Browse content similar to 15/08/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Hello, it is Tuesday, it is 9am, I am Joanna Gosling. | :00:11. | :00:14. | |
In his first BBC interview we hear from Phil Green, | :00:15. | :00:17. | |
the agent who was managing model Chloe Ayling when she was lured | :00:18. | :00:20. | |
to Milan for a photo shoot and then kidnapped and held at a remote | :00:21. | :00:23. | |
He was the one who received the ransom demands - | :00:24. | :00:27. | |
which included a photo of Chloe which he describes as | :00:28. | :00:29. | |
It frightened the life out of me, I did not want to look at it any | :00:30. | :00:40. | |
further. It turns out, are not photograph, it was Chloe and she had | :00:41. | :00:42. | |
been photographed while unconscious. You can hear our full | :00:43. | :00:44. | |
interview with Phil Green Taylor Swift has won a case | :00:45. | :00:46. | |
against a former radio DJ David Mueller had originally | :00:47. | :00:50. | |
sued her, claiming that her But she counter-sued, | :00:51. | :00:53. | |
and yesterday a jury We hear from an American | :00:54. | :00:56. | |
journalist who was in court I would get people who would say I | :00:57. | :01:12. | |
am not even a fan of Taylor Swift but I believe in her cause and what | :01:13. | :01:17. | |
she is doing. It transcended her as a star, and it came down to the fact | :01:18. | :01:22. | |
that a woman has the right to go after someone who was sexually | :01:23. | :01:24. | |
assaulted and she was sexually assaulted. | :01:25. | :01:28. | |
We'll be speaking to a journalist who was in court | :01:29. | :01:30. | |
Also one of Australia's leading cosmetic surgeons tells this | :01:31. | :01:34. | |
programme that the link between textured breast implants | :01:35. | :01:35. | |
and cancer is more common that doctors originally thought - | :01:36. | :01:38. | |
We speak to him, and a woman who developed the disease. | :01:39. | :01:44. | |
Welcome to the programme, we're live until 11 this morning. | :01:45. | :01:48. | |
Also there have been two incidents involving trains at London | :01:49. | :01:50. | |
stations this morning - a train has derailed just outside | :01:51. | :01:53. | |
Waterloo Station after hitting a freight train at low speed - | :01:54. | :01:55. | |
no-one was injured in the incident, though passengers have been advised | :01:56. | :01:58. | |
That was at 5.40 this morning, and in the last hour a train | :01:59. | :02:06. | |
is reported to have hit the buffers at Kings Cross. | :02:07. | :02:08. | |
We will have latest on both incidents throughout the programme. | :02:09. | :02:11. | |
Do get in touch on all the stories we're talking about this morning - | :02:12. | :02:14. | |
use the hashtag Victoria LIVE and If you text, you will be charged | :02:15. | :02:17. | |
The Government is to outline plans to negotiate a temporary customs | :02:18. | :02:31. | |
relationship with the EU, immediately after Brexit. | :02:32. | :02:33. | |
Ministers want to ensure that an arrangement, | :02:34. | :02:35. | |
similar to the current customs union, will remain in place | :02:36. | :02:37. | |
until a final trade settlement takes effect. | :02:38. | :02:39. | |
The Brexit Secretary - David Davis - says it will mean businesses avoid | :02:40. | :02:42. | |
Our political correspondent Leila Nathoo joins me | :02:43. | :02:49. | |
What is the shape of what they're talking about? Awana, this is | :02:50. | :02:59. | |
designed to represent a plan, to show there is something the | :03:00. | :03:04. | |
government is united around, Cabinet is united around, something in place | :03:05. | :03:08. | |
to go to Brussels and take to Brussels when it comes to ensuring | :03:09. | :03:12. | |
goods move freely between the UK and the EU after Brexit. The government | :03:13. | :03:18. | |
is putting forward this idea of a temporary arrangement saying there | :03:19. | :03:21. | |
should be a similar arrangement of what there is now, a temporary | :03:22. | :03:25. | |
customs union designed to reassure businesses there will be no change | :03:26. | :03:28. | |
in rules and then further down the line, after that temporary period of | :03:29. | :03:34. | |
perhaps 2-3 years is over, there will be new customs arrangements in | :03:35. | :03:38. | |
place. But I think what the government is trying to do is | :03:39. | :03:42. | |
present this as an achievable, practical way for what they are | :03:43. | :03:47. | |
confident will be, then Brussels agrees to these proposals but it | :03:48. | :03:50. | |
depends very much on what Brussels thinks and the indication we had so | :03:51. | :03:55. | |
far is that Brussels is not prepared to entertain any talk of future | :03:56. | :03:59. | |
arrangements until there is progress on the divorce Bill, on issues like | :04:00. | :04:03. | |
the said Assen is so I think this is the government trying to be on the | :04:04. | :04:08. | |
front foot really and push the negotiations towards where they want | :04:09. | :04:13. | |
to go. Thank you very much. We will talk more about that later in the | :04:14. | :04:16. | |
programme and will also hear from the Brexit secretary David Davis. | :04:17. | :04:20. | |
Rachel is in the BBC Newsroom with a summary | :04:21. | :04:22. | |
A train has partially derailed at Waterloo station in London, | :04:23. | :04:28. | |
The South West Trains service struck a freight service at low speed at | :04:29. | :04:39. | |
Boxall and Waterloo stations, three people checker injuries but did not | :04:40. | :04:44. | |
need further treatment. 13 platforms out of use and disruption expected | :04:45. | :04:47. | |
to last until the end of today. In a separate incident a train | :04:48. | :04:49. | |
appears to have hit the buffers This image posted in social media | :04:50. | :04:59. | |
appears to show a train being examined by workers at the end of a | :05:00. | :05:01. | |
platform. Mudslides and floods in Sierra Leone | :05:02. | :05:01. | |
are now known to have killed more than 300 people on the outskirts | :05:02. | :05:04. | |
of the capital, Freetown. Thousands more have been forced | :05:05. | :05:06. | |
to flee from their homes. Government officials have warned | :05:07. | :05:09. | |
the number of casualties is expected to rise, | :05:10. | :05:11. | |
with hundreds of bodies thought to be still trapped under | :05:12. | :05:14. | |
the debris, as Greg Dawson reports. While some stare in stunned silence | :05:15. | :05:20. | |
at what is left of their home, others, with their bare hands, | :05:21. | :05:23. | |
are still searching and hoping. But the grim reality is that | :05:24. | :05:30. | |
beneath the tons of mud, This man says he has lost all eight | :05:31. | :05:34. | |
members of his family. Then I started hearing | :05:35. | :05:47. | |
other people crying. This is an overpopulated city, | :05:48. | :05:57. | |
with many living on the hillside in flimsy and unprotected shacks | :05:58. | :06:16. | |
that were crushed by the mud. The Red Cross estimates up to 3000 | :06:17. | :06:22. | |
people have lost their homes. Those that aren't completely | :06:23. | :06:25. | |
destroyed are caked This is a city well used to heavy | :06:26. | :06:27. | |
rains, but the scale of the damage Many roads and towns are either | :06:28. | :06:31. | |
cut off or transformed The challenge for rescuers is simply | :06:32. | :06:35. | |
trying to reach those who are still trapped, | :06:36. | :06:41. | |
awaiting supplies of food North Korean leader Kim Jong Un, | :06:42. | :06:43. | |
has been briefed by the country's military leaders on how | :06:44. | :06:53. | |
they could fulfil his threat to fire missiles near the American island | :06:54. | :06:56. | |
of Guam in the Pacific. According to North Korea state media | :06:57. | :07:07. | |
the report said he would watch US actions before making a decision. | :07:08. | :07:12. | |
Last week tensions escalated when Pyongyang threatened to fire four | :07:13. | :07:14. | |
missiles into the sea off Guam. The pop star Taylor Swift has won | :07:15. | :07:16. | |
a sexual assault case against ex-radio DJ David Mueller, | :07:17. | :07:19. | |
who she said had groped His claim for damages, | :07:20. | :07:21. | |
on the grounds that his reputation had been destroyed by false | :07:22. | :07:25. | |
allegations, was thrown out. He's been ordered to pay a token | :07:26. | :07:28. | |
one-dollar in damages. Taylor Swift said she took | :07:29. | :07:33. | |
the action against him to give other victims of sexual assault | :07:34. | :07:36. | |
the confidence to A pensioner who was stabbed while | :07:37. | :07:50. | |
trying to save the life of labour in June Cox has died. 79-year-old | :07:51. | :07:54. | |
Bernard Kenny was awarded the George medal for his bravery after he | :07:55. | :07:57. | |
intervenes when a right-wing extremist attack the MP in the | :07:58. | :08:01. | |
run-up to last your's EU referendum. Mr Kenny was seriously injured in | :08:02. | :08:05. | |
the attack but because of his death not believed to be related to the | :08:06. | :08:06. | |
incident. Rail passengers will learn this | :08:07. | :08:08. | |
morning how much more they'll be paying for some of their journeys | :08:09. | :08:11. | |
from January next year. Regulated fares which account for | :08:12. | :08:22. | |
almost half ticket will go up by the rate of inflation, the exact figure | :08:23. | :08:25. | |
will be published this morning. It is expected to be around three and a | :08:26. | :08:29. | |
half percent, well above average pay rises. | :08:30. | :08:34. | |
A girl has died after a man drove a car into a pizza restaurant | :08:35. | :08:37. | |
Twelve other people were injured in the attack, | :08:38. | :08:40. | |
Police said they're treating the incident as deliberate, | :08:41. | :08:43. | |
The driver of the car, a 32-year-old man, has been arrested. | :08:44. | :08:52. | |
The fat but fit the theory that overweight people can still be | :08:53. | :08:58. | |
healthy is nothing but a myth, according to researchers from two | :08:59. | :09:01. | |
top UK universities. Scientists found carrying extra weight can | :09:02. | :09:04. | |
increase the risk of heart disease by more than a quarter, even in | :09:05. | :09:09. | |
people who are otherwise healthy. Our health correspondence will be | :09:10. | :09:10. | |
and has more. Suggests even a blood test are | :09:11. | :09:57. | |
within the normal range excess weight is still a normal helpless. | :09:58. | :10:02. | |
The rink -- linked people with BMI is over 35 who are healthy but | :10:03. | :10:08. | |
overweight to an estimated increased risk of coronary heart disease of 26 | :10:09. | :10:13. | |
and 28% respectively. And third to those with a healthy body weight. At | :10:14. | :10:17. | |
the beginning of the study they were classified as healthy and then they | :10:18. | :10:22. | |
probably went on, and became unhealthy and then eventually some | :10:23. | :10:25. | |
of them developed heart disease, heart attack. The researchers | :10:26. | :10:30. | |
believe excess fat may well store up health problems for the future and | :10:31. | :10:34. | |
getting down to a healthy weight for whatever your sport is vitally | :10:35. | :10:38. | |
important. Sophie Hutchinson, BBC News. | :10:39. | :10:45. | |
A stuntwoman has been killed in a motorcycle accident in Canada | :10:46. | :10:47. | |
while making the sequel to the superhero film, Deadpool. | :10:48. | :10:49. | |
Witnesses described how the woman lost control of the bike, | :10:50. | :10:52. | |
jumped a kerb and crashed into a building. | :10:53. | :10:54. | |
The film's lead actor, Ryan Reynolds, said the cast | :10:55. | :10:56. | |
and crew were "heartbroken, shocked and devastated" | :10:57. | :10:58. | |
Iran says it could abandon its nuclear deal with world | :10:59. | :11:01. | |
powers "within hours", if the United States continues | :11:02. | :11:03. | |
President Hassan Rouhani told the country's parliament. | :11:04. | :11:11. | |
The deal which was struck in 2015 saw the lifting of most | :11:12. | :11:14. | |
international sanctions in return for curbs on its nuclear programme. | :11:15. | :11:20. | |
A box filled with essentials for newborn babies will be arriving | :11:21. | :11:23. | |
at the homes of new parents in Scotland from today. | :11:24. | :11:25. | |
The 'baby boxes' are inspired by a scheme in Finland to give | :11:26. | :11:28. | |
all new mums a starter pack of things like clothes, | :11:29. | :11:31. | |
But the box also doubles up as a cot, as the Scottish Government | :11:32. | :11:37. | |
wants to promote safe sleeping in a bid to reduce | :11:38. | :11:39. | |
And how do you say the name of this budget retailer, Primark? The budget | :11:40. | :11:59. | |
retailer has said the pronunciation straight, and said it liked to use a | :12:00. | :12:05. | |
particular pronunciation. Many users took to social media to express | :12:06. | :12:07. | |
their preference. That's a summary of the latest BBC | :12:08. | :12:08. | |
News - more at 9.30. A great way to get us talking about | :12:09. | :12:16. | |
their brand. The latest inflation figures due out at 9:30am, experts | :12:17. | :12:20. | |
predict inflation will outstrip growth in pay packets. | :12:21. | :12:21. | |
Do get in touch with us throughout the morning - | :12:22. | :12:24. | |
use the hashtag Victoria live and If you text, you will be charged | :12:25. | :12:27. | |
Liverpool manager Jurgen Klopp has a lot on his plate so early | :12:28. | :12:33. | |
Liverpool hoping to rid the group stages of the Champions League, they | :12:34. | :12:50. | |
are in Germany tonight. Plenty for manager Jurgen Klopp to ponder and | :12:51. | :12:53. | |
he made it clear that night's matches the only thing on his mind | :12:54. | :12:58. | |
of the future of midfielder Philippe Coutinho. The Brazilian is a target | :12:59. | :13:03. | |
for Barcelona but Liverpool rejected two bids for other highly | :13:04. | :13:07. | |
influential playmaker before continues admitted a transfer | :13:08. | :13:10. | |
request last week which the club dismissed. He did not feature in the | :13:11. | :13:14. | |
draw at Watford because of a back injury, Jurgen Klopp admitting why | :13:15. | :13:18. | |
he no speculation surrounding continual is rife, his sole focus is | :13:19. | :13:23. | |
on the game ahead. I really understand everybody is interested | :13:24. | :13:27. | |
in this but I can say in this moment I am really inking about it. -- I | :13:28. | :13:34. | |
can't say. I am here and I will answer questions but in the car, on | :13:35. | :13:37. | |
the way to this Conference, I did not think what can I say because I | :13:38. | :13:41. | |
have to think of other things. Honest and animated as ever. Chelsea | :13:42. | :13:48. | |
have a battle on the hands trying to get Diego Costa to report for | :13:49. | :13:53. | |
training, he is still in Brazil? The Chelsea striker rarely far from the | :13:54. | :13:59. | |
headlines. His -- he is more notable because of his absence, understood | :14:00. | :14:02. | |
he has been ordered to return to the Premier League champions up to being | :14:03. | :14:05. | |
fined for failing to report for pre-season training. He was told by | :14:06. | :14:10. | |
the manager Antonio Costa bath-macro Antonio Conte back in a text message | :14:11. | :14:14. | |
that he was not part of his plans for the season. The striker is | :14:15. | :14:18. | |
currently in Brazil, threatening to set out the remaining two years of | :14:19. | :14:21. | |
his contract if he is not allowed to leave. It's been mooted he has his | :14:22. | :14:30. | |
heart set on legal action as he wants to return to Atletico Madrid. | :14:31. | :14:35. | |
Andy Murray losing his number one slot to Rafael Nadal. He has been | :14:36. | :14:41. | |
blighted by injury, knocked out in struggling all season and Andy | :14:42. | :14:45. | |
Murray set to lose his number one status in the world, taken by Rafael | :14:46. | :14:49. | |
Nadal who will take the mantle for the first time since 2014. It would | :14:50. | :14:55. | |
have been Wimbledon champion Roger Federer but the Swiss has pulled out | :14:56. | :14:59. | |
of the Cincinnati Masters, no Andy Murray there either, Rafael Nadal | :15:00. | :15:02. | |
who reached round to their with these claimed the spot almost by | :15:03. | :15:07. | |
default, being as humble as he is, says he is sorry it comes at the | :15:08. | :15:10. | |
expense of his top rivals. Thank you so much. | :15:11. | :15:20. | |
Now let's go back to the extraordinary story of Chloe Ayling. | :15:21. | :15:29. | |
for what she thought was a photoshoot, but instead says | :15:30. | :15:33. | |
she ended up being drugged and kidnapped and held for six days | :15:34. | :15:36. | |
by Lukasz Herba, a Polish national from Birmingham. | :15:37. | :15:38. | |
She claims he told her she was going to be sold into sex slavery then | :15:39. | :15:41. | |
issued a ransom note to a number of people in the UK for her release. | :15:42. | :15:45. | |
One of those was Phil Green, her agent at the time - | :15:46. | :15:48. | |
who had initially booked her on the job with Lukasz, | :15:49. | :15:50. | |
who was posing as a photographer named Andre. | :15:51. | :15:52. | |
In his only BBC interview, Phil Green - that former agent - | :15:53. | :15:55. | |
He praises Chloe's bravery throughout this ordeal | :15:56. | :15:58. | |
and claims she has been offered counselling but has refused, | :15:59. | :16:00. | |
despite her now being afraid to go anywhere alone. | :16:01. | :16:02. | |
I began by asking Phil what the arrangements | :16:03. | :16:04. | |
First of all, from my point of view, the photographer, | :16:05. | :16:16. | |
a man called Andre Lazio - he called himself - | :16:17. | :16:18. | |
specifically asked for Chloe to do | :16:19. | :16:20. | |
With all clients, particularly new clients, I carry out | :16:21. | :16:23. | |
I asked him who he was, where he was, does he have a website, | :16:24. | :16:28. | |
had he done work previously, what this particular job was for, | :16:29. | :16:31. | |
where the studio is, check it out on Google maps, | :16:32. | :16:33. | |
Then we start talking about arrangements for the shoot, | :16:34. | :16:39. | |
which would include fees, expenses, and then the travel | :16:40. | :16:48. | |
arrangements for the shoot, would she be required to arrive | :16:49. | :16:50. | |
the day before, would the photographer pay for the flight | :16:51. | :16:53. | |
So all that information came together and it ticked | :16:54. | :16:56. | |
There were no alarm bells ringing at any point? | :16:57. | :17:04. | |
Nothing flagged up whatsoever to make me suspicious that this man | :17:05. | :17:06. | |
What checks had you carried out to make sure that this | :17:07. | :17:10. | |
Because she's been speaking and says you didn't carry out | :17:11. | :17:15. | |
She wouldn't necessarily know the checks that go on in the agency. | :17:16. | :17:22. | |
We, as I said, carry out due diligence checks and we wouldn't | :17:23. | :17:25. | |
expose anyone to a situation like that without fully | :17:26. | :17:27. | |
How did the checks all pass, though, when he was not what he said he was? | :17:28. | :17:38. | |
The photographer had a website which told me | :17:39. | :17:40. | |
he'd done previous work, there were models | :17:41. | :17:44. | |
I assumed he'd photographed previously. | :17:45. | :17:50. | |
And every check regarding his studio and location, there was nothing | :17:51. | :17:53. | |
being flagged up for me to think or even suggest that there | :17:54. | :17:57. | |
was anything suspicious about him or what he was proposing. | :17:58. | :18:02. | |
So you and she were very happy when she went off to Milan | :18:03. | :18:05. | |
What was the first that you knew that there was a problem? | :18:06. | :18:11. | |
Well, there was a meeting in Paris three or four months before | :18:12. | :18:17. | |
the ordeal in Italy took place, so therefore the attacker, | :18:18. | :18:26. | |
we'll now call him, actually saw face to face the model in Paris. | :18:27. | :18:30. | |
On the eve of the shoot, there was a terrorist attack | :18:31. | :18:33. | |
in Paris on the Champs-Elysees, a policeman got shot. | :18:34. | :18:37. | |
There was a lot of police activity around that night. | :18:38. | :18:42. | |
And I'd given each other their phone numbers. | :18:43. | :18:44. | |
I said if there's a problem, phone each other and you | :18:45. | :18:46. | |
And a call came through, I think it was a text to begin with, | :18:47. | :18:59. | |
to Chloe, from the photographer, saying my studio's been ransacked | :19:00. | :19:01. | |
while all this activity was going on last night. | :19:02. | :19:03. | |
They've taken things from my studio and I'm not able | :19:04. | :19:06. | |
The photographer, in inverted commas, met the model and they had | :19:07. | :19:10. | |
a brief conversation and 100 euros were handed over to say, well, | :19:11. | :19:13. | |
that will keep you going with food and taxi fares during the day. | :19:14. | :19:20. | |
You know, to be honest, both Chloe and myself felt sorry for him. | :19:21. | :19:24. | |
His studio had been ransacked, he'd already paid for the shoot and, | :19:25. | :19:27. | |
you know, we thought he's getting nothing for his money. | :19:28. | :19:33. | |
He said, well, look, I'll rearrange the shoot, | :19:34. | :19:35. | |
How ironic that then he would set this up in Milan | :19:36. | :19:43. | |
and the same situation, same kind of shoot, | :19:44. | :19:47. | |
You received an e-mail from the kidnapper. | :19:48. | :19:59. | |
The evening of the shoot I was contacted by Chloe's mother | :20:00. | :20:07. | |
And I was saying to her, well, perhaps she's either missed | :20:08. | :20:16. | |
the flight or the flight's delayed, or she had a shoot the next day | :20:17. | :20:20. | |
in Ibiza, she might have thought I'm going to fly straight | :20:21. | :20:23. | |
So I was trying to sort of play it down, there must be a reason why | :20:24. | :20:29. | |
But then the next morning came and we checked, | :20:30. | :20:33. | |
The phone was ringing still with an overseas ringing tone, | :20:34. | :20:39. | |
and we kind of thought that, still, she could possibly be | :20:40. | :20:42. | |
But I said to her mother, look, I think you'd actually | :20:43. | :20:49. | |
In her area it's the Metropolitan Police. | :20:50. | :20:54. | |
She went to Croydon police station and told everybody there. | :20:55. | :21:00. | |
It wasn't until just after 10am on July the 12th, | :21:01. | :21:02. | |
the day after the shoot, when I opened my e-mail inbox | :21:03. | :21:05. | |
I found something incredibly sinister and worrying. | :21:06. | :21:13. | |
It was the first e-mail contact from someone on behalf | :21:14. | :21:18. | |
of the Black Death group saying to me, chillingly, that they'd taken | :21:19. | :21:24. | |
Chloe and I was to find some ransom money for her. | :21:25. | :21:27. | |
What detail was in the e-mail that you got? | :21:28. | :21:30. | |
Who they were, the Black Death group, they gave me the names | :21:31. | :21:33. | |
of three businessmen, UK businessmen, I think that Chloe | :21:34. | :21:35. | |
And said I was to contact any one of these three or all three | :21:36. | :21:47. | |
At that stage no figure was mentioned as to | :21:48. | :21:52. | |
But there was a deadline, the deadline was four | :21:53. | :21:58. | |
days later on the Sunday when they were going to say | :21:59. | :22:04. | |
if you don't pay any money by then we're going to offer Chloe | :22:05. | :22:10. | |
to auction, where she may be sold to Russian Mafia. | :22:11. | :22:18. | |
How seriously did you take that e-mail? | :22:19. | :22:20. | |
My first thought was to ring the police in Italy, and I did that. | :22:21. | :22:24. | |
I then rang the British Consulate in Milan, because I knew | :22:25. | :22:26. | |
They took it extremely seriously, rang the Foreign Office special | :22:27. | :22:31. | |
crimes division who then contacted me to discuss the details | :22:32. | :22:34. | |
And then I was contacted by my own force, special | :22:35. | :22:39. | |
operations from East Midlands, where I'm based, who came | :22:40. | :22:43. | |
to the office because this is the place where I'm receiving | :22:44. | :22:46. | |
the e-mails and they then took over the case. | :22:47. | :22:50. | |
More or less the same time, three e-mails came through simultaneously. | :22:51. | :23:00. | |
And they were just sort of ratcheting up the pressure. | :23:01. | :23:05. | |
One e-mail was from supposedly a different person saying | :23:06. | :23:08. | |
The second e-mail then contained an attachment, | :23:09. | :23:16. | |
In the attachment was a press release. | :23:17. | :23:22. | |
It said this is Chloe Ayling, she's aged so-and-so, | :23:23. | :23:26. | |
her measurements are blah blah blah and she will be offered | :23:27. | :23:33. | |
More or less saying express your interest in this now. | :23:34. | :23:39. | |
Then the other attachment, slightly more sinister, | :23:40. | :23:47. | |
was a photograph that had been taken of Chloe. | :23:48. | :23:50. | |
I must admit, I didn't identify her from the brief look | :23:51. | :23:55. | |
In fact, it frightened the life out of me. | :23:56. | :23:58. | |
I didn't want to look at it any further. | :23:59. | :24:01. | |
It turns out on that photograph was Chloe. | :24:02. | :24:03. | |
She'd been photographed while unconscious and... | :24:04. | :24:06. | |
Well, I didn't know at the time, obviously, but I was told later | :24:07. | :24:12. | |
it was at the studio where she was taken. | :24:13. | :24:16. | |
How much time elapsed, then, between you getting these e-mails | :24:17. | :24:19. | |
and what happened next in terms of her finally being released? | :24:20. | :24:23. | |
Well, we've now reached day three following the kidnap and the police | :24:24. | :24:30. | |
were keeping up this sort of dialogue with the kidnappers. | :24:31. | :24:39. | |
Via e-mail, intercepting my e-mails and sending them e-mails | :24:40. | :24:46. | |
And making some kind of offer just to keep this attacker interested | :24:47. | :24:53. | |
And these kind of conversations, I mean, they were few | :24:54. | :24:59. | |
There might be an e-mail sent in the morning and it might not be | :25:00. | :25:04. | |
until the evening that a reply was given back. | :25:05. | :25:09. | |
So it was tremendously frustrating for everyone involved. | :25:10. | :25:12. | |
It was being treated with extreme seriousness and it | :25:13. | :25:18. | |
wasn't until the Sunday, this is following the kidnapping | :25:19. | :25:24. | |
on the Tuesday, the Sunday we heard there was some activity | :25:25. | :25:27. | |
It turns out that the early hours of Monday morning, | :25:28. | :25:33. | |
the attacker, this Lukasz Herba, walks into the consulate office | :25:34. | :25:44. | |
with Chloe and says, "I'm her friend, she's the girl | :25:45. | :25:46. | |
I've brought her through for safety." | :25:47. | :25:55. | |
And you can watch the second part of our interview with kidnapped | :25:56. | :25:57. | |
model Chloe Ayling's former agent Phil Green after ten | :25:58. | :26:00. | |
on the programme today, where he tells us what happened | :26:01. | :26:04. | |
after Chloe arrived at the consulate and says that after her | :26:05. | :26:06. | |
ordeal she is now scared to go anywhere alone. | :26:07. | :26:12. | |
We speak to one of Australia's leading breast surgeons | :26:13. | :26:16. | |
about the link between implants and cancer, and a woman | :26:17. | :26:18. | |
who developed a rare form of cancer from her breast implant. | :26:19. | :26:22. | |
We pay tribute to Bernard Kenny, the pensioner who was stabbed trying | :26:23. | :26:25. | |
Here's Rachel in the BBC Newsroom with a summary of todays news. | :26:26. | :26:39. | |
The Government is to outline plans to negotiate a temporary customs | :26:40. | :26:42. | |
relationship with the EU, immediately after Brexit. | :26:43. | :26:45. | |
Ministers want to ensure that an arrangement, | :26:46. | :26:47. | |
similar to the current customs union, will remain in place | :26:48. | :26:50. | |
until a final trade settlement takes effect. | :26:51. | :27:00. | |
The EU Commission said the move was a positive step towards phase one of | :27:01. | :27:07. | |
the negotiations and will study the paper carefully. | :27:08. | :27:08. | |
The Brexit Secretary - David Davis - says it will mean businesses avoid | :27:09. | :27:11. | |
We sell about 230 billion euros of goods and services to the European | :27:12. | :27:25. | |
Union each year. They sell 290 billion to us. I was in Bavaria two | :27:26. | :27:31. | |
or three weeks ago. They sell BMWs, electronic goods, they have got an | :27:32. | :27:35. | |
incredibly strong interest in something like this so there's an | :27:36. | :27:38. | |
interest on both sides of not doing each of the harm if you like. Both | :27:39. | :27:43. | |
to do with customs arrangements but also to do with having a free trade | :27:44. | :27:45. | |
area in the first place. Thousands have been forced to flee | :27:46. | :27:59. | |
from their homes in Freetown. Government officials said the amount | :28:00. | :28:02. | |
of casualties is expected to rise with hundreds of bodies thought to | :28:03. | :28:04. | |
be trapped under the debris. A train has partially derailed at | :28:05. | :28:11. | |
Waterloo Station in London following an operational incident. The service | :28:12. | :28:16. | |
struck a freight train at low speed between Waterloo and Vauxhall | :28:17. | :28:21. | |
stations. Three people were checked for injuries but didn't need further | :28:22. | :28:25. | |
treatment. Disruption is expected to last until the end of today. | :28:26. | :28:30. | |
In a separate incident train appears to have hit the buffers at King's | :28:31. | :28:37. | |
Cross station. This picture appears to show the train being examined by | :28:38. | :28:43. | |
workers at the end of the platform. Taylor Swift has won sexual assault | :28:44. | :28:45. | |
case against David Mueller. His claim for damages, | :28:46. | :28:58. | |
on the grounds that his reputation had been destroyed by false | :28:59. | :29:03. | |
allegations, was thrown out. He's been ordered to pay a token | :29:04. | :29:05. | |
one-dollar in damages. Taylor Swift said she took | :29:06. | :29:08. | |
the action against him to give other victims of sexual assault | :29:09. | :29:11. | |
the confidence to That's a summary of the latest BBC | :29:12. | :29:12. | |
News - more at 10am. Let's go straight to Joanna. | :29:13. | :29:24. | |
We just want to bring you some breaking news on the London | :29:25. | :29:27. | |
Underground, we are hearing that smoke has filled a train carriage at | :29:28. | :29:38. | |
Holborn station. Some are saying there was a loud bang, then smoke | :29:39. | :29:43. | |
and the station has been evacuated. We are also hearing that two fire | :29:44. | :29:50. | |
engines have been sent to Holborn underground station. The Fire | :29:51. | :29:58. | |
Service saying two fire engines have been sent. Reports on social media | :29:59. | :30:06. | |
are potentially of a bang and then smoke filling the platform so we | :30:07. | :30:08. | |
will of course keep you updated. Thank you. The Liverpool manager | :30:09. | :30:22. | |
Jurgen Klopp insists the Champions League fixture tonight in Germany is | :30:23. | :30:25. | |
the only thing on his mind and not the future of Philippe Coutinho. The | :30:26. | :30:29. | |
Brazilian is eyeing a move to another club but Jurgen Klopp says | :30:30. | :30:35. | |
his mind is firmly on the fixture. Diego Costa being ordered to return | :30:36. | :30:41. | |
to Chelsea after failing to emerge for pre-season training. He's been | :30:42. | :30:44. | |
to force a move back to Atletico Madrid after telling and being told | :30:45. | :30:48. | |
by the Chelsea manager he's not part of plans for this season. Premier | :30:49. | :30:55. | |
League clubs are to discuss closing the summer transfer window. | :30:56. | :30:59. | |
Currently runs until August 31, they said to vote on the idea next month | :31:00. | :31:03. | |
and Rafael Nadal will take the world number one ranking from Andy Murray | :31:04. | :31:07. | |
this week. But after Roger Federer pulled out of the Cincinnati | :31:08. | :31:13. | |
Masters. A quick update? Thank you. Just to let you know, we will keep | :31:14. | :31:18. | |
you updated on what is happy make at Holborn station, the underground | :31:19. | :31:24. | |
station evacuated after reports of a loud and, after which smoke filled | :31:25. | :31:27. | |
the platform. British Transport Police have treated to say we are at | :31:28. | :31:31. | |
the station after reports of smoke on a train line, the station closed | :31:32. | :31:38. | |
while officers and London fire investigate and London Fire Brigade | :31:39. | :31:41. | |
have separately said they are investigating reports of smoke on | :31:42. | :31:45. | |
the platform, two fire engines have been sent to investigate. We will of | :31:46. | :31:52. | |
course keep you updated. Let me also bring you the latest inflation | :31:53. | :31:56. | |
figures. The Office for National Statistics just putting out the | :31:57. | :31:58. | |
latest inflation figures, the rate of retail the retail price index | :31:59. | :32:06. | |
inflation, the RPI, which is used to set real season-ticket prices rose | :32:07. | :32:11. | |
to two points 6% in July, but according to the ONS. That's the | :32:12. | :32:18. | |
first figure. We will get other figures around inflation. -- three | :32:19. | :32:26. | |
points six. It had been anticipated inflation figures which show | :32:27. | :32:28. | |
inflation outstripping wage growth. The RPI figure at the moment. | :32:29. | :32:37. | |
We will bring you more on that, and we'll be talking to our business | :32:38. | :32:41. | |
correspondent for further analysis. One of Australia's leading cosmetic | :32:42. | :32:46. | |
surgeons has told this programme the link between breast implants | :32:47. | :32:48. | |
and cancer is more common than doctors initially thought - | :32:49. | :32:51. | |
but stresses the condition Women who have breast implants run | :32:52. | :32:53. | |
the risk of developing a type of blood cancer called Anaplastic | :32:54. | :32:57. | |
large-cell lymphoma - or ALCL. Most surgeons believe the disease | :32:58. | :33:02. | |
affects around 1 in 300,000 patients with breast implants - | :33:03. | :33:05. | |
however, health authorities in Australia estimate it | :33:06. | :33:07. | |
affects around 1 in 5,000. The MHRA - which is responsible | :33:08. | :33:13. | |
for ensuring medicines and medical devices work in the UK - | :33:14. | :33:16. | |
says its investigation Well joining us | :33:17. | :33:18. | |
is one of Australia's leading breast surgeons - | :33:19. | :33:29. | |
DR DANIEL FLEMING - who played a key role | :33:30. | :33:31. | |
in the country's health authorities increasing their official | :33:32. | :33:33. | |
advice on this issue. SANDI CURRIE - who developed | :33:34. | :33:35. | |
a rare form of cancer And - MR KEVIN HANCOCK - | :33:36. | :33:37. | |
a consultant plastic surgeon and a member | :33:38. | :33:42. | |
of the British Association Welcome, all of you and thank you | :33:43. | :33:57. | |
for joining us. Daniel, tell us more about the analysis you carried out | :33:58. | :34:02. | |
and what it indicates on the risk of this particular form of cancer from | :34:03. | :34:06. | |
breast implants? As you said it was initially thought this was extremely | :34:07. | :34:11. | |
rare in the order of one in hundreds of thousands of patients, then it | :34:12. | :34:14. | |
was one intensive thousands but the latest evidence from Australia shows | :34:15. | :34:19. | |
it may be as common as one in 1000 patients with textured breast | :34:20. | :34:21. | |
implants but it's important to keep that in context. Compare it to the | :34:22. | :34:26. | |
risk of any woman with or without implants of developing breast cancer | :34:27. | :34:30. | |
in her lifetime is one in eight, another way of thinking about one in | :34:31. | :34:34. | |
1000 is no denying .9% of these implants not getting the condition. | :34:35. | :34:39. | |
It's rare and yet when the stats go from one in 300,000 to one in 1000 | :34:40. | :34:44. | |
that is a dramatic shift, why? We are looking for it. It usually | :34:45. | :34:48. | |
presents with swelling around the breast, less swelling with -- less | :34:49. | :34:54. | |
commonly with a mass. Around 2008-9, when patients presented with that | :34:55. | :34:59. | |
took the fluid off and didn't look for the condition but since then we | :35:00. | :35:02. | |
are looking for it and we are finding it often. Tell us about the | :35:03. | :35:06. | |
condition, what is the prognosis? The other thing women want to know | :35:07. | :35:10. | |
is what's going to happen to me if I am one in 1000 to get it. Some good | :35:11. | :35:16. | |
news. For the vast majority of women who get this condition they will get | :35:17. | :35:19. | |
a non-aggressive version of it, it's not going to threaten their lives | :35:20. | :35:24. | |
and it will be cured by the removal of the implants and the membrane | :35:25. | :35:27. | |
surrounding them. Let's bring in Sandy, you developed this condition | :35:28. | :35:31. | |
from a textured implant, tell us what happened. Pretty much I woke up | :35:32. | :35:40. | |
one morning and my right breast had swollen about two cup sizes bigger | :35:41. | :35:48. | |
than the other so I rang my surgeon, concerned with what was happening, I | :35:49. | :35:53. | |
didn't know if I had a rupture so he sent me to get a needle aspiration | :35:54. | :36:00. | |
and some ultrasound is done and he rang me five days later to say I did | :36:01. | :36:06. | |
in fact have a LCL, this particular cancer. What happened then? Were the | :36:07. | :36:17. | |
implants taken up? It was out of his field, he wasn't confident, he was a | :36:18. | :36:24. | |
cosmetic surgeon and I would suggest struggling to go to a plastic | :36:25. | :36:29. | |
surgeon, when he rang me he said he had forwarded all my files onto an | :36:30. | :36:36. | |
oncologist in Brisbane and I would then be dealing with the oncologist | :36:37. | :36:43. | |
so I went to see her, she ran more tests to verify I did have ALCL and | :36:44. | :36:52. | |
the surgeons at the hospital removed both my implants. Was that it, did | :36:53. | :36:59. | |
that fix it? Pretty much, I've had to go back every three months and | :37:00. | :37:03. | |
have tests done to make sure it hasn't returned. And they will keep | :37:04. | :37:10. | |
doing that probably until next year. Just checking on me to see what in | :37:11. | :37:21. | |
fact is happening and it's, I suppose I am a bit of a guinea pig, | :37:22. | :37:25. | |
if you want to look at it like that. Daniel, the fact that taking up the | :37:26. | :37:30. | |
implants can immediately fix this issue makes us, obviously, there is | :37:31. | :37:33. | |
the direct correlation which makes you wonder whether they should be | :37:34. | :37:37. | |
used and there are some calls to ban them, you have one of the implants | :37:38. | :37:40. | |
here, it is the texture type. That's right. You think they should be | :37:41. | :37:46. | |
banned? Very interesting question, three types of implant, a rough and | :37:47. | :37:52. | |
service, smooth plastic bag type service and another type of the | :37:53. | :37:58. | |
polyurethanes foam. The question is why doesn't everybody has moved | :37:59. | :38:01. | |
implants, the reason for that is the texture and the polyurethanes exists | :38:02. | :38:06. | |
to reduce the risk of complications which can shorten the length of time | :38:07. | :38:11. | |
the implant blasts, visibly hardening of the implants in a | :38:12. | :38:15. | |
condition called contracture. What we believe is that patients have two | :38:16. | :38:20. | |
logical choice is, if you want minimum risk of ALCL chooses move | :38:21. | :38:24. | |
implant at except you have a higher risk of other convocations, if you | :38:25. | :38:29. | |
want to reduce that risk of complications choose the | :38:30. | :38:31. | |
polyurethanes implant which reduces the risk of complications but has a | :38:32. | :38:35. | |
similar risk of ALCL as these implants. We would Saber probably | :38:36. | :38:39. | |
isn't a logical choice to choose a textured implant has little or no | :38:40. | :38:43. | |
benefit the other complications and still has this risk of ALCL, albeit | :38:44. | :38:49. | |
a lower risk. Kevin Hancock, an expert in this country says ALCL | :38:50. | :38:53. | |
linked to breast implants is a potential bombshell that husband | :38:54. | :38:55. | |
swept under the carpet for five years. This is of course going to be | :38:56. | :39:02. | |
worrying for anybody with textured breast implants. How do you see it? | :39:03. | :39:07. | |
I think it's very difficult. This is something that was only first | :39:08. | :39:13. | |
reported at the end of the 19 97, was the first case and as Doctor | :39:14. | :39:19. | |
Fleming has said, we are really not sure yet about the significance of | :39:20. | :39:23. | |
this disease. What we do know and what we should stress to patients is | :39:24. | :39:30. | |
this is breast cancer, this is a cancer that arises in the fluid and | :39:31. | :39:37. | |
the tissue surrounding the implant. And is thought to arise because of | :39:38. | :39:42. | |
inflammation in that layer Doctor Fleming spoke about. He spoke about | :39:43. | :39:47. | |
the texturing to reduce the risk of capital sat hard on the implant. Why | :39:48. | :39:56. | |
is it Daniel that the textured implant that is causing this | :39:57. | :39:59. | |
problem... There are a couple of theories. We know that patients who | :40:00. | :40:06. | |
develop ALCL is the result of some sort of long-term inflammatory | :40:07. | :40:09. | |
process and it also seems to be a genetic component in that, that's | :40:10. | :40:13. | |
why some people get it, some don't, they process the inflammation | :40:14. | :40:17. | |
differently and the idea is that they textured implant, the Robins | :40:18. | :40:21. | |
service me a retreat and cause long-term inflammation. The other | :40:22. | :40:23. | |
theory is these microscopic eggs and crannies on the texturing might | :40:24. | :40:28. | |
harbour small numbers of bacteria which could set up a long-term | :40:29. | :40:32. | |
inflammatory process. Kevin, what would you say to patients in this | :40:33. | :40:35. | |
country, if you have the choice between an implant that will not | :40:36. | :40:40. | |
cause you, not likely to cause you this particular issue, does it make | :40:41. | :40:46. | |
sense to avoid it? I think at the moment we don't really know enough | :40:47. | :40:49. | |
about this to make sweeping statements like that. All the | :40:50. | :40:57. | |
professional associations have advised their members to discuss | :40:58. | :40:59. | |
this with all patients having breast implants. And now we are very aware | :41:00. | :41:05. | |
of the way this disease presents which is usually 7-8 years after the | :41:06. | :41:13. | |
implants have been putting and as your other speaker said, presents as | :41:14. | :41:18. | |
a swelling of the breast so now we are very tuned into this and we are | :41:19. | :41:22. | |
very aware that anybody in that situation needs to be investigated | :41:23. | :41:26. | |
further. When you say we are very tuned into it, it's not something | :41:27. | :41:31. | |
that has been widely known about. Is it certain that if someone has an | :41:32. | :41:36. | |
issue and they go to their GP or surgeon and point it out but it will | :41:37. | :41:40. | |
immediately be recognised? How much awareness is there? There is | :41:41. | :41:45. | |
certainly awareness in the popular press. This is again, it's important | :41:46. | :41:52. | |
that patients have long-term contact with the surgeons that carried out | :41:53. | :41:56. | |
the surgery so they are able to return to them if there are any | :41:57. | :42:01. | |
concerns and we have seen in the past with the PIP scandal that | :42:02. | :42:06. | |
getting back to clinics and surgeons can be difficult for patients. How | :42:07. | :42:12. | |
do you feel now about it? Sandy, after everything that happened to | :42:13. | :42:15. | |
you, do you wish you'd never gone down that path of having those | :42:16. | :42:23. | |
implants? Well, no, I mean, I never, when you first go to consult and | :42:24. | :42:29. | |
explain all the pros and cons, anything is a risk, any surgery. And | :42:30. | :42:37. | |
I did not expect to have this outcome so at that point in my life, | :42:38. | :42:43. | |
I got my implants when I was 45, quite late and the ALCL appeared six | :42:44. | :42:52. | |
years after the implantation. Sorry to interrupt but was too mentioned | :42:53. | :42:58. | |
to you as one of the potential cons? Yes and you also get literature from | :42:59. | :43:04. | |
your surgeon, they do go through every thing, the pros and cons what | :43:05. | :43:09. | |
can happen to you, the H and, mind did capture late and mine was | :43:10. | :43:21. | |
Brazilian textured implant and I... Obviously... Breasts are important | :43:22. | :43:29. | |
to us otherwise we wouldn't be lining up to get them done. So, I | :43:30. | :43:36. | |
have done it again, I have been reimplanted and I'm probably one of | :43:37. | :43:40. | |
the few that have and I was lucky enough to find Doctor Fleming who is | :43:41. | :43:49. | |
an expert with ALCL. So with the new implants, sorry, did you go for | :43:50. | :43:56. | |
smoother texture? I rang Doctor Fleming, he graciously rang me back | :43:57. | :44:03. | |
after hours and talked to the about it and then I had my consult with | :44:04. | :44:07. | |
him I said to him, at the end of the day I will be guided by what you | :44:08. | :44:12. | |
tell me, if you are saying no, this isn't a good idea I will go with | :44:13. | :44:16. | |
that because my options of how I was left was totally disfigured so my | :44:17. | :44:24. | |
options were like, just do a complete hysterectomy or get | :44:25. | :44:29. | |
reimplanted. Because I am having to look every day at my breasts which | :44:30. | :44:34. | |
were disfigured, wasn't going to be much of a life for me. So I have | :44:35. | :44:41. | |
taken the course of being reimplanted and I am watching even | :44:42. | :44:46. | |
more closely to see what progress that has. Daniel, when Sandy | :44:47. | :44:52. | |
described she knew there was an issue, it was obvious, the breast | :44:53. | :44:56. | |
has fallen dramatically, what should people look out for as a potential | :44:57. | :45:02. | |
symptom? This disorder most commonly presents as swelling, an | :45:03. | :45:04. | |
accumulation of fluid around the breast, most people with an | :45:05. | :45:08. | |
accumulation will not have ALCL but they should have checked, go see | :45:09. | :45:12. | |
your doctor. Does that emerge quite quickly? Once the cancer is there | :45:13. | :45:16. | |
are, it's not that it's been there and other symptoms won't have you | :45:17. | :45:20. | |
noticed? We don't know the answer to that but when the swelling appears | :45:21. | :45:25. | |
it is dramatic, or for a day or two, it can't morally present with a long | :45:26. | :45:29. | |
switch if the patient presents with, they need to have that investigator | :45:30. | :45:32. | |
but the other thing that is important, viewers who are watching | :45:33. | :45:35. | |
and may have textured implants and are worrying... The recommendation | :45:36. | :45:41. | |
is there is no need for any special investigation or screening for | :45:42. | :45:44. | |
patients who don't have symptoms, they should do the normal monthly | :45:45. | :45:48. | |
checks for lumps and have a mammogram when they reach the aged | :45:49. | :45:50. | |
necessary to have one. Thank you all. | :45:51. | :45:54. | |
The MHRA - which is responsible for ensuring medicines and medical | :45:55. | :45:56. | |
devices work in the UK gave us this statement: | :45:57. | :45:59. | |
Research into this area is yet to provide a definitive answer | :46:00. | :46:01. | |
as to how ALCL develops although there are several | :46:02. | :46:03. | |
ALCL is very rare but it is important healthcare professionals | :46:04. | :46:07. | |
and women who have implants know about it. | :46:08. | :46:09. | |
If you develop a breast lump or swelling around your implant more | :46:10. | :46:12. | |
than six months after having the breast implant you should seek | :46:13. | :46:14. | |
We hear from a journalist who was in court throughout | :46:15. | :46:32. | |
the Taylor Swift sexual assault case. | :46:33. | :46:34. | |
I hear people say I'm not even a fan of Taylor Swift but I believe in her | :46:35. | :46:42. | |
cause, so it transcended her as a star and came down to the issue of a | :46:43. | :46:46. | |
woman has a right to go after someone who sexually assaulted her, | :46:47. | :46:51. | |
and she was assaulted. And the latest inflation figures have come | :46:52. | :47:01. | |
out, showing living costs which are used to set rail season ticket | :47:02. | :47:09. | |
prices rose to 3.6% in July outstripping growth in pay packets. | :47:10. | :47:16. | |
Ben Thompson is here. Yes, it is more than average earnings. We are | :47:17. | :47:22. | |
told rail fares will rise by more than 3.6% and it is more than double | :47:23. | :47:26. | |
the increase we had last year, so again the pressure is on real | :47:27. | :47:30. | |
commuters who will feel this more than most. We should be clear that | :47:31. | :47:35. | |
this is what's known as regulated fares, the ones which are limited. | :47:36. | :47:40. | |
The rail companies have a cap on how much they can charge. The | :47:41. | :47:46. | |
unregulated fares will be determined in September, but 3.6% increase from | :47:47. | :48:00. | |
January. It is known as the RPI measure, used to determine the train | :48:01. | :48:04. | |
fares. The CPR measure, which we pay attention to to get a better view of | :48:05. | :48:09. | |
what's happening in the economy, that rose by 2.6%, still well above | :48:10. | :48:15. | |
what we are earning so we will feel worse off in our pockets and our | :48:16. | :48:20. | |
money is going less far. Rail lobby groups are now saying you should be | :48:21. | :48:25. | |
using the lower one, not the higher one. That is not fair to rail | :48:26. | :48:32. | |
commuters. But nonetheless, as it stands at 3.6% rise in rail fares | :48:33. | :48:36. | |
for passengers from January. Thank you. | :48:37. | :48:39. | |
The government has been setting out its plans for the future | :48:40. | :48:41. | |
It's been focusing on a temporary customs union which could be put | :48:42. | :48:45. | |
in place to help prevent chaos at Britain's borders | :48:46. | :48:48. | |
My colleague Adam Fleming explains how the customs union | :48:49. | :48:51. | |
works at the moment and how that might change. | :48:52. | :48:57. | |
Under the customs union, the EU has won external border for the import | :48:58. | :49:01. | |
of goods from abroad. If import taxes - known as tariffs - | :49:02. | :49:14. | |
are paid, they're paid when that It can then move around | :49:15. | :49:17. | |
between countries with no further The British Government wants | :49:18. | :49:20. | |
something as similar as possible to this arrangement for a temporary | :49:21. | :49:24. | |
period after Brexit in March 2019. So how could a future customs union | :49:25. | :49:27. | |
between the UK and Europe look and how does the government | :49:28. | :49:30. | |
see it working? Our political correspondent | :49:31. | :49:32. | |
Emma Vardy has more. David Davis has been speaking, | :49:33. | :49:41. | |
hasn't he? That's right, David Davis will be sitting down in Brussels to | :49:42. | :49:44. | |
negotiate this at the end of this month and he has talked about the | :49:45. | :49:48. | |
option of this interim customs union being as close as possible to the | :49:49. | :49:53. | |
current arrangements. He says that is to prevent this cliff edge for | :49:54. | :49:58. | |
business, to allow them to adjust to any new regulations. So how long | :49:59. | :50:02. | |
might it take he was asked this morning, said it was hard to say, | :50:03. | :50:07. | |
maybe around two years, may be shorter. But that's all very well, | :50:08. | :50:18. | |
this is the UK setting out what it once, how are we going to persuade | :50:19. | :50:21. | |
the EU to agree to it? David Davis said it is as much in their interest | :50:22. | :50:22. | |
as it is in ours. We sell about 230 billion euros | :50:23. | :50:32. | |
of goods and services I was in Bavaria two | :50:33. | :50:34. | |
or three weeks ago. They sell BMWs, electronic goods, | :50:35. | :50:39. | |
they have got an incredibly strong interest in something like this | :50:40. | :50:42. | |
so there's an interest on both sides of not doing each | :50:43. | :50:45. | |
other harm, if you like. Both to do with customs arrangements | :50:46. | :50:47. | |
but also to do with having a free So you see his argument that if | :50:48. | :50:59. | |
there is an interruption in trade, it hurts everyone. He will have to | :51:00. | :51:04. | |
negotiate this, but this is one set of papers, proposals we will be | :51:05. | :51:09. | |
getting, many more to come but it's taken a year since the referendum to | :51:10. | :51:13. | |
start to get a clearer picture of what the UK foresees in Brexit in | :51:14. | :51:19. | |
2019, and what we are getting today is a real strong indication of the | :51:20. | :51:25. | |
size of the challenge ahead. Thank you, Emma. | :51:26. | :51:26. | |
We can speak now to Stephen Booth, who's the director of policy | :51:27. | :51:29. | |
and research at thinktank, Open Europe, Dr Swati Dhingra, from | :51:30. | :51:32. | |
the London School of Economics - both of whom have carried out | :51:33. | :51:34. | |
Welcome, both of you. Is this as much in their interests as ours, | :51:35. | :51:44. | |
Stephen? Yes, I think so. The question is on what terms do we | :51:45. | :51:50. | |
reach a new agreement. I think the Government acknowledges that at | :51:51. | :51:53. | |
least in the short-term period we are going to want to keep things are | :51:54. | :51:58. | |
similar to the status quo as possible. That helps business, | :51:59. | :52:02. | |
business only has two are just once to a new regime at the end of the | :52:03. | :52:06. | |
transition period, and the EU would rather have one negotiation about a | :52:07. | :52:11. | |
new arrangement as opposed to two negotiations about what we do for | :52:12. | :52:17. | |
the next three years and what we do after that. But is it delaying the | :52:18. | :52:25. | |
inevitable, Swati? What it doesn't do is ask the real question, which | :52:26. | :52:31. | |
is after those few years what is the new arrangement going to look like. | :52:32. | :52:36. | |
There's a big concern that customs union or no customs union is going | :52:37. | :52:41. | |
to make no difference to things like services, telecoms, and tariffs | :52:42. | :52:49. | |
don't matter there. It is very little in today's's report about | :52:50. | :52:54. | |
that. What David Davis has said this morning about what would come after | :52:55. | :52:58. | |
a transition period is either a highly streamlined border with the | :52:59. | :53:02. | |
EU or a new partnership with no customs border at all, which sounds | :53:03. | :53:08. | |
like having your cake and eating it, doesn't it? I think the first option | :53:09. | :53:12. | |
sounds more achievable and practical. The second one is | :53:13. | :53:18. | |
unprecedented and untested, and I think it is complicated to | :53:19. | :53:20. | |
administer because businesses will have to work out whether their | :53:21. | :53:28. | |
growth are destined for the UK or EU market. So describe away a | :53:29. | :53:35. | |
streamlined border can work, because obviously for there to be easy | :53:36. | :53:39. | |
transactions between the EU and the UK, products have to comply with | :53:40. | :53:44. | |
regulations across different boundaries and that then takes you | :53:45. | :53:48. | |
into the territory of things being enforced by the ECJ so it's quite | :53:49. | :53:57. | |
difficult to unpick one part. There are examples of this around the | :53:58. | :54:04. | |
world. It's about reducing technology, the amount of paperwork | :54:05. | :54:07. | |
needed, moving away from physical tracks at the border to electronic | :54:08. | :54:12. | |
checks so things can be preapproved. 99% of goods that come to the UK | :54:13. | :54:18. | |
from outside the EU are already preapproved in seconds so a lot of | :54:19. | :54:21. | |
this is possible but it requires both sides to negotiate this. The UK | :54:22. | :54:26. | |
cannot do this unilaterally. At the moment we don't know what the EU | :54:27. | :54:30. | |
side of the table once from the border, what do they want to | :54:31. | :54:35. | |
enforce? How do you see it working, Swati? I think it will be | :54:36. | :54:42. | |
cumbersome. When we look at the Norway example, we know that Norway | :54:43. | :54:47. | |
still faces about 8% of its import value going into paperwork to be | :54:48. | :54:51. | |
able to comply with rules and regulations to enter the UK market | :54:52. | :54:54. | |
so it won't be very different from that. If anything Norway is in the | :54:55. | :54:59. | |
single market so it probably has better access than what we can | :55:00. | :55:03. | |
expect to have. Those who want the UK out of the customs union say the | :55:04. | :55:09. | |
downside is that we cannot have trade deals with the rest of the | :55:10. | :55:13. | |
world while we are in it. Is there enough of an upside to mitigate the | :55:14. | :55:18. | |
downside of leaving? That is the question that only really time will | :55:19. | :55:21. | |
tell but politically once you've taken the decision to leave the | :55:22. | :55:25. | |
European Union and have an independent trade policy, because we | :55:26. | :55:29. | |
will be out of the EU common trade policy, we will have the flexibility | :55:30. | :55:33. | |
to negotiate our own deals and whatever you think about the Brexit | :55:34. | :55:37. | |
decision, the logic of it is you have to boost the trade with the | :55:38. | :55:40. | |
rest of the world and increase and diversify away from the EU which | :55:41. | :55:44. | |
means the UK will have to have as many tools in its tool box in order | :55:45. | :55:48. | |
to negotiate with other partners and that means having more flexibility. | :55:49. | :55:53. | |
We won't have all of that for the first three years but the Government | :55:54. | :55:58. | |
needs to make sure we have it after 2022. How do you see the position? | :55:59. | :56:06. | |
It is unlikely we will be able to make up the losses from other | :56:07. | :56:11. | |
countries. China and India, the rules and regulations are very | :56:12. | :56:14. | |
different. Opening our markets to them will be very big in terms of | :56:15. | :56:19. | |
what happens to consumer safety, product safety. Dealing with the US, | :56:20. | :56:24. | |
the same kind of concerns come up as we saw in the chlorine chicken | :56:25. | :56:29. | |
debate. This is a good idea to have, but there are games we will get from | :56:30. | :56:33. | |
these new trade deals which will be small compared to what we lose from | :56:34. | :56:38. | |
the EU if we don't get a good trade deal there. To have the sort of | :56:39. | :56:44. | |
freedom of movement that there is within the European Union, we still | :56:45. | :56:49. | |
have to be bound by the health and safety regulations that we are | :56:50. | :56:54. | |
currently bound by, don't we? Largely, we would probably have to | :56:55. | :56:58. | |
comply with those. If you look at what Canada did with the European | :56:59. | :57:02. | |
Union, they went through a lot of regulations they were happy to | :57:03. | :57:06. | |
harmonise or mutually recognise, but then many others would have to be | :57:07. | :57:10. | |
designed for the European market. When we sell to the US we would have | :57:11. | :57:18. | |
a different set of regulations. So all of these things will still be | :57:19. | :57:23. | |
applicable to UK businesses. Thank you. I just want to bring you an | :57:24. | :57:29. | |
update on what is happening at Hogan Tube station. The press office for | :57:30. | :57:34. | |
Transport for London has said the fire at Holborn Tube station is | :57:35. | :57:43. | |
Julie to a fault on the train. They have ruled out terrorism as a cause. | :57:44. | :57:49. | |
It is worth noting that last week there was a small fire on an | :57:50. | :57:54. | |
underground train at Oxford Circus station that was on the Bakerloo | :57:55. | :57:59. | |
line train. That was caused by an electrical fault under the train. | :58:00. | :58:05. | |
The pictures at the time looks pretty dramatic of smoke in a train | :58:06. | :58:09. | |
carriage. Four people treated for smoke inhalation and we don't have | :58:10. | :58:13. | |
details of whether anyone has been affected by smoke inhalation in this | :58:14. | :58:17. | |
latest incident at Holborn but we will keep you up-to-date. The | :58:18. | :58:21. | |
important thing to note is it is not being treated as suspicious. | :58:22. | :58:27. | |
Denzil Lush says people should be far more aware of the risks | :58:28. | :58:33. | |
of a power of attorney, which is a legal document allowing | :58:34. | :58:36. | |
someone to make welfare or financial decisions on your behalf, | :58:37. | :58:38. | |
Right now let's catch up with the latest weather update. | :58:39. | :58:47. | |
It's going to be a lovely day if you like sunshine and showers. If we | :58:48. | :58:54. | |
take a look around the country, you will see some of the weather | :58:55. | :59:00. | |
watchers' pictures from earlier. This is Kent, Ramsgate. As we move | :59:01. | :59:04. | |
across the country, we can see showers. We have the rainbow in | :59:05. | :59:09. | |
Hertfordshire, and a more current picture, this one sent in from | :59:10. | :59:13. | |
Durham with lovely blue skies. We are looking at a day of sunshine and | :59:14. | :59:18. | |
showers, we will lose the rain from Kent this morning. We could see 26 | :59:19. | :59:29. | |
Celsius here through the day, but you can also see a lot of dry and | :59:30. | :59:32. | |
sunny weather as we sweep into south-west England. For Wales, again | :59:33. | :59:35. | |
some showers, they will be fewer and further between but more frequent | :59:36. | :59:39. | |
across Northern Ireland and possibly more heavy here as well, but | :59:40. | :59:42. | |
nonetheless still a lot of dry weather. A lot of dry weather across | :59:43. | :59:47. | |
Scotland but you will have more frequent showers, some will be heavy | :59:48. | :59:53. | |
and thundery. In north-east England, heading down the eastern side of the | :59:54. | :59:57. | |
Pennines you can see a mixture of sunshine and showers but some of | :59:58. | :00:00. | |
those showers could be heavy. Through the evening and overnight | :00:01. | :00:05. | |
the showers tend to fade and we are looking at clearing skies, a cooler | :00:06. | :00:08. | |
night than the one just gone but by the end of the night we will have | :00:09. | :00:11. | |
stronger winds and rain arriving into the west of Northern Ireland. | :00:12. | :00:17. | |
That's courtesy of this area of low pressure with its weather front. The | :00:18. | :00:20. | |
squeeze on the isobars is telling you it will be windy. Gale is | :00:21. | :00:25. | |
possible through the Irish Sea and with exposure in the west. The rain | :00:26. | :00:30. | |
is coming in smartly across Northern Ireland and also Scotland, but not | :00:31. | :00:34. | |
as quickly across north-west England, Wales and into south-west | :00:35. | :00:38. | |
England. Where we have this combination with lower temperatures, | :00:39. | :00:42. | |
it will feel cooler, the coolness exacerbated by the rain and wind, | :00:43. | :00:46. | |
but as we drift east, increasing amounts of cloud ahead of this | :00:47. | :00:52. | |
weather front. The further east you travel, the more likely you are to | :00:53. | :00:56. | |
see some sunshine with temperatures up to 23. As we move into Thursday, | :00:57. | :01:01. | |
that rain crosses us overnight. We have the remnants during Thursday, | :01:02. | :01:08. | |
then it's replaced once again by sunshine and showers. Showers fairly | :01:09. | :01:11. | |
hit and miss, not everyone will catch one. If you are in the | :01:12. | :01:16. | |
sunshine, high temperatures up to 24 in London, will feel quite pleasant, | :01:17. | :01:20. | |
as in Newcastle with high temperatures of 21. | :01:21. | :01:36. | |
as in Newcastle with high temperatures of 21. Member jurors | :01:37. | :01:44. | |
temperatures down a touch, it will feel that much cooler. As for the | :01:45. | :01:49. | |
weekend, mixed fortunes, as you come further south, looking at sunshine | :01:50. | :01:52. | |
and showers, a bit more rain showers in the north of the country, if you | :01:53. | :01:57. | |
are wondering about Sunday, the forecast changing but at the moment | :01:58. | :02:00. | |
looks like for Northern Ireland, Scotland, northern England and North | :02:01. | :02:04. | |
Wales, we will see some rain but try as we push further south! | :02:05. | :02:10. | |
Hello, it's Tuesday, it's ten o'clock, I'm Joanna Gosling | :02:11. | :02:12. | |
We hear more from the man who was Chloe Ayling's agent | :02:13. | :02:17. | |
when the model was drugged and kidnapped in Milan. | :02:18. | :02:19. | |
Phil Green says she is coping well after her traumatic ordeal. | :02:20. | :02:25. | |
She clearly had gone through a tremendous amount of suffering and | :02:26. | :02:31. | |
had an horrific ordeal and I know that if that had happened to 95% of | :02:32. | :02:36. | |
the other models in my agency they would have crumbled. | :02:37. | :02:38. | |
You can hear the second part of our interview later this hour. | :02:39. | :02:43. | |
Also we speak to a retired judge who says it's too risky just giving one | :02:44. | :02:50. | |
person power of attorney which allows them to make welfare or | :02:51. | :02:52. | |
financial decisions on your behalf. Taylor Swift has won her | :02:53. | :02:54. | |
case against the former We hear from an American journalist | :02:55. | :02:56. | |
who sat through the court case and says this is a win | :02:57. | :03:00. | |
for all women. She stood up for herself, not just | :03:01. | :03:11. | |
for herself and women in general and that is what she spoke to, she | :03:12. | :03:15. | |
maintained that stands and you could tell she was up there not just | :03:16. | :03:18. | |
speaking for herself but to show women out there it's OK to stand up | :03:19. | :03:25. | |
for what you believe in. We've also hear from a lawyer in this country | :03:26. | :03:29. | |
who hopes it will empower more women in this country to speak out. | :03:30. | :03:37. | |
Here's Rachel in the BBC Newsroom with a summary of todays news. | :03:38. | :03:44. | |
The government is to outline plans to negotiate a temporary customs | :03:45. | :03:49. | |
relationship with the EU after Brexit. The mistress want to ensure | :03:50. | :03:54. | |
an arrangement similar to the current customs union will remain in | :03:55. | :03:57. | |
place until a final trade settlement takes effect. Be you commission says | :03:58. | :04:01. | |
the move is a positive step towards a starting phase one of the | :04:02. | :04:05. | |
negotiations. And they will study the position paper carefully. The | :04:06. | :04:10. | |
Brexit secretary David Davis says it means businesses will avoid | :04:11. | :04:11. | |
unnecessary disruption. We sell about 230 billion euros of | :04:12. | :04:19. | |
goods and services to the European Union each year, they sell 290 | :04:20. | :04:28. | |
billion to us. I was in Bavaria 200 -- I was in Bavaria a couple of | :04:29. | :04:33. | |
weeks ago, they sell Alex on goods and they have an incredibly strong | :04:34. | :04:36. | |
interest in something like this, there is an interest in both sides | :04:37. | :04:40. | |
on not doing it the hard, both to do with customs arrangements and to do | :04:41. | :04:43. | |
with having a free trade area in the first place. | :04:44. | :04:44. | |
Mudslides and floods in Sierra Leone are now known to have killed more | :04:45. | :04:47. | |
than 300 people on the outskirts of the capital, Freetown. | :04:48. | :04:49. | |
Thousands more have been forced to flee from their homes. | :04:50. | :04:52. | |
Government officials have warned the number of casualties | :04:53. | :04:54. | |
is expected to rise, with hundreds of bodies thought to | :04:55. | :04:56. | |
The mayor of Freetown says at least 270 bodies have | :04:57. | :05:00. | |
Millions of rail users will see a 3.6% increase in many rail | :05:01. | :05:10. | |
Train operators are allowed to raise regulated fares - | :05:11. | :05:19. | |
which account for nearly half of all tickets - by as much | :05:20. | :05:22. | |
as the Retail Prices Index figure for July, which rose by 3.6%. | :05:23. | :05:25. | |
The headline Consumer Price Index inflation was 2.6% in | :05:26. | :05:27. | |
A train has partially derailed at Waterloo station in London, | :05:28. | :05:35. | |
The South West Trains service struck a freight train at low | :05:36. | :05:40. | |
speed between Waterloo and Vauxhall stations. | :05:41. | :05:42. | |
Three people were checked for injuries, but did not | :05:43. | :05:44. | |
Thirteen platforms are out of use, with disruption excepted to last | :05:45. | :05:48. | |
In a separate incident a train has hit the buffers | :05:49. | :05:58. | |
A spokesperson from Great Northern said the train came into contact | :05:59. | :06:02. | |
with the buffers at low speed at twenty past six this morning. | :06:03. | :06:05. | |
The Rail Accident Investigation Branch has been informed. | :06:06. | :06:18. | |
London's Holborn Underground station has been closed as emergency | :06:19. | :06:23. | |
services respond to a fire alert and reports of smoke. Ten firefighters | :06:24. | :06:28. | |
and two engines presented to the station, an eyewitness on a train at | :06:29. | :06:32. | |
the station said smoke-filled one of the characters. Transport for London | :06:33. | :06:36. | |
said the problem was caused by a defective train. -- smoke-filled one | :06:37. | :06:42. | |
of the carriages. A pensioner who was stabbed | :06:43. | :06:43. | |
while trying to save the life of the Labour MP, | :06:44. | :06:46. | |
Jo Cox, has died. Bernard Kenny, who was 79, | :06:47. | :06:48. | |
was awarded the George Medal for his bravery - | :06:49. | :06:50. | |
after he intervened when a right-wing extremist attacked | :06:51. | :06:52. | |
the MP in the run-up to last Mr Kenny was seriously | :06:53. | :06:55. | |
injured in the attack, but the cause of his death is not | :06:56. | :06:58. | |
believed to be related A girl has died after a man drove | :06:59. | :07:01. | |
a car into a pizza restaurant Twelve other people | :07:02. | :07:05. | |
were injured in the attack, Police said they're treating | :07:06. | :07:08. | |
the incident as deliberate, The driver of the car, a 32-year-old | :07:09. | :07:11. | |
man, has been arrested. Iran says it could abandon | :07:12. | :07:16. | |
its nuclear deal with world powers "within hours", | :07:17. | :07:19. | |
if the United States continues President Hassan Rouhani told | :07:20. | :07:21. | |
the country's parliament. The deal which was struck in 2015 | :07:22. | :07:24. | |
saw the lifting of most international sanctions in return | :07:25. | :07:27. | |
for curbs on its nuclear programme. The pop star Taylor Swift has won | :07:28. | :07:41. | |
a sexual assault case against ex-radio DJ David Mueller, | :07:42. | :07:44. | |
who she said had groped His claim for damages, | :07:45. | :07:46. | |
on the grounds that his reputation had been destroyed by false | :07:47. | :07:53. | |
allegations, was thrown out. He's been ordered to pay a token | :07:54. | :07:56. | |
one-dollar in damages. Taylor Swift said she took | :07:57. | :07:59. | |
the action against him to give other victims of sexual assault | :08:00. | :08:03. | |
the confidence to The fat outfit theory that | :08:04. | :08:18. | |
overweight people can still be healthy is nothing but is according | :08:19. | :08:24. | |
to researchers from two top UK universities. Scientists from | :08:25. | :08:28. | |
Cambridge and Imperial College London found being obese or | :08:29. | :08:31. | |
overweight increases your risk of coronary heart disease by 28% even | :08:32. | :08:34. | |
if you are otherwise healthy and act. | :08:35. | :08:40. | |
That's a summary of the latest BBC News - more at 10.30. | :08:41. | :08:52. | |
Still to come, we will hear from Phil Green, the agent of the model | :08:53. | :09:00. | |
Chloe Aileen who was kidnapped and taken to Italy. | :09:01. | :09:05. | |
Liverpool are hoping to rip reach the group stages of the Champions | :09:06. | :09:15. | |
League for the first time in three years. They are in Germany this | :09:16. | :09:19. | |
evening and Jurgen Klopp has made it clear the match tonight is the only | :09:20. | :09:23. | |
thing on his mind and not the future of the leak could you. They've | :09:24. | :09:28. | |
bazillion is a target for Barcelona but Liverpool have rejected two bids | :09:29. | :09:34. | |
for him before Coutinho submitted a transfer request which was | :09:35. | :09:37. | |
dismissed. He didn't play at the weekend because of a back injury and | :09:38. | :09:40. | |
the manager says he knows speculation is rife but his sole | :09:41. | :09:45. | |
focus is on the game ahead. I really understand everybody is interested | :09:46. | :09:50. | |
in this but I can't say I am really thinking about it. It's just, I am | :09:51. | :09:57. | |
here, but I am not in the car, on the way to the Conference, I did not | :09:58. | :10:00. | |
think what could I say if they ask or whatever because I have to think | :10:01. | :10:05. | |
about other things. It's understood Diego Costa has been ordered to | :10:06. | :10:08. | |
return to the Premier League champions after being fined for | :10:09. | :10:11. | |
failing to report for pre-season training. He was told by the | :10:12. | :10:16. | |
miniature fire text in June that he wasn't part of his plans this | :10:17. | :10:18. | |
season, the striker currently in Brazil, threatening to sit out the | :10:19. | :10:22. | |
remaining two years of his contract if he is not allowed to leave. The | :10:23. | :10:27. | |
Spanish international is considering legal action and has his heart set | :10:28. | :10:31. | |
on returning to Atletico Madrid although Chelsea are demanding his | :10:32. | :10:34. | |
return before any decision on his future is made. Premier League clubs | :10:35. | :10:39. | |
are to take a vote on the idea of closing the transfer window before | :10:40. | :10:41. | |
the start of the season. The window runs until August 31, it's been a | :10:42. | :10:47. | |
problem this season with the future of several high-profile players on | :10:48. | :10:50. | |
results. Under the proposals are new league sides would not be able to | :10:51. | :10:54. | |
add to their squads once the season kicks off but it wouldn't apply to | :10:55. | :10:57. | |
clubs from Europe signing players from England. If it is past it would | :10:58. | :11:02. | |
come into effect next season. Kyle Edmund continues to struggle in the | :11:03. | :11:06. | |
build-up to the US Open, beaten in the first round of the Cincinnati | :11:07. | :11:11. | |
Masters by a Portuguese opponent in three sets. He was knocked out of | :11:12. | :11:14. | |
the first-round of the Montreal Masters last week. The final Grand | :11:15. | :11:17. | |
Slam of the year begins at the end the month. Andy Murray will be | :11:18. | :11:23. | |
replaced as the World War I by Rafael Nadal at the end of the | :11:24. | :11:27. | |
tournament this week. Andy Murray is not playing because of an ongoing | :11:28. | :11:30. | |
problem, the Spaniard will top the world rankings for the first time in | :11:31. | :11:34. | |
three years. England cricketers stepped into the unknown this week | :11:35. | :11:37. | |
when they play their first day night Test match, the first played in this | :11:38. | :11:43. | |
country. The opening series against the West Indies. The 2pm on | :11:44. | :11:47. | |
Thursday, lunch at 4pm, plate finishing at 9pm. The game will be | :11:48. | :11:51. | |
played with a pink box showing up at under the lights, a new experience | :11:52. | :11:58. | |
for bowler Stuart broad. The pink ball county round, the guys said the | :11:59. | :12:02. | |
ball went quite soft quite quickly, we are just going to have to be so | :12:03. | :12:07. | |
adaptable on the day. We are going in with a completely clear mind, | :12:08. | :12:11. | |
completely learning on the job, almost. The team that will, more | :12:12. | :12:16. | |
successful this week is the team that reacts quicker. And that is all | :12:17. | :12:23. | |
your support for now. I will be back with more later. Thank you so much. | :12:24. | :12:26. | |
Power of attorney is a legal document that allows someone else | :12:27. | :12:29. | |
to look after your property and financial affairs. | :12:30. | :12:30. | |
It's increasingly common - used especially by older | :12:31. | :12:32. | |
people who can no longer manage their everyday lives. | :12:33. | :12:34. | |
Nearly 650,000 applications were made last year in England | :12:35. | :12:37. | |
and Wales to register powers of attorney ... | :12:38. | :12:38. | |
But the judge who wrote the legal guidebook to powers of attorney, | :12:39. | :12:43. | |
who was the head of the court of protection for 20 years, | :12:44. | :12:47. | |
has told the BBC he would never sign one himself, they have few | :12:48. | :12:50. | |
safeguards, and the ministry of justice is "disingenuous" | :12:51. | :12:52. | |
Let's speak now to Today Programme correspondent Sanchia Berg who's | :12:53. | :13:01. | |
Tell us more about this, it is extraordinary when the judge Europe | :13:02. | :13:20. | |
and says he wouldn't have won. He says there are a few safeguards, | :13:21. | :13:27. | |
although there is the office of the public partying, part of the | :13:28. | :13:29. | |
Ministry of Justice which investigates complaints they will | :13:30. | :13:32. | |
only investigate once someone alerts on to something. Dental luxury for | :13:33. | :13:39. | |
20 years presided over more than 6000 of these ensuring our lasting | :13:40. | :13:43. | |
power of attorney cases, he has seen many examples where problems arose | :13:44. | :13:48. | |
and they just weren't caught in time and you will hear from a viewer | :13:49. | :13:53. | |
about a problem that went on for years, her father's estate | :13:54. | :13:58. | |
effectively looted and nothing they could do because the complaint were | :13:59. | :14:01. | |
not investigated. Now complaints are more likely to be investigated but | :14:02. | :14:05. | |
nonetheless, the judge believes people should be far more aware of | :14:06. | :14:07. | |
the risks. OK, thank you. Joining us now, Lesley Willetts | :14:08. | :14:13. | |
and her husband Brian Felton have experienced the problems | :14:14. | :14:16. | |
of the Power of Attorney themselves. Lesley's father, a Dunkirk veteran | :14:17. | :14:18. | |
with dementia was left destitute after he gave his neighbours | :14:19. | :14:20. | |
power of attorney. Denzil Lush is a senior judge | :14:21. | :14:22. | |
who headed the Court of Protection for 20 years and adjudicated 6,000 | :14:23. | :14:25. | |
power of attorney cases. He says the power of | :14:26. | :14:28. | |
attorney has few safeguards Thank you both for joining us. | :14:29. | :14:44. | |
Leslie, it sounds like you had a turbo situation, talk us through | :14:45. | :14:49. | |
what happened to your father and power of attorney was given to a | :14:50. | :14:54. | |
neighbour. -- a terrible situation. Basically when the neighbour to | :14:55. | :14:58. | |
guard a power of attorney in 2003 and he had a will made out at the | :14:59. | :15:02. | |
same time it was effectively, we were just literally hard from any | :15:03. | :15:09. | |
protest, any insight into the financial affairs of my father, even | :15:10. | :15:13. | |
his day-to-day care seemed to be lost to us in a sense. And the | :15:14. | :15:18. | |
attorney was able to try and isolate him from our family and also | :15:19. | :15:24. | |
effectively take his money and concealed the fact he had taken the | :15:25. | :15:28. | |
money. He had complete power and there was no further week ago, no | :15:29. | :15:32. | |
one we could ask what do we do about this and was only when he registered | :15:33. | :15:38. | |
the power of attorney in 2004, this was 18 months later, when in effect | :15:39. | :15:44. | |
he had used all my father's savings and in effect he had to sell my | :15:45. | :15:51. | |
father's house, so he had to register the power of attorney for | :15:52. | :15:55. | |
that, our family objected but the registration went through | :15:56. | :15:58. | |
nonetheless but the cause was Yorkshire County Council came on | :15:59. | :16:02. | |
board at the time, they'd had letters of concern by other | :16:03. | :16:08. | |
neighbours that we decided to go for an appeal hearing in 2005. Sorry to | :16:09. | :16:14. | |
interrupt, it's absolutely extraordinary to hear you describe | :16:15. | :16:19. | |
what happened and to hear you say your father's house was being sold | :16:20. | :16:24. | |
under him and up until that point none of you knew what was going on | :16:25. | :16:27. | |
and you were powerless to do anything? | :16:28. | :16:35. | |
And it wasn't until the appeal hearing that we suspected there was | :16:36. | :16:41. | |
financial abuse. We had to prove the unsuitability of the attorney which | :16:42. | :16:49. | |
is incredibly difficult to do. We didn't have any evidence, all we | :16:50. | :16:53. | |
could do was protect ourselves and question why someone can get the | :16:54. | :16:58. | |
power of attorney so easily. Can I just say, at the appeal hearing the | :16:59. | :17:03. | |
attorney was required to submit annual accounts which we were really | :17:04. | :17:11. | |
relieved about, so at least we knew there was some accountability for | :17:12. | :17:16. | |
his finances going on. When you say it was hard to question, well you | :17:17. | :17:20. | |
question why it is that someone can get power of attorney so easily. | :17:21. | :17:27. | |
This was a neighbour. How did it happen? It was literally groom, | :17:28. | :17:39. | |
isolate, abuse. I was groomed, my father was groomed, I think social | :17:40. | :17:44. | |
services were groomed. Once that happened, he was supposed to come | :17:45. | :17:51. | |
down to us in 2003 but he was registered, who was in a | :17:52. | :17:54. | |
psychogeriatric ward at the time. We had arranged to have him discharged | :17:55. | :17:58. | |
to our care but for some reason social services allowed him to be | :17:59. | :18:04. | |
discharged to the neighbour's care, registered them as his carer and | :18:05. | :18:08. | |
within days were taken to a solicitor, had a power of attorney | :18:09. | :18:13. | |
made out and will to his benefit. So this was someone you had all trusted | :18:14. | :18:23. | |
absolutely? Yes, well I so. Will bring in Denzel. You adjudicated | :18:24. | :18:33. | |
over 6000 cases in that period where there have been issues and you now | :18:34. | :18:37. | |
say you would not use one yourself. Tell us more about your concerns. | :18:38. | :18:45. | |
Yes, I would prefer not to use one myself because I would rather go for | :18:46. | :18:52. | |
the default position, which is where the court appoints somebody to look | :18:53. | :18:56. | |
after a deputy to look after your property, and you are required to | :18:57. | :19:02. | |
account annually. You have to give a security bond which is a sort of | :19:03. | :19:07. | |
insurance policy that covers only default, and usually get a visit and | :19:08. | :19:12. | |
support from the office of the Public Guardian. Servers that | :19:13. | :19:15. | |
effectively how it used to work and how you would prefer for it to | :19:16. | :19:20. | |
continue working in your case? What's happened in Frank Willet's | :19:21. | :19:29. | |
case would not happen to quite the same extent now. This was an | :19:30. | :19:33. | |
enduring power of attorney, they have since been replaced in effect | :19:34. | :19:38. | |
by things called lasting powers of attorney. The office of the public | :19:39. | :19:44. | |
Guardian tends to initiate applications to the Court of | :19:45. | :19:51. | |
Protection rather than relatives to where they are concerned that has | :19:52. | :20:01. | |
been some misappropriation. In your experience of looking at these, have | :20:02. | :20:06. | |
you seen many instances of where it has worked really well? Because | :20:07. | :20:11. | |
obviously there are people who are vulnerable, they cannot manage their | :20:12. | :20:15. | |
affairs, family and loved ones need to work out a way of doing it in the | :20:16. | :20:22. | |
best way they can. Of course. I sort your liver pathology, if you are | :20:23. | :20:27. | |
with me. I saw the cases where they all went pear shaped which is | :20:28. | :20:31. | |
possibly why I wouldn't make one myself. I'm sure there are many | :20:32. | :20:37. | |
cases, the majority of cases where these do work satisfactorily. Is | :20:38. | :20:41. | |
there a way the system could be made better? Because you are saying you | :20:42. | :20:45. | |
would opt out of this particular way of handling affairs. Is it time for | :20:46. | :20:52. | |
everybody to actually look to another direction? Or can this | :20:53. | :20:58. | |
system be improved? Because as it stands it has to be a case of where | :20:59. | :21:02. | |
not only something has gone wrong but it has been discovered and you | :21:03. | :21:06. | |
can prove what's happened and that takes a lot of time, expense and | :21:07. | :21:12. | |
heartbreak. I think things can be improved. I think the office of the | :21:13. | :21:19. | |
Public Guardian is looking into the possibility of possibly a security | :21:20. | :21:22. | |
bond to cover attorney ships where there is a default position. Also, | :21:23. | :21:32. | |
in the Republic of Ireland they have a state-of-the-art piece of | :21:33. | :21:35. | |
legislation which requires attorneys to produce accounts to their | :21:36. | :21:38. | |
equivalent of the Public Guardian each year. When you hear Leslie | :21:39. | :21:45. | |
describing what happened, that the neighbour could get power of | :21:46. | :21:49. | |
attorney so easily, what do you think? It is surely not beyond the | :21:50. | :21:54. | |
realms of possibility is to stop that happening? Just make it harder? | :21:55. | :22:07. | |
This is one of the big concerns, that the Public Guardian is keen to | :22:08. | :22:14. | |
get as many possible lasting power of attorney applications done online | :22:15. | :22:18. | |
and digitally and there are concerns that what existing safeguards there | :22:19. | :22:23. | |
are are being dampened down all the time. | :22:24. | :22:33. | |
So it could easily be the case that anyone watching this programme with | :22:34. | :22:39. | |
a vulnerable relative could give power of attorney to somebody who | :22:40. | :22:45. | |
may not do the right thing by them or their family, there's nothing to | :22:46. | :22:51. | |
stop that happening? Yes, that is possible. One of the interesting | :22:52. | :22:58. | |
things as well is Leslie's Father's case was a little unusual insofar as | :22:59. | :23:03. | |
in my experience it is family members that are usually the | :23:04. | :23:09. | |
abusers. I remember going to a conference in Melbourne, Australia. | :23:10. | :23:16. | |
And they came up with... The university did some research saying | :23:17. | :23:20. | |
you are twice as likely to be ripped off by your son as your daughter and | :23:21. | :23:24. | |
I thought that was fascinating, and I came back and looked at my own | :23:25. | :23:28. | |
statistics which run into many hundreds and more than that. And I | :23:29. | :23:36. | |
worked out that 68% of the abusers of lasting Powers of attorney are | :23:37. | :23:41. | |
the child, the donor, the person who created the power, of those 36% are | :23:42. | :23:50. | |
sons, 22% are daughters, and the Remainer are sons and daughters | :23:51. | :23:56. | |
together. Leslie, a final for from you because people watching will be | :23:57. | :24:00. | |
horrified to find out what happened to you and if they have vulnerable | :24:01. | :24:05. | |
relatives they are concerned about, they could be worried about what | :24:06. | :24:08. | |
might potentially happen to them. After what you have been through, | :24:09. | :24:14. | |
what advice would you give? To be honest, I don't know. There's no | :24:15. | :24:19. | |
where people can go to get independent advice. Once you get | :24:20. | :24:22. | |
entangled with the Court of Protection, it is very hard to | :24:23. | :24:28. | |
manoeuvre your way around it and it can become extremely expensive. Can | :24:29. | :24:37. | |
I mention one thing that judge Lush is bringing up, about juicing | :24:38. | :24:42. | |
accounts. My father 's attorney was ordered to produce accounts on an | :24:43. | :24:51. | |
annual basis and he duly did in 2005 and 2006, but when I became court | :24:52. | :24:56. | |
deputy in 2008 when the attorney ship was finally revoked, it was | :24:57. | :25:00. | |
obvious within days that the Court accounts review team had ignored | :25:01. | :25:05. | |
gross breaches of their own rules and regulations. I mean my father's | :25:06. | :25:16. | |
proceeds from his house sales... Lots of complex things were | :25:17. | :25:19. | |
happening, how much was lost in the end and how much has it cost you? | :25:20. | :25:25. | |
Everything was lost. We have actually High Court orders, one | :25:26. | :25:30. | |
overturned the will and the other was a High Court order that was | :25:31. | :25:36. | |
380,000, now stands at more because there's an 8% interest rate added to | :25:37. | :25:42. | |
it, but do we get anything back? So far not and I'm not terribly | :25:43. | :25:47. | |
helpful. The Court of Protection we are still fighting because they | :25:48. | :25:51. | |
refuse to accept accountability. Thank you, Leslie, very much for | :25:52. | :25:58. | |
joining us and is talking about your family's situation. | :25:59. | :26:04. | |
In a statement a Ministry of Justice spokesperson said: | :26:05. | :26:06. | |
"Safeguarding vulnerable people is our priority. | :26:07. | :26:08. | |
We take swift action if any abuse is reported and have a zero | :26:09. | :26:11. | |
tolerance approach to any attorney or deputy who breaks the law. | :26:12. | :26:13. | |
If there is evidence that someone has abused their position, | :26:14. | :26:16. | |
we can refer cases to the Court of Protection to urgently revoke | :26:17. | :26:19. | |
a lasting power of attorney or deputyship order." | :26:20. | :26:26. | |
Let us know if you have had any experience of this, good or bad. | :26:27. | :26:31. | |
We hear the second part of our exclusive interview | :26:32. | :26:34. | |
Phil Green the agent of Chloe Ayling the model kidnapped | :26:35. | :26:37. | |
He talks about how she reacted to the ordeal. | :26:38. | :26:55. | |
Taylor Swift has won a sexual assault case | :26:56. | :26:58. | |
against a former radio DJ, who she said had groped her | :26:59. | :27:01. | |
David Mueller from Colorado had originally tried to sue the American | :27:02. | :27:05. | |
singer-songwriter saying her claims had cost him his | :27:06. | :27:07. | |
David Mueller from Colorado had originally tried to sue the American | :27:08. | :27:10. | |
singer-songwriter saying her claims had cost him his | :27:11. | :27:12. | |
Taylor was awarded a symbolic one dollar in damages, | :27:13. | :27:15. | |
because she wanted to highlight the issue women are | :27:16. | :27:17. | |
interactive show 'Daily Blast Live' was in court. | :27:18. | :27:26. | |
When the verdict came, she was very happy. What had she been like | :27:27. | :27:37. | |
throughout the hearings? She testified last Thursday and she was | :27:38. | :27:41. | |
very fierce, that's the way I would describe her. She was very | :27:42. | :27:45. | |
confident, unwavering in her stance, and I know the attorney of David | :27:46. | :27:52. | |
Mueller was trying to get her to appear weak. It is her job to make | :27:53. | :27:57. | |
her get flustered or say things differently to try to prove her case | :27:58. | :28:01. | |
but she maintained her stance. I don't know what I can say on this | :28:02. | :28:07. | |
programme, but she did not use the word rear end and she made sure to | :28:08. | :28:11. | |
use profanity each time because she wanted it to be vulgar. She didn't | :28:12. | :28:16. | |
want it to be polite. She maintained that what happened to her was not | :28:17. | :28:21. | |
polite and she needed to stand up for herself, not just for herself | :28:22. | :28:25. | |
but for women in general and that's what she spoke to and she maintained | :28:26. | :28:29. | |
that stance. You could tell she was up there not just speaking for | :28:30. | :28:34. | |
herself but to show women out there that it is OK to stand up for what | :28:35. | :28:39. | |
you believe in and not have anyone tried to waver and say you were | :28:40. | :28:44. | |
smiling in this photo in question. Because that did come up. Why are | :28:45. | :28:50. | |
you smiling, acting a certain way? She doesn't have to defend herself | :28:51. | :28:55. | |
and she wasn't going to let anyone tear her down. Did she get emotional | :28:56. | :29:02. | |
at all? On the stands she did not, she did get emotional when she heard | :29:03. | :29:11. | |
her mother speak or when David Mueller's attorney was speaking | :29:12. | :29:14. | |
saying this photo doesn't show her looking like she has just been | :29:15. | :29:19. | |
groped. Even though she is fierce and confident on the stand, it was | :29:20. | :29:21. | |
still something that was very emotional to her. She did not report | :29:22. | :29:27. | |
this to police when it happened, it ended up in court with her suing him | :29:28. | :29:35. | |
for a symbolic $1 because he was suing her. Through the process | :29:36. | :29:40. | |
though, in the eyes of her fans and other members of the public, has she | :29:41. | :29:46. | |
effectively become a campaigner on this issue? She really has. I have | :29:47. | :29:53. | |
been live tweeting this quite a bit and you usually hear from both sides | :29:54. | :29:59. | |
of someone defending Mueller, someone defending Swift, but you | :30:00. | :30:05. | |
have people saying I believe in her cause even though I am not a fan, so | :30:06. | :30:10. | |
it transcended her as a staff and came down to the issue that a woman | :30:11. | :30:14. | |
has a right to go after someone who sexually assaulted her, and she was | :30:15. | :30:19. | |
assaulted. And she is an influential woman. What reaction has there been? | :30:20. | :30:28. | |
After the jury went out and there was people leaving, and ran into one | :30:29. | :30:33. | |
of her young fans who was there with her mother and had been going to | :30:34. | :30:38. | |
court every day. She was so excited, she felt justice had been served. I | :30:39. | :30:42. | |
noticed the best quality about this little interaction was that this | :30:43. | :30:46. | |
little girl felt empowered. She wasn't afraid of Mueller and she was | :30:47. | :30:55. | |
so happy Swift stood up to that man. You could tell she was taking that | :30:56. | :31:01. | |
in and if, God forbid she is ever in that situation, she felt ready and | :31:02. | :31:05. | |
inspired by the actions of one woman that happened to be Taylor Swift. | :31:06. | :31:12. | |
She has now said she will be donating to organisations in the | :31:13. | :31:19. | |
future to help sexual assault and is defend themselves because she | :31:20. | :31:26. | |
ignored she has -- she acknowledged she has the resources to do that. | :31:27. | :31:32. | |
What else has she said? She hasn't been publicly speaking either in the | :31:33. | :31:35. | |
media or on social media but I believe she intends to go into what | :31:36. | :31:42. | |
organisations she intends to donate to in time, I think she will slowly | :31:43. | :31:47. | |
roll this out at ink she needs to decompress, it was a highly | :31:48. | :31:50. | |
emotional case for her and I know it means a lot to her and I know she | :31:51. | :31:55. | |
wants to formulate a plan, she comes across to me as someone who wants a | :31:56. | :31:59. | |
detailed plan of action and we will know it soon, I don't know whether | :32:00. | :32:02. | |
it's within the next week but it will happen. I mentioned it she did | :32:03. | :32:06. | |
not go to police when this happened four years ago, it was what's been | :32:07. | :32:12. | |
talked about as a low-level sexual assault, someone dropping her under | :32:13. | :32:18. | |
her skirt, what has she said about the impact on her that? The only | :32:19. | :32:24. | |
time she has ever mentioned it, but I have heard, is in Court, when her | :32:25. | :32:33. | |
mother said when she found out, she felt like vomiting and crying at the | :32:34. | :32:37. | |
same time, Taylor Swift has not been the same, the recent she doesn't go | :32:38. | :32:40. | |
into crowds any more and when you see her and | :32:41. | :32:47. | |
you see her at need and greed is, she is there close to her fans. When | :32:48. | :32:52. | |
I was in Court, she looked up and acknowledged me and I am sure she | :32:53. | :32:57. | |
did that to all the people, even if they were media or suppose that | :32:58. | :33:00. | |
fans. They are curious to watch the case. She seemed like a very warm | :33:01. | :33:07. | |
person and to show that she did not want to go out into the crowds, so | :33:08. | :33:12. | |
she would impact one person can have, it's the only time she said | :33:13. | :33:15. | |
she has ever been groped and it still sticks with her to this day. | :33:16. | :33:24. | |
Why didn't she go to the police? The way she described it, it was very | :33:25. | :33:30. | |
quick and there is a meet and greet, fans shuffling in and out within a | :33:31. | :33:33. | |
second, if she would have stopped for one moment to say what happened, | :33:34. | :33:40. | |
that would have destroyed the experience for all those fans, for | :33:41. | :33:43. | |
her, she went and finished what she had to do, a dozen people left and | :33:44. | :33:49. | |
as soon as the line finished she told everyone that was in the room, | :33:50. | :33:56. | |
that crack -- guy totally grabbed my, she used the profanity and they | :33:57. | :34:01. | |
said I know. The photographer looked and saw the photo and her management | :34:02. | :34:05. | |
went and they considered calling the police but they considered the best | :34:06. | :34:09. | |
course of action was to just alert his bosses at the radio station. | :34:10. | :34:15. | |
Thank you. In the last 15 minutes, | :34:16. | :34:26. | |
the government has announced some of the key details about the public | :34:27. | :34:29. | |
inquiry into Grenfell Tower fire. It will look at not just the fire | :34:30. | :34:31. | |
itself but the actions of the local How wide-ranging will it be? We have | :34:32. | :34:45. | |
something from the chairman of the inquiry and the Prime Minister, | :34:46. | :34:48. | |
setting out the terms of reference, we happen waiting for these, the | :34:49. | :34:52. | |
areas they will look into. It includes six, reading through, the | :34:53. | :34:55. | |
cause and spread of the fire, we knew that, we expected that, the | :34:56. | :35:00. | |
design construction and refurbishment of Grenfell Tower, the | :35:01. | :35:03. | |
scope and adequacy of the relevant regulations relating to high-rise | :35:04. | :35:08. | |
buildings across the country, whether relevant legislation and | :35:09. | :35:10. | |
guidance was complied with in the case of Grenfell Tower that will be | :35:11. | :35:14. | |
key. And also, we were not quite sure about this, to Max -- two extra | :35:15. | :35:21. | |
things they have added, the response of the London Fire Brigade and local | :35:22. | :35:29. | |
government and amongst others, and the last elements could be key. Will | :35:30. | :35:33. | |
it satisfy residents who are concerned about what the inquiry | :35:34. | :35:37. | |
will cover? These letters have only been released, campaigners keen this | :35:38. | :35:41. | |
inquiry is as broad as possible, not just looking at the immediate | :35:42. | :35:46. | |
causes, we know if rich freezer caught fire, the cladding, but looks | :35:47. | :35:50. | |
at the wider causes and on the face of it, the statement goes some way | :35:51. | :35:55. | |
towards addressing that. -- a fridge freezer caught fire. The Prime | :35:56. | :35:59. | |
Minister says she is adamant that the wider causes around this will be | :36:00. | :36:04. | |
addressed, she will meet social housing tenants to see what further | :36:05. | :36:10. | |
proposals can be made in due course. -- the Housing Minister will meet | :36:11. | :36:14. | |
local residents. On a first reading this seems to address some of the | :36:15. | :36:18. | |
questions about the fire, not just the immediate cause but the actions | :36:19. | :36:20. | |
crucially of the Council before the blaze. Thank you. | :36:21. | :36:32. | |
Now we return to the extraordinary story of model Chloe Ayling, | :36:33. | :36:35. | |
who jetted off to Milan for what she thought | :36:36. | :36:37. | |
was a photoshoot, but instead was kidnapped and held for six days | :36:38. | :36:40. | |
by Lukasz Herba, a Polish national from Birmingham. | :36:41. | :36:42. | |
She says he told her she was going to be sold into sex slavery then | :36:43. | :36:45. | |
issued a ransom note to a number of people in the UK for her release. | :36:46. | :36:49. | |
One of those was Phil Green, her agent at the time - | :36:50. | :36:52. | |
who had initially booked her on the job with Lukasz - | :36:53. | :36:54. | |
who was posing as a photographer named Andre. | :36:55. | :36:56. | |
In his only BBC interview, Phil Green - that former agent - | :36:57. | :36:59. | |
He praises Chloe's bravery throughout this ordeal | :37:00. | :37:02. | |
and claims she has been offered counselling but has refused | :37:03. | :37:04. | |
despite her now being afraid to go anywhere alone. | :37:05. | :37:07. | |
In the second part of this interview I began by asking Phil what happened | :37:08. | :37:10. | |
It wasn't until the Sunday, this is following the kidnapping | :37:11. | :37:14. | |
on the Tuesday, the Sunday we heard there were some | :37:15. | :37:16. | |
It turns out that in the early hours of Monday morning, | :37:17. | :37:20. | |
the attacker, this Lukasz Herba, walks into the consulate office | :37:21. | :37:22. | |
with Chloe and says I'm her friend, she's the girl who's been kidnapped, | :37:23. | :37:25. | |
Well, the consulate staff immediately rang the police, | :37:26. | :37:39. | |
he was arrested and then Chloe had to face 16 hours... | :37:40. | :37:42. | |
16 hours of questioning by the police, who were | :37:43. | :37:46. | |
I had to say they were insensitive and didn't show much compassion | :37:47. | :37:56. | |
during the time of the interviewing and, in fact, one of the magistrates | :37:57. | :38:02. | |
in Italy who she had to face doubted some of the elements of the story. | :38:03. | :38:05. | |
And openly said to her you're lying, you know? | :38:06. | :38:09. | |
And, of course, it is an amazing story. | :38:10. | :38:13. | |
In fact, when the British police heard that this man had walked | :38:14. | :38:20. | |
into the consulate with the model they thought, hang on a second, | :38:21. | :38:24. | |
it looks like the photographer was kidnapped as well. | :38:25. | :38:27. | |
When she gave me the whole version of events, from being attacked | :38:28. | :38:37. | |
to being released, it did sound amazingly fantastic to be true. | :38:38. | :38:40. | |
Equally so, I always kept staunchly loyal to Chloe, who I represented. | :38:41. | :38:52. | |
She clearly had gone through a tremendous amount | :38:53. | :38:58. | |
of suffering and horrific ordeal, and I know that if that had happened | :38:59. | :39:03. | |
to 95% of the other models in my agency they would have | :39:04. | :39:07. | |
crumbled and not reached a conclusion in this. | :39:08. | :39:14. | |
I feel that she has been incredibly strong - | :39:15. | :39:17. | |
strong willed and strong minded - to try to get through this. | :39:18. | :39:21. | |
She doesn't seem to have been fazed by the ordeal. | :39:22. | :39:24. | |
When it first emerged, we saw pictures quite quickly | :39:25. | :39:27. | |
of her in front of the media with the puppy, looking | :39:28. | :39:30. | |
Well, I know her, I've known her for a year. | :39:31. | :39:40. | |
I don't think I've ever seen her fazed through any situation. | :39:41. | :39:44. | |
But this was a traumatic ordeal, was she not traumatised? | :39:45. | :39:48. | |
My worry was that maybe she was psychologically | :39:49. | :39:51. | |
scarred from this and, indeed, the police in this | :39:52. | :39:53. | |
country said we're going to get her counselling. | :39:54. | :39:56. | |
And I think, you know, it might be a delayed reaction. | :39:57. | :40:02. | |
But certainly right now there is no sign of any | :40:03. | :40:04. | |
The detail of what she went through is distressing, | :40:05. | :40:12. | |
it's shocking, and yet she doesn't seem to have much public sympathy. | :40:13. | :40:15. | |
I understand that, and it really is because of this lapse of time | :40:16. | :40:20. | |
And thank you very much, the Italian police, | :40:21. | :40:26. | |
Certainly Chloe wouldn't have wanted that. | :40:27. | :40:32. | |
When she spoke to me from her hotel room in Milan | :40:33. | :40:35. | |
after the ordeal she said, well, I don't want | :40:36. | :40:37. | |
She said, I'm actually humiliated by it, I don't want people to know | :40:38. | :40:41. | |
I want to just come back to the country and get back | :40:42. | :40:46. | |
to my mum and my dog and just carry on my life. | :40:47. | :40:49. | |
But the Italian police have a strange way of | :40:50. | :40:51. | |
So she never wanted any publicity around this? | :40:52. | :40:55. | |
She gave her evidence at a pre-trial review ten days ago and straight | :40:56. | :41:00. | |
after the pre-trial review the prosecutor then called a meeting | :41:01. | :41:04. | |
with the press in Italy, first of all, and that meeting | :41:05. | :41:09. | |
and that press release brought about attention | :41:10. | :41:11. | |
But she, of course, didn't have to respond to that. | :41:12. | :41:17. | |
She could have stayed quiet about it. | :41:18. | :41:20. | |
She didn't have to respond, but you mention the stories | :41:21. | :41:23. | |
Those stories have come about because the press didn't | :41:24. | :41:28. | |
Even the Italian police were doubting her, don't | :41:29. | :41:34. | |
And it's only now through confirmation from her lawyer that | :41:35. | :41:40. | |
people are now starting to believe that she actually went through this. | :41:41. | :41:44. | |
She doesn't get upset when we talk about it. | :41:45. | :42:03. | |
The only thing we've talked about, and she's said, | :42:04. | :42:08. | |
I'm afraid to go out alone, which she never was. | :42:09. | :42:11. | |
I mean, she used to come up to see me at the agency and travel | :42:12. | :42:15. | |
But now she's said I really don't want to get on a train or any public | :42:16. | :42:24. | |
So that, for me, is the only outward sign I've seen of it | :42:25. | :42:28. | |
She is now making money out of what she went through. | :42:29. | :42:36. | |
That was never the intention and, as I said, she's been called | :42:37. | :42:43. | |
to the press to give her version of events. | :42:44. | :42:45. | |
OK, she's been paid for it, you know... | :42:46. | :42:47. | |
But not just through the press, through public speaking, | :42:48. | :42:51. | |
People will presumably book her now because she is known | :42:52. | :42:55. | |
Well, all her modelling has been cancelled. | :42:56. | :43:01. | |
There hasn't been any topless photo shoots since she got back, | :43:02. | :43:03. | |
She's with an agency now who specialise in public speaking. | :43:04. | :43:07. | |
You know, after all we've been through, a successful year and then | :43:08. | :43:17. | |
the time she spent in Milan, myself paying for her accommodation, | :43:18. | :43:20. | |
her food and expenses, paying for her return flight ticket | :43:21. | :43:22. | |
back, 24 hours after getting back to go and walk into another agent's | :43:23. | :43:25. | |
Do you feel any guilt around the fact that this all happens, | :43:26. | :43:38. | |
She was on your books, she was sent off on this photo shoot | :43:39. | :43:44. | |
You have to feel a little amount of guilt. | :43:45. | :43:50. | |
Would I have done anything different? | :43:51. | :43:51. | |
Again, if the same situation arose, probably not. | :43:52. | :43:56. | |
The same checks have been carried out by my agency | :43:57. | :43:59. | |
on countless hundreds, maybe thousands, of jobs | :44:00. | :44:01. | |
over the last 30 years I've had my agency. | :44:02. | :44:05. | |
And we've never had an incident, we've never had to challenge | :44:06. | :44:09. | |
a client or a photographer who we've sent a model to saying | :44:10. | :44:12. | |
that was inappropriate or, you know, they've never been in danger | :44:13. | :44:15. | |
I think possibly, possibly on future jobs, certainly abroad, | :44:16. | :44:26. | |
I might say to the model if you prefer, maybe think | :44:27. | :44:31. | |
It isn't something the agency offers, it's something we don't | :44:32. | :44:39. | |
have, but if a model wants to take someone with her, maybe | :44:40. | :44:42. | |
And that was to ailing's agent Phil Green talking to me about her | :44:43. | :44:56. | |
ordeal. It has been 70 years since partition | :44:57. | :45:14. | |
between India and Pakistan came into effect. It was the largest mass | :45:15. | :45:18. | |
migration ever recorded, 12 million people on the move across the newly | :45:19. | :45:21. | |
formed borders. Muslim is journeyed to West and East, but and that now | :45:22. | :45:28. | |
forms Pakistan, Hindus and Sikhs headed in the opposite direction, | :45:29. | :45:31. | |
hundreds of thousand of duck did or killed. -- Abdul did. | :45:32. | :45:35. | |
Let's talk now to Vinod Chhabra who fled what is now Pakistan | :45:36. | :45:38. | |
for India when he was nine years old, | :45:39. | :45:40. | |
his cousin Ajay Chhabra and his son Diren. | :45:41. | :45:42. | |
Ajay says partition has lived with his family for decades, | :45:43. | :45:44. | |
Gurinder Chadha who directed films Bend it like Beckham and this year's | :45:45. | :45:47. | |
Viceroys House amongst other joins us from the Wagah border | :45:48. | :45:50. | |
which separates India and Pakistan and has played host to events | :45:51. | :45:52. | |
marking the 70th anniversary, and in Leicester in Professor | :45:53. | :45:55. | |
Gurharpal Singh who has speciliasded in the history of Partition. | :45:56. | :46:11. | |
Thank you for joining us, it's great to have three generations of your | :46:12. | :46:17. | |
family here to talk about what you went through. You were nine when | :46:18. | :46:28. | |
partition happened, what happened? Firstly I want to say happy | :46:29. | :46:32. | |
Independence Day to all of those watching this programme. Luckily it | :46:33. | :46:39. | |
is 50 years today, it is the 15th of August I landed here in England on | :46:40. | :46:45. | |
the 15th and that was one of those days when my uncle brought me from | :46:46. | :46:50. | |
the Heathrow Airport, and from onwards I have been here and in | :46:51. | :46:55. | |
Germany and all around Europe and have been working here. These are | :46:56. | :47:02. | |
the memories I will have to go back, I mean long dark about 60 years. And | :47:03. | :47:10. | |
that is in my childhood. Those are the memories which I personally | :47:11. | :47:18. | |
think are still haunting, sometimes when I think about them. So what do | :47:19. | :47:32. | |
you remember of that time? Precisely I will tell you, because I was | :47:33. | :47:38. | |
around eight or nine. I was not in a school because there were disturbed | :47:39. | :47:42. | |
areas all around and actually we were not regularly going to school. | :47:43. | :47:53. | |
Unfortunately that was... We work in one of the major cities in Pakistan. | :47:54. | :48:00. | |
Sorry to interrupt, literally in an instant your life changed from the | :48:01. | :48:05. | |
ordered life you had known up until that point and suddenly it was gone, | :48:06. | :48:11. | |
how did you cope with that? It changed to some extent that I would | :48:12. | :48:14. | |
say at that time I didn't understand, but then when I grew up, | :48:15. | :48:22. | |
I said how did that happen to our family? The factory and we were | :48:23. | :48:37. | |
living there and asked to leave that place immediately. So you lost | :48:38. | :48:46. | |
everything overnight? At the age I'm talking about, we did not know what | :48:47. | :48:51. | |
was happening tomorrow because we were shifting from that area to a | :48:52. | :49:00. | |
place with military and rifles and everything. They said, don't go up, | :49:01. | :49:08. | |
don't show your faces. That's why it was so scary, we were so small and | :49:09. | :49:11. | |
we didn't know what was happening all around. We have Diren next to | :49:12. | :49:23. | |
you. What do you think when you hear Vinod talking about what he went | :49:24. | :49:29. | |
through at the age you are? It must have been horrible time for him. | :49:30. | :49:33. | |
Since he's my grandfather I know how it feels and I know him. When he | :49:34. | :49:39. | |
left his home, he left everything, he only took the things he really | :49:40. | :49:45. | |
needed. For example, some bedding, the low and some clothes. You | :49:46. | :49:50. | |
wouldn't need your bed frame, your fridge. You would just move and rush | :49:51. | :49:54. | |
out. You would turn on your radio in the morning and here all of a | :49:55. | :50:01. | |
sudden, "Get out of India". You obviously know a lot about it, does | :50:02. | :50:10. | |
your family talk openly about it? Yes, my dad told me when I was eight | :50:11. | :50:15. | |
or nine, and I intend now. I went online and looked at it, how some | :50:16. | :50:19. | |
people still have grandads still living now. | :50:20. | :50:34. | |
Gurinder, this is not something on curriculum is in a commonplace way, | :50:35. | :50:48. | |
how do you see partition? You're absolutely right, the British Empire | :50:49. | :50:51. | |
is rarely taught now in schools and I think the real question is, yes, | :50:52. | :50:55. | |
there were terrible things that happen during partition but what my | :50:56. | :51:04. | |
studio house looks at is the reasons these things happened. I don't think | :51:05. | :51:07. | |
enough people are focusing on the fact it was British policy at that | :51:08. | :51:12. | |
time to have the divide, to make partition happened. People like the | :51:13. | :51:17. | |
family of the guests in the studio and my own family, their concerns | :51:18. | :51:21. | |
didn't really matter at the time when this policy to divide India was | :51:22. | :51:26. | |
being planned by the British, way before 1947. What was your family's | :51:27. | :51:38. | |
situation? My grandmother was in a place, which is now Pakistan, with | :51:39. | :51:41. | |
her five young children, and very similar. One day trucks and there's | :51:42. | :51:48. | |
too much violence and you have to leave so she was put on the trot | :51:49. | :51:52. | |
with her children. They were on a train for three days with no food | :51:53. | :51:57. | |
and water, and couldn't get off the train because there was cholera | :51:58. | :52:01. | |
everywhere. Eventually her milk dried up and her youngest child | :52:02. | :52:06. | |
starved to death and they ended up in a refugee camp for months on end. | :52:07. | :52:13. | |
It is a tragedy for my family, as it is for many people. But I want | :52:14. | :52:19. | |
people to ask questions why it happened, and people are too busy | :52:20. | :52:23. | |
focusing on the trauma of partition and not asking why it happened, | :52:24. | :52:27. | |
because it's a lot to do with the geopolitics at the time between | :52:28. | :52:31. | |
Britain and America, much like we see happening in the world today | :52:32. | :52:34. | |
where suffering is happening with refugees. How do you explain how it | :52:35. | :52:54. | |
happened, professor? I would differ, in that I don't think you can | :52:55. | :53:00. | |
entirely placed the blame on British Raj. The situation in India after | :53:01. | :53:05. | |
the Second World War had become quite ungovernable and from almost a | :53:06. | :53:15. | |
year before the events happened, there was widespread communal | :53:16. | :53:25. | |
rioting. Even in March 1947, many months before the partition actually | :53:26. | :53:30. | |
occurred, Indian politicians and politicians in Punjab were | :53:31. | :53:36. | |
clamouring for the division of the province. So I think in a sense | :53:37. | :53:44. | |
there is a shared blame, and it's not something most academic | :53:45. | :53:46. | |
historians take seriously, but it was solely the responsibility of | :53:47. | :53:53. | |
British government and the colonial administration in India, in | :53:54. | :54:00. | |
particular Mountbatten's decision to advance the transfer of power by | :54:01. | :54:15. | |
several months. Vinod... Sorry to interrupt you but I want to go back | :54:16. | :54:23. | |
to Vinod because I was struck at the beginning by your immediate reaction | :54:24. | :54:30. | |
to say happy Independence Day. When Independence Day came, we didn't | :54:31. | :54:38. | |
know it was happy. One thing I tell you that we went through the trucks, | :54:39. | :54:43. | |
we went through the road, we have seen a train full of dead bodies | :54:44. | :54:48. | |
that we were not allowed to go there. Actually our factory was | :54:49. | :54:53. | |
nearby and I was not allowed to go to the station, which was almost | :54:54. | :54:58. | |
walking distance, and they said no, you shouldn't go there. I could see | :54:59. | :55:04. | |
the blood coming out of those compartments. The people were inside | :55:05. | :55:09. | |
that we didn't know, and we were asking what's happening here. Then | :55:10. | :55:15. | |
we were put into the trucks with my grandmother, grandfather, brother, | :55:16. | :55:20. | |
sister, everybody, into the trucks, and the trucks kept on going, going, | :55:21. | :55:27. | |
going. People walking on the road, people not only walking, they were | :55:28. | :55:30. | |
crying, feeling, there was no water given. Also it was believe you me a | :55:31. | :55:44. | |
terrible experience as a child. The events you are describing are | :55:45. | :55:55. | |
unimaginable. Ajay, its understanding bitterness would | :55:56. | :55:58. | |
trickle through the generations of a family, how do you see it? I don't | :55:59. | :56:05. | |
think... I have grown up in a family where bitterness did not exist, and | :56:06. | :56:14. | |
in fact compassion and the things that hold us together, our cultural | :56:15. | :56:18. | |
values, is the environment in which I grew up in. I speak to other | :56:19. | :56:26. | |
colleagues or friends or family who have had similar experiences. I | :56:27. | :56:29. | |
think that metaphor repeats itself again and again and I think that's | :56:30. | :56:34. | |
the incredible power of that place, of that community. I think our | :56:35. | :56:38. | |
families didn't look back, they looked forward, they had to. As | :56:39. | :56:45. | |
Vinod described, the brutal images that he lives with. For us, for | :56:46. | :56:53. | |
myself it was important to convey some of that to my son because these | :56:54. | :56:58. | |
are the missing pieces of jigsaw in family narratives, you know, history | :56:59. | :57:03. | |
repeats itself and these borders are artificial and it's important we | :57:04. | :57:07. | |
reflect on all of these corners of history in order for our next | :57:08. | :57:11. | |
generation, I suppose, to understand the world a better. So I'm really | :57:12. | :57:23. | |
pleased that Diren has understood this but also that the communities | :57:24. | :57:28. | |
have looked forward and not back. Gurinder, you have been attending | :57:29. | :57:34. | |
events, what has the mood been there? Last night I attended a | :57:35. | :57:45. | |
candlelit vigil at the Wagah border. Normally people come from Pakistan | :57:46. | :57:49. | |
with candles and also from India but sadly last night the Pakistanis | :57:50. | :57:54. | |
weren't allowed permission so just the Indians were there, so that was | :57:55. | :57:59. | |
quite sad. I think one of the things you will find in India, where I am | :58:00. | :58:05. | |
now in Punjab, is there are not a lot of initiatives between people | :58:06. | :58:10. | |
and cultural groups to keep those ties strong, particularly through | :58:11. | :58:14. | |
artists and poets, literature. There are great moves to say that yes, the | :58:15. | :58:19. | |
land might be divided but actually our hearts are not and our culture. | :58:20. | :58:26. | |
Thank you, that is a good point to end the programme on. Thank you, | :58:27. | :58:30. | |
all, for your company. I will see 70 years after the | :58:31. | :58:33. | |
Partition of India, Anita Rani and three other | :58:34. | :58:35. | |
Britons discover how | :58:36. | :58:38. |