04/10/2016 Victoria Derbyshire

Hello, it's Tuesday, it's 9am, I'm Victoria Derbyshire,

On the programme today, the hidden trauma of being

It is not something you talk about openly. Why did you not want to tell

people? I did not feel normal, as though my body was not capable of

giving birth. I felt ashamed. Of what happened to me. And what I am

living with on a daily basis. It's a taboo subject

which isn't often talked If it's happened to you,

do get in touch. Also on the programme,

opting out of European human rights to protect our troops

from what the Government says One MP says the move is overdue.

The attempt by human rights law to armed conflict presented a

misunderstanding of what we were asking and then -- our men and women

to do. And, a 300% rise in the number

of pupils temporarily excluded Head teachers say it's

because they're better We'll get reaction from parents

of excluded children, Throughout the programme we'll bring

you the latest breaking news, sport and interviews,

and do get in touch today, particularly if you've

experienced a birthing injury. And if you text, you will be charged

at the standard network rate. Hopefully we will talk to you on the

programme later. That's what the Health Secretary

Jeremy Hunt will promise for the NHS in England today,

so that it no longer relies He's expected to say that an extra

?100 million will be set aside to pay for the increase

in medical-school places. And all doctors trained by the NHS

will have to work for the health Our political guru Norman Smith

is in Birmingham at Phil Olsen. Jeremy Hunt has been at

loggerheads with junior doctors for months now. Some better news for the

medical community today, with plans to make us self-sufficient in

doctors. In other words, there will be enough British doctors to start

-- staff British hospitals, he says, but not until 2025, ten years away.

He wants to bump up the number of students training to be doctors by

more than a quarter, pumping in an extra ?100 million, so that in time

we will not have to have locums or pay agency doctors, because, his

take is, it is costing the NHS and a lot of money, something like 3

billion goes on paying for foreign agency staff. So part of it is about

saving cash. Part of it is simply responding to the fact that with an

ageing population we are going to need more doctors. This morning the

Prime Minister said she wanted to ensure that there were enough

doctors to meet the demand we are likely to face in the future.

Extra money for the training of doctors, we want to see more British

doctors in the NHS, the NHS is having to ensure that the scam

coming from overseas to ensure we have the numbers we need, and there

are people in the UK Hamburg -- who may want to train but cannot. It is

right that we are doing this, it will mean that we can see more

British doctors in the NHS. There is another reason why we need

to train more doctors. There are not enough doctors to go around in the

world. The World Health Organisation says there is a 2 million shortage

of doctors around the world. There is the issue that to make up the

shortfall we tend to recruit from developing countries, and that has a

significant impact on the sort of health provision they can divide. It

is not just about trying to ensure we have enough, it is trying to

ensure we do not drain developing countries of the sort of few medical

staff they have. More from Norman later.

Joanna is in the BBC Newsroom with a summary

This programme has been given exclusive access to a new project

which aims to cut the number of women severely injured

It's the first time doctors and midwives have worked together

They've come up with a number of techniques to help prevent

injuries, including serious tears, that can lead to

The project will be trialled in more than a dozen hospitals from January.

Stay with us for our special report on the scheme and the stories

of some of the women affected in just a couple of minutes' time.

The British Armed Forces are to be given more

protection from legal claims, with the Government saying it

will opt out of parts of the European Convention

on Human Rights during future conflicts.

The Defence Secretary Michael Fallon says that the move will

save millions of pounds on legal fees.

UK soldiers fighting overseas are subject to international law,

including the European Convention on Human Rights.

And cases brought against British troops by foreign detainees

or the relatives of people injured or killed can be heard in UK courts,

to the frustration of many senior military figures and politicians.

Since 2004, the Ministry of Defence has spent over

?100 million on investigations, inquiries and compensation

relating to the conduct of British troops in Iraq.

The Government says false claims by people who say

their European Convention rights have been breached have driven

much of the litigation, causing considerable distress

to serving and former members of the armed forces.

The first part of rebuilding relationships in the country

between the military and their political masters,

I think the sort of attempt to apply European human-rights law to armed

conflict represented a fundamental misunderstanding of what we were

In their 2015 election manifesto, the Conservatives said

they would act on the issue, and today ministers have pledged

to exempt the UK from two clauses of the European

This would apply to future conflicts, and the Defence

Secretary Michael Fallon said the change would enable

troops to confidently take decisions on the battlefield.

But the Government's former attorney-general is not convinced

the change will make a big difference.

It's a perfectly sensible move, if it's used sparingly

It will certainly, I think, help a little.

But I don't think one should expect that somehow, by doing this,

all claims against British military personnel are going to evaporate,

because I'm afraid that won't happen.

Ministers insist UK troops will still be subject to other

articles of the convention, including a prohibition on torture,

as well as UK law and the Geneva conventions.

Russia has rebuffed the latest attempt at the UN to impose

a new ceasefire to end the fighting in the Syrian city of Aleppo.

The United States broke off discussions with Moscow last night,

saying everyone's patience had run out.

The US Presidential candidate Donald Trump has responded

to the publication of tax documents in the New York Times.

The paper said he'd declared business losses of more

than $900 million in 1995, which may have enabled him

to legally avoid paying tax for nearly 18 years.

Mr Trump told a rally in Colorado that as a businessman he has

a responsibility to pay as little tax as legally possible.

Police on the Greek island of Kos searching for Ben Needham say

they've now got permission to knock down part of a farmhouse close to

A specialist team has begun a ninth day of excavations.

The building is a modern extension built since his disappearance,

and they want to dig underneath to make sure Ben

The number of pupils excluded from schools in some parts

of England has risen by more than 300% in three years.

Persistent disruptive behaviour accounted for the lion's share,

while more than 8,000 pupils were excluded for drug

and alcohol offences, and more than 2,000 related

The biggest increases were seen in Middlesbrough,

Some councils said the increase reflected a greater willingness

Police in Japan are investigating if a serial killer has poisoned dozens

of patients in a hospital in Yokohama. Two patients died after

detergent was injected into their intravenous drips. They are now

investigating more than 40 other deaths at the hospital, which may

also be suspicious. That's a summary of the latest BBC

News, more at 9:30am. We will look at injuries during

childbirth in the next the minutes. Megan says, I had a normal delivery

with an episiotomy four weeks ago. Congratulations. The midwife could

not stop the bleeding, so a doctor finished the job, this took two

hours of stitching. Within five days the stitches had dissolved and the

wind was gaping. I am so worried I will never be able to walk or swim

without pain or risk of infection again. Rachel says, I suffered a

fourth degree tear, the worst you can have, when giving birth to my

son last year. No family history of issues. A natural water birth in a

birthing centre. I had to have a cut but I believe I tour because of the

use of forceps, and my son having a larger than average head. I had to

have a spinal block and two hours of surgery to repair the tower, which

was not ideal, after having my baby. My husband was left alone with him,

thinking I would be gone for half an hour, worried about what had

happened. Thankfully, all went well, our baby best Fred Pring it leak,

and I have been lucky not to have any incontinence, pain or any

ongoing issues so far. The midwife discussed the potential for me to be

doubly incontinent and suffer ongoing pain. I was so scared that I

would wearing nappies at the age of 33. More on that in the next few

minutes, do get in touch. And if you text, you will be charged

at the standard network rate. So, has the boxer Tyson Fury

retired or hasn't he? He sent some pretty

extraordinary tweets yesterday? He has been quite vocal on social

media in the last few days, he initially said that boxing is the

saddest thing he has ever taken part in and he announced his retirement

via Twitter, only to reverse the decision just three hours later. It

is hard to say what is going on with him. People close to him seem to be

worried, Billy Joe Saunders, somebody who has known him a long

time, says he is at the lowest he has ever seen him, and adds that if

boxing is taken away from him, his life is over. To give you some

background, he has just pulled out of his rematch with Wladimir

Klitschko for a second time, he says he was suffering with mental health

issues. This is the latest in a long line of controversies from him, who

also faces an anti-doping hearing next month for an alleged drugs

violation. An interesting proposal from Fifa

president Gianni Infantino, he's looking to expand the World Cup

to 48 teams. He said when he was going for

election that he wants to do it, but now it is even more teams than he

had suggested previously. He wants to develop football around the

world, he is proposing that 48 teams should be included will stop instead

of the 32 currently. What makes this interesting, 16 of them would be

eliminated before the group stages have even started, in a knockout

round. You could have teams and fans travelling across the globe to

represent their countries in the biggest football event in the world,

playing one match, and then going home. It is a possibility at this

stage. A final decision will be made in January.

And it's a big day for the future of tennis star

She will find out today if her doping ban will be overturned by the

Court of Arbitration for Sport. She tested positive for the banned

substance Melburnians in March. She said she has been taking for health

reasons since 2006 and was not using it to improve her performance. The

International Tennis Federation band have two years, which she appealed.

We expect a decision at 2pm. Before that, I will have the headlines, at

9:30am. The first film we're about to bring

you this morning is on a subject that isn't often talked about,

never mind at this time of day. We're going to give some frank

details and talk openly about injuries that women can get

during childbirth, so if you'd rather not watch, or you've got

children in the room, you may want to turn away

for the next 15 minutes or so. Childbirth can be a daunting

experience for most expectant mothers, but for some it can

lead to life-changing Often, women don't

share their experiences. They may find their symptoms

embarrassing, or think what they're going through is normal

after giving birth. It's a topic some in the medical

profession say has been We've spoken to women have been let

down by poor diagnoses, patchy treatment and an unwillingness

to talk about the issue. In some cases it's prevented them

from getting the help they needed And if you're expecting right now,

it's worth pointing out severe tears Only about 6% of women

are affected by them. But when they do happen,

they can be devastating. Doctors and midwives are now working

together to see if they can reduce the number of these injuries,

and this programme has been given Experts agree birth injuries need

to be recognised for the huge physical impact they can

have on women's lives. Another warning that this report

by Jean Mackenzie contains some details and pictures which you may

find distressing and may not want Basically, I tore from the vagina,

where the baby comes out, straight First of all I started having

problems with my bladder and it was a constant need to go

to the toilet. 85% of women suffer some

degree of perineal tear I didn't consider it to be

a traumatic experience because my baby was

born at the end of it. But actually, when you do think

about it, it was really traumatic. The advice I was getting was this

will get better and you will heal and that wasn't what

was happening to me. In some cases, tearing can lead

to long-term complications. It can lead to

relationship break-ups. Quite often they may leave their job

because they're so embarrassed. These conditions affect

more women than we know. Injuries are sometimes missed

and often women suffer in silence. It's not something that

you talk about openly. Was it because my body wasn't

capable of giving birth? Of what happened to me

and what I'm living Six years since Debbie gave birth

to her son Kaiden and she's lost count of how many hospital

appointments she's had. I tore, basically,

from front to back. You know, there's a small area

between your back passage and your vagina and that

was quite badly torn, So, yeah, I went for emergency

surgery to try to repair that, but when we got to emergency

surgery, it seemed it Surgeons repaired the tear,

but Debbie was left with a small hole between the wall

of her vagina and her bowel. I was passing wind uncontrollably

through the vagina and every the time I went to the toilet

there would be faeces I was constantly in the bath,

constantly washing, causing A number of attempts

were made to repair it, but none successful,

so Debbie was fitted I have two consider

it wherever I go. If I leave the house I need

to take spare clothes. I have to scan the place

for the nearest toilet. For example, I was shopping in Asda,

standing in the queue and I just went and the bag came apart

from the side and I could feel it leaking and I could smell it,

so you know, I kind of had to run and drag Kaiden kicking

and screaming behind me because he didn't really understand

what the urgency was. And that's happened when I have

took him to school, it happened So, yeah, it affects everything

you're doing really. What was it like dealing with this

injury whilst raising a newborn baby It's overwhelming as it is,

and then when you've also got a stoma back to look after,

you're changing stoma bags in between nappies and bottles,

yeah, it was exhausting. Debbie's tear was classed

as a fourth degree tear, Not all tears will lead

to complications. In this perineal model,

you can see the vagina When the vaginal skin is torn,

it is called a first degree tear. When the underlying muscles

are torn, it is called And when the anal sphincter muscles

are torn, it's called And when the skin lining the back

passage is torn, it is called I suffered a third degree perineal

tear when I gave birth. I have a degree of bowel

incontinence. I don't have any sensation in my

bladder and I have nerve damage, I remember doing my first walk

with the pram and I was able to walk for ten minutes and I remember

sitting down on the curb for ten minutes and I remember

sitting down on the kerb and saying to my mum,

I can't actually walk any further, And she just said, that's fine,

we'll turn round and we'll walk and we'll go back home,

but that's a really clear memory for me because it was about four

weeks out then and I thought, I should be able to walk for 20

minutes with the pram. Over the next three months

Jenny's symptoms got worse. Because the tear had

damaged her nerves, she now has no I have to wear a pad all the time

and it's the... It's the psychological distress

of constantly feeling It distresses me every

time I go the toilet. It's a daily dread of just having

basic bodily functions, which over time really starts

to take its toll on your coping strategies really

and your mental health. It's obviously really difficult

in an intimate relationship to deal Recent research found the amount

of women suffering serious third and fourth degree tears had tripled

over the last decade from 2% to 6%. Women are becoming heavier,

babies are becoming heavier and women are delaying their first

pregnancy until they are much older. These are all risk factors that

actually increase the rate of tears. Diagnosing these injuries

quickly and repairing them It can make the difference

between developing a complication So the beginning of the tear

so you want to go a centimetre Make sure that you go as deep

as possible because if you don't go deep, you might end up with air,

a pocket and that can Adelaide is a specialist

midwife and concerned that mistakes were being made,

she set up this course to teach How do you think training

is at the moment for midwives? It's quite patchy,

so it's not standardised. If ten women are going

to have a baby and eight of them or nine of them are likely

to have a trauma, then we need to have mandatory

training across the board. How do you feel when you have

to repair these injuries? You've got another woman waiting

for a bed and you do Do you feel that there needs to be

more training for this? Yeah, I wouldn't say

the training is very good. You have to pay for

courses like this. Within the trust we have a mandatory

study day, where suturing It's not something that's

taught very well by you're How does that make

you feel when you're I'll be afraid of making

a mistake, or getting a bad Can you see I'm holding this

so I can have tension How important is it to get

this right for women? I can't emphasise enough

because if we don't get this right, it means it's affecting women's

general way of living. For example, if they are

in excruciating pain, that might lead to

relationship breakdown. You might want to shorten that

a bit so it's not too... These injuries affect

more women than we know Either they are too embarrassed

to seek help or they're unsure their symptoms are a normal

consequence of giving birth. And too often when they do

seek help, the concerns I was being told that this

was normal after a baby. I was told at one point,

there's more to you They were the exact words,

that it was all in my head. What did you think when you were

hearing these things and you knew You start to think, well,

is it all in my head? You walk out of the appointment

and you try and wish it away and do try and pretend it's not them,

and other sleep you wake up the next I just think, were my going to go

to get help for this The stoma bag takes up

a lot of my time and he's If he needs my attention,

I was in the toilet or the shower and he has lashed out and hit out,

so we do have therapy sessions It's not that mummy doesn't

love him, sometimes my attention has For both women their injuries

have been life changing. Debbie is still dealing

with depression. My confidence is very low.

I used to be quite out there. I'd be the first one you heard

walking through the door. I wouldn't say it's changed my

personality completely, my personality is still there,

but confidence... When I think confidence,

you need confidence to do your job. The reality of it is

I don't do my job properly Confidence is putting on some

clothes and walking out Debbie's relationship with Kaiden's

father ended a year after his birth. For Jenny, who was a single mum,

postnatal depression hit hard and her son now lives

with his father. I didn't feel I had anything left

in me to love or to mother. I just felt so devastated

by what had happened to me. The trauma of it all wrapped up

in a parcel was just overwhelming. And I felt so angry that

it'd happened to me and that I couldn't mother

in the way that I wanted to and be the person that I was

before I had Thomas. It had changed my sense of self

and it had just shot With such devastating consequences,

the question now being asked is can anything be done to stop these

injuries from happening? For the last couple of years a team

here at Croydon Hospital has been working to try and reduce the number

of these injuries and I'm here to find out what they've

learned so far. Communication with the woman

is vitally important so that she doesn't push

as the baby's head comes out, but actually pants to prevent

the head from popping out. Can you just demonstrate to me this

new technique that you've developed. So the technique essentially

consists of placing three fingers firmly on the perineum,

then the thumb and the forefinger Then as the baby's head comes out,

the other hand is used to prevent the head from coming

out with great force. You continue to support the perineum

as the shoulders come out because tears can also

occur as the shoulders So what difference have you seen

since you've been doing this There has been a reduction in severe

third and fourth degree When you do the manual

perineum protection, you are actually preventing

the weakest point of This is one of a number

of new techniques which doctors and They will be piloted in 60

hospitals from January. For now though, everyone agrees

there must be more awareness Women need to be told more

about what can go wrong during birth It is something that we need to talk

to women about in I think it's a subject that's not

broached very frequently. Definitely, they need

to have the option and understand Women need to understand

that there can be consequences They need to be less

embarrassed to talk about this and as health care professionals,

we need to be less embarrassed and it's really hard to think that

if I would've just had a bit more knowledge about birth,

perhaps been given a bit more control, how different

things could have been. There is more on the website. It is

the fourth most read right now. That film by Jean MacKenzie

and as she said the kind of birth tears featured in that report

are rare - about 6% of women are affected -

but when it does happen This text says, I was severely torn,

it has ruined my marriage. This tweet says, I had a fourth degree

tear nine weeks ago. I am very lucky that I have recovered, but I can't

have a natural birth again. On Facebook, I had my baby in May, I

tour really badly, it has ruined the first few months for me, that I am

trying to make the most of it. My hospital appointment is on Thursday,

five months after the baby was born. Who knows when they will finally

sorted. This text, I had a normal birth, but relatively long Labour of

36 hours, I tour so badly I severed an artery and lost almost two and

half litres of blood. I was not given a transfusion and therefore

feinted whenever I needed to get up. My milk did not come in for over a

week as my body was in shock and I could not have intercourse for over

18 months. This e-mail, I have had four children I have suffered

terrible back and pelvic pain ever since I had my last little boy, who

is now two. I go back and forward to the doctors but I am just prescribed

painkillers. I have a pain before going to the loo, which feels I am

giving birth again, I don't feel I am getting enough help. We'll talk

more about this. After 10am, we'll be talking

to an obstetrician and a midwife about what can be done to reduce

the number of injuries. Hopefully, we will talk to some of

you before the end of the programme. A flagship Government programme

to support offenders when they leave jail has been

heavily criticised by inspectors. We'll be speaking to a woman

whose son was killed A 300% rise in the number

of pupils excluded from some We'll get reaction from parents of

excluded children and from teachers. Joanna is in the BBC Newsroom

with a summary of today's news. Jeremy Hunt were outline plans so

that the NHS in England no longer relies on overseas doctors. People

tell the party conference it will be achieved through new funding to

train an extra 1500. As a year. The doctors union says it falls far

short of what is required. The Prime Minister has told the BBC that extra

dish boxes are vital to the future of the NHS.

We want to see more British doctors in the NHS, we want to Mitchell that

doctors can come overseas to ensure we have the numbers we need, and

there are people in the UK who may want to train but who cannot because

of the limits there have been on the numbers. It is right that we are

doing this, it will mean we will see more British doctors in the NHS.

This programme has been given exclusive access to a new project

which aims to cut the number of women severely injured

It's the first time doctors and midwives have

worked together to improve care in this area.

They've come up with a number of techniques to help prevent

injuries, including serious tears, that can lead

The project will be trialled in more than a dozen hospitals from January.

The Government is to unveil a legal measure it says will protect UK

The change in policy, to be announced at the Conservative

conference, would mean parts of the European Convention

on Human Rights could be suspended during future conflicts.

The Defence Secretary Michael Fallon said the legal system

The most powerful hurricane in the Caribbean for almost ten

years will reach Haiti in the next few hours.

Hurricane Matthew is sweeping north through the region. Up to 40 inches

of rain could fall. There is a warning of life-threatening

flashlights as well as in the neighbouring Dominican Republic.

That's a summary of the latest BBC News, more at 10am.

Friends of Tyson Fury have expressed concern for his mental

health after appearing to announce his retirement

via social media, only to reverse the decision three hours later.

World middleweight champion Billy Joe Saunders says

Fury's life will be over if boxing is taken away from him.

Fury has recently pulled out of his rematch with Wladimir Klitschko

for a second time, and faces an anti-doping hearing next month

Fifa President Gianni Infantino says he would like to see the World Cup

expanded to 48 teams, up from the current 32.

A final decision is likely in January.

Five-times grand-slam champion Maria Sharapova will find out this

afternoon if the Court of Arbitration for Sport

have upheld her appeal against a two-year ban for doping.

And Hull forward Danny Houghton last night won rugby league's

Man of Steel award, for the season's best player.

Houghton, whose last-minute tackle helped clinch the Challenge Cup

final for Hull against Warrington, beat his club captain

Thank you for sending your comments about the injuries you have

experienced during childbirth. It is a gritty subject, but quite a lot of

you are really pleased we are talking about it. This says, such an

important subject because it has a huge impact on women's lives, and

this e-mail, thank you for covering this, hearing people who have gone

through the same thing as me make me feel less alone. I suffered a fourth

degree tear after a natural birth and I have a temporary colostomy as

a result. Keep them coming in. We will talk more after 10am.

A Government programme to support offenders leaving jail after a few

Inspectors say it's failing to find jobs for former inmates

In one case, a registered sex offender disappeared

after being released without anywhere to live.

A Radio 4 documentary this evening will report on concerns that

a system to make us all safer could actually be putting

Melanie Abbott is the reporter with File On 4.

First of all, Melanie, just run us through the changes that

There's a new national probation service for mainly

The medium and low-risk are dealt with by what are called

new community rehabilitation companies covering 21 areas

of England and Wales, run by private providers.

The private sector was supposed to bring in lots of new innovative

ideas like mentors for newly-released prisoners.

It says the sides are failing to communicate properly.

Today's report finds a lot of what was promised

And past reports have criticised services for women offenders.

And found some of these companies are too busy managing the changes

to get down to the nitty gritty work of working with offenders.

So what have you uncovered during the course of

We've spoken to probation officers who have described the system

as being ripped apart, with the two sides

They reported problems assessing the level of risk of offenders

and with transferring people between the national service

and the private companies if the level of risk changes.

Most of the cases, around 70%, were supposed to go to the community

rehabilitation companies, with the rest dealt

But the probation union NAPO claims it is more like 50/50.

So they say the national service is overloaded with

We've looked at a couple of cases where offenders have gone

on to commit serious crimes like murder, and it's been found

risk assessments haven't been completed fully and staff handling

People can hear mortar night on BBC Radio 4 at 8pm.

We can speak now to Nadine and Richard Marshall.

Their 18-year-old son Conner was killed last year by a man

And the first you knew was when two police officers knocked

Yes, it was the Sunday of my birthday. He had been out overnight

and was due to come home that morning for Sunday lunch. The door

went, I was expecting Conner, and it was police officers, unfortunately.

That is when the nightmare started. When you saw him at the hospital,

tell our audience how he was. He was unrecognisable. It was not

Conner that we knew. His head was in a case. He was so badly beaten, his

eye socket had been broken, there work train marks on his face, his

body was covered in marks where he had been beaten, his spleen had been

split, but we did not know the intensity of the internal injuries

for a few hours. Then they brought him past us, we did not know who it

was. His face was so swollen and bloody. That is the image that I am

left with. You have given us permission to show our audience some

of those images. I should let people know they are distressing. If people

want to look away, they can do. I don't know how you cope with this.

You bring a child into the world, you get them through primary school,

you get them to adult would, and something like this happens. We are

just living day by day. Staying together as a family. Try to get

through it day by day. What did you subsequently find out

about David Braddon, Conner's killer, and his

previous criminal history? We were told at the sentence trial

that there had been incidents, but we were not told how many or what

they were for. Then it was two months after the sentencing, in

August, we had a letter from the probation services, which is a

generic letter, it gets sent out, introducing our probation officer,

who would be almost like a liaison officer, and there was just one

sentence at the bottom that said that because the offender was being

managed by probation services, a serious case review would have to

take place. That was the first we knew about it. As you learned more,

what did you understand by supervision, in what way was he

meant to be managed? He was supposedly being managed under two

separate community orders, which meant there were various criteria

that he would have had to have fulfilled, he would have had to have

gone to so many alcohol and drugs sessions, met with his offender

manager, and complied with a curfew, which he did, but he missed lots of

appointments, and they were not chased up. The action was not

implemented that was supposed to be prevented if payments were missed.

What did you learn about his previous criminal history? We

learned a lot, but only from having the full report. You had to push for

that. Incredibly hard. We know now that he had previous history for

drug-taking, alcohol abuse, domestic violence, animal cruelty. He had

already had a conviction for assault against a police officer. There was

a long line of escalating violence and drug-taking that went back. He

was 27, he was not 15 or 16. He was known to the services, and families

were involved with the social service aspect of it as well.

He was being monitored by staff at the new community rehabilitation

We approached the Wales CRC for a statement.

They said, "Conner's death was not predictable or preventable."

It makes my blood boil. It is the sentence that we keep being told, it

is almost like a standard procedure, they have to say that, but with the

report that we have, the evidence is there that the procedures were not

followed, and there was an awful lot of missed opportunities to rein him

in and implement the breach conditions and they were never

taken. They also said, "After thoroughly

reviewing the case, we have strengthened our partnership working

between offender managers and intervention providers,

ensuring enhanced joint working between agencies to support

consistent risk management." That is not even in English, but I

know what they are saying. That is no consolation to you whatsoever?

None whatsoever, it has taken the murder of Conner for them to

recognise that there are genuine faults, and that the system is not

fit for purpose. Unfortunately for us, we are the people that have

highlighted it, but we are not the only people. There are several SFOs

that are generated, that will tell us there are a lot of problems not

being dealt with appropriately, action is not being implement it.

So it could happen again? It will happen again which is completely

unacceptable. They're not fit for purpose. As was mentioned the

risking categories are haphazard. The structure of the staff is

inconsistent. It is down to staff sort of training. The implementation

of paperwork isn't chased up. There is just, it is an overworked system

which is just crashing and it is pitiful that we've had to go to the

length that we have and we will have to continue to go to the length that

we have to try and bring some accountability and answers. Can I

thank you both very much for coming on the programme and telling us

about your son and what happened. Thank you very much, I really

appreciate it. Justice Minister Sam Gyimah says,

"We are carrying out a comprehensive review of the probation service

to improve outcomes There is more on that story

on BBC Radio 4 at 8pm this evening. It's a taboo subject

which isn't often talked about, We'll be looking into the hidden

trauma of being injured Some comments from you. Thank you

very much for these. Carey says, "Such an important subject on your

programme today. Not enough information, help, support for women

suffering from birth injuries." Terrence said, "I had a tear three

whilst giving birth to my daughter. I had no painkillers or any

medicine. She arrived quickly with her leg around her neck and I would

have given my life to get her." Thank you.

The number of pupils excluded from some schools in England has

risen by more than 300% in three years.

In total, over the last year there were about 5,800 permanent

exclusions at schools in England and around 302,980 fixed term

In some places like Barnsley and Middlesborough the figures

for temporary exclusions have jumped by over 300% in three years.

Headteachers say it shows a greater willingness

Over the same period, the number of permanent and temporary

exclusions in Scottish and Welsh schools has fallen.

We can talk now to Zoe Salt, whose ten year-old autistic son Joe

has been excluded from school nine times.

Alison Ryan from the Association of Teachers

and Lecturers and Julian Lee who is the Head Teacher

of Hawkswood Group, a pupil referral unit that helps children stay

Hello. Hello Joe, how are you? Hi. Thank you for coming on your

programme. Zoe, thank you for talking to us. Tell us when Joe was

first excluded? He was four-and-a-half when he was first

excluded and I think it was within the first two weeks that he started

school he was excluded on a temporary basis sort of for

afternoons to start with. What was the reason? Behaviour because he

wasn't, we used to have statements at that time, they've changed now,

but he wasn't statemented yet and they didn't have the staff to cope

with his behaviour. His behaviour was down to his autism, he couldn't

cope with the classroom environment. So yeah, he was excluded for

afternoons and I think for three days and then a week and then, you

know, it was just on and off really for quite a long time and then the

permanent exclusion came when he was five. Five, gosh, still so young.

Yeah. Joe, can I ask you, what was it like being excluded? I was really

sad and lonely. Was it? Yeah. So over a period of years, you've

tried to either home school or get into another school. Tell us what

impact it has on a family's life when a child is excluded? Well, it

nearly destroyed our family in all honestly, it was horrific. I home

schooled for a few months. We went to a different school and to be

fair, he was only excluded once at that school. So he managed to finish

his infant years in a mainstream school, but then it was decided for

the health of our family, the mental health of our family that he was

best to go into a specialist school where we knew he wasn't going to get

sent home and we weren't going to get a phone call after 15 minutes to

say, "Can you come and get him?" Could you have initiated that

earlier? Possibly, but the problem with Joe and children much like him,

is that Joe doesn't really need to be in a specialist school for his

academic progress. In fact, he is going to be moved back into

mainstream now because his academic progress is far too good for where

he's at. So yes, we could have done it earlier, but there was no need

for us to do it atle. When you said his academic side is good. So it is

the behaviour side that needs the extra support or the help? It is

emotional and social development. OK. That he has problems with. It's

not bad behaviour. It is autism. It's sensory processing disorder.

Yes. And that's, but from other parents point of view whose kids are

in the same class as Joe, it is bad behaviour? Of course. Of course,

because there isn't enough education around to let people know. A lot of

people are only familiar with one type of autism, the non verbal nice

type of autism, but Joe isn't that nice quiet type of autistic child.

Alison, what do you make of figures, this rise in both temporary and

permanent exclusions? I think in some ways, they're shocking figure

ins a way, but at the same time they are generally exclusions have gone

down over a longer period of time, but they're beginning to turn back

up. But I think picking up on what Zoe said about, you know, what

behaviour looks like. Behaviour is often telling us something, whatever

kind of behaviour it is and often like SEN, we don't have the

resources in schools, aren't as much as they should be, special

educational needs to really to have staff understand what is happening,

to understand how to meet them, we have teacher shortages, you know,

and children and young people with special educational needs that are,

you know, not fully met are far more likely to be excluded, up to seven

times more likely than children without SEN. I accept those figures,

but it is not just children with special educational needs who are

being excluded. What are the other reasons? Well, there are a range of

reasons, but we have to look at also children in lower income households.

In poverty, up to four times more likely, those on free school meals

are four times more likely to be ex-included and when we know there

is 3.9 million children in poverty in the UK, that's 500,000 more in

2010, you can the challenges that schools are fasing especially when

we have teacher shortages, we have cuts to local services that really

the support that's there for children and young people isn't what

it should be and my members in school would be, you know, they

want, you know, teachers are in the profession to make a difference to

work with children and young people. They share the frustration of

families, of young people and it is a tragedy when children get

permanently excluded. There is no doubt about that. What impact can it

have on a child who is permanently excluded from a mainstream school?

It can be catastrophic. Children who are permanently excluded from

mainstream schools or special schools, suffer a history thereafter

of educational failure. It is often the case that these youngsters will

go on failing in education, continue to fail at post 16 once they have

left school and then become a significant burden on society when

perhaps some of them enter the Criminal Justice System or indeed

simply don't become members of a constructive society. I mean that's

the worst case scenario for some permanently excluded youngsters who

move back into mainstream schools. The chances are then improved

significantly. So when you take children out of mainstream because

they are on the verge of being excluded and you try and work with

them, intervene early, what is it you're doing with them? What is it

that you're doing in your institutions? We focus on teaching

and learning first and fore most. Because it is smaller class, is that

the difference? Smaller class. Focus on teaching and learning and make

sure there is a strong focus on nurturing particularly for

youngsters that is from the ages of four to 11. We nurture groups of

these young people. Also to focus on their therapeutic needs. So we have

a very... What does that mean? Give me an example. We employ therapists

from our local clinic. We don't get that allocation of staffing without

having to pay for it. We have to pay for it ourselves. But we do it

because we think it is necessary. In your experience, is there always an

explanation? Yes, always. About why a child, it is either a medical

condition? Always. It never exists in a vacuum, you see people behaving

on the street, there is a reason behind it. You see children behaving

badly in classrooms, it is because there is a reason behind it. It is

our job to understand what that behaviour means. And then do

something about giving the young person, the child, an opportunity to

correct their behaviour and learn new ways of behaving. Do you accept

this Zoe and Alison, that if you're in a state school with a class of 30

or 31, whatever it maybe, from the teacher's point of view, even with a

Teaching Assistant, you will never be able to give the child who is

playing up for whatever reason, the kind of support and attention that

they might need or can it be done? Well, we know, where schools have

done it and rather like in Julian's case, it is often about good

partnerships between schools, between schools that have their own

special units or alternative provision on site. There is an

element of sharing. Potentially, you know, we have to protect all the

children, that includes the child mainly involved, but it also

includes the other pupil and we have to protect staff. So that has to be

important. It is about safeguarding to an extent. Having said all that,

we know that we can sometimes reach needs a lot more than we possibly do

now if we have good collaboration on the ground. We have proper funding

for the kind of support that Julian mentioned and that we kind of and we

also have the team around the child so it is social services,

healthcare, all getting together to reach particularly the more complex

needs. It is really vital. Thank you very much, Zoe. Thank you,

Joe. Thank you for coming on. Thank you for your time.

"Every child should be able to learn without disruption,

that's why we've given head teachers more powers to tackle

Permanent exclusion is still very rare and should only be

We're going to talk to our Asian Network reporter who's been

hearing from people given away as children to other

Tell us what is happening with Hurricane Matthew, Darren. I want to

take you into the Caribbean first of all. This is Hurricane Matthew. It

is a major hurricane this. It is moving northwards towards Haiti

right now. Moving over the warm waters and it is about to strike

Haiti. A serious situation is developing across the country right

now. We've got around the centre of the hurricane winds of around

145mph. There could be as much as a meter of rain. Add to that, a

significant storm surge. Dangerous seas as well. So coastal flooding.

Now I can understand why some residents don't want to leave their

home because they are worried about things getting stolen, but there may

not be anything to steal once this one has swept through. Now, where is

it going? It is heading northwards and leaving Haiti, it will be

striking eastern parts of Cuba tonight. Then up towards the Bahamas

and possibly by Thursday or Friday very close to Florida this. Is where

we have got more unsrnity. It is a big story this and we will keep an

eye on this over the next few days. Here at home, all we have to worry

about is, the amount of cloud that we've got across the UK. There is

more of it out to the west, but it is thin, high cloud. The breeze is

picking up through today, but there is still sunshine around. Not quite

the wall to wall sunshine that many of us had yesterday, not windy for

Northern Ireland and western parts of Scotland and the low cloud, the

misty weather across the Grampians and the eastern Pennines and east

Wales is lifting. So some good spells of sunshine as we head

through late morning and into the afternoon as well. Temperatures

similar to yesterday, 17 Celsius. Could be allittle bit higher as it

was yesterday awe cross the South East of England. As we head into

this evening, a fine end to the day and overnight, shouldn't get too

cold really because there will be that fairly brisk breeze blowing and

there will be more cloud around as well. I think we have seen the

coldest nights earlier on in the week. These are the temperatures in

the towns and cities. In the countryside, we're looking at the

mid to high single figures. Big battle taking place between weather

fronts trying to push in from the Atlantic and a big blocking area of

high pressure across Scandinavia. That's shaping our weather.

Influencing our weather. There will be a bit more cloud around on

Wednesday, but another dry day. Some sunshine across the South East and

across East Anglia too. Those temperatures lower and turning

cooler I think over the next few days with some more cloud.

Hello it's Tuesday, it's 10am, I'm Victoria Derbyshire,

This morning, the hidden trauma of being injured during childbirth.

It's not something that you talk about openly.

Was it because my body wasn't capable of giving birth?

Of what happened to me and what I'm living with on a daily basis.

We will talk to a midwife and a gynaecologist to see what can be

done. Opting out of European Human rights

to protect our troops from what the government says

are "vexatious" legal cases. Senior Army officer

General Lord Dannatt Because we ask soldiers to do

very difficult things in dangerous circumstances,

you can't apply civilian law that might otherwise be

applicable in a small town outside a bar on the

Thursday evening. Children given away

to other family members. We'll talk to our Asian Network

reporter who's been hearing The Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt

will outline plans today so the NHS in England no longer relies

on overseas doctors. He'll tell the Conservative Party

conference in Birmingham this will be achieved through new funding

to train an extra But the doctors' union

the British Medical Association says it falls far short

of what's required. The Prime Minister has told the BBC

that extra British doctors are vital Extra money going into the training

of doctors, and there is a good reason, we want to see more British

doctors, the NHS is having to ensure that doctors can come in from

overseas to ensure we have the numbers we need, and there are

people here who may want to train as doctors who are not able to, because

of the limits there have been. It is right that we are doing this, it

will mean we will see more British doctors in the NHS.

This programme has been given exclusive access to a new project

which aims to cut the number of women severely injured

It's the first time doctors and midwives have worked together

They've come up with a number of techniques to help prevent

injuries, including serious tears, that can lead to

The project will be trialled in more than a dozen hospitals from January.

The Government is to unveil a legal measure it says will protect UK

The change in policy, to be announced at the Conservative

conference, would mean parts of the European Convention

on Human Rights could be suspended during future conflicts.

The Defence Secretary Michael Fallon said the legal system

The most powerful hurricane in the Caribbean for almost ten

years will reach Haiti in the next few hours.

Hurricane Matthew is sweeping north through the region.

Up to 40 inches of rain could fall in Haiti.

There's a warning of life-threatening flash floods there,

as well as in neighbouring Dominican Republic.

Police on the Greek island of Kos searching for Ben Needham say

they've now got permission to knock down part of a farmhouse

near where the little boy disappeared 25 years ago.

A specialist team has begun a ninth day of excavations.

The building is a modern extension built since his disappearance,

and they want to dig underneath to make sure Ben

The number of pupils excluded from schools in some parts

of England has risen by more than 300% in three years.

Persistent disruptive behaviour accounted for the lion's share,

while more than 8,000 pupils were excluded for drug and alcohol

offences and more than 2,000 related to sexual misconduct.

The biggest increases were seen in Middlesbrough,

Some councils said the increase reflected a greater willingness

The pound hit a 31-year low against the dollar in early trading

on the currency markets, while the Ftse share index rose

The moves come amid renewed speculation and concern

about the economy and Brexit plans, as more details are revealed

at the Conservative conference about the timetable

Police in Japan are investigating whether a serial killer may have

poisoned dozens of elderly patients at a hospital in

So far they have confirmed that two patients have died after

detergent was injected into their intravenous drips.

They are now investigating more than 40 other deaths at the hospital

which they think may also be suspicious.

That's a summary of the latest BBC News, more at 10:30am.

Thank you for your comments on childbirth and some of the traumatic

experiences you have had. Joanna says, I had my first baby nine weeks

ago, I had a third degree tear. Dooming antenatal classes it easy to

Ms and tears were barely mentioned. There is a Tabuk about talking about

them, that has to change, we need to talk more about massage and regular

pelvic floor exercises is prevention. I have healed well and I

had great midwives and physiotherapists helping me after

the birth. There is an excellent NHS app to remind women to do their

pelvic floor exercises. Do get in touch with us

throughout the morning. Stoke City defender Glen Johnson

was celebrating his shock recall to the England squad less than 48

hours ago, now he's out. The 32-year-old is injured and has

been replaced in Gareth Southgate's squad for the qualifiers

against Malta and Slovenia by Burnley's uncapped defender

Michael Keane. He's never far from the headlines,

world heavyweight Yesterday on social media

he announced his retirement, saying that boxing was the saddest

thing he'd ever taken part in, only to reverse that decision

just three hours later. People close to him seem

to be quite worried, fellow world champion

Billy Joe Saunders says Fury And another British world champion,

Ricky Hatton, feels Fury needs help. He can beat whoever in the boxing

ring, he has proved to be the best in the heavyweight division, but

depression, you cannot do it on your own, you need help. It is one of the

-- despite the macho image, go and speak someone, I am not coping very

well, I need help. The Fifa president has proposed that

48 teams should compete in the World Cup. 16 of them would compete in a

knockout round before the group stages Thomas and they could exit

the tournament after one match. Fifa will debate it later this month. A

decision will be made in January. Maria Sharapova, a five-times

Grand Slam winner, will find out today if her doping

ban will be overturned by the Court The Russian tested positive

for the banned substance She said she'd been taking

it for health problems since 2006 and wasn't using it

to improve her performance. The International Tennis Federation

banned her for two years, Andy Murray is playing his first

match in the China Open in Beijing. The world number two is taking

on Italy's Andreas Seppi and has won the first set 6-2 but he's been

broken at the start of the second. Hull forward Danny Houghton last

night won rugby league's Man of Steel award,

for the season's best player. Houghton, whose last-minute tackle

helped clinch the Challenge Cup final for Hull against Warrington,

beat his club captain Rickie Fowler looks like a

gooseberry in this picture, in the middle of all of the kissing in the

American Ryder Cup team, the only single man. But in other pictures he

is drowning himself in Champagne, so I am sure he is not that bothered.

Throughout the programme we've been talking about

It's a taboo subject which isn't often discussed at this time of day

But it is an important one, and one that affects many of you.

Up to 85% of women have some sort of tear during their first vaginal

birth, though the most-severe tears only affect around 6% of women.

Often women don't share their experiences, they may

find their symptoms embarrassing, or think what they're

going through is normal after giving birth.

Doctors and midwives are now working together to see if they can reduce

Experts agree they need to be recognised for the huge physical

impact they can have on women's lives.

This report by Jean Mackenzie contains some details and pictures

Six years since Debbie gave birth to her son Kaiden and she's lost

count of how many hospital appointments she's had.

There's a small area between your back passage

and your vagina and that was quite badly torn, all the way through.

I went for emergency surgery to try and repair that, but when I got

to the emergency surgery, it seems it had cut into my bowel.

Surgeons tried to repair that, but Debbie was left incontinent

and had to be fitted with a colostomy bag.

Everything changes, I have to consider it I go.

If I leave the house, I need to take spare clothes,

I have to scan the place for the nearest toilet.

For example, I was shopping in Asda, standing in the queue and I just

went and the bag came apart from the sides and I

The number of women who suffered a serious tear tripled over the last

Not all will develop complications, but possible symptoms including

These injuries affect more women than we know, because many

Either they are too embarrassed to seek help or they are unsure

whether their symptoms are a normal consequence of giving birth.

Diagnosing these injuries quickly and repairing them

It can make the difference between developing a complication

How do you think training is at the moment for midwives?

If ten women are going to have a baby and eight or nine

of them are likely to have a trauma, then we need to have mandatory

The stoma bag takes up a lot of my time.

If he needs my attention and I'm in the toilet or the shower,

Doctors and midwives are now working together to try

They've developed a number of techniques which appeared

As the baby's head comes out, the other hand is used to prevent

the head from coming out with great force.

These will be piloted in 16 hospitals from January.

But for now, the aim is to raise awareness of these injuries

so women know what to expect and when to seek help.

Women need to understand that there can be consequences

after a vagina delivery, that help is available.

They need to be less embarrassed to talk about this and as health

care officials we need to be less embarrassed about

Let's talk to Carol Sunnucks, who suffered a serious tear eight

years ago that was missed and that has led to major complications,

Dr Alison Wright, vice-president of the Royal College

of Gynaecologists, and Sara Webb, who's a perineal midwife.

And Donna has got in touch with us, she is in Sheffield and is due to

give birth to her second child any day now, is that right? Yes.

Possibly even today! Possibly, hopefully! My gosh!

You had a third degree tear three days ago, so how are you feeling

about the prospect of giving birth again? To be honest, it is always

niggling in the back of your head, and quite often comes to the fore,

and that is all you can think about, will it happen again? What impact is

having that there having new? I have not had any lasting effects, it

ruined the first couple of months with my daughter, though. The first

few weeks of not being able to do anything, to sit up, hold her, go

for walks. They took so long to be able to drive much longer than

friends who have had Caesarean sections and things like that. It

damages your confidence. You suffered a third-degree tear,

which is one of the more-serious tears, but it was missed

at the time. It was missed eight years ago. We

had to go for an assisted delivery. It was getting to the point, so they

decided for an assisted delivery. My son was born, but I was never

examined the way in woman should be examined after giving birth, and

they missed the tear. You had got home from hospital, what effect

wasn't happening on due -- what effect was happening on new? I'm a

late to the girl in the film, the first walk with a pram. I didn't get

my son home until he was three weeks old, it was a big thing for me.

Taking him out, I was maybe five minutes away from home, and my

bowels just moved. I missed myself. That happened every day, sometimes

two or three times a day. I could not go anywhere.

So stressful. And for the first year of my son being born I was bowel

inContinent. So they transferred me from maternity to a surgeon who put

me through numerous amounts of tests to find out what was wrong and they

then discovered a year after my son was born, a year later, it was a

third degree tear I had. So 13 months after having my son I had to

go in and have repair surgery. Goodness me. Sarah, why does no one

talk about this? I think it is just one of those hidden taboos that

happened through years and ages. I can understand why we don't talk

about it. It is not a very sexy topic to want to talk about, but it

is something that's just been hidden away and it takes a lot to get

people and I feel very honoured and proud that you've got the guts and

the people in the video and even your show for putting this out there

and letting people expose the real things that can happen from

childbirth. We have to change that and we need to give information more

information. We can't scare women to death. We have to be careful about

how we inform women otherwise it would panic everyone, but there are

ways of making women know that stitches will happen and also aware

of when they are postnatal, informing them about what is normal

and what's not. Most of the women I see in clinic don't have any

information given to them, they don't know if it feels normal or not

because they don't seek advice. Dr Wright, I think I was saying you

were the head, you are the Vice-President, you maybe the head,

is your profession taking this seriously enough? Yeah, absolutely.

We're really concerned about the rate. The rate of tears appears for

increasing and significantly increasing and because this can have

such dramatic impact on a woman's quality of life, we're really

concerned. I was saying to Carol earlier, credit to her and other

women on your show for coming forward because it is really

difficult to talk about, but we are really committed. We at the Royal

Royal College of Obstetricians and gynaecologists and this is a unique

project with the two colleges are coming together, and we have got

women's representatives and Carol agreed to join that as well, we need

to hear from women about how we can best promote this subject. When you

have your antenatal class, it has to be talked about because it certainly

wasn't when I was having children and when it happens, the profession

has to take it seriously and help that individual. At the Birmingham

Women's Hospital and with help from the University of Birmingham I put a

survey out across the country. I have over 1500 midwives who want

more knowledge and training about perineal trauma. I have surveyed

because what happens when you discharge from hospital is we lose

the women. They go out to the community, they are cared for by the

midwives and the GPs. I have got a survey, which was assisted by the

University of Birmingham that actually shows over 200 GPs want

training and information and that is where I come in and that's where the

Birmingham Women's Hospital come in to do future research into providing

that so the services can improve. We need to improve this part of

postnatal care. I'm determined that we will improve it. Working with the

Royal College of Ob and Gynae is the way we will do that. We were talking

about guidelines and protocols and I know there will be new guidelines

and protocols, there were guidelines and protocols when I had my son.

What should have happened when a doctor decides to carry out a

particular, whether it be a necessary differry, forceps, they

must follow through. You wouldn't send someone to A with chest and

then say, "We're not going to do anything." Mothers need to be looked

after. If the mother isn't looked after, that baby is going to suffer

and so will fathers and the rest and it has totally changed my life

completely and my son, I feel, has missed out on so much. I can't get

up in the morning and say to my son, "Let's go swimming." I can't did

that because I have got to take 12 Imodium the night before to make

sure there won't be an accident in the swimming pool.

Katie e-mails, "A great piece being dealt with sympathetically: I

suffered a big tear. The surgery was successful. I think that's important

to share as well. It can be OK. The worst part was going for a six-week

check-up when everything needed examining again." Louise said, "I

had a massive tear and needed internal and external stitches, but

I had to wait for a doctor. It was the most painful and horrific

experience needing many injections of local anaesthetic, I screamed the

place down. It was more painful than giving birth." Another viewer says,

"I was badly torn. Was left on the bed for four to five hours until

someone came to sew me up. I was unable to go to the loo and I had to

wee on the bed. I'm still difficult to have intercourse. Qthsz The key

is talking about this anti-nately and I know some people are anxious

about talking about it because they don't want to scare women. Women

prefer to know. You need to know what you could be facing. Yes,

definitely. Donna... Go on. Support afterwards. I think that's very

important to have the emotional support. It is not just the physical

support for your body to be able to realise and go through and

understand what's happened to you and possibly why and in my case, I

didn't know why and I still don't know why. But just to be able to

have that support that you can talk to somebody and it is very often it

is not the case, it is not available. I want to wish you all

the best. Good luck with the next birth. Will you let us know what

happens and how you get on? Do you know what you're having? No, a

surprise. Can you surprise us lot when it has happened. Cheers, Donna,

all the best, lots of love. Thank you very much for coming on the

programme. Thank you. Thank you. A legal measure to protect UK troops

from "vexatious" legal claims will be announced

by the government today. It would mean parts

of the European Convention on Human Rights could be suspended

during future conflicts. The Ministry of Defence said it had

spent over ?100 million on Iraq-related investigations,

inquiries and compensation since 2004 and another 600

complaints are being investigated over alleged war

crimes in Afghanistan. They range from ill-treatment

during detention to assault One of the cases being investigated

is reported to include that of a Taliban bomb-maker

who claims his arrest On this programme on Monday we're

looking at the issue in detail. Conservative MP Johnny Mercer,

a former Army captain who served in Helmand province and has

campaigned on the issue, Because we ask soldiers to do very

difficult things in dangerous circumstances you cannot apply

civilian law that might otherwise be applicable in a small town outside a

bar on a Thursday evening. There are different pressures. I'm just so

pleased that we now appear to have got the message across. The Prime

Minister and the Secretary of State for Defence appear for the, the

opiniony seems to have dropped, that this is not correct behaviour. This

is not conducive to high morale amongst the military. It is not

conclusive to military effectiveness.

We can speak to Jonny Mercer, conservative MP, and former

Army captain who served in Helmand province.

Major Judith Webb served in the British army

for nineteen years and was the first woman to command an all-male

field force squadron in the British Army.

And in Lincoln, Major Andrew Sayers, who served in the army for 26 years.

He also works with former veterans who face legal claims.

What do you think? It is a fantastic first step. Nothing personified the

gap between politicians and those who serve in this country at the

moment and trying to apply European Human Rights law on operations. It

demonstrated a fundamental misunderstanding of what we're

asking our people to do. In what way? The scenarios that are involved

in combat operations, you know, we are governed by the law of armed

conflict. We are governed by the Geneva convention, this idea there

is some breakdown is a myth. You cannot go around that country six or

seven years later asking if anyone has got a problem with the military

to come forward and make a claim and you will be supported by UK

taxpayers and it will ruin these soldiers' lives, we are the only

country in the world that has done this. The French der gated it when

it came in. It was a mistake when it came in and I'm pleased the Prime

Minister has taken this step today. You have been talking to various

people for a film that you're making for us. Tell us more. It has been

extremely moving. In this country we're good often as ministers and

Government talking about what we put into this, what we put into veterans

care, looking after people, actually we need to look at this differently

and ask them what it is like going through the system, using veterans

care, what is it like being subject to investigation for so long. Two

soldiers have spoken bravely to me on tape and I think we can see a

clip of one of them now. That day after, I mean, I went through hell.

I couldn't sleep of a night. I was crying. I was sick. You know, I was,

I drank so much, man. I drank a lot. I mean, and most days I didn't want

to wake up and I use to be gutted when my eyes would waken, why

couldn't I just fall asleep and not wake up? I shouldn't have had to

feel that way. I shouldn't have had to come down that road and at night

I tried to take my own life. I remember being in hospital and them

saying to me, you're not well. I was like I'm OK. They said, "You're not.

" No one knew how to deal with me. The place that I went to that time

was worse than any war I ever fought. Very, very upsetting. Tell

us more about that case. Well, it is interesting. This was in the

aftermath of the Iraq war and I think we've heard a lot particularly

recently about the case os that enveloped our men and women in that

process and this particular individual has been caught up in

this investigation where someone drowned and you can see, you know,

he is devastated by it. And like everyone else, you know, we

understand that's somebody's son or daughter, we must investigate why

that happened. But the idea that we continue that process for the rest

of people's lives because some sort of spurious evidence has come

forward. I think it is not acceptable and I'm really pleased

that we're starting, this is the start, of correcting that process.

OK, let's bring in Major Judith Webb. How do you react to this? I

mean, he said it allment unfortunately, I wasn't able to hear

that interview just then, but I totally support the fact that, and

it is not about money, but the fact that British soldiers must feel that

they are protected and can carry out their job without fear of being

sued. Our soldiers are incredibly well trained and of course, they

have to comply with the Geneva convention and any abuse of that

must, of course, be investigated, but the idea that years afterwards,

you know, soldiers have to live with the fact that something can possibly

come out of the woodwork and there are grasping lawyers I'm afraid who

are making money on this. And I think it is a very sensible

decision. Major Andrew says, you served in the

Army for 26 years and you worked with former vets who face claims.

Can you give us examples of the kind of things they're facing? They are

facing endless hounding. What are they alleged to have done? If you

take the example that Johnny Mercer referred to, you have soldiers who

were investigated for the Iraq drowning incident and they were

cleared and exonerated. They then a few years later had to go through an

investigation again and again and as recently as six years they were

fully exonerated and now they are facing further allegations where

they may face murder or manslaughter charges in the UK civil court and

the fact you can never clear yourself and prove your innocence,

if you are a member of the forces, is totally unsatisfactory. Mr

Fallon's decision to make this statement and the Prime Minister is

to be applauded, but where it fails is it doesn't deal with the here and

now, the soldiers who are facing inquiries for their conduct from 40

years ago, but they have been cleared many times already.

Judith Webb, you said Johnny Mercer said, look, there is the Geneva

convention, troops have to follow that, of course, I wonder if this

announcement today sends out the message to troops that pretty much

on the battlefield you can do what you need to do? Of course, it

doesn't. Of course, it doesn't. No, I mean, sorry, are you talking to

me. Yes, go ahead, and then I will ask Andrew? No, our soldiers are

incredibly well trained and it is enforced on them always during their

training about the need to comply with the Geneva convention and if

they abuse that, of course, they get the full force of the law, but they

do, our soldiers are very well trained and they're face with on

occasion life and death, split second decision that is they have to

make and I'm in the saying that any life is worth less than any other

life, you know, our soldiers lives are worth more than others, but our

soldiers have to feel that they can do their job and that they will be

protected. What do you want Michael Fallon to

do regarding the cases that are still ongoing? Would there have

already been ample investigations and evidence to show there was no

justification, they should be stopped. If he does feel that there

is a case to answer, soldiers must face the full rigour of the law. But

they are not being given support by the Ministry of Defence. They often

left without appropriate legal advice, or they have to finance it

themselves. This is quite wrong. They should get the backing of the

Government and the Ministry of Defence, which is sadly not the case

at the moment. Thank you. We look forward to your film next week. We

will bring that full report to you on Monday.

With the news, here's Joanna in the BBC Newsroom.

The Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt will outline plans today so the NHS

in England no longer relies on overseas doctors.

He'll tell the Conservative Party conference in Birmingham this

will be achieved through new funding to train an extra

But the doctors' union the British Medical Association

says it falls far short of what's required.

The Prime Minister has told the BBC that extra British doctors are vital

Extra money going into the training of doctors,

The NHS is having to ensure that doctors can come in from overseas

to ensure we have the numbers we need, and there are people

here who may want to train as doctors who are not

able to, because of the limits there have been.

It is right that we are doing this, it will mean we will see more

This programme has been given exclusive access to a new project

which aims to cut the number of women severely injured

It's the first time doctors and midwives have worked together

They've come up with a number of techniques to help prevent

injuries, including serious tears, that can lead to

The project will be trialled in more than a dozen hospitals from January.

The Government is to unveil new measures it says will protect UK

The change in policy, to be announced at the Conservative

conference, would mean parts of the European Convention

on Human Rights could be suspended during future conflicts.

The Defence Secretary Michael Fallon said the legal system

The most-powerful hurricane in the Caribbean for almost ten

years will reach Haiti in the next few hours.

Hurricane Matthew is sweeping north through the region.

Up to 40 inches of rain could fall in Haiti.

There's a warning of life-threatening flash floods there,

as well as in neighbouring Dominican Republic.

Residents are being advised to do everything to protect lives.

Ched Evans has arrived in court to face a retrial on an accusation of

rape. The former Manchester city and Sheffield United striker is accused

of raping a woman in 2011. He has pleaded not guilty.

That's a summary of the latest news, join me for BBC

Stoke City defender Glen Johnson was celebrating his shock recall

to the England squad less than 48 hours ago, now he's out.

The 32-year-old is injured and has been replaced in Gareth Southgate's

squad for the qualifiers against Malta and Slovenia

by Burnley's uncapped defender Michael Keane.

Fifa president Gianni Infantino says he would like to see the World Cup

expanded to 48 teams, up from the current 32.

A final decision is likely in January.

Andy Murray is on court in the first round of the China Open in Beijing,

World number two Murray took the first set 6-2,

And Hull forward Danny Houghton last night won rugby

league's Man of Steel award for the season's best player.

Houghton, whose last-minute tackle helped clinch the Challenge Cup

final for Hull against Warrington, beat his club captain

That is all be sport now, more across the BBC News channel through

the day. Next, we're going to talk to people

who found out their parents were in fact their aunt and uncle

and the people they thought were relatives were in

fact their parents. It's the subject of an Asian Network

documentary tonight. A few years ago, I adopted my

brother's son when he became I first found out about Raffio

when he was ten months old. Prior to this, I didn't know

I had a nephew. It was my brother called me and said

he was struggling and he needed somebody within the family

to look after his son. And instinctively, I think way

before meeting him, I had already decided this

was something I would like to do. I don't think he fully understands

that I'm not his biological mum, although I have often said to him

that I didn't give birth to you, so it caused questions,

"Where was I born?" Because to me, that's

really where he was born. So I'm hoping he does understand,

to an extent, he still quite young. We have a life-story book, which we

go through, which simplifies Some Asian families who do do

interfamily adoption choose to keep So I'm interested to find out

the impact this has on those children when the truth

finally comes out. There are no actual figures

for how often it happens, because very few go

through the formal adoption process. Asian Network presenter Suzi Mann

adopted her brother's son. Kam Kumar was given to her aunt

and uncle who were unable to conceive as a gift

at just four days old. She found out she was

adopted at the age of six. Her younger brother was also given

to the same family members Huma Shah, was given away

to her aunt by her father when she was five months old,

as her aunt had struggled to have She found out the truth at the age

of 17, when her biological mother paid a visit to the UK

and revealed what had happened. Tell us about your son, your nephew,

how do you describe him? I call him my son, he addresses me as mummy. I

officially adopted him in 2013. I met him when he was ten months old,

he moved at 18 months, and since then, great relationship, lovely

bond. It is the best decision of my life. She went through a legal

adoption process. Absolutely. I opted for adoption as opposed to

becoming a kinship carers or special guardianship order, which is another

option, to share parental response ability. I just wanted to offer him

security and stability, which is most important. You have got a

lifestyle book. A life story book. Most people will know that when you

do go through a formal adoption, you are encouraged to speak to children

about their background, their heritage,... And their biological

parents. So they have a sense of belonging and it is normal. The book

is very simple, it explains where he has been and how he has two

families, one is his birth parents and his adoptive family, and he is

loved by both very much. What about your own experiences? Tellers about

the moment when you found out your parents were your aunt and uncle. I

was 17, it was my summer good mum's birthday, and my biological mother

came from Kenyon. She took me away in a room very quietly and told me

what had happened. I just remember feeling quite numb. I shed a tear

with her, because she was crying. I think that was a release at the

time. It sounds like an oxen moron, saying you are numb but you cried.

That was just my emotions taken over. How I felt at that point, it

was quite a lot to digester. I just run the looking outside my window

and thinking, I have real brothers and sisters. That gave me such a

comfort in knowing that. I was the only child. How do you feel about

it? How do you feel about what happened? Might of rendering, I have

no qualms about, I had everything I wanted. But when I was 17, because I

was sworn to secrecy, not to say anything, that was the hardest part,

because I did not get closure in knowing answers to questions. Sworn

to secrecy because? She was not supposed to tell me, I suppose. My

biological mum did not want a scene or anything of that sort. Did it

change how you felt towards your parents? Not at all. They have done

everything a parent would do. For me, it was just a closure in

knowing, why was it me, what happened? It was difficult, because

I could not tell anybody that I had already known. From that

perspective, things did prove inside. The impact of that was quite

distressing, because I just got quite sick, just because I dissolved

that information and blocked it inside of me. That is what happened.

What about you, given to your aunt when you were four days old, why did

your mum do this? Might adoptive mum could not have kids. She had four

miscarriages. My biological parents, at the age of four days, it was like

a press happening at their house, might adoptive dad's aren't

approached my mum to ask if they could hand me over. Both my parents

discussed it, and for them it was a positive thing, because they were so

close to them anyway, it was a close-knit family, it was not much

of a difference of where we were. For your payments it was a selfless

act? Definitely. Respect for them both, how they did that, they

selflessly handed me over to them. They were giving a gift, rather

than, there you are. It was upsetting for my mum, but at the

same time she was happy that she could get her sister a child. In our

family, it was more of a positive. Could you imagine it? I could not,

but if it was for my sibling, I would do the same, because we are so

close. It is family, so if it makes the other person happy, why not? It

is your child, you have given birth! With might adoptive mum she brought

us all up the same. My sisters were no different from me or my Jungle

Brothers, we were brought up together anyway, two close families.

Two different houses. -- young brothers. There is a lot of

information -- emotion involved. The difference between their situations

is there was a closeness of family, whereas after your adoption there

was distance, there was no communication with biological and

adoptive parents. Maybe that was their way of dealing with it.

Absolutely. I got no closure in knowing that, so expectations had

increased on my part when I turned 18. The certain times of the year

when you expect a phone call, nothing, so my question was, why

tell me when there was no follow-up? Why did your mum tell you? I don't

know. I still have not addressed that situation. How I have coped is

knowing I have a great family, a great network of support, and

whatever it is, whatever has happened has happened, and I just

have to move on. Can you do that? Absolutely. I have healed in my own

way. What is it that you are damaged from? The telling of the truth? The

fact it was not your biological parents who brought you up? The

giving away? I had the expectation that the families would be brought

closer, but it went the opposite way. I paid a trip to Kenya in 2012,

to get some answers, some closure. I travelled alone. I got nothing. That

was a bit distressing. After that, I put it behind me. I moved on. Having

said that, there are still events to unfold in my life, I feel it may

come back again, and these feelings may be reignited as and when I

perhaps get married or have my child. But it is yet to be