26/04/2016 Tuesday in Parliament


26/04/2016

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Hello and welcome to Tuesday in Parliament, our look at the best

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of the day in the Commons and the Lords.

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On this programme:

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After the Home Secretary's sceptical speech, the Commons argues over

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the European Convention on Human Rights.

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Why should this house vote for something we do not believe in,

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which our constituents do not believe in?

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And it's restoring that common-sense that is the objective

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of this entire goverment.

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Are they the "crack cocaine" of gambling?

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MPs focus on the hazards of Fixed Odds Betting Terminals.

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Now is the time to look very carefully at the

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damage these machines are doing.

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And a Labour MP mocks last week's election in the House of Lords

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of a Lib Dem hereditary peer.

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No spoiled ballot papers, and miraculously,

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Madame Deputy Speaker, all three votes went

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to Viscount Thurso in the first round!

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But first, the Home Secretary has faced accusations of having gone

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"rogue" by calling for the UK to quit the European Convention

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on Human Rights, the ECHR.

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Theresa May said Britain should remain part of the European Union

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but leave the convention which, she said,

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"can bind the hands of Parliament".

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Her remarks have been defended by the Attorney General,

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Jeremy Wright, who came to the Commons to answer an urgent

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question from a Lib Dem MP who spoke about Government "confusion".

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The Home Secretary was the one who could make the speech yesterday.

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She can apparently come and make a statement tomorrow.

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She should be here today.

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Yesterday, she went rogue.

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Today, she has gone missing.

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The truth of the matter is, that there is now total confusion

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at the heart of government policy on this.

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The Home Secretary tells us that apparently, she wants to remain

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in the European Union, but leave the convention.

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The parliamentary undersecretary wants to leave the European Union,

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but remain in the convention.

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The Lord Chancellor wants to leave the European Union,

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stay in the convention,

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but ignore the jurisprudence of the court.

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Thank goodness we don't have the instability

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of a Coalition Government any more(!)

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The Attorney General said the Government had a "mandate"

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to seek reform of the ECHR.

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The Prime Minister has been clear throughout that we rule

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out absolutely nothing in getting that done.

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Although our preference is to seek to achieve reforms while remaining

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members of the European Convention.

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What the Home Secretary was doing yesterday,

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in a speech with which I suspect he broadly agreed,

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and with which I certainly found to be a very persuasive case

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for remaining within the European Union,

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what she was doing was to set out some of the difficulties

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with the human rights landscape as it stands,

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and we think that there are considerable difficulties.

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There is an absence of common sense.

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There have been cases which have demonstrated that human rights law

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is headed in the wrong direction, and it is restoring that

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is headed in the wrong direction, and it is restoring that common

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sense that is the objective of this entire government.

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The Home Secretary was absolutely clear -

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we should leave the EC HR whatever the outcome of the EU referendum.

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So what status do the Home Secretary's remarks have?

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Are they government policy?

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Do they bind the MoJ and the government?

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Or is it just the Home Office that is coming out

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of the convention?

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I have to say to the honourable gentleman that he will find

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many of his constituents and many of mine do not think

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the status quo is acceptable.

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They do wish to see reform.

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That's what we had a mandate for in the general election,

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and that's what this government will deliver.

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Doesn't this unholy model demonstrate the trouble you get

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Doesn't this unholy muddle demonstrate the trouble you get

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into when we contract out our policy to the tabloid leader writers?

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And isn't the truth of it that the simplicities that suit them

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actually override an immensely complex issue here, and the fact

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that the message our nation sends out about our commitment to human

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rights should be through an unswerving commitment

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to the convention?

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The ECHR is hard-wired into the Scotland Act.

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Everything that the Scottish Government and the Scottish

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Parliament do is governed by the EC HR, and I can assure

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Parliament do is governed by the ECHR, and I can assure

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that the British government is that, given the composition of the last

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Scottish Parliament and the likely composition of the next

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Scottish Parliament, there is no question

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of the Scottish Parliament ever giving its consents to Britain

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withdrawing from the ECHR.

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The convention on human rights has been extended way

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beyond the original remit that was drawn up, in part

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by the United Kingdom, in the immediate aftermath

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of the Second World War.

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My right honourable friend is absolutely right

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to seek to pursue changes.

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Will he do so as swiftly as possible to get the thing

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back under control?

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The Attorney and the Justice Secretary say they haven't

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ruled out the UK leaving the European Convention

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on Human Rights, the more it is sounding to me

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like a direction of travel, that that is exactly

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what they are intending to do, and I find that chilling.

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In the European Court of Human Rights, we have

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pseudo-judges, many of them political appointees, rather than

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rather than proper judges, overreaching their remit

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under the convention with ridiculous

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decisions such as votes for prisoners.

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Why should this house vote for something we do not believe in,

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which our constituents do not believe in, and for something

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which makes the Prime Minister physically sick?

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The status quo which he has described there is unacceptable

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to quite a lot of people in this country, quite a lot of people

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we all represent, and I think the case for reform is unanswerable,

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and that's what this government is going to do.

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An opposition attempt to prevent the government merging the control

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of fire and rescue services in England with the police has

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failed in the Commons.

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The Government intends handing the running of fire services

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to Police and Crime Commissioners.

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Ministers insist the operation of the two will remain separate.

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Labour tried to block the move, which is contained in

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the Police and Crime Bill.

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A Shadow Home Office minister wondered what benefits

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the elected PCCs would bring to the fire and rescue service.

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Peter Murphy, the director of public policy research

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at Nottingham business School, has argued that slipping

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into the status of a Cinderella service would only be a repeat

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of what happened the last time fire had to share

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an agenda with policing.

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I will quote him in full, because it really gets, I think,

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to the heart of the matter.

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He says: If the proposals are implemented, there

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is a very strong chance that Fire And Rescue Services would go

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back to the benign neglect that characterised the service

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of 1974-2001, when the Home Office was last responsible

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for the Fire Service.

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And would she agree with me that this move, this proposal,

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if you combine it with a 17% cuts that have already been seen

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in the service across the country, could lead to quite a risky

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situation for many vulnerable households in particular?

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If there was an attempt to combine the emergency services,

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fire and police, then we would have moved to one funding stream.

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I've categorically ruled that out, so that sort of scaremongering,

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not from the shadow minister, but from others, is actually flawed.

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There was a separate funding strain from the precept and on the police,

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and the only piece that is going to be amalgamated should the PCCs,

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just like the Metro mayors are actually doing,

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is in the back office and on the administrative side.

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To be clear, there is no suggestion that police officers

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will be fighting fires, or firefighters arresting criminals.

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The legislation simply reforms the governance of the two services,

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and ensures one democratically accountable individual has

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responsibility for the two services.

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I do believe, and I don't feel ashamed of saying this at all,

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I do believe that firefighters and police officers perform

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very different roles, and that doesn't mean to say

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that we don't value the roles of both equally, but they perform

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very different roles, and have different remits,

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and very, very differently, a police officer is seen as a legal

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person, someone who is actually there to uphold the law.

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A fireman or fire woman, or anyone who is involved

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in the rescue services is seen very, very differently.

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And again, that single employer would begin to confuse

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that in the public mind.

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It is that requirement to hold yourself to account

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in front of the electors, which I think goes to the heart

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of the success of the PCC model, and is a success that I think

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is important to extend to the Fire and Rescue Service, and I will give

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way to the honourable lady.

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I'm very grateful for the honourable gentleman giving way.

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The honourable lady opposite spoke about cuts, but Cheshire's Police

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Crime Commissioner has very successfully put more officers

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on the front line.

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He has collaborated with his local Fire and Rescue Service,

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where there will be co-located in police headquarters in Winsford,

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and it is an example of where cooperation

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is delivering more for less, very, very effectively.

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This clause, I think, gives the power for the Secretary

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of State to make a name change, but a clear name change,

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to ensure that at the next set of national elections,

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people will understand that they are voting

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for a combined role of a Police Crime Commissioner and a Fire

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Commissioner as well.

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But it must remain cemented in their minds through this

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title that those roles, although they have a combined

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leadership, remain absolutely separate and their operational

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independence is protected by under this bill.

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independence is protected under this bill.

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Now, how addictive are these machines?

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It's estimated that people in Britain spend as much

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as a billion pounds a week playing on Fixed Odds Betting Terminals,

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machines installed in betting shops that allow people to bet

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on the outcome of various games and events with fixed odds.

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The machines have proved controversial since they first

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appeared.

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Critics say it's possible to lose large amounts of money

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and the machines are leading to problem gambling.

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The latest debate on the subject was initiated by a Democratic Unionist.

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The lack of regulation of Fixed Odds Betting Terminals has

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meant that they have clustered in areas of high social deprivation.

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They are able to prey on the young and the vulnerable.

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There is strong evidence that the high-stakes

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on the Fixed Odds Betting Terminals and the low supervision environment

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of a bookmaker has led to and increased problem with gambling.

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In my constituency of Glasgow East, there are a particularly high

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number of betting shops within a concentrated area.

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It's been suggested that the disproportionate impact

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that Fixed Odds Betting Terminals have on poorer and more vulnerable

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communities due to the massive overprovision in those areas,

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with some streets in the East End of Glasgow having as many as four

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bookmakers in the same street within a few hundred

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yards of each other, with multiple units in each shop.

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A Labour MP said there was a connection between crime

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and Fixed Odds Betting Terminals, or FOBATeeS.

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Seven out of ten MPs, cross-party, agree with me and others that

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FOBATeeS are a dangerous pastime.

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The government is due to launch its triennial review.

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Now is the time to look very carefully at the damage

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that these machines are doing.

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The gambling commission has said if they were setting the stake

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now, they would advise against the ?100 stake,

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purely on precautionary measures.

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I do understand the instinct of this government,

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a Conservative government, is not to give in to

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the nanny state urges.

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It's the sort of argument I would make on a fairly

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regular basis.

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But it does seem to be odd that we might impose a sugar tax,

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that we have ever more draconian measures against smokers,

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at the self same time that we allow these high-stakes gambling machines

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to proliferate in such a loosely regulated environment.

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So I would ask the minister now to work with responsible operators

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in the gambling industry, of whom there are very many,

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to reduce the FOBATee stake.

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These machines are already very heavily regulated.

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Every aspect of their operation is controlled.

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They must be licensed.

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The maximum stake is controlled.

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The maximum stake is controlled.

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The maximum pay-out is controlled.

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The fact is that gambling is available in many forms,

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and there is no control over, let's say, how much anyone can stake

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on a five-furlong flat race which is over in less than a minute.

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There is no control over how many scratchcards

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a 16-year-old can buy...

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I will give way, very briefly.

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He seems to be making a very principled argument

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that we shouldn't have a ?100 limit on FOBATeeS, that why should

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we have that if you can bet ?1,000 on a horse race,

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or ?10,000 on a horse race, or walk into a casino and put

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X amount on whatever, what is the point of having a ?100

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maximum stake on a FOBATee?

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His argument is clearly to remove the maximum stake and allow freedom

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His argument is clearly to remove the maximum stake and allow freedom

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His argument is clearly to remove the maximum stake and allow freedom

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to stake as much as you would like.

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Well, the factors that very few people bet ?100 a stake.

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In fact, only around one in 100 customers even stake over ?50,

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and the average stake on a machine is just ?5.13.

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It is about location, more than anything else.

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It's about the proximity of these machines to people who may be

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vulnerable to developing a gambling habit, and falling foul

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of their propensity to gamble too much by going into a betting shop

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and losing more money than they can afford to lose.

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The Minister said the Government has brought in measures to end

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unsupervised high stake gambling on Fixed Odds Betting Terminals.

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The industry and the gambling commission introduced additional

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measures to further the social responsibility agenda at this time,

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which I will touch on shortly.

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The government subsequently conducted an evaluation

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of the regulations on B2 gaming machines, which was published

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earlier this year.

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In summary, there have been a significant reduction

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in the number of stakes above ?50, and there are indications that

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as a result of these regulations, players on B2 gaming machines may

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now be thinking about making a more conscious choice to control

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their playing behaviour.

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You're watching our round-up of the day

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in the Commons and the Lords.

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Still to come:

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Are operations in the NHS being denied to people who smoke

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and who're overweight?

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More accurate information on the number of EU migrants living

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in the UK will be published ahead of the referendum.

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That's the promise that's been given to a committee of MPs.

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But the national statistician John Pullinger said accurate figures

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were hard to come by, because of 'red tape'

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in government departments.

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Meanwhile the head of the UK Statistics Authority

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defended his clarification on figure used by the 'Vote Leave' campaign

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to the chairman of the public administration committee,

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who's also a board member of 'Vote Leave'.

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At the moment, we have our international migration estimates

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based on the international passenger survey which was never designed

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for this purpose but has proved itself pretty robust when tested

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against external figures.

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If we had had access to these data sets, I would be much freer to go

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to the Home Office and get

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individual data such as it is on exits and incoming data.

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At the moment that requires a protracted

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negotiation, not for a bad reason but because my colleagues in the

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Home Office have a particular set of legal requirements around what data

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they can share with people.

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There is not an unambiguous clarity that I am someone they can

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share data with.

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If I want figures about immigration I have to go to

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DWP re issuing national insurance numbers.

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I have to go to HMRC to understand which foreign born people are

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on the system somewhere, either because they are paying tax or

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claiming benefits and I would go to the health service to find out how

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many foreign people are using the health service.

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To understand immigration I need to put together a jigsaw

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of different sources.

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Can I just declare an interest as a director of Vote Leave which you

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may or may not have been aware of when you issued a mild rebuke

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to Vote Leave about the use of ?350 million per

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week as an indication of what it costs the UK to be a member of

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the EU.

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Can I just also clarify the 19.1 billion figure in table 9/9 is a

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valid figure nevertheless, if it is surrounded by sufficient

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explanation?

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Your term is mild rebuke.

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The letter that I wrote is not suggesting that 19.1 billion is not

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the gross figure.

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Indeed I wrote to you earlier setting out the figures.

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My concern was that for example the

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poster that said something of the form we should stop sending ?350

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million a week to the EU and spend it on our NHS instead, could be

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interpreted as implying the gross figure was in fact the net figure.

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Mr Gove is very careful in his speeches to

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say we send 19.1 billion but a rebate of 4.4 billion comes

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to us and 4.8 billion comes back to us.

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It was that I was wanting to draw attention to.

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As discussion then returned to counting migration figures,

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the various indicators of who came to the UK and how long

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they stayed were compared.

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It left one MP feeling dismayed.

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We're really not in control of this.

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We really don't have the information about who is coming in and who's

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working, who is staying and who is leaving because all the answers

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from the three of you have left me feeling

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that we are just not in control of what is going

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on in our own country.

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We can check now the numbers we're getting in our published figures

0:18:530:18:55

against the number of people actually residing in different

0:18:550:18:58

parts of the country so we are continually checking

0:18:580:19:00

but it is an uncertain science.

0:19:000:19:03

So the answer is yes, we're not in control

0:19:030:19:05

and we do not know exactly what is happening.

0:19:050:19:07

We don't know exactly.

0:19:080:19:08

Thank you.

0:19:080:19:11

But he promised more accurate information

0:19:110:19:13

would be published in May - ahead of June's In/Out

0:19:130:19:15

EU referendum.

0:19:150:19:21

As we reported last week, the former Lib Dem MP John Thurso

0:19:210:19:24

is back in Parliament.

0:19:240:19:25

Viscount Thurso has successfully completed the procedure to win

0:19:250:19:30

a place as an elected hereditary member of the Lords.

0:19:300:19:32

Every time a hereditary peer dies an election takes place.

0:19:320:19:36

But the voters are just the existing hereditary members of the party

0:19:360:19:39

of the deceased peer.

0:19:390:19:42

In the Commons, the former Justice Minister David Hanson

0:19:420:19:44

thought the process faintly absurd.

0:19:440:19:47

He brought in a Bill scrapping the provision,

0:19:470:19:50

that's been in place for 17 years, allowing 90 hereditary peers

0:19:500:19:53

to continue to sit in the Lords.

0:19:530:19:55

He mentioned some of the more unusual aspects of the

0:19:550:19:58

election of Lord Thurso.

0:19:580:20:03

The electorate that held power to elect the noble peer in

0:20:030:20:06

this House of Lords was in this case, Mr Speaker, three people.

0:20:060:20:11

This, Mr Speaker, is the 21st century.

0:20:110:20:14

The three remaining Lib Dem hereditary peers

0:20:140:20:16

were the sole electorate in this House.

0:20:160:20:21

Each hopeful in this election had to write 75 words

0:20:210:20:24

about why they should be

0:20:240:20:26

trusted with the seat in this Parliament.

0:20:260:20:30

The eventual winner's manifesto was excellent for the environment.

0:20:300:20:33

It was a blank piece of paper.

0:20:330:20:38

For the gang of three people who voted for him,

0:20:380:20:41

there were no words saying what he would do

0:20:410:20:43

and why he would do it.

0:20:430:20:48

I am pleased to tell the House that unlike the national

0:20:480:20:51

declining voter trend, there was a 100% turnout in this action.

0:20:510:20:55

No spoiled ballot papers and miraculously, all three

0:20:550:20:59

votes went to Viscount Thurso in the first round.

0:20:590:21:04

The count, Madame Deputy Speaker, took 24 hours which is not

0:21:040:21:10

quite Houghton and Washington South...

0:21:100:21:12

But still resulted in a member of Parliament.

0:21:120:21:15

Houghton and Sunderland South being the Commons constituency that

0:21:150:21:18

at every General Election counts its votes faster

0:21:180:21:20

than everywhere else.

0:21:200:21:23

Mr Hanson's Bill was given initial approval but won't become law due

0:21:230:21:26

to a lack of Parliamentary time.

0:21:260:21:32

Growing numbers of smokers and seriously overweight people

0:21:320:21:35

are being denied operations as they are 'soft targets'

0:21:350:21:38

for money-saving in the National Health Service.

0:21:380:21:41

That's the claim of the Royal College of Surgeons,

0:21:410:21:45

which said such restrictions were wrong and left those

0:21:450:21:47

affected in distress.

0:21:470:21:50

The Royal College said the refusal to do operations was

0:21:500:21:52

happening in more and more areas across England.

0:21:520:21:57

In the Lords, a Health Minister said he didn't support what he termed any

0:21:570:22:00

'arbitrary restrictions' on the treatment of patients.

0:22:000:22:04

However, there are often sound clinical reasons to

0:22:040:22:06

encourage patients to lose weight or stop smoking.

0:22:060:22:10

For example, to get the best clinical benefit from joint

0:22:100:22:13

replacement surgery.

0:22:130:22:15

CCGs should support patients to reduce their tobacco

0:22:150:22:17

consumption or weight and signpost them to appropriate services.

0:22:170:22:23

Can I ask the Minister what action he intends to take against clinical

0:22:230:22:26

commissioning groups who are commissioning services based on

0:22:260:22:32

arbitrary, discriminatory decisions rather than on evidence.

0:22:320:22:39

The whole purpose of local commissioning groups was that

0:22:390:22:41

they would be guided and directed by local clinicians so they must be

0:22:410:22:44

allowed to set their own local priorities.

0:22:440:22:49

It would not be right for me to direct commissioning

0:22:490:22:52

groups how to behaviour.

0:22:520:22:56

It is clear these blanket bans are nothing more

0:22:560:22:59

than crude rationing and causing distress to patients.

0:22:590:23:03

Will he issue instructions to CCGs they should not

0:23:030:23:05

embark on these blanket bans?

0:23:060:23:10

Will he agree that programmes to support

0:23:100:23:13

weight management and smoking cessation should be part of the

0:23:130:23:15

treatment programme rather than being used as a barrier to

0:23:150:23:18

treatment?

0:23:180:23:22

Yes, my Lord.

0:23:220:23:24

He has really quoted verbatim from the recommendations

0:23:240:23:34

the Royal College of Surgeons put in their report.

0:23:340:23:36

I agree with him completely.

0:23:360:23:37

As a surgeon I had cause to cancel or delay operations of patients

0:23:370:23:40

who were obese or were smokers.

0:23:400:23:42

Those decisions were based on clinical

0:23:420:23:43

grounds from the knowledge I had of the individual patients.

0:23:430:23:46

Clinical Commissioning Groups can give

0:23:460:23:48

guidance but they should not be providing diktats.

0:23:480:23:52

What assurance will the Minister gave that clinical

0:23:520:23:55

decisions will be left to those who have the best interest

0:23:550:23:59

of the patient at hand and know the patient?

0:23:590:24:03

Does the Minister accept that

0:24:030:24:06

the reductions in expenditure of public health of ?200 million a year

0:24:060:24:08

may make it harder to reduce the

0:24:080:24:13

prevalence of tobacco smoking and obesity and in these

0:24:130:24:18

circumstances patients who need cessation

0:24:180:24:20

services may find it difficult to get the support they need.

0:24:200:24:25

They may need more guidance and support on

0:24:250:24:29

how to challenge the decision of CCGs if they are being discriminated

0:24:290:24:32

against unfairly and in breach of national guidelines.

0:24:320:24:36

Does the Minister not agree that everybody in

0:24:360:24:38

this country must know that smoking and being overweight is bad for

0:24:380:24:41

them?

0:24:410:24:47

Does he not think individuals should be encouraged to take more

0:24:470:24:50

responsibility for their health rather than less?

0:24:500:24:52

Clearly there is a balance between the obligations of

0:24:520:24:55

individuals to take responsibility for themselves and the obligation of

0:24:550:24:59

society to take responsibility.

0:24:590:25:02

Getting that balance right is what has

0:25:020:25:04

characterised the success we

0:25:040:25:07

have had in this country in reducing smoking and we hope it will have

0:25:070:25:10

the same regarding obesity.

0:25:100:25:11

He said the obesity strategy would be coming out soon.

0:25:110:25:14

What is his interpretation of soon?

0:25:140:25:16

Before long.

0:25:160:25:24

Lord Prior causing some humour in the House of Lords.

0:25:240:25:27

And that's it for this programme.

0:25:270:25:28

Do join me for our next round-up.

0:25:280:25:30

Until then, from me Keith Macdougall, goodbye.

0:25:300:25:37

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