19/07/2017 Victoria Derbyshire

Hello, it's Wednesday, it's 9 o'clock, I'm Victoria Derbyshire.

This morning we're in North Kensington,

five weeks since a huge fire engufled the Grenfell Tower block -

claiming the lives of at least 80 people and destroying the lives

We saw a lot with our own eyes. We saw friends, families...

The people in my building were really close to me and they were

like family. Seeing them go wasn't good. You're so brave. I feel like

when you have to switch the TV on so you can have light when you're

sleeping so you don't have to think about a little boy that died in your

room. This programme has now discovered

that burning cladding on Grenfell Tower would have

released 14 times more heat than a key government

safety test allows - Kensington and Chelsea

council are meeting for the first time tonight

where the new council leader will officially take up her post,

but with many residents having lost faith in the council there are some

calls for a snap election. Nothing can improve for us. It is

getting worse and worse every day. It's worse because by now I should

have received counselling. I haven't. I haven't.

This morning we'll hear more from survivors

of the tower who have never told their story publicly before.

This morning we're in North Kensington,

We will talk to survivors and members of the council. There are

worries that the council meeting will not go ahead because there are

planned protests. This programme has now discovered

that burning cladding on Grenfell Tower would have

released 14 times more heat The BBC has learned that the type

of cladding used on Grenfell Tower would have released 14 times

the amount of heat that is allowed under a key government

safety tests when burned. Research conducted by the University

of Leeds suggests the energy emitted from the cladding and insulation

would have been equivalent It added the cladding's plastic

core would have burned The contractors who fitted

the cladding and insulation said A big clean-up operation

is taking place in Cornwall, after flash floods

swept through the village Residents reported hailstones

the size of 50 pence pieces, and the village was divided in two

by a four foot torrent of water. Engineers will assess damage

to roads and property in the area. It comes as storms across other

parts of the south of England also In Kent flash flooding trapped

people in their homes and saw fire crews called out 60 times

in 60 minutes. The BBC will publish details of how

much it pays its talent later this For the first time the salaries

of those who earn more than ?150,000 Only a third of the names

on the list are women. The BBC Director-General, Lord Hall,

said the corporation had argued stars' pay should not

be made public. I don't think it's right that we

should have names against salaries for stars for presenters and others.

I believe that will be inflationary which I think it will be bad for

licence fee payers and I believe it will be a poacher's charter. Look,

we put the arguments out there, we lost.

The Australian Prime Minister said he will seek an inquiry after an

Australian woman was shot in the US. US media reported that Miss Damond

was in her pyjamas. Phil Mercer is in Sydney for us.

Tell us more about what happened and the reaction, Phil. The Australian

Prime Minister says that the death of Justine Damond is shocking and he

wants to know how a woman dressed her pyjamas seeking help from the

police could have been shot dead. The investigation will look at why

the officer's body cameras were not working and we understand that the

40-year-old yoga teacher from Sydney had called the police to report a

suspected sexual assault in an alleyway next to the home of her

American fiancee. Australian diplomats have been charged with

finding out more about the tragedy and a few hours ago the family of

Justine Damond in Sydney held a silent vigil on a beach to remember

the woman who was killed on Saturday evening.

The leaders spoke towards the end of a formal dinner but the White House

has not revealed what was discussed. President Trump has condemned media

revelations of the talks as sick and insists there was nothing sinister

about it. Inequality in the UK is reported to

have fallen during the decade since the financial crash. The leading

economic research group the Institute for Fiscal Studies says

the gap between the richest and the poorest households has narrowed with

the most noticeable change in London. It said one of the reasons

for the change was a fall in earnings during the global financial

crisis which started in 2007 and has remained steady since.

Schools need a more coherent strategy for what to do in the case

of a dangerous event taking place on their premises according to the

teaching union the NASUWT, it says schools have ad hoc drills to deal

with threats and wants a come prehence himself plan for so-called

lockdown procedures. The Government says it constantly reviews the

guidance it issues. Businesses will be banned for charging fees on debit

and credit card transactions from January.

S The Treasury says the fees cost consumers ?473 million in 2010

alone. Hundreds of thousands of

Mercedes-Benz diesel vehicles in the UK are to be recalled to improve

their emissions systems. Daimler is under investigation for alleged

emissions cheating. Similar to that of Volkswagen. A total of #3 three

million vehicles across Europe are affected. Let's catch up with the

sport. Hugh is there. Good morning, Hugh. Good morning. A thrilling

final over win has sent England's women to the World Cup final. They

restricted South Africa to 218, it looked like a comfortable target for

England. After losing eight wickets in their reply, it came down to the

last over. England will play Australia or India at Lords on

Sunday. I think it is kind of sinking in

right now. Once you get past the relief of getting over the line and

we knew we came into this tournament with a good shot if we played good

cricket and you can't win turnments in you're not in the fiblement we

are pleased to be over the line and one more game to go! England and

Scotland's famous old rivalry will be renewed on a bigger stage than

ever before in women's football when the two meet in the European

Championships in the Netherlands. England are aiming to improve on

their third place finish at the 2015 World Cup which has them amongst the

favourites for the tournament. Scotland are playing in their first

major competition, but have lost key players to injury. Their head coach

says it will be her proudest moment in football when they walk out on to

the pitch later. The biggest thing is to try to enjoy it. Try to

embrace the experience and that's been the message the whole journey

now from when we qualified, all the preparations, it has been really

about, you know, enjoy every single second.

We have put in so much preparation as in physical work, so much work

off the pitch and becoming a more together team and I'd like to say

this is the most prepared we have felt going into a tournament. So I

think that's why there is a lot of belief and a lot of determination

around the squad. That's all from me for now. We will

have the headlines just after 9.30am for you.

Thank you very much, Hugh: Good morning we are back in North

Kensington, it is five weeks since the fire which took the lives of at

least 80 people at Grenfell. Today we are at the Tabor knackical

Christian Centre. The donations keep coming on a daily basis. Not as in

great a volume as the early days as you'd expect and we will show you

around in a little bit. We are here for a number of reasons. Again,

tonight, Kensington and Chelsea council are supposed to meet for the

first time since the disaster and a new council leader is officially

takes up her position at that meeting. There are one or two

worries that the meeting may not go ahead because of the protest that

are planned outside. We will talk to some of the protesters later on in

the programme. We are here because five weeks on, some of the survivors

tell us they are still in exactly the same limbo effectively as in the

immediate aftermath of the fire. Still homeless. Still living in

hotels, with none of their possessionsment many unable to go to

work. Many unable to gain access to realistic financial support. They

are not getting access to the right mental health support or any mental

health support in some cases. And some of them say when they go to

sleep at night, when they try to go to sleep at night, when they close

their eyes they see images of their dead relatives, neighbours and

friends. And they need some mental health support desperately. Of

course, people in mourning, grieving for the people that lost their lives

five weeks ago. They feel pretty much let down by almost everyone.

PROBLEM WITH SOUND I want to take you inside the Tabor

knackical Christian Centre if I may. There is a notice on the door,

"Thank you to all our volunteers from TCC." This is Pastor Derekment

thank you for having us here. Pastor Derek. Good morning, Beverley, hi.

Come in. Mind this carpet here. You will see around you men's clothes,

women's clothes, jewellery. Now, these are all new items. These are

new items of clothing. These have been donated by Marks Spencer, by

John Lewis, by Primark because Pastor Derek thought the least

people who survived the fire and those who were evacuated, the least

they deserved was new items of clothing. This, this is a small, I

mean, these have been made by a guy who came from Wales and delivered

boxes of these, just a small cushion that he drove down in a van to

deliver here at the centre. Let me introduce to you various people.

Some of them you may recognise. Some are speaking publicly for the first

time about what happened to them. Good morning, everybody. Good

morning. This lady escaped from the second floor of Grenfell and next to

her is her daughter and her partner Matthew, thank you for talking to

us. You may remember Mahad, we spoke to on the morning of the fire and he

spoke so articulately about how he had escaped, about what he had

witnessed in the early hours of that morning. And also, alongside Mahad

is his 15-year-old nephew. Thank you for talking to us. How are you? I'm

fine, thank you. You're living in a hotel. Yes. With your... My

grandson. How is that? Well, it hasn't been easy because the boy

keeps having after a traumatic incident he keeps waking up during

the middle of the night. I want to go to my room where he was

comfortable and being autistic and ADHT. You say you're fine. Yeah, I'm

fine. I'm breathing. I'm alive, but with every other thing around, it

could be better. Do you feel it's getting worse?

Well, I would say it's getting worse because if after six weeks and we

are still in the hotel, unsure of our future, we don't know where we

are going. We don't know where we are coming from. We sleep in a small

cubical in the hotel room day in and day out. It could be better if

things were taken more seriously because it looks like it is the

charity organisations that has really helped us a lot. If the

Government has done what they are supposed to do by now, we should be

out of hotels. I know you have been offered accommodation. It's in

Westminster which is a way away. That's not where your gropbd son

goes to school. That would be a tricky thing for you to take him to

school from another borough every morning. Do you have any idea when

you might be offered something more appropriate for you and your

grandson? I do not. And I don't see why I

should be moved out of my borough. I raise my five children in this

borough. I lived in that area for most of 35 years. We moved out of my

comfort so the Wandsworth for eight years. Temporarily. Only six months

ago, I was moved back into Grenfell Tower. I am today with nothing. I

thought she was OK. My mum is very strong, very resilient. But now I

know she is not OK. Why do you say that? Being the sort of person she

is, she has tried to be strong but people around her, people in the

hotels come to talk to her, they call her mum. She doesn't want to

break down, she doesn't want to show that she is hurting and going

through a lot of things but after the phone call I got at 1:30am last

week, when she was rushed to hospital, I knew she was not OK.

People in the hotel were telling you... They had to call an ambulance

because she was having palpitations. I was going to come down but she

said to them that she knows what it's like. She told me what the

doctor had said. He had said he believes she is suffering from

post-traumatic stress disorder. Goodness me.

Good morning. How are you doing? I don't know.

My chest is hurting, my heart is hurting. My body is aching. My wife

is not well. My children are concerned for their well-being, I'm

concerned for the development. It's a lot. Tell me more about how your

kids are doing. My wife and I are trying to keep them as occupied as I

can. My son is aware of the situation in terms of not being at

home. Continuously asking for home. Asking for his toys.

It's really, really difficult. As the father and the husband, it's

scary when I don't know what's happening. It's really, really

scary. How was your wife? She is really stressed. How does that

manifest itself? She hasn't had any help either, no counselling. She

doesn't want to leave the kids, if I'm not there, she looking after

them. When I can, I am there to look after them and see if I can take

them for a few hours. It's difficult. Is it getting

harder? It is. It is getting harder because the deadlines are finished

in terms of when the enquiry was fresh, there was a deadline and a

sense of government being held to account. Local authority needing to

take action urgently. But since the three-week deadline has finished...

For the office of permanent accommodation? I knew they were not

going to fulfil it. I told the housing minister, I told Sajid

Javid, I told them face-to-face, I said I know you are an MP and I know

you're going to say what you can to get out of this but please don't

like to us. And if you cannot fulfil this, let us know. I've got two kids

to worry about and a wife. Please don't mess around. There are elderly

people, children, disabled people, traumatised people, people of all

levels in this. Stop playing around with people's emotions. At the end

of the day, they are not taking it seriously and there is nothing we

can do about it. Let me bring in your nephew. Thank you for talking

to us. You are 15. You see what is happening to your family, how do you

cope with this? It is not the easiest thing to cope with. Just

knowing that your family, your uncle is not all right and not knowing how

to help or comfort him, just hoping he will get better. It's difficult.

We are going to talk in a few minutes about what you think really

could be done right now because there are things we have discussed

this morning that are not happening. First, I want to bring our audience

that a reporter has made. Five weeks on from the Grenfell

Tower fire in west London, we've come back to the area to see

how people are coping, It's really striking how five

weeks on these tributes are still extremely moving

and powerful, and still daily, people are coming here,

to pay their tributes, bring candles, write notes, bring

flowers and just pay their respects. Our first stop is a church just

around the corner from the tower. The pastor and a team of volunteers

are helping the survivors and local Joseph, his son and his

brother-in-law Karim escaped Until now, they haven't

spoken to anyone from What happened - tell me

what happened that night. After 12, just after 12,

we hear like noise from outside and on our floor, so we was like,

I was, like, "What's going on?" My wife was still sleeping, my son,

so I wake up off my bed and get up and went outside.

I was, like, "What's going on?" So I saw two firefighters and I was,

like "What's going on?" They says, like, "A minor fire."

They have it under control, go back in our flats,

and we get back in our flat. After 10, 15 minutes I was,

like, we can see smoke, and we are seeing the fire

escalating, going up the building, so I was, like, "I'm not waiting

for them firefighters, We could have been dead

if I had listened to them. And then I used my head and came out

and take my family out. We was worried about my

brother-in-law, but so happened when we came out, he was out.

So it was all good. We were focussing

on other families now. We tried to help people,

but they didn't let us, and then we were just watching these

people in the windows, waving flashlights and screaming.

I couldn't do nothing, man. Five weeks on, what's

improved for you? Nothing.

Nothing improve for us. That's getting worse

and worse every day. Joseph, with his partner,

son and brother-in-law have been living in a single room at a hotel

for the past month. They have refused to move

into alternative temporary accommodation, saying that

what they were offered was unsuitable.

What accommodation have you and your family been offered?

Temporary accomodation in W2. Somewhere in Westminster.

So outside the borough you live in? Yes, we rejected it

because it was temporary, and it wasn't suiting my partner's

needs, so therefore it wasn't really suitable for us.

Was it a tower block? You are still coming

to a donation centre. You haven't been rehoused,

you are in a hotel. What would you like to see happen

in the next five weeks? For me, and for every other

survivor, they want the Government to meet their demands,

which place them in a house first, then they can talk

about anything else. Proper housing, anything

else goes after. Guys, it was so nice

meeting you, man. Thank you for talking to me.

Karim, my friend, take care, bro. All the best.

See you later. It's an eye-opener to think that

five weeks on, Joseph is still in a hotel.

Four people in one room - him, his son, his brother-in-law

and his partner. We managed to talk to another

survivor, Mamudu Rumayatu. She is currently living

at a hotel in Kensington. In her late 60s, and with her

12-year-old grandson, she also lived on the second

floor of Grenfell. Five weeks on, how are you doing?

I can't sleep well in the night. I wake up with palpitations,

scared that something might happen to me again.

Sweating. That hasn't diminished

at all, five weeks on? No, it hasn't.

It's worse. Because by now, I should have

received counselling. And you haven't?

I haven't. I haven't.

We moved to this hotel about ten hours after the fire.

And I was taken to the ninth floor, which was very difficult for me

to absorb into my system. Ninth floor of the hotel?

Yes, not after coming from fire, that you put me

on the ninth floor again. So I agitated that I want to go

down, I don't want to stay up there, so they brought me down.

She cares for her grandson full-time,

who is autistic and has ADHD. She carried him out the tower

during the fire, injuring her wrist and back in the process.

You are in this room, with your grandson.

Do you like it, is it good enough for you?

No, I don't like it. This place is like we are in prison.

I mean, under normal circumstances, I'm not 20 or 30 years old,

Have you been offered accommodation elsewhere,

Yes, I was offered one, but in a different borough,

which I went and had a look at today.

It is very thoughtful of them, at least, to remember that they have

to offer us a place, but we need a more spacious

accommodation for a special needs child, to be able to move around.

And more so in a borough where he is used to his family,

his people, his doctor, his playground, everything.

I want to live in the local area where I had lived for 45 years.

Are you hopeful you are going to get somewhere that

Well, I am hopeful, and I think the Government or the people,

the authority has an obligation to put me in a suitable

place of my choice, and of the little boy's choice.

You think they are going to do that? Hopefully.

Some people watching might think residents are demanding too much,

that they are not being flexible, that maybe expectations need to be

managed, what would you say to those sorts of people?

I think whoever think they are demanding too

much has never gone through what we have gone through.

Imagine you going to bed in the night, you've made your home

All of a sudden, there is fire, nobody wakes you up,

you manage to survive, and somebody comes to tell

you the expectation is too much? What do they expect us to do?

Fold our arms and say, "Oh, come on, help me, please"?

It doesn't work that way. We've all worked hard in that

building, to be inside there. I have worked all my life.

How long do you reckon it's going to be until you can begin

to live a normal life with your grandson?

As long as they decide, when they decide to move us

from here, that would be a way forward.

Because right now we have no, no hopes, nothing.

We are just living from day-to-day. If not the charity organisations,

I wouldn't be wearing this today. We are the ones affected.

We lost our properties. We lost lives.

Nobody from the council has ever come and said,

"Get them all together, let's sympathise with them.

I don't know what's next, because it looks like right now,

You would call this officer on the phone, "Oh, sorry,

This is not the time for holiday for anybody.

It's clear that many survivors are struggling with trauma,

and are not receiving essential mental health support.

After leaving, Mamuda at the hotel, I went back to the church to meet

I go to the hotels, I see, you know - you start one week,

they're happy, but I've gradually see this despair and

Their shoulders become, you know, coming down.

You think they're becoming more disenfranchised?

Absolutely. Disillusioned, disenfranchised.

One of the survivors tried to commit suicide not too long ago,

Really, and you are in touch with these people?

Yeah, I'm in touch with these people.

Very much so, I'm in touch with these people.

All of us are lucky to be alive. Whether we lived here or anywhere.

We've never had anything of this nature post-war UK.

The communication needs to be on point, and all these splinter

groups need to come together and focus on the task in hand,

Can you cite examples where you have seen authority act impressively?

Yes, when they were deducting rent from people's accounts,

That was some kind of insensitivity to a level.

That was impressive. That was impressive.

So it's been five weeks since the fire.

What do the next fire five weeks hold?

Organisation, communication, continued love and outreach

I've already started saying to people, make emergency packs,

learn how to crawl around your homes in the dark.

No, this is my life, because it's happened to me.

I live this fear every day of my life, because it's happened to me.

So this isn't new to me, this could have been me.

Coming back to the area and meeting new survivors and volunteers,

it's striking to see the level of distrust locals still have

Many are still heavily reliant on donations

and the support of volunteers, making one thing very clear -

survivors still have a long road ahead.

Obviously reinvited the Government representatives of various Cabinet

Ministers to join us on the programme today. We also invited

Kensington and Chelsea borough council to be with us today. They

said no. Some of your message as you're watching our guests and

watching Ashley's film. Karen on Facebook says, "These people have

lost their homes and everything they own and they are lucky to be alive.

Why shouldn't they stay in the community they are used to?" Nicole

says, "These people have lost everything and now the Connell want

to remove them from the community that is supporting them. I cannot

believe anyone would want to prevent them from receiving support and

housing in their local community." Northernan says, "Politicians are

distancing themselves from all responsibilities." Amanda says,

"These are the stories we should be hearing, decent people wanting a

decent life." This lady escaped from the second floor of Grenfell with

her 12-year-old grandson. Mahad is here. He escaped with his wife and

two very young children and Mahad's 15-year-old nephew.

People watching might be thinking in every hotel there will be a mental

health expert, a finance expert, a housing expert. Is that happening?

Are there teams of those people? The only people we see every day, every

day, the charity organisations, friendly neighbourhoods. We don't

see anybody except the stewards and people that are working there. Is

that a surprise to you? Disappointment, not surprise.

Disappointed. Initially when mum was at the hotel she was upstairs

constantly because she got hurt trying to escape. Now she comes

downstairs. The people that she says apart from the survivors are the

volunteers and these people have been incredible. I can't say thank

you enough. Everything my mum has got everything she is wearing is

from them actually going out. They come in and ask, what size are you?

What do you want? What do you need? They go out and get these things.

Those are the people that are downstairs. No professionals are

downstairs. If I may come in. The first time I moved into that place I

did tell the hotel or the Kensington and Chelsea, I have back problem. I

bought myself an orthopaedic mattress. I slept on the floor for

seven days. I asked Kensington and Chelsea to please give me an

orthopaedic mattress. It took that long before a charity now give me an

orthopaedic bed mattress which I now sleep on. Your mum is alive and

surely the money from the millions of pounds that we know now has been

raised by generous British people, surely that's getting through. What

do you say to those people? I'd like to say thank you very much. I don't

know half of you. Half of you don't know me. Your kindness has been

overwhelming. The amount you have raised has been generous. Where I

live in Hampshire people have come up to me and said, "But they are

getting all this money." A colleague said, "Your mum is alive." I looked

and I thought actually yeah, she is alive. But what I didn't realise and

what most people don't realise, yes they are alive, but that's not it.

There is so much to do. The money that's been raised. We don't know

where it's going. We think it's going to Kensington Chelsea,

wherever it's going, but I don't understand how Kensington and

Chelsea can be responsible for the money for something that they were

negligent about? Why can't the Government help these people? Why

can't they put the money together somewhere and give it to these

people to help them. People feel that they have to beg. Some of these

people are doctors, lawyers, honestly, I don't think it matters

what profession anyone is. I wouldn't wish this on anyone. I

wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. I think the Government should take

more responsibility and look after mummy. I can't blame the nation

thinking well these people are getting lots and lots of money,

they're not. They haven't got a penny of your money yet. I can

assure you of that and we don't know where it is.

Mahad, you have still and you've articulated this to us before, that

you still have serious worries about the numbers in terms of the official

numbers that we have from the Metropolitan Police that at least 80

people have died and they say it could be sometime, if not next year,

before we know the true figure. You were worrying last night because it

was raining here. Tell our audience why. Last night we had a storm,

thunder and lightening and a lot of heavy rain. The building is still

not preserved. The evidence is not preserved and there has been

negligence on all accounts, at all levels. Before, during and after the

fire. We still don't know the total number of presumed dead. And so many

people, so many different levels are all grieving. We need answers. We

need to know how many people are missing. We need to know how many

are confirmed dead and we need some answers and some people are waiting

to find out if there is any remains of their loved ones and we really

think that they are dragging their feet about this, on this

investigation and in terms of... Sorry to interrupt. The police have

said, we care. We are on our hands and knees going through that tower,

carefully and dig gently. I will be honest with you Victoria, we need to

still see that, it is not what they are doing right now. From the

meetings I have had with the police commander he did specifically say

that the floors are not stable and therefore, they are getting builders

in. At that meeting he also did express to us that there will be a

covering for the building and soon as possible and yesterday I have

come to learn that they have now proposed for November. Now, that's

not as soon as possible, is it? Also, the fact that the police

commander himself said that there will be builders going in there in

order to stabilise the floors and landings and you know to make the

building more stable is worrying and concerning because in the same

sentence which they say that it's not safe and it needs to be

stabilised they are saying that it's safe for the adjacent and

neighbouring buildings to be occupied by people and that's again

another form of neglect and again disregard to human life. So it's no

surprise that what the general public has donated in terms of money

and clothing has been taken by central Government and been

micromanaged in that sense. The building is being neglected. I'm

going to pause for a moment if I may. I'm going to talk to Pastor

Derick. Thank you for the moment. I know we're going to hear more from

you later. Pastor Derick is going to talk to us about the things that

have been donated. The volume has reduced which is expected? What we

have decided to do is give the survivors brand-new clothing which

have been received from the companies around John Lewis, Evans

and Marks Spencer's, and they have an opportunity to come here, in an

environment like this and go through with an assistant and volunteer. So

you assign a volunteer to each survivor? That's right. And then

them through. Even making these kind of decisions, it's stressful.

Absolutely. Some of them are still traumatised. Some of them were still

in the same clothing since they left the tower. Really? Because of the

trauma and they came here to see what we have. These are not charity

cases. A good of the survivors had an apartment and they have got their

own business. That's why we have decided that what they have gone

through, let's give them brand-new stuff. Here we have shoes and

flip-flops and we have got a good number of sizes that they are able

to go through. And... This is the room where you keep the food

effectively? Right, we have got the side hall where the food is. You can

see the different range of food dough nated by Waitrose and

Sainsbury's and Tesco. Are you able to ring them up and

say, we're short on baked beans, is that how it works? We haven't been

short on anything for quite some time. This came in the first week,

we didn't ring anyone, they just started delivering. As they received

their apartment, they are able to come here and pick up food. We've

got brand-new mattresses we had delivered to the homes of some of

the survivors. Outside in the garden, there are more food and

toiletries we were able to go through and sort out what they need.

Thank you for having us here today. The night, one of the reasons we are

here today, is the night, the Kensington and Chelsea Borough

Council are due to meet for the first time since the fire at ground.

You'll remember the former leader Nicholas Paget-Brown and his deputy

Rock Fielding resigned 48 hours after we last broadcast our

There's been so much talk about the cladding of Grenfell

and indeed other tower blocks around the country.

This programme has learned that the type of cladding used

on the outside of Grenfell Tower - when it's burned -

releases 14 times the amount of heat than is allowed under a key

Our reporter Jim Reed is here with more.

So we've heard lots about the cladding used

on Grenfell and how it appeared to spread the fire.

What have you find out and how significant is it?

The witnesses have also talked about that night, how quickly the flames

seemed to spread up the building. These cladding panels in the

installation, were installed over a couple of years as part of this ?10

million refurbishment of Grenfell Tower. We now know the government

tested these panels. Those panels did not pass that safety test. They

failed the test of limited combustibility. What is surprising

if by how much they failed. The heat produced by these panels was 14

times the limit set by the government to pass that test so

significantly above the level that would have been allowed under those

regulations. It is very complicated. We asked the

government for the test results but they are not making them Hubnik at

the moment. We had been passed a copy of the French test data. We

presume it will come through with the same results. The three academic

check the result is that the calculations we were making a

reasonable calculations. The cladding on the outside of the

building, behind that, equally as important, you have the

installation. We spoke to academics at Lee's university and they said

there is about 18 worth of this installation and that would have

omitted heat at around eight times the level set either government as

safe. So you have the cladding and the installation behind it.

And what do the manufacturers say about all this?

There are two of them Arconic say this is only one part of the overall

system. And another French company who made the installation, they say

they can't comment while this is this ongoing investigation.

We can now talk about that a bit more with fire safety expert

and chartered surveyor Arnold Tarling

You've spent 30 years in the building industry.

What do you make of this finding that the cladding burnt with 14

times the heat than allowed under government safety tests?

I have to say I am not surprised with the materials used in there. We

have been using materials for many years, London had the building act

section 20 and none of these materials would have been allowed.

We have not allowed those materials on building since the Great Fire of

London in 1666. We learned that long ago.

What does it tell us about building regulations in this

The building regulations in this country, they are not fit for

purpose. It was stated in the Latta house coroners inquest that they

immediately immediate review. They are convoluted and misleading. You

can get comments saying you cannot use installation below class H two

on a building but then you test it. Class B and C may pass. So have you

failed or have you passed? Then you get comments about composite

materials such as the aluminium composite material which tells you

in two places, you ignore the core. Then you get people like the

national house-building confederation with the

recommendations on external cladding. And they were quite

categorical that aluminium materials were perfectly acceptable unless

they contained polythene inside them.

You can interpret these how you like. Some people saying the

material is filler. Filler isn't the polyethylene. Filler is what you put

in to fill a dent or a hole. What should happen now? We need a

complete investigation into building regulations. We need a complete

rewrite to make it simple so that anybody can understand it. And we

need to change the advisers to government who have been

mis-advising the ministers. Because I don't expect my MP to understand

the intricacies of fire safety in a building, I expect the advisers to

be telling them. When you find that the advisers have conflicts of

interest because they also are working for private industry,

because we no longer have a government owned fire testing

station, what is going to happen, they will cover things up. They will

not release that information because... We don't know they will

cover things up to be fair. Thank you.

Eric Sehn, a lot of the Grenfell Tower survivors suffering from PTSD

and they need professional counselling. Dave said on Twitter,

sarcastically, it makes you proud to be British but my heart goes out

those suffering. Linda says all my prayers are with these families.

Paul says this is that disgusting, the way this government have treated

the survivors. Five weeks on and still no real help. We will talk

more about the lack of mental health support because the more people we

talk to, survivors and residents talked about the lack of mental

health support three weeks ago when we were here. On the morning we were

here, the day after, and still, five weeks on, there doesn't seem to be

the professional help. It is definitely out there but people

can't access it somehow. We talked with a lady a little earlier

about... It would help her, she's living in a hotel with her grandson

and it would help if she went down to reception of the hotel, there was

somebody to help with finances, debt, mental health. You are back

with us. Joseph John is also with us.

Karim as well, Joseph's brother-in-law and while staying

over on the night of the fire. Dr John Green, the NHS

clinical lead for the mental health response to the fire,

Dr Gary Wannan, Consultant Child and Adolescent Psychiatrist

And Dr Shamender Talwar, a psychologist who has

offered his services to those He has seen 32 survivors altogether,

with some of them members Tell our experts what you think you

might need. What would be helpful? I thought I was OK initially after

escaping from the fire. I inhaled some smoke and I saw the Red Cross

and they said it would clear in time. So I thought everything was

OK. But subsequently, I start waking up at 1am, having palpitations,

sweating, confused. With the little boy as well, he is autistic and he

has ADHD and his routine has been stopped so he wakes up saying, let's

go back to the flat, let's go to our house. We cannot go back to the

house, it is burned. It is difficult for him to accept the fact it is

burned. So we are still living under the delusion that we are OK. But if

we had experts coming around, knocking on our door, saying, you

are not OK, you have gone through this trauma, this is what should be

done. We will wake up and come back to reality. It is like we are still

dreaming. Let me bring in the child and adolescent psychologist, this

lady has a 12-year-old grandson. I think this is really upsetting, to

hear how you as a family have been affected. I think that some of the

symptoms, the distress you are speaking about can be understood.

Other people who go through trauma experienced something similar. I'm

not saying it to play down what is going on fear but rather to say that

these are things that are recognised. The things that you can

be helped with. Clearly for you and your grandson, at this stage, to be

having symptoms as you are, it is vital you do get the right help. I

think people know that. But where do they go? Forgive me, I am not

speaking on your behalf. Where did they go? People should come to them.

Just to say, as well as my clinic being literally up the road and I

can give you my contact details and details of the clinic, please tell

me where you live. I know that my colleagues have been going around

hotel rooms, they have been out and giving information. I'm sorry it has

not got to you. There are outreach clinics going out, we have been

commissioning as part... Watt is an outreach clinic somewhere people go?

They let us know where they are and an outreach clinic will come out to

them. We have a message that we want to be clear to everybody that there

is no wrong front door. They can go to the GP, the schools should be

supporting, just to give us your information, for anyone to let the

GP know that this is going on and what extra support they need. We

really want it to be around a person. We are talking about

traumatised people, if you say they should go... Why can't they reach

us? We are traumatised. There are four people here who were affected.

Have any of you... Has anyone said, I can help you with the mental

health side of things? No, we had just been getting harassment. Why?

In my situation, we suffered mental health issues and they are not

helping, they are just making things worse. Every day, they are harassing

me. About what? Someone I know it was on sleeping pills before sundown

she wanted the same sleeping pills because they work for her and they

don't want to get hurt. They are trying to make it look like she

needs to go in the mental hospital. Doctor John Green...

You're the chief psychologist and clinical lead for the mental

health response to the fire at Grenfell Tower.

We have sent teams into the hotel is trying to find as many people and

reach as many people as possible. One of our problems is to know where

people are. I would say if you... You need to let us know if you have

not been reached at this stage and we will do something about this. You

can go to your GP, style NHS 111 and that goes straight through to us on

Grenfell Tower. And we will be going out and trying to do exactly what

you were saying, trying to find people who haven't been reached.

We're coming up to the news. I know Mahad wants to speak. It is a huge

issue. It is ten o'clock. Let's bring you the weather and here

Simon. Last night we had a spectacular show with lightening.

Over 150,000 lightening strikes were recorded. We had plenty of Weather

Watcher photos sent in to us. This is one of my favourites from last

night in Dorset. Some really good fork lightening there. There are

more thunderstorms in the forecast today. If you get hit by a

thunderstorm, like yesterday, we could see flash flooding, frequent

lightening, some hail and gusty winds. For many of us this morning a

quieter period. Lots of dry weather with sunny spells, but it is later

into the afternoon where across Northern Ireland, into North Wales,

the Midlands, southern parts of north-west England could see the

risk of those really intense thunderstorms, but it will be a very

warm if not hot day again. Temperatures in the South East could

reach 32 Celsius. The storms work their way further northward into

Scotland. Elsewhere, becoming drier and as we go through Thursday, it is

turning fresher. The risk of storms in the morning, by the weekend sunny

spells and showers, and temperatures where they should be for the time of

year. We're in North Kensington -

five weeks on from the Grenfell Tower fire which claimed the lives

of at least 80 people and has left the survivors traumatised

and uncertain over their futures. We're still in the hotel unsure of

our future. We don't know where we are going. We don't know where we

are coming from. My chest is hurting. My heart is

hurting. My feet are aching. My body is aching. My wife is not well. My

children, I'm concerned for their well-being and development. It's a

lot. It is a lot. Survivors and their families

say the money still Yes, they are alive, but that's not

it. There is so much 20 do. To do. They haven't got a penny of your

money yet. I can assure you of that and we don't know where it is.

Those who escaped the fire are understandably traumatised,

but some still haven't received counselling and say their mental

It's worse because by now I should have received counselling. I

haven't. I haven't. Some mess angs. Ages. Andrew says "I'm disgusted

that no one from the Government is prepared to attend the meeting."

Rich on Twitter says, "These people are alive but their life has gone."

Ryan on Twitter says, "It is so important that you are keeping the

spotlight on this issue. That the victims get answers that they need

and aren't forgotten about." Chuck says, "Thank you for continuing to

highlight the inadequate establishment response. Seeing the

Grenfell survivors today still in limbo is so shameful." We will bring

you more from North Kensington after the news and the sport.

Here's Joanna in the BBC Newsroom with a summary of today's news.

It added that the cladding's plastic core would have burnt as quickly as

petrol. The contractors who fitted the cladding and insulation say they

both passed all regulations. The BBC will publish how much it

pays its talent. The salaries of those who earn more than ?150,000 a

year will be revealed. A third of the names on the list are women. We

can speak now to the Labour peer and Steve Barnet professor of

communications and order of battle for the BBC. Steve, is it right to

be publishing these? No, I don't think it is. It is unnecessary. It's

perfectly OK to publish figures in an anonymised form which would

satisfy the need for transparency and accountability, but to have

names against figures is mean spirited. I think it's a deliberate

attempt to try and undermine the BBC and I think the consequences will be

quite dangerous in terms of inflating talent fees

across-the-board, not just for the BBC and in the end, making it much

more difficult for the BBC it attract the kind of talent that we

need for a public service broadcaster that is still loved by

everyone, where everyone pays the licence fee and where it's important

to be popular as well as high quality. Can there be proper

transparency and accountability without naming names? What we know

as a result of names being in the frame now is that in the band of

presenters earning ?150,000, two-thirds of them are men? I think

and that's wrong and the Director-General made it clear that

within less than five years he wants to address that and it's perfectly

possible to make that commitment and to have those figures without having

the names attached. You can publish bands and you can publish genders

and you can publish it on an annual basis so that you can see whether

there is inflation, to what extent it's going up. You don't have to

publish individual names to have that kind of transparency. Do you

think it is right that the pay of presenters is being published in

this way? Yes, I do. Steve is wrong. This is public money. Everyone has

to pay ?147 in licence fee however poor they are and we need to know

what it is being used for and who is getting how much they are getting.

Because you know, some presenters we know, will be getting five, ten

times a teacher or much more than a member of Parliament or in many

cases more than the Prime Minister. For jobs that are are not as

responsible as teachers or members of Parliament or Prime Ministers. We

need to know that. We need to know where the money is going and why

should they be embarrassed? We know how much teachers are paid. We know

how much each member of Parliament is paid. We know how much professors

are paid. Why shouldn't we know how much presenters are paid? Tony Hall

says he is satisfied that all of the 96 who are named are worth what they

are being paid. Are you? Well, that's his judgment. We don't know

yet. Is John Humphrys who comes on in the morning, four times a week

perhaps, sneers at public servants, is he worth getting paid ten times

that of classroom teacher? I don't think so. I think we're paying

people far too much and it will be interesting to see exactly how much

people are getting paid. I'd like to interview John Humphrys for example

and ask him if he can justify getting hundreds of thousands of

pounds for just coming on and asking questions, prepared for by

researchers all the work being done by someone else? I don't think so. I

think it's entirely out of proportion. There you have precisely

the danger for the BBC of these salaries being published where you

have politicians who need to be held to account, not just by the BBC, but

by journalists across-the-board, who will be complaining about the kinds

of salaries that their interviews are earning and it puts the BBC at a

huge disadvantage because there is no transparency in ITN, we won't see

the salaries of ITN or Sky presenters or Channel 4 presenters,

it is just the BBC and that's going to undermine the BBC's ability to

attract the best talent, the best journalists, the best news

presenters and in the end, it's actually going to undermine the

BBC's reputation for integrity and independence across the world and I

would appeal to Lord Fawkes if you care about an independent BBC and if

you care about keeping a popular BBC as well as a high quality

broadcaster please think again about the consequences of what you are

advocating. You have got to be very careful what you wish for. I think

it is irresponsible of you to say we don't care about the BBC. I have

backed it for years and it is a wonderful broadcaster. It is

accountable. It is public money. The poorest people in the country have

to pay ?147 of the it is a pox tax effectively. We need to know how

that money is being used and it is being used effectively and the BBC

up until now has not made things clear. We shouldn't have to wait

until 2020 for women doing the same job on the BBC to be paid the same

as men. It should happen now, straightaway. Lord Fawkes, Professor

Stephen Barnet, thank you very much. The full details will be published

at 11am. A big clean up is taking place in

the village of Coverack in Cornwall. The village was divided in two by a

four-foot torrent of water. It comes as storms across other

parts of south of England caused problems elsewhere. In Kent flash

flooding trapped people in their homes. The Government has won its

High Court bid to obtain a permanent ban on industrial action by prison

officers. The Ministry of Justice took up the case after the POA, the

professional trade union for prison workers called on its members to

take action short of a strike. That's a summary of the news. Let's

catch up with the sport with Hugh. England and Scotland's famous old

rivalry will be renewed on a bigger stage than ever before in women's

football tonight when the two meet in the group stage of the yrn

Championship. England are aiming to improve on what was a very

impressive third place finish in the 2015 World Cup. Scotland are playing

in their first major tournament, but lost key players to injury. Their

head coach says it will be her proudest moment in football when

they walk out on to the pitch. The biggest thing is to try to enjoy it.

Try to embrace the experience. And that's been the message the whole

journey now from when we qualified, all the preparations, it has been

really about, you know, enjoy every single second. We have put in so

much preparation as in physical work, so much work off the pitch and

becoming a more together team and I'd like to say this is probably the

most prepared we felt going into a tournament. So I think that's why

there is a lot of belief and determination around this squad. The

match kicks off at 7.45pm. There is full commentary on BBC Radio 5 Live.

The first group will already be more than half-way around their opening

round the Open. Royal Birkdale is preparing to host the tournament for

the tenth time with one of the most memorable in 1998 when a 17-year-old

Justin Rose chipped in to win the amateur prize and finish fourth.

That set him on his way to a professional career of great success

during which he won the US Open and Olympic gold, but he says he'd still

love to win at Birkdale. It's the one tournament that I've dreamed

about since I was that young boy and especially at Royal Birkdale you

take an Open Championship and you take a major championship anywhere,

but if they happen to line up at special venues, I feel fortunate I

was able to win at Merion and for me here to do at Royal Birkdale would

be a full circle moment based upon I guess sort of what I did in 1998. So

yeah, it's a special venue and like you say, lots of good memories.

More later. But that's it for now. We are back in North Kensington. The

conversation has carried on while you were watching the news between

survivors and medical health professionals, experts particularly

in mental health because that's a huge thing that is coming through

from the people that we talk to, continually, not just when we are on

air in North Kensington, we are contact with survivors and residents

on an almost daily basis. Joseph John is with us. He lived at

Grenfell for six months on the second floor with his feonsy and

son. Mahad is here, Joseph's brother-in-law was staying over on

the night of the father. Let me introduce you to Dr Green. A

psychologist has offered his services to those affected by the

fire for free. We are joined by a child and adolescent psychiatrist

and a GP. The conversation was calm and dignified, but there is a

controlled anger because the people here are so frustrated that they are

not getting access to what they need in order to help them cope with the

trauma of surviving that fire. Some of the things that you were saying

to our guests here. What were you saying?

With these professionals that I have before us today, what I urge them to

do is go and speak to the survivors where they are located. Where they

are comfortable. Where their accommodation is from now. Take

pictures. See it for yourself and write a letter on their behalf, from

your department and your profession which you cover so you're saying you

cover child department and you care for the children that have survived

from the tragedy of Grenfell Tower well what you can do is write to the

Secretary of State and for the minister of house to go say that

these children who are survivors are kept in a poor condition.

is that something you feel you can do? Absolutely. We worked with

children for the last two and a half years in Kensington and we knew of

the children and families. Is it surprising to you that there are

four people here, if you're working on the ground, who have had no

contact with anybody? The professionals are not communicating

themselves. This situation has been put upon, people from authority have

not come forward. We as professionals, we want to help and

are willing to help. We are here because we want to see what we can

offer as support. We will meet people like these families here, it

is a complete no-brainer. We are here to support these families. But

before you can help, you get yourself together like a community,

you delegate, you don't just say because you want to help, you are

here. If you get yourselves together, you get the points, bullet

points, you do this, you do this, then you will be able to reach us.

Doctor John Green, are you shocked that five weeks on, there are four

people here who have not been able to access the mental health support

they need? How can people access the mental health is the most important

question. We have been sending people out to the hotels. It is

difficult because people are being moved. We have been knocking on

doors in the local area. Trying to reach people. We have got a single

point of entry on these things. We have information going out from GPs.

We have been going out looking for people, to make sure we can for them

up. We are not just going to sit there and hope they come to us

because one of the problems from having trauma is that it stops

people coming forward because they are quite anxious about it and quite

worried about the situation. Now is the time we begin to look. We have

lost our dignity, we have lost our self-respect. Our self-esteem. We

should be picked up. We need help. You should come forward, not us

coming to you. But you have multiple needs as well. First, you need to

come to people and make people happy and try to build up their lives from

the loss. It is getting worse. By placing traumatised people in a

hotel, a hotel is meant for people on holiday who are the who have paid

for and experience. We are also having arguments with the public,

people that are on holiday, because we are not at an appropriate,

suitable accommodation. You need to understand this. I'm sorry you don't

understand this. But you need to. You cannot do anything for our

mental health until we know that there is a safe, secure, appropriate

accommodation roof over our children and elderly and sick people's heads.

If you can have... I appreciate it is not your responsibility to

provide accommodation, but you can put pressure on the people whose job

it is. Is Mahad Egal right, if they have that, they can then begin to

repair the mental health? This is a man-made disaster, not a natural one

and with natural disasters, people accept this was unavoidable.

However, with a man-made disaster, the anger increases, the anxiety

increases and I totally get this. But you can imagine from our point

of view, we are all learning and understanding together. Yes, with

natural disasters, communities are torn apart, they are kept together

and here, with this situation, a lot of communities have been scattered

everywhere. It is our responsibility and the government and the Council

to come together and bring this community together and that is what

we are willing to do and what we have been doing. I am going to pause

it and thank you all because we have some more people to talk to and they

are councillors from the local Council. Thank you for your time and

your patience. Let me read some more comments.

Bear with me. Tabernacle church was a hub for the Grenfell Tower

surviving victims from the outside. This is from Councillor Young and

pasta Derek deserves credit for his role. How can anyone cast aspersions

on these people for wanting to be within the community that they had

been living in four decades? Seeing these people showing their love for

one another is an excellent example of human beings. Someone on Twitter

says, the let down is painful and angering, to walk in the shoes must

be indescribable. Keep those coming in. We have been reporting that

tonight, Chelsea and Kensington Borough Council meet for the first

time since the show buyer. -- since the fire.

From almost day one, the fire here has been very

With the Prime Minister and her government and the council

Heavily criticised for their lethargic response in the early

days. Criticised initially, Theresa May, for not meeting residents.

Meanwhile Jeremy Corbyn and the Labour Party have been

accused of using the Grenfell disaster to score points.

We will talk to some protesters and said the meeting. A couple of

worries that the meeting might be abandoned because of these planned

protests. We asked for a meeting with the Council leader Elizabeth

Campbell but she said no. We also asked for an interview with the

London mare, Sadiq Khan and that was a no as well. We can speak to

Councillor Atkinson, and Tony Devenish and Chris Williamson.

Mamadu Rumayatu, Karim Elansari and Joseph John and Mahad Egal also

here. How likely is this meeting to go ahead? I hope it does go ahead.

Council leaders will put forward a series of questions and we need to

make sure they do go through. Particularly around the housing

issue. It has been dragged on and on. Until we solve the housing

problem, nobody is going to get security. What is your message to

protesters planning to be outside the building this evening? I

absolutely understand people's anger. Residents have every right to

be angry but the meeting must go ahead. Not so much to reconfirm the

Tory leader because I think that's irrelevant. But I think they need to

ask questions about the properties the Labour group have identified as

being immediately available so I want to make sure they appoint a new

chief Executive and the buck stops with him and we can then ask and

demand answers. From your point of view, as a Labour councillor, what

is the top of your priority list in specific details terms? I want to

make rapid progress on permanent housing for people in the community.

I'm also concerned that over the summer when Parliament goes into

recess, we need to make sure people get the counselling they deserve.

That has got nothing to do with Parliament, though? No, you are

asking what my priorities are. But whether Parliament is in recess or

not, those things can be sorted. Yes, they need to be. You say rapid

progress on the offer of accommodation appropriate to people

who live here, good, decent sized accommodation in this borough, are

you setting some deadline for the Council? Those properties are

available. Are you setting some deadline? I am hoping to get the

Chief Executive by the night and by tomorrow I want him to give me

answers as to whether these properties are available and whether

we will use them and if not, I want to know why. Is that what you want

here? Yes, because I know very well, I have lived in this borough for

more than 45 years, South Kensington, Earls Court, the

assembly properties... There are so many properties that should be for

emergencies but what is this is not an emergency? You need to be taken

care of and not just at the expense of other people homeless in the

borough which is why we need other properties. We can't keep people

hanging around in hotels unless they want to stay. Or being pushed the

other burrows. Some people have disabilities, women are pregnant,

children, people still going through the trauma, everyday, from the fire.

It is outrageous people are being left in one room. There is more

pressure on the family and there is more trauma. How much distrust would

you say there is in your local Council? I wouldn't really say they

are distressed, I would say they are confused. Distrust. I don't know, I

think I ought to have trust for them but they have really let us down.

Continuously. I have personally lost faith in the politicians, the local

authority and central government. I have lost trust in all of them. The

words do not mean anything to me. I want them held accountable for their

words and make sure they lose their jobs and positions because what it

is, unless you attack them where it hurts them, their salary, pension,

and you disgrace them. You have to name and shame them. It means as,

survivors, for nearly five weeks, we have been documenting and following

up and asking each other. If I am being asked one question, that is

Grenfell Tower, it was such a fight by health and safety, for people to

live there. Who was that officer that signed it? His name is...

INAUDIBLE He kept information from the

Council. We don't know that. That will be raised in the enquiry. He is

not here to defend himself. He should be here, accountable. He was

a health and safety advisor and they should answer to the survivors. I do

not understand why our government is not bringing these people the court

or even being arrested for suspicion. Some people fled the

country. It is not anger but frustration. We are not angry, we

are frustrated. If we were angry, then you would have seen different

actions from the community. But we are frustrated, disappointed. We

have been let down continuously. You are letting down the children. In

terms of the accountability, you will know there have been calls for

effectively a snap election to scrap the councils of Kensington and

Chelsea Borough Council, to have local elections to bring them

forward one year to know. What you to that? That isn't going to happen.

Is it a good idea? I don't think it is because we are going to be

spending more weeks organising an election and what we need to be

doing is to be answering some of your questions like where the

accommodation comes from, the mental health support coming from, the

Labour councillors know the area and we are asking these questions. If we

are not part of the equation, there will be a further delay while

elections are organised. You need to put pressure on the government in

power at the moment. I am constantly asking questions, they are the same

questions you are asking. I'm hoping we will get answers after the

meeting tonight. We need someone in place duty-bound to answer those

questions. Let me bring in Tony Devenish, a local councillor and you

represent this borough. Well, I'm not sure that's correct.

What is happening at the moment is over 200 public servants across

Government and local authorities, Labour and Conservative and the

independent City of London Local Government officers are working on

this major crisis. Things haven't been as fast in the early days and

both the Prime Minister, the out going council leader and the new

council leader have apologised for that. We need to speed up. But a lot

is happening. We promised to give temporary housing accommodation to

each of those people who needed it. That has been offered. The dialogue

is still on going. But it's a major crisis and I'm not going to sit here

and give excuses. It's a very complex process. I understand what

the lady and gentleman here are saying and we are working as a team,

across London, it's not just the royal borough, Elizabeth Campbell is

a very good public servant and only legally gets the job tonight, but

she is committed to this area, a long-term resident and I'm sure

things will get much better, yes, it was a slow start, but progress is

being made. Let me bring in Chris Williamson.

Where are we five weeks on? What do you say? Well, not for enough and

what we are experiencing here is a legacy by goes back several decades

of deregulation, privatisation and cuts. It can't be right that a

combustible material was sanctioned to be put on a building, a tower

block for insulation purposes and we need to get to the bottom of that.

That's why we've called for a two-stage inquiry. We need to get to

the bottom of how the fire started and why it spread so quickly? Why

weren't the residents concerns listened to? People were making the

point that they were fearful, it has been well documented now about the

building not being fit for purpose and not being safe and worries about

fire, but we need to genuinely learn lessons, often after disaster,

people talk about learning lessons, but we don't seem to learn those

lessons and the lessons we need to learn is how was it possible that

those sorts of political decision were made going back those decades?

So you are including previous Labour Governments? Of course. This is this

liberal approach to the way in which the economy is organised and it has

been all about privatising services, profiteering, looking at cutting

corners, we have seen public services externalised. The

management of this council in the borough has been given over to a

company. Where we have continued with the system they had in place in

199 when local authorities used to provide public housing, 40% of the

population lived in council housing, I'm convinced that we wouldn't have

had this tragedy, but this is something that the inquiry does need

to get to the bottom of and what changes do we need to make to make

sure we don't find ourselves in this appalling situation again. Do you

have faith in the public inquiry? Well, I think what we need to make

sure is that the public inquiry is fit for purpose. I would like to see

a situation where there is a panel which is there to advice so we can

make sure we get the right decision. We have got a more urgent pressing

problem in relation to housing the survivors of Grenfell Tower right

now. And I think, the borough has got plenty of reserves. It could

acquire properties in the borough to make sure people are accommodated

adequately. If emergency powers are needed for compulsory purchase

powers for the local authority so that that can be done quickly then

that should be dealt with as well, but we can't have a situation. To

buy up houses that people already live in? There are plenty of empty

dwellings that could be utilised and if emergency powers are made. It

can't be right that survivors are forced to live in bed and breakfast

accommodation. People aren't getting an evening meal. This is just

appalling. People are being accommodated in inadequate. Some

have been housed in accommodation that's due for demolition next year.

This is appalling. It has got to be sorted out. We need urgent action

right now to make sure that the survivors are cared for properly,

but longer term we have got to learn those lessons to make sure that the

political decisions that were allowed to be taken that led to this

dreadful, appalling tragedy can never ever happen again. Do you

think as Labour you are having any influence on this process? We are

doing what we can and we are bringing as much pressure as we can

using the Parliamentary process and I think certainly the Government

have been found wanting, very badly wanting, and have recognised that

they've fallen short and I think now there is a bit of a political

consensus emerging that a different approach is needed. Thank you very

much. Thank you very much for coming on the programme. Chris Williamson,

that's Labour's fire and emergency services spokesman, Tony Devenish, a

Conservative member of the London Assembly and Robert Atkinson, the

Labour leader on Kensington and Chelsea Council. The meeting is due

to go ahead tonight. We will talk to the protesters before the end of the

programme. Kat e-mailed to say, "I am a local resident. I feel strongly

that this issue should not be diminish. Thank you for giving the

community a voice where they have been so let down by their council

and kofl recommendives." Steve said, "The local housing department have

the names and addresses of all the survivors. All the specialists have

to do is communicate with them." Elizabeth says, "I feel MPs should

be spending a few weeks of the recess doing everything they can to

help the people of Grenfell." ." Jono, "They want to be near their

friends. That's not ungrateful. It is a very human request." Thank you

for your time. Thank you very much for that are. That.

That's the Labour leader handing his card. Guys please don't go without

leaving your business cards and point of contact as I will do as a

follow up. Just leave your contact details behind, please. Thank you.

Now the news with Joanna. Thank you very much. This programme has

learned that the type of cladding using on Grenfell Tower would have

released 14 times the amount of heat that is allowed under a key

Government safety test when burned. Research conducted by the University

of Leeds suggests the energy emitted from the cladding and insulation

would have been equivalent to burning 51 tonnes of pine wood. It

added that the cladding's plastic core would have burned as quickly as

petrol. The contractors who fitted the cladding say they passed all

regulations. The BBC will publish details at 11am

of how much it pays it's talent in its annual report for the first time

the salaries of those who earn more than ?150,000 a year will be

revealed. Only a third of the names on the list are women.

The Supreme Court has ruled that a man arrested, but never charged in

connection with an investigation into sexual offences against

children can be named. He had sought to stop reporting of his name and

other matters relating to him at a public trial. An anonymity order

protecting his identity has been lifted. A big clean-up operation is

taking place in Cornwall after flashfloods swept through the

village of Coverack. Residents reported hailstones the size of 50

pence pieces. Engineers will assess damage to roads and property in the

area. It comes as storms across other parts of the south of England

caused problems elsewhere. In Kent flash flooding trapped people in

their homes. That's a summary of the news. Join me for BBC Newsroom live

at 11am. The causes of the fire

at Grenfell Tower will soon be investigated

by a full public inquiry. All have been blamed in some

way for the tragedy. But suspicion and distrust goes back

much further than the events For years a policy of

regeneration in the borough has Council tenants in Grenfell

and other estates have long feared being kicked out to

make way for wealthy Our reporter Jim Reed

has been investigating. It's only just about a week ago

I was able to come back Looking at it, you know,

it's just like - it's a dystopia. Nahid Ashby lives on almost

the very top floor of For more than 30 years she has lived

here, a two bed flat The fire has shown outsiders just

how close knit this community is. There is anger, too,

about the tower, but also longer term, about the way for years many

residents feel they have been You hear things, you see things,

you're thinking there's something Part of that seems to come

from the policy of regeneration. The cladding on Grenfell Tower

was part of a much wider scheme. Under those plans, now on hold,

the idea was to bulldoze three tower blocks just a few hundred metres

from Grenfell itself, plus hundreds of low-rises and much

of this green space. Regeneration is something

which technically means to reconstruct something

that has died. There is nothing dead

about this area. And considering the amount

of neglect and lack of investment that the local authority has done

in the area, I still think it Under the most radical

version of the plans, more than 800 extra homes could be

built here, but residents say there was never a guarantee any

of those would be for low The worry is some will be forced

out, decanted in council speak, The majority of them will be bought

off plan by property speculators and investors,

and it's going to either be rented out to people at higher prices,

or they will be left empty. The rest will be, you know,

sent out of the borough. Because there isn't

any room for them. They're not going to build

enough social housing. I see them completely destroying

the sense of community. We already live in one of the most

densely populated areas in London. We don't actually need to have more

people bunched into an area. And we saw what happens

with the community The people, the first people

who were on the road, That's, you know, that's

what is going to get wiped out. The council has tried

to defend its plans at a series Last week, its new leader did

promise to do more in a borough with some of the most expensive land

in the country. I have said that what the council

will do is increase the amount of socially rented housing

in this area. Others, though, say there is only

so much the council can do. Shaun Bailey is a Conservative

member of the London Assembly. He grew up just round

the corner from here. Why is, when you speak to residents

round here, like we have, why is regeneration such a dirty

word, then, in these estates? Regeneration to most residents

means gentrification. It means you're being moved out,

it means your family won't be anywhere near you,

and if you ally that to the general distrust of everybody in London,

who has social housing inflicted on them, people worry, "OK,

I'd like you to regenerate but am I actually going to get

this flat back?" So residents are right to feel

suspicious in some ways? They are, but I think

they would feel less suspicious if the whole political class told

a clearer, more truthful story. It is going to be tough to house

everybody in Central London. There is 8.6 million people,

set to grow to ten by 2030. Where are we going

to put these people? The council are not being mean,

there is simply nowhere to build, and that means land values here -

I mean, it's like being in Monaco frankly, but people on the left

are always saying you should be able So I would like to hear

what the answer is from them. A lot of people who grew up here,

who I went to school with, just behind that block,

we had to leave because we could not live where our parents lived,

because it was simply too expensive Critics of Kensington and Chelsea's

housing policy say it It has ?270 million sitting

in its own bank account. Its waiting list for social housing

is almost 3,000 long. It is now developing

these two old car parks But of the 84 new flats

being built on council land, Another five will be

for so-called affordable housing. Back in north Kensington,

it would be a mistake to think Tania and Piers own this ex-council

house right under the tower itself. Twice in the last ten years

these houses have been Twice the local residents

have fought back. Grenfell was an atrocity almost

beyond belief and comprehension, but it directly arose from the fact

that they ignored the wishes You know, they wanted

to pretty the building up, so it didn't look like a big bit

of public housing, towering, looming over the neighbourhood.

Thus the cladding, you know. It's a direct, it's

directly correlated. It's the same problem.

The people in power do not listen to the people who they're

supposed to represent. People whose interests they're

supposedly looking after. At a council meeting this evening,

Piers will be handing over a petition signed by more than 2,000

resident, saying that plans to develop the wider estate should

now be scrapped completely. What would you say to people

who say, look, these houses, new social houses have to be built

somewhere, so they have to find I think they - I mean,

they can certainly do it in a slightly you know,

less dramatic way. I mean, knocking down six hectares

of an estate and four tower blocks is an incredibly dramatic

thing to do. The thing is the council

own the cards. Social housing tenants

can be pushed about. If you own your own home,

you can't be pushed about so much, but that shouldn't, it shouldn't

be like that. Just because you own your own house

doesn't mean to say you should be more secure than somebody

who is a tenant. You know, a tenant has a right

as much of a right to be there as anybody else.

It's people's homes. The council says housing is now

an absolute priority, and it will work closely with local

people on this estate and beyond. Letters came in the post the week

after the Grenfell fire, saying the regeneration scheme

for the wider area is now on hold, but for the moment, at least,

it hasn't been cancelled. Ali is 30 years old and has

lived here all his life. His frustration with the process

means he says, half joking, that he might stand

for council himself. Things are dictated to us,

rather than our feedback being taken into consideration,

our concerns being dealt with in a much more sympathetic way.

Again, it is arrogance. You guys live here, we know

what's best for you. You don't think you're

being listened to? Without a doubt, I know I'm

not being listened to. Any efforts which I do make,

they get pushed aside. I guess, playing devil's

advocate on it, 10 million The population of the city is meant

to increase over the next 20 years. The council would say these houses

have to go somewhere, so maybe people need to accept

they might not be able to have a big communal garden

like this in the future. This just might be something that

has to go, that is just Then I'll play devil's advocate

as well on that side. If that's the case, let's go destroy

Hyde Park and build houses there. Of course we're not going to go

destroy Hyde Park, it's a treasure. What regeneration in London

is is knocking down houses and building penthouses.

That's the reality of it. When studio flats are being priced

at 625 and being called affordable, how does that help the overgrowing

population of London? That is a question politicians not

just in this borough, but across the rest of the UK must

find an answer to. Just as the causes of the Grenfell

fire are complicated, so the reaction might change the way

we think about homes, about housing, and even

about community in the future. An investigation by the London

Assembly in 2015 found that when estates are regenerated,

there is on average a ten-fold increase in private housing

and a net reduction Let's explore that a bit more

with some people who should know all about what regeneration means

in this part of the world. Eve Allison

has been a Conservative councillor here for the last three years

and sits on the local housing Conservative Tony Devenish

is still here - he sits on the London Assembly's

regeneration committee. Eve Allison - regeneration

to people here means knocking down the homes of poor

people to build homes for rich That should not be the case. I have

seen some changes in London and many people including myself are not

happy with the scope of the changes because it fractures communities and

it looks as if it is social and ethnic cleansing. The reason why

those terms are used because on the whole, people at the bottom of the

economic bracket, we or they are the ones that are in that specific

bracket. We can't all work with the city so we look for where we can

afford homes, we look for where we can afford properties. I am the only

one out of 37 Conservative councillors who actually lives in

social housing. Is it fair that for some people, regeneration means

kicking poor people out of their homes in order to knock down those

homes to build expensive flats for rich people? I wouldn't put it that

way. We have do pay to build a regenerated estate and the reality

is, we need to build more housing of all ten years from the cheapest

social housing, to get people who need it in housing but we also need

to build housing which is affordable across every tenure. It is not

moving as fast as it should be. The Mayor of London has had millions of

pounds for the government and he is foot dragging. We need to work

together across London but we can't keep the private sector out, the

private sector has to be at the centre building those homes. It is a

complex system and we need to do more. At least hopefully this will

make more people get on with the job of building more homes.

Elizabeth Campbell has made it clear that housing is her priority.

Involving finding more housing stock and where it they can build it with

private and government support. Councillors have put all

regeneration schemes in north Kensington on hold for now. Thank

you for your time. Tonight, the first meeting of the

full Kensington and Chelsea Borough Council since the fire with a new

leader in officially installed. We had from a Labour Council earlier

and said there are many things they need to discuss and they really want

this meeting the go-ahead. There is going to be a protest outside.

We can speak now to Tomassina Hassel,

a resident who was evacuated from her home on the Lancaster West

estate and has been living in a hotel ever since.

Antony Hamilton, a 24-year-old student who lives in west London.

He was at the last Grenfell protest outside Kensington

and Chelsea town hall, and will be there again tonight -

he's also a member of the Socialist Workers Party.

And Sue Caro, a campaign coordinator for Justice for Grenfell.

What you want to say to the Council? They haven't responded at all, they

have shown a lack of care and understanding of the community.

Almost every system or unwillingness to actually listen to us and

cooperate with us. It is undermining. Are you a professional

protester? No. Why are you here tonight? I figured is important we

point the blame where it lives. -- lies. It is not your area? It is

not, I have friends who live nearby. I have lived on estates on this --

like this all my life. We shouldn't allow this to happen again. We have

some residents here. What do you think about people from outside the

area joining the protest? I think it's important to keep the focus on

the tragedy, so the people that have lost their lives from Grenfell

Tower, the wider community affected and displaced as a result. I think

from other groups to come and make it about anything other than that, I

think shows hidden motives. So for people to be making it about Tory

rule or trying to get Theresa May out, I think that splits the

message. If they are using it to promote social housing policy change

and actually get the Council and the landlord to respond in a way that

they should, I'm all for it. I don't know if you heard what Anthony said,

his motivation for being here. Yes, this certainly affects anyone in

social housing and if that is something that other groups are

campaigning for, I would welcome that. But if it is purely political,

in terms of trying to get out political parties or leadership

changes right at the top of government, that's not part of the

agenda we would endorse. What is your view? Exactly what Marcus said,

it should just be about Grenfell and the surrounding blocks. At the

moment, anything else is not right now, we need to focus on this. You

absolutely don't want it to be hijacked or taken over? No violence,

no aggression, just a peaceful, silent march whatever it is, just

keep the focus on Grenfell because that is what it is about. What is

your motivation? I am part of the campaign, justice for Grenfell and