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This morning - who do you want to be the next leader of the Labour party? | :00:11. | :00:18. | |
The two men who're battling it out for the top job are here with us | :00:19. | :00:22. | |
It's not even a year since Jeremy Corbyn | :00:23. | :00:36. | |
was elected leader of the Labour party - but after he lost | :00:37. | :00:40. | |
the confidence of most of his MPs - he's now fighting to stay | :00:41. | :00:43. | |
His challenger, a man called Owen Smith, | :00:44. | :01:12. | |
not known by that many outside Westminster and his Welsh | :01:13. | :01:16. | |
constituency; he joined the labour party at the age of 16 and has been | :01:17. | :01:19. | |
As you can see we're joined by an audience of 100 people who're | :01:20. | :01:37. | |
here to talk direct to the two wannabe prime ministers | :01:38. | :01:40. | |
and to tell us what they think of the current state | :01:41. | :01:43. | |
Hello, I'm Nazia, a mental health advocate and Labour voter. | :01:44. | :01:49. | |
I think the party is an utter shambles at the moment. | :01:50. | :01:53. | |
He exudes honesty and integrity, and despite his heavy rebranding, Owen | :01:54. | :02:11. | |
Smith doesn't. Hi, I'm Maria, a charity | :02:12. | :02:13. | |
worker and labour member. He's a much better communicator | :02:14. | :02:16. | |
and the party is becoming Hello, I'm Collins | :02:17. | :02:20. | |
a science teacher. For the first time I'm | :02:21. | :02:26. | |
considering voting for the Conservatives, such | :02:27. | :02:29. | |
is my disillusionment with both men We will definitely explore that | :02:30. | :02:31. | |
further in the next couple of hours. And as always really | :02:32. | :02:39. | |
keen to hear from you. Much to come from Mr | :02:40. | :02:47. | |
Corbyn and Mr Smith - as well as from you - | :02:48. | :03:17. | |
tell us what you think about the current state | :03:18. | :03:20. | |
of the Labour party, whether you think Labour has become, | :03:21. | :03:22. | |
as some have suggested, Tell us who you'd think | :03:23. | :03:24. | |
would make the best leader Use the hashtag VictoriaLIVE | :03:25. | :03:28. | |
and if you text, you will be charged | :03:29. | :03:35. | |
at the standard network rate. Before we hear our audience | :03:36. | :03:40. | |
and the two contenders in conversation, let's get | :03:41. | :03:42. | |
the latest on the And another sensational | :03:43. | :03:44. | |
night in the velodrome. Good morning, Victoria. Yeah, an | :03:45. | :03:54. | |
amazing night. The size of their | :03:55. | :03:57. | |
achievement cannot be underestimated, in fact, | :03:58. | :03:59. | |
GB Cycling deserves Every single track cyclist that went | :04:00. | :04:00. | |
to Rio will bring back a medal. Yesterday, Becky James | :04:01. | :04:06. | |
and Katy Marchant took silver and bronze in the Women's sprint | :04:07. | :04:09. | |
in the Velodrome too, with Golds from Jason Kenny | :04:10. | :04:11. | |
and Laura Trott leading of Six Olympic Gold Medals held now, | :04:12. | :04:19. | |
by he and Sir Chris Hoy. The 28-year old took the Keirin | :04:20. | :04:27. | |
title in dramatic fashion after the race was restarted on two | :04:28. | :04:30. | |
occasions because of infringements. It's his 7th medal in all at his | :04:31. | :04:32. | |
third Olympic Games. I was there in Beijing, obviously, | :04:33. | :04:44. | |
when Chris won his three, and I knew at the time | :04:45. | :04:47. | |
it was special. And I think as years have gone by, | :04:48. | :04:49. | |
I appreciate it even more, how special those Olympics were, | :04:50. | :04:52. | |
and how amazing Chris was then. So to come here and do | :04:53. | :04:55. | |
the same is amazing. Ten gold medals between | :04:56. | :04:57. | |
you, that's not bad? There was an incredible | :04:58. | :05:01. | |
achievement for Kenny's fiance, She became the first British Woman | :05:02. | :05:04. | |
to win Four Olympic Gold Medals as she reatined the Omnium title | :05:05. | :05:08. | |
she won at London She took the multiple | :05:09. | :05:10. | |
race event by just 24 points to move clear of equestrian | :05:11. | :05:16. | |
rider Charlotte Dujardin, who won her third gold | :05:17. | :05:21. | |
at the weekend in Rio. And Trott was very emotional | :05:22. | :05:24. | |
after securing gold with an exemplary performance | :05:25. | :05:25. | |
in the hundred lap And it was a very emotional | :05:26. | :05:27. | |
night for the couple. Trott greeted Kenny off | :05:28. | :05:32. | |
the bike following his win, the pair now have 10 Gold | :05:33. | :05:34. | |
medals between them. She tweeted afterwards | :05:35. | :05:41. | |
saying 'our kids have to get some I think most people are hoping that | :05:42. | :05:43. | |
comes after some more gold medals But good luck to the pair, | :05:44. | :05:51. | |
they'll marry next month. They don't have to hold off until | :05:52. | :06:10. | |
Tokyo! But we all want the medals, don't we? How proud Ayew of Team GB? | :06:11. | :06:18. | |
They have smashed the medals target with five days to go, it is | :06:19. | :06:20. | |
fantastic. Not just in the cycling where there | :06:21. | :06:31. | |
were medals for Great Britain, Yes, virtually every morning we talk | :06:32. | :06:38. | |
about medals for Team GB. performance from diver | :06:39. | :06:49. | |
Jack Laugher. He won a silver | :06:50. | :06:51. | |
in the men's individual 3 metres springboard final, | :06:52. | :06:53. | |
six days after he claimed a synchronised gold alongside | :06:54. | :06:55. | |
partner Chris Mears. That was Team GB's 50th | :06:56. | :06:58. | |
medal of the Games. Theres's a special | :06:59. | :07:02. | |
mention for Amy Tinckler, the 16 year old, and | :07:03. | :07:04. | |
the youngest member of Team GB became the second woman | :07:05. | :07:06. | |
to win an individual gymnastics She wins a medal a week before | :07:07. | :07:12. | |
she gets her GCSE results. Fellow gymnast Nile Wilson took | :07:13. | :07:21. | |
bronze on the high bars. All our medallists | :07:22. | :07:26. | |
deserve a mention today, sailor Giles Scott won gold | :07:27. | :07:28. | |
in the Finn class, and there was a boxing | :07:29. | :07:31. | |
bronze for Joshua Buatsi. And there are even more medals | :07:32. | :07:38. | |
guaranteed for Team GB? Yes there are. We will mention | :07:39. | :07:52. | |
Nicola Adams in a moment. Plenty to come in the sailing. | :07:53. | :07:55. | |
GB are currently second in the medals table with 19 Golds, | :07:56. | :07:58. | |
two ahead of China and with 50 medals in all. | :07:59. | :08:00. | |
Great Britain's Hannah Mills and Saskia Clark will win Olympic | :08:01. | :08:03. | |
gold in the women's 470 sailing as long as they finish | :08:04. | :08:05. | |
Nicola Adams too, she was back in action | :08:06. | :08:10. | |
and became the first British boxer to win two | :08:11. | :08:12. | |
Olympic medals in 56 years when advanced to the | :08:13. | :08:14. | |
semi-finals of the women's flyweight division. | :08:15. | :08:24. | |
It means she's guaranteed at least bronze as both losing semi | :08:25. | :08:26. | |
So there is plenty for Team GB fans still to look | :08:27. | :08:31. | |
So that's all the latest from the Olympics; now the rest | :08:32. | :08:42. | |
of the days headlines with Annita McVeigh. | :08:43. | :08:44. | |
Banks and accountancy firms that help their clients to unlawfully | :08:45. | :08:48. | |
avoid tax could face huge fines under new proposals | :08:49. | :08:51. | |
Ministers have published plans which would give courts | :08:52. | :08:55. | |
the power to impose fines equivalent to the total amount of tax avoided. | :08:56. | :09:01. | |
The US Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump has spoken | :09:02. | :09:03. | |
out in support of the police after a series of fatal | :09:04. | :09:06. | |
He's said the recent shooting of a black man by police | :09:07. | :09:10. | |
And Mr Trump accused his Democratic opponent, Hillary Clinton, | :09:11. | :09:18. | |
of being responsible for the unrest in the city, where he's been | :09:19. | :09:21. | |
School leavers are being urged to get themselves vaccinated | :09:22. | :09:25. | |
against a potentially deadly strain of meningitis. | :09:26. | :09:27. | |
Public Health England and officials in Wales say | :09:28. | :09:29. | |
the jab will help protect against Meningitis W, | :09:30. | :09:31. | |
after the number of cases rose from 22 in 2009 to over | :09:32. | :09:34. | |
Experts say new students are particularly at risk | :09:35. | :09:43. | |
as they meet new people carrying unfamiliar bacteria.s | :09:44. | :09:46. | |
as they meet new people carrying unfamiliar bacteria. | :09:47. | :09:48. | |
The chief suspects in the murder of a woman from Bradford will appear | :09:49. | :09:51. | |
Samia Shahid, a 28-year-old beautician, | :09:52. | :09:56. | |
died last month in what is believed to have been a so-called | :09:57. | :09:59. | |
Her former husband and her father are currently being held in custody. | :10:00. | :10:17. | |
Hello and welcome to our programme on the future of Labour - | :10:18. | :10:20. | |
we're live in Nottingham this morning. | :10:21. | :10:29. | |
So, which of these men do you want to lead the Labour party | :10:30. | :10:32. | |
Maybe it's neither but only these two are standing in this | :10:33. | :10:42. | |
Jeremy Corbyn who defied the odds to win a labour leadership | :10:43. | :10:46. | |
contest a year ago - but has since been dogged with | :10:47. | :10:52. | |
Or Owen Smith a relatively new Labour MP - | :10:53. | :10:58. | |
Even he admits he's not a household name | :10:59. | :11:02. | |
But will that change come September 24th when the new | :11:03. | :11:06. | |
In a sentence gentlemen,how confident you are that | :11:07. | :11:09. | |
I feel very optimistic about it. We've received the support of over | :11:10. | :11:18. | |
280 constituency Labour parties and we are touring the whole country, | :11:19. | :11:22. | |
doing rallies and meetings in areas where there is Labour support but | :11:23. | :11:27. | |
also Conservative held areas to take the campaign to the Tories of the | :11:28. | :11:31. | |
kind of Britain we want to where there is decent housing, good | :11:32. | :11:35. | |
education opportunities and a fully functioning, free NHS. APPLAUSE | :11:36. | :11:46. | |
How confident can you be, Mr Smith, of winning, particularly now those | :11:47. | :11:53. | |
constituency Labour Party is, almost 300, going for Jeremy Corbyn? A lot | :11:54. | :11:58. | |
of those votes have been narrow and I'm confident I'm persuading people | :11:59. | :12:02. | |
all over the country. I was in Oxford last night and I will be all | :12:03. | :12:05. | |
over the country persuading people that we need to get ready for | :12:06. | :12:09. | |
government and at the moment I think that needs we need to change the | :12:10. | :12:15. | |
leader of the party, a bit more credible. Still radical and sticking | :12:16. | :12:19. | |
to our roots and beliefs but perhaps speaking a bit more directly to the | :12:20. | :12:27. | |
country. Let me tell you about our audience. | :12:28. | :12:30. | |
voters is made up entirely of people who're either Labour members' Labour | :12:31. | :12:38. | |
supporters or people who say they might vote Labour in a future | :12:39. | :12:41. | |
general election depending on who the next leader is. | :12:42. | :12:43. | |
A third of our audience - those sitting here - | :12:44. | :12:45. | |
already know they want to support Jeremy Corbyn. | :12:46. | :12:51. | |
This third, sitting here in the middle, | :12:52. | :12:53. | |
Some have said they are here to hear both contenders and they may reach a | :12:54. | :13:07. | |
conclusion by 11am. They don't yet know. They want to hear the two men | :13:08. | :13:11. | |
in their own words, effectively. And this third sitting over | :13:12. | :13:13. | |
here support Owen Smith. So tell us why you're supporting | :13:14. | :13:25. | |
who you're supporting? Introduce yourself. And Peter Gates, | :13:26. | :13:37. | |
I work in education in Nottingham. I support Jeremy because of his | :13:38. | :13:40. | |
honesty, integrity and compassion. I've been to a number of meetings | :13:41. | :13:44. | |
Jeremy has spoken at, and that each he has been an inspiration. Two | :13:45. | :13:48. | |
people in a cross-section of the country. He's been an MP for over 30 | :13:49. | :13:53. | |
years and during that time he's been consistently supporting progressive | :13:54. | :13:57. | |
causes, even though that may have been difficult for him sometimes | :13:58. | :13:59. | |
with colleagues in the Parliamentary Labour Party. At the end of it I | :14:00. | :14:04. | |
think Jeremy is a thoroughly decent bloke and he doesn't deserve to be | :14:05. | :14:07. | |
treated in the way that he has so far by members of Parliament. We | :14:08. | :14:17. | |
will definitely come back to your point about the way some members of | :14:18. | :14:20. | |
Parliament have treated their own leader. And Steve, a solicitor, a | :14:21. | :14:26. | |
long-standing member of the Labour Party and I'm voting for Owen Smith. | :14:27. | :14:31. | |
Let us remember our history. Labour exists to get things done. That is | :14:32. | :14:37. | |
the most important thing. If we don't get power we get nothing done. | :14:38. | :14:41. | |
It's not a question of being left or right or anything. Let us remember | :14:42. | :14:49. | |
the health service, let us remember what others have done. Labour has | :14:50. | :14:53. | |
been a broad church in the past and what Harold Wilson said in the 60s, | :14:54. | :14:58. | |
Labour is a broad church. We are in danger of becoming a narrow church. | :14:59. | :15:02. | |
If we become a narrow church we will not win. Finally, Europe. I am | :15:03. | :15:09. | |
passionately pro-Europe, I was extremely disappointed with you, | :15:10. | :15:14. | |
Jeremy, if I can address you directly, you did not campaign hard | :15:15. | :15:18. | |
enough, you did not go to the north-east. Why, I don't know. Just | :15:19. | :15:25. | |
let me speak and you can talk shortly, OK? Can I move the | :15:26. | :15:34. | |
conversation on? Yes, fine. But my general point is there. And I do not | :15:35. | :15:39. | |
think we should lie down and accept Brexit, we should fight for our | :15:40. | :15:43. | |
place in Europe. It is too important. | :15:44. | :15:49. | |
I was under the understanding that Labour was the party had welcomed | :15:50. | :16:01. | |
everyone, that clearly is not the case at the minute. I feel we are | :16:02. | :16:06. | |
pigeonholed into a certain member of society, our reasons are questioned | :16:07. | :16:10. | |
as to why we have joined the party, I feel I'm told you I should | :16:11. | :16:16. | |
support, why I should support them, I am not as important... I spend a | :16:17. | :16:21. | |
lot of time on twitter, from reading the media as well, the names have | :16:22. | :16:27. | |
been called, I am mum on the Trinity leave, I'm not a cult member, I feel | :16:28. | :16:33. | |
strongly about passion and getting involved in politics and now I feel | :16:34. | :16:36. | |
I may have made a massive mistake because I'm not welcome, I am not | :16:37. | :16:40. | |
important and I want to play a part in the future because my membership | :16:41. | :16:45. | |
and the leaves are questioned, why worth of paying ?25 for a vote, I | :16:46. | :16:49. | |
wonder why people should join the Labour Party, was that the kind of | :16:50. | :16:55. | |
thing we do? As I said, I'm on maternity leave, things are tight, | :16:56. | :17:00. | |
so it was a choice of doing something, I'm not saying my kids | :17:01. | :17:04. | |
didn't get fed but it makes a lot of difference to someone and why should | :17:05. | :17:08. | |
I have to pay to show that I want to be here and I want to play our part | :17:09. | :17:12. | |
and fun to be the future of the Labour Party? I would love to sit | :17:13. | :17:17. | |
where you guys are, how can I do that when I'm told mainly my place | :17:18. | :17:24. | |
in the party isn't secure? Future leader perhaps! Good morning. My | :17:25. | :17:33. | |
name is Karen, I am a planning consultant with a small business and | :17:34. | :17:37. | |
a long-standing Labour member. I am unconvinced that either of you are | :17:38. | :17:41. | |
actually suitable to lead this party. Why do you say that? I think | :17:42. | :17:48. | |
there has been a lot of squabbling. At the end of the day, it is they | :17:49. | :17:55. | |
lost sight that you are elected members, here to represent the | :17:56. | :17:59. | |
electorate and the community, and the whole thing seems to have | :18:00. | :18:03. | |
degenerated down to a playground type squabble. I am yet to be | :18:04. | :18:08. | |
convinced and I'm here today because I would hope that one or both of you | :18:09. | :18:12. | |
will convince me that you are suitable and appropriate and capable | :18:13. | :18:18. | |
of leading this party and taking on the Conservatives in the next | :18:19. | :18:19. | |
election. OK, let's hear a little bit | :18:20. | :18:23. | |
about each of the candidates... They've both been briefed | :18:24. | :18:25. | |
to tell us in one This is the nonpolitical slot, is | :18:26. | :18:43. | |
it? I have been MP for Islington for a long time, since the 93, I live in | :18:44. | :18:48. | |
the area, I love the community and I get a lot from meeting people, I'm | :18:49. | :18:53. | |
involved in local community events and charities and so forth and learn | :18:54. | :18:57. | |
a lot from talking to people, because everybody you meet know | :18:58. | :19:00. | |
something you don't know. It's important in life to have a balance | :19:01. | :19:05. | |
in what you do and don't become obsessive in your job. So I do a lot | :19:06. | :19:10. | |
of other things, I run, I have an allotment, I read widely, I make | :19:11. | :19:14. | |
things at home and I enjoy cycling very much and I spend as much time | :19:15. | :19:20. | |
as I can on my bike because it's a way of getting great exercise, it's | :19:21. | :19:25. | |
the most perfect form of technology... But you know Jason | :19:26. | :19:31. | |
Kenny! Absolutely not but I had the pleasure of being interviewed by | :19:32. | :19:34. | |
Bradley Wiggins for Radio 4 last Christmas and he thought my bike was | :19:35. | :19:39. | |
a bit passe... He was right, but he didn't offer me a carbon fibre | :19:40. | :19:45. | |
frame, which would have been nice! In life, you have to keep a balance, | :19:46. | :19:50. | |
so understanding people, understanding our environment and | :19:51. | :19:54. | |
society but above all being prepared to read widely, think differently. | :19:55. | :20:01. | |
What book are you reading? I'm reading a novel written by a | :20:02. | :20:04. | |
Bangladeshi writer who became a graduate at Harvard and then went | :20:05. | :20:08. | |
back to Bangladesh and worked hard defending people who were employed | :20:09. | :20:13. | |
as ship breakers on the beach near Chittagong, it has become quite | :20:14. | :20:17. | |
violent in the way some of those workers have been treated and the | :20:18. | :20:20. | |
life they lead and the corruption that goes on, I haven't got to the | :20:21. | :20:24. | |
end. So far I doesn't look promising. Owen Smith. I'm reading a | :20:25. | :20:34. | |
book called Purity, which is in no way ironic or about the Labour | :20:35. | :20:40. | |
Party. I have been an MP for 60s, I was a BBC journalist at the | :20:41. | :20:43. | |
beginning of my career and then worked for the last Labour | :20:44. | :20:46. | |
government on the peace process in Northern Ireland for three years and | :20:47. | :20:54. | |
then I worked for two big companies, I am wracked with nerves today, not | :20:55. | :20:58. | |
because of appearing on this programme, because I'm looking | :20:59. | :21:02. | |
forward to this but because the Smith household is expecting GCSE | :21:03. | :21:06. | |
results next week and A-level results tomorrow, I'm looking | :21:07. | :21:10. | |
forward to going home from here to see my son Jack who I haven't seen | :21:11. | :21:13. | |
for a couple of weeks, to be with him tomorrow when he gets his | :21:14. | :21:19. | |
results. I also have an allotment, like Jeremy, we had to get rid of | :21:20. | :21:22. | |
hours because my wife started work as a schoolteacher, but I'm just | :21:23. | :21:32. | |
stunned as he is of growing beans. You could share his allotment, he | :21:33. | :21:36. | |
said! There is an image to conjure up. Digging for Britain! Debating | :21:37. | :21:47. | |
the variety of potatoes. Some comments from you already. Rob says, | :21:48. | :21:53. | |
I'm a Labour member but I am concerned about the ability of | :21:54. | :21:57. | |
Jeremy Corbyn to be Prime Minister. Roz says, should the Labour Party | :21:58. | :22:00. | |
suspended and investigate any member that describes any others as storm | :22:01. | :22:02. | |
troopers stop? I see Corbin and Smith as dinosaurs, | :22:03. | :22:34. | |
the world has moved on. I have been impressed by Theresa May and if she | :22:35. | :22:39. | |
lives up to her word, she will get my vote, how does that make you | :22:40. | :22:45. | |
feel? Absolutely terrible. We know there were potentially 2 million | :22:46. | :22:48. | |
Labour voters who voted Labour at the last election who are | :22:49. | :22:52. | |
contemplating voting Tory right now because we are at such a low ebb. | :22:53. | :22:57. | |
Our printer should think about the rail industry, poor example, we | :22:58. | :23:00. | |
built it, we have invested in it, the train operators are making huge | :23:01. | :23:05. | |
profits out of it, shouldn't they get the public instead? Since Labour | :23:06. | :23:16. | |
lost the general election in 2015 and Jeremy Corbyn was elected | :23:17. | :23:20. | |
leader, the party has been riddled with infighting and mudslinging. | :23:21. | :23:31. | |
The Conservatives are the largest party. This is not the speech I | :23:32. | :23:40. | |
wanted to give today. Now it's time for someone else to take forward the | :23:41. | :23:41. | |
leadership of this party. 251,000... We don't have to be | :23:42. | :23:58. | |
unequal. It doesn't have to be unfair. Poverty isn't inevitable. | :23:59. | :24:07. | |
Things can, and they will, change. Have you changed your position on | :24:08. | :24:11. | |
air strikes? He is a good and decent man but not a leader. You are a Nazi | :24:12. | :24:22. | |
apologist, rewriting history! I believe we have to boat to remain to | :24:23. | :24:27. | |
defend investment, jobs and workers' rights. -- vote to remain. For these | :24:28. | :24:35. | |
qualities, I don't believe that leader is Jeremy. I don't think he | :24:36. | :24:40. | |
is in a position to provide leadership. I think I have served in | :24:41. | :24:45. | |
the best way I can and today I have to go. I think he is likely to | :24:46. | :24:49. | |
continue as leader of the Labour Party, he has the support of the | :24:50. | :25:01. | |
membership. This party is teetering on the brink of extinction. It would | :25:02. | :25:09. | |
be a good thing if Labour MPs got behind their leader. 172 voted no | :25:10. | :25:19. | |
confidence in your leadership. And why on this camera? We have got to | :25:20. | :25:24. | |
stop this now. -- am I on this camera? | :25:25. | :25:43. | |
It really is a remarkable state of affairs. | :25:44. | :25:50. | |
That music was incredibly dramatic! We will hear from you first. Good | :25:51. | :26:00. | |
morning gentlemen, thank you becoming to Nottingham. My name is | :26:01. | :26:05. | |
Dale and I live and work in this city forced my question is, there is | :26:06. | :26:12. | |
an undeniable riffs, a chasm, that exist at the moment between the PLP | :26:13. | :26:19. | |
and the core membership. Whichever of the unity gentlemen win the | :26:20. | :26:22. | |
contest, you must fundamentally have the ability to heal this rift and | :26:23. | :26:28. | |
unite the party. What is your question? If Mr Corbyn and Mr Smith | :26:29. | :26:36. | |
could allude to how they are going to heal the rift. How do you unite | :26:37. | :26:42. | |
the membership and your own Labour MPs if you win? The first thing to | :26:43. | :26:48. | |
say in answer to that question, and the new member spoke earlier on, my | :26:49. | :26:51. | |
experience is that although the members that I meet, the vast | :26:52. | :26:56. | |
majority, they all joined the same reason I did, they all believe in | :26:57. | :27:01. | |
when they to make Britain a fairer place, they want to improve their | :27:02. | :27:06. | |
communities, they are all wanting the Labour Party to be a catalyst | :27:07. | :27:09. | |
for change. We have got to start being honest that there is more that | :27:10. | :27:15. | |
unites us than divides us. That is a slogan. If you are a leader, you | :27:16. | :27:21. | |
have to make the part of how you address the party. I don't think | :27:22. | :27:25. | |
there is a chasm between the PLP and the membership, I think both the PLP | :27:26. | :27:30. | |
and the membership baldly want the same thing. There is laughter over | :27:31. | :27:34. | |
there, I think there has been a force narrative created that there | :27:35. | :27:39. | |
was a great chasm. What there was is a chasm between the large proportion | :27:40. | :27:45. | |
of the PLP in Jeremy, and half the mothership, and the reasons that is | :27:46. | :27:49. | |
we have been closer to Jeremy, we are the people who worked with him. | :27:50. | :27:53. | |
If you work in a company or a council and look every at the way in | :27:54. | :27:59. | |
which the leader of that body leads your group... If they don't do good | :28:00. | :28:03. | |
job, it is there enough speed to say, we don't want that leadership. | :28:04. | :28:15. | |
-- fair enough to say. There were some derisive laughter when Mr Smith | :28:16. | :28:19. | |
said there wasn't this chasm between Labour and MPs, tell me why. The | :28:20. | :28:24. | |
laughter is around the democracy, which brings me to the point I | :28:25. | :28:34. | |
wanted to make. Before you ask a question I would like Mr Corbyn to | :28:35. | :28:37. | |
answer the first question, how did you unite members and Labour MPs. A | :28:38. | :28:44. | |
year ago I was elected leader of the party, might question was, we have | :28:45. | :28:50. | |
changed economic message to one which was opposed to austerity and | :28:51. | :28:55. | |
in favour of redistribution. I appointed a Shadow Cabinet that | :28:56. | :28:58. | |
included people who absolutely opposed Mike election as leader, and | :28:59. | :29:04. | |
I wanted to create a broad-based Shadow Cabinet and team and I will | :29:05. | :29:06. | |
do exactly the same again if re-elected in September because I do | :29:07. | :29:11. | |
want the PLP... It didn't work last time away with it at work this time? | :29:12. | :29:18. | |
I would ask those Labour MPs to remember they had been elected like | :29:19. | :29:22. | |
I have and like Irene has, as Labour MPs, we have a huge responsibility | :29:23. | :29:26. | |
to resent our party and the people who elected us, so we had to work | :29:27. | :29:32. | |
together on the issues of austerity, education, health, I will reach out | :29:33. | :29:35. | |
to them and invite them to come on board and work together to achieve | :29:36. | :29:45. | |
that. -- represent our party. You have already done that the number of | :29:46. | :29:49. | |
occasions and continues to fail. I was faced with a series of organised | :29:50. | :29:54. | |
and orchestrated resignations over a period of days. I have since | :29:55. | :30:02. | |
appointed other people to be Shadow Cabinet who have worked extremely | :30:03. | :30:08. | |
hard, Angela Rayner for example as Shadow Education Secretary, and if | :30:09. | :30:10. | |
elected again, I will try and reach out to all members of the PLP and | :30:11. | :30:16. | |
invite them to get on board because there are an awful lot of issues we | :30:17. | :30:20. | |
can agree on and we can take the fight to the Tories and that is what | :30:21. | :30:23. | |
Labour supporters and members and millions of voters want us to do. | :30:24. | :30:30. | |
Why the groans when Mr Corbyn talked about orchestrated and organised | :30:31. | :30:38. | |
resignations from his Cabinet? There have been a lot of reports from MPs | :30:39. | :30:43. | |
who actually went against you and were probably centre leaning in the | :30:44. | :30:47. | |
middle of the party who you did not work with. Like the MP who had | :30:48. | :30:51. | |
cancer recently who was fired then reinstated or without her knowledge. | :30:52. | :30:56. | |
And Jess Phillips recently did a thing where she came to you with | :30:57. | :31:00. | |
reports of sexual harassment and abuse and your office didn't do | :31:01. | :31:06. | |
anything. It seems to me there was one interview when you were being | :31:07. | :31:11. | |
followed. Listen, I have dealt with, very strongly, and very robustly, | :31:12. | :31:17. | |
any complaints about abuse on social media, personal abuse or abuse of | :31:18. | :31:22. | |
anybody else, it has no place in any political party. I proposed and it | :31:23. | :31:26. | |
was agreed unanimously a statement to the national executive of the | :31:27. | :31:30. | |
party on behaviour and racism in the party, that is the position we have, | :31:31. | :31:33. | |
it is not acceptable and tolerated by me or anybody else. We have an | :31:34. | :31:39. | |
institutional enquiry into this and rule changes will follow. Labour | :31:40. | :31:42. | |
will be the first political party to have a clear statement of antiracism | :31:43. | :31:48. | |
within its party. What kind of rule changes with yellow rule changes to | :31:49. | :31:52. | |
provide a due process of representation, adjudication and | :31:53. | :31:56. | |
appeal. What does that mean? It means that anyone that is accused of | :31:57. | :32:02. | |
making a wrong remark, a racist remark, will have the right to put | :32:03. | :32:05. | |
their case, a right to representation, and of course will | :32:06. | :32:08. | |
be suspended in the meantime while the investigation goes on. It will | :32:09. | :32:13. | |
not be done just by promote group of people. Why will that stop abuse? It | :32:14. | :32:18. | |
won't necessarily stop abuse but what it will do is make sure there | :32:19. | :32:24. | |
is a clear line of decision-making, and a clear line of culture saying, | :32:25. | :32:28. | |
we do not accept any of this in any shape or form within the party from | :32:29. | :32:33. | |
whoever it comes. For example, the Jess Phillips think, when women in | :32:34. | :32:41. | |
particular come to you with stories of abuse, the way you respond | :32:42. | :32:45. | |
saying, I've been abused, too. But it's different. I did not say that. | :32:46. | :32:51. | |
It seems like you don't understand. I have made it absolutely clear that | :32:52. | :32:55. | |
any kind of abuse is totally unacceptable in any form. And that | :32:56. | :33:01. | |
is the position of the party. But then why is it still happening? It | :33:02. | :33:05. | |
is the position of all of us and I should imagine it is your position | :33:06. | :33:09. | |
as well. You said to the Observer the best way to deal with abuse was | :33:10. | :33:14. | |
ignorant. No, I said personal abuse to me, I am not willing to respond | :33:15. | :33:20. | |
to it. So far as anybody else is concerned, I think they should | :33:21. | :33:23. | |
report it and have it investigated and it should be closed down. Owen | :33:24. | :33:29. | |
Smith, in an interview on our programming a few weeks ago you said | :33:30. | :33:32. | |
to me you thought Jeremy Corbyn encouraged that kind of abuse. Well, | :33:33. | :33:38. | |
I don't remember saying that. I think I'm very clear about it, | :33:39. | :33:41. | |
Jeremy hasn't stamped down hard enough on it. Quite often when you | :33:42. | :33:47. | |
ask Jeremy he says, you're abuse, I'm abused, and somehow that's OK. I | :33:48. | :33:55. | |
did not say that. It was reported in the Observer. You do quite often | :33:56. | :33:59. | |
respond by saying we are all abused and we should ignore it. I think the | :34:00. | :34:05. | |
thing that people feel in the party is that you haven't stamped down on | :34:06. | :34:08. | |
it hard enough. What would you do differently? In some of the | :34:09. | :34:13. | |
instances where we had anti-Semitic abuse within the Labour Party, we | :34:14. | :34:19. | |
should kick those people out of the party. There isn't any place for it. | :34:20. | :34:25. | |
There have been occasions when Jeremy has just not seemed bothered | :34:26. | :34:29. | |
enough by it. So you'd go straight Fritz Balsam rather than any enquiry | :34:30. | :34:34. | |
-- you'd go straight for expiry rather than an enquiry? Lots of the | :34:35. | :34:41. | |
Jewish Labour MP colleagues feel that Jeremy wasn't quick enough to | :34:42. | :34:46. | |
condemn anti-Semitic abuse. We are the Labour Party and we are having a | :34:47. | :34:50. | |
debate on national television about anti-Semitism and misogyny within | :34:51. | :34:53. | |
the Labour Party. That should make us all deeply ashamed, in my view. | :34:54. | :35:00. | |
We should respond much stronger than saying abuse is bad, I'm going to | :35:01. | :35:05. | |
ignore it. You know there have been 19 people suspended, most of those | :35:06. | :35:09. | |
cases predate my leadership, they are under investigation, a decision | :35:10. | :35:13. | |
will be made on them. You know that as well as I do. We have put forward | :35:14. | :35:18. | |
a very clear policy on this. That's something you and I completely agree | :35:19. | :35:23. | |
on. Can we agree we want this party to be one that is inclusive, open, | :35:24. | :35:27. | |
welcoming, that does not tolerate any kind of foul language, racism in | :35:28. | :35:31. | |
any form whatsoever, I'm sure we agree. Maybe we should just be clear | :35:32. | :35:39. | |
about this. There are shades of hard left opinion in Britain that have | :35:40. | :35:44. | |
drifted into anti-Semitic abuse because of their concerns about | :35:45. | :35:49. | |
Israel. And that is at the heart of concerns of many in the party. This | :35:50. | :35:55. | |
is absolutely true. Nobody is going to deny that on the hard left of | :35:56. | :35:58. | |
politics in this country and elsewhere across the West there has | :35:59. | :36:02. | |
been anti-Semitism, it's absolutely fact that that has been the case. | :36:03. | :36:06. | |
The point people feel is that we need to make sure. On the hard right | :36:07. | :36:10. | |
and on the hard left there has been that. People feel at very best we | :36:11. | :36:15. | |
have been insensitive to those concerns. And we should be the party | :36:16. | :36:23. | |
that speaks the decency and tolerance. For us to be mired in a | :36:24. | :36:26. | |
debate about anti-Semitism is truly shaming of us all. Hello. And | :36:27. | :36:35. | |
Jessica from Derby, and I've been a member of the Labour Party for three | :36:36. | :36:41. | |
years now. And recently I've been considering going to the Labour | :36:42. | :36:47. | |
Party conference in September. And I would much rather, I would feel more | :36:48. | :36:51. | |
comfortable going to a Conservative conference saying I'm a Labour | :36:52. | :36:54. | |
supporter than going to the Labour Party conference saying I'm an Owen | :36:55. | :36:59. | |
Smith supporter. Wow, seriously? Seriously. Personally I haven't had | :37:00. | :37:04. | |
much abuse but that's because my presence online is very small. But I | :37:05. | :37:10. | |
went to the youth Labour Party conference and there were some | :37:11. | :37:13. | |
things that went on there that really went acceptable. And I'll | :37:14. | :37:18. | |
admit it was on both sides. But I definitely felt just because I | :37:19. | :37:22. | |
didn't support Jeremy or I wasn't a massive supporter of Jeremy at the | :37:23. | :37:28. | |
time, that I was somehow different to other people, and that there was | :37:29. | :37:35. | |
just so much going on at all these conferences. Just sometimes I don't | :37:36. | :37:38. | |
feel comfortable going to large groups of Labour members. You should | :37:39. | :37:45. | |
feel comfortable at any Labour Party meeting or conference whatever your | :37:46. | :37:49. | |
point of view, absolutely. I was at the Labour youth conference for the | :37:50. | :37:52. | |
last day, I spoke to a lot of members. Clearly there had been an | :37:53. | :37:57. | |
awful lot of arguments the previous day, some of which I think had been | :37:58. | :38:01. | |
deeply unpleasant. Indeed we asked for a report on the national | :38:02. | :38:04. | |
executive and looked at the way in which the Labour youth conference is | :38:05. | :38:08. | |
run, to make sure that it is more open, more inclusive, and absolutely | :38:09. | :38:12. | |
tolerant of differences and differences of opinion. And that is | :38:13. | :38:17. | |
the Labour way of doing things. Can I ask for an example of what you | :38:18. | :38:20. | |
said was unacceptable, bearing in mind this is the school holidays, | :38:21. | :38:25. | |
morning television, an example of something that went on that you | :38:26. | :38:29. | |
found abhorrent? There was Twitter abuse. I don't really want to | :38:30. | :38:32. | |
mention any names. But there was twitter abuse against all sides of | :38:33. | :38:38. | |
the party. I specifically remember one girl had to go out crying. And | :38:39. | :38:45. | |
she was a supporter of Jeremy. And I felt that it was really unfair on | :38:46. | :38:48. | |
her, just because she supported Jeremy. There was nothing wrong with | :38:49. | :38:55. | |
what she said. But it's the general behaviour on your site. Some people | :38:56. | :38:58. | |
forget that Twitter is something that is going to be there for all | :38:59. | :39:03. | |
time. They make totally uncalled for, unpleasant remarks. It happens | :39:04. | :39:07. | |
in all walks of life and it shouldn't happen. And people should | :39:08. | :39:11. | |
remember that if you say something on Twitter or Facebook it is | :39:12. | :39:13. | |
basically there the whole world every time. We are against it, I am | :39:14. | :39:21. | |
sure you are, to. But there is a reason it is happening, Jeremy, | :39:22. | :39:24. | |
because we have become divided between people who are supportive of | :39:25. | :39:27. | |
you and the rest of the Labour Party. The truth is unfortunately | :39:28. | :39:31. | |
some people seem to feel that you are the only socialist in the Labour | :39:32. | :39:36. | |
Party. Some people seem to feel that you are the only guardian of our | :39:37. | :39:39. | |
values because you've voted against the last Labour government a lot. | :39:40. | :39:45. | |
The truth is I'm not a red Tory, I'm not a Blairite, I'm a socialist same | :39:46. | :39:49. | |
as you, but I am being castigated. Again they laugh but I'm just | :39:50. | :39:53. | |
telling the truth. I have never considered myself a Blairite, I have | :39:54. | :39:58. | |
always considered myself a socialist. Unfortunately in this | :39:59. | :40:01. | |
current climate, if I'm not supporting Jeremy I am both of those | :40:02. | :40:04. | |
thing and all of the PLP members are both those things, and we are not. | :40:05. | :40:09. | |
You must acknowledge that, Mr Corbyn, if people are not supporting | :40:10. | :40:14. | |
you, they feel castigated as conspiracy theorists or not pure | :40:15. | :40:19. | |
enough, as Owen Smith says? Well, in my experience there has always been | :40:20. | :40:22. | |
huge levels of debate within the Labour Party. But the atmosphere has | :40:23. | :40:29. | |
become toxic? Well, how do you know? I attend large numbers of labour | :40:30. | :40:33. | |
events all over the country, at the moment we are doing a leadership | :40:34. | :40:37. | |
campaign, for that I attended large number of events where there were | :40:38. | :40:41. | |
people of all shades of opinion having an intelligent, respectful | :40:42. | :40:44. | |
discussion and debate, and that is how you should do things at all | :40:45. | :40:49. | |
times. People here, do you think the atmosphere has become toxic? Yes. Do | :40:50. | :40:58. | |
you know why that is, though? My name is Chris, I returned to the | :40:59. | :41:01. | |
Labour Party because of Mr Corbyn, I went to the Green party during the | :41:02. | :41:06. | |
Blair years due to the fact they were relating on so many manifesto | :41:07. | :41:13. | |
promises. NHS, Iraq war. You mentioned a poignant words to me | :41:14. | :41:16. | |
when we talk about policy, narrative. How is narrative built? | :41:17. | :41:22. | |
How do we construct perceptions, and how are these perceptions | :41:23. | :41:25. | |
orchestrated or developed? Largely through the media. Before Jeremy | :41:26. | :41:31. | |
Corbyn was even elected he was being brandished as unelectable, this | :41:32. | :41:34. | |
dangerous left-wing rogue, he rebelled against his government so | :41:35. | :41:37. | |
many times, without looking at the detail of what he rebelled against. | :41:38. | :41:40. | |
He rebelled against principled things, chiefly the Iraq war. I | :41:41. | :41:46. | |
remember him talking in 2003 about the Iraq war, and how are these | :41:47. | :41:52. | |
narrative is being formed? This man is the embodiment of so many | :41:53. | :41:55. | |
principles which expose so many other MPs within the Parliamentary | :41:56. | :42:00. | |
Labour Party, we can look at people voting records online. Owen Smith | :42:01. | :42:03. | |
has a very credible voting record and I agree with a lot of his | :42:04. | :42:10. | |
positions. And this lady who suffered abuse in Derby, Twitter | :42:11. | :42:16. | |
lends itself to an incredible amount of saturation. I am getting | :42:17. | :42:21. | |
passionate just talking about it, but people are passionate and lose | :42:22. | :42:24. | |
sight of what the discussion is. Sessions get the -based into | :42:25. | :42:30. | |
narratives and sound bites. For our audience across the UK, I want to | :42:31. | :42:33. | |
bring them a film which talks about the history of this toxic | :42:34. | :42:39. | |
environment which I know you say is not necessarily accurate, that lets | :42:40. | :42:44. | |
look at some of the facts in the last 12 months or so. There has been | :42:45. | :42:49. | |
a report into anti-Semitism, there have been allegations from various | :42:50. | :42:54. | |
female Labour MPs, as our guest over here mentioned. These are the facts. | :42:55. | :43:00. | |
When does Democratic debates stopped and intimidation begin? Allegations | :43:01. | :43:08. | |
of abuse in Labour really started with the Syrian war vote, around a | :43:09. | :43:12. | |
court of the party MPs voted against the leadership and four air strikes. | :43:13. | :43:18. | |
A number of online threats were made against those MPs. Senior party | :43:19. | :43:22. | |
figures called for the abuse to stop. I'm asking what your reader | :43:23. | :43:26. | |
should do about the bullying of your colleagues? A firm line needs to be | :43:27. | :43:30. | |
taken, a code of conduct around social media, there cannot be abuse. | :43:31. | :43:35. | |
Some threats were blamed on activists linked to momentum. There | :43:36. | :43:43. | |
was talk of unsupportive MPs being sacked or be selected if they did | :43:44. | :43:50. | |
not fall into line. Momentum insisted it was not organising | :43:51. | :43:52. | |
deselection is an strongly disapproved of brilliant. You are | :43:53. | :43:57. | |
rewriting history. Allegations of a different kind of abuse in Labour, | :43:58. | :44:02. | |
this time Ken Livingstone and Labour MP Naz Shah were both suspended | :44:03. | :44:07. | |
after claims comments they made were anti-Semitic, or anti-Jewish. An | :44:08. | :44:09. | |
independent enquiry was launched into racism in Labour. Why are you | :44:10. | :44:15. | |
continuing to hold on? Then it became clear that Jeremy Corbyn | :44:16. | :44:19. | |
would face a leadership challenge. A brick was thrown through the window | :44:20. | :44:22. | |
of the constituency office of his early rival Angela Eagle. Is it true | :44:23. | :44:31. | |
you have had death threats? The police are looking into it. More | :44:32. | :44:35. | |
than 40 Labour MPs signed a letter relating to rape and death threats. | :44:36. | :44:39. | |
Owen Smith said not enough was being done to clamp down on misogyny. Has | :44:40. | :44:43. | |
he encouraged it? I don't know but I think he has not been strong enough. | :44:44. | :44:47. | |
He has genuinely not understood what a grave problem this is. It is | :44:48. | :44:52. | |
acclaimed Jeremy Corbyn and firmly denies. He points out that he has | :44:53. | :44:57. | |
also been the subject of much abuse and adds that there should be | :44:58. | :45:00. | |
dignity even when there is disagreement. Where there are | :45:01. | :45:03. | |
disagreements in our party we settle them through democratic means. No | :45:04. | :45:06. | |
coups, no intimidation, no abuse. So those are some of the facts, much | :45:07. | :45:21. | |
more from the audience, could just ask you Mr Corbyn about the report | :45:22. | :45:23. | |
into anti-Semitism. June 30 we would get one nomination, | :45:24. | :45:43. | |
I thought somebody with her record as a human rights lawyer, would make | :45:44. | :45:48. | |
an enormous contribution to the House of Lords. I think everybody | :45:49. | :45:52. | |
should welcome that. She is somebody of enormous talent and was general | :45:53. | :45:57. | |
secretary of Liberty for a long time. On the day David Cameron | :45:58. | :46:07. | |
resigned, you offered it to her, would she say? Shouldn't she was | :46:08. | :46:12. | |
pleased to accept it and would work hard and take the Labour whip. Do | :46:13. | :46:18. | |
you accept the acquisition of bias, you asked her to carry out the | :46:19. | :46:21. | |
report, she joined the party, is carried out the report which said | :46:22. | :46:24. | |
there wasn't widespread anti-Semitism within the labour | :46:25. | :46:27. | |
movement, then you offered her the peerage. Anybody who knows Shami | :46:28. | :46:32. | |
Chakrabarti would know she's a person of the most incredible | :46:33. | :46:36. | |
intellectual rigour... Can I finish? Rigour and and she used a report, | :46:37. | :46:42. | |
she met a very large number of people, she produced a report which | :46:43. | :46:45. | |
has proposed a series of rule changes and a process of educational | :46:46. | :46:50. | |
involvement within the party which was well received by the entirety of | :46:51. | :46:55. | |
the National executive of the party. And you accept that the sequence of | :46:56. | :47:00. | |
events leads some to see there is a perception of bias? I hope maybe | :47:01. | :47:04. | |
would do that, they will recognise her as somebody of great value and | :47:05. | :47:08. | |
strength to our society assembly will stand up for human rights and | :47:09. | :47:12. | |
the liberty of everybody in this country. -- as somebody who will | :47:13. | :47:21. | |
stand up. My name is Jane, I'm a young Labour member, with just 4% of | :47:22. | :47:27. | |
the Jewish labour movement voting for you, Jeremy, if you become | :47:28. | :47:30. | |
elected as leader again, what policies will you put in place to | :47:31. | :47:34. | |
make them feel included in the Labour Party? I will meet the Jewish | :47:35. | :47:38. | |
labour movement as indeed I have met many other Jewish organisations, who | :47:39. | :47:45. | |
have given me a lot of very helpful advice. I have had meetings with the | :47:46. | :47:48. | |
board of the parties and others and will continue that dialogue and | :47:49. | :47:51. | |
inclusion with, because the history of the whole Jewish community, the | :47:52. | :47:57. | |
abominable way they have been treated hysterically, but also the | :47:58. | :48:02. | |
huge radical tradition of the Jewish community, many great causes, I will | :48:03. | :48:09. | |
be jacked up in the same way I want to reach out all communities. It it | :48:10. | :48:14. | |
still a big issue despite the report? I have friends who joined | :48:15. | :48:19. | |
the Labour Party the day after we lost the election, those friends | :48:20. | :48:22. | |
resigned the day that you became leader and they are Jewish friends | :48:23. | :48:27. | |
of mine. Getting them back on board, we are struggling, because they just | :48:28. | :48:30. | |
don't believe this is a safe party for them to be a part of. And if | :48:31. | :48:34. | |
Owen Smith was elected, would they rejoin? They would consider it. | :48:35. | :48:41. | |
Anti-Semitism in the labour movement. The report was carried out | :48:42. | :48:45. | |
by Shami Chakrabarti, some said it was a whitewash, others warmly | :48:46. | :48:49. | |
received and said the recommendations she put out there | :48:50. | :48:51. | |
should help alleviate this, what do you think? I have met with a couple | :48:52. | :48:58. | |
of repairs and tips of the Jewish community and the Jewish labour | :48:59. | :49:02. | |
community, and I think the proof of the report is they don't think it is | :49:03. | :49:09. | |
adequate. -- a couple of representatives. They think it | :49:10. | :49:11. | |
doesn't acknowledge the extent of the problem, and that is one of the | :49:12. | :49:15. | |
reasons they have lost faith in Jeremy. They did nominate me this | :49:16. | :49:18. | |
week and I'm proud they have done that. There was a great big sigh | :49:19. | :49:24. | |
from somebody over here, I am not sure why. I don't know why either, | :49:25. | :49:29. | |
did anybody should be saying about something as important as Labour | :49:30. | :49:34. | |
appealing to one of the communities that has traditionally supported us. | :49:35. | :49:46. | |
The Tories, about 8% of the... We should all be concerned about that. | :49:47. | :49:54. | |
I am a trade unionist, an elected member of my national indicative | :49:55. | :50:01. | |
committee, my union are cooked Alli supporting Jeremy in this. I want to | :50:02. | :50:05. | |
bring back the emphasis of Labour history but also about being an | :50:06. | :50:11. | |
elected member. As far as I'm concerned the Labour Party and | :50:12. | :50:15. | |
myself believe that the core of things is democracy. For me, Jeremy | :50:16. | :50:18. | |
is elected as our leader for the Labour Party. Some people might not | :50:19. | :50:24. | |
like that, the PLP and those MPs are elected by members to be the voice | :50:25. | :50:29. | |
of those members in the parliamentary arena. At the end of | :50:30. | :50:34. | |
the day, I have also seen, for example, Owen, you have said on | :50:35. | :50:42. | |
previous debates that regarding the EU referendum, that you would hold a | :50:43. | :50:45. | |
second one. I disagreed with the result, I was on the doorstep with | :50:46. | :50:55. | |
other Labour MPs campaigning for a Remain vote, but that is democracy | :50:56. | :51:01. | |
at the end of the day. Can I ask you what you feel about the fact this | :51:02. | :51:05. | |
contest is even taking place? I think it is disgraceful and | :51:06. | :51:08. | |
disappointing that the voice of the members of not being heard. Those | :51:09. | :51:12. | |
MPs are there to represent us as ordinary members, not for their own | :51:13. | :51:19. | |
views or careers. You are doing it to further your own career? I am a | :51:20. | :51:27. | |
trade unionist myself. I am with trade unions that are related to the | :51:28. | :51:30. | |
Labour Party and that is important to point out. The other thing I | :51:31. | :51:34. | |
would say is Jeremy used to believe that we should have an election to | :51:35. | :51:37. | |
the leadership of the Labour Party every year. He said so many times in | :51:38. | :51:45. | |
the past. Why is he no worries, or are his supporters worried about | :51:46. | :51:48. | |
their being a challenge? It is not a challenge. Crucially, I am elected | :51:49. | :51:58. | |
by my constituents in Pontypridd. That is the Labour manifesto on | :51:59. | :52:02. | |
which I stood, much of which Jeremy did support, I'm also here to | :52:03. | :52:07. | |
represent my people in Pontypridd and I am very worried that my people | :52:08. | :52:13. | |
in Pontypridd will not have a Labour government in Westminster to support | :52:14. | :52:18. | |
them and the Welsh Labour government with Jeremy as leader. Remember, we | :52:19. | :52:23. | |
have a third of the audience who support Owen Smith, third to support | :52:24. | :52:26. | |
Jeremy Corbyn and this group here who don't yet know. They may choose | :52:27. | :52:34. | |
neither in the end. I allowed yes or no, thinks Owen Smith as leader, | :52:35. | :52:38. | |
when a general election against Theresa May. -- a loud yes or no. | :52:39. | :52:44. | |
What about Jeremy Corbyn, could he do that? The most important people | :52:45. | :52:51. | |
didn't really say anything. This is what you call shouting democracy! In | :52:52. | :53:02. | |
all its many forms. This can of it, there are people who adore you, Mr | :53:03. | :53:06. | |
Corbyn, think you could win a general election, people who respect | :53:07. | :53:11. | |
you don't think you could win a general election because you can't | :53:12. | :53:17. | |
draw in the... What is it? Tens of millions who vote in a general | :53:18. | :53:23. | |
election. Those people have never been to a valley. I think we can | :53:24. | :53:30. | |
appeal to a younger generation, of the advantages of a Labour | :53:31. | :53:35. | |
government that would support them in education, would support them in | :53:36. | :53:38. | |
housing, would support them in training and apprenticeships. I | :53:39. | :53:43. | |
think we can also appeal to an older generation who are worried about the | :53:44. | :53:46. | |
future of the National Health Service and worried about the future | :53:47. | :53:49. | |
of this country, when we have a government that is progressively | :53:50. | :53:53. | |
deindustrialisation of reducing the strength of our economy. And the | :53:54. | :53:59. | |
triple lock on pensions, is that something you would back? I would | :54:00. | :54:05. | |
want to keep that and also to the issue of women being short-changed | :54:06. | :54:11. | |
by the increase in retirement age and have proper transitional | :54:12. | :54:15. | |
payments. I have looked at the 50 polls that have been done since the | :54:16. | :54:18. | |
beginning of this year, Internet polls, in 45 of them, the | :54:19. | :54:23. | |
Conservatives are ahead of you, sometimes by as much as 14 points. | :54:24. | :54:34. | |
Listen. When this is over, this party has got to get together, take | :54:35. | :54:39. | |
on the Tories on housing, education, health, and we can do that. | :54:40. | :54:48. | |
Because I think that is at the heart of this, most people can see there | :54:49. | :54:54. | |
isn't a huge difference between me and Jeremy on all sorts of policies. | :54:55. | :54:59. | |
There really isn't. We should be spending more money on the NHS, | :55:00. | :55:04. | |
building housing. You disagree on Trident and on Europe. I think which | :55:05. | :55:10. | |
still should be fighting to stay in the European Union. But Jeremy can't | :55:11. | :55:17. | |
escape the reality that we are at 28% in the polls, the lowest we have | :55:18. | :55:23. | |
been since 1982. At this trajectory, we will be at 22% at the next | :55:24. | :55:27. | |
election and that would decimate the Labour Party, and without winning an | :55:28. | :55:31. | |
election, all of the things he and I want to do to improve this country | :55:32. | :55:33. | |
will be for naught. As you know, I came to see you try | :55:34. | :55:52. | |
to sort this out. You came to see me and said he would come to support | :55:53. | :55:56. | |
me... You offered me a job that didn't exist, that I would be | :55:57. | :56:01. | |
opposed to and then resigned, it was strange. The truth is, we are and | :56:02. | :56:13. | |
incredible low ebb at the moment, and our communities, we can't afford | :56:14. | :56:17. | |
to sit through, as I sat through in my youth, 18 years of the Tories. | :56:18. | :56:21. | |
How much do you accept responsibility for the low ebb? I | :56:22. | :56:25. | |
think we have been incredibly weak as an opposition. I think all of us | :56:26. | :56:32. | |
in the Labour Party need to accept I am asking about you personally. | :56:33. | :56:41. | |
Three things Jeremy loves to talk about, the PLP victory over the | :56:42. | :56:44. | |
Tories on disabled benefits, I want that for the Labour Party. No, we | :56:45. | :56:54. | |
won that. No, we want that. Jeremy, I had one meeting with you in nine | :56:55. | :56:59. | |
months about those issues. So if you were helping me, it wasn't obvious. | :57:00. | :57:06. | |
Tax credits, PIP, getting rid of Iain Duncan Smith... How much are | :57:07. | :57:11. | |
you personally responsible for the crisis the party found itself in | :57:12. | :57:18. | |
now, on a scale of note to 100? Let's say three. We were behind in | :57:19. | :57:27. | |
85% of the polls. And the same question to you. How much they | :57:28. | :57:30. | |
believe you are responsible for the crisis in the Labour Party were now | :57:31. | :57:34. | |
on that scale? Owen Smith says he is 3% responsible. I'm not good | :57:35. | :57:39. | |
stopping figures on it, I have done my best to reach out is of the PLP, | :57:40. | :57:47. | |
the green paper together, Owen is quite right, we did defeat the | :57:48. | :57:54. | |
government on PIP, forced academise assertion, I say we because every | :57:55. | :57:57. | |
Labour member and the bolted together on that, and Labour numbers | :57:58. | :58:02. | |
of voters together on that. Could I reach out more, I will do my best to | :58:03. | :58:06. | |
reach out as far as I can. But it is a two-way, reciprocal process. | :58:07. | :58:11. | |
Please could you answer the question. I don't think it is | :58:12. | :58:17. | |
possible to put graded figures on this, can we discuss policies? We're | :58:18. | :58:26. | |
going to talk about policies in the next hour of the programme posted by | :58:27. | :58:29. | |
will give you one more opportunity to answer that. I will reach out to | :58:30. | :58:36. | |
people as I have in the past. I want the party members they used to be | :58:37. | :58:40. | |
represented. Do you think you have done a lot of reaching out, do you | :58:41. | :58:46. | |
think it works? It can work on certain occasions. Give me an | :58:47. | :58:52. | |
example. When you have become United. I have worked very well with | :58:53. | :58:58. | |
Andy Burnham since it became Shadow Home Secretary. I have been very | :58:59. | :59:05. | |
happy to work with Owen on the issues he was for responsible for, | :59:06. | :59:08. | |
with John McDonnell on the issues he is responsible for. So yes, it is a | :59:09. | :59:15. | |
broad church, of course it is, it has always been. I am from | :59:16. | :59:22. | |
Loughborough, I am a Unison steward and I work for children in care. I | :59:23. | :59:25. | |
have been a member of the Labour Party for 35 years and my dad was a | :59:26. | :59:31. | |
member, he is a member and my mum is. I am passionate about the Labour | :59:32. | :59:34. | |
Party, I love it and what it stands for, the legacy of things we have | :59:35. | :59:40. | |
created, the welfare state, conference of schooling, the NHS, we | :59:41. | :59:43. | |
should be immensely proud of that and it breaks my heart to see what | :59:44. | :59:49. | |
the party currently is, we have spent this programme are going | :59:50. | :59:52. | |
amongst ourselves about what the party should be doing and we have | :59:53. | :59:56. | |
this devastating Tory government that is affecting and crippling the | :59:57. | :59:59. | |
lives of the people we should be representing. I would be insisted, | :00:00. | :00:08. | |
to rethink either could be a Labour Party Prime Minister, whether Jeremy | :00:09. | :00:11. | |
believes he can genuinely believe an election. We saw a video earlier the | :00:12. | :00:16. | |
last election, and the announcement that the Tories had one in every | :00:17. | :00:20. | |
time I see that, it breaks my heart. I don't want to see that again. We | :00:21. | :00:24. | |
can't afford that as a country and the people hit by austerity cannot | :00:25. | :00:26. | |
afford that again. Good morning. I am Sarah. I work for | :00:27. | :00:39. | |
the Royal College of Nursing. The state of the Labour Party, it is in | :00:40. | :00:45. | |
the name, party. If you have a leader, it is the responsibility of | :00:46. | :00:48. | |
the rest of the party to get behind that leader. This is not the time to | :00:49. | :00:57. | |
break apart the Labour Party. Leader Mr classic opportunity to pounce on | :00:58. | :01:02. | |
the Tory party when they were in disarray over Brexit. This debate | :01:03. | :01:12. | |
should have been the line. -- been away down the line. My name is | :01:13. | :01:19. | |
Adrian. I am a Labour supporter and proud. But I am getting disappointed | :01:20. | :01:23. | |
and disillusioned with the infighting. I feel like it is | :01:24. | :01:28. | |
damaging the Labour brand. It is making is unelectable. We need to | :01:29. | :01:36. | |
get our act together and be united. I really hope that can happen. What | :01:37. | :01:41. | |
will it take? It will have to happen after the leadership. If it doesn't, | :01:42. | :01:48. | |
we are in big, big trouble. My name is Rachel. I rejoined the Labour | :01:49. | :01:55. | |
Party when Ed MIliband became leader. I thought we had moved back | :01:56. | :02:00. | |
to our core values to protect working People's rights. And was | :02:01. | :02:04. | |
very disappointed in Ed Miliband. I was pleased when Jeremy was elected. | :02:05. | :02:09. | |
This situation now is very depressing. It is so divisive. I am | :02:10. | :02:16. | |
getting abuse and people who support Jeremy Corbyn are getting abuse. | :02:17. | :02:24. | |
They're putting pictures of Chairman Mao and Stalin on the backdrop. It | :02:25. | :02:29. | |
is on both sides. The chair of my local branch is doing that. When I | :02:30. | :02:34. | |
go to my local branch meeting in September, it will be awkward | :02:35. | :02:37. | |
because I feel there is a huge division and I don't feel respect is | :02:38. | :02:42. | |
being made by the Owen Smith supporters and I feel like the | :02:43. | :02:48. | |
debate is getting more and more depressing and puerile. We must talk | :02:49. | :02:53. | |
about the issues. Winnie to talk about why people didn't vote for | :02:54. | :03:03. | |
Labour. I believe people voted for Ukip because we have abandoned our | :03:04. | :03:10. | |
traditional values. The champagne politics of Blair have taken over. I | :03:11. | :03:14. | |
left the Labour Party under Tony Blair. I was very depressed. When Ed | :03:15. | :03:23. | |
Miliband took over, I thought great. And now I am depressed because I | :03:24. | :03:28. | |
think that ever happens, MPs have created a divisive atmosphere. We | :03:29. | :03:37. | |
have another hour of conversation to come. We will be joined by listeners | :03:38. | :03:42. | |
on Radio 5 Live as well. It's Wednesday, it's 10am, | :03:43. | :03:50. | |
I'm Victoria Derbyshire. Welcome to the programme, | :03:51. | :03:55. | |
today we're live in Nottingham. Plenty more debate | :03:56. | :04:07. | |
between Mr Corbyn, Mr Smith We need to get ready for government. | :04:08. | :04:26. | |
I think that means to change the leader and be more credible across | :04:27. | :04:31. | |
the country. Still radical. But speak more directly to the country. | :04:32. | :04:36. | |
If elected again, I will try and reach out to all members of the PLP | :04:37. | :04:40. | |
and invite them to get on board. There are an awful lot of issues we | :04:41. | :04:45. | |
can agree on and we can take the fight to the Tories. That really is | :04:46. | :04:48. | |
what Labour members and millions of other voters want us to do. Our | :04:49. | :05:00. | |
audience here are 120 Labour supporters, Labour members and those | :05:01. | :05:03. | |
who would consider voting Labour in the future. They have told us they | :05:04. | :05:08. | |
are concerned that the nature of the debate has become uncomfortable. | :05:09. | :05:23. | |
The two contenders have clashed about the levels and direction of | :05:24. | :05:31. | |
abuse within the party. Some people seem to feel you are the socialist | :05:32. | :05:38. | |
in the Labour Party. Some people feel you are the only Guardian of | :05:39. | :05:44. | |
our values. The truth is, I am not a red Tory. I am not a playwright, I | :05:45. | :05:52. | |
am a socialist, same as you. Again, they laugh. I have never considered | :05:53. | :05:57. | |
myself Blairite. I have always considered myself a socialist. Can | :05:58. | :06:02. | |
we agree we want is party to be inclusive, open and welcoming, but | :06:03. | :06:08. | |
doesn't tolerate foul language racism in any form. Good morning. I | :06:09. | :06:24. | |
am Victoria Derbyshire. We live in Nottingham today. We have been | :06:25. | :06:28. | |
debating with the two men who want to run the Labour Party. Jeremy | :06:29. | :06:35. | |
Corbyn and Owen Smith. Year with an audience of 120 Labour supporters, | :06:36. | :06:38. | |
Labour members and people who would consider voting Labour in the | :06:39. | :06:42. | |
future. A lot of the conversation in the last half hour particularly has | :06:43. | :06:46. | |
been about Labour members so upset about the state of their party, | :06:47. | :06:50. | |
Labour members have recently joined who believe they have entered a | :06:51. | :06:54. | |
toxic environment and they don't like that feeling. | :06:55. | :07:18. | |
There has been some emotion and a lot of passion. In the next hour, we | :07:19. | :07:22. | |
want to talk about the kind of promises Owen Smith and Jeremy | :07:23. | :07:24. | |
Corbyn are making to their supporters in order to get elected | :07:25. | :07:27. | |
as leader. Can we also say hello and good morning to listeners from BBC | :07:28. | :07:30. | |
Radio Five Live who join us right now. As I said, in the last | :07:31. | :07:32. | |
half-hour, we have heard lots of conversation. We will ask both men | :07:33. | :07:35. | |
to set out their policies in a second. We have already talked about | :07:36. | :07:37. | |
Labour and the potential problem of nastiness and general abuse to | :07:38. | :07:40. | |
anyone who might disagree with the Labour leadership. But first, our | :07:41. | :07:49. | |
audience in Nottingham have been split up into groups. Over here, | :07:50. | :07:59. | |
people who support Jeremy Corbyn. Over here, people who support Owen | :08:00. | :08:09. | |
Smith. And over here, people who have not yet made up their mind and | :08:10. | :08:13. | |
me in the end choose neither of the two men here today. What about those | :08:14. | :08:19. | |
parts of the electorate they will need to attract if the are to stand | :08:20. | :08:28. | |
any chance of winning an election. This is Croydon Central. Currently | :08:29. | :08:35. | |
held by a conservative by just 165 votes. So the Labour Party knows it | :08:36. | :08:39. | |
needs to win here if it is going to win the general election. It is | :08:40. | :08:45. | |
third on their target list. But what does the target audience make of | :08:46. | :08:49. | |
these two? Do you know who this gentleman is? He is an MP. I don't | :08:50. | :08:59. | |
know his name. He is the Labour leader at the moment. Am not too | :09:00. | :09:09. | |
sure who he is. Who is he? What has he done? He hasn't got any history | :09:10. | :09:14. | |
of supporting labour cause is. Jeremy has been supporting causes | :09:15. | :09:21. | |
since the 1970s. That is the man. What you think of this man? Samac I | :09:22. | :09:31. | |
wouldn't have him in my government. He is at Trotsky. Total Trotsky. He | :09:32. | :09:39. | |
is a wrong one and he is a wrong one. He should step down. Why is he | :09:40. | :09:53. | |
a good Labour Leader? He hasn't changed his views in terms of social | :09:54. | :10:01. | |
mobility. Housing. He has been very consistent. I hope he gets it | :10:02. | :10:15. | |
because Labour want one for a hundred years. I really hope he gets | :10:16. | :10:21. | |
voted in. Saw the Conservatives went? Yes. There we go. Not that | :10:22. | :10:34. | |
many recognised you, Owen Smith. Here is an opportunity for our | :10:35. | :10:38. | |
audience across the country to get to know you better. Short and | :10:39. | :10:45. | |
concise answers, please. Owen Smith, what is worse, being described as a | :10:46. | :10:55. | |
Tory or a smarmy nonentity slaved in ambition, that was from your former | :10:56. | :11:03. | |
boss. Described as a Tory. Who's your favourite conservative | :11:04. | :11:12. | |
politician? Don't have any. When was the last time he got angry? 20 | :11:13. | :11:18. | |
minutes ago because we are debating the future of the Labour Party which | :11:19. | :11:22. | |
is at a low ebb. People in this country can't afford not to be a | :11:23. | :11:30. | |
Labour government. How much is petrol? ?1 not far out. I have some | :11:31. | :11:47. | |
photographs. Pop quiz Time. It is. For radio listeners, I will tell you | :11:48. | :11:51. | |
the answers in a second. Can you name who is in this photograph? | :11:52. | :12:01. | |
Taylor Swift and Justin Bieber. I like singing she kept on karaoke. | :12:02. | :12:07. | |
How many medals has Jason Kelly achieved over his entire cycling | :12:08. | :12:16. | |
career? Loads. Seven. Don't know. Six. What was the Wales against | :12:17. | :12:28. | |
Belgium score? 3-0. I was in the pub and I had had a few. I know we won | :12:29. | :12:41. | |
and I celebrated with gusto. 3-1. What is Jeremy Corbyn's best | :12:42. | :12:47. | |
quality? He has a nice line in cream suits. Here's a great man with | :12:48. | :12:52. | |
principles but I don't think he is a leader. At the moment, he is leading | :12:53. | :13:04. | |
us to a loss. Would you serve in his Shadow Cabinet if he wins and | :13:05. | :13:10. | |
invites you into it? I am someone with integrity. I have lost faith in | :13:11. | :13:18. | |
his ability to lead as. I would serve on the backbenches. Hundreds | :13:19. | :13:26. | |
of times he voted against as. 455 times on all sorts of issues. I will | :13:27. | :13:33. | |
always be Labour. Jeremy Corbyn, what do you prefer, Blairism or | :13:34. | :13:39. | |
Trotskyism? I would have to say neither. Can you name the three | :13:40. | :13:52. | |
things that you admire about Tony Blair? The fact he took through the | :13:53. | :13:57. | |
whole Northern Ireland peace process with great determination. He did | :13:58. | :14:02. | |
that extremely well. The fact he supported the National Minimum Wage. | :14:03. | :14:07. | |
And the fact his government brought in the Human Rights Act and paved | :14:08. | :14:17. | |
the way for workers' rights. Would you call yourself a feminist? Yes. | :14:18. | :14:24. | |
When was the last time you cried and what was it about? Can't remember, | :14:25. | :14:30. | |
so I don't know what it was about. I don't do a lot of crying. How much | :14:31. | :14:37. | |
does a first-class stamp cost? 50p. 65? I'm holding up a picture of two | :14:38. | :14:50. | |
young men. I think they have just reached 40. Do you know who these | :14:51. | :14:58. | |
two men are and which one is which? I will give you a clue. They are | :14:59. | :15:05. | |
Geordie TV presenters. They are Geordie TV presenters. Now, I don't | :15:06. | :15:11. | |
know. I cannot name them. I am really sorry. That is ant and deck. | :15:12. | :15:20. | |
They are Labour supporters. I know. Be sent an e-mail of support. I will | :15:21. | :15:29. | |
apologise humbly to Ant and Dec. I do apologies, it's all right. | :15:30. | :15:30. | |
Goodness me. How many Olympic golds has Sir | :15:31. | :15:45. | |
Bradley Wiggins achieved so far? 15, I think, altogether. Gold. Ten. | :15:46. | :15:56. | |
Lola. You tweeted it was eight and it was deleted. Deleted by whom? Has | :15:57. | :16:06. | |
my Twitter account and hack into? Let's go for eight. You tweeted on | :16:07. | :16:13. | |
Friday, congratulations to Bradley for his eighth gold medal, it's not | :16:14. | :16:21. | |
eight, its... It is still a great achievement. What is the best thing | :16:22. | :16:28. | |
about Owen Smith? He's passionate and direct and he gets very excited. | :16:29. | :16:33. | |
I have seen you get excited, what's wrong with that? What is the worst | :16:34. | :16:39. | |
thing about Owen Smith. That he resigned from the Shadow Cabinet, | :16:40. | :16:47. | |
and he should come back. So if you win, you will extend an invitation | :16:48. | :16:50. | |
to him to come back to the Shadow Cabinet even though he has said he's | :16:51. | :16:55. | |
not going to. People change. Would you serve in his Cabinet if he won? | :16:56. | :17:04. | |
If he invites me, but he might want to think about that. I understand. | :17:05. | :17:12. | |
Jeremy asked that last week and I said last week as I have said on two | :17:13. | :17:17. | |
occasions, yes I would want Jeremy in the Shadow Cabinet. But he | :17:18. | :17:21. | |
definitely don't want to be president. Because the position | :17:22. | :17:29. | |
doesn't exist! And leader can propose, the party can decide. | :17:30. | :17:37. | |
We do have a chairman, we could elevate that role, as we have in the | :17:38. | :17:47. | |
past. Harold Lasky. What do you think about what you have heard from | :17:48. | :17:51. | |
these gentlemen? Quick thoughts before talk about policies. Jeremy | :17:52. | :18:00. | |
keeps saying... My name is leaving, I have come from Yorkshire to be on | :18:01. | :18:03. | |
the show. I just wanted to say Jeremy has mentioned that Owen | :18:04. | :18:08. | |
Menard asking to be part of the Shadow Cabinet, what was the | :18:09. | :18:13. | |
rationale behind that? He has asked me so the question is answered. I | :18:14. | :18:21. | |
suppose so, sorry. Quick thoughts. As an Labour Party, when we talk | :18:22. | :18:26. | |
about policies which unite us, it's fantastic, and we should do that | :18:27. | :18:31. | |
more, and do it more in the media as well, instead of just being seen as | :18:32. | :18:34. | |
bickering all the time, which clearly you guys here today are not. | :18:35. | :18:39. | |
Quick thoughts before we talk about policies. Trust and confidence in me | :18:40. | :18:45. | |
to be maintained and there needs to be unity and feel that on the first | :18:46. | :18:50. | |
hurdle, by resigning, by going against Mr Corbyn with the other PLP | :18:51. | :18:54. | |
members, that trust and confidence has been severely damaged, how can | :18:55. | :18:58. | |
we ever get behind somebody else when they have stabbed somebody in | :18:59. | :19:04. | |
the back, and I think this culture, we want somebody who is honest and | :19:05. | :19:10. | |
sticks to his principles stop when I first heard about Mr Corbyn when I | :19:11. | :19:13. | |
joined the Labour Party last year, I looked at his record and thought, | :19:14. | :19:17. | |
this guy has stuck with his message, 15 of those who are bigger, looking | :19:18. | :19:25. | |
to build this country into a gradation -- lifting up those who | :19:26. | :19:31. | |
are weaker. Review, I think a lot of public regressions and celebrity | :19:32. | :19:40. | |
culture. -- with you. He is not a bad man because he recognised Taylor | :19:41. | :19:45. | |
Swift and Justin Bieber. He's bubbly and very decent man. But a | :19:46. | :19:53. | |
backstabber! By the act of resigning. What other conclusion can | :19:54. | :19:57. | |
I come up with when I see somebody resigning from somebody who has been | :19:58. | :20:00. | |
elected by the members of the Labour Party, I am a new member and I feel | :20:01. | :20:06. | |
criminalised by this process. Simply because of the... We do not run | :20:07. | :20:13. | |
away... Answer the point about being a backstabber. Tell him, not me. I | :20:14. | :20:23. | |
feel I am elected by my constituency in Pontypridd and I think it would | :20:24. | :20:25. | |
be letting them down if I didn't speak out at a point at which the | :20:26. | :20:31. | |
Labour Party was being led toward irrelevance. I think we have lost a | :20:32. | :20:34. | |
huge degree of credibility, I don't think people are looking to the | :20:35. | :20:39. | |
Labour Party now as an alternative government, the evidence is the fact | :20:40. | :20:43. | |
we have been behind in over 100 polls, Jeremy isn't the only person | :20:44. | :20:46. | |
who wants to make Britain great will deliver our values in power, we all | :20:47. | :20:51. | |
want that in the Labour Party but to do it, we have to be in power and | :20:52. | :20:54. | |
the principled reason I have resigned from the Shadow Cabinet is | :20:55. | :20:58. | |
a don't believe Jeremy Campbell wind power for us. -- can wind power for | :20:59. | :21:10. | |
us. We are going to talk about policies now. We have talked about | :21:11. | :21:17. | |
the current state of the Labour Party. What do the two men stand | :21:18. | :21:23. | |
for? The recent Jeremy Corbyn says he ran in his first leadership | :21:24. | :21:26. | |
contest was to increase the choice party members had in who should | :21:27. | :21:30. | |
represent them. This time however, first boating only have a choice of | :21:31. | :21:38. | |
two and their policies are similar. Owen Smith want to abolish zero | :21:39. | :21:41. | |
hours contracts. Jeremy Corbyn does, too. Jeremy Corbyn wants to scrap | :21:42. | :21:46. | |
the government Veritas trades union act and so this Owen Smith. Both | :21:47. | :21:53. | |
wanted we nationalise the railways. Both want to see a 100% publicly on | :21:54. | :21:58. | |
the NHS that is free at the point of use, and both with the C major | :21:59. | :22:01. | |
investment in the north of England. They often have the same principles | :22:02. | :22:08. | |
and it's to see first glance what separates them. Jeremy Corbyn says | :22:09. | :22:11. | |
he will guarantee 1 million new homes within four years, Owen Smith | :22:12. | :22:18. | |
has pledged to build a 1.5 million within five years. Mr Smith says he | :22:19. | :22:22. | |
will ensure the billion pound investment in the economy focusing | :22:23. | :22:28. | |
on jobs in the future, Jeremy Corbyn as proposed investing 500 billion to | :22:29. | :22:32. | |
invest in new industries and to pay towards it Jeremy Corbyn wants to | :22:33. | :22:37. | |
reinstate the 50p top rate tax and plans 1% increase in corporation | :22:38. | :22:42. | |
tax. Owen Smith also wants to reintroduce the 50p top rate tax and | :22:43. | :22:45. | |
has proposed a further wealth tax on the top 1% of earners. Both also | :22:46. | :22:52. | |
want to protect the welfare state. Owen Smith want to scrap the | :22:53. | :22:55. | |
Department for Work and Pensions, and Jeremy Corbyn says he would | :22:56. | :23:01. | |
scrap the house benefit tax. On green energy Jeremy Corbyn wants to | :23:02. | :23:05. | |
ensure the UK meets the gold outlined in the climate change act | :23:06. | :23:09. | |
while Owen Smith was to invest in renewable energy. And on foreign | :23:10. | :23:13. | |
policy, Owen Smith says he was against the Iraq war or he wasn't | :23:14. | :23:19. | |
able to vote. Jeremy Corbyn Azores implement the opposed, both voted | :23:20. | :23:25. | |
against air S strikes in Syria. Jeremy Corbyn is permanently opposed | :23:26. | :23:32. | |
to the renewal of Trident and Mr Smith is in favour. Jeremy Corbyn | :23:33. | :23:36. | |
has pledged to punish university commission fees and Owen Smith | :23:37. | :23:40. | |
hasn't set out a policy although he has previously voted against the cap | :23:41. | :23:44. | |
of ?9,000 a year. Owen Smith believes there should be another | :23:45. | :23:47. | |
referendum to approve the government's terms to leave the EU, | :23:48. | :23:54. | |
it remains to be seen whether these differences are enough for Owen | :23:55. | :23:56. | |
Smith to cause a shock. All but one council area here in | :23:57. | :24:06. | |
Nottinghamshire, where we are this month, including the city centre, | :24:07. | :24:10. | |
voted to leave the European Union, from an area where seven out of 11 | :24:11. | :24:15. | |
of its MPs are Labour, exactly the kind of area that the new Labour | :24:16. | :24:19. | |
leader, whoever wins, needs to win over and convinced he is an | :24:20. | :24:24. | |
electable. But if you want to spend more on new housing, both want to be | :24:25. | :24:30. | |
nationalised railways, it spent on infrastructure projects, increase | :24:31. | :24:34. | |
some taxes. Your tax increases white paper you're spending plans, though. | :24:35. | :24:41. | |
The tax increases would obviously help but it is investment in the | :24:42. | :24:45. | |
economy, hence the national investment bank which would help to | :24:46. | :24:50. | |
grow the economy, if we improve public transport links, we improve | :24:51. | :24:53. | |
all transport links and particularly access to bus transport for | :24:54. | :24:57. | |
everybody, that becomes a hopeful economic generator. How much do need | :24:58. | :25:02. | |
to grow the economy by pay for all the things you want to do? We need a | :25:03. | :25:07. | |
growth rate that would continue to increase government income... By how | :25:08. | :25:15. | |
much? At the moment the growth rate is very low, 2% at a very least we | :25:16. | :25:23. | |
can achieve. How do you make up the shortfall? Some of it would be done | :25:24. | :25:31. | |
from burrowing through investment, it is much more efficient to burrow | :25:32. | :25:36. | |
through a national investment government back rather than forcing | :25:37. | :25:39. | |
the debts onto local authorities, hospitals and schools through things | :25:40. | :25:42. | |
like the privately financed initiative or borrowing at a more | :25:43. | :25:45. | |
local level which is much more expensive, we had to invest. What is | :25:46. | :25:53. | |
your plan... For growing the economy, that would pay for the | :25:54. | :25:56. | |
things you want to spend money on, your plan for reducing the 70 | :25:57. | :26:01. | |
billion deficit? The growth of the economy and tax income would help to | :26:02. | :26:06. | |
achieve that... Not if you're spending it on infrastructure | :26:07. | :26:11. | |
projects... Universal childcare, etc. They generate growth, childcare | :26:12. | :26:18. | |
generates growth, good education generates growth. The public sector | :26:19. | :26:23. | |
investment is a win all round in the sense that it develops the economy. | :26:24. | :26:27. | |
It'll be a lot of economic growth you will need to pay for all of | :26:28. | :26:30. | |
that, do you acknowledge it is low at the moment although the fastest | :26:31. | :26:36. | |
in the G7? It is, it could go on at faster, we had the lowest level of | :26:37. | :26:41. | |
investment of any G7 country and we are pretty low on the overall list, | :26:42. | :26:45. | |
we have to invest a lot more in order to achieve the economic | :26:46. | :26:50. | |
success we need. Owen Smith, your sums don't add up either, how you | :26:51. | :26:54. | |
get the paper would you are promising your supporters? My sons | :26:55. | :26:59. | |
do add up, Rice said explicitly that I would raise ?13.5 billion worth of | :27:00. | :27:05. | |
extra taxes, through changing the 50p rate, introducing a wealth tax, | :27:06. | :27:09. | |
not cutting inheritance tax, capital gains tax, but in corporation tax | :27:10. | :27:14. | |
back up to 20% and changing the pension tax relief that is ripping | :27:15. | :27:18. | |
off working people and making sure working people get a better deal out | :27:19. | :27:21. | |
of that, although things would raise money and allow me to pay for | :27:22. | :27:26. | |
getting would of the public sector pay freeze, introducing 4% per | :27:27. | :27:32. | |
annum, by the end of the parliament on the NHS, all of the | :27:33. | :27:37. | |
infrastructure spend would come from raising ?200 billion in burrowing, | :27:38. | :27:42. | |
through issuing long dated government gilts, 40 billion a year | :27:43. | :27:47. | |
for five years, not a single economist disagrees about that. It | :27:48. | :27:56. | |
would allow me to invest. If you are doing all that burrowing, if you | :27:57. | :27:59. | |
don't get the massive growth that you hope for, which we haven't had | :28:00. | :28:04. | |
for a few years, you are acknowledging your guide to be | :28:05. | :28:05. | |
burrowing Malcolm the deficit will go up. The thing that should be | :28:06. | :28:12. | |
crucial is growing the economy, can we afford to leave our children with | :28:13. | :28:17. | |
crumbling hospitals,... You are passing on the debt. At the moment | :28:18. | :28:22. | |
we are passing on failing infrastructure and an inability for | :28:23. | :28:27. | |
children to go to university, the row asked us to deal with the | :28:28. | :28:29. | |
problems for older generations. It is crucial we invest. At. We pay for | :28:30. | :28:38. | |
housing benefit which pays for high rent in the products rented sector, | :28:39. | :28:44. | |
if we diverted that money into building lifetime tenancy council | :28:45. | :28:47. | |
houses, investing in housing, you create jobs in construction and the | :28:48. | :28:52. | |
supply chain and give people a quality-of-life didn't get at the | :28:53. | :28:55. | |
moment and give children a security of knowing their home is their own | :28:56. | :28:59. | |
rather than the threat of being moved every six months in the | :29:00. | :29:05. | |
private rented sector. Comments and questions. My question is for Owen. | :29:06. | :29:19. | |
I am a Jeremy Corbyn supporter. I am a passionate Jeremy Corbyn | :29:20. | :29:23. | |
supporter. I left the Labour Party when Tony Blair won his leadership, | :29:24. | :29:28. | |
and I rejoined the day journey one stop that says how it think. -- the | :29:29. | :29:40. | |
day Jeremy one. What were you thinking when they won on this three | :29:41. | :29:44. | |
times that Labour won general elections? In all honesty, he did | :29:45. | :29:51. | |
make a few good things happen, like Jeremy has just said. But he could | :29:52. | :29:58. | |
have done a lot more. What is your point on policy? I am passionate | :29:59. | :30:05. | |
about Trident issue. I'm curious to know if Owen is in favour of the | :30:06. | :30:09. | |
Trident project at a cost of 200 leading or even more, would he be | :30:10. | :30:15. | |
prepared to press that button and possibly kill millions of people? -- | :30:16. | :30:21. | |
200 billion. And if so, why does that lie within the morale of the of | :30:22. | :30:22. | |
the Labour Party and our movement? Can you first see, I believe we | :30:23. | :30:34. | |
shouldn't be lung busting the record of the last Labour government. We | :30:35. | :30:42. | |
raised the minimum wage. We trebled funding on the NHS. We made sure we | :30:43. | :30:46. | |
were raising wages in this country. It was a period of economic growth. | :30:47. | :30:53. | |
Cities like Nottingham were transformed. It wasn't Labour | :30:54. | :31:00. | |
spending on schools and hospitals that cause the bankers crash. I am a | :31:01. | :31:05. | |
multilateralist. I want to read the entire world of nuclear weapons. We | :31:06. | :31:11. | |
have a disagreement about how best we do that. UN Jeremy believe we | :31:12. | :31:16. | |
should unilaterally get rid of our weapons and hope everybody else | :31:17. | :31:20. | |
follow suit. My view is that is naive. I used to hold that view and | :31:21. | :31:25. | |
I don't any longer. I believe we should negotiate away our nuclear | :31:26. | :31:30. | |
weapons in order to get rid of everyone's nuclear weapons. If we | :31:31. | :31:36. | |
have a nuclear weapon and a deterrent, of course the leader of | :31:37. | :31:39. | |
the Labour Party and the money won't be Prime Minister has to be prepared | :31:40. | :31:44. | |
to say that he would be prepared to deploy the nuclear deterrent. This | :31:45. | :31:52. | |
speaks to the issue of credibility. The country wants the Labour Party | :31:53. | :32:00. | |
to be serious about this -- the security of our country. The world | :32:01. | :32:06. | |
is dangerous. I think they want a Labour Party that will maintain the | :32:07. | :32:12. | |
security of our country. You famously said he would not press the | :32:13. | :32:17. | |
button. You said you would keep the submarines but there would be no | :32:18. | :32:24. | |
weapon systems on them. They would-be non-nuclear weapons. | :32:25. | :32:29. | |
Security is crucial. Issues around the world are crucial. The use of | :32:30. | :32:34. | |
nuclear weapons is unconscionable by anybody I would've thought. One | :32:35. | :32:39. | |
nuclear explosion anywhere in the world would set off a chain reaction | :32:40. | :32:45. | |
of human and environmental disaster around the globe we agreed with | :32:46. | :32:55. | |
article six we would take steps towards disarmament. Security in the | :32:56. | :33:08. | |
world can be dealt with by respect for human rights, by a process which | :33:09. | :33:24. | |
seeks to bring an agreement across the world. Issues in Syria and Libya | :33:25. | :33:41. | |
cannot have that sort of response. In Syria, would you sit down with | :33:42. | :33:46. | |
President Assad, would you sit down with members of so-called Islamic | :33:47. | :33:51. | |
State? There has to be a political process and there already is being | :33:52. | :33:55. | |
conducted through the Geneva talks. That does involve negotiations with | :33:56. | :34:01. | |
the Assad regime. Also I suspect it brings in some kind of proximity | :34:02. | :34:06. | |
talks or whatever. Owen Smith and I both voted against the bombing of | :34:07. | :34:10. | |
Syria because we couldn't see any credible use of it or value to it | :34:11. | :34:15. | |
because what was then going to happen was a plethora of people | :34:16. | :34:20. | |
opposed to Assad, including the Al-Nusra Front Gage, who were close | :34:21. | :34:25. | |
to Al-Qaeda. We have to support a serious political process and that | :34:26. | :34:30. | |
has to be redoubled. With this process involved anyone from | :34:31. | :34:38. | |
so-called Islamic State? Not around the table, no. I worked on the | :34:39. | :34:44. | |
Northern Ireland peace process for three years. I helped bring to | :34:45. | :34:52. | |
gather the loyalist paramilitaries and the DUP. Ultimately all | :34:53. | :34:56. | |
solutions to these sorts of crises and international crises come about | :34:57. | :35:00. | |
through dialogue. Eventually, if we are to try and solve this, all of | :35:01. | :35:05. | |
the actors still need to be involved. At the | :35:06. | :35:16. | |
moment,... At some point, we will need to get people around the table | :35:17. | :35:24. | |
to solve this. All morning we have had differences. We have not gone on | :35:25. | :35:30. | |
to how we will reconcile those changes. The Trident question is | :35:31. | :35:35. | |
probably the one issue on which that was the greatest Adam but we have to | :35:36. | :35:46. | |
come up with a practical solution. Jeremy Corbyn is likely to win the | :35:47. | :35:53. | |
leadership election. We know that, let's be practical. How will you | :35:54. | :35:59. | |
reconcile the fact there are 172 Labour MPs who do not hold that | :36:00. | :36:08. | |
position? How will you reconcile the official position of the Labour | :36:09. | :36:15. | |
Party that we are a multilateralist, and the countries is a whole | :36:16. | :36:19. | |
believes on that nuclear deterrent? And on that one single issue we may | :36:20. | :36:23. | |
well lose all the other good things the Labour Party could potentially | :36:24. | :36:39. | |
achieve in this country. Thank you for the question. We are undertaking | :36:40. | :36:44. | |
a review of defence policy. The Defence Secretary has it in his | :36:45. | :36:47. | |
hands to present a report which will come together on issues of future | :36:48. | :36:54. | |
defence strategy in all aspects, not just the nuclear aspect. My view is | :36:55. | :37:00. | |
that we should fulfil our obligations under the treaty. We are | :37:01. | :37:11. | |
one of only five declared nuclear weapons states. There are all made | :37:12. | :37:16. | |
three other states that are known to have nuclear weapons. 187 countries | :37:17. | :37:20. | |
don't have them, don't want them and want to live in a nuclear free | :37:21. | :37:30. | |
world. There is a huge movement around the world which says security | :37:31. | :37:35. | |
comes about when you deal with inequality, with injustice, you deal | :37:36. | :37:40. | |
with insecurity and the refugee crisis. What Park could nuclear | :37:41. | :37:49. | |
weapons play in all of that? Good morning. We have a Labour leadership | :37:50. | :37:53. | |
programme this morning featuring Owen Smith and the incumbent Jeremy | :37:54. | :38:00. | |
Corbyn. Some messages before we get more questions. This e-mail from | :38:01. | :38:06. | |
Paul, are Jeremy Corbyn and Owen Smith the best the Labour Party can | :38:07. | :38:12. | |
do? Neither have credible policies and the Conservatives must be | :38:13. | :38:16. | |
jumping with joy. Another e-mail, Jeremy Corbyn has spent a lot of his | :38:17. | :38:25. | |
parliamentary career voting against the party whip. Why should he expect | :38:26. | :38:35. | |
party members to get behind him? I voted on Iraq, anti-terrorism | :38:36. | :38:41. | |
legislation, student fees, PFI contracts and some other issues. I | :38:42. | :38:45. | |
fulfilled my role as a backbencher during that. I did not indulge in | :38:46. | :38:51. | |
abuse of anybody. I put forward a credible political view that I | :38:52. | :38:55. | |
believed to be one in tune with a lot of opinion of flavour members | :38:56. | :39:02. | |
and Labour supporters. I recognise there is dissent in any big party. | :39:03. | :39:10. | |
You come together on fundamental issues. How we chased down | :39:11. | :39:15. | |
austerity, housing, health and other issues that we have spoken about | :39:16. | :39:20. | |
this morning. I admire anyone who doesn't know and an deck. I am a | :39:21. | :39:30. | |
notably public appointed by the Archbishop of Canterbury. And the | :39:31. | :39:33. | |
passionate Labour supporter. Brexit, David Cameron and yourself, you try | :39:34. | :39:38. | |
to convince the country we should remain in Europe. The man had the | :39:39. | :39:44. | |
decency to stand down. You didn't. Do you take responsibility that we | :39:45. | :39:49. | |
lost by 2% and you're responsible for that? 4%. If we had two more | :39:50. | :40:04. | |
percent, we would have won. Obviously if more people voted to | :40:05. | :40:07. | |
remain we would have won the referendum and I wish we had. Hang | :40:08. | :40:13. | |
on. Two thirds of all Labour supporters voted to remain. Less | :40:14. | :40:19. | |
than one third of supporters voted to remain. The results were very | :40:20. | :40:28. | |
different in different parts of the country. My constituency voted 70% | :40:29. | :40:38. | |
to remain. Do you take responsibility that you were | :40:39. | :40:42. | |
responsible? I did my best in that campaign. I didn't see you on TV | :40:43. | :40:55. | |
once. Mr Corbyn, the point is I followed the arguments for and | :40:56. | :40:58. | |
against passionately. David Cameron, I am a member of the Labour Party | :40:59. | :41:06. | |
and would not be seeing dead voting for the Tories, but David Cameron | :41:07. | :41:11. | |
came across far more passionately than you ever did. Ever did. The | :41:12. | :41:18. | |
point I was making in the referendum campaign are to leave Europe and you | :41:19. | :41:23. | |
lose workers' rights, consumer rights and environmental protection | :41:24. | :41:27. | |
rights. You end up with the danger of losing market access for British | :41:28. | :41:32. | |
manufacturing industry in Europe. I pointed that out. I also pointed out | :41:33. | :41:36. | |
the had to be changes in the European Union, like the rules on | :41:37. | :41:42. | |
state aid, like the attempt to enforce privatisation of Postal | :41:43. | :41:46. | |
Service and real service and the European Union had to be more | :41:47. | :42:01. | |
responsive to the views across Europe. You said those words, but | :42:02. | :42:05. | |
sometimes it felt like he didn't mean them. I have one or two points | :42:06. | :42:16. | |
to say. Can I ask you to make one so we can get more people in? I will | :42:17. | :42:23. | |
try and be as short as I can. Right, I want to talk about the situation | :42:24. | :42:30. | |
with the MPs. Because I believe that every member of the Labour Party has | :42:31. | :42:34. | |
a right to an equal say in who the leader will be and what the policies | :42:35. | :42:40. | |
will be, irrespective of whether they are MPs are not. I want to | :42:41. | :42:46. | |
emphasise the point a million people went out onto the streets, some said | :42:47. | :42:51. | |
2 million at the start of the Iraq war. Those people were right to. All | :42:52. | :42:59. | |
those Labour MPs who voted for the Iraq war were wrong. Doesn't that | :43:00. | :43:07. | |
say something? Doesn't that mean that ordinary members of the Labour | :43:08. | :43:12. | |
Party need to be part of the decision-making process? Not just | :43:13. | :43:22. | |
fodder for elections. Thank you. I am a 19-year-old Labour member and I | :43:23. | :43:30. | |
support Jeremy Corbyn. For a long time, I supported Brexit. I | :43:31. | :43:33. | |
eventually voted remain and that had nothing to do with Alan Johnson and | :43:34. | :43:38. | |
the tone of the Labour campaign. I think Jeremy struck the town | :43:39. | :43:43. | |
correctly. We should stay in and perform. There is lots of | :43:44. | :43:48. | |
overenthusiastic Europhiles who don't understand that many | :43:49. | :43:52. | |
working-class people in our country voted to leave because they felt | :43:53. | :43:55. | |
disconnected with the establishment. That campaign failed to engage with | :43:56. | :44:01. | |
them. Jeremy's town and the town of other people working in the Europe | :44:02. | :44:06. | |
is possible campaign that got me to change my mind. Owen Smith. I don't | :44:07. | :44:19. | |
blame Jeremy for us walking out of Europe. But I do think it is a | :44:20. | :44:23. | |
desperate mistake for our country. All of the things Jeremy and I want | :44:24. | :44:28. | |
to do will be immeasurably harder by being outside the European Union. | :44:29. | :44:32. | |
Look at the results yesterday. The crucial question is now about the | :44:33. | :44:36. | |
future. Now we are walking out of the European Union at some point. I | :44:37. | :44:39. | |
think the question is for Jeremy and for me, what will we do as leader of | :44:40. | :44:48. | |
this party in the event that David Davis and Liam Fox sell down the | :44:49. | :44:51. | |
river our rights in this country, social protections, environmental | :44:52. | :44:56. | |
protections, the NHS. I am clear, we should reject that and put it back | :44:57. | :45:01. | |
to the British people in a second referendum or a general election. If | :45:02. | :45:11. | |
a government crosses red line is, such as environment protection, | :45:12. | :45:17. | |
consumer protection, market access, those things are crucial. The debate | :45:18. | :45:27. | |
is very fundamental. The Tory party is in a discussion about it, let's | :45:28. | :45:32. | |
put it in a polite form. Are we to become a kind of bargain basement, | :45:33. | :45:38. | |
low-wage, deeply unequal island off the shores of Europe... Can I | :45:39. | :45:45. | |
finish? Instead, we need have a high investment economy, we need to have | :45:46. | :45:54. | |
these things enshrined in UK law. Crucially, there has to be access to | :45:55. | :45:59. | |
the European market for British manufacturing. Neither of you have | :46:00. | :46:04. | |
mentioned freedom of movement of people. There were Labour voters in | :46:05. | :46:09. | |
labour heartlands in the North East of England in particular who voted | :46:10. | :46:13. | |
to leave because they are anxious about that. Neither of you seem to | :46:14. | :46:18. | |
have anything to say to those Labour voters. | :46:19. | :46:24. | |
I acknowledge the concerns and the upset. People voted against for lots | :46:25. | :46:33. | |
of reasons. They felt left behind in communities where they had been no | :46:34. | :46:38. | |
investment, they felt high levels of unemployment and they felt they were | :46:39. | :46:43. | |
getting lower wages. They felt disconnected from you because you | :46:44. | :46:47. | |
are pro increasing levels of net migration and they are not. What I'm | :46:48. | :46:54. | |
saying is there has to be investment in those communities so there is a | :46:55. | :46:57. | |
migrant impact on, partly funded by the EU and partly by the government, | :46:58. | :47:03. | |
the Tories abolished that funding, which would help the problems of | :47:04. | :47:07. | |
education, health and so on, where the funding formula is inadequate | :47:08. | :47:11. | |
and it is this government that is destroying the public services in | :47:12. | :47:17. | |
every major city in this country. We've got about 12 when it's left, I | :47:18. | :47:21. | |
will ask people to be as concise as possible if I may. -- 12 minutes | :47:22. | :47:28. | |
left. On our Facebook page, your chance to ask questions about the | :47:29. | :47:31. | |
leadership debate with our political correspondent Chris Mason, who is | :47:32. | :47:41. | |
getting ready now somewhere. Just search for BBC News on Facebook. | :47:42. | :47:50. | |
More from our audience. I am Catherine, and I am 13, I am worried | :47:51. | :47:56. | |
about my future because I want to get college and I want to go to | :47:57. | :47:59. | |
university but I'm going to be stuck with semi-student fees and the | :48:00. | :48:03. | |
reason I am worried is because my mum got free education, but because | :48:04. | :48:10. | |
I will be in debt when I'm older, it'll affect me even more and more | :48:11. | :48:12. | |
opportunities. Tuition fees, would you scrap them? | :48:13. | :48:34. | |
Yes, he said I hadn't laid out a policy, I have, I said I would scrap | :48:35. | :48:37. | |
them and introduce a graduate tax, that is the fairest way I can see | :48:38. | :48:41. | |
the deal with this issue. We have been warning for a long time that | :48:42. | :48:47. | |
this rise to ?9,000, the cap being taken off that will mean fewer and | :48:48. | :48:50. | |
fewer children from working-class backgrounds in this country going to | :48:51. | :48:56. | |
university. That happened two weeks ago. The first time ever, we have | :48:57. | :49:02. | |
seen a reduction from 66, the 62%, so what we have been warning is | :49:03. | :49:07. | |
coming to pass. My eldest is getting his AF 's results, he wants to go to | :49:08. | :49:10. | |
university but they will be people like us around the country wondering | :49:11. | :49:15. | |
whether it is worth racking up 50 grand in debt if you are going to | :49:16. | :49:18. | |
end up with a low-wage, insecure jobs. Take it back slightly, we have | :49:19. | :49:26. | |
to restore the educational maintenance allowance to encourage | :49:27. | :49:30. | |
young people to remain in school. Ensure that every young person gets | :49:31. | :49:36. | |
the option of a good quality, qualification through an | :49:37. | :49:38. | |
apprenticeship or going to university so we have parity of | :49:39. | :49:42. | |
esteem on the levels of qualification and we have to get rid | :49:43. | :49:47. | |
of the iniquity of ?9,000 a year student fees and the loss of | :49:48. | :49:49. | |
maintenance grants which means these massive debts. Other countries don't | :49:50. | :49:54. | |
do it, they value and invest in education. I will pay for it through | :49:55. | :50:01. | |
increase in corporate taxation. That is how you would pay for the... The | :50:02. | :50:08. | |
graduate tax, I think you could end up meaning that because you have a | :50:09. | :50:11. | |
qualification, I would rather attacks because they are wealthy | :50:12. | :50:14. | |
rather than just because of the qualification. -- attacks deliberate | :50:15. | :50:24. | |
a tax. The increasing corporation tax is going to pay for introducing | :50:25. | :50:29. | |
student grants and reintroducing the educational maintenance allowance, | :50:30. | :50:32. | |
how would you pay for tuition fees? They would also be paid for through | :50:33. | :50:37. | |
increases of taxation at that end, at the moment what we're doing is | :50:38. | :50:42. | |
asking students to fund universities rather than the public to fund | :50:43. | :50:45. | |
universities. I would rather move into the other way around. Do you | :50:46. | :50:50. | |
know which tax you would put up for scrapping tuition fees? It would be | :50:51. | :50:54. | |
largely on levels of corporate taxation. I do want to hear from the | :50:55. | :51:04. | |
audience. My name is the owner I am from Kirkby in Ashfield, I have a | :51:05. | :51:09. | |
question on corporate tax. -- the owner. The corporations have been | :51:10. | :51:15. | |
able to avoid, being clever, enabled them not to pay the levels of tax, | :51:16. | :51:19. | |
they have paid large dividends to their shareholders and less | :51:20. | :51:23. | |
corporation tax. How will you actually make them pay tax without | :51:24. | :51:30. | |
them going, we are leaving! We need jobs but we need investment from | :51:31. | :51:37. | |
them. I would say that we have to do country by country reporting, of | :51:38. | :51:44. | |
each big corporation. So they can't shift their supposed income from a | :51:45. | :51:48. | |
high tax environment to a low tax environment, therefore companies | :51:49. | :51:53. | |
that shift their head offices and claim turnover in Switzerland where | :51:54. | :51:58. | |
in the elegy it is paying a low level, tax should be paid on the | :51:59. | :52:04. | |
place you earn the money and make the money, chasing down tax havens | :52:05. | :52:11. | |
that are often in British Overseas Territories, with these convenient | :52:12. | :52:15. | |
badge companies. I simply said to our media constantly put forward | :52:16. | :52:18. | |
this idea that somehow it is clever to avoid tax, it isn't. That is what | :52:19. | :52:23. | |
you don't get ambulances, don't get a Fire Service, don't get hospital. | :52:24. | :52:34. | |
How would you do this? We had to legislate to make sure that | :52:35. | :52:36. | |
companies pay tax on the profits that they own in this country. I | :52:37. | :52:40. | |
don't think it's any more complicated than that. At the moment | :52:41. | :52:44. | |
were heading towards a 17% corporation rate, half that of | :52:45. | :52:49. | |
America, half that of most of our European neighbours. I don't think | :52:50. | :52:53. | |
it would result in flight of business from this country, think | :52:54. | :52:56. | |
businesses in this country benefit massively from having an educated | :52:57. | :53:01. | |
workforce through public finance, having a healthy workforce | :53:02. | :53:04. | |
throughout public NHS, and I think most businesses in this country | :53:05. | :53:09. | |
would be happy to pay a bit more in order to support our country and we | :53:10. | :53:14. | |
should encourage them to do that. I have been a Labour member for about | :53:15. | :53:18. | |
a year and I want to ask you both about the NHS, he best talk about | :53:19. | :53:21. | |
putting a lot of money into the NHS but I want to ask where it's going | :53:22. | :53:27. | |
to go. -- you both talk. I see the mental health services in this | :53:28. | :53:29. | |
country have been content to degraded by the conservative | :53:30. | :53:33. | |
government, they are getting worse and worse, young people having to | :53:34. | :53:36. | |
wait a year for mental health appointment that could be the | :53:37. | :53:41. | |
difference. I want to ask, how would you make it better, if either of you | :53:42. | :53:47. | |
were Prime Minister? I saw this first hand just a few weeks ago when | :53:48. | :53:52. | |
my brother was admitted to an NHS hospital for a week with an issue | :53:53. | :53:58. | |
around mental health, and I saw what an incredible Cinderella service it | :53:59. | :54:04. | |
is. I would invest. I think very simply, we need to invest an extra | :54:05. | :54:10. | |
4% per annum in the NHS, 60 billion, we were in Wales and I was going to | :54:11. | :54:15. | |
a brand-new mental health hospital in Cardiff, built by the Welsh | :54:16. | :54:18. | |
Labour government, because we are still investing in our NHS in Wales. | :54:19. | :54:23. | |
So the evidence is there, we can invest in mental health, my | :54:24. | :54:27. | |
grandmother is in an NHS hospital even as we speak. We need to see | :54:28. | :54:34. | |
whether money is coming from. We do face a mental health crisis in this | :54:35. | :54:37. | |
country one in four bus will face a crisis within their own lifetime, we | :54:38. | :54:43. | |
can either change our language and approach, and attitudes, so that | :54:44. | :54:45. | |
young people don't suffer in silence and they of talking about it and | :54:46. | :54:49. | |
some sadly even take their own lives as a result. -- and fear. Secondly, | :54:50. | :54:58. | |
absolutely, invest in good quality, immediate, talking therapies and | :54:59. | :55:00. | |
support for those going through a crisis. If you're in the midst of a | :55:01. | :55:05. | |
crisis ended go to your GP and say, I'm going through a mental health | :55:06. | :55:10. | |
crisis, a good GP would do something to you immediately, less effective | :55:11. | :55:15. | |
one would put you on a waiting list, see someone in a month or six weeks. | :55:16. | :55:21. | |
It's got to be there and available and immediate. But as a society, | :55:22. | :55:25. | |
recognise where levels of stress come from, poverty, bad wages, bad | :55:26. | :55:26. | |
housing. You have now heard both men speak | :55:27. | :55:41. | |
for the last couple of hours. Our audience here of Labour supporters, | :55:42. | :55:44. | |
members, voters, who say they may vote Labour in future, thank you for | :55:45. | :55:50. | |
your contributions and Europe respect. We have divided you up, | :55:51. | :55:57. | |
this is the section of people who wanted to come along to see if they | :55:58. | :56:00. | |
could make up their mind. If you think you have reached a conclusion | :56:01. | :56:03. | |
and you are now going to support either Owen Smith or the incumbent, | :56:04. | :56:07. | |
Jeremy Corbyn, could ask you to walk to the relevant section right now. I | :56:08. | :56:13. | |
will describe this for listeners on the radio. | :56:14. | :56:30. | |
Most people in the undecided section... Most people in the and | :56:31. | :56:39. | |
decided section have moved and swelled the ranks of the Jeremy | :56:40. | :56:44. | |
Corbyn supporters. Let's hear why. I have always voted Tory until the | :56:45. | :56:49. | |
last election and I think the policies about child mental issues | :56:50. | :56:56. | |
is massive for myself. I just want to hear what people have moved over | :56:57. | :57:01. | |
here. At the beginning Owen Smith was concerned about his children's | :57:02. | :57:07. | |
GCSE results and he has got an amazing CV but Jeremy Corbyn is | :57:08. | :57:09. | |
concerned about campaigning for everybody in the community. Even | :57:10. | :57:18. | |
though I agree with Owen Smith... About Brexit. I have been really | :57:19. | :57:27. | |
impressed by both candidates in this debate. Both have a lot to offer. | :57:28. | :57:32. | |
It's one thing about leading a movement and a campaign and leading | :57:33. | :57:35. | |
a party or an nation, think they are different issues and I respect | :57:36. | :57:39. | |
Jeremy Corbyn but think my heart is with Owen Smith. | :57:40. | :57:45. | |
Ten seconds, why haven't you made up your mind on what will persuade you? | :57:46. | :57:52. | |
I am still not convinced, I started off unconvinced, both genuine post, | :57:53. | :57:56. | |
I would be happy spend the evening with you in the pub, but I am now | :57:57. | :58:00. | |
pretty much decided that I'm going to from voting. Let's talk further | :58:01. | :58:08. | |
on the subject! Thank you so much, ladies and gentlemen, thank you Owen | :58:09. | :58:10. | |
Smith and thank you, Jeremy Corbyn. The results are announced on | :58:11. | :58:20. | |
September 24. A few weeks to go. Turning into another beautiful day | :58:21. | :58:44. | |
across most parts of the country | :58:45. | :58:46. |