13/02/2017 Victoria Derbyshire


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13/02/2017

Chloe Tilley presents the BBC's daily news and current affairs programme with original stories, exclusive interviews, audience debate and breaking news.


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Hello it's Monday, it's 9 o'clock, I'm Chloe Tilley,

:00:07.:00:09.

in for Victoria Derbyshire, welcome to the programme.

:00:10.:00:19.

Chaos in one of the biggest prisons in the country has been revealed

:00:20.:00:23.

Move away from it or else I will use it on you. I would prefer it if you

:00:24.:00:35.

didn't. Can you move away from it? Lacey I can step up here.

:00:36.:00:39.

An undercover reporter discovered widespread drug use,

:00:40.:00:41.

a lack of control, door alarms that did not go off in one

:00:42.:00:43.

block and a hole in an internal security fence.

:00:44.:00:46.

We'll hear from prisoners and guards this morning.

:00:47.:00:47.

And if you've spent time in prison recently,

:00:48.:00:49.

we are really keen to hear your experiences this morning.

:00:50.:00:52.

Also on the programme, more division for the church over

:00:53.:00:55.

How damaging will the row be for the church?

:00:56.:01:00.

Good morning, I am Father Andrew Foreshaw-Cain, I'm happily married

:01:01.:01:12.

to my husband and I believe the report today is a steaming pile of

:01:13.:01:19.

waffle which will harm the church. And Gavin Ashenden, have spent years

:01:20.:01:24.

on the General Synod and the report invites us to take direction that

:01:25.:01:28.

the teaching of Jesus and the faithfulness of the Church does not

:01:29.:01:30.

allow us to go in. And Adele stole the show

:01:31.:01:37.

at the Grammys overnight - for an amazing George Michael

:01:38.:01:43.

cover....but it didn't I know it's live TV, I'm sorry,

:01:44.:01:45.

I need to start again, I'm sorry for swearing and I'm

:01:46.:01:49.

sorry for starting again. Welcome to the programme,

:01:50.:01:54.

we're live until 11. I'm Chloe Tilley and

:01:55.:02:13.

throughout the morning we'll bring you the latest breaking news

:02:14.:02:14.

and developing stories. A little later in the programme

:02:15.:02:17.

we'll hear from children of addicted parents -

:02:18.:02:19.

as a new report from the NSPCC says they receive a call every single

:02:20.:02:22.

hour from adults worried about drugs We'll talk about the impact it has

:02:23.:02:25.

on those young children. If you've got you own experience,

:02:26.:02:29.

do get in touch - use the hashtag Victoria LIVE and if you text,

:02:30.:02:32.

you will be charged Widespread drug use,

:02:33.:02:34.

door alarms that didn't work and a hole in a perimeter fence

:02:35.:02:39.

- just some of the discoveries made by a BBC undercover

:02:40.:02:42.

reporter at a prison Panorama discovered evidence

:02:43.:02:44.

of major security failings during secret filming at HMP

:02:45.:02:47.

Northumberland which holds more than 1,000 men and is run

:02:48.:02:53.

by the firm Sodexo. Undercover in one

:02:54.:02:56.

of our biggest jails. For two months, BBC Panorama filmed

:02:57.:03:02.

the drugs feeding addiction inside. HMP Northumberland is a private jail

:03:03.:03:06.

run by the French company Sodexo On the undercover reporter's first

:03:07.:03:15.

day inside, 2.5 kilograms of Spice, an illegal high with a prison value

:03:16.:03:37.

of ?250,000 was found in two cells. Despite this, Panorama was told

:03:38.:03:41.

there was no lockdown, so the block The BBC secretly filmed

:03:42.:03:44.

inmates high on drugs. CCTV cameras recorded

:03:45.:03:55.

an inmate being stamped on. At one point, Panorama's

:03:56.:04:27.

undercover reporter During filming, the BBC discovered

:04:28.:04:28.

a serious security breach, Nearby, officers found

:04:29.:04:43.

wire-cutting tools and, later, It meant drugs could have been

:04:44.:04:57.

passed into the jail. The reporter asked

:04:58.:05:03.

the governor what went wrong. Sodexo, the company that runs

:05:04.:05:21.

the prison, said the safety of staff The Ministry of Justice said it

:05:22.:05:25.

would urgently investigate the BBC's footage and that the government

:05:26.:05:32.

is determined to reform our prisons. Much more on that when we speak to

:05:33.:05:51.

one former prisoner who says 85% of the people he was in prison with

:05:52.:05:56.

work on spies. Now a summary of the rest of the day's news. -- they were

:05:57.:06:04.

on spice. Britain's biggest supermarket Tesco

:06:05.:06:07.

says it's taking immediate action to check prices,

:06:08.:06:09.

after a BBC investigation revealed two thirds of deals

:06:10.:06:11.

on the shelves were out of date, A team from BBC Inside Out visited

:06:12.:06:14.

50 branches across England, and found multi-buy deals

:06:15.:06:20.

still being advertised days - and in some cases months

:06:21.:06:23.

after the deductions The Co-Op Bank has

:06:24.:06:24.

announced it's up for sale. The high street bank has over

:06:25.:06:31.

four million customers but almost collapsed in 2013 after a series

:06:32.:06:33.

of financial problems. Since then it's been run by private

:06:34.:06:37.

investment companies who say they've now made "considerable progress"

:06:38.:06:40.

in turning the business around. The body that approves church law,

:06:41.:06:44.

the General Synod of the Church Much of the debate is likely

:06:45.:06:47.

to centre on the clergy's response to a report on gay

:06:48.:06:54.

marriage, which upholds a traditional definition of marriage

:06:55.:06:56.

as being between a man and a woman. But 11 former bishops have accused

:06:57.:06:59.

the church of ignoring Nearly 200,000 people

:07:00.:07:02.

in Northern California are being evacuated from their homes

:07:03.:07:10.

after the tallest dam in America Officials feared the

:07:11.:07:16.

Oroville Dam could be about to collapse after a giant hole

:07:17.:07:20.

developed in the overflow channel. Crews using helicopters have

:07:21.:07:23.

dropped rocks to fill the gouge in the spillway,

:07:24.:07:26.

and the excess water this programme they were conned out

:07:27.:07:42.

of thousands of pounds by an organisation that said it could win

:07:43.:07:48.

in custody. This service is provided by Mackenzie Friends, not legally

:07:49.:07:52.

trained but providing support for those going to court, the company

:07:53.:07:55.

charged for their services and there are now calls for this to be

:07:56.:07:59.

regulated. We will have a special report on that just talking to

:08:00.:08:05.

families who have been affected just after 9:30am.

:08:06.:08:09.

At the Grammy's Adele has broken her own record,

:08:10.:08:12.

becoming the first person to take the top three awards

:08:13.:08:14.

The star was honoured at the awards in Los Angeles for her single Hello

:08:15.:08:18.

But the London-born singer apparently turned down

:08:19.:08:21.

the award for best album, saying Beyonce deserved it more.

:08:22.:08:25.

Adele won five prizes in all, including three of the top awards,

:08:26.:08:35.

Best Album, Song of the Year and record of the year.

:08:36.:08:38.

Sir Bradley Wiggins has pulled out of Channel 4's winter sports show

:08:39.:08:41.

Britain's most decorated Olympian suffered a small

:08:42.:08:44.

fracture while taking part in snow cross training.

:08:45.:08:46.

The eight-time Olympic medallist and Tour de France winner said

:08:47.:08:48.

he was "gutted" that the injury forced him out.

:08:49.:08:56.

Channel 4 said Sir Bradley had been keen to continue but wouldn't appear

:08:57.:08:59.

after the fourth show in the series, which has attracted

:09:00.:09:01.

criticism after a number of previous celebrities

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That's a summary of the latest BBC News - more at 9.30am.

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Your views are welcome on gay marriage within the church. We will

:09:16.:09:20.

be talking to various interested parties.

:09:21.:09:22.

Do get in touch with us throughout the morning,

:09:23.:09:24.

use the hashtag Victoria LIVE and If you text, you will be charged

:09:25.:09:27.

And a football doping investigation has been conducted with some

:09:28.:09:32.

surprising findings, Will Perry joins us now, so Will,

:09:33.:09:34.

At least 39% of players in the English football league were not

:09:35.:09:44.

drugs tested for illegal doping, according to figures we have

:09:45.:09:47.

received, that is the Championship and League 1 and League 2, although

:09:48.:09:52.

not the Premier League. The body that carries out testing on behalf

:09:53.:09:57.

of the FA and also test the 50 Olympic, Paralympic and Commonwealth

:09:58.:10:01.

professional sports, they took thousands of samples from 1989

:10:02.:10:10.

players in the EFL. From 550 players to play in the Premier League, 799

:10:11.:10:16.

samples were taken, a massive difference which does not account

:10:17.:10:21.

for players being tested more than once, one player tested five times

:10:22.:10:24.

would mean five samples, for instance. So those figures relate to

:10:25.:10:29.

the English football league but it's not just them that have been

:10:30.:10:34.

questioned. No, figures show there is an even bigger problem in women's

:10:35.:10:40.

football with only 36 samples taken from 169 players in Women's Super

:10:41.:10:44.

League one, the top flight of domestic women's football, the

:10:45.:10:50.

Football Association say like any sport, it has prioritised and

:10:51.:10:54.

anti-doping programme at the elite end of it and they also say the

:10:55.:10:58.

researchers intelligence led, meaning any player that the FA

:10:59.:11:03.

thinks presents a problem will be targeted, last season we had the

:11:04.:11:08.

Brentford midfielder Alan Judge who was the only player tested on behalf

:11:09.:11:12.

of the FA to bridge these doping regulations and he was reprimanded

:11:13.:11:16.

after proving that the substance he had taken was from an asthma

:11:17.:11:21.

inhaler. Having said this, there are bigger issues in other European

:11:22.:11:25.

leagues, Spain, Germany, the Scottish FA last year announced that

:11:26.:11:29.

they had plans to tackle the issues and the English at a plan to double

:11:30.:11:34.

the number of tests conducted next season at a cost of almost ?2

:11:35.:11:38.

million. We'll have the headlines are you at our past nine. Thank you,

:11:39.:11:40.

we will speak to you then. Next this morning, should

:11:41.:11:45.

the Church of England stop insisting marriage has to be

:11:46.:11:48.

between a man and a woman? The issue is set to cause

:11:49.:11:50.

yet more divisions when the the General Synod -

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that's basically the governing body of the church, made up of bishops,

:11:54.:11:55.

clergy and lay members - At the moment gay people can't

:11:56.:11:58.

get married in a Church of England church -

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though they can get blessed in some. A report to be debated

:12:02.:12:04.

at the meeting on Wednesday will stick to the traditional

:12:05.:12:07.

definition of marriage In an unprecedented move,

:12:08.:12:08.

that's now been opposed by 11 former bishops who say the church

:12:09.:12:13.

is failing its LGBT members. Last month a House of Bishops report

:12:14.:12:16.

said the Church shouldn't change its opposition

:12:17.:12:22.

to same-sex marriage, tone and culture of welcome

:12:23.:12:23.

and support" for gay people. We can talk now to Andrew

:12:24.:12:27.

Foreshew-Cain who became Britain's first gay vicar to openly

:12:28.:12:39.

marry his partner in 2014. formerly Bishop of Swindon,

:12:40.:12:43.

who signed a letter at the weekend criticising the way the church

:12:44.:12:56.

represents gay people And Gavin Ashendon is former

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honorary chaplain to gay rights activist who now believes

:13:01.:13:02.

marriage should be And we will shortly be

:13:03.:13:06.

speaking to Susie Leafe, who is the Director of Reform

:13:07.:13:16.

an organisation that campaigns to uphold the original

:13:17.:13:18.

doctrines of the Church of England. Andrew, does the Church welcome LGBT

:13:19.:13:27.

members of the community? I don't think so. They say they do but in

:13:28.:13:31.

reality the Church of England is a very tough place for someone to be

:13:32.:13:38.

LGBT. Would you agree? I think we have moved a long way but not far

:13:39.:13:44.

enough. The criticism that we retired bishops have of this report

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from serving bishops, and we do not underestimate the difficult job they

:13:50.:13:53.

do holding the church together, around some difficult issues,

:13:54.:13:57.

nevertheless, we feel that this report does not represent the kind

:13:58.:14:03.

of direction that we were taking, and therefore understandably, a lot

:14:04.:14:08.

of gay and lesbian people in the church feel very disappointed.

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Before we get Gavin's point of view, do you think this is about the tone

:14:16.:14:18.

and the message that is sent out to gay and lesbian members of the

:14:19.:14:23.

community or is this about gay people being able to get married in

:14:24.:14:29.

church? The current bishops would say it is about tone and they would

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say they want to set a new tone. Actually I would say it should be

:14:34.:14:38.

about reality, which is how LGBT people are treated by the church and

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how our relationships are respected and recognised. It's also about

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recognising that the Church of England has a prayerful response to

:14:51.:14:55.

issues of human sexuality, and the bishops and this new report entirely

:14:56.:15:01.

failed to recognise that. The report is right that we need a change of

:15:02.:15:05.

tone but if you look for example at what else has happened this last

:15:06.:15:09.

weekend when the Archbishop of Canterbury said about child

:15:10.:15:11.

refugees, we don't just want sentiment, we want action. And the

:15:12.:15:17.

problem with this report is that it rightly calls for a change of tone,

:15:18.:15:22.

for a more welcoming, accepting attitude on behalf of the church but

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that is only going to be real and we will only touch the real reasons for

:15:29.:15:33.

homophobia if we need to see some action. I think for us retired

:15:34.:15:38.

bishops it may well be that any move a bad marriage is too far. I myself

:15:39.:15:44.

have struggled with that although I've now come to the conclusion that

:15:45.:15:49.

sacramental marriage would be strengthened rather than weakened by

:15:50.:15:54.

including same-sex partners. But nevertheless there are other things

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we could do. Other things that this report could have proposed for

:15:59.:16:00.

example the blessing of civil partnerships. That would have meant

:16:01.:16:07.

that we were not just talking about changing tone, we were really doing

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something about welcoming, accepting gay and lesbian people.

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Bretts bring in Gavin. What about the issue about a blessing of

:16:17.:16:20.

same-sex couples? Is that something you could see happening? The Church

:16:21.:16:28.

of England? Well, I would like it say Christianity is about

:16:29.:16:32.

indiscriminate love and this quality of love comes because of our

:16:33.:16:36.

relationship with the Holy Spirit. It is not produced by a committee's

:16:37.:16:40.

report even if it is done by bishops and my experience is that the

:16:41.:16:45.

chumpble has been overwhelingly loving and accepting to people who

:16:46.:16:49.

cross its doors. It is what it sets out to do. The problem with both gay

:16:50.:16:55.

marriage and also the blessing of gay relationships is that to be a

:16:56.:16:59.

Christian you're committed to follow the teaching of Jesus and the

:17:00.:17:03.

teaching of Jesus is marriage is between a man and a woman with the

:17:04.:17:07.

intention of having children. And the problem with the report is that

:17:08.:17:14.

whilst it keeps a conventional approach, traditional Christianity

:17:15.:17:18.

on the surface, in its legal advice at end, it is making arrangements

:17:19.:17:22.

for formal blessings to be prepared after civil services. So Bishop

:17:23.:17:28.

Michael was right, it is about the direction the report is take the

:17:29.:17:32.

church in and from the teaching of Jesus, that's a direction that we

:17:33.:17:36.

don't find ourselves able to take. I would challenge that the church

:17:37.:17:39.

has been entirely loving and accepting of gay and lesbian people.

:17:40.:17:44.

I have members of my congregation who are refugees from conservative

:17:45.:17:51.

churches like Gavin's who come to me after years of abuse and the

:17:52.:17:55.

theology that's held by the churches. I have regular contact

:17:56.:18:02.

with people who self-harm and there have been well reported suicides.

:18:03.:18:08.

They felt the only way out has been through suicide. There is a meeting

:18:09.:18:14.

at the General Synod of a church in Manchester who lost a 14-year-old

:18:15.:18:18.

young woman to suicide precisely because of teaching of the church.

:18:19.:18:23.

And the sense and the hurt that that person was left with. Andrew, I mean

:18:24.:18:30.

I understand that and the stories and the anecdotes that people are

:18:31.:18:36.

suffering... These aren't anecdotes. I get text messages every day from a

:18:37.:18:40.

young woman who is attending a conservative church in London who is

:18:41.:18:44.

being told that she is wrong and is going to go to hell and she

:18:45.:18:49.

self-harms every day. Sometimes so badly that she ends up in A

:18:50.:18:53.

because the cut is too deep. And there is a psychological report

:18:54.:18:59.

released in 2013 that says amazingly that gay people find themselves

:19:00.:19:03.

mentally better off, their mental health is better off in conservative

:19:04.:19:07.

churches. So we have two sets of evidence and the answer at the end

:19:08.:19:13.

is all we can do as Christians to love one another and put the Bible

:19:14.:19:17.

into practise and in that way we make our journey forward.

:19:18.:19:22.

I want to bring in Suzie who just joined us as well. I don't know how

:19:23.:19:27.

much Suzie has been able to hear of what we've said. Suzie, it is great

:19:28.:19:31.

to have you on the programme. We were just hearing from Andrew saying

:19:32.:19:39.

that many members of his congregation self-harm because they

:19:40.:19:44.

are lesbian or gay and feel they are not accepted in some extreme cases

:19:45.:19:48.

ending up in accident and emergency as a result. He's saying the church

:19:49.:19:53.

isn't welcoming enough to the LGBT community? I think that's a really

:19:54.:20:00.

difficult thing to hear and I feel sorry for those people. It is just

:20:01.:20:05.

not the experience of the lesbian and gay people that I know within

:20:06.:20:10.

our churches. Conservative churches. I think they are finding a real

:20:11.:20:14.

sense of love and acceptance, a place where they're discovering that

:20:15.:20:17.

God loves them and God wants the best for them and they're

:20:18.:20:23.

flourishing. And they are happy that same-sex marriage is not allowed in

:20:24.:20:27.

the Church of England? Well, I'm sure you've heard on the BBC over

:20:28.:20:31.

the last couple of weeks there have been people like Ed Shaw talking and

:20:32.:20:36.

I think their experience is very common. They're saying to live a

:20:37.:20:41.

life that is the same in many ways of Jesus Christ, a single life, in

:20:42.:20:47.

community, offers a great blessing. I wouldn't doubt that there are gay

:20:48.:20:53.

and lesbian people in your churches who are widely welcomed because they

:20:54.:20:56.

conform to the narrow set of views thaw want them to conform to. Those

:20:57.:21:02.

of us who find joy and love in our relationships are not welcome in

:21:03.:21:08.

your churches. I have been told I'm a false preacher and I'm going to

:21:09.:21:13.

hell by members of those churches. Conforming is an easy way of

:21:14.:21:17.

avoiding conflict and hurt and people like Ed Shaw represent a tiny

:21:18.:21:24.

minority of both the gay and lesbian community in the church and much

:21:25.:21:27.

more widely in society and what they are trying to do is using the

:21:28.:21:32.

language of conversion therapy to pretend that going gay and lesbian

:21:33.:21:36.

is a pathology and they are insisting that everybody must make

:21:37.:21:40.

the choices that they are free to make themselves to be celibate. Ed,

:21:41.:21:44.

if he is happy to be celibate, I'm happy for him, but his book talks

:21:45.:21:50.

about his despair and unhappiness and how he Fanta saousz about the

:21:51.:21:55.

lovely young man that he might build a relationship with, but can't

:21:56.:22:01.

because of the theology he holds. The majority of gay and lesbian find

:22:02.:22:05.

sources of blessing with their relationship with God as indeed I do

:22:06.:22:12.

with mine. I'm really sorry... Go ahead Suzie. We're listening. I've

:22:13.:22:18.

got various sounds coming around. I'm having to do this in the

:22:19.:22:24.

reception at BBC Plymouth. I think, from what I heard Andrew saying,

:22:25.:22:31.

he's trying to claim, I think, that a life should be a life that's

:22:32.:22:36.

hassle free and without cost... No, that's not true, Suzie at all

:22:37.:22:40.

because no relationship is ever, no marriage is ever hassle free without

:22:41.:22:44.

cost. I have been with my partner for 17 years and I promise like

:22:45.:22:47.

everybody in a long-term relationship there has been struggle

:22:48.:22:50.

within that relationship, but that relationship is nonetheless a

:22:51.:22:54.

relationship of love and plesing and support and encouragement as I'm

:22:55.:22:59.

sure so is yours. That's, in this country, you are free to have that

:23:00.:23:03.

relationship and I think that's a good thing. The question is, is

:23:04.:23:08.

whether or not that is a relationship which is in line with

:23:09.:23:13.

the teaching of Jesus Christ? What worries me about this debate is the

:23:14.:23:19.

church and the Gospel are coming across as very stayed and unmoving

:23:20.:23:26.

things and the church is a living organism. We are called to serve the

:23:27.:23:34.

good news of Jesus Christ. The doctrine has developed through the

:23:35.:23:38.

life of the Church. Sometimes we've got things terribly wrong like the

:23:39.:23:50.

inqisation. On marriage which we're discussing this morning, we made

:23:51.:23:55.

some very significant changes about divorce and welcoming divorced

:23:56.:23:59.

people into church and to have their second marriage in church. We

:24:00.:24:04.

continue, now, we welcome parents who are not married who bring their

:24:05.:24:10.

children to be baptised and now, facing the question of gay and

:24:11.:24:14.

lesbian people within the church, what we're called to do is to ask

:24:15.:24:21.

how can we express the good news of Jesus Christ which Gavin and Suzie

:24:22.:24:25.

have rightly emphasised as our central responsibility, how can we

:24:26.:24:30.

proclaim that, not just in tone, but in real ways so that they also are

:24:31.:24:35.

fully part of the church and are part of this loving, forgiving

:24:36.:24:39.

action of God? Lots of people are getting in touch.

:24:40.:24:43.

I would be keen to get you to respond to the messages. A text, "My

:24:44.:24:47.

daughter is getting married in April. Same-sex. They have to get

:24:48.:24:52.

married in the civic centre in Newcastle and the next day they're

:24:53.:24:55.

getting blessed in a church. It doesn't make any sense why they can

:24:56.:24:59.

be blessed, but not married." Another text, "I do not understand

:25:00.:25:04.

why gay Christians and priests think they should have more rights than

:25:05.:25:08.

the church? The taesmings of the church and the Bible don't support

:25:09.:25:13.

gay relationships just as it does not support fornication. You cannot

:25:14.:25:17.

change the principles of the Bible to suit your needs." I am a vicar

:25:18.:25:24.

ministering in Thailand. I am also gay. LGBT people should be treated

:25:25.:25:32.

equally not because it is the spirit of age, but it is central to the

:25:33.:25:36.

truth and love shown in Jesus." Another text, "Although I think

:25:37.:25:39.

getting married is good especially if you can do it in church, it is

:25:40.:25:42.

about people cherry-picking the Bible and the so-called word of God

:25:43.:25:45.

when it suits them. If you're not going to follow the teachings of the

:25:46.:25:49.

Bible, then it is not going to work properly." I would say, I mean, I do

:25:50.:25:58.

read the Bible every day and I would see myself as a faithful Bible

:25:59.:26:04.

reading Christian. The bishop's report which started this off fails

:26:05.:26:08.

to recognise that there is, within the Church of England, a significant

:26:09.:26:13.

diversity of thee logical approaches and scripture interpretations. So

:26:14.:26:20.

claiming there was a single way of reading Holy Script is wrong

:26:21.:26:26.

basically. Gavin. How is this going to be resolved? This conversation

:26:27.:26:31.

alone demonstrated the huge divisions within the Church of

:26:32.:26:35.

England? That's a good question and an important one. The Church of

:26:36.:26:38.

England has been very good, because it is very welcoming and it is

:26:39.:26:44.

enormous by broad at gathering people together in one group and it

:26:45.:26:48.

has done for a very long time. The problem as your e-mails and your

:26:49.:26:51.

Twitter feed have shown is we've reached a point where the two-ways

:26:52.:26:57.

of understanding our relationship as human beings are simply going in

:26:58.:27:01.

different directions and the problem we're facing at the moment is that

:27:02.:27:05.

even the inclusivity of the Church of England may not be broad enough

:27:06.:27:09.

to manage to keep the two directions together and unfortunately that's

:27:10.:27:11.

the experience of the church elsewhere. In America, for example,

:27:12.:27:15.

where the conversation is 20 or 30 ahead of where we are now,

:27:16.:27:20.

unfortunately, the Christian church separate the Anglican Church

:27:21.:27:24.

separated into two groups, each pursuing what they thought the truth

:27:25.:27:27.

was. Maybe that's what will have to happen here if we are to keep our

:27:28.:27:33.

integrity and then we can test what Christianity will allow people to

:27:34.:27:39.

flourish best. The same kind of things were said about the Ministry

:27:40.:27:42.

of Women in the church and we in the Church of England took such a long

:27:43.:27:46.

time to actually come to where we are now and where we are now is that

:27:47.:27:52.

we have so many wonderful women serving as priest and bishops in the

:27:53.:27:57.

Church of England, we haven't split. We haven't turned our back on the

:27:58.:28:02.

Bible. We've actually moved forward under the power of the Holy Spirit.

:28:03.:28:07.

We understand the Bible in different ways and we now have such a much

:28:08.:28:13.

better church because it is inclusive, because it has the

:28:14.:28:17.

diversity that women have brought and now let's see whether we could

:28:18.:28:20.

also have a little bit of courage and do the same about gay and

:28:21.:28:25.

lesbian people? We have had a text that's come in saying, "Why not form

:28:26.:28:29.

a splinter church that would accommodate their preferences as

:28:30.:28:34.

Gavin suggested? The Church of England is a splinter church from

:28:35.:28:41.

the Catholic Church." What we want is a recognition that there is a

:28:42.:28:45.

diversity of thee logical and pastoral approach to issues of

:28:46.:28:48.

sexuality and we want that to be honoured in the same way that other

:28:49.:28:51.

significant divisions within the church are honoured within the

:28:52.:28:55.

church. Ordination of women, divorce, other things too. We have

:28:56.:29:00.

enormous divergence of theology within the Church of England and one

:29:01.:29:04.

of our geniuses is to learn to live with that and it would be a great

:29:05.:29:09.

witness to the world if progressives and Conservatives within the Church

:29:10.:29:12.

of England were able to do so within the Church of England. Good

:29:13.:29:14.

disagreement is what the bishops were talking about three years ago

:29:15.:29:17.

and that would be a wonderful thing to see. A tweet from Rich saying,

:29:18.:29:21.

"Unless the Church of England changes its attitude to LGBT people.

:29:22.:29:25.

It will die out. It is simple really." Thank you for coming in and

:29:26.:29:30.

talking to us today. Your experience is welcome. You can

:29:31.:29:36.

use the hashtag Victoria live throughout the programme.

:29:37.:29:41.

Conned trying to get her children back.

:29:42.:29:43.

This woman paid thousands to a man who said he could win

:29:44.:29:46.

More than a million children could be living with an alcoholic

:29:47.:29:54.

From the age of eight going to my dad's at the weekend I was

:29:55.:30:06.

effectively the carer. It was typical for my dad to pick me up

:30:07.:30:11.

from school, literally fall over because he was so drunk.

:30:12.:30:19.

We'll hear from some of the children on how it has affected them.

:30:20.:30:34.

A BBC investigation has found evidence of major security failings

:30:35.:30:37.

at a privately-run prison in the North East of England.

:30:38.:30:39.

A reporter from Panorama filmed undercover at the jail

:30:40.:30:41.

in Morpeth, discovered a number of issues, including

:30:42.:30:43.

Sodexo who run the prison says the safety of staff and inmates

:30:44.:30:47.

The Ministry of Justice says it will investigate the footage

:30:48.:30:50.

and the government is committed to reforming prisons.

:30:51.:30:57.

Britain's biggest supermarket, Tesco, has promised

:30:58.:30:58.

action after a BBC investigation revealed two-thirds of deals

:30:59.:31:06.

on the shelves were out of date, and didn't work at the checkout.

:31:07.:31:09.

Over three months a team from BBC Inside Out visited 50

:31:10.:31:12.

branches of Tesco across England and found multi-buy deals

:31:13.:31:14.

still being advertised days, weeks and in some cases months

:31:15.:31:16.

after the deductions were no longer valid at the till.

:31:17.:31:19.

The supermarket says it's working to make

:31:20.:31:21.

A man from Bury has been charged and did the sparrows serves

:31:22.:31:55.

offences act after a suspicious package was found at Manchester

:31:56.:31:58.

Airport. The body that approves church law,

:31:59.:32:13.

the General Synod of the Church of England, rates today. Much of the

:32:14.:32:17.

debate will centre on the clergy 's response to a report on gay marriage

:32:18.:32:20.

which upholds the traditional definition of marriage as being

:32:21.:32:24.

between a man and a woman. 11 former bishops have accused the Church of

:32:25.:32:27.

ignoring the views of gay Christians. One viewers says, the

:32:28.:32:36.

teaching is based on the Ten Commandments and while having

:32:37.:32:39.

sympathy for gay Christians it cannot allow them to Marin Cilic.

:32:40.:32:43.

Richard says, I am 62, was brought up in the Church of England, was a

:32:44.:32:48.

churchwarden until ten years ago, I am gay and right now despair of the

:32:49.:32:53.

church and I want nothing to do with it because of this message it keeps

:32:54.:32:57.

sending out. Keep sending in your messages. Let's get some sport.

:32:58.:33:03.

The headlines, Joe Root should be confirmed as England test captain

:33:04.:33:10.

today, he is believed to be the clear favourite after Alastair Cook

:33:11.:33:15.

resigned after leading the side. Official figures today show that 39%

:33:16.:33:20.

of players who played in the English football league last season were not

:33:21.:33:23.

drugs tested by the anti-doping organisation. The programme was

:33:24.:33:30.

specialised at the elite end. Claudio Ranieri says he may have

:33:31.:33:34.

been too loyal to his Leicester players, they are now just one point

:33:35.:33:38.

above the bottom three after losing to Swansea yesterday. In Scotland

:33:39.:33:43.

were beaten by France 22-16 in France, the tenth time in a row

:33:44.:33:47.

they've lost in Paris. England on the only unbeaten side after two

:33:48.:33:52.

matches. More about those stories at ten o'clock. See you then. Thank

:33:53.:34:01.

you. I was engrossed in some of your e-mails, I will read those in the

:34:02.:34:02.

next few minutes. This programme has spoken to parents

:34:03.:34:04.

who say they were conned out of thousands of pounds

:34:05.:34:07.

by an organization that had promised The Parents' Voice London advertised

:34:08.:34:10.

paid-for support for people going through the family courts,

:34:11.:34:15.

known as McKenzie Friends. There are now calls

:34:16.:34:17.

for this to be regulated. Our reporer James

:34:18.:34:19.

Melley has the story. I felt like I'd been

:34:20.:34:24.

conned significantly. I felt like my whole world

:34:25.:34:32.

came crashing around me. He promised her that he would

:34:33.:34:34.

get her children back. She was only a young mum,

:34:35.:34:37.

you know, she was devastated There are examples of people

:34:38.:34:39.

simply being ripped off. When families break up

:34:40.:34:49.

and there's a dispute over the custody of children,

:34:50.:34:53.

it can end up in places But because of changes in legal aid,

:34:54.:34:55.

it's now increasingly hard for families to get funding

:34:56.:35:03.

for those kinds of cases. When someone can't afford

:35:04.:35:05.

or doesn't want a solicitor, McKenzie Friends can help people

:35:06.:35:09.

representing themselves in court Anyone can be one, it doesn't

:35:10.:35:12.

require any legal training, but increasingly McKenzie Friends

:35:13.:35:18.

are demanding a fee The company The Parents Voice London

:35:19.:35:20.

did just that, offering McKenzie Friends services

:35:21.:35:27.

for those that paid. Last year, two of its directors,

:35:28.:35:31.

Claire Mann and David Bright, were jailed for perverting

:35:32.:35:34.

the course of justice in one case Now, several parents who paid them

:35:35.:35:37.

thousands of pounds in the hope of getting help to win access

:35:38.:35:46.

to their children are trying Rupinder Randhawa came

:35:47.:35:48.

across David Bright and The Parents Voice

:35:49.:35:52.

when she was fighting a decision Desperate for help, she paid them

:35:53.:35:54.

thousands of pounds. When you got in touch

:35:55.:36:01.

with David Bright in the first So I was not in a great space,

:36:02.:36:04.

but I was still willing to... Your lawyer had told

:36:05.:36:24.

you that there was very little What did David Bright tell

:36:25.:36:28.

you when you spoke to him? That there was hope,

:36:29.:36:32.

and there is something that he could definitely do,

:36:33.:36:34.

and he did cases like this. Did he tell you how

:36:35.:36:37.

successful he is? He told me that he'd

:36:38.:36:39.

never lost a case. I felt encouraged to know

:36:40.:36:42.

that he could possibly bring an opportunity where it is possible

:36:43.:36:54.

for me to have custody She says David Bright

:36:55.:36:56.

charged her ?480 a month and additional one-off fees

:36:57.:37:11.

including ?6,000 to publish But, despite this, Bright

:37:12.:37:13.

and The Parents Voice did How did you feel when you realised

:37:14.:37:16.

that David Bright and The Parents I felt like I'd been

:37:17.:37:21.

conned significantly. Like my whole world came

:37:22.:37:37.

crashing around me, because there was no hope

:37:38.:37:44.

in getting my children back, so... That just ruined everything,

:37:45.:37:47.

it's like a false promise. Somebody had promised to do

:37:48.:37:54.

something and they were not who they said they were,

:37:55.:37:57.

so it just ruined everything, any hope I had left in me,

:37:58.:38:14.

it just sucked every bit of life Quite often when parents

:38:15.:38:17.

separate, one moves away. Jenny Lewington is a

:38:18.:38:20.

McKenzie Friend, she worked with The Parents Voice but quit

:38:21.:38:22.

because she says she She was also concerned about

:38:23.:38:24.

David Bright's working practices. I'd gone to the hearing

:38:25.:38:27.

with a mother who was trying to appeal an adoption,

:38:28.:38:30.

and he'd submitted the wrong form And I rang him and said,

:38:31.:38:32.

"Mum's submitted the wrong form." And I knew that he'd completed

:38:33.:38:41.

the forms and then sent them to the client for signing

:38:42.:38:44.

and sending to court, and he said, "Yes, I know I have,

:38:45.:38:47.

I did it to try and delay matters." Do you think that would

:38:48.:38:50.

have actually helped? This guy had promised this mother

:38:51.:38:52.

that he would get her children back. And they'd already been

:38:53.:39:09.

with the adoptive parents for some time, and I don't think

:39:10.:39:12.

she would have got them back. She'd had a barrister up

:39:13.:39:14.

to Bright got involved, and I think she approached Bright

:39:15.:39:17.

out of desperation to try and get her children back,

:39:18.:39:19.

and he said that he would What kind of impact did David Bright

:39:20.:39:22.

have on the families She just said that he'd promised her

:39:23.:39:25.

that he would get her children back. She was only a young mum,

:39:26.:39:31.

you know, she was devastated The Law Society, which represents

:39:32.:39:34.

solicitors, is calling for a ban on McKenzie Friends being able

:39:35.:39:37.

to claim costs in court cases. We think that this would

:39:38.:39:40.

help to really spell out that a McKenzie Friend is not a qualified

:39:41.:39:52.

lawyer, does not have the training and expertise that a qualified

:39:53.:39:55.

lawyer would have, and therefore should not be regarded as on a par

:39:56.:39:57.

with a qualified lawyer. One of our concerns about the rise

:39:58.:40:00.

in paid-for McKenzie Friends is that a lot of these people

:40:01.:40:03.

are effectively acting as lawyers and advertising

:40:04.:40:05.

themselves as lawyers, even though they do not have legal

:40:06.:40:07.

training and legal qualifications, and they do not have the duties

:40:08.:40:10.

to the court that a qualified If a lawyer were to mislead a court

:40:11.:40:13.

or even allow a court to be misled, that would be a disciplinary offence

:40:14.:40:23.

and they would be struck off. Have you heard of other cases

:40:24.:40:28.

where McKenzie Friends have provided poor service or have

:40:29.:40:31.

otherwise caused problems? There have been anecdotal

:40:32.:40:34.

examples of McKenzie Sometimes it's a case

:40:35.:40:38.

of well-meaning people who just don't have the understanding

:40:39.:40:44.

that they need to in order to be Sometimes it's that they work

:40:45.:40:47.

for an organisation that has a particular agenda,

:40:48.:40:53.

and they put the organisation's agenda ahead of the interests

:40:54.:40:55.

of the individual client. And sometimes there are examples

:40:56.:40:59.

of people simply being ripped off by McKenzie Friends charging quite

:41:00.:41:02.

significant sums, sometimes as much as lawyers would charge,

:41:03.:41:05.

but arguing that lawyers are expensive, you can afford us,

:41:06.:41:09.

therefore you should instruct us. I mean, you've got to watch him

:41:10.:41:11.

in action, he's brilliant. Stephen, whose real name we can't

:41:12.:41:15.

use for legal reasons, spent thousands of pounds

:41:16.:41:17.

with The Parents Voice. A friend suggested he get in touch

:41:18.:41:21.

with David Bright after his ex-wife took custody of their children

:41:22.:41:24.

after the break-up I went to see him in his

:41:25.:41:26.

Southgate office, and there He told me exactly what I wanted

:41:27.:41:31.

to hear, he asked me if I wanted custody,

:41:32.:41:36.

he asked me how much At the point where you

:41:37.:41:39.

approached David Bright, I went in thinking, "There's got

:41:40.:41:43.

to be no-one who can promise me the earth,

:41:44.:41:49.

no-one that's that good." There's obviously solicitors out

:41:50.:41:51.

there that are wonderful, but they cost tens and tens

:41:52.:41:53.

of thousands. Friends of mine have paid half

:41:54.:41:56.

a million in lawyers' fees just to get one inch from their ex-wife,

:41:57.:42:00.

so he came as a welcome surprise because I was told he wasn't that

:42:01.:42:04.

expensive in advance. He asked me for ?1,000

:42:05.:42:10.

in advance, then monthly ?500, then that would be it,

:42:11.:42:13.

there'd be no other charges. He'll send thousands

:42:14.:42:18.

of letters, if I want. He'll bombard the other side,

:42:19.:42:24.

he would win the case for me. He'll appoint a lawyer that

:42:25.:42:27.

would turn up at court At the time, I was broken,

:42:28.:42:30.

I was really in a low, Psychologically I was exhausted,

:42:31.:42:36.

I didn't know what to do. Stephen claims Bright took

:42:37.:42:39.

around ?12,000 from him by double-billing him,

:42:40.:42:41.

and for work he didn't do. He says since Bright's conviction

:42:42.:42:44.

he's been contacted by other people who feel their money was wrongly

:42:45.:42:48.

taken by The Parents Voice. People that are just

:42:49.:42:51.

so shocked, they've had What he does, he gets them

:42:52.:43:06.

all so close and he makes You know, a lot of these people have

:43:07.:43:13.

violent exes, horrible exes, and the children are always

:43:14.:43:18.

involved, so what he does, he manipulates the parents

:43:19.:43:20.

with the vision of the kids, Like Stephen and several other

:43:21.:43:23.

people, Rupinder Randhawa has won a County Court judgment

:43:24.:43:26.

against David Bright and The Parents Voice

:43:27.:43:28.

for more than ?10,000. She didn't win her children back,

:43:29.:43:30.

and resents the false I'm just looking forward

:43:31.:43:32.

to the future and moving on with my life, doing the things

:43:33.:43:42.

that I should have been doing in the year that I've wasted

:43:43.:43:46.

of doing absolutely nothing David Bright was released

:43:47.:43:48.

from prison last month. We asked him for an interview,

:43:49.:43:53.

but he said no. He told us he denies any wrongdoing,

:43:54.:43:55.

and that he and The Parents Voice had helped hundreds of people

:43:56.:43:59.

with their cases. In making this film,

:44:00.:44:01.

we've heard from several people that have had positive experiences

:44:02.:44:05.

with McKenzie Friends, but senior judges are considering changing

:44:06.:44:08.

the rules for how McKenzie Friends operate, including setting up a code

:44:09.:44:11.

of conduct so those using them in the future will know

:44:12.:44:13.

what to expect. We have had a tweet from Jason

:44:14.:44:26.

saying "He destroyed my life and deserved a longer sentence, family

:44:27.:44:30.

courts need reform as there are too many calls." Mark says, there are

:44:31.:44:35.

good and bad people in all walks of life, many McKenzie Friends

:44:36.:44:38.

fantastic and only focus on what is best for the children. Likewise some

:44:39.:44:44.

solicitors are only interested in the monetary rewards and others are

:44:45.:44:45.

genuine. After 10am we'll speak

:44:46.:44:48.

to a McKenzie Friend Really keen to hear your

:44:49.:44:50.

experience this morning. Coming up, the children

:44:51.:44:53.

of a terminally ill couple who died of cancer within days of each other

:44:54.:44:56.

have shared this moving photograph of their parents'

:44:57.:44:58.

last moments together. We'll speak to a family

:44:59.:45:01.

friend before 11am. It's thought more than

:45:02.:45:07.

a million children could be living with an alcoholic

:45:08.:45:09.

or drug-dependent parent. Every single hour the NSPCC receives

:45:10.:45:12.

a call from an adult who is concerned about alcohol

:45:13.:45:15.

or drugs being used around children. But is enough being

:45:16.:45:17.

done to help them? Earlier this month the Labour MP

:45:18.:45:20.

Jon Ashworth spoke in Parliament about his experience of growing up

:45:21.:45:23.

with an alcoholic father. He urged ministers to do more

:45:24.:45:26.

to stop children with similar His testimony was so powerful it

:45:27.:45:29.

brought the Health Minister, My parents divorced

:45:30.:45:35.

when I was about seven or eight. They divorced, to be frank

:45:36.:45:43.

and candid, because of the strain that my father's alcoholism

:45:44.:45:46.

placed on marriage. In the week, I would live

:45:47.:45:52.

with my mum and at weekends And my dad would spend

:45:53.:45:57.

the whole weekend drunk. In fact, from the age

:45:58.:46:01.

of eight or so, going to my dad's at the weekend,

:46:02.:46:06.

I was effectively the carer. It would be very typical for my dad

:46:07.:46:11.

to pick me up from school, literally fall over,

:46:12.:46:14.

because he was so drunk. I recall - because this

:46:15.:46:16.

wasn't the days of mobile phones and so on -

:46:17.:46:19.

going to the phone box to order It wasn't far to walk, to be fair,

:46:20.:46:22.

but we couldn't walk up Or I would go back to my dad's

:46:23.:46:30.

on Friday after school, open the fridge, as you do

:46:31.:46:37.

when you get home from school and you want to eat probably some

:46:38.:46:40.

chocolate biscuits, whatever. And the fridge being completely

:46:41.:46:45.

empty, apart from these huge big And it was my job as a ten-year-old,

:46:46.:46:47.

11-year-old, 12-year-old, 13-year-old, to go down to the shops

:46:48.:47:03.

to get the food in for the weekend And there were loads of occasions,

:47:04.:47:07.

or similar stories. Christmas, my dad wasn't

:47:08.:47:16.

bothered about Christmas. I was going, I remember going

:47:17.:47:33.

through them all. The shame. The embarrassment particularly as a

:47:34.:47:42.

teenager. The anger as well. But I always loved my dad and he always

:47:43.:47:49.

loved me. And we were lucky, he was never violent and never abusive.

:47:50.:47:54.

There are millions of children or hundreds of thousands of children

:47:55.:47:56.

who are not in that lucky situation. Great social change requires

:47:57.:48:07.

three things, I think. It requires long-term political

:48:08.:48:09.

will, it requires nonpartisan And I've heard all

:48:10.:48:11.

three of those today. And I hope that each member who has

:48:12.:48:21.

spoken here today will continue to work with me as we fight

:48:22.:48:24.

on to tackle this social injustice. That was the health Minister moved

:48:25.:48:45.

to tears by what Jon Ashworth had to say.

:48:46.:48:49.

And here to share their experiences of growing up with a parent

:48:50.:48:52.

who abused drugs and alcohol is 29-year-old Josh Connolly,

:48:53.:48:54.

whose dad was an alcoholic and died when he was nine.

:48:55.:48:59.

25-year-old Jade Bailey, whose father was addicted to drugs

:49:00.:49:02.

21-year-old Sarah, in Liverpool, whose father is an alcoholic.

:49:03.:49:07.

We're not using her surname to protect his identity.

:49:08.:49:13.

Thank you for talking to us today. I imagine this is really difficult.

:49:14.:49:21.

Josh, your dad died when you were nine. What are your memories of your

:49:22.:49:28.

childhood? To be honest because I guess because of how traumatic a lot

:49:29.:49:33.

of it was. It's difficult for me to recall like proper sort of visual

:49:34.:49:37.

memories of the things that went on. I tend to only really remember a lot

:49:38.:49:43.

of the bad things. And also the feelings. That's what stayed with me

:49:44.:49:50.

all my life and that's still tan jable today the way that my dad's

:49:51.:49:53.

drinking and everything that comes with that made me feel. So what was

:49:54.:49:57.

normal for you? Give us a sense of what a normal day would be like

:49:58.:50:01.

around your dad. My dad was a chaotic alcoholic. So with my dad

:50:02.:50:05.

you never knew what he was going to get from one day to the next. I will

:50:06.:50:11.

give you an example. It was a heatwave one summer and we had gone

:50:12.:50:16.

to a park and it was jam-packed full of people and my dad was drinking

:50:17.:50:21.

from cans and was visibly drunk and it was midday and he was walking

:50:22.:50:26.

along urinating as he walked and I can remember like a six or

:50:27.:50:29.

seven-year-old boy walking five or ten yards in front of him, but

:50:30.:50:33.

feeling a deep sense of shame, but also guilt that I couldn't stand

:50:34.:50:39.

next to my dad in alliance and to protect my dad and then anger, anger

:50:40.:50:44.

at everybody looking and the shame that it was making me feel, but the

:50:45.:50:48.

anger was never directed towards my dad in my case, I directed it

:50:49.:50:54.

outwards. So I grew up with quite a strong sort of dislike to the rest

:50:55.:50:59.

of the world really. Jade, your mum and dad split up when

:51:00.:51:03.

you were quite little, didn't they? Yes. I know you saw your dad at

:51:04.:51:07.

weekends, but from the age of six he used to take drugs around you? Well,

:51:08.:51:12.

it's probably from the age I don't even remember. Really. My mum never

:51:13.:51:17.

knew. When I used to go there on the weekends, him and his friends, it

:51:18.:51:21.

was a little flat and him and his friends used to take drugs around me

:51:22.:51:26.

and call it their medicine and I knew, I knew, it was never right and

:51:27.:51:30.

it was never a medicine. I remember them going into the bathroom and I

:51:31.:51:33.

can picture it now going into the bathroom and doing it and coming out

:51:34.:51:37.

and them all being off their face and I would just go upstairs to the

:51:38.:51:43.

hairdresser's which atamped to the flat. My dad was a DJ and I would

:51:44.:51:49.

listen to the DJ music that he had. What sort of drugs was he talking?

:51:50.:51:54.

He started on the basics. Well, I say the basics, but so you've got

:51:55.:51:59.

weed and ecstasy and things like that and then he went on to heroin.

:52:00.:52:05.

When he went on to heroin I was about ten years old. And he was a

:52:06.:52:13.

mess. I mean our fun time on a weekend, and I hate to admit it, our

:52:14.:52:18.

fun time at the weekend was going to the skip and trying to find toys. I

:52:19.:52:22.

thought it was amazing. My dad was always my hero and if anything, he

:52:23.:52:29.

always will be because he made me how I am now so after I eventually

:52:30.:52:38.

told my mum, my dad takes this medicine with his friends she knew

:52:39.:52:42.

what was going and didn't stop contact, I could always speak to him

:52:43.:52:46.

if I wanted to, but it was sparse on his part. I always kind of had to

:52:47.:52:49.

make the effort, but I didn't spend time at his house anymore. What does

:52:50.:52:56.

it do to you as a child so young six or younger, seeing your dad doing

:52:57.:52:59.

that and understanding that it's not right? The reason why I begun to

:53:00.:53:06.

speak out about it is because I've never had one answer made by him. I

:53:07.:53:10.

never had that question answered by him and it is why was I not enough

:53:11.:53:15.

to make you stop? Why as a child do you not love me enough to stop and

:53:16.:53:21.

to be my dad? Because he knew how much I adored him and I knew he

:53:22.:53:25.

adored me. I knew that I was the only thing that he cared about in

:53:26.:53:29.

his life apart from the drug. I knew I was everything to him and he was

:53:30.:53:33.

to me. Which is why it was so hard for my mum and she was incredible.

:53:34.:53:38.

They were only 16 when they had me. So she completely, we grew up

:53:39.:53:44.

together if anything and it's, it makes you feel very alone like

:53:45.:53:48.

you're not enough, and abandoned by them, but you love them so much that

:53:49.:53:53.

you just can't, you can't ever leave them no matter what they do, you

:53:54.:53:57.

know that they're sick. It's not that they, not that they're weak.

:53:58.:54:00.

Not that they're, he wasn't a bad man. He was just very, very sick.

:54:01.:54:06.

With the addiction and unfortunately that fled on to me, but it made me a

:54:07.:54:12.

better person today which is strange to say, but I'm antidrug. I speak

:54:13.:54:17.

out to a lot of younger people who are going through it and help them

:54:18.:54:23.

through the process as well and it's just, I'm a little less emotional

:54:24.:54:27.

now. I don't really have many emotions. I feel like I'm very numb

:54:28.:54:33.

from my younger years, but I'm a stronger person for it. As you're

:54:34.:54:37.

talking I can see that Josh is nodding away and I want to bring in

:54:38.:54:41.

Sarah as well. Sarah you're listening to Josh and to Jade. Do

:54:42.:54:45.

you see similarities in their stories with what you've been

:54:46.:54:48.

through? Yeah, definitely, especially Jade's. I agree with it

:54:49.:54:54.

and it makes you a stronger person and more braver and resill zant to

:54:55.:54:59.

life challenges. Your dad is an alcoholic. Explain what your

:55:00.:55:06.

childhood was like. Well, in my early years it was more happy

:55:07.:55:10.

memories of my dad because he brought me up so it kind of made it

:55:11.:55:16.

harder when he turned to alcohol because I couldn't understand why he

:55:17.:55:21.

turned to alcohol. And then it made me more hard tore walk away because

:55:22.:55:26.

I missed the old dad he was. So I would have to look after him when I

:55:27.:55:32.

came home from school and I kind of always wish, I wanted the old dad

:55:33.:55:38.

back, the one that he was when I was little. How hard was it for you to

:55:39.:55:44.

be collecting him from the pub after he was drinking or getting him out

:55:45.:55:47.

of bed to go to work when you're just a child? I found it quite

:55:48.:55:53.

embarrassing. So I think that's why I never told anyone. And it would

:55:54.:55:58.

always, sometimes he wouldn't come home from the pub or I would be

:55:59.:56:03.

waiting up all night for him to get home because I could never sleep

:56:04.:56:06.

unless I knew he was home safe and then I would always be tired getting

:56:07.:56:10.

up for school. So it was quite emotionally and mentally draining

:56:11.:56:13.

for a kid to have to go through that. You talked about the emotion

:56:14.:56:21.

of it and the embarrassment which is something that I have not really

:56:22.:56:26.

thought about. My dad, because obviously, I went to school in the

:56:27.:56:29.

area where he lived. I didn't live in the same area and he used to,

:56:30.:56:36.

when he was high on the drugs, he used to use my name against people.

:56:37.:56:40.

He would say, my daughter Jade will beat you up when you get to school.

:56:41.:56:44.

I used to have girls come up to me at school ready to fight saying your

:56:45.:56:48.

dad is going around telling everyone and they all knew he was a drug

:56:49.:56:52.

addict. They all knew what he was doing. So without me, my closest

:56:53.:56:58.

friends know about my situation, but they don't know in detail. It is

:56:59.:57:02.

only in the last couple of months that I've spoken out at all. So, if

:57:03.:57:07.

anything, he told people more than I did because he put me in that

:57:08.:57:11.

position. So when you've, when you're 13 years old and girls are

:57:12.:57:14.

coming up wanting to fight because your dad who you barely see is

:57:15.:57:19.

putting your name out there that you're going to attack them. I

:57:20.:57:23.

wouldn't attack anyone. It wasn't the greatest feeling. I was ashamed

:57:24.:57:27.

that he would do that to me. It broke my heart at the same time that

:57:28.:57:33.

he would put me in danger. Yet you say you love him. I want to bring in

:57:34.:57:40.

Jon Ashworth MP. We have had a tweet from Pamela saying this story

:57:41.:57:44.

brought me to tears. How brave is Jon for sharing this moving story.

:57:45.:57:50.

Jon, it must have been difficult for you to stand up in the Commons and

:57:51.:57:54.

talk about this. It was very difficult and it is more difficult

:57:55.:57:59.

listening to it because as I'm listening to it, there is huge part

:58:00.:58:05.

of me feeling like I betrayed my dad and I shouldn't have said what I

:58:06.:58:11.

said. It's very difficult. Part of me is regretting saying it. But

:58:12.:58:14.

another part of my thinks we have got to speak out because there is

:58:15.:58:18.

too many children who are suffering in silence because they've got a

:58:19.:58:22.

parent who abuses alcohol or drugs and it is something that we've not

:58:23.:58:25.

really talked about as a society before. We've not really put in

:58:26.:58:29.

place the measures to support them. When I listen back to the speech

:58:30.:58:33.

just now, there is part of me feeling very guilty about speaking

:58:34.:58:38.

out, there is another part of me thinking I have got a job with

:58:39.:58:41.

responsibility now and I want to do something with that job and if I can

:58:42.:58:44.

make a difference for children of alcoholics then at least I've done

:58:45.:58:48.

something important in life. Jon, if it helps you, Jade and Josh in the

:58:49.:58:52.

studio are nodding when you were talking about feeling that you'd let

:58:53.:58:56.

your dad down, betrayed him in some way, but of course, ut haven't and

:58:57.:59:00.

you've clearly succeeded in life. You have been successful. What

:59:01.:59:05.

impact did the way your dad behave have on you? Did you make you

:59:06.:59:10.

stronger? Well, I mean, who knows? I will leave that to the

:59:11.:59:17.

psychologists. You must have an idea of the way it impacted on you? It

:59:18.:59:21.

made me determined in life to do things. My dad was never violent. He

:59:22.:59:25.

was never abusive. If anything, the problem with my dad's drinking was,

:59:26.:59:28.

everybody liked him. Everybody thought he was funny, good company,

:59:29.:59:37.

you know, what a laugh, good old John Ash, nobody saw it as a

:59:38.:59:42.

problem, isn't he great fun when he had a drink? Yes, he was great fun,

:59:43.:59:46.

but I was the person who had to pick it all up or sort things out and it

:59:47.:59:51.

ebbed and flowed throughout my childhood years. Sometimes it was

:59:52.:59:56.

very bad. Sometimes it was manageable, but I suppose I think it

:59:57.:00:00.

made me determined. It made me want to change things in life. I was

:00:01.:00:06.

lucky. He was never violent, abusive, he was never horrible to

:00:07.:00:11.

people. He was a sort of a happy drunk if you like, but in some ways,

:00:12.:00:16.

that made him want to drink more because people liked him when he was

:00:17.:00:18.

drunk if you know what I mean? You said before that you would not

:00:19.:00:34.

take drugs, I wonder what it did to you, Sarah, what is your

:00:35.:00:39.

relationship to drink and drugs? I always feel nervous when I am around

:00:40.:00:43.

drunk people so I tend not to drink too much because it reminds me of

:00:44.:00:47.

looking after my dad and the embarrassment and shame and sadness

:00:48.:00:53.

so I try to stay away from it. For me it was slightly different to the

:00:54.:00:57.

others who have spoken, I went on to have troubles with alcohol myself. I

:00:58.:01:00.

think it's important to recognise the different roles children take on

:01:01.:01:05.

within the family, often children become the caregivers. There were

:01:06.:01:10.

three of us kids in our family and I became the mask and within the

:01:11.:01:14.

family, so I found my place in life by trying to make others happy, I

:01:15.:01:20.

always wanted to make sure my mum was OK so I kind of active the clown

:01:21.:01:24.

and that was where I found my place in life. -- acted the clown. It

:01:25.:01:31.

became a co-dependency thing. I wanted more than anything do not

:01:32.:01:38.

become an alcoholic. But for me when I was 12 or 13 and I found alcohol

:01:39.:01:43.

it became the perfect escape route, it really worked, to some degree, it

:01:44.:01:52.

gave me the escape that I needed. I was never really able to look after

:01:53.:01:58.

my dad or do anything like that. So I kind of felt lost in the world so

:01:59.:02:03.

at school I am acting in the clown and at home trying to be the best me

:02:04.:02:08.

so alcohol gave me an escape from that. Thank you so much for coming

:02:09.:02:14.

in, all of you. It is very, very hard to be so open so we really

:02:15.:02:16.

appreciate that. And by the way at last night's

:02:17.:02:19.

Baftas, the actor Casey Affleck spoke about his experience of having

:02:20.:02:22.

a parent who struggled with alcohol when he picked up his award

:02:23.:02:25.

for Best Actor for his role The reason that I act,

:02:26.:02:28.

it's because when I was a young kid, my mother would take me

:02:29.:02:36.

to the Al-Anon meetings And there would be lots of kids

:02:37.:02:38.

there and they would re-enact the person at their home

:02:39.:02:45.

who they were trying to understand. It was therapy, but it was

:02:46.:02:52.

acting, and it was... And acting has sort of been

:02:53.:02:54.

that for me ever since. More on the BAFTAs

:02:55.:03:04.

later in the programme. If you're affected by alcoholism

:03:05.:03:06.

or addiction, you can find a list of charaties which may be able

:03:07.:03:09.

to help on the BBC's Action Line. Now the weather with Carol. Today is

:03:10.:03:23.

windy in the West, especially the coasts of Wales and the south-west,

:03:24.:03:29.

severe gales, maybe some transport disruption. A little sunshine coming

:03:30.:03:34.

through across most of England, Wales and Northern Ireland, down the

:03:35.:03:38.

coast of Scotland and east coast of England we will keep the cloud and

:03:39.:03:41.

despite temperatures in double figures it will feel cold wherever

:03:42.:03:42.

you are. I'm Chloe Tilley, in for

:03:43.:03:50.

Victoria Derbyshire. The Ministry of Justice says it is

:03:51.:04:02.

investigating allegations of security failings that a privately

:04:03.:04:07.

run prison in north-eastern England as BBC undercover filming reveals a

:04:08.:04:10.

world of violence and drugs were the prisoners are in charge.

:04:11.:04:27.

In the next few minutes we will speak to a former prisoner who says

:04:28.:04:34.

85% of people in the prison he was then what on the drug spice.

:04:35.:04:40.

The children of a terminally ill couple who died of cancer

:04:41.:04:42.

within days of each other have shared this photograph of their

:04:43.:04:45.

We will speak to a family friend, later.

:04:46.:04:48.

And Adele cleans up the main awards at the Grammys and gets teary

:04:49.:04:51.

Winning this feels like coming full circle, I feel a bit of me has come

:04:52.:05:03.

back, I feel I cannot accept this award, for me, the Lemonade album

:05:04.:05:05.

was so monumental. A BBC investigation has found

:05:06.:05:18.

evidence of major security failings at a privately run prison

:05:19.:05:24.

in the North East of England. Panorama filmed undercover

:05:25.:05:26.

at the jail in Morpeth and discovered a number of problems,

:05:27.:05:28.

including inmates using drugs. Sodexo, who run the prison says

:05:29.:05:31.

the safety of staff and inmates The Ministry of Justice says it

:05:32.:05:34.

will investigate the footage and the government is committed

:05:35.:05:37.

to reforming prisons. I cannot react the way I want to

:05:38.:05:48.

because there is not back up there Britain's biggest supermarket,

:05:49.:06:07.

Tesco, has promised action after a BBC investigation

:06:08.:06:09.

revealed two-thirds of deals on the shelves were out of date,

:06:10.:06:12.

and didn't work at the checkout. Over three months, a team from BBC

:06:13.:06:15.

Inside Out visited 50 branches of Tesco across England

:06:16.:06:17.

and found multi-buy deals still being advertised days,

:06:18.:06:20.

weeks and in some cases months after the deductions were no

:06:21.:06:23.

longer valid at the till. The supermarket says

:06:24.:06:25.

it's working to make A man from Bury in Greater

:06:26.:06:27.

Manchester has been charged with an offence under

:06:28.:06:36.

the Explosive Substances Act aftera suspicious package was found

:06:37.:06:38.

at an airport. 43-year-old Nadeem Muhammed

:06:39.:06:40.

is accused of making It follows the discovery

:06:41.:06:42.

of a suspicious package The body that approves church law,

:06:43.:06:48.

the General Synod of the Church Much of the debate is likely

:06:49.:06:55.

to centre on the clergy's response to a report on gay marriage,

:06:56.:06:59.

which upholds a traditional definition of marriage

:07:00.:07:03.

as being between a man and a woman. A group of retired bishops have

:07:04.:07:08.

written an open letter, accusing the Church of ignoring

:07:09.:07:13.

the views of gay Christians. Parents have told this programme

:07:14.:07:16.

they were conned out of thousands of pounds by an organisation that

:07:17.:07:18.

claimed it could win The Parents' Voice London

:07:19.:07:21.

is a service that provided Mckenzie Friends are

:07:22.:07:27.

people who generally but provide support for those

:07:28.:07:32.

going through the family courts. The company charged

:07:33.:07:36.

for their services. There are now calls

:07:37.:07:37.

for this to be regulated. Firefighters in Australia

:07:38.:07:48.

are still battling around 100 Several homes and trees

:07:49.:07:50.

have been destroyed, but so far there are no reports

:07:51.:07:53.

of any casualties. Australia has been experiencing

:07:54.:07:55.

a record heatwave with temperatures as high as 47 degrees -

:07:56.:07:58.

forecasters are warning conditions could become dangerous again

:07:59.:08:01.

by the end of the week. Hollywood musical La La Land

:08:02.:08:04.

dominated this year's Baftas The film won five trophies in all,

:08:05.:08:08.

including best film and best actress There were also awards for the film

:08:09.:08:16.

Lion, including best supporting Ken Loach's I, Daniel Blake

:08:17.:08:20.

was named outstanding British film. Casey Affleck was named best actor

:08:21.:08:29.

for Manchester by the Sea, and Viola Davis won best supporting

:08:30.:08:32.

actress prize for Fences. That's a summary of the latest BBC

:08:33.:08:42.

News - more at 10.30. Joe Root is expected to be named

:08:43.:08:55.

England's test captain today, the Yorkshire batsman would succeed

:08:56.:08:58.

Alastair Cook, was captain for more than four years. Freddie Flintoff

:08:59.:09:05.

says Root is the obvious choice. You have to say Joe Root is probably the

:09:06.:09:09.

only candidate, the way he plays and the way he goes about his business

:09:10.:09:12.

you would imagine will lead itself to being a great captain. Look at

:09:13.:09:17.

Virat Kohli for India. Joe Root is in the same class as a player and a

:09:18.:09:22.

similar person so he would get my backing every time. Official figures

:09:23.:09:31.

show that 39% of players who played in the English football league last

:09:32.:09:37.

season were not officially tested for doping. Samples were taken from

:09:38.:09:41.

players appearing in the league in the last season, the Football

:09:42.:09:47.

Association say they have prioritised the anti-doping

:09:48.:09:50.

programme at the elite end. Claudio Ranieri says he may need to change

:09:51.:09:56.

things at Leicester, the Premier League champions facing relegation

:09:57.:09:59.

battle following their defeat to Swansea. This volley gave the home

:10:00.:10:07.

side the lead. Just before half-time Swansea added a second. And this win

:10:08.:10:12.

the for Swansea moves them up to 15th in the table but it is a fifth

:10:13.:10:17.

defeat in a row for Leicester. After the match Claudio Ranieri was asked

:10:18.:10:21.

if he had been too loyal to his title winning players. Could be. Of

:10:22.:10:26.

course, it is difficult, when you achieve something so good, you want

:10:27.:10:32.

to give them one chance, two chances, three chances, maybe now is

:10:33.:10:36.

too much. Chelsea ten points clear at the top of the Premier League but

:10:37.:10:41.

only managed a draw at Burnley. It took just seven minutes for Chelsea

:10:42.:10:44.

to take the lead, Pedro with the opener. But then look at there is a

:10:45.:10:51.

brilliant free kick from Burnley's new signing, Robbie Brady, levelling

:10:52.:10:57.

the game at 1-1. I don't know, it's not important for me. One more point

:10:58.:11:05.

in the table. It's the most important thing. One point, two

:11:06.:11:14.

points coming in the feature you can see this. Rangers into the last

:11:15.:11:17.

eight of the Scottish cup after coming from behind to beat Greenock

:11:18.:11:23.

Morton 2-1. Martyn Waghorn won and for Rangers in their first match

:11:24.:11:26.

after the departure of Mark Warburton, their manager, last week.

:11:27.:11:32.

And in the six Nations Scotland were narrowly beaten by France in Paris,

:11:33.:11:37.

their tenth successive defeat in the French capital. Scotland twice went

:11:38.:11:42.

ahead through tries from Stuart hog and this one from Tim Swinson. But

:11:43.:11:49.

five penalties from Lopez did the damage with France holding on to

:11:50.:11:55.

win, 22-16. England on the only unbeaten side in the tournament. The

:11:56.:12:00.

headlines at 1030. Chloe. Thanks, Will.

:12:01.:12:09.

Widespread drug use, a lack of control, door

:12:10.:12:11.

alarms that don't go off, a hole in an internal security

:12:12.:12:16.

fence, prisoners possibly sneaking out to collect drugs or other

:12:17.:12:20.

contraband thrown over the perimeter fence,

:12:21.:12:24.

inmates incapacitated by drugs, threatening staff....and in one

:12:25.:12:26.

particularly disturbing scene - a prison officer having convulsions

:12:27.:12:28.

on the floor after accidentally inhaling spice, a cheap and stronger

:12:29.:12:31.

That's what the BBC discovered when it carried out secret filming

:12:32.:12:37.

So does that reflect what goes on in jails across the country?

:12:38.:14:41.

We can speak now to James Bell, who has been in and out

:14:42.:14:45.

of prison for 26 years - he was last inside in April,

:14:46.:14:48.

and was addicted to Spice on his last two times in prison.

:14:49.:14:51.

James Parker is from the Rehabilitation for

:14:52.:14:52.

And David, who spent more than 20 years working as a prison officer

:14:53.:14:59.

and has seen first-hand what happens to people who take the drug.

:15:00.:15:01.

He doesn't want us to use his surname.

:15:02.:15:05.

Also we can speak to Bill, who has got in touch, he is a viewer who has

:15:06.:15:13.

been in and out of prison for most of his life and was lost inside

:15:14.:15:17.

prison just over three months ago. Thank you all for coming to talk to

:15:18.:15:22.

us. I want to speak to Bill first, if we can. You were last in prison

:15:23.:15:29.

three months ago. What was it like them, compared to the last time you

:15:30.:15:32.

were in prison which I understand was a number of years ago? I started

:15:33.:15:40.

prison in 1976 right up to 2006, I've spent 26 years of my life in

:15:41.:15:44.

most prisons in the country, I was in Strangeways and everything. I

:15:45.:15:49.

stayed out for ten years but I lapsed and I ended up back in

:15:50.:15:52.

Rochester prison. And it traumatised me.

:15:53.:16:03.

The staff were so overworked and under staffed and they don't control

:16:04.:16:08.

the prison. The prisoners control the prison. Spice is rife. Drones

:16:09.:16:14.

are the main cause of drugs coming into prisons and it is a very

:16:15.:16:17.

different environment than what it was in the 70s and 80s and 90s. It

:16:18.:16:25.

actually acts as a deterrent never to go back to prison. It is

:16:26.:16:29.

horrendous. There is a back of positive activities for the inmates

:16:30.:16:33.

to do due to staff shortages. There is a lack of therapy due to staff

:16:34.:16:38.

shortages. There is a lack of lock-in due to staff shortages. And

:16:39.:16:44.

I can't see any way for it changing unless the Government really pull

:16:45.:16:49.

their finger out, you know, and do something and reform the prisons. I

:16:50.:16:55.

can emphasise, I think it was James on there, I tried spice once and I'd

:16:56.:17:01.

never go near the stuff again. It is horrendous stuff. Bill explain to

:17:02.:17:04.

people who have heard of spice, but don't know what it does to you. What

:17:05.:17:13.

effect did it have on you? I smoked cannabis for 41 years and I gave it

:17:14.:17:18.

up two years ago of the but spice, they advertise it as an alternative

:17:19.:17:22.

to cannabis, but it is nothing like cannabis. I believe it is made from

:17:23.:17:31.

fish. I took three dregs and I thought I was going to have a heart

:17:32.:17:36.

attack. I started sweating and I felt really ill. I thought there was

:17:37.:17:41.

no way I'm doing that again. I tried it once. It was Christmas and I'd

:17:42.:17:46.

never do it again. I have seen people change from being positive,

:17:47.:17:51.

fit, healthy, good looking to like, you know, grey, white shells who

:17:52.:17:56.

become extremely violent if they haven't got it. I think it is like

:17:57.:18:00.

crack. I call it green crack because it is so addictive and a lot of

:18:01.:18:04.

prisoners are running around to get it. The reason they are getting it

:18:05.:18:08.

because there is nothing for them to do. Sometimes you're locked up for

:18:09.:18:15.

23 hours a day and it makes you angry and frustrated. I have seen

:18:16.:18:18.

some people, they have been on spice and they get involved in therapy

:18:19.:18:22.

things and they change. And they go to work and they change. But because

:18:23.:18:28.

of the under staffing and I think, no, listen, years ago, I fought

:18:29.:18:33.

prison officers, it was us and them, but now I sympathize with the prison

:18:34.:18:37.

officers because they're losing control. Nobody above them is

:18:38.:18:43.

listening and I feel sorry for them and I've noticed while I was in

:18:44.:18:47.

Rochester there is a lot of young prison officers starting, but within

:18:48.:18:50.

three months they'd leave because they couldn't cope with the job.

:18:51.:18:55.

They would come in thinking they were going to do some good and help

:18:56.:19:02.

prisoners reform. I want to bring in James. You mentioned James Bell and

:19:03.:19:07.

he was talking about you used spice. Can you identify with what Bill was

:19:08.:19:11.

saying, the effect it has on you? Totally. I think Bill hit the nail

:19:12.:19:15.

on the head just how prison has changed over the years. I remember

:19:16.:19:19.

in the 90s it was different. There was still a drug problem, it is just

:19:20.:19:24.

that things have got more chaotic and the drugs have changed. Again,

:19:25.:19:29.

staff shortages. You know, all these elements are just creating more

:19:30.:19:33.

problems. For me personally, my experience of spice was to pass the

:19:34.:19:41.

time, you know, because I battled addiction for 25 years that was all

:19:42.:19:47.

I knew, drugs. And prison to me was just an occupational hazard really

:19:48.:19:51.

and that was a way of making money in prison, you know, using drugs,

:19:52.:19:57.

using spice, selling spice, and I think that's the mentality now of

:19:58.:20:00.

the prison system where people who are in prison and for the first

:20:01.:20:05.

time, you know, I have been clean now for under a year. So, but again,

:20:06.:20:10.

it was the staff shortages because I wanted help. I went into prison the

:20:11.:20:15.

last time and it was like wow, this is chaos. So halfs it like? Give us

:20:16.:20:21.

an idea of an average day on your wing in prison? Average day. Pretty

:20:22.:20:26.

mundane really. You're up for breakfast. If you're going to

:20:27.:20:30.

education, again, which is one day and I have done it that many times

:20:31.:20:36.

over the years, I'd stop listening or people just weren't participating

:20:37.:20:39.

in the education and it was basic so it became bored. If I was let out my

:20:40.:20:45.

cell, if not, I would be banged up for 23 hours a day just watching TV

:20:46.:20:49.

so I wanted something to talk me away from that. It is that escapism?

:20:50.:20:56.

For me, it was. David was a prison officer for 24 years and left over a

:20:57.:21:00.

year ago. What Bill and James are telling us is effectively prisoners

:21:01.:21:06.

are running prisons. There are not enough prison officers there and it

:21:07.:21:09.

is out of control. Do colleagues agree with that? Absolutely, yes,

:21:10.:21:17.

100%. I started 24 years ago and we would have four members of staff on

:21:18.:21:21.

a landing. Now you're lucky if there is one. So, I speak to one of my

:21:22.:21:28.

friends and he's telling me they're unlocking the wing that I used to

:21:29.:21:34.

work on with four members of staff to unlock 200 prisoners. It's

:21:35.:21:39.

frightening. Some people will be watching thinking how on earth,

:21:40.:21:42.

James has already said, 85% of people he believes at the jail he

:21:43.:21:47.

was in, were on spice. How is that quantity getting into prison? It

:21:48.:21:54.

comes over the wall. It comes in through parcels. It comes in hidden,

:21:55.:22:04.

secreted in prisoners. And the prison officers know this, but are

:22:05.:22:07.

simply overwhelmed and can't do anything about it? The cuts in the

:22:08.:22:16.

staffing have changed the searching policies. They do get very good

:22:17.:22:22.

results with target searching. There is no random searching anymore. Or

:22:23.:22:27.

there wasn't when I was there. It is slowly, slowly being eroded and

:22:28.:22:31.

yeah, I agree with the two other guys. The prisoners are taking

:22:32.:22:40.

control of the prisons. James, I want to bring you in. Is

:22:41.:22:44.

this simply about numbers of prison officers? We've got a former prison

:22:45.:22:50.

officer there and we have heard from two former inmates saying this is

:22:51.:22:52.

about numbers. Do you think it is about numbers or is it more than

:22:53.:22:56.

that? Lack of numbers, as a charity that runs drug and alcohol treatment

:22:57.:23:00.

services we can't have our services properly enabled so for instance the

:23:01.:23:03.

experience that James had, even if he was in a prison that offered a

:23:04.:23:07.

treatment programme there isn't the officers there to unlock everybody

:23:08.:23:14.

so they can participate in the rehabilitation side of prison. Lots

:23:15.:23:19.

of prisoners look for help. If we haven't got the resources there to

:23:20.:23:23.

enable the services, the security, the safety that's there, then as a

:23:24.:23:29.

provider of those services you just get incredibly frustrated and you

:23:30.:23:33.

feel the frustration for the people that you're commissioned to help. We

:23:34.:23:36.

are commissioned to help people like James when he was in prison and I

:23:37.:23:39.

think that's where the whole system needs to review what are we trying

:23:40.:23:43.

to do with prisons the moment? Are we actually looking at what bill

:23:44.:23:47.

tation and rehabilitation so people can change their lives which is our

:23:48.:23:58.

whole focus. Some prisoners in their education if you like, the way to be

:23:59.:24:05.

rehabilitated was to colour this Pepa Pig. Is that unusual? No. Not

:24:06.:24:10.

at all. Or playing cards. That's what we did because again, the staff

:24:11.:24:15.

shortages and I think you go through it that many times. Prison is like a

:24:16.:24:21.

revolving door for a lot of prisoners. It is the same like

:24:22.:24:26.

programme all the time of education. There needs to be rehabilitation and

:24:27.:24:29.

recovery wings and the support really, but it is all the different

:24:30.:24:34.

services in the system which are running from cuts and shortages so

:24:35.:24:39.

then we miss out. The ones who do want to change. I wanted to change.

:24:40.:24:44.

And have done so congratulationsment you turned your life around for the

:24:45.:24:48.

last year. Thank you so much all of you for coming in.

:24:49.:24:55.

You can see that Panorama in full tonight at 8.30pm on BBC One

:24:56.:24:58.

Adele stole the show at the Grammy's overnight -

:24:59.:25:06.

not just for her stunning performance and haul of awards -

:25:07.:25:09.

but also for having to stop her performance as she paid tribute

:25:10.:25:11.

It's the second time she's faced technical hitches whilst

:25:12.:25:15.

I know it's live TV, I'm sorry, I need to start again.

:25:16.:25:24.

I'm sorry for swearing and I'm sorry for starting again.

:25:25.:25:28.

I'm sorry, I can't mess this up for him.

:25:29.:25:37.

Her second attempt was, of course, flawless,

:25:38.:25:53.

and received a standing ovation from the audience

:25:54.:25:55.

at the Staples Centre in Los Angeles.

:25:56.:26:01.

She went on to win five - count them - five Grammys,

:26:02.:26:04.

but said Beyonce should have won album of the year over her.

:26:05.:26:07.

Producers Danger Mouse, Samuel Dickson...

:26:08.:26:14.

My artist of my life is Beyonce and this album, for

:26:15.:26:19.

me, the Lemonade album, was just so monumental.

:26:20.:26:22.

And the way that you may me and my friends feel,

:26:23.:26:34.

the way you make my black friends feel, is empowering,

:26:35.:26:36.

and you make them stand up for themselves and I love you.

:26:37.:26:39.

There is a curse that will be broken.

:26:40.:26:56.

My intention for the film and album was to create a body of work that

:26:57.:27:03.

would give a voice to our pain, our struggles, our darkness and our

:27:04.:27:06.

To confront issues that make us uncomfortable.

:27:07.:27:10.

I just want to thank President Agent Orange

:27:11.:27:16.

for perpetuating all of the evil that you have perpetuated

:27:17.:27:18.

Shout outs to every independent artist out there.

:27:19.:27:23.

Shout outs to Soundcloud for holding me down.

:27:24.:27:25.

That was Chicago's Chance the Rapper, who won three Grammys,

:27:26.:27:32.

By the way, this is Gnarls Barkley singer CeeLo Green, who you'll

:27:33.:27:45.

know for his song Crazy, as he arrived at the Grammys last

:27:46.:27:48.

night in a particularly crazy outfit - part Tin Man,

:27:49.:27:51.

And, of course, it was also the BATFAs last night.

:27:52.:28:06.

La La land, the Hollywood musical, was the big winner with five awards,

:28:07.:28:09.

including best film and best actress for Emma Stone.

:28:10.:28:11.

When I was a young kid, my mother would

:28:12.:28:24.

take me to the Al-Anon meetings for children of alcoholics

:28:25.:28:27.

and there would be lots of kids there and they would re-enact the

:28:28.:28:36.

person at their home who they were trying to understand.

:28:37.:28:38.

It was therapy, but it was acting, and it

:28:39.:28:40.

And acting has sort of been that the ever since.

:28:41.:28:44.

They can entertain, they can terrify, they can take us

:28:45.:28:49.

to worlds of the imagination, they can make us laugh and they can tell

:28:50.:28:52.

something about the real world we live in.

:28:53.:28:55.

August answers that question so brilliantly.

:28:56.:28:59.

Because what he did is he said that our

:29:00.:29:05.

that lives mattered as African Americans.

:29:06.:29:15.

And the BAFTA goes to Dev Patel for Lion.

:29:16.:29:17.

Please welcome to the stage Mel Brooks.

:29:18.:29:32.

I think BAFTA has made good choices to diet, especially me.

:29:33.:29:36.

I want to apologise to the Duke and the Duchess and Prince Philip

:29:37.:29:39.

There is the costume! I'm guessing it is a mask. I'm guessing he just

:29:40.:30:01.

wanted us to talk about it. I guess he has succeeded.

:30:02.:30:06.

Let's get some analysis of all of last night's celebrity

:30:07.:30:09.

news with Hollywood journalist Jeanne Wolf, who watched

:30:10.:30:11.

every second of last night's Grammy awards.

:30:12.:30:12.

Let's talk about Adele. I saw things on Twitter saying she had actually

:30:13.:30:17.

split her award in half. Is that true? It is true. Here is what

:30:18.:30:21.

happens. Once you win the award and we saw when she won that third award

:30:22.:30:26.

how flustered she was and how she almost wanted to give it over to

:30:27.:30:34.

Beyonce and she said she wished she hadn't won it. When you finish, you

:30:35.:30:38.

go backstage and they take photographs of you and you go to the

:30:39.:30:42.

press room and in the press room she appeared with her Grammy in two

:30:43.:30:48.

pieces saying, "This has to go to Beyonce. Album of the year was Lemon

:30:49.:30:57.

in aid." She just felt very funny about it. Of course, she accepted

:30:58.:31:05.

it. Five years ago, she won the five big awards at the Grammys and now,

:31:06.:31:10.

with the album 25, she has done it again.

:31:11.:31:14.

Do we know if Beyonce took the bit of the award that she snapped off?

:31:15.:31:18.

Well, I think we'll read all about that in the morning! I'm sure

:31:19.:31:22.

they'll meet up at parties if Beyonce in her condition feels like

:31:23.:31:27.

going dancing! But in any case, no Adele wanted to make a very public,

:31:28.:31:35.

very talked about gesture. Talking about Beyonce of course, in her

:31:36.:31:38.

condition, she is several months pregnant. She sat on a chair and it

:31:39.:31:43.

went back in one of he amazing performances. It was incredible.

:31:44.:31:46.

Tell us about the other big winners of the night.

:31:47.:31:54.

You will read the full list of winners, the once people are talking

:31:55.:32:03.

about our Dell and Beyonce. The others were evenly spread around and

:32:04.:32:07.

there was a lot of talk about how political the night would be and how

:32:08.:32:10.

the performances would be, there were tributes and performances,

:32:11.:32:16.

winners all over the place. There is a two our show before the show goes

:32:17.:32:20.

on air, so many awards are given out that night. Beyonce did win a couple

:32:21.:32:25.

of Grammy awards but when it came to the big ones, it was all Adele. You

:32:26.:32:31.

know that she started singing her tribute song to George Michael and

:32:32.:32:36.

felt that she was off key, said a swear word, apologised more than you

:32:37.:32:41.

would expect from an artist, and Sergei had to start again, and when

:32:42.:32:46.

she did she was amazing. So all the conversation today, everyone else is

:32:47.:32:55.

eclipsed, in their own minds, you will have heard the speech is, it

:32:56.:33:00.

takes a lot to stick to being a musician. Your pride in your music,

:33:01.:33:09.

and the music industry puts barriers at every point. And she is a mother,

:33:10.:33:17.

she does this all with a child. They you for speaking to us.

:33:18.:33:20.

Legendary director Ken Loach picked up the award for Best British film

:33:21.:33:23.

for I, Daniel Blake, about the UK's welfare system.

:33:24.:33:25.

You can see our exclusive interview with him last

:33:26.:33:27.

week on the programme page - bbc.co.uk/victoria.

:33:28.:33:33.

We are a little late again, but here is Ben with the news. Thank you. A

:33:34.:33:44.

BBC investigation has found major security failings at a privately run

:33:45.:33:49.

prison in north-east England, panorama found a number of problems

:33:50.:33:57.

including inmates using drugs, the organisation that runs the prison

:33:58.:34:01.

says safety is as priority. The Ministry of Justice is to

:34:02.:34:04.

investigate the footage and says the government is committed to reforming

:34:05.:34:08.

prisons. The Co-op bank is up for sale. It has over 4 million

:34:09.:34:14.

customers but almost collapsed in 2013 after financial problems. Since

:34:15.:34:18.

then it has been run by private investment companies who say they

:34:19.:34:21.

have now made considerable progress in turning the business around.

:34:22.:34:27.

Almost 200,000 people in Northern California are being evacuated from

:34:28.:34:31.

their homes after the tallest dam in the USA was weakened by heavy

:34:32.:34:36.

rainfall. Officials feared the Oroville dam could be about to

:34:37.:34:39.

collapse after a giant hole developed in the overflow channel.

:34:40.:34:44.

Crews using helicopters have dropped rocks to fill the hole in the

:34:45.:34:47.

spillway and the excess water has stopped flowing. That's the latest

:34:48.:34:56.

news. Join me for BBC Newsroom live at 11am. Now the sport with Will.

:34:57.:35:01.

Breaking news, it has been confirmed that Joe Root will be named

:35:02.:35:07.

England's test captain at 11am. The Yorkshire batsman will succeed

:35:08.:35:09.

Alastair Cook who resigned after more than four years in charge last

:35:10.:35:13.

week. A press conference will be held at Headingley on Wednesday.

:35:14.:35:18.

Official figures today show that 39% of players in the English football

:35:19.:35:22.

league last season were not drugs tested by UK anti-doping.

:35:23.:35:39.

The FA say it prioritised its anti-doping programme at the elite

:35:40.:35:43.

end. Claudio Ranieri says he may have been too loyal to his Leicester

:35:44.:35:45.

players with Ed Premier League title defence now a relegation battle,

:35:46.:35:47.

they one point above the bottom three after losing yesterday at

:35:48.:35:49.

Swansea. France beat Scotland 22-16 in the six Nations, the tenth time

:35:50.:35:52.

in a row Scotland have lost in Paris. England on the only unbeaten

:35:53.:35:55.

side in the tournament after two games. More news on the BBC News

:35:56.:35:56.

channel throughout the day. You. Parents have told this programme

:35:57.:35:59.

they were conned out of thousands of pounds by an organisation that

:36:00.:36:02.

claimed it could win The Parents' Voice London offered

:36:03.:36:05.

McKenzie Friend services. They're people who generally aren't

:36:06.:36:07.

legally trained and are meant to provide support for those

:36:08.:36:10.

going through the family courts. Two of the company's directors,

:36:11.:36:12.

David Bright and Claire Mann, were jailed last year for perverting

:36:13.:36:15.

the course of justice. There are now calls for regulations

:36:16.:36:28.

of McKenzie Friends. We can speak to Amanda MacPherson, herself a

:36:29.:36:33.

McKenzie Friend charges clients, and Derek Sweeting QC from the bar

:36:34.:36:37.

Council which represents barristers in England and Wales.

:36:38.:36:42.

People may not know who McKenzie Friends R. They are helping people

:36:43.:36:52.

who go through any court and represent themselves, they have

:36:53.:36:56.

chosen to do away with traditional representation, perhaps because of

:36:57.:36:59.

cost or perhaps because they choose to speak for themselves. And you do

:37:00.:37:07.

what, fill-in forms? Yes, McKenzie Friends will complete forms for

:37:08.:37:11.

parents, will take them through the process, often give them more

:37:12.:37:15.

support than a solicitor would, and can attend court with them and sit

:37:16.:37:20.

beside them, often not able to speak directly to the court or to the

:37:21.:37:26.

judge, but sometimes given permission to do that. What are you

:37:27.:37:31.

charging? Most of the advice I give, in fact all the advice I give is

:37:32.:37:36.

free. I don't charge a penny for advising throughout the case. But I

:37:37.:37:40.

do charge for its direct work. 45p an hour is my rate. And expenses

:37:41.:37:47.

like travel which is half my hourly rate. Which is a fraction of the

:37:48.:37:52.

cost that parents would incur through a solicitor or a barrister.

:37:53.:37:58.

Derek, what are your concerns with McKenzie Friends services? This is

:37:59.:38:02.

an area of operation caused by the withdrawal of legal aid and what you

:38:03.:38:07.

are getting is someone who people don't appreciate is not regulated,

:38:08.:38:11.

that means no training, no knowledge of the law, not insured, no redress

:38:12.:38:16.

if things go wrong you can't report them to the legal ombudsman, there

:38:17.:38:20.

is no regulator and you are not getting anyone who can stand up and

:38:21.:38:24.

speak for you in court. That is a misconception. And often, when they

:38:25.:38:29.

do charge, not all McKenzie Friends tube and when they do they sometimes

:38:30.:38:34.

charge similar amounts to what a barrister or solicitor would charge.

:38:35.:38:39.

Do you have any qualifications? I don't, I have none. Some people

:38:40.:38:46.

might be worried by that. Of course. They may well. Anyone looking for a

:38:47.:38:50.

McKenzie Friend should check out the person they want to use, ask them

:38:51.:38:55.

what their experience is, ask if they can speak to clients who have

:38:56.:38:59.

used them before and they should be absolutely confident that this

:39:00.:39:03.

person knows what they are doing. Should there be greater regulation?

:39:04.:39:08.

This is what we are waiting to hear. We're waiting to hear if there will

:39:09.:39:13.

be greater regulation. Myself, I wouldn't be averse to regulation. I

:39:14.:39:20.

think it should be done in close consultation with clients, people

:39:21.:39:25.

looking to use McKenzie Friends, and McKenzie Friends themselves and the

:39:26.:39:30.

judiciary. In my experience judges often welcome the assistance of a

:39:31.:39:35.

McKenzie Friend, especially in cases where both parties are not

:39:36.:39:41.

represented, they are on their own. What the judiciary also expressed

:39:42.:39:44.

their reservations about is whether there ought to be paid McKenzie

:39:45.:39:50.

Friends because this is one area where unscrupulous people like the

:39:51.:39:54.

ones we heard about, find it easy to operate because there is no

:39:55.:39:58.

supervision, there is no regulation. But then it helps people who don't

:39:59.:40:03.

have much money and can't afford enormous legal bills that sometimes

:40:04.:40:08.

people face. That is a misconception, of course there are

:40:09.:40:11.

McKenzie Friends who are competent and experienced like Amanda and they

:40:12.:40:15.

perform a good service for many people. But and is a misconception

:40:16.:40:19.

to say it is so expensive that many people can't afford a lawyer. You

:40:20.:40:25.

can instruct a barrister directly. The charges are often in the same

:40:26.:40:31.

sort of area you would pay for a paid McKenzie Friend. And it doesn't

:40:32.:40:37.

look convinced. That's not the case. I've had parents approach me to say

:40:38.:40:43.

that they have had solicitors wanting ?250 to read a letter and

:40:44.:40:46.

advise them on their next step. That's not affordable for many

:40:47.:40:51.

people. It isn't true, parents often face many years in court, especially

:40:52.:40:57.

when involved in protracted cases to spend time with their children and

:40:58.:41:01.

they face thousands upon thousands of pounds which adds insult to

:41:02.:41:05.

injury when they are not spending time with their children. These are

:41:06.:41:12.

comments coming in. Darren says he used a McKenzie Friend and they were

:41:13.:41:17.

brilliant. When e-mail says that they are experiencing the damage

:41:18.:41:19.

that McKenzie Friends can do and that it led to 18 months of hell for

:41:20.:41:23.

their family. Thank you both for coming in. You can watch our

:41:24.:41:32.

complete report on McKenzie Friends on our website.

:41:33.:41:36.

When you see an offer on display at the supermarket

:41:37.:41:39.

you expect to receive it when you get to the tills.

:41:40.:41:41.

But that wasn't happening - and now Tesco says it will check

:41:42.:41:44.

the prices of all items in every store after an investigation found

:41:45.:41:47.

customers were being short-changed on promotions.

:41:48.:41:49.

An undercover reporter for BBC Inside Out was overcharged

:41:50.:41:51.

on multi-buy offers at two-thirds of stores visited.

:41:52.:41:53.

cases multi-buy deals were still being advertised

:41:54.:41:56.

on the shelves months after they had expired.

:41:57.:41:59.

Most of us are, and Tesco knows it, too.

:42:00.:42:16.

That's why the shelves at Britain's biggest

:42:17.:42:17.

supermarket are full of special offers.

:42:18.:42:22.

And we all take it for granted that the

:42:23.:42:27.

price we see on the shelf is the price we will pay at the till,

:42:28.:42:31.

But what if things don't quite add up when you get home and

:42:32.:42:35.

I've just bought a few bits at Tesco and I'm

:42:36.:42:38.

sure these products were on special offer.

:42:39.:42:40.

But according to my receipt, I've paid full price.

:42:41.:42:45.

I've paid 60% more than the deal on the shelf.

:42:46.:42:52.

So does this happen more often than we think?

:42:53.:43:03.

Fergus Muirhead is a consumer journalist who says there's clearly

:43:04.:43:07.

something wrong in the way offers have been delivered.

:43:08.:43:09.

And Catherine Shuttleworth, is from Savvy Marketing, which works

:43:10.:43:11.

Welcome to you all. First, Fergus, are you surprised that this is

:43:12.:43:21.

happening? I think it has been happening for a long time. It's

:43:22.:43:25.

quite often the case, I think, that you don't get what you think you are

:43:26.:43:29.

getting in supermarkets. That is what it is so important to check

:43:30.:43:33.

your receipt when you leave to make sure you paid what you thought you

:43:34.:43:37.

were going to for the goods you bought. There is no question that

:43:38.:43:41.

supermarkets make mistakes. I'm surprised that a number of Tesco

:43:42.:43:47.

shops are making the mistake, it's a big number and I'm surprised it's

:43:48.:43:50.

happening so often that it is important that as consumers we check

:43:51.:43:55.

what we have bored when we are at the till, that the three for two or

:43:56.:44:01.

the two-for-one offers have been priced correctly. That's all well

:44:02.:44:05.

and good when I shop alone but when my children with me and they are

:44:06.:44:08.

arguing and they want some chocolate and they are being annoying, or you

:44:09.:44:13.

are an old person and you get confused by things why should it be

:44:14.:44:17.

the responsibility of the consumer to check their receipts? I'm not

:44:18.:44:22.

saying it is the consumer's responsibility, they have to check

:44:23.:44:25.

and they should make sure what they have spent is right although Tesco

:44:26.:44:29.

should take part of the blame, they've obviously got sloppy

:44:30.:44:33.

management going on and offers that should be taken off the shelves

:44:34.:44:38.

should be taken off because it is absolutely their responsibility and

:44:39.:44:43.

they need to do something about it. Guy, what tactics do we need to be

:44:44.:44:47.

aware of that supermarkets used to make us spend more? Not all offers

:44:48.:44:53.

are good, and multi-byte offers like three for two or something that

:44:54.:44:58.

would normally cost ?1 50 and two of them would cost ?2, if you were

:44:59.:45:02.

going to buy two of them anyway, a good deal but often they tempted to

:45:03.:45:06.

buy an extra product when you didn't want it. Take fresh produce, meat or

:45:07.:45:12.

cheese which could go off. If you buy a second or third item and it

:45:13.:45:15.

goes off because you don't have the time it's not a good deal. Much

:45:16.:45:19.

better offers are two for one because if you were going to buy

:45:20.:45:24.

something anyway it is free or a genuine reduction. Or if you buy

:45:25.:45:28.

something like toothpaste which has a shelf life it does not matter if

:45:29.:45:35.

you get an extra one. Are sometimes stocked up, the problem is where

:45:36.:45:36.

it's going to go off. Tesco told us, "We take great care

:45:37.:45:40.

to deliver clear and accurate price labels for our customers so they can

:45:41.:45:44.

make informed decisions We are disappointed that errors

:45:45.:45:46.

occurred and will be working with the stores involved

:45:47.:45:50.

to reinforce our responsibilities It is an issue of trust, isn't it,

:45:51.:45:58.

between massive stores, where it is hugely competitive now and the

:45:59.:46:01.

consumer? Absolutely and Tesco will be really frustrated by this and I

:46:02.:46:04.

would imagine that they are out checking the stores today as will be

:46:05.:46:07.

their competitors. This isn't just something that happens in Tesco, it

:46:08.:46:12.

will happen across the whole of the retail estate and that's important

:46:13.:46:15.

to remember is the scale and the size of the retailers. An average

:46:16.:46:20.

supermarket will have 60,000 individual lines and there will be

:46:21.:46:23.

1,000 price changes a week, prices will go up as well as down and

:46:24.:46:27.

promotions will finish and they are delivered by human beings and there

:46:28.:46:30.

is error in there and it is important the businesses are well

:46:31.:46:35.

run so customers can trust them. We believe that Tesco won't rip us off.

:46:36.:46:39.

75% of us trust Tesco and this will be a worry for them today and they

:46:40.:46:42.

will want to make sure they within the trust straight back.

:46:43.:46:46.

Thank you for coming in and talking to us.

:46:47.:46:51.

The full investigation can be seen in some English regions tonight

:46:52.:46:53.

on Inside Out at 7.30pm on BBC One, and on the BBC iPlayer.

:46:54.:47:00.

The children of a couple who died of cancer

:47:01.:47:03.

within days have released this heartbreaking photo to show

:47:04.:47:06.

the world how much they loved each other and were together to the end.

:47:07.:47:15.

Tens of thousands of people living below the tallest dam

:47:16.:47:17.

in the United States have left their homes because of fears

:47:18.:47:20.

that an emergency overflow channel could give way.

:47:21.:47:22.

Weeks of heavy rain and snow have left the Oroville dam

:47:23.:47:24.

in Northern California at almost full capacity.

:47:25.:47:26.

Engineers have been trying to release some of the water

:47:27.:47:28.

and plug a hole in the channel by dropping rocks from helicopters.

:47:29.:47:31.

A little earlier, authorities explained the nature

:47:32.:47:33.

Essentially what we're looking at is approximately a 30-foot wall

:47:34.:47:41.

of water that would be coming out of the lake.

:47:42.:47:53.

Not the lake drained, but a 30-foot wall of water.

:47:54.:47:55.

That is why we took the appropriate measures that we did.

:47:56.:47:58.

And implemented the evacuation process that we had going.

:47:59.:48:01.

In Butte County, what we're looking at is approximately 35,000 residents

:48:02.:48:04.

Yuba County, we're looking at 65,000 underneath an evacuation order.

:48:05.:48:07.

Yuba city, 76,000 under evacuation warning.

:48:08.:48:09.

We can speak to two people who had to leave their homes.

:48:10.:48:17.

Veronica Ruiv, who is one of the 70,000 people

:48:18.:48:19.

She's travelling in a convoy of five cars with her family,

:48:20.:48:23.

And to Xavier Goeas, who has been evacuated

:48:24.:48:32.

He's travelling with his father and other members of family.

:48:33.:48:36.

Veronica, are you still in your car? No, not anymore. I just made it to a

:48:37.:48:45.

hotel. So how, are you in a safe area right now? Yes, we are in

:48:46.:48:52.

Sacramento right now. Tell us how the authorities let you know you had

:48:53.:48:55.

to get out and how much time you had? I found out through Facebook

:48:56.:49:02.

through the Facebook channels of the emergency system of Yuba City and

:49:03.:49:06.

all of our surrounding friends from the Mary's vil area who are closer

:49:07.:49:12.

to the river which is, has been flooded before. So, they are at a

:49:13.:49:21.

much higher risk than Yuba, the Marysvil area. Were you worried? My

:49:22.:49:30.

brother was at the tennis courts by the river. It is at a park located

:49:31.:49:36.

next to, where the river runs through. I was worried about him. We

:49:37.:49:42.

got in our car and we took off the whole family and we went to him and

:49:43.:49:47.

we picked him up and I read the official report by the National

:49:48.:49:52.

Weather Service about how the damage to the dam could have a critical

:49:53.:49:57.

failure or something like that in less than 60 minutes and the streets

:49:58.:50:03.

filled with cars and they were just driving erratically and we just had

:50:04.:50:07.

to get out of there. A sense of panic. Veronica, was it the same as

:50:08.:50:12.

you were leaving with all the cars? Once I left the parkway of my home I

:50:13.:50:18.

realised that the situation was much more serious than what I expected.

:50:19.:50:22.

How much time did you have? We said your three daughters were in the

:50:23.:50:26.

car. It is difficult to get girls to do anything quickly. Did you have to

:50:27.:50:31.

pack bags quickly? They moved much faster than I did it time! Do you

:50:32.:50:36.

know what they packed? I spoke to a woman who had to leave her home

:50:37.:50:43.

because of wildfires and she told me her six-year-old daughter packed 12

:50:44.:50:48.

pairs of pyjamas and nothing else? My oldest daughter did not pack very

:50:49.:50:53.

much! My youngest packed all of her art stuff. I don't know why, but she

:50:54.:50:59.

is an artist and she likes to pack her crayons and my middle child says

:51:00.:51:03.

she didn't bring anything besides her iPhone! Maybe that's all she

:51:04.:51:07.

needs. Are you getting good communication about how long you

:51:08.:51:11.

have to stay away and whether the dam is likely to burst? I checked on

:51:12.:51:18.

Facebook and it's still mandatory to evacuate from Yuba City so they have

:51:19.:51:22.

not let us know when we're able to go back. What information are you

:51:23.:51:30.

getting? We haven't got, what I do know is when I left town that the

:51:31.:51:36.

evacuation order would be in effect until 4.15 tomorrow or today now on

:51:37.:51:42.

Monday. However, I watched the news report and he changed his language

:51:43.:51:48.

that the sheriff of the county, he chaunged it from 4.15pm to until

:51:49.:51:52.

further notice. So I mean that sort of hints to me that the situation

:51:53.:51:56.

could be getting worse or it might just remain where I can't go home

:51:57.:52:04.

until a longer time. Thank you both for joining us. Good

:52:05.:52:09.

luck. I hope you get back to your homes soon. Stay safe and thank you

:52:10.:52:11.

for talking to us. The channel was weakened by heavy

:52:12.:52:28.

rainfall. I don't know why we were talking about that. We have just

:52:29.:52:30.

spoken to those people. The children of a terminally ill

:52:31.:52:35.

couple who died of cancer within days of each other have

:52:36.:52:38.

shared this moving photograph of their parents'

:52:39.:52:40.

last moments together. Now it shows 57-year-old

:52:41.:52:47.

Mike Bennet and his 50-year-old wife Julie holding hands

:52:48.:52:49.

in a Merseyside hospice. Mr Bennet died last Monday and his

:52:50.:52:50.

wife died late Saturday night. We can speak to a friend of

:52:51.:52:57.

the family Heather Heaton Gallagher. Heather, it is a really moving

:52:58.:53:07.

picture. I can't imagine what the family is going through right now.

:53:08.:53:11.

It must have been incredibly difficult to make that decision to

:53:12.:53:16.

release it? Yes. I think I will tell you how the photograph came around.

:53:17.:53:21.

Both Julia and Mike were in arrow park Hospital. They have done a

:53:22.:53:24.

marvellous job. Mike had become really unwell and he was blue

:53:25.:53:29.

lighted into Arrow Park and the nursing team have been brilliant.

:53:30.:53:32.

Mike has been unwell for threeiers and he has been in and out of care

:53:33.:53:37.

and he has been fighting this battle and had various operations and

:53:38.:53:41.

treatment and Julie became really unwell between April last year and

:53:42.:53:47.

the diagnosis in May, both they different kind of cancer, you know,

:53:48.:53:51.

you couldn't write it, could you? So obviously they were in arrow park

:53:52.:53:56.

together and Julie became unwell and admitted herself and the hospital

:53:57.:53:59.

staff pushed the beds together knowing that Mike was nearing the

:54:00.:54:03.

end. The photograph was taken by a relative, by one of the aunties and

:54:04.:54:07.

it was purely because it was a beautiful photograph. These were two

:54:08.:54:13.

people who were pea ins a pod and loved each other detail crisis and

:54:14.:54:15.

they brought their kids up with that. They are a solid family unit.

:54:16.:54:20.

The kids released the photograph because, because of who they are and

:54:21.:54:24.

where they sit-in the community. Everyone was asking all the time how

:54:25.:54:29.

is Julie? How is Mike? What's the news? What's the update? Where are

:54:30.:54:36.

we? Can we do anything? It was to help people understand, it was a

:54:37.:54:40.

case of no, dad has passed and this was taken of the it was done out of

:54:41.:54:43.

love and sharing the photograph and the image and they were OK and they

:54:44.:54:47.

were there together. That's how the photograph came around, but we

:54:48.:54:51.

didn't expect the response we've from everyone around the world. It

:54:52.:54:55.

is really overwhelmed everyone and we are astonished and we are

:54:56.:54:58.

grateful for the support that the family has got at the moment. You

:54:59.:55:02.

say from around the world. So have you got people getting in touch from

:55:03.:55:06.

well beyond these shores? Oaks far and beyond. We have set-up a Just

:55:07.:55:10.

Giving page and that's around raising funds to help the three kids

:55:11.:55:17.

Luke, Hannah and Olly to fulfil the dreams and ambitions that Julie and

:55:18.:55:21.

Mike thud had. They didn't want Luke to drop out of university and Hannah

:55:22.:55:25.

to end college and go into a jobment they want them to continue their

:55:26.:55:29.

studies of the that's what the fund was set-up for. The fund has grown

:55:30.:55:33.

and it has expanded beyond our belief and people are reaching out.

:55:34.:55:39.

The stories come from all walks of life. There was a chap from Canada

:55:40.:55:44.

who said his brother, his brother-in-law was in the same

:55:45.:55:48.

situation and he lost both his parents. There is another family

:55:49.:55:53.

from America and they said, you know, I was that kid. I lost my

:55:54.:55:57.

parents when I was young. We get, you know, there is a pensioner from

:55:58.:56:01.

Scotland who made contact and said, "I can't afford to give you any

:56:02.:56:05.

money, but I'm going to knit something and I'll put it towards

:56:06.:56:09.

the auction." There was a homeless guy in Liverpool at the weekend who

:56:10.:56:13.

heard the conversations and all he collected that day, that ?2.56 he

:56:14.:56:19.

wanted it to go to the kids. He knew the impact that these kids faced.

:56:20.:56:23.

That's amazing. That must be immense comfort to their children. I know

:56:24.:56:26.

that you've spoken to them. What have they been saying to you? They

:56:27.:56:33.

can't believe it. They're astoweded. You know, when I share some of the

:56:34.:56:40.

comments, they just can't believe the support and it has really struck

:56:41.:56:46.

a chord. It helps them understand this is life changing for them. This

:56:47.:56:50.

huge community has got together and put their arms around them and said,

:56:51.:56:54.

it is a bit pants right now, but it will be OK. It helping with their

:56:55.:57:05.

grieving do you think? I don't think, money doesn't help with

:57:06.:57:09.

grieving. It will take time for them to sink in. Monday morning and Olly

:57:10.:57:15.

wanted to go to school today. Your mum is not there and she is not

:57:16.:57:20.

ready to pack lunch or not given you money for your school dinners. Did

:57:21.:57:23.

you clean your shoes and where is your diary? Have I signed it? Those

:57:24.:57:30.

are the things that will impact the kids. They have not kaunties and

:57:31.:57:34.

aUngles staying with them and they're supporting them and as the

:57:35.:57:40.

kids get used to this, the aim is we keep them in the family home

:57:41.:57:44.

together. Mike and Julie have just brought up three amazing kids. They

:57:45.:57:49.

are solid as a unit together. You will find Hannah, will whip Olly

:57:50.:57:54.

into shape and you will find Luke will be giving Hannah that hug as a

:57:55.:57:58.

big brother does and they're there for each other now. Thank you for

:57:59.:58:06.

speaking to us. Heather. What's the Just Giving number up to? ?112,000.

:58:07.:58:12.

That's amazing. From everyone in the family, thank you. Heather, thank

:58:13.:58:19.

you. Thanks for your company. Joanna will be presenting the programme

:58:20.:58:27.

tomorrow. You can reach out to us on Twitter.

:58:28.:58:32.

# I knew you were trouble when you walked in

:58:33.:58:36.

# Now I'm lying on the cold, hard ground

:58:37.:58:40.