19/04/2016 Tuesday in Parliament


19/04/2016

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Hello there and welcome to Tuesday in Parliament.

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On this programme: A Treasury assessment of how much it would cost

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the UK to leave the EU is attacked by Conservative Eurosceptics.

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The Foreign Secretary says British troops are not expected to be

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involved in frontline fighting against Islamic extremists in Libya.

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And a call for clearer food labelling in supermarkets.

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The consumer absolutely has the right to know if a cheap cut of

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pork on a supermarket shelf has been reared in banned conditions.

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But first, to Treasury questions in the Commons, where Conservative

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MPs lined up to attack a Government document warning that the economy

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would shrink if the UK left the EU.

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The analysis was published by the Treasury

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on Monday and warned that an EU exit would hit the public

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finances by ?36 billion, with families being ?4,300 a year

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worse off.

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In a bleak assessment, it also stated that the UK economy

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would be 6% smaller than it would otherwise be by 2030.

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The document did get support from the Labour benches.

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Doesn't he agree that those Leave campaigners shouldn't just cross

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their fingers and dismiss reality and that all of us on all sides of

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this House have the duty to spell out the facts that leaving the

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European Union would put real jobs at a real risk?

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Well, the honourable gentleman will be aware of the

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Treasury analysis, published yesterday, but that shows the

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consequences were we to leave the European Union and the various

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models that involve a permanent reduction

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to our GDP and damage to

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productivity growth that would be significant

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and yes, I think the

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honourable gentleman is right to make that point.

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The impact of the EU membership on jobs is obviously

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significant.

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Could the Minister pass my congratulations to the officials

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who have done such a very useful analysis.

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On page 65, there is a regional breakdown which suggests

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that 800,000 jobs in the north-east are dependent on EU exports.

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I had previously thought the figure should

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be 140,000.

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Could you ask him to look at it with a view to

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revising it up?

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But a series of Conservative MPs stood up to criticise

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the Treasury's publication.

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The disgraceful, dodgy document published...

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Which, frankly, is worthy of the children's programme,

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Jackanory.

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The immigration figures suggest there will be 3 million

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immigrants to this country by 2030, placing my honourable friend in

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clear breach of the Conservative manifesto to reduce immigration to

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tens of thousands per year.

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How is having a net migration of an additional

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3 million people going to

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help first-time buyers find a home?

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Well, as I say, we have the products to help first-time buyers in this

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country afford housing.

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But I make this observation on migration,

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you cannot have access to the single market without accepting free

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movement of people.

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I remember the good old days, Mr Speaker, when the

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Chancellor regarded Treasury predictions as so discredited that

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he established the OBR instead.

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I can't think what could have changed.

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The GDB predictions in his dodgy dossier

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are predicated on breaking our

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manifesto commitment on immigration.

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The cost implications of a new policy of mass migration in areas

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like school places, housing, health and transport

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are not explicit in

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the document.

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Why is that?

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We're having a referendum and people are

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going to take different views on the prospects

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of the United Kingdom going forward.

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But the public want facts and information.

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We have set that out in the analysis produced by the

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Treasury and what we think what the likely impact

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on the economy will be and that analysis has been supported

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now by the London School of Economics, it is giving a similar

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message to that given by the Bank of England about the economic shock

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that will come if we leave and of course

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you have bodies like the

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International Monetary Fund and others saying a similar thing.

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In his documents published yesterday,

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the Chancellor posed the question, "Is our national

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"security best served

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"by retreating from the world?"

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I do hope my right honourable friend is

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not foolish enough to suggest that those of us who wish the United

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Kingdom to leave the EU want to retreat from

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the world, because the

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truth is far from that.

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We want the UK to break free from the

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shackles of the EU and its superstate and embrace the exciting

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state out there which befits the world's fifth largest economy,

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nuclear power and a permanent member of the United Nations Security

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Council.

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Well, of course, I respect my right honourable friend's views,

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we're having a referendum and his vote and my vote count equally.

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I would make the point that our membership of the European Union

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does enhance our national security.

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That is a point made by the Secretary General of Nato last week

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as well.

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And I would just observe that not a single one of this

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country's allies or friends abroad are recommending that we leave the

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EU.

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George Osborne.

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British troops are not expected to be on the front line in Libya,

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the Foreign Secretary has told the Commons.

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Philip Hammond was returning from a meeting with

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the country's new Government of National Accord,

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or GNA.

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He said there was "no appetite" in Libya for foreign combat troops

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fighting in the country.

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But he said it was quite possible air and naval support would be

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requested by Libya, although no request has yet

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been made.

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I am clear that there is no appetite in Libya for any

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combat troops on the ground.

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We do not anticipate any requests from the

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GNA for ground combat forces to take on Daesh or any armed groups

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and we have no plans to deploy troops in such a role.

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I will of course keep the House informed of

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any plans we develop in the future in response to requests from the

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Libyan Government.

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But the type of mission that we currently envisage

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will be focused on providing training and technical support away

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from any front-line operations.

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On this side, we welcome the establishment of the Libyan

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Government of National Accord led by their Prime Minister.

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As the Foreign Secretary said, it faces a

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formidable task in assuring security, restoring public services,

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building up the economy and tackling the threat from Daesh.

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But does the Foreign Secretary agree, that his

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ability to do so will be determined by the extent to which the new

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Government is able to gain support and consent right across Libya

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as it faces the task of re-establishing Government, indeed

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governance, in all parts of the country?

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The Foreign Secretary said the House would be invited to give

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a view if there was a possibility of a combat deployment in the area,

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but not in the case of a training deployment.

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The chair of the Foreign Affairs Committee felt the line

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between the two was pretty slim.

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A coherent British contribution will be easier with the

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consent and understanding of this House.

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It may need to include, for

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example, air strikes on Daesh targets as the training commission

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he has alluded to and I would counsel him that he is dancing on

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pretty thin ground with his differentiation between the training

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mission in a combat zone and not seeking to carry this House with

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him.

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I noticed the language he has used talks about being away from the

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front line of operations, I wonder whether there is anything more he

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can say about that?

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We are very clear that we can make that

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distinction.

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I would draw his attention for example to

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Afghanistan, a kinetic theatre if ever there was one.

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We have a training mission there, which has

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been successfully conducted for the last 15 months

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with great effect.

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Libya has been an unmitigated disaster for this Government.

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We even have a sitting president criticising a sitting UK Prime

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Minister and a humanitarian side where a UN official

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said "It is paltry

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"bone-throwing from a European country whose

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"bombers wreaked so much

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"destruction."

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We do not have a good record on Libya, Mr Speaker.

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It is very easy to sit over there hurling stones.

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The world is an untidy place and we have

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to deal with the situations that present themselves.

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And he talks about humanitarian.

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I would remind him that when we intervened in 2011

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in Libya, it was to prevent an imminent genocide.

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That was a successful intervention that saved

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countless thousands of lives.

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Libya is a rich country, we should not

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forget that.

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There are $70-odd billion worth of Libyan

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assets outside the country, currently frozen by

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the UN Security Council

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Resolution.

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The Foreign Secretary,

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Philip Hammond.

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You're watching Tuesday in Parliament, with me,

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Alicia McCarthy.

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Peers have urged a rethink on new rules on how charities

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spend government grants which, it's claimed,

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amount to making them take a vow of silence.

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From May, charities and other organisations will no longer be

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allowed to spend taxpayers' money on lobbying ministers.

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The Cabinet Office said the new clause in grants would mean

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funds will go to good causes, not political campaigns.

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But at question time in the Lords, many peers were sceptical.

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Does not the minister believe it is an healthy open society

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which not just allows us to actively

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encourage the use of public monies given out

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as grants to question the

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status quo, challenge the Government over the policy when it

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felt necessary and indeed make constructive recommendations for new

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policy?

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Is this an essential aspect of the national public debate?

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This clause threatens that, will damage

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democracy and should be scrapped.

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I'd say there is a fundamental point of principle on

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which I cannot agree with you on, though I know

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holds passionate views on this

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subject.

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This is about making sure that the many billions of pounds

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that the taxpayer's money that goes to grant

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recipient is spent on the

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original allocation of that grant and does not find its way into

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political lobbying and campaigning.

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Should we not remember that this public money has come from taxation

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from people, well-off people, poor people and other people throughout

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the kingdom?

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The money is there to be granted for useful purposes.

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It is not there to pay for campaigning

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and lobbying with public money, if people want that.

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And I've lobbied

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and given money for lobbying, but that was not public money.

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Is it not important we are on the side of

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freedom?

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And is it not true that almost universally, what the

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Government intends to do is seen to be a bar to the freedom of

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expression?

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This anti-lobbying cause is going to have a serious impact on

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research, since most people do research in order to influence

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policy and have policy more evidence-based.

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And is it not odd that this does not apply in any way to restrict

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Government-funded lobbying and not to commercial lobbying at all?

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Should not its real emphasis be on the

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control of abuse of funds, like Kids Company?

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Would it not be wise in the present circumstances to

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postpone the application of this new agreement until after the 1st

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of May so that further consultation could

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take place on this very important threat to the freedom of research

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and speech?

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I hear what the Noble Lord is saying and I have certainly

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received the other ministers and their

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concerns over research and the

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academic community and let me tell you,

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clearly, the implementation of

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this particular clause as regards science and research is a matter for

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the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills.

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And let me tell you that this is not

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the department's nor the Government's intention for research

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councils the higher education funding councils

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or the National academies

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to be covered by this clause.

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Ministers are continuing to exchange with

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the National Research Council, they will outline the detail

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by the 1st of May.

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Staying in the Lords, the Government has announced a concession over

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Trade Union funding.

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Ministers were planning to end the collection

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of union subs directly from employees' pay packets,

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known as check-off.

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Now the practice will continue if the employer and the union agree.

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Lord Bridges made the concession at the start of the day's

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debate on the bill.

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I've been a member of your lordship's house

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for a little under a year.

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One of the many lessons I've learned is that when ministers stand

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at this Dispatch Box and face cannons to left of them,

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cannons to the right and cannons in front of them...

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LAUGHTER

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..and maybe even behind them, it is usually best to pause

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and to ask the reason why.

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And, uncomfortable though this may be,

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it is nothing like as uncomfortable as charging on.

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Arguments have been made with considerable vim and

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vigour that by ending check-off and moving

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to direct debit, those on low pay and,

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especially those who have payday loans, might have to cease

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being trade-union members or have to pay extra bank charges.

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Again, my lords, this is not our intention and

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never has been.

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And to show that the Government means this and to avoid

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further acrimony on this issue, the Government will support the

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principles behind Lord Balfe's Amendment.

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Amendment 21 would allow check-off to remain where there is

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an agreement with the employer to provide check-off.

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It sets out how the administration of this would be

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paid for and allows that employees can be paid by other means

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should they wish.

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So, my lords, this amendment ticks three boxes.

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Cost - which will be borne by the unions,

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not the taxpayers - consistency across all

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sectors and control.

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Individuals will be able to choose how to pay their union.

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The change of heart was warmly welcomed by Labour.

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My lords, check-off is trusted by trade-union members, it

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helps them manage their finances.

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As the noble Lords have stressed, thousands of low paid members across

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the public sector, who need the choice to opt

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for check-off, will be greatly

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relieved that it is to continue and that they won't stand to lose their

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eligibility to workplace representation and for

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key trade-union benefits, such as those detailed

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so fully in committee by the

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noble Lord Balfe, including professional-indemnity insurance,

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legal representation for accidents at work and unemployment issues.

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Lady Wheeler.

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Next week, MPs will consider a call from the Lords for the UK to take

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in 3,000 unaccompanied child refugees.

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In a short debate, MPs from all sides urged ministers

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to act with compassion, particularly in respect

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of children in the Jungle, the refugee

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camp near Calais.

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One MP spoke of the nightmare her four-year-old experienced recently.

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He had all of his favourite toys around

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him, he had his own pyjamas on, he was in his own bed and he knew

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that his mum and dad were just along the corridor

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able to come in and give him the comfort

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and support he needed.

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The horror and terror that unaccompanied children must

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experience is unimaginable.

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Refugee children are waking from their

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nightmares and finding that real life is worse.

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If the British people are

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there, then so should be this Government.

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This is not France's problem.

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Our compassion, our Dunkirk spirit and geographical proximity

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have made it our problem as well.

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So I urge the Minister to do everything

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in his power, find those children before it is too late and bring them

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home for good.

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We're in a situation today where there are children

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being...

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Failing to be supported in Europe. They are all over the place.

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In Lesbos they are being fed by sandwiches being thrown

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over a fence. It is unacceptable.

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I spoke to a mother who had put her two

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young children, aged two and seven, on the back of a truck with

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the hope that they would make it to the UK.

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I don't know if they did, she will never know

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where these children are.

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This is the emotion of the debate and this is the reality.

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Keeping people in squalor is no deterrent, it merely dehumanises.

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The French authorities need to speed up decision-making, ensure

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reunification happens swiftly, if appropriate.

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To do the right thing should be possible in Europe.

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It is being recognised that we, in this country,

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are making decisions more swiftly,

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that is to be welcomed but I,

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like many other members here, want to see more.

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The target that Save The Children and others and my

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honourable friend, the member for Westmorland and Lonsdale, has

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advocated in his blueprint for 3000, that is 3000 children, is an

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attainable target.

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I think it would make a very substantial contribution

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at an EU level towards dealing with the many thousands, 30,000 or so,

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unaccompanied children who are already in the United Kingdom.

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The Government must offer these children

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not just a temporary safe haven but a lasting solution and the

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opportunity to make the UK a safe and secure childhood home.

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But there were words of caution too.

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It would be, I think, no justice to those who

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need the support and the help and the friendship of this country to

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bring them here without those adequate

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support mechanisms in place.

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So I hope that the Government will take the opportunity not only

0:18:320:18:35

to formulate its plans but to seek and receive the endorsement of

0:18:350:18:38

Save The Children and the UNHCR.

0:18:380:18:41

The minister focused on the calls for the UK

0:18:410:18:43

to resettle more children.

0:18:430:18:46

I do intend to follow through on the statement

0:18:460:18:50

that I made at the end of January and come forward with a clearer

0:18:500:18:53

statement to Parliament in the coming days.

0:18:530:18:56

I recognise the call for the Government

0:18:560:18:57

to take more action.

0:18:570:19:02

The UK has been working with the UNHCR around this issue and we

0:19:020:19:05

will be doing more.

0:19:050:19:08

James Brokenshire.

0:19:080:19:13

Only 10% of dogs bought in the UK are from registered breeders.

0:19:130:19:17

The Environment Food and Rural Affairs committee

0:19:170:19:21

heard that the vast majority come from abroad

0:19:210:19:23

or from unlicensed operators.

0:19:230:19:26

The demand for fashionable breeds, such as French bulldogs,

0:19:260:19:31

was driving a demand that could not be easily met and that meant many

0:19:310:19:34

animals were suffering ill health.

0:19:340:19:37

We estimate that 70,000, which is only 10% of the

0:19:370:19:42

puppy market, are born to registered British breeders and the remainder

0:19:420:19:45

come from either imports or unlicensed breeders and we can't be

0:19:450:19:49

specific again in the numbers there other than we do have an idea that

0:19:490:19:53

the unlicensed breeders is circa 400,000.

0:19:530:19:56

Can you describe how the

0:19:560:19:58

pet-travel scheme is being exploited?

0:19:580:20:03

And perhaps what remedies there might be to prevent the abuse

0:20:030:20:05

that is existing? Absolutely.

0:20:050:20:07

What we're finding is that there are clearly

0:20:070:20:10

some breeds of puppies that

0:20:100:20:11

are desirable in the UK.

0:20:110:20:14

Those breeds are being bred in Eastern

0:20:140:20:16

European countries, for example Hungary, Lithuania, Romania.

0:20:160:20:19

The conditions are shocking.

0:20:190:20:23

The provenance of the parents is not good.

0:20:230:20:27

For example, I saw some papers not long ago of puppies where it had

0:20:270:20:30

actually been sibling mating.

0:20:300:20:32

They are being transported by road across

0:20:320:20:35

to the UK, a trip of some 40 hours.

0:20:350:20:38

And they are actually being brought into the country under the

0:20:380:20:40

pet-travel scheme, which is non-commercial

0:20:400:20:41

movement rather than commercial movement.

0:20:410:20:46

The worry with that is passports are actually being

0:20:460:20:48

falsified, so obviously the minimum age of entry to the UK

0:20:480:20:50

should be 15 weeks.

0:20:500:20:52

Frequently these puppies are coming in at

0:20:520:20:53

eight and ten weeks of age.

0:20:530:20:55

Last year, we received 3500 calls with regard puppy-farm issues,

0:20:550:20:58

which was a 122% increase.

0:20:580:21:03

The sad fact is that 80% of these puppies were

0:21:030:21:05

sold through an internet advert of some description.

0:21:050:21:13

The dreadful fact that comes out of ir is over 20%

0:21:130:21:16

of those puppies then actually die. The mortality is incredibly high.

0:21:160:21:18

Puppies are often sick at the point of sell,

0:21:180:21:24

--Puppies are often sick at the point of sale,

0:21:240:21:26

which people don't know.

0:21:260:21:27

And I think some of the points that the chairman and others have raised

0:21:270:21:30

today, when the animal gets home, the impact

0:21:300:21:32

to the family is dreadful. So the consumer rights are affected.

0:21:320:21:35

Of course, there is the welfare of the

0:21:350:21:37

animal, which is clearly not good and it leads to very, very high

0:21:370:21:40

levels of euthanasia.

0:21:400:21:41

How is the demand for pedigree or designer dogs

0:21:410:21:43

driving the puppy trade?

0:21:430:21:45

It is an issue of supply and demand, obviously.

0:21:450:21:49

In many breeds, the demand for puppies is about right.

0:21:490:21:53

Where it becomes a problem, is where the demand for

0:21:530:21:58

certain breeds outstrips supply and the fact is that puppy buyers

0:21:580:22:01

don't know where to go to find a good breeder.

0:22:010:22:09

You heard some examples earlier on of the popularity of

0:22:090:22:12

breeds and I can add something to that, perhaps.

0:22:120:22:14

French Bulldogs, for example, which we heard about

0:22:140:22:16

a little earlier, in 2006 the kennel club were registering

0:22:160:22:18

526 in that year.

0:22:190:22:21

Last year we registered 14,500, over 14,500.

0:22:210:22:26

So there has been an enormous increase in

0:22:260:22:29

demand for those dogs. Consequently, the price has gone up.

0:22:290:22:34

The price of a French Bulldog ten years ago was roundabout ?800.

0:22:340:22:39

We saw peaks of around ?3000, ?4000.

0:22:390:22:43

These days it is fair to say the biggest

0:22:430:22:46

drivers for popularity of breed are other factors.

0:22:460:22:48

Celebrity influence, for example.

0:22:480:22:49

We believe that is what is happening

0:22:490:22:51

with French Bulldogs.

0:22:510:22:53

Even going back many years, if you take the corgi,

0:22:530:22:55

for example.

0:22:550:22:57

In 1960, the kennel club was registering 8000 corgis a

0:22:570:23:00

year, now we register less than 300.

0:23:000:23:05

And we believe that is probably due to, in the '60s, the Queen had

0:23:050:23:09

a celebrity status.

0:23:090:23:11

You were seeing pictures of her with her dogs and

0:23:110:23:13

her children and that has perhaps been overtaken

0:23:130:23:15

by other celebrity factors.

0:23:150:23:18

Do you know where the meat you buy in the supermarket comes from?

0:23:180:23:22

Well, a Conservative MP is calling for clearer mandatory labelling.

0:23:220:23:28

Animal welfare standards are set across the EU

0:23:280:23:30

and apply to all sorts of farm livestock.

0:23:300:23:33

But it's claimed that, unlike the UK, not all

0:23:330:23:35

countries enforce them.

0:23:350:23:39

A Conservative MP argued that a lack of labelling meant consumers

0:23:390:23:43

couldn't buy British in confidence and could even be

0:23:430:23:45

misled by supermarkets.

0:23:450:23:48

What I'm arguing for today, Mr Speaker, is more transparency.

0:23:480:23:50

So that the British consumer can make a

0:23:500:23:52

more informed decision about what they are buying.

0:23:520:23:54

Farm-to-fork traceability.

0:23:540:23:58

Our current situation is a confusing mixture of voluntary

0:23:580:24:00

standards bolted onto EU legislation, with some products

0:24:000:24:03

offering greater clarity of origin and

0:24:030:24:04

production standards than others.

0:24:040:24:14

Consumers do care about how their animals in the food chain have been

0:24:150:24:18

cared for during their short lives.

0:24:180:24:19

There are specific EU requirements on keeping of calves, pigs,

0:24:190:24:22

laying hens and broilers.

0:24:220:24:23

The EU banned conventional cramped cages for

0:24:230:24:24

laying hens in 2012 and specifically phased out the use of individual

0:24:240:24:27

stalls for pregnant sows in 2013.

0:24:270:24:30

These are appallingly stressful stalls keep pregnant sows caged,

0:24:300:24:32

usually on concrete, so they cannot move about.

0:24:320:24:34

They cut farmers' costs but were banned for cruelty reasons

0:24:340:24:36

in the UK in 1999.

0:24:360:24:39

They were specifically banned in the rest of

0:24:390:24:41

the EU from the start of 2013.

0:24:410:24:43

But, shockingly, more than two years on

0:24:430:24:46

from the ban of these stalls on cruelty grounds, six EU countries

0:24:460:24:49

are still officially noncompliant with their

0:24:490:24:51

own key welfare standards.

0:24:510:24:54

The consumer absolutely has the right to know if a

0:24:540:24:57

cheap cut of pork on a supermarket shelf has been reared

0:24:570:25:00

in banned conditions.

0:25:000:25:00

Anne Main.

0:25:000:25:03

Finally, it's congratulations to parliamentary veteran John Thurso.

0:25:030:25:08

The Liberal Democrat hereditary peer quit the Upper House to stand

0:25:080:25:13

as an MP and was a member of the Commons from 2001

0:25:130:25:16

until he lost his seat last year.

0:25:160:25:21

But the former member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross will now

0:25:210:25:24

return to the Lords.

0:25:240:25:25

He's won a by-election to take a seat as

0:25:250:25:27

a Lib Dem hereditary peer.

0:25:270:25:29

It's not perhaps the toughest poll he's ever faced,

0:25:290:25:32

with only three people entitled to vote to decide who

0:25:320:25:35

should fill the vacancy.

0:25:350:25:39

And that's it for now but do join me at the same time tomorrow when,

0:25:390:25:43

among other things, we'll have the highlights from prime

0:25:430:25:45

minister's questions.

0:25:450:25:46

Until then, from me, Alicia McCarthy, goodbye.

0:25:460:25:49

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