Labour Leaders Debate Victoria Derbyshire


Labour Leaders Debate

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This morning - who do you want to be the next leader of the Labour party?

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The two men who're battling it out for the top job are here with us

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It's not even a year since Jeremy Corbyn

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was elected leader of the Labour party - but after he lost

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the confidence of most of his MPs - he's now fighting to stay

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His challenger, a man called Owen Smith,

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not known by that many outside Westminster and his Welsh

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constituency; he joined the labour party at the age of 16 and has been

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As you can see we're joined by an audience of 100 people who're

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here to talk direct to the two wannabe prime ministers

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and to tell us what they think of the current state

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Hello, I'm Nazia, a mental health advocate and Labour voter.

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I think the party is an utter shambles at the moment.

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He exudes honesty and integrity, and despite his heavy rebranding, Owen

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Smith doesn't. Hi, I'm Maria, a charity

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worker and labour member. He's a much better communicator

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and the party is becoming Hello, I'm Collins

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a science teacher. For the first time I'm

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considering voting for the Conservatives, such

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is my disillusionment with both men We will definitely explore that

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further in the next couple of hours. And as always really

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keen to hear from you. Much to come from Mr

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Corbyn and Mr Smith - as well as from you -

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tell us what you think about the current state

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of the Labour party, whether you think Labour has become,

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as some have suggested, Tell us who you'd think

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would make the best leader Use the hashtag VictoriaLIVE

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and if you text, you will be charged

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at the standard network rate. Before we hear our audience

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and the two contenders in conversation, let's get

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the latest on the And another sensational

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night in the velodrome. Good morning, Victoria. Yeah, an

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amazing night. The size of their

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achievement cannot be underestimated, in fact,

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GB Cycling deserves Every single track cyclist that went

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to Rio will bring back a medal. Yesterday, Becky James

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and Katy Marchant took silver and bronze in the Women's sprint

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in the Velodrome too, with Golds from Jason Kenny

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and Laura Trott leading of Six Olympic Gold Medals held now,

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by he and Sir Chris Hoy. The 28-year old took the Keirin

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title in dramatic fashion after the race was restarted on two

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occasions because of infringements. It's his 7th medal in all at his

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third Olympic Games. I was there in Beijing, obviously,

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when Chris won his three, and I knew at the time

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it was special. And I think as years have gone by,

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I appreciate it even more, how special those Olympics were,

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and how amazing Chris was then. So to come here and do

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the same is amazing. Ten gold medals between

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you, that's not bad? There was an incredible

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achievement for Kenny's fiance, She became the first British Woman

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to win Four Olympic Gold Medals as she reatined the Omnium title

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she won at London She took the multiple

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race event by just 24 points to move clear of equestrian

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rider Charlotte Dujardin, who won her third gold

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at the weekend in Rio. And Trott was very emotional

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after securing gold with an exemplary performance

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in the hundred lap And it was a very emotional

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night for the couple. Trott greeted Kenny off

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the bike following his win, the pair now have 10 Gold

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medals between them. She tweeted afterwards

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saying 'our kids have to get some I think most people are hoping that

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comes after some more gold medals But good luck to the pair,

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they'll marry next month. They don't have to hold off until

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Tokyo! But we all want the medals, don't we? How proud Ayew of Team GB?

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They have smashed the medals target with five days to go, it is

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fantastic. Not just in the cycling where there

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were medals for Great Britain, Yes, virtually every morning we talk

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about medals for Team GB. performance from diver

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Jack Laugher. He won a silver

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in the men's individual 3 metres springboard final,

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six days after he claimed a synchronised gold alongside

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partner Chris Mears. That was Team GB's 50th

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medal of the Games. Theres's a special

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mention for Amy Tinckler, the 16 year old, and

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the youngest member of Team GB became the second woman

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to win an individual gymnastics She wins a medal a week before

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she gets her GCSE results. Fellow gymnast Nile Wilson took

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bronze on the high bars. All our medallists

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deserve a mention today, sailor Giles Scott won gold

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in the Finn class, and there was a boxing

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bronze for Joshua Buatsi. And there are even more medals

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guaranteed for Team GB? Yes there are. We will mention

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Nicola Adams in a moment. Plenty to come in the sailing.

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GB are currently second in the medals table with 19 Golds,

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two ahead of China and with 50 medals in all.

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Great Britain's Hannah Mills and Saskia Clark will win Olympic

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gold in the women's 470 sailing as long as they finish

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Nicola Adams too, she was back in action

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and became the first British boxer to win two

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Olympic medals in 56 years when advanced to the

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semi-finals of the women's flyweight division.

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It means she's guaranteed at least bronze as both losing semi

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So there is plenty for Team GB fans still to look

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So that's all the latest from the Olympics; now the rest

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of the days headlines with Annita McVeigh.

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Banks and accountancy firms that help their clients to unlawfully

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avoid tax could face huge fines under new proposals

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Ministers have published plans which would give courts

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the power to impose fines equivalent to the total amount of tax avoided.

:08:56.:09:01.

The US Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump has spoken

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out in support of the police after a series of fatal

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He's said the recent shooting of a black man by police

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And Mr Trump accused his Democratic opponent, Hillary Clinton,

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of being responsible for the unrest in the city, where he's been

:09:19.:09:21.

School leavers are being urged to get themselves vaccinated

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against a potentially deadly strain of meningitis.

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Public Health England and officials in Wales say

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the jab will help protect against Meningitis W,

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after the number of cases rose from 22 in 2009 to over

:09:32.:09:34.

Experts say new students are particularly at risk

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as they meet new people carrying unfamiliar bacteria.s

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as they meet new people carrying unfamiliar bacteria.

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The chief suspects in the murder of a woman from Bradford will appear

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Samia Shahid, a 28-year-old beautician,

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died last month in what is believed to have been a so-called

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Her former husband and her father are currently being held in custody.

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Hello and welcome to our programme on the future of Labour -

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we're live in Nottingham this morning.

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So, which of these men do you want to lead the Labour party

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Maybe it's neither but only these two are standing in this

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Jeremy Corbyn who defied the odds to win a labour leadership

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contest a year ago - but has since been dogged with

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Or Owen Smith a relatively new Labour MP -

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Even he admits he's not a household name

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But will that change come September 24th when the new

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In a sentence gentlemen,how confident you are that

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I feel very optimistic about it. We've received the support of over

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280 constituency Labour parties and we are touring the whole country,

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doing rallies and meetings in areas where there is Labour support but

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also Conservative held areas to take the campaign to the Tories of the

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kind of Britain we want to where there is decent housing, good

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education opportunities and a fully functioning, free NHS. APPLAUSE

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How confident can you be, Mr Smith, of winning, particularly now those

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constituency Labour Party is, almost 300, going for Jeremy Corbyn? A lot

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of those votes have been narrow and I'm confident I'm persuading people

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all over the country. I was in Oxford last night and I will be all

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over the country persuading people that we need to get ready for

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government and at the moment I think that needs we need to change the

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leader of the party, a bit more credible. Still radical and sticking

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to our roots and beliefs but perhaps speaking a bit more directly to the

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country. Let me tell you about our audience.

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voters is made up entirely of people who're either Labour members' Labour

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supporters or people who say they might vote Labour in a future

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general election depending on who the next leader is.

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A third of our audience - those sitting here -

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already know they want to support Jeremy Corbyn.

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This third, sitting here in the middle,

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Some have said they are here to hear both contenders and they may reach a

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conclusion by 11am. They don't yet know. They want to hear the two men

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in their own words, effectively. And this third sitting over

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here support Owen Smith. So tell us why you're supporting

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who you're supporting? Introduce yourself. And Peter Gates,

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I work in education in Nottingham. I support Jeremy because of his

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honesty, integrity and compassion. I've been to a number of meetings

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Jeremy has spoken at, and that each he has been an inspiration. Two

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people in a cross-section of the country. He's been an MP for over 30

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years and during that time he's been consistently supporting progressive

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causes, even though that may have been difficult for him sometimes

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with colleagues in the Parliamentary Labour Party. At the end of it I

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think Jeremy is a thoroughly decent bloke and he doesn't deserve to be

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treated in the way that he has so far by members of Parliament. We

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will definitely come back to your point about the way some members of

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Parliament have treated their own leader. And Steve, a solicitor, a

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long-standing member of the Labour Party and I'm voting for Owen Smith.

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Let us remember our history. Labour exists to get things done. That is

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the most important thing. If we don't get power we get nothing done.

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It's not a question of being left or right or anything. Let us remember

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the health service, let us remember what others have done. Labour has

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been a broad church in the past and what Harold Wilson said in the 60s,

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Labour is a broad church. We are in danger of becoming a narrow church.

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If we become a narrow church we will not win. Finally, Europe. I am

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passionately pro-Europe, I was extremely disappointed with you,

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Jeremy, if I can address you directly, you did not campaign hard

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enough, you did not go to the north-east. Why, I don't know. Just

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let me speak and you can talk shortly, OK? Can I move the

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conversation on? Yes, fine. But my general point is there. And I do not

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think we should lie down and accept Brexit, we should fight for our

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place in Europe. It is too important.

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I was under the understanding that Labour was the party had welcomed

:15:50.:16:01.

everyone, that clearly is not the case at the minute. I feel we are

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pigeonholed into a certain member of society, our reasons are questioned

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as to why we have joined the party, I feel I'm told you I should

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support, why I should support them, I am not as important... I spend a

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lot of time on twitter, from reading the media as well, the names have

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been called, I am mum on the Trinity leave, I'm not a cult member, I feel

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strongly about passion and getting involved in politics and now I feel

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I may have made a massive mistake because I'm not welcome, I am not

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important and I want to play a part in the future because my membership

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and the leaves are questioned, why worth of paying ?25 for a vote, I

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wonder why people should join the Labour Party, was that the kind of

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thing we do? As I said, I'm on maternity leave, things are tight,

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so it was a choice of doing something, I'm not saying my kids

:17:01.:17:04.

didn't get fed but it makes a lot of difference to someone and why should

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I have to pay to show that I want to be here and I want to play our part

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and fun to be the future of the Labour Party? I would love to sit

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where you guys are, how can I do that when I'm told mainly my place

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in the party isn't secure? Future leader perhaps! Good morning. My

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name is Karen, I am a planning consultant with a small business and

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a long-standing Labour member. I am unconvinced that either of you are

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actually suitable to lead this party. Why do you say that? I think

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there has been a lot of squabbling. At the end of the day, it is they

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lost sight that you are elected members, here to represent the

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electorate and the community, and the whole thing seems to have

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degenerated down to a playground type squabble. I am yet to be

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convinced and I'm here today because I would hope that one or both of you

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will convince me that you are suitable and appropriate and capable

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of leading this party and taking on the Conservatives in the next

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election. OK, let's hear a little bit

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about each of the candidates... They've both been briefed

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to tell us in one This is the nonpolitical slot, is

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it? I have been MP for Islington for a long time, since the 93, I live in

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the area, I love the community and I get a lot from meeting people, I'm

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involved in local community events and charities and so forth and learn

:18:54.:18:57.

a lot from talking to people, because everybody you meet know

:18:58.:19:00.

something you don't know. It's important in life to have a balance

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in what you do and don't become obsessive in your job. So I do a lot

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of other things, I run, I have an allotment, I read widely, I make

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things at home and I enjoy cycling very much and I spend as much time

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as I can on my bike because it's a way of getting great exercise, it's

:19:21.:19:25.

the most perfect form of technology... But you know Jason

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Kenny! Absolutely not but I had the pleasure of being interviewed by

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Bradley Wiggins for Radio 4 last Christmas and he thought my bike was

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a bit passe... He was right, but he didn't offer me a carbon fibre

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frame, which would have been nice! In life, you have to keep a balance,

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so understanding people, understanding our environment and

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society but above all being prepared to read widely, think differently.

:19:55.:20:01.

What book are you reading? I'm reading a novel written by a

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Bangladeshi writer who became a graduate at Harvard and then went

:20:05.:20:08.

back to Bangladesh and worked hard defending people who were employed

:20:09.:20:13.

as ship breakers on the beach near Chittagong, it has become quite

:20:14.:20:17.

violent in the way some of those workers have been treated and the

:20:18.:20:20.

life they lead and the corruption that goes on, I haven't got to the

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end. So far I doesn't look promising. Owen Smith. I'm reading a

:20:25.:20:34.

book called Purity, which is in no way ironic or about the Labour

:20:35.:20:40.

Party. I have been an MP for 60s, I was a BBC journalist at the

:20:41.:20:43.

beginning of my career and then worked for the last Labour

:20:44.:20:46.

government on the peace process in Northern Ireland for three years and

:20:47.:20:54.

then I worked for two big companies, I am wracked with nerves today, not

:20:55.:20:58.

because of appearing on this programme, because I'm looking

:20:59.:21:02.

forward to this but because the Smith household is expecting GCSE

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results next week and A-level results tomorrow, I'm looking

:21:07.:21:10.

forward to going home from here to see my son Jack who I haven't seen

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for a couple of weeks, to be with him tomorrow when he gets his

:21:14.:21:19.

results. I also have an allotment, like Jeremy, we had to get rid of

:21:20.:21:22.

hours because my wife started work as a schoolteacher, but I'm just

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stunned as he is of growing beans. You could share his allotment, he

:21:33.:21:36.

said! There is an image to conjure up. Digging for Britain! Debating

:21:37.:21:47.

the variety of potatoes. Some comments from you already. Rob says,

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I'm a Labour member but I am concerned about the ability of

:21:54.:21:57.

Jeremy Corbyn to be Prime Minister. Roz says, should the Labour Party

:21:58.:22:00.

suspended and investigate any member that describes any others as storm

:22:01.:22:02.

troopers stop? I see Corbin and Smith as dinosaurs,

:22:03.:22:34.

the world has moved on. I have been impressed by Theresa May and if she

:22:35.:22:39.

lives up to her word, she will get my vote, how does that make you

:22:40.:22:45.

feel? Absolutely terrible. We know there were potentially 2 million

:22:46.:22:48.

Labour voters who voted Labour at the last election who are

:22:49.:22:52.

contemplating voting Tory right now because we are at such a low ebb.

:22:53.:22:57.

Our printer should think about the rail industry, poor example, we

:22:58.:23:00.

built it, we have invested in it, the train operators are making huge

:23:01.:23:05.

profits out of it, shouldn't they get the public instead? Since Labour

:23:06.:23:16.

lost the general election in 2015 and Jeremy Corbyn was elected

:23:17.:23:20.

leader, the party has been riddled with infighting and mudslinging.

:23:21.:23:31.

The Conservatives are the largest party. This is not the speech I

:23:32.:23:40.

wanted to give today. Now it's time for someone else to take forward the

:23:41.:23:41.

leadership of this party. 251,000... We don't have to be

:23:42.:23:58.

unequal. It doesn't have to be unfair. Poverty isn't inevitable.

:23:59.:24:07.

Things can, and they will, change. Have you changed your position on

:24:08.:24:11.

air strikes? He is a good and decent man but not a leader. You are a Nazi

:24:12.:24:22.

apologist, rewriting history! I believe we have to boat to remain to

:24:23.:24:27.

defend investment, jobs and workers' rights. -- vote to remain. For these

:24:28.:24:35.

qualities, I don't believe that leader is Jeremy. I don't think he

:24:36.:24:40.

is in a position to provide leadership. I think I have served in

:24:41.:24:45.

the best way I can and today I have to go. I think he is likely to

:24:46.:24:49.

continue as leader of the Labour Party, he has the support of the

:24:50.:25:01.

membership. This party is teetering on the brink of extinction. It would

:25:02.:25:09.

be a good thing if Labour MPs got behind their leader. 172 voted no

:25:10.:25:19.

confidence in your leadership. And why on this camera? We have got to

:25:20.:25:24.

stop this now. -- am I on this camera?

:25:25.:25:43.

It really is a remarkable state of affairs.

:25:44.:25:50.

That music was incredibly dramatic! We will hear from you first. Good

:25:51.:26:00.

morning gentlemen, thank you becoming to Nottingham. My name is

:26:01.:26:05.

Dale and I live and work in this city forced my question is, there is

:26:06.:26:12.

an undeniable riffs, a chasm, that exist at the moment between the PLP

:26:13.:26:19.

and the core membership. Whichever of the unity gentlemen win the

:26:20.:26:22.

contest, you must fundamentally have the ability to heal this rift and

:26:23.:26:28.

unite the party. What is your question? If Mr Corbyn and Mr Smith

:26:29.:26:36.

could allude to how they are going to heal the rift. How do you unite

:26:37.:26:42.

the membership and your own Labour MPs if you win? The first thing to

:26:43.:26:48.

say in answer to that question, and the new member spoke earlier on, my

:26:49.:26:51.

experience is that although the members that I meet, the vast

:26:52.:26:56.

majority, they all joined the same reason I did, they all believe in

:26:57.:27:01.

when they to make Britain a fairer place, they want to improve their

:27:02.:27:06.

communities, they are all wanting the Labour Party to be a catalyst

:27:07.:27:09.

for change. We have got to start being honest that there is more that

:27:10.:27:15.

unites us than divides us. That is a slogan. If you are a leader, you

:27:16.:27:21.

have to make the part of how you address the party. I don't think

:27:22.:27:25.

there is a chasm between the PLP and the membership, I think both the PLP

:27:26.:27:30.

and the membership baldly want the same thing. There is laughter over

:27:31.:27:34.

there, I think there has been a force narrative created that there

:27:35.:27:39.

was a great chasm. What there was is a chasm between the large proportion

:27:40.:27:45.

of the PLP in Jeremy, and half the mothership, and the reasons that is

:27:46.:27:49.

we have been closer to Jeremy, we are the people who worked with him.

:27:50.:27:53.

If you work in a company or a council and look every at the way in

:27:54.:27:59.

which the leader of that body leads your group... If they don't do good

:28:00.:28:03.

job, it is there enough speed to say, we don't want that leadership.

:28:04.:28:15.

-- fair enough to say. There were some derisive laughter when Mr Smith

:28:16.:28:19.

said there wasn't this chasm between Labour and MPs, tell me why. The

:28:20.:28:24.

laughter is around the democracy, which brings me to the point I

:28:25.:28:34.

wanted to make. Before you ask a question I would like Mr Corbyn to

:28:35.:28:37.

answer the first question, how did you unite members and Labour MPs. A

:28:38.:28:44.

year ago I was elected leader of the party, might question was, we have

:28:45.:28:50.

changed economic message to one which was opposed to austerity and

:28:51.:28:55.

in favour of redistribution. I appointed a Shadow Cabinet that

:28:56.:28:58.

included people who absolutely opposed Mike election as leader, and

:28:59.:29:04.

I wanted to create a broad-based Shadow Cabinet and team and I will

:29:05.:29:06.

do exactly the same again if re-elected in September because I do

:29:07.:29:11.

want the PLP... It didn't work last time away with it at work this time?

:29:12.:29:18.

I would ask those Labour MPs to remember they had been elected like

:29:19.:29:22.

I have and like Irene has, as Labour MPs, we have a huge responsibility

:29:23.:29:26.

to resent our party and the people who elected us, so we had to work

:29:27.:29:32.

together on the issues of austerity, education, health, I will reach out

:29:33.:29:35.

to them and invite them to come on board and work together to achieve

:29:36.:29:45.

that. -- represent our party. You have already done that the number of

:29:46.:29:49.

occasions and continues to fail. I was faced with a series of organised

:29:50.:29:54.

and orchestrated resignations over a period of days. I have since

:29:55.:30:02.

appointed other people to be Shadow Cabinet who have worked extremely

:30:03.:30:08.

hard, Angela Rayner for example as Shadow Education Secretary, and if

:30:09.:30:10.

elected again, I will try and reach out to all members of the PLP and

:30:11.:30:16.

invite them to get on board because there are an awful lot of issues we

:30:17.:30:20.

can agree on and we can take the fight to the Tories and that is what

:30:21.:30:23.

Labour supporters and members and millions of voters want us to do.

:30:24.:30:30.

Why the groans when Mr Corbyn talked about orchestrated and organised

:30:31.:30:38.

resignations from his Cabinet? There have been a lot of reports from MPs

:30:39.:30:43.

who actually went against you and were probably centre leaning in the

:30:44.:30:47.

middle of the party who you did not work with. Like the MP who had

:30:48.:30:51.

cancer recently who was fired then reinstated or without her knowledge.

:30:52.:30:56.

And Jess Phillips recently did a thing where she came to you with

:30:57.:31:00.

reports of sexual harassment and abuse and your office didn't do

:31:01.:31:06.

anything. It seems to me there was one interview when you were being

:31:07.:31:11.

followed. Listen, I have dealt with, very strongly, and very robustly,

:31:12.:31:17.

any complaints about abuse on social media, personal abuse or abuse of

:31:18.:31:22.

anybody else, it has no place in any political party. I proposed and it

:31:23.:31:26.

was agreed unanimously a statement to the national executive of the

:31:27.:31:30.

party on behaviour and racism in the party, that is the position we have,

:31:31.:31:33.

it is not acceptable and tolerated by me or anybody else. We have an

:31:34.:31:39.

institutional enquiry into this and rule changes will follow. Labour

:31:40.:31:42.

will be the first political party to have a clear statement of antiracism

:31:43.:31:48.

within its party. What kind of rule changes with yellow rule changes to

:31:49.:31:52.

provide a due process of representation, adjudication and

:31:53.:31:56.

appeal. What does that mean? It means that anyone that is accused of

:31:57.:32:02.

making a wrong remark, a racist remark, will have the right to put

:32:03.:32:05.

their case, a right to representation, and of course will

:32:06.:32:08.

be suspended in the meantime while the investigation goes on. It will

:32:09.:32:13.

not be done just by promote group of people. Why will that stop abuse? It

:32:14.:32:18.

won't necessarily stop abuse but what it will do is make sure there

:32:19.:32:24.

is a clear line of decision-making, and a clear line of culture saying,

:32:25.:32:28.

we do not accept any of this in any shape or form within the party from

:32:29.:32:33.

whoever it comes. For example, the Jess Phillips think, when women in

:32:34.:32:41.

particular come to you with stories of abuse, the way you respond

:32:42.:32:45.

saying, I've been abused, too. But it's different. I did not say that.

:32:46.:32:51.

It seems like you don't understand. I have made it absolutely clear that

:32:52.:32:55.

any kind of abuse is totally unacceptable in any form. And that

:32:56.:33:01.

is the position of the party. But then why is it still happening? It

:33:02.:33:05.

is the position of all of us and I should imagine it is your position

:33:06.:33:09.

as well. You said to the Observer the best way to deal with abuse was

:33:10.:33:14.

ignorant. No, I said personal abuse to me, I am not willing to respond

:33:15.:33:20.

to it. So far as anybody else is concerned, I think they should

:33:21.:33:23.

report it and have it investigated and it should be closed down. Owen

:33:24.:33:29.

Smith, in an interview on our programming a few weeks ago you said

:33:30.:33:32.

to me you thought Jeremy Corbyn encouraged that kind of abuse. Well,

:33:33.:33:38.

I don't remember saying that. I think I'm very clear about it,

:33:39.:33:41.

Jeremy hasn't stamped down hard enough on it. Quite often when you

:33:42.:33:47.

ask Jeremy he says, you're abuse, I'm abused, and somehow that's OK. I

:33:48.:33:55.

did not say that. It was reported in the Observer. You do quite often

:33:56.:33:59.

respond by saying we are all abused and we should ignore it. I think the

:34:00.:34:05.

thing that people feel in the party is that you haven't stamped down on

:34:06.:34:08.

it hard enough. What would you do differently? In some of the

:34:09.:34:13.

instances where we had anti-Semitic abuse within the Labour Party, we

:34:14.:34:19.

should kick those people out of the party. There isn't any place for it.

:34:20.:34:25.

There have been occasions when Jeremy has just not seemed bothered

:34:26.:34:29.

enough by it. So you'd go straight Fritz Balsam rather than any enquiry

:34:30.:34:34.

-- you'd go straight for expiry rather than an enquiry? Lots of the

:34:35.:34:41.

Jewish Labour MP colleagues feel that Jeremy wasn't quick enough to

:34:42.:34:46.

condemn anti-Semitic abuse. We are the Labour Party and we are having a

:34:47.:34:50.

debate on national television about anti-Semitism and misogyny within

:34:51.:34:53.

the Labour Party. That should make us all deeply ashamed, in my view.

:34:54.:35:00.

We should respond much stronger than saying abuse is bad, I'm going to

:35:01.:35:05.

ignore it. You know there have been 19 people suspended, most of those

:35:06.:35:09.

cases predate my leadership, they are under investigation, a decision

:35:10.:35:13.

will be made on them. You know that as well as I do. We have put forward

:35:14.:35:18.

a very clear policy on this. That's something you and I completely agree

:35:19.:35:23.

on. Can we agree we want this party to be one that is inclusive, open,

:35:24.:35:27.

welcoming, that does not tolerate any kind of foul language, racism in

:35:28.:35:31.

any form whatsoever, I'm sure we agree. Maybe we should just be clear

:35:32.:35:39.

about this. There are shades of hard left opinion in Britain that have

:35:40.:35:44.

drifted into anti-Semitic abuse because of their concerns about

:35:45.:35:49.

Israel. And that is at the heart of concerns of many in the party. This

:35:50.:35:55.

is absolutely true. Nobody is going to deny that on the hard left of

:35:56.:35:58.

politics in this country and elsewhere across the West there has

:35:59.:36:02.

been anti-Semitism, it's absolutely fact that that has been the case.

:36:03.:36:06.

The point people feel is that we need to make sure. On the hard right

:36:07.:36:10.

and on the hard left there has been that. People feel at very best we

:36:11.:36:15.

have been insensitive to those concerns. And we should be the party

:36:16.:36:23.

that speaks the decency and tolerance. For us to be mired in a

:36:24.:36:26.

debate about anti-Semitism is truly shaming of us all. Hello. And

:36:27.:36:35.

Jessica from Derby, and I've been a member of the Labour Party for three

:36:36.:36:41.

years now. And recently I've been considering going to the Labour

:36:42.:36:47.

Party conference in September. And I would much rather, I would feel more

:36:48.:36:51.

comfortable going to a Conservative conference saying I'm a Labour

:36:52.:36:54.

supporter than going to the Labour Party conference saying I'm an Owen

:36:55.:36:59.

Smith supporter. Wow, seriously? Seriously. Personally I haven't had

:37:00.:37:04.

much abuse but that's because my presence online is very small. But I

:37:05.:37:10.

went to the youth Labour Party conference and there were some

:37:11.:37:13.

things that went on there that really went acceptable. And I'll

:37:14.:37:18.

admit it was on both sides. But I definitely felt just because I

:37:19.:37:22.

didn't support Jeremy or I wasn't a massive supporter of Jeremy at the

:37:23.:37:28.

time, that I was somehow different to other people, and that there was

:37:29.:37:35.

just so much going on at all these conferences. Just sometimes I don't

:37:36.:37:38.

feel comfortable going to large groups of Labour members. You should

:37:39.:37:45.

feel comfortable at any Labour Party meeting or conference whatever your

:37:46.:37:49.

point of view, absolutely. I was at the Labour youth conference for the

:37:50.:37:52.

last day, I spoke to a lot of members. Clearly there had been an

:37:53.:37:57.

awful lot of arguments the previous day, some of which I think had been

:37:58.:38:01.

deeply unpleasant. Indeed we asked for a report on the national

:38:02.:38:04.

executive and looked at the way in which the Labour youth conference is

:38:05.:38:08.

run, to make sure that it is more open, more inclusive, and absolutely

:38:09.:38:12.

tolerant of differences and differences of opinion. And that is

:38:13.:38:17.

the Labour way of doing things. Can I ask for an example of what you

:38:18.:38:20.

said was unacceptable, bearing in mind this is the school holidays,

:38:21.:38:25.

morning television, an example of something that went on that you

:38:26.:38:29.

found abhorrent? There was Twitter abuse. I don't really want to

:38:30.:38:32.

mention any names. But there was twitter abuse against all sides of

:38:33.:38:38.

the party. I specifically remember one girl had to go out crying. And

:38:39.:38:45.

she was a supporter of Jeremy. And I felt that it was really unfair on

:38:46.:38:48.

her, just because she supported Jeremy. There was nothing wrong with

:38:49.:38:55.

what she said. But it's the general behaviour on your site. Some people

:38:56.:38:58.

forget that Twitter is something that is going to be there for all

:38:59.:39:03.

time. They make totally uncalled for, unpleasant remarks. It happens

:39:04.:39:07.

in all walks of life and it shouldn't happen. And people should

:39:08.:39:11.

remember that if you say something on Twitter or Facebook it is

:39:12.:39:13.

basically there the whole world every time. We are against it, I am

:39:14.:39:21.

sure you are, to. But there is a reason it is happening, Jeremy,

:39:22.:39:24.

because we have become divided between people who are supportive of

:39:25.:39:27.

you and the rest of the Labour Party. The truth is unfortunately

:39:28.:39:31.

some people seem to feel that you are the only socialist in the Labour

:39:32.:39:36.

Party. Some people seem to feel that you are the only guardian of our

:39:37.:39:39.

values because you've voted against the last Labour government a lot.

:39:40.:39:45.

The truth is I'm not a red Tory, I'm not a Blairite, I'm a socialist same

:39:46.:39:49.

as you, but I am being castigated. Again they laugh but I'm just

:39:50.:39:53.

telling the truth. I have never considered myself a Blairite, I have

:39:54.:39:58.

always considered myself a socialist. Unfortunately in this

:39:59.:40:01.

current climate, if I'm not supporting Jeremy I am both of those

:40:02.:40:04.

thing and all of the PLP members are both those things, and we are not.

:40:05.:40:09.

You must acknowledge that, Mr Corbyn, if people are not supporting

:40:10.:40:14.

you, they feel castigated as conspiracy theorists or not pure

:40:15.:40:19.

enough, as Owen Smith says? Well, in my experience there has always been

:40:20.:40:22.

huge levels of debate within the Labour Party. But the atmosphere has

:40:23.:40:29.

become toxic? Well, how do you know? I attend large numbers of labour

:40:30.:40:33.

events all over the country, at the moment we are doing a leadership

:40:34.:40:37.

campaign, for that I attended large number of events where there were

:40:38.:40:41.

people of all shades of opinion having an intelligent, respectful

:40:42.:40:44.

discussion and debate, and that is how you should do things at all

:40:45.:40:49.

times. People here, do you think the atmosphere has become toxic? Yes. Do

:40:50.:40:58.

you know why that is, though? My name is Chris, I returned to the

:40:59.:41:01.

Labour Party because of Mr Corbyn, I went to the Green party during the

:41:02.:41:06.

Blair years due to the fact they were relating on so many manifesto

:41:07.:41:13.

promises. NHS, Iraq war. You mentioned a poignant words to me

:41:14.:41:16.

when we talk about policy, narrative. How is narrative built?

:41:17.:41:22.

How do we construct perceptions, and how are these perceptions

:41:23.:41:25.

orchestrated or developed? Largely through the media. Before Jeremy

:41:26.:41:31.

Corbyn was even elected he was being brandished as unelectable, this

:41:32.:41:34.

dangerous left-wing rogue, he rebelled against his government so

:41:35.:41:37.

many times, without looking at the detail of what he rebelled against.

:41:38.:41:40.

He rebelled against principled things, chiefly the Iraq war. I

:41:41.:41:46.

remember him talking in 2003 about the Iraq war, and how are these

:41:47.:41:52.

narrative is being formed? This man is the embodiment of so many

:41:53.:41:55.

principles which expose so many other MPs within the Parliamentary

:41:56.:42:00.

Labour Party, we can look at people voting records online. Owen Smith

:42:01.:42:03.

has a very credible voting record and I agree with a lot of his

:42:04.:42:10.

positions. And this lady who suffered abuse in Derby, Twitter

:42:11.:42:16.

lends itself to an incredible amount of saturation. I am getting

:42:17.:42:21.

passionate just talking about it, but people are passionate and lose

:42:22.:42:24.

sight of what the discussion is. Sessions get the -based into

:42:25.:42:30.

narratives and sound bites. For our audience across the UK, I want to

:42:31.:42:33.

bring them a film which talks about the history of this toxic

:42:34.:42:39.

environment which I know you say is not necessarily accurate, that lets

:42:40.:42:44.

look at some of the facts in the last 12 months or so. There has been

:42:45.:42:49.

a report into anti-Semitism, there have been allegations from various

:42:50.:42:54.

female Labour MPs, as our guest over here mentioned. These are the facts.

:42:55.:43:00.

When does Democratic debates stopped and intimidation begin? Allegations

:43:01.:43:08.

of abuse in Labour really started with the Syrian war vote, around a

:43:09.:43:12.

court of the party MPs voted against the leadership and four air strikes.

:43:13.:43:18.

A number of online threats were made against those MPs. Senior party

:43:19.:43:22.

figures called for the abuse to stop. I'm asking what your reader

:43:23.:43:26.

should do about the bullying of your colleagues? A firm line needs to be

:43:27.:43:30.

taken, a code of conduct around social media, there cannot be abuse.

:43:31.:43:35.

Some threats were blamed on activists linked to momentum. There

:43:36.:43:43.

was talk of unsupportive MPs being sacked or be selected if they did

:43:44.:43:50.

not fall into line. Momentum insisted it was not organising

:43:51.:43:52.

deselection is an strongly disapproved of brilliant. You are

:43:53.:43:57.

rewriting history. Allegations of a different kind of abuse in Labour,

:43:58.:44:02.

this time Ken Livingstone and Labour MP Naz Shah were both suspended

:44:03.:44:07.

after claims comments they made were anti-Semitic, or anti-Jewish. An

:44:08.:44:09.

independent enquiry was launched into racism in Labour. Why are you

:44:10.:44:15.

continuing to hold on? Then it became clear that Jeremy Corbyn

:44:16.:44:19.

would face a leadership challenge. A brick was thrown through the window

:44:20.:44:22.

of the constituency office of his early rival Angela Eagle. Is it true

:44:23.:44:31.

you have had death threats? The police are looking into it. More

:44:32.:44:35.

than 40 Labour MPs signed a letter relating to rape and death threats.

:44:36.:44:39.

Owen Smith said not enough was being done to clamp down on misogyny. Has

:44:40.:44:43.

he encouraged it? I don't know but I think he has not been strong enough.

:44:44.:44:47.

He has genuinely not understood what a grave problem this is. It is

:44:48.:44:52.

acclaimed Jeremy Corbyn and firmly denies. He points out that he has

:44:53.:44:57.

also been the subject of much abuse and adds that there should be

:44:58.:45:00.

dignity even when there is disagreement. Where there are

:45:01.:45:03.

disagreements in our party we settle them through democratic means. No

:45:04.:45:06.

coups, no intimidation, no abuse. So those are some of the facts, much

:45:07.:45:21.

more from the audience, could just ask you Mr Corbyn about the report

:45:22.:45:23.

into anti-Semitism. June 30 we would get one nomination,

:45:24.:45:43.

I thought somebody with her record as a human rights lawyer, would make

:45:44.:45:48.

an enormous contribution to the House of Lords. I think everybody

:45:49.:45:52.

should welcome that. She is somebody of enormous talent and was general

:45:53.:45:57.

secretary of Liberty for a long time. On the day David Cameron

:45:58.:46:07.

resigned, you offered it to her, would she say? Shouldn't she was

:46:08.:46:12.

pleased to accept it and would work hard and take the Labour whip. Do

:46:13.:46:18.

you accept the acquisition of bias, you asked her to carry out the

:46:19.:46:21.

report, she joined the party, is carried out the report which said

:46:22.:46:24.

there wasn't widespread anti-Semitism within the labour

:46:25.:46:27.

movement, then you offered her the peerage. Anybody who knows Shami

:46:28.:46:32.

Chakrabarti would know she's a person of the most incredible

:46:33.:46:36.

intellectual rigour... Can I finish? Rigour and and she used a report,

:46:37.:46:42.

she met a very large number of people, she produced a report which

:46:43.:46:45.

has proposed a series of rule changes and a process of educational

:46:46.:46:50.

involvement within the party which was well received by the entirety of

:46:51.:46:55.

the National executive of the party. And you accept that the sequence of

:46:56.:47:00.

events leads some to see there is a perception of bias? I hope maybe

:47:01.:47:04.

would do that, they will recognise her as somebody of great value and

:47:05.:47:08.

strength to our society assembly will stand up for human rights and

:47:09.:47:12.

the liberty of everybody in this country. -- as somebody who will

:47:13.:47:21.

stand up. My name is Jane, I'm a young Labour member, with just 4% of

:47:22.:47:27.

the Jewish labour movement voting for you, Jeremy, if you become

:47:28.:47:30.

elected as leader again, what policies will you put in place to

:47:31.:47:34.

make them feel included in the Labour Party? I will meet the Jewish

:47:35.:47:38.

labour movement as indeed I have met many other Jewish organisations, who

:47:39.:47:45.

have given me a lot of very helpful advice. I have had meetings with the

:47:46.:47:48.

board of the parties and others and will continue that dialogue and

:47:49.:47:51.

inclusion with, because the history of the whole Jewish community, the

:47:52.:47:57.

abominable way they have been treated hysterically, but also the

:47:58.:48:02.

huge radical tradition of the Jewish community, many great causes, I will

:48:03.:48:09.

be jacked up in the same way I want to reach out all communities. It it

:48:10.:48:14.

still a big issue despite the report? I have friends who joined

:48:15.:48:19.

the Labour Party the day after we lost the election, those friends

:48:20.:48:22.

resigned the day that you became leader and they are Jewish friends

:48:23.:48:27.

of mine. Getting them back on board, we are struggling, because they just

:48:28.:48:30.

don't believe this is a safe party for them to be a part of. And if

:48:31.:48:34.

Owen Smith was elected, would they rejoin? They would consider it.

:48:35.:48:41.

Anti-Semitism in the labour movement. The report was carried out

:48:42.:48:45.

by Shami Chakrabarti, some said it was a whitewash, others warmly

:48:46.:48:49.

received and said the recommendations she put out there

:48:50.:48:51.

should help alleviate this, what do you think? I have met with a couple

:48:52.:48:58.

of repairs and tips of the Jewish community and the Jewish labour

:48:59.:49:02.

community, and I think the proof of the report is they don't think it is

:49:03.:49:09.

adequate. -- a couple of representatives. They think it

:49:10.:49:11.

doesn't acknowledge the extent of the problem, and that is one of the

:49:12.:49:15.

reasons they have lost faith in Jeremy. They did nominate me this

:49:16.:49:18.

week and I'm proud they have done that. There was a great big sigh

:49:19.:49:24.

from somebody over here, I am not sure why. I don't know why either,

:49:25.:49:29.

did anybody should be saying about something as important as Labour

:49:30.:49:34.

appealing to one of the communities that has traditionally supported us.

:49:35.:49:46.

The Tories, about 8% of the... We should all be concerned about that.

:49:47.:49:54.

I am a trade unionist, an elected member of my national indicative

:49:55.:50:01.

committee, my union are cooked Alli supporting Jeremy in this. I want to

:50:02.:50:05.

bring back the emphasis of Labour history but also about being an

:50:06.:50:11.

elected member. As far as I'm concerned the Labour Party and

:50:12.:50:15.

myself believe that the core of things is democracy. For me, Jeremy

:50:16.:50:18.

is elected as our leader for the Labour Party. Some people might not

:50:19.:50:24.

like that, the PLP and those MPs are elected by members to be the voice

:50:25.:50:29.

of those members in the parliamentary arena. At the end of

:50:30.:50:34.

the day, I have also seen, for example, Owen, you have said on

:50:35.:50:42.

previous debates that regarding the EU referendum, that you would hold a

:50:43.:50:45.

second one. I disagreed with the result, I was on the doorstep with

:50:46.:50:55.

other Labour MPs campaigning for a Remain vote, but that is democracy

:50:56.:51:01.

at the end of the day. Can I ask you what you feel about the fact this

:51:02.:51:05.

contest is even taking place? I think it is disgraceful and

:51:06.:51:08.

disappointing that the voice of the members of not being heard. Those

:51:09.:51:12.

MPs are there to represent us as ordinary members, not for their own

:51:13.:51:19.

views or careers. You are doing it to further your own career? I am a

:51:20.:51:27.

trade unionist myself. I am with trade unions that are related to the

:51:28.:51:30.

Labour Party and that is important to point out. The other thing I

:51:31.:51:34.

would say is Jeremy used to believe that we should have an election to

:51:35.:51:37.

the leadership of the Labour Party every year. He said so many times in

:51:38.:51:45.

the past. Why is he no worries, or are his supporters worried about

:51:46.:51:48.

their being a challenge? It is not a challenge. Crucially, I am elected

:51:49.:51:58.

by my constituents in Pontypridd. That is the Labour manifesto on

:51:59.:52:02.

which I stood, much of which Jeremy did support, I'm also here to

:52:03.:52:07.

represent my people in Pontypridd and I am very worried that my people

:52:08.:52:13.

in Pontypridd will not have a Labour government in Westminster to support

:52:14.:52:18.

them and the Welsh Labour government with Jeremy as leader. Remember, we

:52:19.:52:23.

have a third of the audience who support Owen Smith, third to support

:52:24.:52:26.

Jeremy Corbyn and this group here who don't yet know. They may choose

:52:27.:52:34.

neither in the end. I allowed yes or no, thinks Owen Smith as leader,

:52:35.:52:38.

when a general election against Theresa May. -- a loud yes or no.

:52:39.:52:44.

What about Jeremy Corbyn, could he do that? The most important people

:52:45.:52:51.

didn't really say anything. This is what you call shouting democracy! In

:52:52.:53:02.

all its many forms. This can of it, there are people who adore you, Mr

:53:03.:53:06.

Corbyn, think you could win a general election, people who respect

:53:07.:53:11.

you don't think you could win a general election because you can't

:53:12.:53:17.

draw in the... What is it? Tens of millions who vote in a general

:53:18.:53:23.

election. Those people have never been to a valley. I think we can

:53:24.:53:30.

appeal to a younger generation, of the advantages of a Labour

:53:31.:53:35.

government that would support them in education, would support them in

:53:36.:53:38.

housing, would support them in training and apprenticeships. I

:53:39.:53:43.

think we can also appeal to an older generation who are worried about the

:53:44.:53:46.

future of the National Health Service and worried about the future

:53:47.:53:49.

of this country, when we have a government that is progressively

:53:50.:53:53.

deindustrialisation of reducing the strength of our economy. And the

:53:54.:53:59.

triple lock on pensions, is that something you would back? I would

:54:00.:54:05.

want to keep that and also to the issue of women being short-changed

:54:06.:54:11.

by the increase in retirement age and have proper transitional

:54:12.:54:15.

payments. I have looked at the 50 polls that have been done since the

:54:16.:54:18.

beginning of this year, Internet polls, in 45 of them, the

:54:19.:54:23.

Conservatives are ahead of you, sometimes by as much as 14 points.

:54:24.:54:34.

Listen. When this is over, this party has got to get together, take

:54:35.:54:39.

on the Tories on housing, education, health, and we can do that.

:54:40.:54:48.

Because I think that is at the heart of this, most people can see there

:54:49.:54:54.

isn't a huge difference between me and Jeremy on all sorts of policies.

:54:55.:54:59.

There really isn't. We should be spending more money on the NHS,

:55:00.:55:04.

building housing. You disagree on Trident and on Europe. I think which

:55:05.:55:10.

still should be fighting to stay in the European Union. But Jeremy can't

:55:11.:55:17.

escape the reality that we are at 28% in the polls, the lowest we have

:55:18.:55:23.

been since 1982. At this trajectory, we will be at 22% at the next

:55:24.:55:27.

election and that would decimate the Labour Party, and without winning an

:55:28.:55:31.

election, all of the things he and I want to do to improve this country

:55:32.:55:33.

will be for naught. As you know, I came to see you try

:55:34.:55:52.

to sort this out. You came to see me and said he would come to support

:55:53.:55:56.

me... You offered me a job that didn't exist, that I would be

:55:57.:56:01.

opposed to and then resigned, it was strange. The truth is, we are and

:56:02.:56:13.

incredible low ebb at the moment, and our communities, we can't afford

:56:14.:56:17.

to sit through, as I sat through in my youth, 18 years of the Tories.

:56:18.:56:21.

How much do you accept responsibility for the low ebb? I

:56:22.:56:25.

think we have been incredibly weak as an opposition. I think all of us

:56:26.:56:32.

in the Labour Party need to accept I am asking about you personally.

:56:33.:56:41.

Three things Jeremy loves to talk about, the PLP victory over the

:56:42.:56:44.

Tories on disabled benefits, I want that for the Labour Party. No, we

:56:45.:56:54.

won that. No, we want that. Jeremy, I had one meeting with you in nine

:56:55.:56:59.

months about those issues. So if you were helping me, it wasn't obvious.

:57:00.:57:06.

Tax credits, PIP, getting rid of Iain Duncan Smith... How much are

:57:07.:57:11.

you personally responsible for the crisis the party found itself in

:57:12.:57:18.

now, on a scale of note to 100? Let's say three. We were behind in

:57:19.:57:27.

85% of the polls. And the same question to you. How much they

:57:28.:57:30.

believe you are responsible for the crisis in the Labour Party were now

:57:31.:57:34.

on that scale? Owen Smith says he is 3% responsible. I'm not good

:57:35.:57:39.

stopping figures on it, I have done my best to reach out is of the PLP,

:57:40.:57:47.

the green paper together, Owen is quite right, we did defeat the

:57:48.:57:54.

government on PIP, forced academise assertion, I say we because every

:57:55.:57:57.

Labour member and the bolted together on that, and Labour numbers

:57:58.:58:02.

of voters together on that. Could I reach out more, I will do my best to

:58:03.:58:06.

reach out as far as I can. But it is a two-way, reciprocal process.

:58:07.:58:11.

Please could you answer the question. I don't think it is

:58:12.:58:17.

possible to put graded figures on this, can we discuss policies? We're

:58:18.:58:26.

going to talk about policies in the next hour of the programme posted by

:58:27.:58:29.

will give you one more opportunity to answer that. I will reach out to

:58:30.:58:36.

people as I have in the past. I want the party members they used to be

:58:37.:58:40.

represented. Do you think you have done a lot of reaching out, do you

:58:41.:58:46.

think it works? It can work on certain occasions. Give me an

:58:47.:58:52.

example. When you have become United. I have worked very well with

:58:53.:58:58.

Andy Burnham since it became Shadow Home Secretary. I have been very

:58:59.:59:05.

happy to work with Owen on the issues he was for responsible for,

:59:06.:59:08.

with John McDonnell on the issues he is responsible for. So yes, it is a

:59:09.:59:15.

broad church, of course it is, it has always been. I am from

:59:16.:59:22.

Loughborough, I am a Unison steward and I work for children in care. I

:59:23.:59:25.

have been a member of the Labour Party for 35 years and my dad was a

:59:26.:59:31.

member, he is a member and my mum is. I am passionate about the Labour

:59:32.:59:34.

Party, I love it and what it stands for, the legacy of things we have

:59:35.:59:40.

created, the welfare state, conference of schooling, the NHS, we

:59:41.:59:43.

should be immensely proud of that and it breaks my heart to see what

:59:44.:59:49.

the party currently is, we have spent this programme are going

:59:50.:59:52.

amongst ourselves about what the party should be doing and we have

:59:53.:59:56.

this devastating Tory government that is affecting and crippling the

:59:57.:59:59.

lives of the people we should be representing. I would be insisted,

:00:00.:00:08.

to rethink either could be a Labour Party Prime Minister, whether Jeremy

:00:09.:00:11.

believes he can genuinely believe an election. We saw a video earlier the

:00:12.:00:16.

last election, and the announcement that the Tories had one in every

:00:17.:00:20.

time I see that, it breaks my heart. I don't want to see that again. We

:00:21.:00:24.

can't afford that as a country and the people hit by austerity cannot

:00:25.:00:26.

afford that again. Good morning. I am Sarah. I work for

:00:27.:00:39.

the Royal College of Nursing. The state of the Labour Party, it is in

:00:40.:00:45.

the name, party. If you have a leader, it is the responsibility of

:00:46.:00:48.

the rest of the party to get behind that leader. This is not the time to

:00:49.:00:57.

break apart the Labour Party. Leader Mr classic opportunity to pounce on

:00:58.:01:02.

the Tory party when they were in disarray over Brexit. This debate

:01:03.:01:12.

should have been the line. -- been away down the line. My name is

:01:13.:01:19.

Adrian. I am a Labour supporter and proud. But I am getting disappointed

:01:20.:01:23.

and disillusioned with the infighting. I feel like it is

:01:24.:01:28.

damaging the Labour brand. It is making is unelectable. We need to

:01:29.:01:36.

get our act together and be united. I really hope that can happen. What

:01:37.:01:41.

will it take? It will have to happen after the leadership. If it doesn't,

:01:42.:01:48.

we are in big, big trouble. My name is Rachel. I rejoined the Labour

:01:49.:01:55.

Party when Ed MIliband became leader. I thought we had moved back

:01:56.:02:00.

to our core values to protect working People's rights. And was

:02:01.:02:04.

very disappointed in Ed Miliband. I was pleased when Jeremy was elected.

:02:05.:02:09.

This situation now is very depressing. It is so divisive. I am

:02:10.:02:16.

getting abuse and people who support Jeremy Corbyn are getting abuse.

:02:17.:02:24.

They're putting pictures of Chairman Mao and Stalin on the backdrop. It

:02:25.:02:29.

is on both sides. The chair of my local branch is doing that. When I

:02:30.:02:34.

go to my local branch meeting in September, it will be awkward

:02:35.:02:37.

because I feel there is a huge division and I don't feel respect is

:02:38.:02:42.

being made by the Owen Smith supporters and I feel like the

:02:43.:02:48.

debate is getting more and more depressing and puerile. We must talk

:02:49.:02:53.

about the issues. Winnie to talk about why people didn't vote for

:02:54.:03:03.

Labour. I believe people voted for Ukip because we have abandoned our

:03:04.:03:10.

traditional values. The champagne politics of Blair have taken over. I

:03:11.:03:14.

left the Labour Party under Tony Blair. I was very depressed. When Ed

:03:15.:03:23.

Miliband took over, I thought great. And now I am depressed because I

:03:24.:03:28.

think that ever happens, MPs have created a divisive atmosphere. We

:03:29.:03:37.

have another hour of conversation to come. We will be joined by listeners

:03:38.:03:42.

on Radio 5 Live as well. It's Wednesday, it's 10am,

:03:43.:03:50.

I'm Victoria Derbyshire. Welcome to the programme,

:03:51.:03:55.

today we're live in Nottingham. Plenty more debate

:03:56.:04:07.

between Mr Corbyn, Mr Smith We need to get ready for government.

:04:08.:04:26.

I think that means to change the leader and be more credible across

:04:27.:04:31.

the country. Still radical. But speak more directly to the country.

:04:32.:04:36.

If elected again, I will try and reach out to all members of the PLP

:04:37.:04:40.

and invite them to get on board. There are an awful lot of issues we

:04:41.:04:45.

can agree on and we can take the fight to the Tories. That really is

:04:46.:04:48.

what Labour members and millions of other voters want us to do. Our

:04:49.:05:00.

audience here are 120 Labour supporters, Labour members and those

:05:01.:05:03.

who would consider voting Labour in the future. They have told us they

:05:04.:05:08.

are concerned that the nature of the debate has become uncomfortable.

:05:09.:05:23.

The two contenders have clashed about the levels and direction of

:05:24.:05:31.

abuse within the party. Some people seem to feel you are the socialist

:05:32.:05:38.

in the Labour Party. Some people feel you are the only Guardian of

:05:39.:05:44.

our values. The truth is, I am not a red Tory. I am not a playwright, I

:05:45.:05:52.

am a socialist, same as you. Again, they laugh. I have never considered

:05:53.:05:57.

myself Blairite. I have always considered myself a socialist. Can

:05:58.:06:02.

we agree we want is party to be inclusive, open and welcoming, but

:06:03.:06:08.

doesn't tolerate foul language racism in any form. Good morning. I

:06:09.:06:24.

am Victoria Derbyshire. We live in Nottingham today. We have been

:06:25.:06:28.

debating with the two men who want to run the Labour Party. Jeremy

:06:29.:06:35.

Corbyn and Owen Smith. Year with an audience of 120 Labour supporters,

:06:36.:06:38.

Labour members and people who would consider voting Labour in the

:06:39.:06:42.

future. A lot of the conversation in the last half hour particularly has

:06:43.:06:46.

been about Labour members so upset about the state of their party,

:06:47.:06:50.

Labour members have recently joined who believe they have entered a

:06:51.:06:54.

toxic environment and they don't like that feeling.

:06:55.:07:18.

There has been some emotion and a lot of passion. In the next hour, we

:07:19.:07:22.

want to talk about the kind of promises Owen Smith and Jeremy

:07:23.:07:24.

Corbyn are making to their supporters in order to get elected

:07:25.:07:27.

as leader. Can we also say hello and good morning to listeners from BBC

:07:28.:07:30.

Radio Five Live who join us right now. As I said, in the last

:07:31.:07:32.

half-hour, we have heard lots of conversation. We will ask both men

:07:33.:07:35.

to set out their policies in a second. We have already talked about

:07:36.:07:37.

Labour and the potential problem of nastiness and general abuse to

:07:38.:07:40.

anyone who might disagree with the Labour leadership. But first, our

:07:41.:07:49.

audience in Nottingham have been split up into groups. Over here,

:07:50.:07:59.

people who support Jeremy Corbyn. Over here, people who support Owen

:08:00.:08:09.

Smith. And over here, people who have not yet made up their mind and

:08:10.:08:13.

me in the end choose neither of the two men here today. What about those

:08:14.:08:19.

parts of the electorate they will need to attract if the are to stand

:08:20.:08:28.

any chance of winning an election. This is Croydon Central. Currently

:08:29.:08:35.

held by a conservative by just 165 votes. So the Labour Party knows it

:08:36.:08:39.

needs to win here if it is going to win the general election. It is

:08:40.:08:45.

third on their target list. But what does the target audience make of

:08:46.:08:49.

these two? Do you know who this gentleman is? He is an MP. I don't

:08:50.:08:59.

know his name. He is the Labour leader at the moment. Am not too

:09:00.:09:09.

sure who he is. Who is he? What has he done? He hasn't got any history

:09:10.:09:14.

of supporting labour cause is. Jeremy has been supporting causes

:09:15.:09:21.

since the 1970s. That is the man. What you think of this man? Samac I

:09:22.:09:31.

wouldn't have him in my government. He is at Trotsky. Total Trotsky. He

:09:32.:09:39.

is a wrong one and he is a wrong one. He should step down. Why is he

:09:40.:09:53.

a good Labour Leader? He hasn't changed his views in terms of social

:09:54.:10:01.

mobility. Housing. He has been very consistent. I hope he gets it

:10:02.:10:15.

because Labour want one for a hundred years. I really hope he gets

:10:16.:10:21.

voted in. Saw the Conservatives went? Yes. There we go. Not that

:10:22.:10:34.

many recognised you, Owen Smith. Here is an opportunity for our

:10:35.:10:38.

audience across the country to get to know you better. Short and

:10:39.:10:45.

concise answers, please. Owen Smith, what is worse, being described as a

:10:46.:10:55.

Tory or a smarmy nonentity slaved in ambition, that was from your former

:10:56.:11:03.

boss. Described as a Tory. Who's your favourite conservative

:11:04.:11:12.

politician? Don't have any. When was the last time he got angry? 20

:11:13.:11:18.

minutes ago because we are debating the future of the Labour Party which

:11:19.:11:22.

is at a low ebb. People in this country can't afford not to be a

:11:23.:11:30.

Labour government. How much is petrol? ?1 not far out. I have some

:11:31.:11:47.

photographs. Pop quiz Time. It is. For radio listeners, I will tell you

:11:48.:11:51.

the answers in a second. Can you name who is in this photograph?

:11:52.:12:01.

Taylor Swift and Justin Bieber. I like singing she kept on karaoke.

:12:02.:12:07.

How many medals has Jason Kelly achieved over his entire cycling

:12:08.:12:16.

career? Loads. Seven. Don't know. Six. What was the Wales against

:12:17.:12:28.

Belgium score? 3-0. I was in the pub and I had had a few. I know we won

:12:29.:12:41.

and I celebrated with gusto. 3-1. What is Jeremy Corbyn's best

:12:42.:12:47.

quality? He has a nice line in cream suits. Here's a great man with

:12:48.:12:52.

principles but I don't think he is a leader. At the moment, he is leading

:12:53.:13:04.

us to a loss. Would you serve in his Shadow Cabinet if he wins and

:13:05.:13:10.

invites you into it? I am someone with integrity. I have lost faith in

:13:11.:13:18.

his ability to lead as. I would serve on the backbenches. Hundreds

:13:19.:13:26.

of times he voted against as. 455 times on all sorts of issues. I will

:13:27.:13:33.

always be Labour. Jeremy Corbyn, what do you prefer, Blairism or

:13:34.:13:39.

Trotskyism? I would have to say neither. Can you name the three

:13:40.:13:52.

things that you admire about Tony Blair? The fact he took through the

:13:53.:13:57.

whole Northern Ireland peace process with great determination. He did

:13:58.:14:02.

that extremely well. The fact he supported the National Minimum Wage.

:14:03.:14:07.

And the fact his government brought in the Human Rights Act and paved

:14:08.:14:17.

the way for workers' rights. Would you call yourself a feminist? Yes.

:14:18.:14:24.

When was the last time you cried and what was it about? Can't remember,

:14:25.:14:30.

so I don't know what it was about. I don't do a lot of crying. How much

:14:31.:14:37.

does a first-class stamp cost? 50p. 65? I'm holding up a picture of two

:14:38.:14:50.

young men. I think they have just reached 40. Do you know who these

:14:51.:14:58.

two men are and which one is which? I will give you a clue. They are

:14:59.:15:05.

Geordie TV presenters. They are Geordie TV presenters. Now, I don't

:15:06.:15:11.

know. I cannot name them. I am really sorry. That is ant and deck.

:15:12.:15:20.

They are Labour supporters. I know. Be sent an e-mail of support. I will

:15:21.:15:29.

apologise humbly to Ant and Dec. I do apologies, it's all right.

:15:30.:15:30.

Goodness me. How many Olympic golds has Sir

:15:31.:15:45.

Bradley Wiggins achieved so far? 15, I think, altogether. Gold. Ten.

:15:46.:15:56.

Lola. You tweeted it was eight and it was deleted. Deleted by whom? Has

:15:57.:16:06.

my Twitter account and hack into? Let's go for eight. You tweeted on

:16:07.:16:13.

Friday, congratulations to Bradley for his eighth gold medal, it's not

:16:14.:16:21.

eight, its... It is still a great achievement. What is the best thing

:16:22.:16:28.

about Owen Smith? He's passionate and direct and he gets very excited.

:16:29.:16:33.

I have seen you get excited, what's wrong with that? What is the worst

:16:34.:16:39.

thing about Owen Smith. That he resigned from the Shadow Cabinet,

:16:40.:16:47.

and he should come back. So if you win, you will extend an invitation

:16:48.:16:50.

to him to come back to the Shadow Cabinet even though he has said he's

:16:51.:16:55.

not going to. People change. Would you serve in his Cabinet if he won?

:16:56.:17:04.

If he invites me, but he might want to think about that. I understand.

:17:05.:17:12.

Jeremy asked that last week and I said last week as I have said on two

:17:13.:17:17.

occasions, yes I would want Jeremy in the Shadow Cabinet. But he

:17:18.:17:21.

definitely don't want to be president. Because the position

:17:22.:17:29.

doesn't exist! And leader can propose, the party can decide.

:17:30.:17:37.

We do have a chairman, we could elevate that role, as we have in the

:17:38.:17:47.

past. Harold Lasky. What do you think about what you have heard from

:17:48.:17:51.

these gentlemen? Quick thoughts before talk about policies. Jeremy

:17:52.:18:00.

keeps saying... My name is leaving, I have come from Yorkshire to be on

:18:01.:18:03.

the show. I just wanted to say Jeremy has mentioned that Owen

:18:04.:18:08.

Menard asking to be part of the Shadow Cabinet, what was the

:18:09.:18:13.

rationale behind that? He has asked me so the question is answered. I

:18:14.:18:21.

suppose so, sorry. Quick thoughts. As an Labour Party, when we talk

:18:22.:18:26.

about policies which unite us, it's fantastic, and we should do that

:18:27.:18:31.

more, and do it more in the media as well, instead of just being seen as

:18:32.:18:34.

bickering all the time, which clearly you guys here today are not.

:18:35.:18:39.

Quick thoughts before we talk about policies. Trust and confidence in me

:18:40.:18:45.

to be maintained and there needs to be unity and feel that on the first

:18:46.:18:50.

hurdle, by resigning, by going against Mr Corbyn with the other PLP

:18:51.:18:54.

members, that trust and confidence has been severely damaged, how can

:18:55.:18:58.

we ever get behind somebody else when they have stabbed somebody in

:18:59.:19:04.

the back, and I think this culture, we want somebody who is honest and

:19:05.:19:10.

sticks to his principles stop when I first heard about Mr Corbyn when I

:19:11.:19:13.

joined the Labour Party last year, I looked at his record and thought,

:19:14.:19:17.

this guy has stuck with his message, 15 of those who are bigger, looking

:19:18.:19:25.

to build this country into a gradation -- lifting up those who

:19:26.:19:31.

are weaker. Review, I think a lot of public regressions and celebrity

:19:32.:19:40.

culture. -- with you. He is not a bad man because he recognised Taylor

:19:41.:19:45.

Swift and Justin Bieber. He's bubbly and very decent man. But a

:19:46.:19:53.

backstabber! By the act of resigning. What other conclusion can

:19:54.:19:57.

I come up with when I see somebody resigning from somebody who has been

:19:58.:20:00.

elected by the members of the Labour Party, I am a new member and I feel

:20:01.:20:06.

criminalised by this process. Simply because of the... We do not run

:20:07.:20:13.

away... Answer the point about being a backstabber. Tell him, not me. I

:20:14.:20:23.

feel I am elected by my constituency in Pontypridd and I think it would

:20:24.:20:25.

be letting them down if I didn't speak out at a point at which the

:20:26.:20:31.

Labour Party was being led toward irrelevance. I think we have lost a

:20:32.:20:34.

huge degree of credibility, I don't think people are looking to the

:20:35.:20:39.

Labour Party now as an alternative government, the evidence is the fact

:20:40.:20:43.

we have been behind in over 100 polls, Jeremy isn't the only person

:20:44.:20:46.

who wants to make Britain great will deliver our values in power, we all

:20:47.:20:51.

want that in the Labour Party but to do it, we have to be in power and

:20:52.:20:54.

the principled reason I have resigned from the Shadow Cabinet is

:20:55.:20:58.

a don't believe Jeremy Campbell wind power for us. -- can wind power for

:20:59.:21:10.

us. We are going to talk about policies now. We have talked about

:21:11.:21:17.

the current state of the Labour Party. What do the two men stand

:21:18.:21:23.

for? The recent Jeremy Corbyn says he ran in his first leadership

:21:24.:21:26.

contest was to increase the choice party members had in who should

:21:27.:21:30.

represent them. This time however, first boating only have a choice of

:21:31.:21:38.

two and their policies are similar. Owen Smith want to abolish zero

:21:39.:21:41.

hours contracts. Jeremy Corbyn does, too. Jeremy Corbyn wants to scrap

:21:42.:21:46.

the government Veritas trades union act and so this Owen Smith. Both

:21:47.:21:53.

wanted we nationalise the railways. Both want to see a 100% publicly on

:21:54.:21:58.

the NHS that is free at the point of use, and both with the C major

:21:59.:22:01.

investment in the north of England. They often have the same principles

:22:02.:22:08.

and it's to see first glance what separates them. Jeremy Corbyn says

:22:09.:22:11.

he will guarantee 1 million new homes within four years, Owen Smith

:22:12.:22:18.

has pledged to build a 1.5 million within five years. Mr Smith says he

:22:19.:22:22.

will ensure the billion pound investment in the economy focusing

:22:23.:22:28.

on jobs in the future, Jeremy Corbyn as proposed investing 500 billion to

:22:29.:22:32.

invest in new industries and to pay towards it Jeremy Corbyn wants to

:22:33.:22:37.

reinstate the 50p top rate tax and plans 1% increase in corporation

:22:38.:22:42.

tax. Owen Smith also wants to reintroduce the 50p top rate tax and

:22:43.:22:45.

has proposed a further wealth tax on the top 1% of earners. Both also

:22:46.:22:52.

want to protect the welfare state. Owen Smith want to scrap the

:22:53.:22:55.

Department for Work and Pensions, and Jeremy Corbyn says he would

:22:56.:23:01.

scrap the house benefit tax. On green energy Jeremy Corbyn wants to

:23:02.:23:05.

ensure the UK meets the gold outlined in the climate change act

:23:06.:23:09.

while Owen Smith was to invest in renewable energy. And on foreign

:23:10.:23:13.

policy, Owen Smith says he was against the Iraq war or he wasn't

:23:14.:23:19.

able to vote. Jeremy Corbyn Azores implement the opposed, both voted

:23:20.:23:25.

against air S strikes in Syria. Jeremy Corbyn is permanently opposed

:23:26.:23:32.

to the renewal of Trident and Mr Smith is in favour. Jeremy Corbyn

:23:33.:23:36.

has pledged to punish university commission fees and Owen Smith

:23:37.:23:40.

hasn't set out a policy although he has previously voted against the cap

:23:41.:23:44.

of ?9,000 a year. Owen Smith believes there should be another

:23:45.:23:47.

referendum to approve the government's terms to leave the EU,

:23:48.:23:54.

it remains to be seen whether these differences are enough for Owen

:23:55.:23:56.

Smith to cause a shock. All but one council area here in

:23:57.:24:06.

Nottinghamshire, where we are this month, including the city centre,

:24:07.:24:10.

voted to leave the European Union, from an area where seven out of 11

:24:11.:24:15.

of its MPs are Labour, exactly the kind of area that the new Labour

:24:16.:24:19.

leader, whoever wins, needs to win over and convinced he is an

:24:20.:24:24.

electable. But if you want to spend more on new housing, both want to be

:24:25.:24:30.

nationalised railways, it spent on infrastructure projects, increase

:24:31.:24:34.

some taxes. Your tax increases white paper you're spending plans, though.

:24:35.:24:41.

The tax increases would obviously help but it is investment in the

:24:42.:24:45.

economy, hence the national investment bank which would help to

:24:46.:24:50.

grow the economy, if we improve public transport links, we improve

:24:51.:24:53.

all transport links and particularly access to bus transport for

:24:54.:24:57.

everybody, that becomes a hopeful economic generator. How much do need

:24:58.:25:02.

to grow the economy by pay for all the things you want to do? We need a

:25:03.:25:07.

growth rate that would continue to increase government income... By how

:25:08.:25:15.

much? At the moment the growth rate is very low, 2% at a very least we

:25:16.:25:23.

can achieve. How do you make up the shortfall? Some of it would be done

:25:24.:25:31.

from burrowing through investment, it is much more efficient to burrow

:25:32.:25:36.

through a national investment government back rather than forcing

:25:37.:25:39.

the debts onto local authorities, hospitals and schools through things

:25:40.:25:42.

like the privately financed initiative or borrowing at a more

:25:43.:25:45.

local level which is much more expensive, we had to invest. What is

:25:46.:25:53.

your plan... For growing the economy, that would pay for the

:25:54.:25:56.

things you want to spend money on, your plan for reducing the 70

:25:57.:26:01.

billion deficit? The growth of the economy and tax income would help to

:26:02.:26:06.

achieve that... Not if you're spending it on infrastructure

:26:07.:26:11.

projects... Universal childcare, etc. They generate growth, childcare

:26:12.:26:18.

generates growth, good education generates growth. The public sector

:26:19.:26:23.

investment is a win all round in the sense that it develops the economy.

:26:24.:26:27.

It'll be a lot of economic growth you will need to pay for all of

:26:28.:26:30.

that, do you acknowledge it is low at the moment although the fastest

:26:31.:26:36.

in the G7? It is, it could go on at faster, we had the lowest level of

:26:37.:26:41.

investment of any G7 country and we are pretty low on the overall list,

:26:42.:26:45.

we have to invest a lot more in order to achieve the economic

:26:46.:26:50.

success we need. Owen Smith, your sums don't add up either, how you

:26:51.:26:54.

get the paper would you are promising your supporters? My sons

:26:55.:26:59.

do add up, Rice said explicitly that I would raise ?13.5 billion worth of

:27:00.:27:05.

extra taxes, through changing the 50p rate, introducing a wealth tax,

:27:06.:27:09.

not cutting inheritance tax, capital gains tax, but in corporation tax

:27:10.:27:14.

back up to 20% and changing the pension tax relief that is ripping

:27:15.:27:18.

off working people and making sure working people get a better deal out

:27:19.:27:21.

of that, although things would raise money and allow me to pay for

:27:22.:27:26.

getting would of the public sector pay freeze, introducing 4% per

:27:27.:27:32.

annum, by the end of the parliament on the NHS, all of the

:27:33.:27:37.

infrastructure spend would come from raising ?200 billion in burrowing,

:27:38.:27:42.

through issuing long dated government gilts, 40 billion a year

:27:43.:27:47.

for five years, not a single economist disagrees about that. It

:27:48.:27:56.

would allow me to invest. If you are doing all that burrowing, if you

:27:57.:27:59.

don't get the massive growth that you hope for, which we haven't had

:28:00.:28:04.

for a few years, you are acknowledging your guide to be

:28:05.:28:05.

burrowing Malcolm the deficit will go up. The thing that should be

:28:06.:28:12.

crucial is growing the economy, can we afford to leave our children with

:28:13.:28:17.

crumbling hospitals,... You are passing on the debt. At the moment

:28:18.:28:22.

we are passing on failing infrastructure and an inability for

:28:23.:28:27.

children to go to university, the row asked us to deal with the

:28:28.:28:29.

problems for older generations. It is crucial we invest. At. We pay for

:28:30.:28:38.

housing benefit which pays for high rent in the products rented sector,

:28:39.:28:44.

if we diverted that money into building lifetime tenancy council

:28:45.:28:47.

houses, investing in housing, you create jobs in construction and the

:28:48.:28:52.

supply chain and give people a quality-of-life didn't get at the

:28:53.:28:55.

moment and give children a security of knowing their home is their own

:28:56.:28:59.

rather than the threat of being moved every six months in the

:29:00.:29:05.

private rented sector. Comments and questions. My question is for Owen.

:29:06.:29:19.

I am a Jeremy Corbyn supporter. I am a passionate Jeremy Corbyn

:29:20.:29:23.

supporter. I left the Labour Party when Tony Blair won his leadership,

:29:24.:29:28.

and I rejoined the day journey one stop that says how it think. -- the

:29:29.:29:40.

day Jeremy one. What were you thinking when they won on this three

:29:41.:29:44.

times that Labour won general elections? In all honesty, he did

:29:45.:29:51.

make a few good things happen, like Jeremy has just said. But he could

:29:52.:29:58.

have done a lot more. What is your point on policy? I am passionate

:29:59.:30:05.

about Trident issue. I'm curious to know if Owen is in favour of the

:30:06.:30:09.

Trident project at a cost of 200 leading or even more, would he be

:30:10.:30:15.

prepared to press that button and possibly kill millions of people? --

:30:16.:30:21.

200 billion. And if so, why does that lie within the morale of the of

:30:22.:30:22.

the Labour Party and our movement? Can you first see, I believe we

:30:23.:30:34.

shouldn't be lung busting the record of the last Labour government. We

:30:35.:30:42.

raised the minimum wage. We trebled funding on the NHS. We made sure we

:30:43.:30:46.

were raising wages in this country. It was a period of economic growth.

:30:47.:30:53.

Cities like Nottingham were transformed. It wasn't Labour

:30:54.:31:00.

spending on schools and hospitals that cause the bankers crash. I am a

:31:01.:31:05.

multilateralist. I want to read the entire world of nuclear weapons. We

:31:06.:31:11.

have a disagreement about how best we do that. UN Jeremy believe we

:31:12.:31:16.

should unilaterally get rid of our weapons and hope everybody else

:31:17.:31:20.

follow suit. My view is that is naive. I used to hold that view and

:31:21.:31:25.

I don't any longer. I believe we should negotiate away our nuclear

:31:26.:31:30.

weapons in order to get rid of everyone's nuclear weapons. If we

:31:31.:31:36.

have a nuclear weapon and a deterrent, of course the leader of

:31:37.:31:39.

the Labour Party and the money won't be Prime Minister has to be prepared

:31:40.:31:44.

to say that he would be prepared to deploy the nuclear deterrent. This

:31:45.:31:52.

speaks to the issue of credibility. The country wants the Labour Party

:31:53.:32:00.

to be serious about this -- the security of our country. The world

:32:01.:32:06.

is dangerous. I think they want a Labour Party that will maintain the

:32:07.:32:12.

security of our country. You famously said he would not press the

:32:13.:32:17.

button. You said you would keep the submarines but there would be no

:32:18.:32:24.

weapon systems on them. They would-be non-nuclear weapons.

:32:25.:32:29.

Security is crucial. Issues around the world are crucial. The use of

:32:30.:32:34.

nuclear weapons is unconscionable by anybody I would've thought. One

:32:35.:32:39.

nuclear explosion anywhere in the world would set off a chain reaction

:32:40.:32:45.

of human and environmental disaster around the globe we agreed with

:32:46.:32:55.

article six we would take steps towards disarmament. Security in the

:32:56.:33:08.

world can be dealt with by respect for human rights, by a process which

:33:09.:33:24.

seeks to bring an agreement across the world. Issues in Syria and Libya

:33:25.:33:41.

cannot have that sort of response. In Syria, would you sit down with

:33:42.:33:46.

President Assad, would you sit down with members of so-called Islamic

:33:47.:33:51.

State? There has to be a political process and there already is being

:33:52.:33:55.

conducted through the Geneva talks. That does involve negotiations with

:33:56.:34:01.

the Assad regime. Also I suspect it brings in some kind of proximity

:34:02.:34:06.

talks or whatever. Owen Smith and I both voted against the bombing of

:34:07.:34:10.

Syria because we couldn't see any credible use of it or value to it

:34:11.:34:15.

because what was then going to happen was a plethora of people

:34:16.:34:20.

opposed to Assad, including the Al-Nusra Front Gage, who were close

:34:21.:34:25.

to Al-Qaeda. We have to support a serious political process and that

:34:26.:34:30.

has to be redoubled. With this process involved anyone from

:34:31.:34:38.

so-called Islamic State? Not around the table, no. I worked on the

:34:39.:34:44.

Northern Ireland peace process for three years. I helped bring to

:34:45.:34:52.

gather the loyalist paramilitaries and the DUP. Ultimately all

:34:53.:34:56.

solutions to these sorts of crises and international crises come about

:34:57.:35:00.

through dialogue. Eventually, if we are to try and solve this, all of

:35:01.:35:05.

the actors still need to be involved. At the

:35:06.:35:16.

moment,... At some point, we will need to get people around the table

:35:17.:35:24.

to solve this. All morning we have had differences. We have not gone on

:35:25.:35:30.

to how we will reconcile those changes. The Trident question is

:35:31.:35:35.

probably the one issue on which that was the greatest Adam but we have to

:35:36.:35:46.

come up with a practical solution. Jeremy Corbyn is likely to win the

:35:47.:35:53.

leadership election. We know that, let's be practical. How will you

:35:54.:35:59.

reconcile the fact there are 172 Labour MPs who do not hold that

:36:00.:36:08.

position? How will you reconcile the official position of the Labour

:36:09.:36:15.

Party that we are a multilateralist, and the countries is a whole

:36:16.:36:19.

believes on that nuclear deterrent? And on that one single issue we may

:36:20.:36:23.

well lose all the other good things the Labour Party could potentially

:36:24.:36:39.

achieve in this country. Thank you for the question. We are undertaking

:36:40.:36:44.

a review of defence policy. The Defence Secretary has it in his

:36:45.:36:47.

hands to present a report which will come together on issues of future

:36:48.:36:54.

defence strategy in all aspects, not just the nuclear aspect. My view is

:36:55.:37:00.

that we should fulfil our obligations under the treaty. We are

:37:01.:37:11.

one of only five declared nuclear weapons states. There are all made

:37:12.:37:16.

three other states that are known to have nuclear weapons. 187 countries

:37:17.:37:20.

don't have them, don't want them and want to live in a nuclear free

:37:21.:37:30.

world. There is a huge movement around the world which says security

:37:31.:37:35.

comes about when you deal with inequality, with injustice, you deal

:37:36.:37:40.

with insecurity and the refugee crisis. What Park could nuclear

:37:41.:37:49.

weapons play in all of that? Good morning. We have a Labour leadership

:37:50.:37:53.

programme this morning featuring Owen Smith and the incumbent Jeremy

:37:54.:38:00.

Corbyn. Some messages before we get more questions. This e-mail from

:38:01.:38:06.

Paul, are Jeremy Corbyn and Owen Smith the best the Labour Party can

:38:07.:38:12.

do? Neither have credible policies and the Conservatives must be

:38:13.:38:16.

jumping with joy. Another e-mail, Jeremy Corbyn has spent a lot of his

:38:17.:38:25.

parliamentary career voting against the party whip. Why should he expect

:38:26.:38:35.

party members to get behind him? I voted on Iraq, anti-terrorism

:38:36.:38:41.

legislation, student fees, PFI contracts and some other issues. I

:38:42.:38:45.

fulfilled my role as a backbencher during that. I did not indulge in

:38:46.:38:51.

abuse of anybody. I put forward a credible political view that I

:38:52.:38:55.

believed to be one in tune with a lot of opinion of flavour members

:38:56.:39:02.

and Labour supporters. I recognise there is dissent in any big party.

:39:03.:39:10.

You come together on fundamental issues. How we chased down

:39:11.:39:15.

austerity, housing, health and other issues that we have spoken about

:39:16.:39:20.

this morning. I admire anyone who doesn't know and an deck. I am a

:39:21.:39:30.

notably public appointed by the Archbishop of Canterbury. And the

:39:31.:39:33.

passionate Labour supporter. Brexit, David Cameron and yourself, you try

:39:34.:39:38.

to convince the country we should remain in Europe. The man had the

:39:39.:39:44.

decency to stand down. You didn't. Do you take responsibility that we

:39:45.:39:49.

lost by 2% and you're responsible for that? 4%. If we had two more

:39:50.:40:04.

percent, we would have won. Obviously if more people voted to

:40:05.:40:07.

remain we would have won the referendum and I wish we had. Hang

:40:08.:40:13.

on. Two thirds of all Labour supporters voted to remain. Less

:40:14.:40:19.

than one third of supporters voted to remain. The results were very

:40:20.:40:28.

different in different parts of the country. My constituency voted 70%

:40:29.:40:38.

to remain. Do you take responsibility that you were

:40:39.:40:42.

responsible? I did my best in that campaign. I didn't see you on TV

:40:43.:40:55.

once. Mr Corbyn, the point is I followed the arguments for and

:40:56.:40:58.

against passionately. David Cameron, I am a member of the Labour Party

:40:59.:41:06.

and would not be seeing dead voting for the Tories, but David Cameron

:41:07.:41:11.

came across far more passionately than you ever did. Ever did. The

:41:12.:41:18.

point I was making in the referendum campaign are to leave Europe and you

:41:19.:41:23.

lose workers' rights, consumer rights and environmental protection

:41:24.:41:27.

rights. You end up with the danger of losing market access for British

:41:28.:41:32.

manufacturing industry in Europe. I pointed that out. I also pointed out

:41:33.:41:36.

the had to be changes in the European Union, like the rules on

:41:37.:41:42.

state aid, like the attempt to enforce privatisation of Postal

:41:43.:41:46.

Service and real service and the European Union had to be more

:41:47.:42:01.

responsive to the views across Europe. You said those words, but

:42:02.:42:05.

sometimes it felt like he didn't mean them. I have one or two points

:42:06.:42:16.

to say. Can I ask you to make one so we can get more people in? I will

:42:17.:42:23.

try and be as short as I can. Right, I want to talk about the situation

:42:24.:42:30.

with the MPs. Because I believe that every member of the Labour Party has

:42:31.:42:34.

a right to an equal say in who the leader will be and what the policies

:42:35.:42:40.

will be, irrespective of whether they are MPs are not. I want to

:42:41.:42:46.

emphasise the point a million people went out onto the streets, some said

:42:47.:42:51.

2 million at the start of the Iraq war. Those people were right to. All

:42:52.:42:59.

those Labour MPs who voted for the Iraq war were wrong. Doesn't that

:43:00.:43:07.

say something? Doesn't that mean that ordinary members of the Labour

:43:08.:43:12.

Party need to be part of the decision-making process? Not just

:43:13.:43:22.

fodder for elections. Thank you. I am a 19-year-old Labour member and I

:43:23.:43:30.

support Jeremy Corbyn. For a long time, I supported Brexit. I

:43:31.:43:33.

eventually voted remain and that had nothing to do with Alan Johnson and

:43:34.:43:38.

the tone of the Labour campaign. I think Jeremy struck the town

:43:39.:43:43.

correctly. We should stay in and perform. There is lots of

:43:44.:43:48.

overenthusiastic Europhiles who don't understand that many

:43:49.:43:52.

working-class people in our country voted to leave because they felt

:43:53.:43:55.

disconnected with the establishment. That campaign failed to engage with

:43:56.:44:01.

them. Jeremy's town and the town of other people working in the Europe

:44:02.:44:06.

is possible campaign that got me to change my mind. Owen Smith. I don't

:44:07.:44:19.

blame Jeremy for us walking out of Europe. But I do think it is a

:44:20.:44:23.

desperate mistake for our country. All of the things Jeremy and I want

:44:24.:44:28.

to do will be immeasurably harder by being outside the European Union.

:44:29.:44:32.

Look at the results yesterday. The crucial question is now about the

:44:33.:44:36.

future. Now we are walking out of the European Union at some point. I

:44:37.:44:39.

think the question is for Jeremy and for me, what will we do as leader of

:44:40.:44:48.

this party in the event that David Davis and Liam Fox sell down the

:44:49.:44:51.

river our rights in this country, social protections, environmental

:44:52.:44:56.

protections, the NHS. I am clear, we should reject that and put it back

:44:57.:45:01.

to the British people in a second referendum or a general election. If

:45:02.:45:11.

a government crosses red line is, such as environment protection,

:45:12.:45:17.

consumer protection, market access, those things are crucial. The debate

:45:18.:45:27.

is very fundamental. The Tory party is in a discussion about it, let's

:45:28.:45:32.

put it in a polite form. Are we to become a kind of bargain basement,

:45:33.:45:38.

low-wage, deeply unequal island off the shores of Europe... Can I

:45:39.:45:45.

finish? Instead, we need have a high investment economy, we need to have

:45:46.:45:54.

these things enshrined in UK law. Crucially, there has to be access to

:45:55.:45:59.

the European market for British manufacturing. Neither of you have

:46:00.:46:04.

mentioned freedom of movement of people. There were Labour voters in

:46:05.:46:09.

labour heartlands in the North East of England in particular who voted

:46:10.:46:13.

to leave because they are anxious about that. Neither of you seem to

:46:14.:46:18.

have anything to say to those Labour voters.

:46:19.:46:24.

I acknowledge the concerns and the upset. People voted against for lots

:46:25.:46:33.

of reasons. They felt left behind in communities where they had been no

:46:34.:46:38.

investment, they felt high levels of unemployment and they felt they were

:46:39.:46:43.

getting lower wages. They felt disconnected from you because you

:46:44.:46:47.

are pro increasing levels of net migration and they are not. What I'm

:46:48.:46:54.

saying is there has to be investment in those communities so there is a

:46:55.:46:57.

migrant impact on, partly funded by the EU and partly by the government,

:46:58.:47:03.

the Tories abolished that funding, which would help the problems of

:47:04.:47:07.

education, health and so on, where the funding formula is inadequate

:47:08.:47:11.

and it is this government that is destroying the public services in

:47:12.:47:17.

every major city in this country. We've got about 12 when it's left, I

:47:18.:47:21.

will ask people to be as concise as possible if I may. -- 12 minutes

:47:22.:47:28.

left. On our Facebook page, your chance to ask questions about the

:47:29.:47:31.

leadership debate with our political correspondent Chris Mason, who is

:47:32.:47:41.

getting ready now somewhere. Just search for BBC News on Facebook.

:47:42.:47:50.

More from our audience. I am Catherine, and I am 13, I am worried

:47:51.:47:56.

about my future because I want to get college and I want to go to

:47:57.:47:59.

university but I'm going to be stuck with semi-student fees and the

:48:00.:48:03.

reason I am worried is because my mum got free education, but because

:48:04.:48:10.

I will be in debt when I'm older, it'll affect me even more and more

:48:11.:48:12.

opportunities. Tuition fees, would you scrap them?

:48:13.:48:34.

Yes, he said I hadn't laid out a policy, I have, I said I would scrap

:48:35.:48:37.

them and introduce a graduate tax, that is the fairest way I can see

:48:38.:48:41.

the deal with this issue. We have been warning for a long time that

:48:42.:48:47.

this rise to ?9,000, the cap being taken off that will mean fewer and

:48:48.:48:50.

fewer children from working-class backgrounds in this country going to

:48:51.:48:56.

university. That happened two weeks ago. The first time ever, we have

:48:57.:49:02.

seen a reduction from 66, the 62%, so what we have been warning is

:49:03.:49:07.

coming to pass. My eldest is getting his AF 's results, he wants to go to

:49:08.:49:10.

university but they will be people like us around the country wondering

:49:11.:49:15.

whether it is worth racking up 50 grand in debt if you are going to

:49:16.:49:18.

end up with a low-wage, insecure jobs. Take it back slightly, we have

:49:19.:49:26.

to restore the educational maintenance allowance to encourage

:49:27.:49:30.

young people to remain in school. Ensure that every young person gets

:49:31.:49:36.

the option of a good quality, qualification through an

:49:37.:49:38.

apprenticeship or going to university so we have parity of

:49:39.:49:42.

esteem on the levels of qualification and we have to get rid

:49:43.:49:47.

of the iniquity of ?9,000 a year student fees and the loss of

:49:48.:49:49.

maintenance grants which means these massive debts. Other countries don't

:49:50.:49:54.

do it, they value and invest in education. I will pay for it through

:49:55.:50:01.

increase in corporate taxation. That is how you would pay for the... The

:50:02.:50:08.

graduate tax, I think you could end up meaning that because you have a

:50:09.:50:11.

qualification, I would rather attacks because they are wealthy

:50:12.:50:14.

rather than just because of the qualification. -- attacks deliberate

:50:15.:50:24.

a tax. The increasing corporation tax is going to pay for introducing

:50:25.:50:29.

student grants and reintroducing the educational maintenance allowance,

:50:30.:50:32.

how would you pay for tuition fees? They would also be paid for through

:50:33.:50:37.

increases of taxation at that end, at the moment what we're doing is

:50:38.:50:42.

asking students to fund universities rather than the public to fund

:50:43.:50:45.

universities. I would rather move into the other way around. Do you

:50:46.:50:50.

know which tax you would put up for scrapping tuition fees? It would be

:50:51.:50:54.

largely on levels of corporate taxation. I do want to hear from the

:50:55.:51:04.

audience. My name is the owner I am from Kirkby in Ashfield, I have a

:51:05.:51:09.

question on corporate tax. -- the owner. The corporations have been

:51:10.:51:15.

able to avoid, being clever, enabled them not to pay the levels of tax,

:51:16.:51:19.

they have paid large dividends to their shareholders and less

:51:20.:51:23.

corporation tax. How will you actually make them pay tax without

:51:24.:51:30.

them going, we are leaving! We need jobs but we need investment from

:51:31.:51:37.

them. I would say that we have to do country by country reporting, of

:51:38.:51:44.

each big corporation. So they can't shift their supposed income from a

:51:45.:51:48.

high tax environment to a low tax environment, therefore companies

:51:49.:51:53.

that shift their head offices and claim turnover in Switzerland where

:51:54.:51:58.

in the elegy it is paying a low level, tax should be paid on the

:51:59.:52:04.

place you earn the money and make the money, chasing down tax havens

:52:05.:52:11.

that are often in British Overseas Territories, with these convenient

:52:12.:52:15.

badge companies. I simply said to our media constantly put forward

:52:16.:52:18.

this idea that somehow it is clever to avoid tax, it isn't. That is what

:52:19.:52:23.

you don't get ambulances, don't get a Fire Service, don't get hospital.

:52:24.:52:34.

How would you do this? We had to legislate to make sure that

:52:35.:52:36.

companies pay tax on the profits that they own in this country. I

:52:37.:52:40.

don't think it's any more complicated than that. At the moment

:52:41.:52:44.

were heading towards a 17% corporation rate, half that of

:52:45.:52:49.

America, half that of most of our European neighbours. I don't think

:52:50.:52:53.

it would result in flight of business from this country, think

:52:54.:52:56.

businesses in this country benefit massively from having an educated

:52:57.:53:01.

workforce through public finance, having a healthy workforce

:53:02.:53:04.

throughout public NHS, and I think most businesses in this country

:53:05.:53:09.

would be happy to pay a bit more in order to support our country and we

:53:10.:53:14.

should encourage them to do that. I have been a Labour member for about

:53:15.:53:18.

a year and I want to ask you both about the NHS, he best talk about

:53:19.:53:21.

putting a lot of money into the NHS but I want to ask where it's going

:53:22.:53:27.

to go. -- you both talk. I see the mental health services in this

:53:28.:53:29.

country have been content to degraded by the conservative

:53:30.:53:33.

government, they are getting worse and worse, young people having to

:53:34.:53:36.

wait a year for mental health appointment that could be the

:53:37.:53:41.

difference. I want to ask, how would you make it better, if either of you

:53:42.:53:47.

were Prime Minister? I saw this first hand just a few weeks ago when

:53:48.:53:52.

my brother was admitted to an NHS hospital for a week with an issue

:53:53.:53:58.

around mental health, and I saw what an incredible Cinderella service it

:53:59.:54:04.

is. I would invest. I think very simply, we need to invest an extra

:54:05.:54:10.

4% per annum in the NHS, 60 billion, we were in Wales and I was going to

:54:11.:54:15.

a brand-new mental health hospital in Cardiff, built by the Welsh

:54:16.:54:18.

Labour government, because we are still investing in our NHS in Wales.

:54:19.:54:23.

So the evidence is there, we can invest in mental health, my

:54:24.:54:27.

grandmother is in an NHS hospital even as we speak. We need to see

:54:28.:54:34.

whether money is coming from. We do face a mental health crisis in this

:54:35.:54:37.

country one in four bus will face a crisis within their own lifetime, we

:54:38.:54:43.

can either change our language and approach, and attitudes, so that

:54:44.:54:45.

young people don't suffer in silence and they of talking about it and

:54:46.:54:49.

some sadly even take their own lives as a result. -- and fear. Secondly,

:54:50.:54:58.

absolutely, invest in good quality, immediate, talking therapies and

:54:59.:55:00.

support for those going through a crisis. If you're in the midst of a

:55:01.:55:05.

crisis ended go to your GP and say, I'm going through a mental health

:55:06.:55:10.

crisis, a good GP would do something to you immediately, less effective

:55:11.:55:15.

one would put you on a waiting list, see someone in a month or six weeks.

:55:16.:55:21.

It's got to be there and available and immediate. But as a society,

:55:22.:55:25.

recognise where levels of stress come from, poverty, bad wages, bad

:55:26.:55:26.

housing. You have now heard both men speak

:55:27.:55:41.

for the last couple of hours. Our audience here of Labour supporters,

:55:42.:55:44.

members, voters, who say they may vote Labour in future, thank you for

:55:45.:55:50.

your contributions and Europe respect. We have divided you up,

:55:51.:55:57.

this is the section of people who wanted to come along to see if they

:55:58.:56:00.

could make up their mind. If you think you have reached a conclusion

:56:01.:56:03.

and you are now going to support either Owen Smith or the incumbent,

:56:04.:56:07.

Jeremy Corbyn, could ask you to walk to the relevant section right now. I

:56:08.:56:13.

will describe this for listeners on the radio.

:56:14.:56:30.

Most people in the undecided section... Most people in the and

:56:31.:56:39.

decided section have moved and swelled the ranks of the Jeremy

:56:40.:56:44.

Corbyn supporters. Let's hear why. I have always voted Tory until the

:56:45.:56:49.

last election and I think the policies about child mental issues

:56:50.:56:56.

is massive for myself. I just want to hear what people have moved over

:56:57.:57:01.

here. At the beginning Owen Smith was concerned about his children's

:57:02.:57:07.

GCSE results and he has got an amazing CV but Jeremy Corbyn is

:57:08.:57:09.

concerned about campaigning for everybody in the community. Even

:57:10.:57:18.

though I agree with Owen Smith... About Brexit. I have been really

:57:19.:57:27.

impressed by both candidates in this debate. Both have a lot to offer.

:57:28.:57:32.

It's one thing about leading a movement and a campaign and leading

:57:33.:57:35.

a party or an nation, think they are different issues and I respect

:57:36.:57:39.

Jeremy Corbyn but think my heart is with Owen Smith.

:57:40.:57:45.

Ten seconds, why haven't you made up your mind on what will persuade you?

:57:46.:57:52.

I am still not convinced, I started off unconvinced, both genuine post,

:57:53.:57:56.

I would be happy spend the evening with you in the pub, but I am now

:57:57.:58:00.

pretty much decided that I'm going to from voting. Let's talk further

:58:01.:58:08.

on the subject! Thank you so much, ladies and gentlemen, thank you Owen

:58:09.:58:10.

Smith and thank you, Jeremy Corbyn. The results are announced on

:58:11.:58:20.

September 24. A few weeks to go. Turning into another beautiful day

:58:21.:58:44.

across most parts of the country

:58:45.:58:46.

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