree

with her in the way she portrays

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this as a choice.

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This is not a binary

choice, as the right

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honourable lady describes.

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It is a binary choice

between upholding the

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rule of law or not.

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MPs have urged the Government

to offer sanctuary to more

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unaccompanied child refugees

in Europe - in time for Christmas.

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Concerns were raised about children

living in the "Jungle"

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migrant camp in Calais,

which has since been cleared.

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Under the Dublin III European

Agreement the UK accepts refugees

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who have relatives in Britain.

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In another scheme,

the UK promised to take

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children who'd arrived

- alone - in places such

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as Greece or Italy.

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MPs had hoped that 3,000

children would be resettled,

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under what's called the Dubs scheme.

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But the figure so far is 200

and ministers say the UK can only

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accept a further 280 youngsters.

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In Calais, still, children

are sleeping outdoors.

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At the mercy of the elements and,

dare I say, the police.

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Because the official shelter

that the French government have

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provided can only have 60.

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In Greece, over 1800

children are waiting

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for space in such a shelter.

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And, when they make it,

they'll actually find

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it is actually a disused prison.

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In Italy, the situation

is even more chaotic.

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Whilst I understand our ability

to influence local arrangements

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in those countries is limited,

we do have a responsibility to set

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clear parameters with our foreign

counterparts to allow them

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to rapidly identify every child

who might be eligible

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for Dubs or Dublin.

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She said the remaining 280 places

under the Dubs scheme should be

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filled as soon as possible.

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Can we aim for the end of the year?

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Call me sentimental,

but can we aim for Christmas?

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But this debate

isn't just about Dubs.

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I'm also seeking reassurance

on what happens to Dublin III once

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we leave the EU and its legislation.

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Despite textbook policy

suggesting our domestic asylum

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legislation should already allow

unaccompanied child refugees to be

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reunited with their wider family,

their grandparents, siblings,

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uncles, aunts, in practice

this is not happening.

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What the concern is today is that

Britain is still falling short

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on what it can do for these children

and it is nine-year-olds sleeping

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in bushes, in Calais,

sleeping without shelters,

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in Greece, in Italy that

are paying the price.

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These are our children

to take responsibility for,

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to work with the Greek authorities

to work with the

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Italian authorities.

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The minister is shaking his head.

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Is he really saying he can be proud

of the country that looks

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at children sleeping under

the bushes without proper shelter

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and care and says it's

somebody's else's problem,

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nothing to do with us.

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I understand that honourable members

of this house who, like me,

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are deeply concerned

about the plight of all refugees

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across the whole wide world,

50 million people have been

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displaced by conflict.

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Yes, we've taken 3000.

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But what is the right number of

children to take if it's not 3000.

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Is it 30,000?

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Is it 300,000?

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Should we take all the children

across the whole of Europe?

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Or just children who have

a connection to Britain?

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And I think the right policy,

is that we should do our bit

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particularly on reunification.

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I don't agree that we can be

responsible for all the refugees,

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all the children

across the whole of Europe.

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We can't take in every child.

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I'll tell you why.

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I get complaints from my

constituents in Kent that we have

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about a quarter of the unaccompanied

asylum seeking children

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in the whole of this country.

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And they are concerned

about the pressure on public

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services that that places on Kent.

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The Minister said the UK

was working with France

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to implement the Dubs scheme.

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We do work closely with France

to deliver and transfer 480

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unaccompanied children from Europe

to the UK under section 67

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of the 2016 immigration act,

quite the opposite of what some

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members this afternoon said

about that process having stopped.

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It hasn't.

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It never has.

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It is still open.

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Will he then agree now to contact

local councils across the country

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and ask them what further places

they could provide under the Dubs

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scheme for next year.

As I've just

said, the court has outlined that

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the process used is lawful. Children

have arrived in recent weeks from

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France and we've been working with

Greece as well for that safe

0:17:540:18:00

transfer of eligible children to the

UK and Rishi expect further

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referrals in the coming weeks.

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He added that the UK couldn't

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simply remove children

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from other countries -

it had to respect their sovereignty

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and child protection laws.

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Next year it will be the centenary

of the first British

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women to get the vote.

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It was in 1918 the Representation

of the People Act was passed,

0:18:180:18:21

allowing women over the age of 30

who met a property qualification

0:18:210:18:24

to have a say in General Elections.

0:18:240:18:26

The Government has already

established a five million pound

0:18:260:18:29

fund to support projects

to mark the anniversary.

0:18:290:18:31

Have the government got

any more broad ideas,

0:18:310:18:37

both here in Parliament about how

they will celebrate the role

0:18:370:18:40

of women in public life

over the last 100 years,

0:18:400:18:43

perhaps to encourage

more to come forward.

0:18:430:18:47

Well, on that last point

the government will certainly be

0:18:470:18:53

thinking about how they can

celebrate the role of women

0:18:530:18:55

both in Parliament and more

broadly in public life.

0:18:550:19:01

A former Conservative cabinet

minister was in mischievious mood.

0:19:010:19:05

Would we take the opportunity

of the centenary to reflect

0:19:050:19:07

on the fact that the bending

government refuse to give women

0:19:070:19:10

the vote because they were worried

that they would lose the votes

0:19:100:19:14

the votes of the men.

0:19:140:19:16

My noble friend is

absolutely correct.

0:19:160:19:19

Lady Williams.

0:19:190:19:21

The Shadow Northern Ireland

Secretary has criticised

0:19:210:19:23

the Prime Minister for not taking

a greater role in brokering

0:19:230:19:26

a deal to restore

power-sharing at Stormont.

0:19:260:19:29

Northern Ireland's executive

collapsed in January over

0:19:290:19:32

the handling of a botched

renewable energy scheme.

0:19:320:19:35

Since then, talks between

the Democratic Unionist Party

0:19:350:19:39

and Sinn Fein have failed to reach

an agreement on the restoration

0:19:390:19:42

of devolved government.

0:19:420:19:43

The Northern Ireland Secretary,

James Brokenshire, said the impasse

0:19:430:19:46

meant the Government would have

to set a budget

0:19:460:19:48

for Northern Ireland.

0:19:480:19:50

While important progress has been

made, the parties have not yet

0:19:500:19:53

reached an agreement.

0:19:530:19:56

I'm not in a position to bring

before the house the legislation

0:19:560:20:00

necessary for an executive to be

formed this week.

0:20:000:20:03

The consequence of this

is that it is now highly unlikely

0:20:030:20:06

that an executive could be in place

within a timetable to be insured

0:20:060:20:09

of passing a budget before

the end of November.

0:20:090:20:14

Which is the point at

which we and the Northern Ireland

0:20:140:20:17

civil service assessed that

Northern Ireland will begin

0:20:170:20:19

to run out of resources.

0:20:190:20:23

No government could simply stand

by and allow that to happen

0:20:230:20:26

and we would you shirking our

responsibilities to the people of

0:20:260:20:28

Northern Ireland were we to do so.

0:20:280:20:32

James Brokenshire's opposite number

used the opportunity

0:20:320:20:34

to attack Theresa May.

0:20:340:20:37

We believe that the Prime

Minister of Great Britain

0:20:370:20:41

and Northern Ireland could get stuck

into this problem and try and bring

0:20:410:20:44

about a resolution over the impasse.

0:20:440:20:47

It is, in my view,

inexcusable and completely

0:20:470:20:53

inexplicable that she's

0:20:530:20:57

only visited Northern Ireland once

during her 15 months in office and

0:20:570:21:00

that for a 15 minute photocall

during the elections at an

0:21:000:21:03

agricultural show.

0:21:030:21:05

James Brokenshire insisted

Theresa May had been

0:21:050:21:07

talking to the parties.

0:21:070:21:08

The DUP's deputy leader predicted

that direct rule wasn't far off.

0:21:080:21:11

We would set the

government up tomorrow.

0:21:110:21:12

Sinn Fein are blocking it.

0:21:120:21:13

So, the Secretary of State

is perfectly right to come

0:21:130:21:16

to this house, as we have been

urging, to get the budget set and I

0:21:160:21:19

would also say to them

that we cannot allow

0:21:190:21:22

the drift to continue.

0:21:220:21:23

That, at some point in the very

near future, we will need to have

0:21:230:21:26

ministers and if they are not

Northern Ireland executive

0:21:260:21:28

ministers, which is what we want and

other parties want, but Sinn Fein

0:21:280:21:31

are blocking that, then it will have

to be ministers from here.

0:21:310:21:40

Earlier this week ,

the Justice Secretary,

0:21:400:21:42

David Lidington, indicated

that the government

0:21:420:21:44

was about to make a concession

on prisoner voting and bring

0:21:440:21:46

to an end a long

running legal battle.

0:21:460:21:48

In 2005 the European Court

of Human Rights ruled

0:21:480:21:50

against the UK's blanket ban

on allowing prisoners to vote.

0:21:500:21:53

David Lidington returned to

the Commons to announce his plans.

0:21:530:21:58

We will amend guidance to address

an anomaly in the current system

0:21:580:22:01

where offenders who are released

back in the community on licence

0:22:010:22:06

using an electronic tag,

under the home detention curfew

0:22:060:22:10

scheme, can vote under the present

arrangements but those

0:22:100:22:14

who are in the community

on temporary licence cannot vote.

0:22:140:22:19

Release on temporary licence

is a tool typically used to allow

0:22:190:22:23

offenders to commute from prison

to employment in the community

0:22:230:22:28

and so prepare themselves

for their return to society.

0:22:280:22:34

We believe that reinstating

the civic rights of voting

0:22:340:22:37

at this point is consistent

with that approach.

0:22:370:22:41

I think we need to know

what these discussions

0:22:410:22:44

and what assurances the Minister,

Secretary of State, has had

0:22:440:22:49

with lawyers to ensure

that his proposal today does bring

0:22:490:22:51

us in line with human rights law

because the last thing

0:22:510:22:58

that his house wants is a Secretary

of State having to come back

0:22:580:23:05

to the house at some point

in the future and explain that,

0:23:050:23:08

unfortunately, this hasn't satisfied

the test and isn't fulfilling our

0:23:080:23:11

international obligations.

0:23:110:23:12

May I add my congratulations

to my right honourable friend who,

0:23:120:23:14

after many years, has arrived

at what I think is an elegant

0:23:140:23:17

and sensible solution.

0:23:170:23:18

He will be aware that in the Council

of Europe it caused great

0:23:180:23:21

consternation that the UK was unable

to comply with these judgments

0:23:210:23:24

and it led to talk of the UK even

leaving the Council of Europe,

0:23:240:23:27

which after all we were a founding

member of by the Treaty of London.

0:23:270:23:31

Can he just confirm

that we now leave the company

0:23:310:23:36

of the countries of Armenia,

Bulgaria, Estonia, Jordan,

0:23:360:23:43

Hungary and Russia that

remain the only countries

0:23:430:23:45

in the Council of Europe that

still have a blanket ban.

0:23:450:23:48

The government has instituted

a system of Universal Credit

0:23:480:23:50

on the basis that it mirrors

the world of work so, why then,

0:23:500:23:53

not use the same logic and consider

that prisoners should be prepared

0:23:530:23:56

for life outside of prison

by maintaining their

0:23:560:23:58

civic right to a vote?

0:23:580:24:04

A very tiny concession

by the government is the bare

0:24:040:24:07

minimum it could get away

with and I believe that

0:24:070:24:10

when you imprison somebody,

you deprive them of their liberty,

0:24:100:24:12

you don't deprive

them of their rights.

0:24:120:24:19

I don't understand, perhaps

the Minister can tell me why

0:24:190:24:22

he feels so threatened by that.

0:24:220:24:23

The act of depriving someone

of his or her liberty

0:24:230:24:26

when they are sentenced to custody,

I would have thought by definition,

0:24:260:24:28

deprives them of some

absolutely vital civic rights.

0:24:280:24:31

I think giving the vote to any

prisoners is idiotic, unjustifiable,

0:24:310:24:35

and is about as popular

with the general public as finding

0:24:350:24:38

a rattlesnake in a lucky dip.

0:24:380:24:41

Philip Davies,

not mincing his words.

0:24:410:24:44

And finally, you may not have heard

of Erskine May but -

0:24:440:24:48

and you can trust me on this -

it is considered to be the most

0:24:480:24:51

authoritative reference book

on parliamentary procedure.

0:24:510:24:54

The question exercising MPs was -

is it available online?

0:24:540:24:58

One Labour MP -

who's interested in this sort

0:24:580:25:00

of thing - had the answer.

0:25:000:25:02

It is available on the intranet

in a 1000 page PDF which expresses

0:25:020:25:08

that it is not to be used

for the public.

0:25:080:25:12

What I'm asking, and I hope

that the commitment from the leader

0:25:120:25:14

of the house is clear,

that we will now be making it

0:25:140:25:17

available to the whole

of the country because the people

0:25:170:25:22

of this country are demanding

Erskine May be made available

0:25:220:25:24

to them without having to buy a copy

of the book.

0:25:240:25:27

And the good news is the Leader

of the House is looking into it

0:25:270:25:30

and perhaps in the not too distant

future we'll all be able

0:25:300:25:33

to read up on parliamentary

procedure on the go.

0:25:330:25:35

That's all we've time for,

but do join me on Friday night

0:25:350:25:38

at 11, for our round up

of the week at Westminster.

0:25:380:25:41

But for now from me,

Mandy Baker, goodbye.

0:25:410:25:45

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