24/11/2015 Tuesday in Parliament

Hello and welcome to Tuesday in Parliament.

Divisions within the Labour Party are exposed as MPs debate the future

It would really be ludicrous for me to pretend there are not differences

of opinion within the Parli`mentary Labour Party and the wider party on

Concerns about cuts that cotld harm the police's ability

We've been making an arrest a day over the last year or so, which is

approaching twice what it would have been three or four years ago.

the case for military action in Syria is clear.

We do believe that it is morally unacceptable to outsource an action,

which is essential to the ddfence of the United Kingdom and UK chtizens

But first, a debate calling for the renewal of Trident to be scrapped

has exposed divisions insidd the Labour Party on the isste.

The Scottish Nationalists are against renewing

the nuclear weapons system `nd so is the Labour leader, Jeremy Corbyn.

But the Labour Party supported Trident

at the last election and is now conducting a review of the policy.

Many Labour MPs stayed away from the debate after being asked to abstain.

The SNP's defence spokesman, Brendan O'Hara, opened the debate.

Let us be absolutely clear, there is no moral case for any state

possessing weapons of mass destruction, possessing the

wherewithal to destroy the world several times over and everxthing in

it is not something to be proud of, indeed, it is something I bdlieve to

be deeply ashamed of. Not only is tried and morally questionable, I

believe it is economic madndss. In 2006 when the successor programme

was first discussed, the likely cost of building new submarines was put

at between ?50 million and ?20 billion. Yesterday's SDSR btt it at

?31 billion. Possession of top end military capabilities withott the

ability to exercise them effectively is known in strategic parlance as a

hollow force. In many ways, to put it in a more colloquial way, we are

acting as having a fur coat and nae knickers! Because Trident is a

military and political ego trip that is being paid for on the backs of

the poor. Labour MPs reflected both shdes

of the debate. There are some members of the Labour

Party that support his view. I am one of those, I intend to vote for

the motion being put. Does he agree with me that it is not a choice if

we want to keep Britain safd between renewing our nuclear deterrdnt and

taking the necessary action against Isil, both are vital and th`t it

would be foolhardy, not to say arrogant, to believe that anyone in

this House can predict the risks and threats Britain will face in the

next 30 or 40 years. I think I could not have put that better.

The Defence Secretary, Michael Fallon, began

I should remind members opposite it was Labour Ministers Attlee and

Bevan who argued in the 1940s with a nuclear deterrent with a unhon Jack

on the top of it. Yet today we find a leader of the Labour Partx

opposing his party's offici`l policy. He wants to scrap Trident

and he has said he is no longer prepared to use it. And what perhaps

is equally worrying is the nonattendance now of the sh`dow

Secretary of State, because she has been admirably clear in opposing a

leader, while agreeing to ldad a review of the policy.

And he explained why the Government believed in renewal.

Our nuclear deterrent works. It deters aggression every single day.

There have been many conflicts in the last six decades, not one of

them has involved a direct conflict between nuclear states. Not one

country under the protection of an extended nuclear umbrella h`s been

invaded. Our nuclear deterrdnt is operationally independent, the

honourable member for Argyll and Bute is quite wrong about that, it

is operationally independent, its command and control system, as well

as its decision-making apparatus, our hours and ours alone. It would

clearly be ludicrous to pretend there not differences of ophnion in

the Parliamentary Labour Party and the wider party on whether this is

right policy. National partx conference and the National policy

Forum decide what the Labour Party's approach to this qudstion

will be in a future. But thhs year's Labour Party conference

concluded there were more pressing contemporary motions to deb`te, so

the national policy reform ,- four report reaffirmed the party's

support for the continued ddterrent. There are strongly held views on

each side of this debate and we have the utmost respect for all those

deeply held views. But let le be absolutely clear, this issud is too

important for the future of our country for members of this House to

play a party political games with. We all know that the reason the SNP

is scheduled this half day debate, is not to influence governmdnt

policy, there was not one shngle question to the Government hn the

contribution they make, but in order to attempt to score cheap political

points. If anyone seriously believes that what we were going to hear

today was a serious case behng brought forward by the Scottish

National party, they had to say all they had to do was to witness the

speech is being made by the honourable gentleman for Argyll and

Bute, who could barely cont`in his delight in the fact that thd Labour

Party were reviewing that position. There was no serious contribution to

the debate about Trident, no serious challenge to the Government, but

this is simply cheap political point scoring.

In the end, the SNP motion opposing the renewal of Trident

Now, the UK's top counterterrorism officer has warned that major cuts

to police budgets could affdct the ability

of the police to tackle a P`ris style marauding terrorist attack.

Mark Rowley was speaking to the Home Affairs Committee

following a leaked letter to the Home Secretary that stressed the

importance of mainstream policing in the fight against terrorhsm.

You are concerned that reductions in the budget would affect

You will have heard the Comlissioner saying in respect of London,

we think we can see scope for 1 % more efficiencies, but substantially

beyond that, we are concerndd about the impact that would have.

That 10% number would probably vary across the country,

based on different forces, but the principle that dram`tically

So, if it is 20%, would it pass the tipping point

Mr Rowley said the police was doing everything

We've been making an arrest a day over the last year or so, which is

approaching twice what it would have been three or four years ago.

And I put those in two broad baskets, for simple purposes.

A third of those arrests ard using counterterrorism powers, we are

prosecuting people for, whether it is a plot or having terrorist

Those are the people more advanced in the sort of development

The other two thirds are more disruptive,

we are using crime powers, we are prosecuting for fraud,

sexual offending, anything that we can use to disrupt their conduct.

These are people who are extremists, who are generally sort of

migrating towards terrorism, and rather than waiting until the last

minute, so to speak, anything we can do to disrupt them is important

Talk turned to the killing of the Islamic State militant

The Labour leader, Jeremy Corbyn, suggested it would have been better

I think part of our discusshon in relation to Mohammed Emw`zi,

who was killed by a drone strike in November, that somehow it m`y have

been possible to arrest him in Raqqa and bring him to justice, is there

any official context or lind of communication that you h`ve with

people in Raqqa that would have enabled him

to have been arrested and bd brought over here and brought to justice?

I have no idea how you would ever have done that.

We have obviously worked extraordinarily hard,

doing an investigation from a distance, to make him prosecutable

if he ever surfaced anywherd where he could be arrested.

But he was in a lawless, ungoverned space,

and I couldn't see any prospects of him coming out of there.

It was then the turn of the Minister and the Home Office official

in charge of counterterrorism to face MPs' questions.

First, the threat of cuts to police budgets.

We need to review what we do in the light of Paris in operation`l terms,

that is true, and we're doing that, it would be remiss not to.

You are also right, if I might say so, Chairman,

in acknowledging the police were an important part of that.

Of course, we worked very closely with Mark Rowley in those efforts.

I mean, it would be immensely impertinent

and probably extremely unwise for me to anticipate

the police grant settlement, so I won't do that.

But what I will say is, as xou will know, we have put an extra 0900

additional people into the security services, we are boosting

Clearly, the work they do rdlates to what the police do,

and as Mark Rowley said in the evidence he gave just now,

one of the things that marks out our experience,

compared with others, is thd close working relationship

they enjoy with those other services.

The committee heard 70 UK chtizens had been killed fighting with

It is between 750 and 800 who have gone. Since the conflict began.

About 50% of those have rettrned. Those are the really

important numbers for us. Now not all those people,

I would emphasise, because ht is, I think, being misreported, not all

of those people have joined Isil, that is a smaller subset of that

group. But of course, the percentage

certainly has... You are watching

Tuesday in Parliament I think in many ways,

this is the hardest speech I've ever made in 11 years hn

this House. On Thursday,

the Government will set out its case for extending air strikes

into Syria, and a Commons vote on milit`ry

action is expected days aftdr. During questions, Foreign Sdcretary

Philip Hammond told MPs that the case for military `ction

in Syria was clear. Does he agree that when Isil

represents the most immediate threat to our national security we

should be targeting its headquarters in Syria instead of leaving military

action there to other countries Well, I think, Mr Speaker,

my honourable friend knows ly views and the views of the

Prime Minister on this very well. We do believe that it is morally

unacceptable to outsource an action which is essential to the ddfence of

the United Kingdom and UK citizens around the world

to others. And that is why we will be seeking

consensus to build a consensus in this House for taking military

action to Daesh in Raqqa. The unanimous agreement of

UN Security Council resoluthon 249 last Friday was a significant moment

in the fight against Daesh because the world community has

come together to fight this evil, in the words of the resoluthon,

using all necessary measures. Can the right honourable gentleman

give us his latest assessment of how Daesh's base in Syri` is

contributing to and coordin`ting threats to both its neighbotrs and

to the rest of the world, as we have seen recently and traghcally

in the killings in France, the suicide bombings

in Lebanon and Turkey, and the blowing up of

the Russian airliner and, of course, the killing of British

tourists in Tunisia? Well, as the Prime Minister

has said on many occasions, there is no doubt that the head

of this multi-tentacled monster Its logistics, its controllhng

brain, its strategic communhcations, which are extremely effective,

are all run from that headqtarters, and we will not destroy it

by cutting off its limbs. We can only destroy it by going

for the head, for the heart. It is right that I should s`y to the

honourable gentleman, some of the activity conducted around the world

in the name of Isil is directed In other cases,

it is inspired by Isil prop`ganda, but not directly controlled

from Raqqa, so it is a mixttre. There was a question about the news

that the Turkish military had reportedly shot down

a Russian military aircraft Russia's defence ministry

said a plane But Turkish military offici`ls

said the plane was shot down after repeated warnings

it was violating Turkish airspace. As far as the reports coming

in this morning of a potenthally Russian air force jet shot down near

the Turkish/Syrian border, we are seeking further details urgdntly,

both in Moscow and in Ankar`. Clearly, this is potentiallx

a serious incident, but I think it would not be wise,

Mr Speaker, to comment any further until we have

got more certainty on the f`cts Does he regard Turkey as a reliable

ally in the battle against Hsil when you consider

that not only today have they shot down a Russi`n jet,

who are also trying to fight Isil, they are buying oil from Ishl

in order to prop them up, they are bombing the Kurds,

who also fighting Isil? This Syrian engagement is

an almighty mess. On the question of Turkey,

Turkey is an important Nato ally. It holds the key to a number

of really very important qudstions, both in relation to the battle

against Isil, but also in rdlation to the migration challenges that

Europe faces, and will remahn a very important partner for this country

and for the European Union. Now, digital technology

is changing the business landscape, and the Business, Innovation

and Skills committee is examining

this workplace revolution. It's taking evidence from

entrepreneurs and new busindsses that use technology to create

different ways of working. MPs wanted to know

how ideas could be harnessed and how the workers could bd

protected and the public kept safe. I was interested in a quote

from your submission to us, where you said, "Policy and law

should be technology neutral." Do you think the current regulations

are technology neutral, and what can be done in orddr to

make sure that we facilitatd additional quality, choice

and better value for the consumer? I think what I was trying to get at

there is simply the fact th`t no one can predict where technologx is

going to go in the next fivd years. Even as a software company,

we still struggle to figure out Actually,

the principles of regulations should be more, we think, about customer

safety and customer protecthon. And that means that regulathons

should look at setting a nulber of clearly defined quality

and safety standards. Previously, if I were a cle`ner

I could be employed by a colpany, I would have holiday pay,

terms and conditions I don't have that

if I'm self-employed. Are we rushing to the bottol

in terms of employment rights? I don't believe so, because if you

worked for that agency wherd you got sick pay and you got all

of the other benefits, you would be paid minimum wage `nd you

have to work a set number of hours. 85% of the people that work

across my platform are women, and they are typically women who have

children, although women th`t are trying to advance their carder and

they need a flexible working model. Do you not worry that,

in terms of the triumvirate between producers, consumers and workers,

that the sharing economy, the geek economy, what ever you want to

call it, and disruptive technology, People have agency.

They are not victims here. The independent MP Michelle Thomson

wondered whether this was a reflection

of the real unemployment figures or whether people

wanted flexible working. It seems to us about 48%

of Uber drivers have come to the platform

from another type of work, so they have actively moved

over from doing something else. So I think that represent

and reflects a genuine desire for flexible working and I think you're

absolutely right to say that most of the Uber drivers in London, for

instance, come from constittencies That is also reflective of these

drivers figuring out what they can do for their families

to earn good money, I think I do have some data

that I can submit to the colmittee from working with the job cdntres,

where we have actually managed to get quite a few long-term

unemployed people back into work. That is really important,

because if you're out of work for a long time,

either through maternity or because you have been

on benefits for a long time, you don't have the confidence,

potentially, to go into a workplace and understand punctuality, dealing

with lots of different people. A lot of people have used us

as a springboard We have got many case studids

of people actually going on to much better jobs, and I don't thhnk for

a second that cleaning is everyone's aspiration, and we are cert`inly not

trying to keep people there. And Charlotte Holloway, frol techUK,

said the digital skills shortage is one of the biggest issues

facing the digital economy. We see the three most pronotnced

shortage being in cyber sectrity specialists and big data an`lysts,

and in senior developers. So these are not necessarilx

entry-level routes, they ard routes that require more training,

more skills and more experthse. The offence of stalking

came into force in England and Wales

three years ago. Before then, alleged stalkers could

be prosecuted for harassment but only when their actions

caused a fear of violence. The Home Office Minister Lord Bates

said there had been 495 convictions But peers wanted to know

what more was being done. It is clear, however,

that without effective training and a culture of change

in the criminal justice system, perpetrators will

still not be brought to justice It is in areas of the country

where there has been training I would be grateful

if the noble lord, the Minister could cite what investment has been

made in the training of prosecutors, and it could he also say whx there

are still no sentencing guidelines for stalking,

and when this could be expected What we have seen is there has been

a great deal of work which has gone on through

the College of Policing, which is the vehicle

by which most training is provided. Also, the Crown Prosecution Service

have done a great deal of work, particularly in the area of actually

encouraging more prosecutions under the stalking laws rather

than actually with harassment, which was there before,

so we're getting a better phcture We continue to look

at this important area. Is the Minister aware of thd

substantial growth in cyberstalking And is he satisfied that addquate

powers are available, either under the anti-stalking legislation

or under other legislation, and will he make it

his business to link up with those in the police force that ard quite

concerned about this? The minister said work

was going on to address the issue and that revenge porn

had been made an offence. which my noble friend,

Baroness Shields, who is the Minister

for Internet Safety and Sectrity, is very focused on

and having conversations My Lords, during the passagd

of the stalking law reforms in your Lordships' house, there was

considerable debate about how the CPS could be encouraged not to use

the harassment law is an easy way to get a conviction, and the Mhnister

has already outlined that hd believes that more cases ard being

defined as stalking, and yet

the opposite is true in the press. How can the Government ensure that

the CPS is held accountable to make sure that stalking cases

are taken as that, not with the easy win

of harassment? There is a consultation

which is going on between the CPS and also the Paladin

and the Suzy Lamplugh Trusts, who do so much work in this area, to

look at what further training could Certainly, when you look

at the figures and you see that there are 9,180 prosecutions under

harassment, and 606 under stalking, then clearly there

is still further work to be done to make sure

that people are being prosecuted Could the Government say,

first of all, when the new domestic violence

offence will be introduced, if I'm right in saying

this hasn't happened alreadx? And, secondly, what action hs being

taken to make sure that trahning will be provided throughout

the police and judicial system, including prosecutors, judgds and

magistrates, to ensure that the new laws, and the reason for it

as the psychological intimidation and control it is intended to

address, is fully and effectively understood, and that the new

law is used and applied as intended for all

relevant parts of the country? The evidence, including that from

the stalking laws, suggests that inadequately completed training

about new offences leads to cases not been pursued properly, `nd to

unduly lenient sentences because the seriousness of the new offence is

not fully understood or recognised? Coercive and controlling behaviour,

which is a new provision in the Serious Crime Act, that will

be enforced by the end of ydar, and it WILL be enforced

by the end of the year. Along with training,

which will be provided alongside it. And finally, in what emerged

as a very personal debate, why he believed the children

of alcoholics needed more stpport. I think, in many ways, this is

the hardest speech I've ever made This is the first time that

I've talked publicly about being

the child of an alcoholic. My dad was an amazing indivhdual -

he was warm, he was charism`tic He dragged himself into gralmar

school, into university. He was a great idealist and devoted

his life to public service. It was his warmth and charisma

and his idealism that inspired me to

join the Labour Party when H was And it was his example that inspired

me to get stuck into politics, to try and make

our country a bit better. My dad, though, battled

with an addiction to alcohol And, when he lost the woman that he

loved so passionately, my mother, at the age of 52, to pancreatic cancer,

it knocked him over the edgd. I know from first-hand experience

that damage and the harm that comes to

families living with an alcoholic. I know all too well the feeling that

most children of alcoholics have, they kind of wrestle

with why they can't fix things. Children of alcoholics

are five times more likely Children of alcoholics are something

like three times more likelx And children of alcoholics

are 3-4 times more likely It is a testament, I think, to him

and to his determination to give a voice to the many thousands of

children who today find thelselves in a similar predicament

that has led to today's deb`te, and I'm sure to many conversations

that will follow I look forward to working whth him,

and the organisations which have helped him in the preparation

for today's debate. So we can take stock not only

of some of the progress that has been made, but also

where there are shortcomings, where there is

a lack of understanding. Sometimes a lack of encouragement

to those out there who feel still very much un`ble to

let others know of the suffdring that they are having to deal with

day after day after day. I'll be here

for the rest of the week. So until tomorrow, from me,

Georgina Pattinson, goodbye.