01/02/2016 Victoria Derbyshire


01/02/2016

Similar Content

Browse content similar to 01/02/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

I'm Joanna Gosling in for Victoria Derbyshire,

:00:07.:00:09.

Nearly ?5,000 on clothes, hundreds of pounds on trainers,

:00:10.:00:15.

spas at health resorts and a first class ticket to New York -

:00:16.:00:19.

just some of the stuff individual clients at Kids Company were given,

:00:20.:00:22.

according to a new report by MPs which blames an "extraordinary

:00:23.:00:25.

catalogue of failures" for the collapse of the charity.

:00:26.:00:29.

I'm not sorry I bought the kids nice things.

:00:30.:00:35.

The only thing I'm sorry about is I didn't raise enough money.

:00:36.:00:43.

A second inquest into the death of a teenage army recruit

:00:44.:00:47.

at Deepcut Barracks more than 20 years ago opens today.

:00:48.:00:50.

The father of 18-year-old Private Cheryl James tells us

:00:51.:00:52.

It is the last chance, and that is why I have said that on the appeal

:00:53.:01:07.

full if these people don't have the courage to step up and speak now, I

:01:08.:01:11.

don't think they will have another chance.

:01:12.:01:13.

And we'll meet two young transgender men who've recently returned

:01:14.:01:15.

to their home country of Jamaica to reveal their new identities

:01:16.:01:18.

We're on BBC Two and the BBC News Channel until 11 this morning.

:01:19.:01:34.

Throughout the programme we'll bring you the latest breaking news

:01:35.:01:36.

And, as always, we want to hear from you on all the stories

:01:37.:01:41.

Texts will be charged at the standard network rate.

:01:42.:01:47.

And of course you can watch the programme online wherever

:01:48.:01:49.

you are via the bbc news app or our website bbc.co.uk/victoria.

:01:50.:01:55.

First this morning, there was an "extraordinary

:01:56.:02:01.

catalogue of failures of governance and control at every level" -

:02:02.:02:03.

that's what a committee of MPs has concluded about the collapse of Kids

:02:04.:02:06.

They blame those running the charity, auditors,

:02:07.:02:09.

regulators and Government ministers and say that Government

:02:10.:02:11.

money was released in an "unjustifiable" way.

:02:12.:02:16.

There are a number of claims in the report about the amount

:02:17.:02:20.

of money that was dished out to some of the kids and young adults that

:02:21.:02:24.

One person was given more than ?4,700 to spend on clothes

:02:25.:02:29.

Someone else was bought shoes which cost ?305.

:02:30.:02:35.

But it wasn't just assistance with the wardrobe.

:02:36.:02:37.

Some who came to Kids Company were given special spa treatments

:02:38.:02:40.

at the luxury health resort Champneys.

:02:41.:02:41.

It was even claimed that they splashed out on first

:02:42.:02:46.

class flight for one client to go see his girlfriend in New York

:02:47.:02:49.

and for somebody else to fly to Ibiza.

:02:50.:02:53.

The former trustees of Kids Company have condemned the report

:02:54.:02:55.

as inaccurate, unbalanced and irresponsible.

:02:56.:03:00.

for an interview this morning, but she's declined.

:03:01.:03:04.

We also approached BBC presenter Alan Yentob,

:03:05.:03:08.

who was the chair of Kids Company trustees,

:03:09.:03:11.

On Wednesday evening you will be able to watch

:03:12.:03:23.

In her own words - in a documentary on bbc one called

:03:24.:03:32.

'Camila's Kids Company: The Inside Story' -

:03:33.:03:33.

It's a good question, who's to blame.

:03:34.:03:42.

That the media, the politicians, engaged in.

:03:43.:03:51.

And I was supposed to be killed off.

:03:52.:03:56.

I'm not sorry I gave the kids money, I'm not sorry I bought them nice

:03:57.:04:13.

things, I'm not sorry I fought for them.

:04:14.:04:18.

The only thing I'm sorry about, I didn't raise enough money.

:04:19.:04:21.

What do you want me to be sorry about?

:04:22.:04:26.

I'm trying every which way to save our staff's jobs.

:04:27.:05:05.

I'm hoping, through a campaign, I can turn redundancy money,

:05:06.:05:08.

that they might give, into money to continue running.

:05:09.:05:16.

Because the amount they're giving, to make the staff redundant,

:05:17.:05:19.

is exactly what I need to be able to continue.

:05:20.:05:24.

You're going to be doing something behind the scenes?

:05:25.:05:26.

Because if you're asking me, the correct law is to take care

:05:27.:05:44.

If the law of the land is not correct, we have

:05:45.:05:55.

It's a chess game, I'm playing chess with psychopaths.

:05:56.:06:10.

Someone might think, you're an equally big nutter!

:06:11.:06:13.

But my nuttiness is in the service of children so it's OK!

:06:14.:06:25.

You can see that programme in full on Wednesday at 9pm.

:06:26.:06:28.

With us here in the studio to discuss this further

:06:29.:06:30.

is Bernard Jenkin, the Conservative MP who chairs

:06:31.:06:32.

the Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs Committee

:06:33.:06:34.

Esther Kellen, who was Kids Company director of services

:06:35.:06:45.

And Ka-Hal Morrow, whose son benefited

:06:46.:06:54.

You saw Camila Batmanghelidjh saying she is not sorry forgiving the kids

:06:55.:07:06.

nice things. What you think? She had a fantastic mission. She had great

:07:07.:07:11.

vision. But she must've been very to work with. If you are running a

:07:12.:07:16.

large charity, you have to have some discipline. You have to be able to

:07:17.:07:20.

work with others and accept the discipline of others, and you have

:07:21.:07:25.

to accept that you are not the big deal, the big deal is the reputation

:07:26.:07:29.

of the charity, the security of the finances of the charity and every

:07:30.:07:34.

body has got to work as a team, and I think the trustees gave themselves

:07:35.:07:40.

an impossible job I taking this person on, and there was one trusty

:07:41.:07:45.

that fought and fought to try to bring some financial sense to this,

:07:46.:07:52.

he resigned in March. I think there are many, many lessons the trustees

:07:53.:07:56.

of many charities, because very often, the founder of a charity is a

:07:57.:08:01.

powerful and charismatic Alison, but as the charity grows, particularly

:08:02.:08:05.

if it is taking on responsibility for so many employees in so many

:08:06.:08:11.

vulnerable people, one of the things we were recommending is that Ofsted

:08:12.:08:14.

should inspect all youth charities. Ofsted came into this charity once

:08:15.:08:19.

and was never invited back again because it was probably going to

:08:20.:08:23.

make some uncomfortable truthss available, which people didn't want

:08:24.:08:28.

to hear. When you say it was never invited back again, is it down to

:08:29.:08:34.

charities to invite them? There is no kind of formal inspection, and

:08:35.:08:37.

maybe that should change, particularly if Government is

:08:38.:08:42.

handing out large sums of money to charity is looking after vulnerable

:08:43.:08:46.

people. You talk about an extraordinary catalogue of failures

:08:47.:08:50.

of governance and control at every level, trustees, auditors,

:08:51.:08:57.

regulators, Government. In the end, who should have been putting their

:08:58.:09:01.

hand up and sorting this out? You mentioned there was one trusty but

:09:02.:09:07.

that trusty resigned. It is very hard for the chair of the trustees,

:09:08.:09:14.

but unfortunately, in any organisation, the chair sets the

:09:15.:09:19.

tone, and this was Alan Yentob, and he will feel terribly blamed this

:09:20.:09:23.

morning for this report. It is not about blame, it is about learning.

:09:24.:09:29.

Clearly there was a lack of sufficient understanding on the

:09:30.:09:33.

trustees about what this charity was about. There was no psychotherapist

:09:34.:09:39.

or psychologist on the trustees, and yet this was an organisation the

:09:40.:09:41.

delivered therapy and psychological care. There was no expert from the

:09:42.:09:48.

youth sector on the trustees, and yet this was delivering critical

:09:49.:09:51.

services in the youth sector. These are the sort of lessons that

:09:52.:09:55.

trustees of other charities need to learn, that they need to have the

:09:56.:09:59.

breadth of skills available to them, and they need to be able to have the

:10:00.:10:05.

conversations, there should be an organisation in which employees who

:10:06.:10:07.

feel concerned about things can raise things right up to the trustee

:10:08.:10:14.

level. And the sense we got was that things were not talked about. Before

:10:15.:10:20.

we move on, you said that this shouldn't be about blame but about

:10:21.:10:23.

learning, but you have also said that you don't think these

:10:24.:10:28.

charities, these trustees should be able to be trustees in the future?

:10:29.:10:32.

We are making an issue of support here, that somebody should

:10:33.:10:37.

adjudicate. We have disqualification of company directors in company law,

:10:38.:10:42.

and in fact the charities commission is taking on new powers to be able

:10:43.:10:47.

to disqualify charity trustees in the same way. What we say is we

:10:48.:10:52.

welcome that. We are not making any judgment about any individual

:10:53.:10:57.

trustee in this case, that would not be fast. But you think that what

:10:58.:11:00.

went on here should be enough to prevent these trustees being

:11:01.:11:06.

trustees again? No, we are not saying that. We are not a court. We

:11:07.:11:13.

can't adjudicate on that. What we are pointing out is what should have

:11:14.:11:16.

been known, what should have been learned while the charity was

:11:17.:11:20.

capable of surviving and was not learned, and the learning goes to

:11:21.:11:23.

the Charity Commission, to the firms of advisers. The accountant told us

:11:24.:11:26.

this charity was living on a knife edge. That wasn't really apparent

:11:27.:11:30.

from the audit letters that he produced every year for the charity.

:11:31.:11:35.

That message should have been taken to the charity trustees year after

:11:36.:11:39.

year, you cannot go on like. Why were there no reserves in the

:11:40.:11:43.

charity? Partly because the policy of the charity was to spend the

:11:44.:11:46.

money as soon as it came in, that is why she was always running out of

:11:47.:11:50.

money, because she just spent it and nobody could control what she spent.

:11:51.:11:54.

Very distressing for people working in the charity who were doing so

:11:55.:11:59.

much good work for children and vulnerable young adults, and I think

:12:00.:12:04.

the other thing we have tried not to lose in our report is this charity

:12:05.:12:11.

wasn't just a disaster. It was filling a very important gap, and I

:12:12.:12:14.

think the Government needs to take that on as well and carry on funding

:12:15.:12:19.

charities this sector. We are going to speak to someone who

:12:20.:12:23.

has benefited in just a moment, but just a word on others who you have

:12:24.:12:26.

basically said failed here effectively. Government giving a

:12:27.:12:32.

huge amount of money to Kids Company. ?42 million over ten years.

:12:33.:12:43.

Could you point your finger at? The chief executive had the ability to

:12:44.:12:47.

impress Ministers and finish up on platforms with prime Ministers,

:12:48.:12:52.

attending the Conservative Party conference, and she made her charity

:12:53.:12:59.

very important to successive Government Looe, and that obviously

:13:00.:13:02.

distorted the perception of government. Other charities feel

:13:03.:13:10.

bitterly angry that someone could walk into Downing Street and just

:13:11.:13:13.

pull this money out of the Government when they had to fill in

:13:14.:13:16.

forms and go through the competitive process. I'm afraid the word we use

:13:17.:13:20.

is unethical. What we're recommending is that where a charity

:13:21.:13:25.

executive has formed a close relationship or a political

:13:26.:13:30.

relationship with ministers, those ministers should not be involved in

:13:31.:13:34.

making decisions about funding for such a charity. They should recuse

:13:35.:13:38.

themselves, it is called conflict-of-interest, in the same

:13:39.:13:41.

way that we are not really happy that Alan Yentob's

:13:42.:13:47.

conflict-of-interest were addressed properly by the BBC Trust, but one

:13:48.:13:52.

of my colleagues has described it as absolution by resignation. Somehow,

:13:53.:13:58.

something in the BBC governance has been brushed under the carpet by the

:13:59.:14:05.

departure of Mr Yentob, when really it is a similar situation, a

:14:06.:14:09.

long-standing senior executive, widely respected, nobody wants to

:14:10.:14:13.

challenge him, but how did he finish up in a studio looking over the

:14:14.:14:16.

shoulder of the producer while Camila Batmanghelidjh was being

:14:17.:14:20.

interviewed, and nobody has suggested that really the output of

:14:21.:14:23.

the BBC was distorted by that, but what is the attitude in the senior

:14:24.:14:28.

management of the BBC that allowed that to occur, made it seem all

:14:29.:14:32.

right to him? And that is a matter for the trustees of the BBC. What

:14:33.:14:35.

Matt let's go to somebody who's family

:14:36.:14:46.

did benefit. Case Morrow, your nine-year-old son did benefit from

:14:47.:14:50.

counselling through Kids Company. What is your perspective? I think it

:14:51.:14:57.

is a tragedy that it has closed. I can't comment on the broader

:14:58.:15:00.

picture, but as a parent, what they did was fantastic. About this time

:15:01.:15:06.

last year, my son had basically a nervous breakdown, and Kids Company,

:15:07.:15:12.

we had somebody on site who was just amazing stop she provided

:15:13.:15:17.

unconditional love, therapy, support. The school are brilliant as

:15:18.:15:21.

well, but Kids Company were outside of that, and the kids saw that. This

:15:22.:15:26.

time last year, my son said the only people he trusted were me and his

:15:27.:15:30.

teddy bears, and six month later, he said the only people he trusted were

:15:31.:15:34.

me, his teddy bears and the lady from Kids Company. And is that helps

:15:35.:15:38.

that you couldn't have got from anywhere else? Social services were

:15:39.:15:52.

fabulous. Camhs were involved, they provide mental health services. But

:15:53.:15:57.

the support that she gave was amazing.

:15:58.:16:02.

Esther Kellen, do you think this report is fair? I think it is fair

:16:03.:16:10.

to a large extent. The good work that Kids Company has been doing has

:16:11.:16:15.

been recognised, which was reiterated by that parents just now.

:16:16.:16:20.

We must not forget that. Today is a difficult day for all the young

:16:21.:16:23.

people served by Kids Company and the staff who have lost their jobs

:16:24.:16:27.

as a result of it. I was slightly anxious about the finances a year

:16:28.:16:31.

ago in November when we were paid late and I realised there were no

:16:32.:16:37.

reserves. Asking questions about its just was not the done thing. What do

:16:38.:16:45.

you mean by that? Was that the perception that you had? Did you try

:16:46.:16:50.

and raise it and find out that was the case? Yes, I tried to raise it

:16:51.:16:55.

and I was reassured. Don't worry, I will get the money. Who did you

:16:56.:17:02.

raise it with? I asked Camilla about the money and the director of

:17:03.:17:06.

finance about the late payment of the salaries and the directors of

:17:07.:17:11.

HR. What can we do about this? But we were reassured that Camilla would

:17:12.:17:16.

pull the magic out of the hat and make sure that the money was there.

:17:17.:17:23.

In retrospect, do you wish you had taken those concerns further? Yes, I

:17:24.:17:33.

expect so. Maybe I should have. In Bristol I only ever saw two trustees

:17:34.:17:37.

visiting the organisation in Bristol. We did have 100 staff in

:17:38.:17:42.

Bristol and six sites. I would have liked it if the trustees had taken

:17:43.:17:46.

more interested in what we were doing over here. In a way we were

:17:47.:17:50.

quite separate from the London set up, you know. We ran quite a tight

:17:51.:18:00.

ship, I would say. Explain that. I knew where every penny went. We were

:18:01.:18:08.

not handing out money to young people as has been suggested in

:18:09.:18:12.

media reports. Every penny was accounted for. Were you spending

:18:13.:18:19.

large sums of money on clothing and shoes and first-class tickets? We

:18:20.:18:23.

were not, absolutely not. I felt that was not the right thing to do.

:18:24.:18:28.

What we did do was provide food bags for children and young people on the

:18:29.:18:34.

Friday. If somebody had a hole in their shoes and it was raining

:18:35.:18:37.

outside and there was no other pair of shoes, I might take them to a

:18:38.:18:42.

cheap shoe shop and buy them a pair of shoes, because you and I do not

:18:43.:18:46.

want to walk around with shoes with holes in. I think there is nothing

:18:47.:18:50.

wrong with buying a young person a pair of shoes but it would be a

:18:51.:18:55.

cheap pair from a cheap shot. People getting in touch on this one. This

:18:56.:19:00.

tweet, it disturbing that the Government is more concerned about

:19:01.:19:05.

the finances of Kids Company than the Google accounts. What do you say

:19:06.:19:10.

to that? Well, I show people's concern about the Google accounts. I

:19:11.:19:14.

am struck that the Italians have got more money from Google than we have

:19:15.:19:18.

but that is not the responsibility of my committee. I can understand

:19:19.:19:23.

why people are feeling that. John says I expect she is not sorry for

:19:24.:19:27.

buying things for children but she should be sorry for the way she

:19:28.:19:30.

managed the company with the taxpayers' money she was given. And

:19:31.:19:36.

this tweet, we need to support families. Charities and their

:19:37.:19:40.

founders should not be untouchable. I should say that Camilla

:19:41.:19:49.

Batmanghelidjh said your report was bias and rumour and the only

:19:50.:19:52.

rigorous fact based investigation was with the police. The police need

:19:53.:19:59.

evidence beyond all reasonable doubt. She is referring to the

:20:00.:20:03.

unsubstantiated allegations of sexual misconduct, which were the

:20:04.:20:09.

straw that broke the camel's back at the end of the life of the charity.

:20:10.:20:13.

We do not rely on police investigations for the safeguarding

:20:14.:20:16.

of children in schools or in residential homes. There is proper

:20:17.:20:23.

inspection. That is why one of the lessons here is that there needs to

:20:24.:20:26.

be proper inspection of charities like Kids Company, perhaps by Ofsted

:20:27.:20:33.

or the Care Quality Commission of the NHS, to make sure there is

:20:34.:20:37.

proper safeguarding. The lack of a prosecution is not sufficient

:20:38.:20:41.

assurance that safeguarding was sufficient in this charity. Do you

:20:42.:20:44.

believe that lessons have actually been learned and anything will

:20:45.:20:52.

change as a result? This report into Kids Company and our report last

:20:53.:20:58.

week into fundraising by some charities... I think this has been a

:20:59.:21:02.

very tough year for high profile large charities. It has done a lot

:21:03.:21:06.

of damage to the reputation of charities. These two events. I am

:21:07.:21:14.

sure that charity trustees and the charities commission and the

:21:15.:21:17.

Government are already learning. We are going to have a new fundraising

:21:18.:21:23.

regulator for example. The whole attitude of the Charity commission

:21:24.:21:25.

will be transformed by this. The real message to charity trustees is

:21:26.:21:31.

that you cannot rely on anybody else. There is no substitute for

:21:32.:21:36.

your own judgment as a trustee. And if you depend upon others to mark

:21:37.:21:41.

your homework then you are not a good charity trustee. You should be

:21:42.:21:45.

satisfied in your own heart and conscience that you know what is

:21:46.:21:48.

going on in your charity, that people trust you, there is a

:21:49.:21:52.

trusting atmosphere. You heard just now that there was not an atmosphere

:21:53.:21:57.

of trust in Kids Company. The trustees must have known that. The

:21:58.:22:01.

meetings of trustees must have been stilted and rather on relaxed

:22:02.:22:09.

occasions. -- unrelaxed occasions. If that is happening there must be

:22:10.:22:13.

something deeply wrong. The organisations are therefore trustees

:22:14.:22:17.

to go to them when they need help. To say they are not happy about the

:22:18.:22:21.

way charity is being run and they need help. That should be perfectly

:22:22.:22:25.

legitimate. Maybe the charities commission needs more powers to

:22:26.:22:29.

support trustees in their role. Thank you. And thank you for your

:22:30.:22:33.

comments on that as well. Thank you for joining us today. Still to come:

:22:34.:22:48.

We meet two young transgender men who have recently returned to their

:22:49.:22:54.

home country of Jamaica to reveal their new identities to their

:22:55.:22:57.

families and we will find out how they got on. First, summary of the

:22:58.:23:03.

main news this morning. MPs investigating the charity

:23:04.:23:07.

Kids Company say an extraordinary catalogue of failures led

:23:08.:23:09.

to its collapse last year. Their report blames those

:23:10.:23:12.

running the charity, its trustees, auditors,

:23:13.:23:13.

regulators and ministers. Its former chief executive,

:23:14.:23:18.

Camilla Batmanghelidjh, has called the document

:23:19.:23:20.

a product of bias and rumour. Earlier chair of MPs spoke to us.

:23:21.:23:38.

The policy was to spend the money as soon as it came in and this is why

:23:39.:23:42.

they ran out of money because she just spent it. Nobody could control

:23:43.:23:46.

what they spend. Very distressing for people working in the charity

:23:47.:23:50.

who were doing so much good work for children and vulnerable young

:23:51.:23:51.

adults. David Cameron and European Council

:23:52.:23:53.

President Donald Tusk are set for a day of talks about the UK's

:23:54.:23:56.

renegotiated membership of the EU today, which Mr Tusk has

:23:57.:23:59.

described as crucial. A meeting last night

:24:00.:24:01.

ended without a deal, though a Downing Street source said

:24:02.:24:03.

there had been a breakthrough on restricting benefits

:24:04.:24:05.

for EU migrants. A new inquest will open this

:24:06.:24:09.

afternoon into the death of a teenage soldier

:24:10.:24:12.

at Deepcut Barracks, Private Cheryl James was one of four

:24:13.:24:16.

young recruits to die at the Surrey The inquest will hear

:24:17.:24:21.

evidence from her father. I don't underestimate it and I wish

:24:22.:24:35.

we could just get on with it. I am not in the least fazed by it. It is

:24:36.:24:40.

time the stories were told in a court to be properly addressed.

:24:41.:24:43.

America's presidential hopefuls face their first electoral test

:24:44.:24:48.

tonight with a series of votes in Iowa.

:24:49.:24:50.

The mid-western state will be the first to choose who should be

:24:51.:24:53.

the candidates from both the Republican and Democratic

:24:54.:24:55.

Polls suggest both Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton hold narrow

:24:56.:25:07.

The World Health Organisation will hold an emergency meeting today

:25:08.:25:12.

to decide if the outbreak of the Zika virus should be declared

:25:13.:25:14.

The mosquito-borne virus which has been linked to thousands of severe

:25:15.:25:18.

birth defects in Brazil could affect up to 4 million people this year.

:25:19.:25:22.

Books of condolence will be opened for Sir Terry Wogan this morning

:25:23.:25:25.

He died after a short illness yesterday at the age of 77.

:25:26.:25:29.

The mayor said the books would allow people to pay tribute

:25:30.:25:32.

to a true son of Limerick and a broadcasting institution.

:25:33.:25:37.

Now we can catch up with all of the sport. News of John Terry's future

:25:38.:25:47.

at Chelsea? Bring us up to date. Yes, not much of the future because

:25:48.:25:51.

the Chelsea captain has just a few months left in English football, it

:25:52.:25:54.

looks like. He says the club will not renew his contract and he will

:25:55.:25:58.

look to play abroad at the end of the season. But the club says that

:25:59.:26:02.

situation is pretty fluid and it could change. He could be off today

:26:03.:26:06.

of course. Very unlikely but the transfer window is still open until

:26:07.:26:13.

tonight. Premier League spending is set to break ?1 billion in a single

:26:14.:26:17.

season for the first time. It looks like a tug-of-war already today over

:26:18.:26:20.

at Saido Berahino, the West Brom striker. That is an early story on

:26:21.:26:25.

what is always a frantic day at the BBC Sport Centre. Newcastle bid ?21

:26:26.:26:30.

million for the striker yesterday and Stoke could be after him as

:26:31.:26:34.

well. We will see how that develops. Matt Elliott is with me just after

:26:35.:26:38.

ten o'clock, the former Leicester and Scotland defender, to talk all

:26:39.:26:41.

things football and you can talk about Johanna Konta as well if he

:26:42.:26:49.

likes but I doubt it. She had a fantastic run at the Australian Open

:26:50.:26:53.

but she has left the Fed Cup tree in a hole because she has withdrawn

:26:54.:26:59.

from the trip to Israel with an intestinal problem. I will have that

:27:00.:27:04.

and more stories just after ten o'clock. Thank you.

:27:05.:27:07.

Talks between David Cameron and the European Council President,

:27:08.:27:11.

Donald Tusk, about stopping benefits for migrants from the rest

:27:12.:27:13.

of the EU, have ended without agreement.

:27:14.:27:18.

The negotiations resume today and the next 24 hours have been

:27:19.:27:25.

described as crucial. Our political guru Norman Smith is here to tell us

:27:26.:27:29.

the latest. One newspaper said there had been a breakthrough and others

:27:30.:27:35.

are saying no. Maybe in 24 hours so give us clarity. What we can say is

:27:36.:27:40.

we are reaching Showtime in terms of the negotiations. David Cameron

:27:41.:27:44.

clearly wants to get this nailed down quickly. He does not want its

:27:45.:27:49.

dragging on for ever and a day. He would like to have the referendum

:27:50.:27:53.

this year, in part because he does not want his whole second term as

:27:54.:27:57.

Prime Minister to be totally overshadowed by the ongoing European

:27:58.:28:01.

saga. Though he has been meeting a whole load of people over the past

:28:02.:28:06.

24 hours to try and get some kind of deal together. Last night he met

:28:07.:28:11.

this chap here. This is Donald Tusk, former Prime Minister of Poland, now

:28:12.:28:15.

the President of the EU Council, a pivotal figure in the whole process.

:28:16.:28:19.

He is the man who will have to pull the paper together that will contain

:28:20.:28:23.

the deal that David Cameron wants to get. He was not sounding that of

:28:24.:28:27.

sadistic when he left last night. He was saying no deal and the next 24

:28:28.:28:35.

hours are critical. -- he was not sounding optimistic. But team

:28:36.:28:39.

Cameron was feeling more optimistic. They think it is possible that a

:28:40.:28:43.

package could be published tomorrow. They could be on course for that

:28:44.:28:48.

February council meeting with the referendum later in the year in

:28:49.:28:51.

June. So what are the key sticking points? I suppose the big one we all

:28:52.:28:58.

know about its benefits, restricting the access of EU migrants to in work

:28:59.:29:04.

benefits. You will have heard a lot about the emergency brake, the sort

:29:05.:29:07.

of thing you want your son or daughter to have when they are

:29:08.:29:10.

taking driving lessons. But it is not that. It would enable the UK to

:29:11.:29:16.

stop paying in work benefits to new EU migrants for up to four years

:29:17.:29:19.

because the level of immigration to Britain was deemed to be so high.

:29:20.:29:24.

Downing Street say that is a significant breakthrough which they

:29:25.:29:27.

managed to have achieved and they have got the agreement

:29:28.:29:43.

of the EU commission on it. However we have no idea how long it will

:29:44.:29:47.

last for. Four years, five, six, is it is stopgap measure? We don't know

:29:48.:29:50.

how you would trigger the emergency brake when all other countries have

:29:51.:29:52.

got to vote for it and crucially everybody else has got to agree to

:29:53.:29:55.

it. Countries like Poland are decidedly iffy about curbs on

:29:56.:29:57.

benefits. But David Cameron is quite enthusiastic about it and this is

:29:58.:29:59.

what he said before yesterday's dinner. There is no deal done but we

:30:00.:30:02.

have made progress. There is still a long way to go that one instance of

:30:03.:30:06.

progress is that for a long time I have said we have got to have a

:30:07.:30:10.

system where you do not get benefits out of the system until you

:30:11.:30:26.

pay into our system. We want to end the idea of something for nothing.

:30:27.:30:30.

People said that was impossible and there is now a proposal on the

:30:31.:30:33.

table. It is not good enough and it needs more work but we are making

:30:34.:30:36.

progress. What other trouble on the undergrowth is there? Another key

:30:37.:30:38.

area that David Cameron wants to sort out is the whole issue of

:30:39.:30:40.

protecting non-Euro countries. The concern of David Cameron and George

:30:41.:30:43.

Osborne is that the single currency club gang up on stuff up Tour of

:30:44.:30:45.

Britain and other non-Euro countries and push us around. -- poor old

:30:46.:30:50.

Britain. If there was a deal that Britain did not like the look of, we

:30:51.:30:57.

could say hang on, we need a full European Council meeting to decide

:30:58.:31:00.

it. Why that matters is that agreement at council meetings has

:31:01.:31:03.

got to be unanimous, so what that would give for Britain is info

:31:04.:31:10.

effect a veto. Not everybody is thrilled about that, particularly

:31:11.:31:13.

the French, not happy. That will be difficult to get an agreement on.

:31:14.:31:18.

What else? Exempting Britain from ever closer union.

:31:19.:31:27.

We don't want that because we are not interested in a United States of

:31:28.:31:33.

Europe, because Mr Cameron is looking for some sort of language to

:31:34.:31:38.

give us an opt out. Restoring competitiveness in the EU. Who is

:31:39.:31:42.

going to disagree with that? You could probably get a deal there

:31:43.:31:48.

without too much sweat, that is trying to reduce regulation, getting

:31:49.:31:50.

more liberalisation of the internal market in terms of services. You

:31:51.:31:56.

will probably get a deal on that. When you listen to the President of

:31:57.:31:59.

the Council, he is saying good progress is being made. But a

:32:00.:32:04.

warning. A couple of things one has to bear in mind. This is

:32:05.:32:08.

extraordinarily complicated, and just talking to one body in Downing

:32:09.:32:11.

Street last night, he said Steven was coming out of the ears of people

:32:12.:32:16.

trying to pull it is so difficult to get all of this wrapped up and

:32:17.:32:19.

legally watertight, and above all what is legally difficult is getting

:32:20.:32:27.

everyone to agree to a hugely controversial proposal. So, some way

:32:28.:32:32.

to go yet, Joanna. Good stuff, lots of clarity there.

:32:33.:32:36.

Well, let's speak to two Tory MPs with two different view

:32:37.:32:39.

Damian Green wants to stay in the EU - while Anne Marie Trevelyan wants

:32:40.:32:43.

Damian, would you stay what may, or is it predicated on him getting what

:32:44.:32:52.

he wants on those points? There are two stages, that Britain does

:32:53.:32:57.

benefit hugely, we are safer and stronger inside the European Union,

:32:58.:33:00.

but absolutely, the union needs to reform. All the substantial and

:33:01.:33:07.

difficult things that normal was talking about a worthwhile, and it

:33:08.:33:11.

would make it even more worth while Britain's Damian, which is why I'm

:33:12.:33:14.

so pleased they appear to be making aggressor. Even if he gets nowhere?

:33:15.:33:20.

He isn't going to get nowhere, he has already got somewhere. It does

:33:21.:33:27.

seem that those who said this was impossible have been proved wrong,

:33:28.:33:30.

and those who said this wasn't substantial, that he wasn't asking

:33:31.:33:33.

for much are also being proved wrong. These are serious

:33:34.:33:38.

negotiations on serious subjects. Adam Reach rebellion, you want out.

:33:39.:33:54.

-- Annemarie Trevelyan. It was a very limited attempt at a

:33:55.:33:56.

renegotiation. I think the British people really want to be in a wide

:33:57.:34:00.

trading relationship. I was four years old when most people voted

:34:01.:34:04.

last time, but people say they want something that is trading, that is

:34:05.:34:07.

eyed woodworking, that doesn't restrict us. It isn't about more

:34:08.:34:13.

competitiveness within the EU. Written is a global country, and I

:34:14.:34:16.

want us to be free to be to expand how we trade and have relationships

:34:17.:34:21.

across the world, not being sucked into the small part of the only

:34:22.:34:24.

unfailing currency union in the world. We can do better than that,

:34:25.:34:28.

but we need to take control of so many more decisions, and I think the

:34:29.:34:32.

PM hasn't had the opportunity to ask for more. He asked for what he might

:34:33.:34:37.

be able to negotiate, but we are seeing this belligerent behaviour on

:34:38.:34:42.

the migrant edifice issue. If he is an able to persuade the Eurocrats

:34:43.:34:45.

that this is important to the British people, how can we rely on

:34:46.:34:49.

them to bring together the 27 other countries who would need to give us

:34:50.:34:50.

the support to get those countries who would need to give us

:34:51.:34:54.

that we absolutely must have for the British people's future? Damian

:34:55.:34:59.

Green, talks between Donald Tusk and David Cameron at the moment, but

:35:00.:35:04.

other countries need to agree. Absolutely, this is a difficult and

:35:05.:35:09.

serious negotiation. Where she and I disagree is when she says we should

:35:10.:35:12.

stop caring about Europe and care about the rest of the world, but the

:35:13.:35:17.

two are not mutually extensive. You don't make it easier to export to

:35:18.:35:21.

China by making it more difficult export to Germany and France, any

:35:22.:35:24.

company will want to do both, so being of a group of friendly

:35:25.:35:29.

democracies, which is what they all are, and our neighbours, seems

:35:30.:35:35.

perfectly sensible. Pulling out of that, particularly at a time when

:35:36.:35:37.

the world is so dangerous, would send exactly the wrong signal around

:35:38.:35:40.

the world, it would say that Britain was pulling back from its

:35:41.:35:46.

international obligations. It would cheer up Vladimir Putin and those

:35:47.:35:50.

who hate democracy. Western democracies need to stick together.

:35:51.:35:56.

From a security point of view, we are part of Nato and our security is

:35:57.:36:02.

not predicated on our currency union within the EU. That is where the

:36:03.:36:06.

federal direction is going, and if we were to stay within an outer

:36:07.:36:13.

ring, remix the two up. From a security perspective, the

:36:14.:36:14.

internationalisation and the challenges that we have with

:36:15.:36:19.

terrorism, it is global. This isn't about one small EU pocket of the

:36:20.:36:22.

world, and if written could take back control and maintain good

:36:23.:36:27.

trading relationships, I completely disagree with the position that

:36:28.:36:30.

there will somehow be an end to trade. It will be more difficult if

:36:31.:36:37.

we're not part of a single market. There is a huge trade in both

:36:38.:36:40.

directions, nobody will shut those doors, but I don't see why Britain

:36:41.:36:44.

can't be more positive and outward looking if we can't see strong

:36:45.:36:47.

positive messages coming from Europe which say that we understand that

:36:48.:36:52.

Britain is a maritime nation, it is different needs to a different

:36:53.:36:56.

relationship than the one that hasn't been going on in the

:36:57.:37:00.

direction for us. Just to clarify what you mean on that. There is a

:37:01.:37:06.

huge amount of trade. Why hasn't it been working? It is, but even if we

:37:07.:37:11.

vote to leave and take back control of our nation and our borders and

:37:12.:37:16.

taxation and all those issues which are subsumed by the directives that

:37:17.:37:20.

we are all part of the moment, which I think is a drag on Britain and a

:37:21.:37:24.

permanent frustration to so many people I talk to every day, that we

:37:25.:37:27.

can't find a good trading relationship between Great Britain,

:37:28.:37:32.

the European framework in whatever developing road it takes towards a

:37:33.:37:39.

federal Europe, that we can she continued to sell cars to us, we

:37:40.:37:43.

want to sell whiskey to the French, that will continue. You have both

:37:44.:37:50.

focused on trade. Migration, and the changes to benefits, will it make a

:37:51.:37:55.

difference? I think people draw a distinction between people who come

:37:56.:37:58.

here to work and people who come here to claim benefits. And this is

:37:59.:38:02.

precisely what he is try to deal with. The two islet, because

:38:03.:38:07.

countries like Norway that have a relationship with Europe as

:38:08.:38:11.

described by Anne-Marie still have to have free movement of people, so

:38:12.:38:17.

she achieved her way, we would still probably have the same level of

:38:18.:38:20.

migration, so it is a complete smoke screen to say it would solve that

:38:21.:38:26.

problem. The frustration of watching Donald Tusk and the difficulty of

:38:27.:38:29.

his negotiations, this is still this emergency brake, it strikes me as a

:38:30.:38:35.

nothing, because it is still saying that Europeans would decide if we

:38:36.:38:40.

can have it. The message that the British people want to get through

:38:41.:38:44.

to the European leaders is that Britain needs to take control of its

:38:45.:38:47.

borders, that is not saying that we would still want a German nurse Broc

:38:48.:38:51.

Parkes doctor, because we might need those in our NHS what we train our

:38:52.:38:57.

own, but we must be able to determine it for ourselves. Why can

:38:58.:39:02.

we not taking a Sierra Leone doctor who wants to come in Britain Agazzi

:39:03.:39:06.

as family here? We can't because our numbers are so high already that the

:39:07.:39:09.

European movement limits how we determine who comes in, and we need

:39:10.:39:17.

to be to do that. Thank you both very much. We will no doubt get you

:39:18.:39:20.

back in the months ahead. Still to come: We

:39:21.:39:34.

speak to the father of Private Cheryl Jones,

:39:35.:39:55.

who died of a gunshot wound aged 18 He's to give evidence at the second

:39:56.:39:57.

inquest into her death more than 20 Some of your comments coming in,

:39:58.:40:12.

let's not forget the bankers and the regulators, Kids Company trustees

:40:13.:40:19.

should be banned from being trustees of further charities. Now let's have

:40:20.:40:20.

a weather up eight with Carol. It is pretty stormy. This picture

:40:21.:40:32.

was sent in yesterday by one of our weather Watchers, huge waves

:40:33.:40:34.

crashing against the shoreline of Cumbria. Today some of us will see

:40:35.:40:40.

that very scenario, because storm Henry is going to be battering our

:40:41.:40:46.

shores. It is game to be windy right across the British Isles, the

:40:47.:40:49.

strongest winds in the North of England. If we take a look at some

:40:50.:40:54.

of the gusts that you can expect as we go through the course of the day,

:40:55.:41:04.

we are looking at in excess of 40, 50, 60, even 80 mph. It will be a

:41:05.:41:09.

nasty rush-hour across the central lowlands. But it is really with

:41:10.:41:14.

exposure in the West, so the Outer Hebrides, the Western Isles, gusts

:41:15.:41:19.

to 90 mph, and this is where the Met office has an amber be prepared

:41:20.:41:28.

warning. To put it into context, we see gusts of 90 miles an hour at

:41:29.:41:32.

lower levels roughly once a Troisi, and we have already had that on

:41:33.:41:36.

Friday and we are expecting it again later today full of on Friday we had

:41:37.:41:42.

Storm Gertrude, and Shetland saw a gust of wind at 101 mph. With wind

:41:43.:41:49.

speeds up to that level, it will cause structural damage, there will

:41:50.:41:55.

be trees uprooted, branches on the road, and large waves which could

:41:56.:42:00.

lead to some coastal flooding. The wind will continue to strengthen

:42:01.:42:02.

through the day, peaking for some later this afternoon, for others

:42:03.:42:08.

this evening and maintaining a strong feel as we go through the

:42:09.:42:12.

course of the night. Today's forecast, as well as increasing wind

:42:13.:42:16.

strength, we have a lot of cloud and rain around, pushing down towards

:42:17.:42:19.

the size, leaving brighter skies behind. Some of the showers

:42:20.:42:26.

especially across Scotland will be wintry in the mountains, and a lower

:42:27.:42:29.

level we will see a mixture of hail, sleet and snow. As we go through the

:42:30.:42:35.

evening and overnight, the strongest winds prevail. We are looking in

:42:36.:42:41.

Scotland this afternoon at pretty gusty winds, and look at those

:42:42.:42:44.

temperatures, they are coming down as we go through the course of the

:42:45.:42:50.

day rather than up. Continuing to strengthen in Scotland, Northern

:42:51.:42:52.

Ireland and northern England. If you are travelling on some of the higher

:42:53.:42:55.

routes, for example lack Trans Pennine routes, and you are in a

:42:56.:42:59.

high sided or light vehicle, bear that in mind full. Across Wales, the

:43:00.:43:10.

winds will be strong but not as noticeable. Into the evening, these

:43:11.:43:15.

are the kind of wind speed levels we are looking at. Nasty travelling

:43:16.:43:19.

conditions, especially with exposure and in western Scotland where we are

:43:20.:43:25.

looking at gusts of up to 90 mph. Through the evening and overnight,

:43:26.:43:28.

we continue with the strong winds, it will be a colder nights than the

:43:29.:43:31.

one just gone, the rain clearing eventually from the south coast of

:43:32.:43:34.

England but remaining across the Channel Island, and tomorrow morning

:43:35.:43:38.

we will have very strong winds, so do expect some disruption.

:43:39.:43:43.

Disruption likely later today, tonight and tomorrow morning

:43:44.:43:46.

anywhere from North of England northwards, and tomorrow morning

:43:47.:43:49.

will still be blowing a gale across the central lowlands for the

:43:50.:43:54.

rush-hour full up tomorrow is a day of sunshine and showers once again,

:43:55.:43:58.

blustery winds for England and Wales, but the wind is slowly

:43:59.:44:00.

starting to ease in the North through the course of the day, and

:44:01.:44:03.

once again we will be looking at wintry showers.

:44:04.:44:10.

a second inquest into the death of a teenage army recruit 20 years ago

:44:11.:44:24.

opens again today. The father of Private Cheryl Jones tells us he

:44:25.:44:30.

wants answers. It is the last chance, and that is what I have said

:44:31.:44:34.

on the appeal, if these people don't have the courage to step up and

:44:35.:44:39.

speak now, that I don't think they will have another chance.

:44:40.:44:41.

Lots of you have been getting in touch about Kids Company, a new

:44:42.:44:45.

report blames an extraordinary catalogue of failures for the

:44:46.:44:50.

collapse of the charity. The policy of the charity was to spend the

:44:51.:44:54.

money as soon as it came in, that is why she was was running out of money

:44:55.:44:57.

because she just spent it, and nobody could control what she spent.

:44:58.:45:03.

Plus MPs are debating changes to winning's pensioners today which

:45:04.:45:05.

could set up to half a million women working for longer and retiring on

:45:06.:45:10.

less than they were expecting. We will debate the changes with dew MPs

:45:11.:45:16.

shortly. And we will meet two young transgender men who have recently

:45:17.:45:19.

returned home to Jamaica to reveal their new identities to their

:45:20.:45:20.

families. Now a summary of the main news this

:45:21.:45:31.

morning. We start with some breaking news, because just hearing that UK

:45:32.:45:34.

scientists have been given the go-ahead to genetically modify human

:45:35.:45:39.

embryos for the first time. It is hoped the research will help

:45:40.:45:44.

understand the genes human embryos need to develop successfully.

:45:45.:45:48.

Experiments will take place on embryos in the first week after

:45:49.:45:52.

fertilisation, and could help to combat infertility and miscarriages.

:45:53.:45:58.

MPs investigated the charity Kids Company say an extra robbery

:45:59.:46:01.

catalogue of failures led to its collapse last year. The report

:46:02.:46:04.

blames those running the charity, its Trustees, auditors, regulators

:46:05.:46:10.

and ministers. Its former chief executive Camila Batmanghelidjh has

:46:11.:46:12.

called the document a product of bias and rumour. Earlier, the chair

:46:13.:46:16.

of the group of MPs buying the report had this to say: I think she

:46:17.:46:27.

had a fantastic commission, great vision, but she must have been very

:46:28.:46:34.

difficult to work with. If you are running a large charity, you have to

:46:35.:46:39.

work with some discipline. You have to accept others, except the

:46:40.:46:42.

discipline of others, except that you are not the big deal.

:46:43.:46:45.

David Cameron and European Council President Donald Tusk are set

:46:46.:46:48.

for a day of talks about renegotiating the UK's relationship

:46:49.:46:50.

with the EU today, which Mr Tusk has described as crucial.

:46:51.:46:53.

A meeting last night ended without a deal,

:46:54.:46:55.

though a Downing Street source said there had been a breakthrough

:46:56.:46:57.

on restricting benefits for EU migrants.

:46:58.:47:08.

The World Health Organisation will hold an emergency meeting today

:47:09.:47:10.

to decide if the outbreak of the Zika virus should be

:47:11.:47:13.

The mosquito-borne virus, which has been linked to thousands

:47:14.:47:16.

of severe birth defects in Brazil, could affect up to 4 million

:47:17.:47:19.

Books of condolence will be opened for Sir Terry Wogan this morning

:47:20.:47:23.

He died after a short illness yesterday at the age of 77.

:47:24.:47:27.

The mayor said the books would allow people to pay tribute to a true son

:47:28.:47:31.

of Limerick and a broadcasting institution.

:47:32.:47:36.

Now we can catch up with the sport. Olly Foster as the latest on John

:47:37.:47:45.

Terry's future at Chelsea and the transfer window. After spending his

:47:46.:47:50.

whole career at Stamford Bridge, John Terry, the Chelsea captain,

:47:51.:47:53.

announced he would be leaving the club at the end of the season

:47:54.:47:57.

because they will not renew his contract. Let's bring in the former

:47:58.:48:01.

Leicester and Scotland defender Matt Elliot. You played against John

:48:02.:48:07.

Terry at Stamford Bridge. Captain, leader, legend, it says. Comment

:48:08.:48:13.

saying that it would be stupid to let him go. He is a massive name,

:48:14.:48:17.

and everything that is good about Chelsea over the period of his

:48:18.:48:22.

career. The timing of the statement has surprised people as well, in the

:48:23.:48:27.

middle of the transfer window. A lot of Chelsea fans will be disappointed

:48:28.:48:31.

because it seems like an end of an era and John Terry's time at the

:48:32.:48:36.

club seems to be coming to an end. Slightly muddying the waters, the

:48:37.:48:40.

club has released their own statement, saying dialogue is

:48:41.:48:53.

still open and nothing is on the table at the moment but that might

:48:54.:48:57.

change with a new manager coming in in the summer, but I suppose John

:48:58.:49:00.

Terry cannot wait that long if he has a couple of years left in him.

:49:01.:49:02.

Different factors come into play. Another manager coming in, does John

:49:03.:49:05.

Terry want to stay at the club? Is it a negotiation tactic? Does he

:49:06.:49:09.

want to look to the other side of the Atlantic to America? It is a

:49:10.:49:12.

popular place these days. We will hear more about this subject when we

:49:13.:49:20.

get a final result. Transfer deadline day closes at 11 o'clock

:49:21.:49:23.

for the Premier League and midnight in Scotland. Spending in the Premier

:49:24.:49:29.

League this season could exceed ?1 billion for the first time, which is

:49:30.:49:35.

eye-watering. Yes, crazy times, but it is a natural evolution in some

:49:36.:49:40.

ways. The amount of money that is at stake and the rewards are enormous

:49:41.:49:48.

these days. You see that in the fact it is predominantly the bottom

:49:49.:49:51.

clubs, the teams in the lower regions of the league, then

:49:52.:49:58.

Norwichs, Bournemouths and Newcastles are the primary spenders.

:49:59.:50:01.

Arsenal have not really delved. Leicester are having a little dabble

:50:02.:50:08.

and looking to bring someone in. Newcastle are after Saido Berahino

:50:09.:50:12.

from West Brom, digging in their heels, and they have blocked the

:50:13.:50:18.

move to Tottenham Hotspur. Is he worst ?21 million? Debatable but he

:50:19.:50:24.

is a goal-scorer and worth a lot of money. Financial rewards could come

:50:25.:50:28.

in next season for Newcastle and Tottenham. If West Brom want to keep

:50:29.:50:33.

him, they cannot keep him on the terms that he is at the moment. A

:50:34.:50:39.

Catch-22 situation. Thank you your thoughts. 13 hours until we find out

:50:40.:50:47.

which players are going where. Across the BBC there is the transfer

:50:48.:50:57.

deadline special. At 11:15pm and also on BBC five live, and we have

:50:58.:51:06.

just got time to tell you that Johanna Konta has pulled out of the

:51:07.:51:10.

Fed cup team, Judy Murray's team, because of an intestinal problem.

:51:11.:51:16.

She had that great run in the Australian Open, getting to the

:51:17.:51:20.

semifinals, but she has left the team in a hole because they were

:51:21.:51:24.

banking on her to anchor the team in Israel this week. That is a

:51:25.:51:26.

disappointment. Thank you. Thank you for joining us. We are on

:51:27.:51:38.

the BBC News Channel and BBC Two and online until 11 o'clock this morning

:51:39.:51:43.

and we will bring you breaking news stories including more information

:51:44.:51:46.

on scientists being given permission to genetically modify and human

:51:47.:51:52.

embryos for the first time in the UK. And more on the collapse of Kids

:51:53.:51:57.

Company and the report blaming a catalogue of errors. I worked for

:51:58.:52:01.

drama therapist for Kids Company going into schools all over London

:52:02.:52:05.

doing workshops for a few years and the administration was absolutely

:52:06.:52:08.

appalling. I would always chase that my invoices and I was paid late

:52:09.:52:12.

every time I work for them. There was a high turnover of staff and I

:52:13.:52:15.

never spoke to the same person twice. It seemed like chaos. I still

:52:16.:52:19.

have an outstanding amount owed to me, which

:52:20.:52:37.

is not insubstantial, especially considering I am a working mother of

:52:38.:52:39.

three, and there are lots of therapists who remain unpaid and we

:52:40.:52:42.

have got to write off the losses because we don't know how to extract

:52:43.:52:45.

the money. And this one, the Charity Commission must have more teeth. And

:52:46.:52:47.

Ian tweets, I hope there are audits of other charities to see exactly

:52:48.:52:50.

where any incoming money goes. Thank you for all of your comments and

:52:51.:52:52.

please keep in touch. Text messages will be charged at the standard

:52:53.:52:56.

network rate. Wherever you are, you can watch the programme online

:52:57.:52:59.

through the BBC News app or the website.

:53:00.:53:01.

A new inquest will open today into the death of a teenage army

:53:02.:53:04.

recruit at Deepcut Barracks 20 years ago.

:53:05.:53:06.

18 year old Private Cheryl James was found with a single bullet wound

:53:07.:53:09.

Four young recruits died there between 1995 and 2002.

:53:10.:53:19.

There was a brief inquest three weeks

:53:20.:53:23.

after Private James' death which recorded an open verdict.

:53:24.:53:26.

In 2002 Surrey Police began an investigation into all four

:53:27.:53:28.

deaths at the base and found no evidence of foul play.

:53:29.:53:31.

In 2014 her parents won the right to a new inquest.

:53:32.:53:34.

Our correspondent June Kelly has been speaking to her father Des

:53:35.:53:37.

Cheryl was very bright from an early age. She quickly picked things up.

:53:38.:53:53.

She did really well in her junior school. She was always bubbly, the

:53:54.:53:59.

centre of attention, a terrible giggler. She was impossible to tell

:54:00.:54:06.

off from a very early age, until she died actually. Whenever I try to put

:54:07.:54:10.

the stern face on and tell her off, she would just giggle. It was so

:54:11.:54:16.

difficult. She couldn't help it. She just carried on doing it and in the

:54:17.:54:19.

end we would all burst out laughing. That is a really good memory. What

:54:20.:54:27.

about the weeks before her death? Again, she spent the majority of

:54:28.:54:32.

their time... She was only at Deepcut Barracks for five weeks. At

:54:33.:54:38.

that time she was coming home and there was nothing noticeable. We

:54:39.:54:42.

certainly didn't detect anything. God knows we have relived those

:54:43.:54:52.

visits. My wife had away. She could tell. If she was worried about

:54:53.:54:55.

something, she would spot it, you know. Then she didn't come home as

:54:56.:55:02.

often from the other barracks because she was settling in and

:55:03.:55:07.

having a good time, we guessed. Then what happened was at the end of her

:55:08.:55:18.

time at Leconfield, when she passed her HGV licence, the last time we

:55:19.:55:23.

saw her was on the 22nd of October that year. She had her 18th birthday

:55:24.:55:32.

and came home for that. Then she went back, so we had not seen over

:55:33.:55:36.

five weeks. She was only back at Deepcut Barracks for ten days before

:55:37.:55:43.

she died. It was a very time before she died. Clearly something went on.

:55:44.:55:51.

Do you think Cheryl could have taken her own life? Yes, of course she

:55:52.:55:58.

could have. I am not disputing that. If the evidence can show me that she

:55:59.:56:01.

took her own life, then of course that is what she did. But there

:56:02.:56:04.

isn't any evidence. That is the point. The army were, in my opinion,

:56:05.:56:12.

very easily convinced it was a suicide and I don't know why. Much

:56:13.:56:17.

more to the point, the police were easily convinced it was a suicide

:56:18.:56:21.

and they didn't even investigate the death. In 2002, Surrey Police began

:56:22.:56:26.

an investigation and they found no evidence of a crime. What did you

:56:27.:56:31.

think of that investigation? I would say within a matter of months the

:56:32.:56:39.

investigation... It opened in July and certainly by September my wife

:56:40.:56:42.

and I had separately come to the opinion that they were just carrying

:56:43.:56:45.

out a cursory review of what they considered to be a suicide. It did

:56:46.:56:49.

not feel like an investigation to us, that is the shore. Coming in to

:56:50.:56:55.

the new inquest with more than 100 witnesses potentially, that is a lot

:56:56.:56:59.

of people coming forward. Yes, it is. My view on that is that in 95

:57:00.:57:08.

there were undoubtedly people afraid, kids, 16, 17, 18-year-olds.

:57:09.:57:14.

At that time, I absolutely believe them. I know there are allegations

:57:15.:57:19.

now, but too many of them have made it clear that they were too afraid

:57:20.:57:23.

to speak out. What you have got to remember is that in 2002, when the

:57:24.:57:31.

BBC got hold of the story, and there was talk of a public inquiry and so

:57:32.:57:36.

on, and Surrey Police began their investigation, I think what you had

:57:37.:57:42.

then was an emboldened view because they were 2425, a bit braver, they

:57:43.:57:50.

had left the forces, and they came. -- 24 or 25. Some of these kids are

:57:51.:57:55.

now 40 and there is hardly any fear at all. They are mature with

:57:56.:57:58.

children of their own and they realise how serious it was. I think

:57:59.:58:02.

there are lots of allegations out there that have got to be heard. The

:58:03.:58:06.

problem is there is no mechanism for them to be heard at the moment

:58:07.:58:09.

because clearly Surrey Police have ignored them. There has been an

:58:10.:58:14.

allegation that the night before she died Cheryl may have been raped.

:58:15.:58:22.

Yes. Or ordered by an officer to have sex with a private the night

:58:23.:58:30.

before she died. Yes. That is obviously very distressing. But it

:58:31.:58:36.

is an allegation. Over the years they have built up this mechanism.

:58:37.:58:43.

It is an allegation and you park it at one side of your head and we wait

:58:44.:58:49.

and see what happens. Every time we raised these allegations to the

:58:50.:58:53.

armed forces minister all those years ago, his response was always

:58:54.:58:56.

that they are only allegations and they have not been investigated and

:58:57.:59:00.

we don't know anything about them. In effect, that is where I am. They

:59:01.:59:04.

are allegations. There are lots of allegations but I think it is very

:59:05.:59:13.

important that we hear them, even just because of the volume of them.

:59:14.:59:18.

There are so many we cannot just dismiss them as fabricating stories,

:59:19.:59:21.

telling lies. There are too many allegations here. What we have also

:59:22.:59:26.

got to remember is that when Nicholas Blake conducted his review,

:59:27.:59:31.

the MoD was saying we will look at these. OK, if you have looked at

:59:32.:59:36.

them and investigated them, let us know what the results are there. How

:59:37.:59:39.

many have been investigated and how many people have been punished and

:59:40.:59:46.

gone to prison? I think it is quite wrong that the MoD can throw out

:59:47.:59:50.

these sound bites like zero tolerance and we have fixed it

:59:51.:59:57.

without having to justify it in any way and make themselves accountable.

:59:58.:00:00.

I don't know if they have fixed it because I don't know what it was

:00:01.:00:05.

they were trying to fix. If you haven't had an investigative process

:00:06.:00:10.

into those allegations collectively, if you haven't had the courage to

:00:11.:00:13.

analyse what went on there, how on earth do you know what you are

:00:14.:00:19.

trying to fix? It is just impossible to define. I haven't seen any

:00:20.:00:24.

evidence that that cultural issue, that cultural problem that was going

:00:25.:00:29.

on at Deepcut Barracks, that it has been addressed and the MoD continued

:00:30.:00:33.

to deny it and that makes it even more difficult. If they deny there

:00:34.:00:38.

was a cultural issues any questions almost beginning under false

:00:39.:00:42.

pretences. That is my point. I think that if indeed it turns out that

:00:43.:00:46.

Cheryl or any of the other three did take their own lives, and there was

:00:47.:00:53.

bullying going on and a bit of alcohol and a bit of a drugs

:00:54.:00:57.

culture, we cannot just let these things go past. We have to

:00:58.:01:01.

understand how that can was being run, what was going on, and what

:01:02.:01:06.

mindset that was creating in the 17 and 18-year-old kids who were

:01:07.:01:18.

clearly vulnerable. That sexual allegation is hard for a father to

:01:19.:01:23.

hear? It is, it is horrific. I would have always protected her, so it is

:01:24.:01:35.

very difficult. That is your worst nightmare, I think I should have

:01:36.:01:38.

been there and I could have sorted it. But what can you do? You just

:01:39.:01:47.

have to wait and see what happened. And the inquest will also hear about

:01:48.:01:52.

ballistic evidence? Yes. Which you and your lawyers were saying was not

:01:53.:01:58.

examined properly at the time. That is going to be very significant? I

:01:59.:02:03.

think it is very significant, and I think it is significant because it

:02:04.:02:12.

has not been done before, and I was told in 2002 in a letter from the

:02:13.:02:18.

MoD that there was no reason to take fingerprints off the weapon because

:02:19.:02:21.

it would have been pointless as it was a pool weapon. Surrey Police and

:02:22.:02:28.

many other experts have told me since that that was nonsense, so why

:02:29.:02:33.

would the MoD sending the letter? Who told them to send that letter to

:02:34.:02:39.

me? How can they send letters like that but I clearly incorrect, on

:02:40.:02:44.

true. It is just cruel. Do you think this is your best hope

:02:45.:02:47.

of finding out what happened? There is no doubt. I do think this can be

:02:48.:02:55.

resurrected again. I think that we will just see where this takes us,

:02:56.:02:59.

and that is why I am so pedantic about the process. I can't keep

:03:00.:03:05.

quiet about the 23,000 documents, we can't just let that slip I've. I

:03:06.:03:13.

think it is the last chance, and that is why I have said that on the

:03:14.:03:16.

appeals. If these people don't have the courage to step up and speak

:03:17.:03:21.

now, then I don't think they will have another chance. The father of

:03:22.:03:23.

drive it Cheryl James. "Our thoughts remain with the family

:03:24.:03:28.

and friends of Private Cheryl James. The inquest will now be a matter

:03:29.:03:33.

for the coroner, but we will of course continue to cooperate

:03:34.:03:37.

with and provide support Still to come before 11: Syria peace

:03:38.:03:39.

talks in Geneva are due to start again today after attempts

:03:40.:03:44.

failed last week. Two former International Development

:03:45.:03:46.

Secretaries have recently visited the region near the

:03:47.:03:48.

Syrian-Turkish border. He says that the communities are

:03:49.:04:02.

guilty of lack of action. We will be talking to him.

:04:03.:04:05.

Next, meet Steffan Zachiyah and Romario Wanliss,

:04:06.:04:07.

two transgender men who live in the UK but have just returned

:04:08.:04:10.

from Jamaica where they came out to their families

:04:11.:04:14.

for an extraordinary Radio 1 Newsbeat documentary.

:04:15.:04:15.

Jamaica is considered to be one of the most homophobic

:04:16.:04:18.

and transphobic countries in the world but despite the risks

:04:19.:04:20.

they both wanted to tell their family why they're

:04:21.:04:22.

in the process of transitioning from female to male.

:04:23.:04:25.

Here's the moment when Steffan met his eldest brother Gilla.

:04:26.:04:29.

Today, I'm going to be revealing my transition

:04:30.:04:34.

for the first time in two years, to my brother.

:04:35.:04:36.

I don't know what the outcome is going to be.

:04:37.:04:44.

I don't want to have any expectations.

:04:45.:04:48.

He is a brother from my father's side but he's been there a lot,

:04:49.:04:55.

when I was living in Jamaica, in 2001.

:04:56.:05:00.

The house I'm going to visit today, it's my parents' house.

:05:01.:05:26.

It's going to remind me of going to school, how I used

:05:27.:05:28.

to dress, over here it was so strict on how males looked

:05:29.:05:31.

We had to wear skirts, knee high, it was a depressing time but I hid

:05:32.:05:40.

it so much because I wanted to blend in.

:05:41.:05:47.

I'm thinking about it and I feel emotional already.

:05:48.:06:37.

The last time I came to Jamaica, I was dressed way more feminine,

:06:38.:06:40.

Even though I was more masculine in the UK,

:06:41.:06:47.

I had to kind of like add some touch of femininity,

:06:48.:06:50.

extensions in my hair, more of a tomboy look.

:06:51.:06:55.

I tried to do it to please everyone around me, especially my mum,

:06:56.:06:59.

But coming here now, who I am today, I feel free,

:07:00.:07:08.

I've changed my name, started medically transitioning.

:07:09.:07:46.

I don't know if you can see the physical changes?

:07:47.:07:58.

I'm now just living my life as myself.

:07:59.:09:41.

And you can watch the full Radio 1 Newsbeat documentary

:09:42.:09:44.

Transgender Back to Jamaica on the Radio 1 Channel

:09:45.:09:46.

We can speak to both Romario and Steffan now.

:09:47.:10:02.

Thank you both for coming in. You were upbeat there. Did you feel

:10:03.:10:09.

nervous? That was someone who had known you as a girl and had no idea

:10:10.:10:13.

until that moment that you are transitioning? I was very nervous,

:10:14.:10:21.

but the suspense of it just made me feel like I am living my life is

:10:22.:10:26.

mean out, what is the point of holding back? If it wasn't the BBC

:10:27.:10:30.

News beat, I would have to come out either way, so I thought, let's get

:10:31.:10:36.

straight to the point. This is me, face it, or never face it at all.

:10:37.:10:41.

Why was it important for you to go there and face it? Your mum is here,

:10:42.:10:45.

you have lived most of your life here, but obviously you do still

:10:46.:10:50.

have family in Jamaica. It was important to me because I feel like

:10:51.:10:56.

I need to affirm my identity, so I want people to be addressing me as

:10:57.:10:59.

the person who I am now rather than the person I was, so for me to go

:11:00.:11:04.

back there to my brother in Jamaica just meant to me that it was closure

:11:05.:11:09.

on Stefanie. Did you get that? He still was calling you she. It can't

:11:10.:11:17.

change overnight. People around me will be transitioning as well as

:11:18.:11:24.

myself. So I have room for that. I can allow them their transition as

:11:25.:11:28.

well as myself. He looked shocked when he first saw you, but then said

:11:29.:11:30.

very nicely, you when he first saw you, but then said

:11:31.:11:35.

as yourself. What was the reaction you had from others? Was everybody

:11:36.:11:41.

as understanding? My family, again, it wasn't shocking for them, some of

:11:42.:11:46.

them, because it was like a build-up anyway, but it was hard for some of

:11:47.:11:52.

them to accept, because it was again something out of the norm. It is not

:11:53.:12:00.

normal in their eyes, but now their minds are changing and they are

:12:01.:12:03.

beginning to come more accepting, and I am happy about that. Romario,

:12:04.:12:08.

you went back to Jamaica as well. Tell us what it was like for you. It

:12:09.:12:14.

was really nerve wracking. It was about a decade before hired actually

:12:15.:12:19.

went to Jamaica, and I was always scared because of my history with my

:12:20.:12:22.

father. Tell us more about your story. You said you were worried

:12:23.:12:30.

about going back because of your father. Tell us the history there. I

:12:31.:12:35.

was born in Jamaica, I grew up there, I came here because my mum

:12:36.:12:40.

asked me to come. By this time I was homeless, and my father and I had

:12:41.:12:45.

fell out. I thought it was due to my sexuality at the time, so he found

:12:46.:12:52.

out that I liked girls, and to me, it felt like emotional abuse,

:12:53.:12:56.

physical abuse, and I couldn't take it any more, so I left the family

:12:57.:13:00.

home, I left my sisters and brothers, I just turned my back on

:13:01.:13:05.

the life in Jamaica. When I came here, I realised I had the

:13:06.:13:08.

opportunity to transition, and that is when I started to medically

:13:09.:13:13.

transition. I was scared about judgment, so I was just really

:13:14.:13:16.

scared. It is the simplest way I could did. So what was it like to go

:13:17.:13:24.

back? It was up and down, because I had my best friend, so there was

:13:25.:13:30.

high moments like we were doing this together, and then low moments where

:13:31.:13:33.

we were about to do it and I didn't even know if my dad would show up.

:13:34.:13:37.

But it was really important for us to share that story. How was your

:13:38.:13:42.

dad? You have to watch the documentary to find out! Deveson

:13:43.:13:49.

clue. Did you get the sense that he knew you had transitioned? In my

:13:50.:13:55.

mind, as far as I know personally, yes. Before coming down, my sister

:13:56.:14:02.

had spoken to him and let him know I was coming and this is who I am now,

:14:03.:14:06.

so much am I believe it was the first time that he actually was

:14:07.:14:12.

like, this is a boy that is coming down, but I know this person to be a

:14:13.:14:16.

girl, I know this person to be my daughter, and I commend him to

:14:17.:14:20.

showing up, and he said that it was difficult for him to show up. My

:14:21.:14:25.

reaction was very surprisingly I was surprised by his reaction to me. And

:14:26.:14:33.

how do you feel now about it? I am happy I did it as I have a sense of

:14:34.:14:40.

closure on that side of my life. We are also pioneering because we are

:14:41.:14:42.

showing people that even though you come from this country, this country

:14:43.:14:48.

that might be deemed very homophobic, there is hope, you can

:14:49.:14:52.

go out there and still represent your culture and still be

:14:53.:15:04.

trans-all-day. -- you can still be trans or you can be gay. Romario and

:15:05.:15:11.

Steffan, thank you for talking to us. But documentary is available on

:15:12.:15:15.

the iPlayer, and to find out more about their story, you can watch the

:15:16.:15:20.

full News beat Kim entry on the radio one channel on the BBC

:15:21.:15:22.

iPlayer. Thank you for joining us today.

:15:23.:15:27.

Still to come before 11: UK scientists have been given

:15:28.:15:32.

the go-ahead to genetically modify We will bring you more of this

:15:33.:15:46.

breaking story. Driving 25,000 miles in two years to

:15:47.:15:49.

see their daughter. One father has to readily make a 300 mile journey

:15:50.:15:53.

to visit his daughter in a psychiatric unit because there are

:15:54.:15:55.

no beds closer to home. Now a summary of the main news this

:15:56.:16:11.

morning. We will bring you more on the breaking news we have just been

:16:12.:16:12.

talking about. UK scientists have been given

:16:13.:16:14.

the go-ahead to genetically modify Fergus Walsh is here to tell us

:16:15.:16:25.

more. What are they going to be able to do? This is a team at the crick

:16:26.:16:29.

institute and they are going to take donated embryos left over from IVF

:16:30.:16:36.

research which our one-day old, frozen, so not put to any other use,

:16:37.:16:43.

and they will use a new system of gene editing that enables them to

:16:44.:16:49.

take out, modify, one gene out of 30,000. I think the best way to

:16:50.:16:55.

describe this is that in every cell of our body we have this code of

:16:56.:17:00.

life, this Genoa, that we often talk about. Imagine it like a big set of

:17:01.:17:06.

encyclopaedias. What this gene editing system can do is take

:17:07.:17:11.

metaphorically one Encyclopaedia of the shelf, look up one page, and

:17:12.:17:18.

take out one word or edit it. It has only been discovered in the last few

:17:19.:17:23.

years, this system, and it is revolutionising medical research.

:17:24.:17:29.

What they are going to be able to do is look at all of the genes that are

:17:30.:17:34.

involved in the most early stages of human development and see what

:17:35.:17:38.

effect it has when they edit them. What is the potential here? This

:17:39.:17:43.

particular team is looking at why some women repeatedly miscarry. They

:17:44.:17:48.

will be looking at the early embryos when they are smaller than a speck

:17:49.:17:53.

of dust, maybe between 20 and 200 cells big. Of those cells, some of

:17:54.:17:59.

them go on to form the placenta and others the foetus. They are trying

:18:00.:18:07.

to understand which of the genes are crucial to the safe and proper

:18:08.:18:14.

development of a baby in the uterus. By doing this research, ultimately

:18:15.:18:18.

they hope it might lead to a better understanding of miscarriage and

:18:19.:18:22.

maybe better treatments and faster, more accurate IVF. Extraordinary

:18:23.:18:30.

what they could be doing. If the UK at the cutting edge of this? It

:18:31.:18:38.

certainly is. This regulator is the first in the world to approve this

:18:39.:18:42.

and many countries do not have regulators. Britain will be the

:18:43.:18:45.

second country after China to permit this. Last year a Chinese team said

:18:46.:18:52.

they had done this gene editing in embryos. In the United States, for a

:18:53.:18:57.

sample, federal funding is not permitted to allow this but private

:18:58.:19:04.

funding is. If we go back to Louise Brown in 1978, the UK has always

:19:05.:19:09.

been at the forefront of embryo and IVF and fertility research, and this

:19:10.:19:15.

is another example of that. Is there much controversy surrounding this

:19:16.:19:20.

and ethical issues? All the main medical research bodies support

:19:21.:19:25.

this. It will make some people instinctively queasy, the idea of

:19:26.:19:30.

editing the book of life. If that's embryo was ever to be implanted, and

:19:31.:19:34.

it won't be in these cases, then you could lead to the slippery slope of

:19:35.:19:38.

designer humans. Emphatically that is against the law. But knowing that

:19:39.:19:44.

something is possible might mean that in some other part of the world

:19:45.:19:48.

it could one day be done. It is something that we need to keep a

:19:49.:19:50.

close ethical eye on. Thank you. MPs investigating the charity,

:19:51.:19:56.

Kids Company, say an extraordinary catalogue of failures led

:19:57.:19:58.

to its collapse last year. Their report blames those

:19:59.:20:00.

running the charity, its trustees, auditors,

:20:01.:20:02.

regulators and ministers. Its former chief executive,

:20:03.:20:03.

Camila Batmanghelidjh, has called the document

:20:04.:20:05.

a product of bias and rumour. Earlier on this programme the chair

:20:06.:20:08.

of the group of MPs behind the report had this to say

:20:09.:20:11.

on Ms Batmanghelidjh. I think she had a fantastic

:20:12.:20:24.

commission, great vision, but you must have been very difficult to

:20:25.:20:29.

work with. If you are running a large charity, you have to have some

:20:30.:20:33.

discipline. You have to be able to work with others and accept the

:20:34.:20:37.

discipline of others. You have to accept you are not the big deal.

:20:38.:20:41.

David Cameron and European Council President Donald Tusk are set

:20:42.:20:44.

for a day of talks about renegotiating the UK's relationship

:20:45.:20:46.

with the EU today, which Mr Tusk has described as crucial.

:20:47.:20:49.

A meeting last night ended without a deal,

:20:50.:20:51.

though a Downing Street source said there had been a breakthrough

:20:52.:20:54.

on restricting benefits for EU migrants.

:20:55.:20:58.

The World Health Organisation will hold an emergency meeting

:20:59.:21:00.

today to decide if the outbreak of the Zika virus should be declared

:21:01.:21:03.

The mosquito-borne virus, which has been linked to thousands

:21:04.:21:08.

could affect up to 4 million people this year.

:21:09.:21:15.

Books of condolence will be opened for Sir Terry Wogan this morning

:21:16.:21:18.

He died after a short illness yesterday at the age of 77.

:21:19.:21:23.

The mayor said the books would allow people to pay tribute to a true son

:21:24.:21:27.

of Limerick and a broadcasting institution.

:21:28.:21:33.

We can now catch up with all the sport on transfer deadline day. It

:21:34.:21:41.

has been a frantic day. The transfer window closes tonight with an air

:21:42.:21:46.

leak spending set to break ?1 billion in a single season for the

:21:47.:21:50.

first time. The biggest signing could be Saido Berahino. Newcastle

:21:51.:21:54.

have bits ?21 million for him but West Brom are digging in their

:21:55.:21:57.

heels. He scored a couple of times at the weekend in the cup. Toss

:21:58.:22:01.

wanted him last summer and Stoke could also be after his signature.

:22:02.:22:07.

-- Tottenham wanted him. You can follow the drama as it unfolds

:22:08.:22:12.

across the BBC today. John Terry, the Chelsea captain, said he will

:22:13.:22:16.

leave the club at the end of this season because he has not been

:22:17.:22:18.

offered a new contract but the club say that could change and dialogue

:22:19.:22:22.

is open. John Terry has spent his entire career at Stamford Bridge and

:22:23.:22:28.

he will keep playing, he said, but not in England. Johanna Konta has

:22:29.:22:36.

broken into the top 30, following a fantastic run in the Australia Open,

:22:37.:22:40.

where she reached the semifinals before losing to the eventual

:22:41.:22:44.

champion Angelique Kerber. She has pulled out of the fed Cup team in

:22:45.:22:51.

Israel because of intestine issues. And Andy Murray is in the air on the

:22:52.:22:55.

way back home after losing in the final to Novak Djokovic. He has made

:22:56.:22:58.

the swift departure to be with his wife who is expecting her first

:22:59.:23:04.

child very soon. She just have to hang on a little bit longer. That is

:23:05.:23:09.

all the sport. We hope she can! Thank you.

:23:10.:23:15.

MPs will debate changes to women's pensions today,

:23:16.:23:17.

which could see up to half a million women retire on less

:23:18.:23:20.

Last week on the programme we heard from Wendy.

:23:21.:23:23.

She was only told two years ago that her retirement age

:23:24.:23:26.

She had been planning to retire next week on her 60th birthday.

:23:27.:23:30.

Now she says she'll have to work for six more years.

:23:31.:23:32.

In June 2013, a letter saying my state based on age is going up from

:23:33.:23:45.

65 to 66. -- state pension age. I did not know it was going up to 65

:23:46.:23:50.

let alone 66. I actually phoned the DWP up because I thought it was a

:23:51.:23:54.

mistake and then I found out that the state pension age had gone up in

:23:55.:23:59.

the pensions act in 1995 but I had not been told about that. This

:24:00.:24:04.

letter comes 18 years after that pensions act in 1995. It took them

:24:05.:24:13.

18 years to let me know about this. Starting work when I was 16, I was

:24:14.:24:18.

always told it would be 60. All my working life I believed it was 60. I

:24:19.:24:26.

was told it was put out on the radio and in the newspapers. I didn't hear

:24:27.:24:31.

about it on the radio and I certainly didn't see it in the

:24:32.:24:36.

newspapers. How am I supposed to think in 1995, oh, I must put the

:24:37.:24:41.

radio on because there might be a report about my retirement. You just

:24:42.:24:47.

don't think ahead like that. In 1995I was 39, working, travelling,

:24:48.:24:52.

doing things with the family, with friends, and I was not thinking

:24:53.:24:57.

about my retirement. I was devastated actually. I thought I

:24:58.:25:00.

could retire at 60 and I was going to do some travelling while I am

:25:01.:25:04.

still fit to go and enjoy life a bit. To find out I cannot retire at

:25:05.:25:09.

60 and have to wait another six years is an awful lot. Now I am

:25:10.:25:17.

Speaking on was Wendy. Speaking on

:25:18.:25:24.

Radio 4's Today programme, the Pensions Minister,

:25:25.:25:26.

Lady Altmann, says the changes will make the state

:25:27.:25:28.

However she's surprised that people are unaware of the changes.

:25:29.:25:33.

the idea that the state pension age which was changed in 1995 from 860

:25:34.:25:39.

is something people don't know about 20 years later in 2015 is really,

:25:40.:25:45.

really exercising to me. The women's state pension age has been rising

:25:46.:25:52.

for nearly six years. It is now 63. It has not been 60 for a long time.

:25:53.:25:56.

Social Care and Carers. Well,

:25:57.:26:00.

She feels this change was brought in too quickly with

:26:01.:26:03.

Conservative MP Craig Mackinlay sits on the House of Commons' Work

:26:04.:26:06.

it is something that needed to happen.

:26:07.:26:12.

thank you both for joining us. Do you agree with Baroness Altman went

:26:13.:26:19.

to says that the idea that people did not know is exercising her? The

:26:20.:26:27.

WASPI women have launched a fantastic campaign on this and I

:26:28.:26:30.

don't think any MP in a land has not heard about this campaign and they

:26:31.:26:33.

have probably had women in their surgeries about this discussing the

:26:34.:26:37.

problems they have had. The legislation started in 1995 and a

:26:38.:26:41.

lot of women are saying they did not receive a personalised letter until

:26:42.:26:48.

a few years ago. That is certainly possible. Before I was an MP, that

:26:49.:26:53.

knowledge was sort of out there that these changes were happening and 60

:26:54.:26:58.

was going to be changing to 65. It has obviously accelerated past that

:26:59.:27:02.

now. I have a feeling it was known about but if there is a lack of

:27:03.:27:05.

communication, I think the Government has learned something and

:27:06.:27:10.

must do better in the future. So what are you saying to women like

:27:11.:27:11.

Wendy who just did not know? In 1995 she was not looking out for

:27:12.:27:28.

something like that. She did not hear about it and got a big shock

:27:29.:27:31.

all those years later and now she has got to work longer than she

:27:32.:27:34.

expected. Are you just saying it is tough? No. The committee is looking

:27:35.:27:36.

at various options and suggestions to see if there is some kind of

:27:37.:27:39.

transitional arrangement that might be acceptable to DWP. Going back to

:27:40.:27:41.

first principles, we have got to accept that we are all living longer

:27:42.:27:45.

and that is something to celebrate. It is not uncommon when you read the

:27:46.:27:49.

local press that you see people in the obituary column living to their

:27:50.:27:55.

late 90s. The thought of 40 years of pensions is something that is just a

:27:56.:27:59.

different world. The reality was that when the pension age was 60,

:28:00.:28:04.

people did not have a huge life expectation and they were lucky to

:28:05.:28:09.

reach 80 and now living until 100 is not uncommon. In terms of equality

:28:10.:28:13.

it was right that we had a change to unequal age is between men and women

:28:14.:28:19.

and I don't think many people would object to that. But this transition

:28:20.:28:22.

from going to the old to the New will always be tough. I will listen

:28:23.:28:27.

hard and I have every sympathy. We have a woman who is younger than her

:28:28.:28:31.

husband, her husband has died and yet she will receive nothing until

:28:32.:28:35.

she is 66. There are tough cases on the edges but it is like anything.

:28:36.:28:41.

If you try and make changes, some people will be happy and something

:28:42.:28:45.

will pop up where you least expect it, like a balloon. What is your

:28:46.:28:52.

opinion on this? Craig Mackinlay has been pretty clear this was a long

:28:53.:28:57.

time coming. It was but few have heard from Wendy that she did not

:28:58.:29:00.

know about it and I have constituents in the same position. I

:29:01.:29:04.

want to take issue with what Craig were saying about life expectancy.

:29:05.:29:09.

The year these changes were brought in, life expectancy fell. Thanet is

:29:10.:29:13.

very different to Salford, where there is some of the worst life

:29:14.:29:17.

expectancy in the country. Some people in my constituency will only

:29:18.:29:20.

be drawing their pension for something like six years after 66

:29:21.:29:27.

and healthy life expectancy stops in the mid 50s. Are you saying the

:29:28.:29:31.

pension age should not have been changed at all? I am not saying that

:29:32.:29:36.

but we have to take account of the fact that not everybody is healthy

:29:37.:29:40.

and not everybody lives until they are 90. But how do you address that?

:29:41.:29:46.

We cannot have a pick and mix situation.

:29:47.:29:53.

A number of these women are suffering real hardship, maybe from

:29:54.:30:00.

health problems, may be they are carers, maybe they have been made

:30:01.:30:05.

redundant. There are no arrangements made at all despite the fact that

:30:06.:30:07.

Iain Duncan Smith promised there would need transitional

:30:08.:30:13.

arrangements. You did mention there may be various options you are

:30:14.:30:17.

looking at. One option that I personally have some favour with is

:30:18.:30:21.

perhaps having a lower amount early, so that overall, the cost of a

:30:22.:30:28.

lifetime of pension will be the same, but it would be discounted

:30:29.:30:34.

amount having earlier. The cost of completely reversing those 1995

:30:35.:30:38.

changes, which was the tail end of the Conservative Government back

:30:39.:30:42.

then, these changes went through the whole Labour government and were

:30:43.:30:45.

enhanced and improved upon, went through Parliament, everybody

:30:46.:30:51.

agreed, and the 2011 change, the one that is causing the most upset. What

:30:52.:30:57.

could be considered is a lower amount of longer, and that would

:30:58.:31:00.

mean that .Mac accurately is looking at what that might be. -- the

:31:01.:31:11.

Government actuaries. That would be a calculation that needed to be had.

:31:12.:31:15.

But I would have some sympathy with that, because it would be cost

:31:16.:31:20.

neutral and would get some women who are stuck between 60 and 66 some

:31:21.:31:25.

money now. It is good that people like Craig are not entirely

:31:26.:31:29.

supported what they Government has done and think there have to be

:31:30.:31:33.

differences made, but we have the lowest state pension payments almost

:31:34.:31:36.

in the world, only Mexico comes in lower than we do. And you are

:31:37.:31:43.

talking about an even lower amount. We need arrangements for people who

:31:44.:31:46.

can't work, who have been made redundant like Wendy in the film. We

:31:47.:31:50.

need arrangements for people who are carers. Why should all the weight of

:31:51.:31:57.

pension equalisation fall on this one decade of women?

:31:58.:32:07.

You have support payments for people. And you have sanctions, you

:32:08.:32:14.

sanction people and leave them with nothing to live on at 62 and 63.

:32:15.:32:18.

This is too harsh for this group of women. Your Government didn't think

:32:19.:32:24.

it through. Barbra, it was your Government as well that started

:32:25.:32:32.

this. In 2011, your government broke a pledge in your manifesto and

:32:33.:32:37.

speeded up these changes. It falls to hard on women, and you know that

:32:38.:32:41.

you need to think this through, do what Iain Duncan Smith promised and

:32:42.:32:45.

bring in transitional arrangements. I have just offered what I think

:32:46.:32:49.

would he a fairly fair arrangement, and in opposition, you're just

:32:50.:32:52.

saying it is all wrong and it should be ripped up. We are just about out

:32:53.:32:57.

of time, but you have said you have put forward that idea. Have you any

:32:58.:32:59.

reason to suspect that the Department for Work and Pensions

:33:00.:33:05.

would supported? The select committee comes up with lots of

:33:06.:33:08.

ideas, and they are well thought through after receiving lots of

:33:09.:33:11.

evidence, and I think that one has some links to it. We should be

:33:12.:33:17.

reported in the next few days, and DWP will look at that and see what

:33:18.:33:20.

they think. Thank you both very much. Let us

:33:21.:33:27.

know what you think, and a Department for Work and Pensions

:33:28.:33:29.

spokesperson has told us that the decision to equalise the state

:33:30.:33:34.

pension for men and women dates back to 1995 and corrects a long-standing

:33:35.:33:38.

inequality was the usual the state pension remains affordable for

:33:39.:33:41.

future generations. Women retiring today can still expect to receive

:33:42.:33:45.

the state pension of 26 years on average, 26 years longer than men.

:33:46.:33:50.

Still to come: A former international development minister

:33:51.:33:54.

who has just returned from Syrian refugees visiting tiles as the

:33:55.:33:57.

international community is guilty of a grotesque lack of action and

:33:58.:34:00.

effectiveness in Syria. We will be talking to him.

:34:01.:34:03.

A family who have driven over 25,000 miles in two years

:34:04.:34:05.

to visit their teenage daughter in a psychiatric unit

:34:06.:34:07.

say it's a national disgrace she couldn't get a bed

:34:08.:34:10.

18-year-old Chloe Hodge has severe anxiety and PTSD.

:34:11.:34:20.

A shortage of beds near her home in Cornwall means she's spent two

:34:21.:34:23.

years in a mental health unit 300 miles away.

:34:24.:34:25.

Last year the Government admitted mental health services for children

:34:26.:34:28.

and young people in England were in need of a complete

:34:29.:34:31.

overhaul and promised to prioritise improved care as close

:34:32.:34:34.

to home as possible for children

:34:35.:34:35.

Chloe Hodge's father says keeping her so far

:34:36.:34:40.

away from her family is a breach

:34:41.:34:42.

Thank you very much for joining us. Tell us why she is so far away? Tell

:34:43.:34:56.

us more about the history of the treatment she has had. The problems

:34:57.:35:04.

happened with Chloe when she hit puberty. Then we discovered that

:35:05.:35:12.

there is no out of hours, out of office care for young people with

:35:13.:35:15.

mental health issues in Cornwall at all. In fact, one night she actually

:35:16.:35:23.

spent in the kitchen of the police station, because the police took her

:35:24.:35:28.

away, the hospital wouldn't accept her, so she spent the night wrapped

:35:29.:35:31.

in a blanket in the kitchen at the local police station, and then the

:35:32.:35:39.

episodes increased and she was taken away to Somerset, put in a

:35:40.:35:44.

residential placement which didn't have any mental health speciality,

:35:45.:35:53.

and she was moved on then to Stevenage, which also didn't have

:35:54.:35:58.

any mental health support in-house. She stopped taking her medication,

:35:59.:36:06.

made herself really ill, and she was moved to Colchester, which is 350

:36:07.:36:12.

miles away from us, and after a period, she was then moved to Kent

:36:13.:36:19.

house. So now at the age of 18 she is in Wales? She is in Wales. What

:36:20.:36:30.

happened,... What has the impact been on her and your family of her

:36:31.:36:41.

being so far away? It has been ongoing. The problems are that she

:36:42.:36:46.

is a youngster, she is poorly, and we have just not been able to

:36:47.:36:50.

support her. She has got no chance of home leave. She has been cut off

:36:51.:36:59.

from her family and her friends. And that has been ongoing. Now we have

:37:00.:37:04.

this other problem where we have this arbitrary decision that when

:37:05.:37:11.

she hits 18 she is just moved on. The people at Kent house did a good

:37:12.:37:13.

job, they were finally getting somewhere with her thanks to the

:37:14.:37:23.

hard work, but she just had to move, so she was shunted off to Wales.

:37:24.:37:30.

There was no choice, no plan B. Every time she moves, there is only

:37:31.:37:37.

one option. So now she is in Pontypridd, which is closer, but it

:37:38.:37:43.

is still a good 200 miles. It is about three and a half hours from

:37:44.:37:50.

us. What would you say to the people making decisions about where

:37:51.:37:53.

resources are? What would you like to be done, what message would you

:37:54.:38:00.

like people to hear? It is not just our family. There are 20 others in

:38:01.:38:05.

Cornwall facing the exact same situation. There is a charitable

:38:06.:38:13.

trust called the Invicta is trust, and they drew up plans to build a

:38:14.:38:19.

unit in Cornwall. Those plans were ready about three years ago, they

:38:20.:38:24.

had Landsdowne naked by Cornwall College, they went out to tender --

:38:25.:38:32.

they had land donated by Cornwall College, it went out to tender, and

:38:33.:38:35.

the so-called care commissioners have suddenly said there isn't a

:38:36.:38:45.

need. Obviously there is a need, so basically, it is probably too late

:38:46.:38:49.

for our daughter, but at any one time, there are 20 families in

:38:50.:38:55.

Cornwall that would really benefit to have this unit built. Paul Hodge,

:38:56.:39:02.

thank you for joining us and talking to us about your situation and your

:39:03.:39:07.

daughter Chloe. We asked Cornwall partnership NHS Foundation Trust

:39:08.:39:10.

with a response, but they were unable to supply us with one. NHS

:39:11.:39:15.

England has issued a statement saying, we appreciate the strain

:39:16.:39:18.

families can phrase when loved ones are far from home. While basement

:39:19.:39:23.

are ideally close by, the specific needs and condition of each

:39:24.:39:26.

individual can sometimes only be catered for at units that are

:39:27.:39:27.

further away. The international community

:39:28.:39:32.

is guilty of a grotesque lack Wightman about is the verdict of the

:39:33.:39:42.

former international development minister Andrew Mitchell who has

:39:43.:39:45.

just returned from visiting refugees on the Turkish Syrian border. He was

:39:46.:39:51.

joined by Labour MP Clare Short, also a former international

:39:52.:39:52.

development minister. I think the Turks have been

:39:53.:40:00.

fantastically generous, they have 2.2 million refugees from Syria

:40:01.:40:08.

here, of which 350,000 are in camps, with everything provided. The rest

:40:09.:40:12.

are out in the community thanks to the generosity of local people. This

:40:13.:40:17.

is a quality of camp that has cost them all together something like $8

:40:18.:40:23.

billion since the crisis started. And they are not getting the

:40:24.:40:27.

recognition. They are providing the bulk of support Syrian refugees, it

:40:28.:40:30.

has cost them a lot of money, and they can't go on doing this unless

:40:31.:40:33.

they get support from the international community. And the EU

:40:34.:40:39.

has promised, but it isn't being delivered. They have done remarkably

:40:40.:40:44.

well in dealing with the crisis. The Syrians would like to stay near

:40:45.:40:47.

Syria, because they would like to go home as soon as possible, but they

:40:48.:40:51.

have to be provided for or they will wander across the world try to find

:40:52.:40:56.

somewhere where they can be safe. And it will be the people who have

:40:57.:40:59.

something to contribute when the awful fighting is over who will be

:41:00.:41:03.

gone. Because they can afford to move. Yes, and that is what the

:41:04.:41:09.

world has got to address at this pledging conference next week, so

:41:10.:41:12.

that the money goes to where it is really needed to ensure that Syria

:41:13.:41:18.

can rebuild and has the resources to do so once it is over. Turkey gets

:41:19.:41:22.

proper support from the enormous contribution. Yes.

:41:23.:41:28.

Andrew Mitchell is here with me now. We saw you there in conversation

:41:29.:41:37.

with Clare Short. This is in part a political, you are both talking

:41:38.:41:41.

there about the importance of focusing resources in the region. If

:41:42.:41:46.

and until the issues of Syria are resolved, these people are living in

:41:47.:41:48.

limbo top whatever resources they are given to help them get through

:41:49.:41:52.

life on a daily basis in refugee camps. It is worse than that,

:41:53.:41:56.

because of course they are not getting the food that they require.

:41:57.:41:59.

The world food programme is running at half the amount of food they need

:42:00.:42:05.

to deliver to the refugees, and that money needs now to be provided by

:42:06.:42:09.

the international community to the world food gram. One of the points

:42:10.:42:13.

that Claire was making, and although we are very different political

:42:14.:42:17.

bedfellows, we agree entirely on this, is that most of the Syrians we

:42:18.:42:21.

match do not want to come to Europe. They want to stay in the region

:42:22.:42:25.

until the fighting is over, and of course, if they stay, some of them

:42:26.:42:30.

in camps, many more of them living in the local community, we must

:42:31.:42:33.

ensure that the children go to school so that there isn't a whole

:42:34.:42:36.

generation that are radicalised by this experience, and also that there

:42:37.:42:43.

is enterprise and livelihoods and training adjacent to the camps where

:42:44.:42:45.

they live so that when the fighting is over they are in a good position

:42:46.:42:51.

to go back and rebuilt Syria. What about giving them a chance of a

:42:52.:42:54.

better life in the meantime? Some of those you are meeting have been

:42:55.:42:58.

there for four years. There has been criticism of UK policy in not taking

:42:59.:43:02.

in more refugees, whether it is from the region from Europe, and just

:43:03.:43:07.

today, a letter signed by a large number of top economist and former

:43:08.:43:12.

Government, UN and World Bank officials has criticised the

:43:13.:43:14.

response here. One of the signatories said it is a travesty to

:43:15.:43:19.

suggest the breast in Britain can do in the midst of the worst refugee

:43:20.:43:22.

crisis since the Second World War is to take in 4000 refugees annually

:43:23.:43:27.

over five years. Do you think the UK should take in more? I think that is

:43:28.:43:32.

an unwise and ill thought through intervention. Britain has done more

:43:33.:43:35.

for the refugees than the entire European Union added together. We

:43:36.:43:39.

have spent over ?1 billion helping refugees. At the conference

:43:40.:43:43.

co-hosted by Kuwait and Norway this week, what they had to do is to get

:43:44.:43:47.

other countries to pull their weight, to step up, and make sure

:43:48.:43:51.

that people living in dreadful circumstances get the money from the

:43:52.:43:55.

international community. Thank you very much. Thank you Fiona company

:43:56.:44:00.

today, I will see you tomorrow. Goodbye.

:44:01.:44:02.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS