15/08/2017 Victoria Derbyshire


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15/08/2017

Model Chloe Ayling's former agent tells Joanna Gosling about the ransom demands he received when she was kidnapped in Milan and talks about how she is coping following her ordeal.


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Hello, it is Tuesday, it is 9am, I am Joanna Gosling.

:00:11.:00:14.

In his first BBC interview we hear from Phil Green,

:00:15.:00:17.

the agent who was managing model Chloe Ayling when she was lured

:00:18.:00:20.

to Milan for a photo shoot and then kidnapped and held at a remote

:00:21.:00:23.

He was the one who received the ransom demands -

:00:24.:00:27.

which included a photo of Chloe which he describes as

:00:28.:00:29.

It frightened the life out of me, I did not want to look at it any

:00:30.:00:40.

further. It turns out, are not photograph, it was Chloe and she had

:00:41.:00:42.

been photographed while unconscious. You can hear our full

:00:43.:00:44.

interview with Phil Green Taylor Swift has won a case

:00:45.:00:46.

against a former radio DJ David Mueller had originally

:00:47.:00:50.

sued her, claiming that her But she counter-sued,

:00:51.:00:53.

and yesterday a jury We hear from an American

:00:54.:00:56.

journalist who was in court I would get people who would say I

:00:57.:01:12.

am not even a fan of Taylor Swift but I believe in her cause and what

:01:13.:01:17.

she is doing. It transcended her as a star, and it came down to the fact

:01:18.:01:22.

that a woman has the right to go after someone who was sexually

:01:23.:01:24.

assaulted and she was sexually assaulted.

:01:25.:01:28.

We'll be speaking to a journalist who was in court

:01:29.:01:30.

Also one of Australia's leading cosmetic surgeons tells this

:01:31.:01:34.

programme that the link between textured breast implants

:01:35.:01:35.

and cancer is more common that doctors originally thought -

:01:36.:01:38.

We speak to him, and a woman who developed the disease.

:01:39.:01:44.

Welcome to the programme, we're live until 11 this morning.

:01:45.:01:48.

Also there have been two incidents involving trains at London

:01:49.:01:50.

stations this morning - a train has derailed just outside

:01:51.:01:53.

Waterloo Station after hitting a freight train at low speed -

:01:54.:01:55.

no-one was injured in the incident, though passengers have been advised

:01:56.:01:58.

That was at 5.40 this morning, and in the last hour a train

:01:59.:02:06.

is reported to have hit the buffers at Kings Cross.

:02:07.:02:08.

We will have latest on both incidents throughout the programme.

:02:09.:02:11.

Do get in touch on all the stories we're talking about this morning -

:02:12.:02:14.

use the hashtag Victoria LIVE and If you text, you will be charged

:02:15.:02:17.

The Government is to outline plans to negotiate a temporary customs

:02:18.:02:31.

relationship with the EU, immediately after Brexit.

:02:32.:02:33.

Ministers want to ensure that an arrangement,

:02:34.:02:35.

similar to the current customs union, will remain in place

:02:36.:02:37.

until a final trade settlement takes effect.

:02:38.:02:39.

The Brexit Secretary - David Davis - says it will mean businesses avoid

:02:40.:02:42.

Our political correspondent Leila Nathoo joins me

:02:43.:02:49.

What is the shape of what they're talking about? Awana, this is

:02:50.:02:59.

designed to represent a plan, to show there is something the

:03:00.:03:04.

government is united around, Cabinet is united around, something in place

:03:05.:03:08.

to go to Brussels and take to Brussels when it comes to ensuring

:03:09.:03:12.

goods move freely between the UK and the EU after Brexit. The government

:03:13.:03:18.

is putting forward this idea of a temporary arrangement saying there

:03:19.:03:21.

should be a similar arrangement of what there is now, a temporary

:03:22.:03:25.

customs union designed to reassure businesses there will be no change

:03:26.:03:28.

in rules and then further down the line, after that temporary period of

:03:29.:03:34.

perhaps 2-3 years is over, there will be new customs arrangements in

:03:35.:03:38.

place. But I think what the government is trying to do is

:03:39.:03:42.

present this as an achievable, practical way for what they are

:03:43.:03:47.

confident will be, then Brussels agrees to these proposals but it

:03:48.:03:50.

depends very much on what Brussels thinks and the indication we had so

:03:51.:03:55.

far is that Brussels is not prepared to entertain any talk of future

:03:56.:03:59.

arrangements until there is progress on the divorce Bill, on issues like

:04:00.:04:03.

the said Assen is so I think this is the government trying to be on the

:04:04.:04:08.

front foot really and push the negotiations towards where they want

:04:09.:04:13.

to go. Thank you very much. We will talk more about that later in the

:04:14.:04:16.

programme and will also hear from the Brexit secretary David Davis.

:04:17.:04:20.

Rachel is in the BBC Newsroom with a summary

:04:21.:04:22.

A train has partially derailed at Waterloo station in London,

:04:23.:04:28.

The South West Trains service struck a freight service at low speed at

:04:29.:04:39.

Boxall and Waterloo stations, three people checker injuries but did not

:04:40.:04:44.

need further treatment. 13 platforms out of use and disruption expected

:04:45.:04:47.

to last until the end of today. In a separate incident a train

:04:48.:04:49.

appears to have hit the buffers This image posted in social media

:04:50.:04:59.

appears to show a train being examined by workers at the end of a

:05:00.:05:01.

platform. Mudslides and floods in Sierra Leone

:05:02.:05:01.

are now known to have killed more than 300 people on the outskirts

:05:02.:05:04.

of the capital, Freetown. Thousands more have been forced

:05:05.:05:06.

to flee from their homes. Government officials have warned

:05:07.:05:09.

the number of casualties is expected to rise,

:05:10.:05:11.

with hundreds of bodies thought to be still trapped under

:05:12.:05:14.

the debris, as Greg Dawson reports. While some stare in stunned silence

:05:15.:05:20.

at what is left of their home, others, with their bare hands,

:05:21.:05:23.

are still searching and hoping. But the grim reality is that

:05:24.:05:30.

beneath the tons of mud, This man says he has lost all eight

:05:31.:05:34.

members of his family. Then I started hearing

:05:35.:05:47.

other people crying. This is an overpopulated city,

:05:48.:05:57.

with many living on the hillside in flimsy and unprotected shacks

:05:58.:06:16.

that were crushed by the mud. The Red Cross estimates up to 3000

:06:17.:06:22.

people have lost their homes. Those that aren't completely

:06:23.:06:25.

destroyed are caked This is a city well used to heavy

:06:26.:06:27.

rains, but the scale of the damage Many roads and towns are either

:06:28.:06:31.

cut off or transformed The challenge for rescuers is simply

:06:32.:06:35.

trying to reach those who are still trapped,

:06:36.:06:41.

awaiting supplies of food North Korean leader Kim Jong Un,

:06:42.:06:43.

has been briefed by the country's military leaders on how

:06:44.:06:53.

they could fulfil his threat to fire missiles near the American island

:06:54.:06:56.

of Guam in the Pacific. According to North Korea state media

:06:57.:07:07.

the report said he would watch US actions before making a decision.

:07:08.:07:12.

Last week tensions escalated when Pyongyang threatened to fire four

:07:13.:07:14.

missiles into the sea off Guam. The pop star Taylor Swift has won

:07:15.:07:16.

a sexual assault case against ex-radio DJ David Mueller,

:07:17.:07:19.

who she said had groped His claim for damages,

:07:20.:07:21.

on the grounds that his reputation had been destroyed by false

:07:22.:07:25.

allegations, was thrown out. He's been ordered to pay a token

:07:26.:07:28.

one-dollar in damages. Taylor Swift said she took

:07:29.:07:33.

the action against him to give other victims of sexual assault

:07:34.:07:36.

the confidence to A pensioner who was stabbed while

:07:37.:07:50.

trying to save the life of labour in June Cox has died. 79-year-old

:07:51.:07:54.

Bernard Kenny was awarded the George medal for his bravery after he

:07:55.:07:57.

intervenes when a right-wing extremist attack the MP in the

:07:58.:08:01.

run-up to last your's EU referendum. Mr Kenny was seriously injured in

:08:02.:08:05.

the attack but because of his death not believed to be related to the

:08:06.:08:06.

incident. Rail passengers will learn this

:08:07.:08:08.

morning how much more they'll be paying for some of their journeys

:08:09.:08:11.

from January next year. Regulated fares which account for

:08:12.:08:22.

almost half ticket will go up by the rate of inflation, the exact figure

:08:23.:08:25.

will be published this morning. It is expected to be around three and a

:08:26.:08:29.

half percent, well above average pay rises.

:08:30.:08:34.

A girl has died after a man drove a car into a pizza restaurant

:08:35.:08:37.

Twelve other people were injured in the attack,

:08:38.:08:40.

Police said they're treating the incident as deliberate,

:08:41.:08:43.

The driver of the car, a 32-year-old man, has been arrested.

:08:44.:08:52.

The fat but fit the theory that overweight people can still be

:08:53.:08:58.

healthy is nothing but a myth, according to researchers from two

:08:59.:09:01.

top UK universities. Scientists found carrying extra weight can

:09:02.:09:04.

increase the risk of heart disease by more than a quarter, even in

:09:05.:09:09.

people who are otherwise healthy. Our health correspondence will be

:09:10.:09:10.

and has more. Suggests even a blood test are

:09:11.:09:57.

within the normal range excess weight is still a normal helpless.

:09:58.:10:02.

The rink -- linked people with BMI is over 35 who are healthy but

:10:03.:10:08.

overweight to an estimated increased risk of coronary heart disease of 26

:10:09.:10:13.

and 28% respectively. And third to those with a healthy body weight. At

:10:14.:10:17.

the beginning of the study they were classified as healthy and then they

:10:18.:10:22.

probably went on, and became unhealthy and then eventually some

:10:23.:10:25.

of them developed heart disease, heart attack. The researchers

:10:26.:10:30.

believe excess fat may well store up health problems for the future and

:10:31.:10:34.

getting down to a healthy weight for whatever your sport is vitally

:10:35.:10:38.

important. Sophie Hutchinson, BBC News.

:10:39.:10:45.

A stuntwoman has been killed in a motorcycle accident in Canada

:10:46.:10:47.

while making the sequel to the superhero film, Deadpool.

:10:48.:10:49.

Witnesses described how the woman lost control of the bike,

:10:50.:10:52.

jumped a kerb and crashed into a building.

:10:53.:10:54.

The film's lead actor, Ryan Reynolds, said the cast

:10:55.:10:56.

and crew were "heartbroken, shocked and devastated"

:10:57.:10:58.

Iran says it could abandon its nuclear deal with world

:10:59.:11:01.

powers "within hours", if the United States continues

:11:02.:11:03.

President Hassan Rouhani told the country's parliament.

:11:04.:11:11.

The deal which was struck in 2015 saw the lifting of most

:11:12.:11:14.

international sanctions in return for curbs on its nuclear programme.

:11:15.:11:20.

A box filled with essentials for newborn babies will be arriving

:11:21.:11:23.

at the homes of new parents in Scotland from today.

:11:24.:11:25.

The 'baby boxes' are inspired by a scheme in Finland to give

:11:26.:11:28.

all new mums a starter pack of things like clothes,

:11:29.:11:31.

But the box also doubles up as a cot, as the Scottish Government

:11:32.:11:37.

wants to promote safe sleeping in a bid to reduce

:11:38.:11:39.

And how do you say the name of this budget retailer, Primark? The budget

:11:40.:11:59.

retailer has said the pronunciation straight, and said it liked to use a

:12:00.:12:05.

particular pronunciation. Many users took to social media to express

:12:06.:12:07.

their preference. That's a summary of the latest BBC

:12:08.:12:08.

News - more at 9.30. A great way to get us talking about

:12:09.:12:16.

their brand. The latest inflation figures due out at 9:30am, experts

:12:17.:12:20.

predict inflation will outstrip growth in pay packets.

:12:21.:12:21.

Do get in touch with us throughout the morning -

:12:22.:12:24.

use the hashtag Victoria live and If you text, you will be charged

:12:25.:12:27.

Liverpool manager Jurgen Klopp has a lot on his plate so early

:12:28.:12:33.

Liverpool hoping to rid the group stages of the Champions League, they

:12:34.:12:50.

are in Germany tonight. Plenty for manager Jurgen Klopp to ponder and

:12:51.:12:53.

he made it clear that night's matches the only thing on his mind

:12:54.:12:58.

of the future of midfielder Philippe Coutinho. The Brazilian is a target

:12:59.:13:03.

for Barcelona but Liverpool rejected two bids for other highly

:13:04.:13:07.

influential playmaker before continues admitted a transfer

:13:08.:13:10.

request last week which the club dismissed. He did not feature in the

:13:11.:13:14.

draw at Watford because of a back injury, Jurgen Klopp admitting why

:13:15.:13:18.

he no speculation surrounding continual is rife, his sole focus is

:13:19.:13:23.

on the game ahead. I really understand everybody is interested

:13:24.:13:27.

in this but I can say in this moment I am really inking about it. -- I

:13:28.:13:34.

can't say. I am here and I will answer questions but in the car, on

:13:35.:13:37.

the way to this Conference, I did not think what can I say because I

:13:38.:13:41.

have to think of other things. Honest and animated as ever. Chelsea

:13:42.:13:48.

have a battle on the hands trying to get Diego Costa to report for

:13:49.:13:53.

training, he is still in Brazil? The Chelsea striker rarely far from the

:13:54.:13:59.

headlines. His -- he is more notable because of his absence, understood

:14:00.:14:02.

he has been ordered to return to the Premier League champions up to being

:14:03.:14:05.

fined for failing to report for pre-season training. He was told by

:14:06.:14:10.

the manager Antonio Costa bath-macro Antonio Conte back in a text message

:14:11.:14:14.

that he was not part of his plans for the season. The striker is

:14:15.:14:18.

currently in Brazil, threatening to set out the remaining two years of

:14:19.:14:21.

his contract if he is not allowed to leave. It's been mooted he has his

:14:22.:14:30.

heart set on legal action as he wants to return to Atletico Madrid.

:14:31.:14:35.

Andy Murray losing his number one slot to Rafael Nadal. He has been

:14:36.:14:41.

blighted by injury, knocked out in struggling all season and Andy

:14:42.:14:45.

Murray set to lose his number one status in the world, taken by Rafael

:14:46.:14:49.

Nadal who will take the mantle for the first time since 2014. It would

:14:50.:14:55.

have been Wimbledon champion Roger Federer but the Swiss has pulled out

:14:56.:14:59.

of the Cincinnati Masters, no Andy Murray there either, Rafael Nadal

:15:00.:15:02.

who reached round to their with these claimed the spot almost by

:15:03.:15:07.

default, being as humble as he is, says he is sorry it comes at the

:15:08.:15:10.

expense of his top rivals. Thank you so much.

:15:11.:15:20.

Now let's go back to the extraordinary story of Chloe Ayling.

:15:21.:15:29.

for what she thought was a photoshoot, but instead says

:15:30.:15:33.

she ended up being drugged and kidnapped and held for six days

:15:34.:15:36.

by Lukasz Herba, a Polish national from Birmingham.

:15:37.:15:38.

She claims he told her she was going to be sold into sex slavery then

:15:39.:15:41.

issued a ransom note to a number of people in the UK for her release.

:15:42.:15:45.

One of those was Phil Green, her agent at the time -

:15:46.:15:48.

who had initially booked her on the job with Lukasz,

:15:49.:15:50.

who was posing as a photographer named Andre.

:15:51.:15:52.

In his only BBC interview, Phil Green - that former agent -

:15:53.:15:55.

He praises Chloe's bravery throughout this ordeal

:15:56.:15:58.

and claims she has been offered counselling but has refused,

:15:59.:16:00.

despite her now being afraid to go anywhere alone.

:16:01.:16:02.

I began by asking Phil what the arrangements

:16:03.:16:04.

First of all, from my point of view, the photographer,

:16:05.:16:16.

a man called Andre Lazio - he called himself -

:16:17.:16:18.

specifically asked for Chloe to do

:16:19.:16:20.

With all clients, particularly new clients, I carry out

:16:21.:16:23.

I asked him who he was, where he was, does he have a website,

:16:24.:16:28.

had he done work previously, what this particular job was for,

:16:29.:16:31.

where the studio is, check it out on Google maps,

:16:32.:16:33.

Then we start talking about arrangements for the shoot,

:16:34.:16:39.

which would include fees, expenses, and then the travel

:16:40.:16:48.

arrangements for the shoot, would she be required to arrive

:16:49.:16:50.

the day before, would the photographer pay for the flight

:16:51.:16:53.

So all that information came together and it ticked

:16:54.:16:56.

There were no alarm bells ringing at any point?

:16:57.:17:04.

Nothing flagged up whatsoever to make me suspicious that this man

:17:05.:17:06.

What checks had you carried out to make sure that this

:17:07.:17:10.

Because she's been speaking and says you didn't carry out

:17:11.:17:15.

She wouldn't necessarily know the checks that go on in the agency.

:17:16.:17:22.

We, as I said, carry out due diligence checks and we wouldn't

:17:23.:17:25.

expose anyone to a situation like that without fully

:17:26.:17:27.

How did the checks all pass, though, when he was not what he said he was?

:17:28.:17:38.

The photographer had a website which told me

:17:39.:17:40.

he'd done previous work, there were models

:17:41.:17:44.

I assumed he'd photographed previously.

:17:45.:17:50.

And every check regarding his studio and location, there was nothing

:17:51.:17:53.

being flagged up for me to think or even suggest that there

:17:54.:17:57.

was anything suspicious about him or what he was proposing.

:17:58.:18:02.

So you and she were very happy when she went off to Milan

:18:03.:18:05.

What was the first that you knew that there was a problem?

:18:06.:18:11.

Well, there was a meeting in Paris three or four months before

:18:12.:18:17.

the ordeal in Italy took place, so therefore the attacker,

:18:18.:18:26.

we'll now call him, actually saw face to face the model in Paris.

:18:27.:18:30.

On the eve of the shoot, there was a terrorist attack

:18:31.:18:33.

in Paris on the Champs-Elysees, a policeman got shot.

:18:34.:18:37.

There was a lot of police activity around that night.

:18:38.:18:42.

And I'd given each other their phone numbers.

:18:43.:18:44.

I said if there's a problem, phone each other and you

:18:45.:18:46.

And a call came through, I think it was a text to begin with,

:18:47.:18:59.

to Chloe, from the photographer, saying my studio's been ransacked

:19:00.:19:01.

while all this activity was going on last night.

:19:02.:19:03.

They've taken things from my studio and I'm not able

:19:04.:19:06.

The photographer, in inverted commas, met the model and they had

:19:07.:19:10.

a brief conversation and 100 euros were handed over to say, well,

:19:11.:19:13.

that will keep you going with food and taxi fares during the day.

:19:14.:19:20.

You know, to be honest, both Chloe and myself felt sorry for him.

:19:21.:19:24.

His studio had been ransacked, he'd already paid for the shoot and,

:19:25.:19:27.

you know, we thought he's getting nothing for his money.

:19:28.:19:33.

He said, well, look, I'll rearrange the shoot,

:19:34.:19:35.

How ironic that then he would set this up in Milan

:19:36.:19:43.

and the same situation, same kind of shoot,

:19:44.:19:47.

You received an e-mail from the kidnapper.

:19:48.:19:59.

The evening of the shoot I was contacted by Chloe's mother

:20:00.:20:07.

And I was saying to her, well, perhaps she's either missed

:20:08.:20:16.

the flight or the flight's delayed, or she had a shoot the next day

:20:17.:20:20.

in Ibiza, she might have thought I'm going to fly straight

:20:21.:20:23.

So I was trying to sort of play it down, there must be a reason why

:20:24.:20:29.

But then the next morning came and we checked,

:20:30.:20:33.

The phone was ringing still with an overseas ringing tone,

:20:34.:20:39.

and we kind of thought that, still, she could possibly be

:20:40.:20:42.

But I said to her mother, look, I think you'd actually

:20:43.:20:49.

In her area it's the Metropolitan Police.

:20:50.:20:54.

She went to Croydon police station and told everybody there.

:20:55.:21:00.

It wasn't until just after 10am on July the 12th,

:21:01.:21:02.

the day after the shoot, when I opened my e-mail inbox

:21:03.:21:05.

I found something incredibly sinister and worrying.

:21:06.:21:13.

It was the first e-mail contact from someone on behalf

:21:14.:21:18.

of the Black Death group saying to me, chillingly, that they'd taken

:21:19.:21:24.

Chloe and I was to find some ransom money for her.

:21:25.:21:27.

What detail was in the e-mail that you got?

:21:28.:21:30.

Who they were, the Black Death group, they gave me the names

:21:31.:21:33.

of three businessmen, UK businessmen, I think that Chloe

:21:34.:21:35.

And said I was to contact any one of these three or all three

:21:36.:21:47.

At that stage no figure was mentioned as to

:21:48.:21:52.

But there was a deadline, the deadline was four

:21:53.:21:58.

days later on the Sunday when they were going to say

:21:59.:22:04.

if you don't pay any money by then we're going to offer Chloe

:22:05.:22:10.

to auction, where she may be sold to Russian Mafia.

:22:11.:22:18.

How seriously did you take that e-mail?

:22:19.:22:20.

My first thought was to ring the police in Italy, and I did that.

:22:21.:22:24.

I then rang the British Consulate in Milan, because I knew

:22:25.:22:26.

They took it extremely seriously, rang the Foreign Office special

:22:27.:22:31.

crimes division who then contacted me to discuss the details

:22:32.:22:34.

And then I was contacted by my own force, special

:22:35.:22:39.

operations from East Midlands, where I'm based, who came

:22:40.:22:43.

to the office because this is the place where I'm receiving

:22:44.:22:46.

the e-mails and they then took over the case.

:22:47.:22:50.

More or less the same time, three e-mails came through simultaneously.

:22:51.:23:00.

And they were just sort of ratcheting up the pressure.

:23:01.:23:05.

One e-mail was from supposedly a different person saying

:23:06.:23:08.

The second e-mail then contained an attachment,

:23:09.:23:16.

In the attachment was a press release.

:23:17.:23:22.

It said this is Chloe Ayling, she's aged so-and-so,

:23:23.:23:26.

her measurements are blah blah blah and she will be offered

:23:27.:23:33.

More or less saying express your interest in this now.

:23:34.:23:39.

Then the other attachment, slightly more sinister,

:23:40.:23:47.

was a photograph that had been taken of Chloe.

:23:48.:23:50.

I must admit, I didn't identify her from the brief look

:23:51.:23:55.

In fact, it frightened the life out of me.

:23:56.:23:58.

I didn't want to look at it any further.

:23:59.:24:01.

It turns out on that photograph was Chloe.

:24:02.:24:03.

She'd been photographed while unconscious and...

:24:04.:24:06.

Well, I didn't know at the time, obviously, but I was told later

:24:07.:24:12.

it was at the studio where she was taken.

:24:13.:24:16.

How much time elapsed, then, between you getting these e-mails

:24:17.:24:19.

and what happened next in terms of her finally being released?

:24:20.:24:23.

Well, we've now reached day three following the kidnap and the police

:24:24.:24:30.

were keeping up this sort of dialogue with the kidnappers.

:24:31.:24:39.

Via e-mail, intercepting my e-mails and sending them e-mails

:24:40.:24:46.

And making some kind of offer just to keep this attacker interested

:24:47.:24:53.

And these kind of conversations, I mean, they were few

:24:54.:24:59.

There might be an e-mail sent in the morning and it might not be

:25:00.:25:04.

until the evening that a reply was given back.

:25:05.:25:09.

So it was tremendously frustrating for everyone involved.

:25:10.:25:12.

It was being treated with extreme seriousness and it

:25:13.:25:18.

wasn't until the Sunday, this is following the kidnapping

:25:19.:25:24.

on the Tuesday, the Sunday we heard there was some activity

:25:25.:25:27.

It turns out that the early hours of Monday morning,

:25:28.:25:33.

the attacker, this Lukasz Herba, walks into the consulate office

:25:34.:25:44.

with Chloe and says, "I'm her friend, she's the girl

:25:45.:25:46.

I've brought her through for safety."

:25:47.:25:55.

And you can watch the second part of our interview with kidnapped

:25:56.:25:57.

model Chloe Ayling's former agent Phil Green after ten

:25:58.:26:00.

on the programme today, where he tells us what happened

:26:01.:26:04.

after Chloe arrived at the consulate and says that after her

:26:05.:26:06.

ordeal she is now scared to go anywhere alone.

:26:07.:26:12.

We speak to one of Australia's leading breast surgeons

:26:13.:26:16.

about the link between implants and cancer, and a woman

:26:17.:26:18.

who developed a rare form of cancer from her breast implant.

:26:19.:26:22.

We pay tribute to Bernard Kenny, the pensioner who was stabbed trying

:26:23.:26:25.

Here's Rachel in the BBC Newsroom with a summary of todays news.

:26:26.:26:39.

The Government is to outline plans to negotiate a temporary customs

:26:40.:26:42.

relationship with the EU, immediately after Brexit.

:26:43.:26:45.

Ministers want to ensure that an arrangement,

:26:46.:26:47.

similar to the current customs union, will remain in place

:26:48.:26:50.

until a final trade settlement takes effect.

:26:51.:27:00.

The EU Commission said the move was a positive step towards phase one of

:27:01.:27:07.

the negotiations and will study the paper carefully.

:27:08.:27:08.

The Brexit Secretary - David Davis - says it will mean businesses avoid

:27:09.:27:11.

We sell about 230 billion euros of goods and services to the European

:27:12.:27:25.

Union each year. They sell 290 billion to us. I was in Bavaria two

:27:26.:27:31.

or three weeks ago. They sell BMWs, electronic goods, they have got an

:27:32.:27:35.

incredibly strong interest in something like this so there's an

:27:36.:27:38.

interest on both sides of not doing each of the harm if you like. Both

:27:39.:27:43.

to do with customs arrangements but also to do with having a free trade

:27:44.:27:45.

area in the first place. Thousands have been forced to flee

:27:46.:27:59.

from their homes in Freetown. Government officials said the amount

:28:00.:28:02.

of casualties is expected to rise with hundreds of bodies thought to

:28:03.:28:04.

be trapped under the debris. A train has partially derailed at

:28:05.:28:11.

Waterloo Station in London following an operational incident. The service

:28:12.:28:16.

struck a freight train at low speed between Waterloo and Vauxhall

:28:17.:28:21.

stations. Three people were checked for injuries but didn't need further

:28:22.:28:25.

treatment. Disruption is expected to last until the end of today.

:28:26.:28:30.

In a separate incident train appears to have hit the buffers at King's

:28:31.:28:37.

Cross station. This picture appears to show the train being examined by

:28:38.:28:43.

workers at the end of the platform. Taylor Swift has won sexual assault

:28:44.:28:45.

case against David Mueller. His claim for damages,

:28:46.:28:58.

on the grounds that his reputation had been destroyed by false

:28:59.:29:03.

allegations, was thrown out. He's been ordered to pay a token

:29:04.:29:05.

one-dollar in damages. Taylor Swift said she took

:29:06.:29:08.

the action against him to give other victims of sexual assault

:29:09.:29:11.

the confidence to That's a summary of the latest BBC

:29:12.:29:12.

News - more at 10am. Let's go straight to Joanna.

:29:13.:29:24.

We just want to bring you some breaking news on the London

:29:25.:29:27.

Underground, we are hearing that smoke has filled a train carriage at

:29:28.:29:38.

Holborn station. Some are saying there was a loud bang, then smoke

:29:39.:29:43.

and the station has been evacuated. We are also hearing that two fire

:29:44.:29:50.

engines have been sent to Holborn underground station. The Fire

:29:51.:29:58.

Service saying two fire engines have been sent. Reports on social media

:29:59.:30:06.

are potentially of a bang and then smoke filling the platform so we

:30:07.:30:08.

will of course keep you updated. Thank you. The Liverpool manager

:30:09.:30:22.

Jurgen Klopp insists the Champions League fixture tonight in Germany is

:30:23.:30:25.

the only thing on his mind and not the future of Philippe Coutinho. The

:30:26.:30:29.

Brazilian is eyeing a move to another club but Jurgen Klopp says

:30:30.:30:35.

his mind is firmly on the fixture. Diego Costa being ordered to return

:30:36.:30:41.

to Chelsea after failing to emerge for pre-season training. He's been

:30:42.:30:44.

to force a move back to Atletico Madrid after telling and being told

:30:45.:30:48.

by the Chelsea manager he's not part of plans for this season. Premier

:30:49.:30:55.

League clubs are to discuss closing the summer transfer window.

:30:56.:30:59.

Currently runs until August 31, they said to vote on the idea next month

:31:00.:31:03.

and Rafael Nadal will take the world number one ranking from Andy Murray

:31:04.:31:07.

this week. But after Roger Federer pulled out of the Cincinnati

:31:08.:31:13.

Masters. A quick update? Thank you. Just to let you know, we will keep

:31:14.:31:18.

you updated on what is happy make at Holborn station, the underground

:31:19.:31:24.

station evacuated after reports of a loud and, after which smoke filled

:31:25.:31:27.

the platform. British Transport Police have treated to say we are at

:31:28.:31:31.

the station after reports of smoke on a train line, the station closed

:31:32.:31:38.

while officers and London fire investigate and London Fire Brigade

:31:39.:31:41.

have separately said they are investigating reports of smoke on

:31:42.:31:45.

the platform, two fire engines have been sent to investigate. We will of

:31:46.:31:52.

course keep you updated. Let me also bring you the latest inflation

:31:53.:31:56.

figures. The Office for National Statistics just putting out the

:31:57.:31:58.

latest inflation figures, the rate of retail the retail price index

:31:59.:32:06.

inflation, the RPI, which is used to set real season-ticket prices rose

:32:07.:32:11.

to two points 6% in July, but according to the ONS. That's the

:32:12.:32:18.

first figure. We will get other figures around inflation. -- three

:32:19.:32:26.

points six. It had been anticipated inflation figures which show

:32:27.:32:28.

inflation outstripping wage growth. The RPI figure at the moment.

:32:29.:32:37.

We will bring you more on that, and we'll be talking to our business

:32:38.:32:41.

correspondent for further analysis. One of Australia's leading cosmetic

:32:42.:32:46.

surgeons has told this programme the link between breast implants

:32:47.:32:48.

and cancer is more common than doctors initially thought -

:32:49.:32:51.

but stresses the condition Women who have breast implants run

:32:52.:32:53.

the risk of developing a type of blood cancer called Anaplastic

:32:54.:32:57.

large-cell lymphoma - or ALCL. Most surgeons believe the disease

:32:58.:33:02.

affects around 1 in 300,000 patients with breast implants -

:33:03.:33:05.

however, health authorities in Australia estimate it

:33:06.:33:07.

affects around 1 in 5,000. The MHRA - which is responsible

:33:08.:33:13.

for ensuring medicines and medical devices work in the UK -

:33:14.:33:16.

says its investigation Well joining us

:33:17.:33:18.

is one of Australia's leading breast surgeons -

:33:19.:33:29.

DR DANIEL FLEMING - who played a key role

:33:30.:33:31.

in the country's health authorities increasing their official

:33:32.:33:33.

advice on this issue. SANDI CURRIE - who developed

:33:34.:33:35.

a rare form of cancer And - MR KEVIN HANCOCK -

:33:36.:33:37.

a consultant plastic surgeon and a member

:33:38.:33:42.

of the British Association Welcome, all of you and thank you

:33:43.:33:57.

for joining us. Daniel, tell us more about the analysis you carried out

:33:58.:34:02.

and what it indicates on the risk of this particular form of cancer from

:34:03.:34:06.

breast implants? As you said it was initially thought this was extremely

:34:07.:34:11.

rare in the order of one in hundreds of thousands of patients, then it

:34:12.:34:14.

was one intensive thousands but the latest evidence from Australia shows

:34:15.:34:19.

it may be as common as one in 1000 patients with textured breast

:34:20.:34:21.

implants but it's important to keep that in context. Compare it to the

:34:22.:34:26.

risk of any woman with or without implants of developing breast cancer

:34:27.:34:30.

in her lifetime is one in eight, another way of thinking about one in

:34:31.:34:34.

1000 is no denying .9% of these implants not getting the condition.

:34:35.:34:39.

It's rare and yet when the stats go from one in 300,000 to one in 1000

:34:40.:34:44.

that is a dramatic shift, why? We are looking for it. It usually

:34:45.:34:48.

presents with swelling around the breast, less swelling with -- less

:34:49.:34:54.

commonly with a mass. Around 2008-9, when patients presented with that

:34:55.:34:59.

took the fluid off and didn't look for the condition but since then we

:35:00.:35:02.

are looking for it and we are finding it often. Tell us about the

:35:03.:35:06.

condition, what is the prognosis? The other thing women want to know

:35:07.:35:10.

is what's going to happen to me if I am one in 1000 to get it. Some good

:35:11.:35:16.

news. For the vast majority of women who get this condition they will get

:35:17.:35:19.

a non-aggressive version of it, it's not going to threaten their lives

:35:20.:35:24.

and it will be cured by the removal of the implants and the membrane

:35:25.:35:27.

surrounding them. Let's bring in Sandy, you developed this condition

:35:28.:35:31.

from a textured implant, tell us what happened. Pretty much I woke up

:35:32.:35:40.

one morning and my right breast had swollen about two cup sizes bigger

:35:41.:35:48.

than the other so I rang my surgeon, concerned with what was happening, I

:35:49.:35:53.

didn't know if I had a rupture so he sent me to get a needle aspiration

:35:54.:36:00.

and some ultrasound is done and he rang me five days later to say I did

:36:01.:36:06.

in fact have a LCL, this particular cancer. What happened then? Were the

:36:07.:36:17.

implants taken up? It was out of his field, he wasn't confident, he was a

:36:18.:36:24.

cosmetic surgeon and I would suggest struggling to go to a plastic

:36:25.:36:29.

surgeon, when he rang me he said he had forwarded all my files onto an

:36:30.:36:36.

oncologist in Brisbane and I would then be dealing with the oncologist

:36:37.:36:43.

so I went to see her, she ran more tests to verify I did have ALCL and

:36:44.:36:52.

the surgeons at the hospital removed both my implants. Was that it, did

:36:53.:36:59.

that fix it? Pretty much, I've had to go back every three months and

:37:00.:37:03.

have tests done to make sure it hasn't returned. And they will keep

:37:04.:37:10.

doing that probably until next year. Just checking on me to see what in

:37:11.:37:21.

fact is happening and it's, I suppose I am a bit of a guinea pig,

:37:22.:37:25.

if you want to look at it like that. Daniel, the fact that taking up the

:37:26.:37:30.

implants can immediately fix this issue makes us, obviously, there is

:37:31.:37:33.

the direct correlation which makes you wonder whether they should be

:37:34.:37:37.

used and there are some calls to ban them, you have one of the implants

:37:38.:37:40.

here, it is the texture type. That's right. You think they should be

:37:41.:37:46.

banned? Very interesting question, three types of implant, a rough and

:37:47.:37:52.

service, smooth plastic bag type service and another type of the

:37:53.:37:58.

polyurethanes foam. The question is why doesn't everybody has moved

:37:59.:38:01.

implants, the reason for that is the texture and the polyurethanes exists

:38:02.:38:06.

to reduce the risk of complications which can shorten the length of time

:38:07.:38:11.

the implant blasts, visibly hardening of the implants in a

:38:12.:38:15.

condition called contracture. What we believe is that patients have two

:38:16.:38:20.

logical choice is, if you want minimum risk of ALCL chooses move

:38:21.:38:24.

implant at except you have a higher risk of other convocations, if you

:38:25.:38:29.

want to reduce that risk of complications choose the

:38:30.:38:31.

polyurethanes implant which reduces the risk of complications but has a

:38:32.:38:35.

similar risk of ALCL as these implants. We would Saber probably

:38:36.:38:39.

isn't a logical choice to choose a textured implant has little or no

:38:40.:38:43.

benefit the other complications and still has this risk of ALCL, albeit

:38:44.:38:49.

a lower risk. Kevin Hancock, an expert in this country says ALCL

:38:50.:38:53.

linked to breast implants is a potential bombshell that husband

:38:54.:38:55.

swept under the carpet for five years. This is of course going to be

:38:56.:39:02.

worrying for anybody with textured breast implants. How do you see it?

:39:03.:39:07.

I think it's very difficult. This is something that was only first

:39:08.:39:13.

reported at the end of the 19 97, was the first case and as Doctor

:39:14.:39:19.

Fleming has said, we are really not sure yet about the significance of

:39:20.:39:23.

this disease. What we do know and what we should stress to patients is

:39:24.:39:30.

this is breast cancer, this is a cancer that arises in the fluid and

:39:31.:39:37.

the tissue surrounding the implant. And is thought to arise because of

:39:38.:39:42.

inflammation in that layer Doctor Fleming spoke about. He spoke about

:39:43.:39:47.

the texturing to reduce the risk of capital sat hard on the implant. Why

:39:48.:39:56.

is it Daniel that the textured implant that is causing this

:39:57.:39:59.

problem... There are a couple of theories. We know that patients who

:40:00.:40:06.

develop ALCL is the result of some sort of long-term inflammatory

:40:07.:40:09.

process and it also seems to be a genetic component in that, that's

:40:10.:40:13.

why some people get it, some don't, they process the inflammation

:40:14.:40:17.

differently and the idea is that they textured implant, the Robins

:40:18.:40:21.

service me a retreat and cause long-term inflammation. The other

:40:22.:40:23.

theory is these microscopic eggs and crannies on the texturing might

:40:24.:40:28.

harbour small numbers of bacteria which could set up a long-term

:40:29.:40:32.

inflammatory process. Kevin, what would you say to patients in this

:40:33.:40:35.

country, if you have the choice between an implant that will not

:40:36.:40:40.

cause you, not likely to cause you this particular issue, does it make

:40:41.:40:46.

sense to avoid it? I think at the moment we don't really know enough

:40:47.:40:49.

about this to make sweeping statements like that. All the

:40:50.:40:57.

professional associations have advised their members to discuss

:40:58.:40:59.

this with all patients having breast implants. And now we are very aware

:41:00.:41:05.

of the way this disease presents which is usually 7-8 years after the

:41:06.:41:13.

implants have been putting and as your other speaker said, presents as

:41:14.:41:18.

a swelling of the breast so now we are very tuned into this and we are

:41:19.:41:22.

very aware that anybody in that situation needs to be investigated

:41:23.:41:26.

further. When you say we are very tuned into it, it's not something

:41:27.:41:31.

that has been widely known about. Is it certain that if someone has an

:41:32.:41:36.

issue and they go to their GP or surgeon and point it out but it will

:41:37.:41:40.

immediately be recognised? How much awareness is there? There is

:41:41.:41:45.

certainly awareness in the popular press. This is again, it's important

:41:46.:41:52.

that patients have long-term contact with the surgeons that carried out

:41:53.:41:56.

the surgery so they are able to return to them if there are any

:41:57.:42:01.

concerns and we have seen in the past with the PIP scandal that

:42:02.:42:06.

getting back to clinics and surgeons can be difficult for patients. How

:42:07.:42:12.

do you feel now about it? Sandy, after everything that happened to

:42:13.:42:15.

you, do you wish you'd never gone down that path of having those

:42:16.:42:23.

implants? Well, no, I mean, I never, when you first go to consult and

:42:24.:42:29.

explain all the pros and cons, anything is a risk, any surgery. And

:42:30.:42:37.

I did not expect to have this outcome so at that point in my life,

:42:38.:42:43.

I got my implants when I was 45, quite late and the ALCL appeared six

:42:44.:42:52.

years after the implantation. Sorry to interrupt but was too mentioned

:42:53.:42:58.

to you as one of the potential cons? Yes and you also get literature from

:42:59.:43:04.

your surgeon, they do go through every thing, the pros and cons what

:43:05.:43:09.

can happen to you, the H and, mind did capture late and mine was

:43:10.:43:21.

Brazilian textured implant and I... Obviously... Breasts are important

:43:22.:43:29.

to us otherwise we wouldn't be lining up to get them done. So, I

:43:30.:43:36.

have done it again, I have been reimplanted and I'm probably one of

:43:37.:43:40.

the few that have and I was lucky enough to find Doctor Fleming who is

:43:41.:43:49.

an expert with ALCL. So with the new implants, sorry, did you go for

:43:50.:43:56.

smoother texture? I rang Doctor Fleming, he graciously rang me back

:43:57.:44:03.

after hours and talked to the about it and then I had my consult with

:44:04.:44:07.

him I said to him, at the end of the day I will be guided by what you

:44:08.:44:12.

tell me, if you are saying no, this isn't a good idea I will go with

:44:13.:44:16.

that because my options of how I was left was totally disfigured so my

:44:17.:44:24.

options were like, just do a complete hysterectomy or get

:44:25.:44:29.

reimplanted. Because I am having to look every day at my breasts which

:44:30.:44:34.

were disfigured, wasn't going to be much of a life for me. So I have

:44:35.:44:41.

taken the course of being reimplanted and I am watching even

:44:42.:44:46.

more closely to see what progress that has. Daniel, when Sandy

:44:47.:44:52.

described she knew there was an issue, it was obvious, the breast

:44:53.:44:56.

has fallen dramatically, what should people look out for as a potential

:44:57.:45:02.

symptom? This disorder most commonly presents as swelling, an

:45:03.:45:04.

accumulation of fluid around the breast, most people with an

:45:05.:45:08.

accumulation will not have ALCL but they should have checked, go see

:45:09.:45:12.

your doctor. Does that emerge quite quickly? Once the cancer is there

:45:13.:45:16.

are, it's not that it's been there and other symptoms won't have you

:45:17.:45:20.

noticed? We don't know the answer to that but when the swelling appears

:45:21.:45:25.

it is dramatic, or for a day or two, it can't morally present with a long

:45:26.:45:29.

switch if the patient presents with, they need to have that investigator

:45:30.:45:32.

but the other thing that is important, viewers who are watching

:45:33.:45:35.

and may have textured implants and are worrying... The recommendation

:45:36.:45:41.

is there is no need for any special investigation or screening for

:45:42.:45:44.

patients who don't have symptoms, they should do the normal monthly

:45:45.:45:48.

checks for lumps and have a mammogram when they reach the aged

:45:49.:45:50.

necessary to have one. Thank you all.

:45:51.:45:54.

The MHRA - which is responsible for ensuring medicines and medical

:45:55.:45:56.

devices work in the UK gave us this statement:

:45:57.:45:59.

Research into this area is yet to provide a definitive answer

:46:00.:46:01.

as to how ALCL develops although there are several

:46:02.:46:03.

ALCL is very rare but it is important healthcare professionals

:46:04.:46:07.

and women who have implants know about it.

:46:08.:46:09.

If you develop a breast lump or swelling around your implant more

:46:10.:46:12.

than six months after having the breast implant you should seek

:46:13.:46:14.

We hear from a journalist who was in court throughout

:46:15.:46:32.

the Taylor Swift sexual assault case.

:46:33.:46:34.

I hear people say I'm not even a fan of Taylor Swift but I believe in her

:46:35.:46:42.

cause, so it transcended her as a star and came down to the issue of a

:46:43.:46:46.

woman has a right to go after someone who sexually assaulted her,

:46:47.:46:51.

and she was assaulted. And the latest inflation figures have come

:46:52.:47:01.

out, showing living costs which are used to set rail season ticket

:47:02.:47:09.

prices rose to 3.6% in July outstripping growth in pay packets.

:47:10.:47:16.

Ben Thompson is here. Yes, it is more than average earnings. We are

:47:17.:47:22.

told rail fares will rise by more than 3.6% and it is more than double

:47:23.:47:26.

the increase we had last year, so again the pressure is on real

:47:27.:47:30.

commuters who will feel this more than most. We should be clear that

:47:31.:47:35.

this is what's known as regulated fares, the ones which are limited.

:47:36.:47:40.

The rail companies have a cap on how much they can charge. The

:47:41.:47:46.

unregulated fares will be determined in September, but 3.6% increase from

:47:47.:48:00.

January. It is known as the RPI measure, used to determine the train

:48:01.:48:04.

fares. The CPR measure, which we pay attention to to get a better view of

:48:05.:48:09.

what's happening in the economy, that rose by 2.6%, still well above

:48:10.:48:15.

what we are earning so we will feel worse off in our pockets and our

:48:16.:48:20.

money is going less far. Rail lobby groups are now saying you should be

:48:21.:48:25.

using the lower one, not the higher one. That is not fair to rail

:48:26.:48:32.

commuters. But nonetheless, as it stands at 3.6% rise in rail fares

:48:33.:48:36.

for passengers from January. Thank you.

:48:37.:48:39.

The government has been setting out its plans for the future

:48:40.:48:41.

It's been focusing on a temporary customs union which could be put

:48:42.:48:45.

in place to help prevent chaos at Britain's borders

:48:46.:48:48.

My colleague Adam Fleming explains how the customs union

:48:49.:48:51.

works at the moment and how that might change.

:48:52.:48:57.

Under the customs union, the EU has won external border for the import

:48:58.:49:01.

of goods from abroad. If import taxes - known as tariffs -

:49:02.:49:14.

are paid, they're paid when that It can then move around

:49:15.:49:17.

between countries with no further The British Government wants

:49:18.:49:20.

something as similar as possible to this arrangement for a temporary

:49:21.:49:24.

period after Brexit in March 2019. So how could a future customs union

:49:25.:49:27.

between the UK and Europe look and how does the government

:49:28.:49:30.

see it working? Our political correspondent

:49:31.:49:32.

Emma Vardy has more. David Davis has been speaking,

:49:33.:49:41.

hasn't he? That's right, David Davis will be sitting down in Brussels to

:49:42.:49:44.

negotiate this at the end of this month and he has talked about the

:49:45.:49:48.

option of this interim customs union being as close as possible to the

:49:49.:49:53.

current arrangements. He says that is to prevent this cliff edge for

:49:54.:49:58.

business, to allow them to adjust to any new regulations. So how long

:49:59.:50:02.

might it take he was asked this morning, said it was hard to say,

:50:03.:50:07.

maybe around two years, may be shorter. But that's all very well,

:50:08.:50:18.

this is the UK setting out what it once, how are we going to persuade

:50:19.:50:21.

the EU to agree to it? David Davis said it is as much in their interest

:50:22.:50:22.

as it is in ours. We sell about 230 billion euros

:50:23.:50:32.

of goods and services I was in Bavaria two

:50:33.:50:34.

or three weeks ago. They sell BMWs, electronic goods,

:50:35.:50:39.

they have got an incredibly strong interest in something like this

:50:40.:50:42.

so there's an interest on both sides of not doing each

:50:43.:50:45.

other harm, if you like. Both to do with customs arrangements

:50:46.:50:47.

but also to do with having a free So you see his argument that if

:50:48.:50:59.

there is an interruption in trade, it hurts everyone. He will have to

:51:00.:51:04.

negotiate this, but this is one set of papers, proposals we will be

:51:05.:51:09.

getting, many more to come but it's taken a year since the referendum to

:51:10.:51:13.

start to get a clearer picture of what the UK foresees in Brexit in

:51:14.:51:19.

2019, and what we are getting today is a real strong indication of the

:51:20.:51:25.

size of the challenge ahead. Thank you, Emma.

:51:26.:51:26.

We can speak now to Stephen Booth, who's the director of policy

:51:27.:51:29.

and research at thinktank, Open Europe, Dr Swati Dhingra, from

:51:30.:51:32.

the London School of Economics - both of whom have carried out

:51:33.:51:34.

Welcome, both of you. Is this as much in their interests as ours,

:51:35.:51:44.

Stephen? Yes, I think so. The question is on what terms do we

:51:45.:51:50.

reach a new agreement. I think the Government acknowledges that at

:51:51.:51:53.

least in the short-term period we are going to want to keep things are

:51:54.:51:58.

similar to the status quo as possible. That helps business,

:51:59.:52:02.

business only has two are just once to a new regime at the end of the

:52:03.:52:06.

transition period, and the EU would rather have one negotiation about a

:52:07.:52:11.

new arrangement as opposed to two negotiations about what we do for

:52:12.:52:17.

the next three years and what we do after that. But is it delaying the

:52:18.:52:25.

inevitable, Swati? What it doesn't do is ask the real question, which

:52:26.:52:31.

is after those few years what is the new arrangement going to look like.

:52:32.:52:36.

There's a big concern that customs union or no customs union is going

:52:37.:52:41.

to make no difference to things like services, telecoms, and tariffs

:52:42.:52:49.

don't matter there. It is very little in today's's report about

:52:50.:52:54.

that. What David Davis has said this morning about what would come after

:52:55.:52:58.

a transition period is either a highly streamlined border with the

:52:59.:53:02.

EU or a new partnership with no customs border at all, which sounds

:53:03.:53:08.

like having your cake and eating it, doesn't it? I think the first option

:53:09.:53:12.

sounds more achievable and practical. The second one is

:53:13.:53:18.

unprecedented and untested, and I think it is complicated to

:53:19.:53:20.

administer because businesses will have to work out whether their

:53:21.:53:28.

growth are destined for the UK or EU market. So describe away a

:53:29.:53:35.

streamlined border can work, because obviously for there to be easy

:53:36.:53:39.

transactions between the EU and the UK, products have to comply with

:53:40.:53:44.

regulations across different boundaries and that then takes you

:53:45.:53:48.

into the territory of things being enforced by the ECJ so it's quite

:53:49.:53:57.

difficult to unpick one part. There are examples of this around the

:53:58.:54:04.

world. It's about reducing technology, the amount of paperwork

:54:05.:54:07.

needed, moving away from physical tracks at the border to electronic

:54:08.:54:12.

checks so things can be preapproved. 99% of goods that come to the UK

:54:13.:54:18.

from outside the EU are already preapproved in seconds so a lot of

:54:19.:54:21.

this is possible but it requires both sides to negotiate this. The UK

:54:22.:54:26.

cannot do this unilaterally. At the moment we don't know what the EU

:54:27.:54:30.

side of the table once from the border, what do they want to

:54:31.:54:35.

enforce? How do you see it working, Swati? I think it will be

:54:36.:54:42.

cumbersome. When we look at the Norway example, we know that Norway

:54:43.:54:47.

still faces about 8% of its import value going into paperwork to be

:54:48.:54:51.

able to comply with rules and regulations to enter the UK market

:54:52.:54:54.

so it won't be very different from that. If anything Norway is in the

:54:55.:54:59.

single market so it probably has better access than what we can

:55:00.:55:03.

expect to have. Those who want the UK out of the customs union say the

:55:04.:55:09.

downside is that we cannot have trade deals with the rest of the

:55:10.:55:13.

world while we are in it. Is there enough of an upside to mitigate the

:55:14.:55:18.

downside of leaving? That is the question that only really time will

:55:19.:55:21.

tell but politically once you've taken the decision to leave the

:55:22.:55:25.

European Union and have an independent trade policy, because we

:55:26.:55:29.

will be out of the EU common trade policy, we will have the flexibility

:55:30.:55:33.

to negotiate our own deals and whatever you think about the Brexit

:55:34.:55:37.

decision, the logic of it is you have to boost the trade with the

:55:38.:55:40.

rest of the world and increase and diversify away from the EU which

:55:41.:55:44.

means the UK will have to have as many tools in its tool box in order

:55:45.:55:48.

to negotiate with other partners and that means having more flexibility.

:55:49.:55:53.

We won't have all of that for the first three years but the Government

:55:54.:55:58.

needs to make sure we have it after 2022. How do you see the position?

:55:59.:56:06.

It is unlikely we will be able to make up the losses from other

:56:07.:56:11.

countries. China and India, the rules and regulations are very

:56:12.:56:14.

different. Opening our markets to them will be very big in terms of

:56:15.:56:19.

what happens to consumer safety, product safety. Dealing with the US,

:56:20.:56:24.

the same kind of concerns come up as we saw in the chlorine chicken

:56:25.:56:29.

debate. This is a good idea to have, but there are games we will get from

:56:30.:56:33.

these new trade deals which will be small compared to what we lose from

:56:34.:56:38.

the EU if we don't get a good trade deal there. To have the sort of

:56:39.:56:44.

freedom of movement that there is within the European Union, we still

:56:45.:56:49.

have to be bound by the health and safety regulations that we are

:56:50.:56:54.

currently bound by, don't we? Largely, we would probably have to

:56:55.:56:58.

comply with those. If you look at what Canada did with the European

:56:59.:57:02.

Union, they went through a lot of regulations they were happy to

:57:03.:57:06.

harmonise or mutually recognise, but then many others would have to be

:57:07.:57:10.

designed for the European market. When we sell to the US we would have

:57:11.:57:18.

a different set of regulations. So all of these things will still be

:57:19.:57:23.

applicable to UK businesses. Thank you. I just want to bring you an

:57:24.:57:29.

update on what is happening at Hogan Tube station. The press office for

:57:30.:57:34.

Transport for London has said the fire at Holborn Tube station is

:57:35.:57:43.

Julie to a fault on the train. They have ruled out terrorism as a cause.

:57:44.:57:49.

It is worth noting that last week there was a small fire on an

:57:50.:57:54.

underground train at Oxford Circus station that was on the Bakerloo

:57:55.:57:59.

line train. That was caused by an electrical fault under the train.

:58:00.:58:05.

The pictures at the time looks pretty dramatic of smoke in a train

:58:06.:58:09.

carriage. Four people treated for smoke inhalation and we don't have

:58:10.:58:13.

details of whether anyone has been affected by smoke inhalation in this

:58:14.:58:17.

latest incident at Holborn but we will keep you up-to-date. The

:58:18.:58:21.

important thing to note is it is not being treated as suspicious.

:58:22.:58:27.

Denzil Lush says people should be far more aware of the risks

:58:28.:58:33.

of a power of attorney, which is a legal document allowing

:58:34.:58:36.

someone to make welfare or financial decisions on your behalf,

:58:37.:58:38.

Right now let's catch up with the latest weather update.

:58:39.:58:47.

It's going to be a lovely day if you like sunshine and showers. If we

:58:48.:58:54.

take a look around the country, you will see some of the weather

:58:55.:59:00.

watchers' pictures from earlier. This is Kent, Ramsgate. As we move

:59:01.:59:04.

across the country, we can see showers. We have the rainbow in

:59:05.:59:09.

Hertfordshire, and a more current picture, this one sent in from

:59:10.:59:13.

Durham with lovely blue skies. We are looking at a day of sunshine and

:59:14.:59:18.

showers, we will lose the rain from Kent this morning. We could see 26

:59:19.:59:29.

Celsius here through the day, but you can also see a lot of dry and

:59:30.:59:32.

sunny weather as we sweep into south-west England. For Wales, again

:59:33.:59:35.

some showers, they will be fewer and further between but more frequent

:59:36.:59:39.

across Northern Ireland and possibly more heavy here as well, but

:59:40.:59:42.

nonetheless still a lot of dry weather. A lot of dry weather across

:59:43.:59:47.

Scotland but you will have more frequent showers, some will be heavy

:59:48.:59:53.

and thundery. In north-east England, heading down the eastern side of the

:59:54.:59:57.

Pennines you can see a mixture of sunshine and showers but some of

:59:58.:00:00.

those showers could be heavy. Through the evening and overnight

:00:01.:00:05.

the showers tend to fade and we are looking at clearing skies, a cooler

:00:06.:00:08.

night than the one just gone but by the end of the night we will have

:00:09.:00:11.

stronger winds and rain arriving into the west of Northern Ireland.

:00:12.:00:17.

That's courtesy of this area of low pressure with its weather front. The

:00:18.:00:20.

squeeze on the isobars is telling you it will be windy. Gale is

:00:21.:00:25.

possible through the Irish Sea and with exposure in the west. The rain

:00:26.:00:30.

is coming in smartly across Northern Ireland and also Scotland, but not

:00:31.:00:34.

as quickly across north-west England, Wales and into south-west

:00:35.:00:38.

England. Where we have this combination with lower temperatures,

:00:39.:00:42.

it will feel cooler, the coolness exacerbated by the rain and wind,

:00:43.:00:46.

but as we drift east, increasing amounts of cloud ahead of this

:00:47.:00:52.

weather front. The further east you travel, the more likely you are to

:00:53.:00:56.

see some sunshine with temperatures up to 23. As we move into Thursday,

:00:57.:01:01.

that rain crosses us overnight. We have the remnants during Thursday,

:01:02.:01:08.

then it's replaced once again by sunshine and showers. Showers fairly

:01:09.:01:11.

hit and miss, not everyone will catch one. If you are in the

:01:12.:01:16.

sunshine, high temperatures up to 24 in London, will feel quite pleasant,

:01:17.:01:20.

as in Newcastle with high temperatures of 21.

:01:21.:01:36.

as in Newcastle with high temperatures of 21. Member jurors

:01:37.:01:44.

temperatures down a touch, it will feel that much cooler. As for the

:01:45.:01:49.

weekend, mixed fortunes, as you come further south, looking at sunshine

:01:50.:01:52.

and showers, a bit more rain showers in the north of the country, if you

:01:53.:01:57.

are wondering about Sunday, the forecast changing but at the moment

:01:58.:02:00.

looks like for Northern Ireland, Scotland, northern England and North

:02:01.:02:04.

Wales, we will see some rain but try as we push further south!

:02:05.:02:10.

Hello, it's Tuesday, it's ten o'clock, I'm Joanna Gosling

:02:11.:02:12.

We hear more from the man who was Chloe Ayling's agent

:02:13.:02:17.

when the model was drugged and kidnapped in Milan.

:02:18.:02:19.

Phil Green says she is coping well after her traumatic ordeal.

:02:20.:02:25.

She clearly had gone through a tremendous amount of suffering and

:02:26.:02:31.

had an horrific ordeal and I know that if that had happened to 95% of

:02:32.:02:36.

the other models in my agency they would have crumbled.

:02:37.:02:38.

You can hear the second part of our interview later this hour.

:02:39.:02:43.

Also we speak to a retired judge who says it's too risky just giving one

:02:44.:02:50.

person power of attorney which allows them to make welfare or

:02:51.:02:52.

financial decisions on your behalf. Taylor Swift has won her

:02:53.:02:54.

case against the former We hear from an American journalist

:02:55.:02:56.

who sat through the court case and says this is a win

:02:57.:03:00.

for all women. She stood up for herself, not just

:03:01.:03:11.

for herself and women in general and that is what she spoke to, she

:03:12.:03:15.

maintained that stands and you could tell she was up there not just

:03:16.:03:18.

speaking for herself but to show women out there it's OK to stand up

:03:19.:03:25.

for what you believe in. We've also hear from a lawyer in this country

:03:26.:03:29.

who hopes it will empower more women in this country to speak out.

:03:30.:03:37.

Here's Rachel in the BBC Newsroom with a summary of todays news.

:03:38.:03:44.

The government is to outline plans to negotiate a temporary customs

:03:45.:03:49.

relationship with the EU after Brexit. The mistress want to ensure

:03:50.:03:54.

an arrangement similar to the current customs union will remain in

:03:55.:03:57.

place until a final trade settlement takes effect. Be you commission says

:03:58.:04:01.

the move is a positive step towards a starting phase one of the

:04:02.:04:05.

negotiations. And they will study the position paper carefully. The

:04:06.:04:10.

Brexit secretary David Davis says it means businesses will avoid

:04:11.:04:11.

unnecessary disruption. We sell about 230 billion euros of

:04:12.:04:19.

goods and services to the European Union each year, they sell 290

:04:20.:04:28.

billion to us. I was in Bavaria 200 -- I was in Bavaria a couple of

:04:29.:04:33.

weeks ago, they sell Alex on goods and they have an incredibly strong

:04:34.:04:36.

interest in something like this, there is an interest in both sides

:04:37.:04:40.

on not doing it the hard, both to do with customs arrangements and to do

:04:41.:04:43.

with having a free trade area in the first place.

:04:44.:04:44.

Mudslides and floods in Sierra Leone are now known to have killed more

:04:45.:04:47.

than 300 people on the outskirts of the capital, Freetown.

:04:48.:04:49.

Thousands more have been forced to flee from their homes.

:04:50.:04:52.

Government officials have warned the number of casualties

:04:53.:04:54.

is expected to rise, with hundreds of bodies thought to

:04:55.:04:56.

The mayor of Freetown says at least 270 bodies have

:04:57.:05:00.

Millions of rail users will see a 3.6% increase in many rail

:05:01.:05:10.

Train operators are allowed to raise regulated fares -

:05:11.:05:19.

which account for nearly half of all tickets - by as much

:05:20.:05:22.

as the Retail Prices Index figure for July, which rose by 3.6%.

:05:23.:05:25.

The headline Consumer Price Index inflation was 2.6% in

:05:26.:05:27.

A train has partially derailed at Waterloo station in London,

:05:28.:05:35.

The South West Trains service struck a freight train at low

:05:36.:05:40.

speed between Waterloo and Vauxhall stations.

:05:41.:05:42.

Three people were checked for injuries, but did not

:05:43.:05:44.

Thirteen platforms are out of use, with disruption excepted to last

:05:45.:05:48.

In a separate incident a train has hit the buffers

:05:49.:05:58.

A spokesperson from Great Northern said the train came into contact

:05:59.:06:02.

with the buffers at low speed at twenty past six this morning.

:06:03.:06:05.

The Rail Accident Investigation Branch has been informed.

:06:06.:06:18.

London's Holborn Underground station has been closed as emergency

:06:19.:06:23.

services respond to a fire alert and reports of smoke. Ten firefighters

:06:24.:06:28.

and two engines presented to the station, an eyewitness on a train at

:06:29.:06:32.

the station said smoke-filled one of the characters. Transport for London

:06:33.:06:36.

said the problem was caused by a defective train. -- smoke-filled one

:06:37.:06:42.

of the carriages. A pensioner who was stabbed

:06:43.:06:43.

while trying to save the life of the Labour MP,

:06:44.:06:46.

Jo Cox, has died. Bernard Kenny, who was 79,

:06:47.:06:48.

was awarded the George Medal for his bravery -

:06:49.:06:50.

after he intervened when a right-wing extremist attacked

:06:51.:06:52.

the MP in the run-up to last Mr Kenny was seriously

:06:53.:06:55.

injured in the attack, but the cause of his death is not

:06:56.:06:58.

believed to be related A girl has died after a man drove

:06:59.:07:01.

a car into a pizza restaurant Twelve other people

:07:02.:07:05.

were injured in the attack, Police said they're treating

:07:06.:07:08.

the incident as deliberate, The driver of the car, a 32-year-old

:07:09.:07:11.

man, has been arrested. Iran says it could abandon

:07:12.:07:16.

its nuclear deal with world powers "within hours",

:07:17.:07:19.

if the United States continues President Hassan Rouhani told

:07:20.:07:21.

the country's parliament. The deal which was struck in 2015

:07:22.:07:24.

saw the lifting of most international sanctions in return

:07:25.:07:27.

for curbs on its nuclear programme. The pop star Taylor Swift has won

:07:28.:07:41.

a sexual assault case against ex-radio DJ David Mueller,

:07:42.:07:44.

who she said had groped His claim for damages,

:07:45.:07:46.

on the grounds that his reputation had been destroyed by false

:07:47.:07:53.

allegations, was thrown out. He's been ordered to pay a token

:07:54.:07:56.

one-dollar in damages. Taylor Swift said she took

:07:57.:07:59.

the action against him to give other victims of sexual assault

:08:00.:08:03.

the confidence to The fat outfit theory that

:08:04.:08:18.

overweight people can still be healthy is nothing but is according

:08:19.:08:24.

to researchers from two top UK universities. Scientists from

:08:25.:08:28.

Cambridge and Imperial College London found being obese or

:08:29.:08:31.

overweight increases your risk of coronary heart disease by 28% even

:08:32.:08:34.

if you are otherwise healthy and act.

:08:35.:08:40.

That's a summary of the latest BBC News - more at 10.30.

:08:41.:08:52.

Still to come, we will hear from Phil Green, the agent of the model

:08:53.:09:00.

Chloe Aileen who was kidnapped and taken to Italy.

:09:01.:09:05.

Liverpool are hoping to rip reach the group stages of the Champions

:09:06.:09:15.

League for the first time in three years. They are in Germany this

:09:16.:09:19.

evening and Jurgen Klopp has made it clear the match tonight is the only

:09:20.:09:23.

thing on his mind and not the future of the leak could you. They've

:09:24.:09:28.

bazillion is a target for Barcelona but Liverpool have rejected two bids

:09:29.:09:34.

for him before Coutinho submitted a transfer request which was

:09:35.:09:37.

dismissed. He didn't play at the weekend because of a back injury and

:09:38.:09:40.

the manager says he knows speculation is rife but his sole

:09:41.:09:45.

focus is on the game ahead. I really understand everybody is interested

:09:46.:09:50.

in this but I can't say I am really thinking about it. It's just, I am

:09:51.:09:57.

here, but I am not in the car, on the way to the Conference, I did not

:09:58.:10:00.

think what could I say if they ask or whatever because I have to think

:10:01.:10:05.

about other things. It's understood Diego Costa has been ordered to

:10:06.:10:08.

return to the Premier League champions after being fined for

:10:09.:10:11.

failing to report for pre-season training. He was told by the

:10:12.:10:16.

miniature fire text in June that he wasn't part of his plans this

:10:17.:10:18.

season, the striker currently in Brazil, threatening to sit out the

:10:19.:10:22.

remaining two years of his contract if he is not allowed to leave. The

:10:23.:10:27.

Spanish international is considering legal action and has his heart set

:10:28.:10:31.

on returning to Atletico Madrid although Chelsea are demanding his

:10:32.:10:34.

return before any decision on his future is made. Premier League clubs

:10:35.:10:39.

are to take a vote on the idea of closing the transfer window before

:10:40.:10:41.

the start of the season. The window runs until August 31, it's been a

:10:42.:10:47.

problem this season with the future of several high-profile players on

:10:48.:10:50.

results. Under the proposals are new league sides would not be able to

:10:51.:10:54.

add to their squads once the season kicks off but it wouldn't apply to

:10:55.:10:57.

clubs from Europe signing players from England. If it is past it would

:10:58.:11:02.

come into effect next season. Kyle Edmund continues to struggle in the

:11:03.:11:06.

build-up to the US Open, beaten in the first round of the Cincinnati

:11:07.:11:11.

Masters by a Portuguese opponent in three sets. He was knocked out of

:11:12.:11:14.

the first-round of the Montreal Masters last week. The final Grand

:11:15.:11:17.

Slam of the year begins at the end the month. Andy Murray will be

:11:18.:11:23.

replaced as the World War I by Rafael Nadal at the end of the

:11:24.:11:27.

tournament this week. Andy Murray is not playing because of an ongoing

:11:28.:11:30.

problem, the Spaniard will top the world rankings for the first time in

:11:31.:11:34.

three years. England cricketers stepped into the unknown this week

:11:35.:11:37.

when they play their first day night Test match, the first played in this

:11:38.:11:43.

country. The opening series against the West Indies. The 2pm on

:11:44.:11:47.

Thursday, lunch at 4pm, plate finishing at 9pm. The game will be

:11:48.:11:51.

played with a pink box showing up at under the lights, a new experience

:11:52.:11:58.

for bowler Stuart broad. The pink ball county round, the guys said the

:11:59.:12:02.

ball went quite soft quite quickly, we are just going to have to be so

:12:03.:12:07.

adaptable on the day. We are going in with a completely clear mind,

:12:08.:12:11.

completely learning on the job, almost. The team that will, more

:12:12.:12:16.

successful this week is the team that reacts quicker. And that is all

:12:17.:12:23.

your support for now. I will be back with more later. Thank you so much.

:12:24.:12:26.

Power of attorney is a legal document that allows someone else

:12:27.:12:29.

to look after your property and financial affairs.

:12:30.:12:30.

It's increasingly common - used especially by older

:12:31.:12:32.

people who can no longer manage their everyday lives.

:12:33.:12:34.

Nearly 650,000 applications were made last year in England

:12:35.:12:37.

and Wales to register powers of attorney ...

:12:38.:12:38.

But the judge who wrote the legal guidebook to powers of attorney,

:12:39.:12:43.

who was the head of the court of protection for 20 years,

:12:44.:12:47.

has told the BBC he would never sign one himself, they have few

:12:48.:12:50.

safeguards, and the ministry of justice is "disingenuous"

:12:51.:12:52.

Let's speak now to Today Programme correspondent Sanchia Berg who's

:12:53.:13:01.

Tell us more about this, it is extraordinary when the judge Europe

:13:02.:13:20.

and says he wouldn't have won. He says there are a few safeguards,

:13:21.:13:27.

although there is the office of the public partying, part of the

:13:28.:13:29.

Ministry of Justice which investigates complaints they will

:13:30.:13:32.

only investigate once someone alerts on to something. Dental luxury for

:13:33.:13:39.

20 years presided over more than 6000 of these ensuring our lasting

:13:40.:13:43.

power of attorney cases, he has seen many examples where problems arose

:13:44.:13:48.

and they just weren't caught in time and you will hear from a viewer

:13:49.:13:53.

about a problem that went on for years, her father's estate

:13:54.:13:58.

effectively looted and nothing they could do because the complaint were

:13:59.:14:01.

not investigated. Now complaints are more likely to be investigated but

:14:02.:14:05.

nonetheless, the judge believes people should be far more aware of

:14:06.:14:07.

the risks. OK, thank you. Joining us now, Lesley Willetts

:14:08.:14:13.

and her husband Brian Felton have experienced the problems

:14:14.:14:16.

of the Power of Attorney themselves. Lesley's father, a Dunkirk veteran

:14:17.:14:18.

with dementia was left destitute after he gave his neighbours

:14:19.:14:20.

power of attorney. Denzil Lush is a senior judge

:14:21.:14:22.

who headed the Court of Protection for 20 years and adjudicated 6,000

:14:23.:14:25.

power of attorney cases. He says the power of

:14:26.:14:28.

attorney has few safeguards Thank you both for joining us.

:14:29.:14:44.

Leslie, it sounds like you had a turbo situation, talk us through

:14:45.:14:49.

what happened to your father and power of attorney was given to a

:14:50.:14:54.

neighbour. -- a terrible situation. Basically when the neighbour to

:14:55.:14:58.

guard a power of attorney in 2003 and he had a will made out at the

:14:59.:15:02.

same time it was effectively, we were just literally hard from any

:15:03.:15:09.

protest, any insight into the financial affairs of my father, even

:15:10.:15:13.

his day-to-day care seemed to be lost to us in a sense. And the

:15:14.:15:18.

attorney was able to try and isolate him from our family and also

:15:19.:15:24.

effectively take his money and concealed the fact he had taken the

:15:25.:15:28.

money. He had complete power and there was no further week ago, no

:15:29.:15:32.

one we could ask what do we do about this and was only when he registered

:15:33.:15:38.

the power of attorney in 2004, this was 18 months later, when in effect

:15:39.:15:44.

he had used all my father's savings and in effect he had to sell my

:15:45.:15:51.

father's house, so he had to register the power of attorney for

:15:52.:15:55.

that, our family objected but the registration went through

:15:56.:15:58.

nonetheless but the cause was Yorkshire County Council came on

:15:59.:16:02.

board at the time, they'd had letters of concern by other

:16:03.:16:08.

neighbours that we decided to go for an appeal hearing in 2005. Sorry to

:16:09.:16:14.

interrupt, it's absolutely extraordinary to hear you describe

:16:15.:16:19.

what happened and to hear you say your father's house was being sold

:16:20.:16:24.

under him and up until that point none of you knew what was going on

:16:25.:16:27.

and you were powerless to do anything?

:16:28.:16:35.

And it wasn't until the appeal hearing that we suspected there was

:16:36.:16:41.

financial abuse. We had to prove the unsuitability of the attorney which

:16:42.:16:49.

is incredibly difficult to do. We didn't have any evidence, all we

:16:50.:16:53.

could do was protect ourselves and question why someone can get the

:16:54.:16:58.

power of attorney so easily. Can I just say, at the appeal hearing the

:16:59.:17:03.

attorney was required to submit annual accounts which we were really

:17:04.:17:11.

relieved about, so at least we knew there was some accountability for

:17:12.:17:16.

his finances going on. When you say it was hard to question, well you

:17:17.:17:20.

question why it is that someone can get power of attorney so easily.

:17:21.:17:27.

This was a neighbour. How did it happen? It was literally groom,

:17:28.:17:39.

isolate, abuse. I was groomed, my father was groomed, I think social

:17:40.:17:44.

services were groomed. Once that happened, he was supposed to come

:17:45.:17:51.

down to us in 2003 but he was registered, who was in a

:17:52.:17:54.

psychogeriatric ward at the time. We had arranged to have him discharged

:17:55.:17:58.

to our care but for some reason social services allowed him to be

:17:59.:18:04.

discharged to the neighbour's care, registered them as his carer and

:18:05.:18:08.

within days were taken to a solicitor, had a power of attorney

:18:09.:18:13.

made out and will to his benefit. So this was someone you had all trusted

:18:14.:18:23.

absolutely? Yes, well I so. Will bring in Denzel. You adjudicated

:18:24.:18:33.

over 6000 cases in that period where there have been issues and you now

:18:34.:18:37.

say you would not use one yourself. Tell us more about your concerns.

:18:38.:18:45.

Yes, I would prefer not to use one myself because I would rather go for

:18:46.:18:52.

the default position, which is where the court appoints somebody to look

:18:53.:18:56.

after a deputy to look after your property, and you are required to

:18:57.:19:02.

account annually. You have to give a security bond which is a sort of

:19:03.:19:07.

insurance policy that covers only default, and usually get a visit and

:19:08.:19:12.

support from the office of the Public Guardian. Servers that

:19:13.:19:15.

effectively how it used to work and how you would prefer for it to

:19:16.:19:20.

continue working in your case? What's happened in Frank Willet's

:19:21.:19:29.

case would not happen to quite the same extent now. This was an

:19:30.:19:33.

enduring power of attorney, they have since been replaced in effect

:19:34.:19:38.

by things called lasting powers of attorney. The office of the public

:19:39.:19:44.

Guardian tends to initiate applications to the Court of

:19:45.:19:51.

Protection rather than relatives to where they are concerned that has

:19:52.:20:01.

been some misappropriation. In your experience of looking at these, have

:20:02.:20:06.

you seen many instances of where it has worked really well? Because

:20:07.:20:11.

obviously there are people who are vulnerable, they cannot manage their

:20:12.:20:15.

affairs, family and loved ones need to work out a way of doing it in the

:20:16.:20:22.

best way they can. Of course. I sort your liver pathology, if you are

:20:23.:20:27.

with me. I saw the cases where they all went pear shaped which is

:20:28.:20:31.

possibly why I wouldn't make one myself. I'm sure there are many

:20:32.:20:37.

cases, the majority of cases where these do work satisfactorily. Is

:20:38.:20:41.

there a way the system could be made better? Because you are saying you

:20:42.:20:45.

would opt out of this particular way of handling affairs. Is it time for

:20:46.:20:52.

everybody to actually look to another direction? Or can this

:20:53.:20:58.

system be improved? Because as it stands it has to be a case of where

:20:59.:21:02.

not only something has gone wrong but it has been discovered and you

:21:03.:21:06.

can prove what's happened and that takes a lot of time, expense and

:21:07.:21:12.

heartbreak. I think things can be improved. I think the office of the

:21:13.:21:19.

Public Guardian is looking into the possibility of possibly a security

:21:20.:21:22.

bond to cover attorney ships where there is a default position. Also,

:21:23.:21:32.

in the Republic of Ireland they have a state-of-the-art piece of

:21:33.:21:35.

legislation which requires attorneys to produce accounts to their

:21:36.:21:38.

equivalent of the Public Guardian each year. When you hear Leslie

:21:39.:21:45.

describing what happened, that the neighbour could get power of

:21:46.:21:49.

attorney so easily, what do you think? It is surely not beyond the

:21:50.:21:54.

realms of possibility is to stop that happening? Just make it harder?

:21:55.:22:07.

This is one of the big concerns, that the Public Guardian is keen to

:22:08.:22:14.

get as many possible lasting power of attorney applications done online

:22:15.:22:18.

and digitally and there are concerns that what existing safeguards there

:22:19.:22:23.

are are being dampened down all the time.

:22:24.:22:33.

So it could easily be the case that anyone watching this programme with

:22:34.:22:39.

a vulnerable relative could give power of attorney to somebody who

:22:40.:22:45.

may not do the right thing by them or their family, there's nothing to

:22:46.:22:51.

stop that happening? Yes, that is possible. One of the interesting

:22:52.:22:58.

things as well is Leslie's Father's case was a little unusual insofar as

:22:59.:23:03.

in my experience it is family members that are usually the

:23:04.:23:09.

abusers. I remember going to a conference in Melbourne, Australia.

:23:10.:23:16.

And they came up with... The university did some research saying

:23:17.:23:20.

you are twice as likely to be ripped off by your son as your daughter and

:23:21.:23:24.

I thought that was fascinating, and I came back and looked at my own

:23:25.:23:28.

statistics which run into many hundreds and more than that. And I

:23:29.:23:36.

worked out that 68% of the abusers of lasting Powers of attorney are

:23:37.:23:41.

the child, the donor, the person who created the power, of those 36% are

:23:42.:23:50.

sons, 22% are daughters, and the Remainer are sons and daughters

:23:51.:23:56.

together. Leslie, a final for from you because people watching will be

:23:57.:24:00.

horrified to find out what happened to you and if they have vulnerable

:24:01.:24:05.

relatives they are concerned about, they could be worried about what

:24:06.:24:08.

might potentially happen to them. After what you have been through,

:24:09.:24:14.

what advice would you give? To be honest, I don't know. There's no

:24:15.:24:19.

where people can go to get independent advice. Once you get

:24:20.:24:22.

entangled with the Court of Protection, it is very hard to

:24:23.:24:28.

manoeuvre your way around it and it can become extremely expensive. Can

:24:29.:24:37.

I mention one thing that judge Lush is bringing up, about juicing

:24:38.:24:42.

accounts. My father 's attorney was ordered to produce accounts on an

:24:43.:24:51.

annual basis and he duly did in 2005 and 2006, but when I became court

:24:52.:24:56.

deputy in 2008 when the attorney ship was finally revoked, it was

:24:57.:25:00.

obvious within days that the Court accounts review team had ignored

:25:01.:25:05.

gross breaches of their own rules and regulations. I mean my father's

:25:06.:25:16.

proceeds from his house sales... Lots of complex things were

:25:17.:25:19.

happening, how much was lost in the end and how much has it cost you?

:25:20.:25:25.

Everything was lost. We have actually High Court orders, one

:25:26.:25:30.

overturned the will and the other was a High Court order that was

:25:31.:25:36.

380,000, now stands at more because there's an 8% interest rate added to

:25:37.:25:42.

it, but do we get anything back? So far not and I'm not terribly

:25:43.:25:47.

helpful. The Court of Protection we are still fighting because they

:25:48.:25:51.

refuse to accept accountability. Thank you, Leslie, very much for

:25:52.:25:58.

joining us and is talking about your family's situation.

:25:59.:26:04.

In a statement a Ministry of Justice spokesperson said:

:26:05.:26:06.

"Safeguarding vulnerable people is our priority.

:26:07.:26:08.

We take swift action if any abuse is reported and have a zero

:26:09.:26:11.

tolerance approach to any attorney or deputy who breaks the law.

:26:12.:26:13.

If there is evidence that someone has abused their position,

:26:14.:26:16.

we can refer cases to the Court of Protection to urgently revoke

:26:17.:26:19.

a lasting power of attorney or deputyship order."

:26:20.:26:26.

Let us know if you have had any experience of this, good or bad.

:26:27.:26:31.

We hear the second part of our exclusive interview

:26:32.:26:34.

Phil Green the agent of Chloe Ayling the model kidnapped

:26:35.:26:37.

He talks about how she reacted to the ordeal.

:26:38.:26:55.

Taylor Swift has won a sexual assault case

:26:56.:26:58.

against a former radio DJ, who she said had groped her

:26:59.:27:01.

David Mueller from Colorado had originally tried to sue the American

:27:02.:27:05.

singer-songwriter saying her claims had cost him his

:27:06.:27:07.

David Mueller from Colorado had originally tried to sue the American

:27:08.:27:10.

singer-songwriter saying her claims had cost him his

:27:11.:27:12.

Taylor was awarded a symbolic one dollar in damages,

:27:13.:27:15.

because she wanted to highlight the issue women are

:27:16.:27:17.

interactive show 'Daily Blast Live' was in court.

:27:18.:27:26.

When the verdict came, she was very happy. What had she been like

:27:27.:27:37.

throughout the hearings? She testified last Thursday and she was

:27:38.:27:41.

very fierce, that's the way I would describe her. She was very

:27:42.:27:45.

confident, unwavering in her stance, and I know the attorney of David

:27:46.:27:52.

Mueller was trying to get her to appear weak. It is her job to make

:27:53.:27:57.

her get flustered or say things differently to try to prove her case

:27:58.:28:01.

but she maintained her stance. I don't know what I can say on this

:28:02.:28:07.

programme, but she did not use the word rear end and she made sure to

:28:08.:28:11.

use profanity each time because she wanted it to be vulgar. She didn't

:28:12.:28:16.

want it to be polite. She maintained that what happened to her was not

:28:17.:28:21.

polite and she needed to stand up for herself, not just for herself

:28:22.:28:25.

but for women in general and that's what she spoke to and she maintained

:28:26.:28:29.

that stance. You could tell she was up there not just speaking for

:28:30.:28:34.

herself but to show women out there that it is OK to stand up for what

:28:35.:28:39.

you believe in and not have anyone tried to waver and say you were

:28:40.:28:44.

smiling in this photo in question. Because that did come up. Why are

:28:45.:28:50.

you smiling, acting a certain way? She doesn't have to defend herself

:28:51.:28:55.

and she wasn't going to let anyone tear her down. Did she get emotional

:28:56.:29:02.

at all? On the stands she did not, she did get emotional when she heard

:29:03.:29:11.

her mother speak or when David Mueller's attorney was speaking

:29:12.:29:14.

saying this photo doesn't show her looking like she has just been

:29:15.:29:19.

groped. Even though she is fierce and confident on the stand, it was

:29:20.:29:21.

still something that was very emotional to her. She did not report

:29:22.:29:27.

this to police when it happened, it ended up in court with her suing him

:29:28.:29:35.

for a symbolic $1 because he was suing her. Through the process

:29:36.:29:40.

though, in the eyes of her fans and other members of the public, has she

:29:41.:29:46.

effectively become a campaigner on this issue? She really has. I have

:29:47.:29:53.

been live tweeting this quite a bit and you usually hear from both sides

:29:54.:29:59.

of someone defending Mueller, someone defending Swift, but you

:30:00.:30:05.

have people saying I believe in her cause even though I am not a fan, so

:30:06.:30:10.

it transcended her as a staff and came down to the issue that a woman

:30:11.:30:14.

has a right to go after someone who sexually assaulted her, and she was

:30:15.:30:19.

assaulted. And she is an influential woman. What reaction has there been?

:30:20.:30:28.

After the jury went out and there was people leaving, and ran into one

:30:29.:30:33.

of her young fans who was there with her mother and had been going to

:30:34.:30:38.

court every day. She was so excited, she felt justice had been served. I

:30:39.:30:42.

noticed the best quality about this little interaction was that this

:30:43.:30:46.

little girl felt empowered. She wasn't afraid of Mueller and she was

:30:47.:30:55.

so happy Swift stood up to that man. You could tell she was taking that

:30:56.:31:01.

in and if, God forbid she is ever in that situation, she felt ready and

:31:02.:31:05.

inspired by the actions of one woman that happened to be Taylor Swift.

:31:06.:31:12.

She has now said she will be donating to organisations in the

:31:13.:31:19.

future to help sexual assault and is defend themselves because she

:31:20.:31:26.

ignored she has -- she acknowledged she has the resources to do that.

:31:27.:31:32.

What else has she said? She hasn't been publicly speaking either in the

:31:33.:31:35.

media or on social media but I believe she intends to go into what

:31:36.:31:42.

organisations she intends to donate to in time, I think she will slowly

:31:43.:31:47.

roll this out at ink she needs to decompress, it was a highly

:31:48.:31:50.

emotional case for her and I know it means a lot to her and I know she

:31:51.:31:55.

wants to formulate a plan, she comes across to me as someone who wants a

:31:56.:31:59.

detailed plan of action and we will know it soon, I don't know whether

:32:00.:32:02.

it's within the next week but it will happen. I mentioned it she did

:32:03.:32:06.

not go to police when this happened four years ago, it was what's been

:32:07.:32:12.

talked about as a low-level sexual assault, someone dropping her under

:32:13.:32:18.

her skirt, what has she said about the impact on her that? The only

:32:19.:32:24.

time she has ever mentioned it, but I have heard, is in Court, when her

:32:25.:32:33.

mother said when she found out, she felt like vomiting and crying at the

:32:34.:32:37.

same time, Taylor Swift has not been the same, the recent she doesn't go

:32:38.:32:40.

into crowds any more and when you see her and

:32:41.:32:47.

you see her at need and greed is, she is there close to her fans. When

:32:48.:32:52.

I was in Court, she looked up and acknowledged me and I am sure she

:32:53.:32:57.

did that to all the people, even if they were media or suppose that

:32:58.:33:00.

fans. They are curious to watch the case. She seemed like a very warm

:33:01.:33:07.

person and to show that she did not want to go out into the crowds, so

:33:08.:33:12.

she would impact one person can have, it's the only time she said

:33:13.:33:15.

she has ever been groped and it still sticks with her to this day.

:33:16.:33:24.

Why didn't she go to the police? The way she described it, it was very

:33:25.:33:30.

quick and there is a meet and greet, fans shuffling in and out within a

:33:31.:33:33.

second, if she would have stopped for one moment to say what happened,

:33:34.:33:40.

that would have destroyed the experience for all those fans, for

:33:41.:33:43.

her, she went and finished what she had to do, a dozen people left and

:33:44.:33:49.

as soon as the line finished she told everyone that was in the room,

:33:50.:33:56.

that crack -- guy totally grabbed my, she used the profanity and they

:33:57.:34:01.

said I know. The photographer looked and saw the photo and her management

:34:02.:34:05.

went and they considered calling the police but they considered the best

:34:06.:34:09.

course of action was to just alert his bosses at the radio station.

:34:10.:34:15.

Thank you. In the last 15 minutes,

:34:16.:34:26.

the government has announced some of the key details about the public

:34:27.:34:29.

inquiry into Grenfell Tower fire. It will look at not just the fire

:34:30.:34:31.

itself but the actions of the local How wide-ranging will it be? We have

:34:32.:34:45.

something from the chairman of the inquiry and the Prime Minister,

:34:46.:34:48.

setting out the terms of reference, we happen waiting for these, the

:34:49.:34:52.

areas they will look into. It includes six, reading through, the

:34:53.:34:55.

cause and spread of the fire, we knew that, we expected that, the

:34:56.:35:00.

design construction and refurbishment of Grenfell Tower, the

:35:01.:35:03.

scope and adequacy of the relevant regulations relating to high-rise

:35:04.:35:08.

buildings across the country, whether relevant legislation and

:35:09.:35:10.

guidance was complied with in the case of Grenfell Tower that will be

:35:11.:35:14.

key. And also, we were not quite sure about this, to Max -- two extra

:35:15.:35:21.

things they have added, the response of the London Fire Brigade and local

:35:22.:35:29.

government and amongst others, and the last elements could be key. Will

:35:30.:35:33.

it satisfy residents who are concerned about what the inquiry

:35:34.:35:37.

will cover? These letters have only been released, campaigners keen this

:35:38.:35:41.

inquiry is as broad as possible, not just looking at the immediate

:35:42.:35:46.

causes, we know if rich freezer caught fire, the cladding, but looks

:35:47.:35:50.

at the wider causes and on the face of it, the statement goes some way

:35:51.:35:55.

towards addressing that. -- a fridge freezer caught fire. The Prime

:35:56.:35:59.

Minister says she is adamant that the wider causes around this will be

:36:00.:36:04.

addressed, she will meet social housing tenants to see what further

:36:05.:36:10.

proposals can be made in due course. -- the Housing Minister will meet

:36:11.:36:14.

local residents. On a first reading this seems to address some of the

:36:15.:36:18.

questions about the fire, not just the immediate cause but the actions

:36:19.:36:20.

crucially of the Council before the blaze. Thank you.

:36:21.:36:32.

Now we return to the extraordinary story of model Chloe Ayling,

:36:33.:36:35.

who jetted off to Milan for what she thought

:36:36.:36:37.

was a photoshoot, but instead was kidnapped and held for six days

:36:38.:36:40.

by Lukasz Herba, a Polish national from Birmingham.

:36:41.:36:42.

She says he told her she was going to be sold into sex slavery then

:36:43.:36:45.

issued a ransom note to a number of people in the UK for her release.

:36:46.:36:49.

One of those was Phil Green, her agent at the time -

:36:50.:36:52.

who had initially booked her on the job with Lukasz -

:36:53.:36:54.

who was posing as a photographer named Andre.

:36:55.:36:56.

In his only BBC interview, Phil Green - that former agent -

:36:57.:36:59.

He praises Chloe's bravery throughout this ordeal

:37:00.:37:02.

and claims she has been offered counselling but has refused

:37:03.:37:04.

despite her now being afraid to go anywhere alone.

:37:05.:37:07.

In the second part of this interview I began by asking Phil what happened

:37:08.:37:10.

It wasn't until the Sunday, this is following the kidnapping

:37:11.:37:14.

on the Tuesday, the Sunday we heard there were some

:37:15.:37:16.

It turns out that in the early hours of Monday morning,

:37:17.:37:20.

the attacker, this Lukasz Herba, walks into the consulate office

:37:21.:37:22.

with Chloe and says I'm her friend, she's the girl who's been kidnapped,

:37:23.:37:25.

Well, the consulate staff immediately rang the police,

:37:26.:37:39.

he was arrested and then Chloe had to face 16 hours...

:37:40.:37:42.

16 hours of questioning by the police, who were

:37:43.:37:46.

I had to say they were insensitive and didn't show much compassion

:37:47.:37:56.

during the time of the interviewing and, in fact, one of the magistrates

:37:57.:38:02.

in Italy who she had to face doubted some of the elements of the story.

:38:03.:38:05.

And openly said to her you're lying, you know?

:38:06.:38:09.

And, of course, it is an amazing story.

:38:10.:38:13.

In fact, when the British police heard that this man had walked

:38:14.:38:20.

into the consulate with the model they thought, hang on a second,

:38:21.:38:24.

it looks like the photographer was kidnapped as well.

:38:25.:38:27.

When she gave me the whole version of events, from being attacked

:38:28.:38:37.

to being released, it did sound amazingly fantastic to be true.

:38:38.:38:40.

Equally so, I always kept staunchly loyal to Chloe, who I represented.

:38:41.:38:52.

She clearly had gone through a tremendous amount

:38:53.:38:58.

of suffering and horrific ordeal, and I know that if that had happened

:38:59.:39:03.

to 95% of the other models in my agency they would have

:39:04.:39:07.

crumbled and not reached a conclusion in this.

:39:08.:39:14.

I feel that she has been incredibly strong -

:39:15.:39:17.

strong willed and strong minded - to try to get through this.

:39:18.:39:21.

She doesn't seem to have been fazed by the ordeal.

:39:22.:39:24.

When it first emerged, we saw pictures quite quickly

:39:25.:39:27.

of her in front of the media with the puppy, looking

:39:28.:39:30.

Well, I know her, I've known her for a year.

:39:31.:39:40.

I don't think I've ever seen her fazed through any situation.

:39:41.:39:44.

But this was a traumatic ordeal, was she not traumatised?

:39:45.:39:48.

My worry was that maybe she was psychologically

:39:49.:39:51.

scarred from this and, indeed, the police in this

:39:52.:39:53.

country said we're going to get her counselling.

:39:54.:39:56.

And I think, you know, it might be a delayed reaction.

:39:57.:40:02.

But certainly right now there is no sign of any

:40:03.:40:04.

The detail of what she went through is distressing,

:40:05.:40:12.

it's shocking, and yet she doesn't seem to have much public sympathy.

:40:13.:40:15.

I understand that, and it really is because of this lapse of time

:40:16.:40:20.

And thank you very much, the Italian police,

:40:21.:40:26.

Certainly Chloe wouldn't have wanted that.

:40:27.:40:32.

When she spoke to me from her hotel room in Milan

:40:33.:40:35.

after the ordeal she said, well, I don't want

:40:36.:40:37.

She said, I'm actually humiliated by it, I don't want people to know

:40:38.:40:41.

I want to just come back to the country and get back

:40:42.:40:46.

to my mum and my dog and just carry on my life.

:40:47.:40:49.

But the Italian police have a strange way of

:40:50.:40:51.

So she never wanted any publicity around this?

:40:52.:40:55.

She gave her evidence at a pre-trial review ten days ago and straight

:40:56.:41:00.

after the pre-trial review the prosecutor then called a meeting

:41:01.:41:04.

with the press in Italy, first of all, and that meeting

:41:05.:41:09.

and that press release brought about attention

:41:10.:41:11.

But she, of course, didn't have to respond to that.

:41:12.:41:17.

She could have stayed quiet about it.

:41:18.:41:20.

She didn't have to respond, but you mention the stories

:41:21.:41:23.

Those stories have come about because the press didn't

:41:24.:41:28.

Even the Italian police were doubting her, don't

:41:29.:41:34.

And it's only now through confirmation from her lawyer that

:41:35.:41:40.

people are now starting to believe that she actually went through this.

:41:41.:41:44.

She doesn't get upset when we talk about it.

:41:45.:42:03.

The only thing we've talked about, and she's said,

:42:04.:42:08.

I'm afraid to go out alone, which she never was.

:42:09.:42:11.

I mean, she used to come up to see me at the agency and travel

:42:12.:42:15.

But now she's said I really don't want to get on a train or any public

:42:16.:42:24.

So that, for me, is the only outward sign I've seen of it

:42:25.:42:28.

She is now making money out of what she went through.

:42:29.:42:36.

That was never the intention and, as I said, she's been called

:42:37.:42:43.

to the press to give her version of events.

:42:44.:42:45.

OK, she's been paid for it, you know...

:42:46.:42:47.

But not just through the press, through public speaking,

:42:48.:42:51.

People will presumably book her now because she is known

:42:52.:42:55.

Well, all her modelling has been cancelled.

:42:56.:43:01.

There hasn't been any topless photo shoots since she got back,

:43:02.:43:03.

She's with an agency now who specialise in public speaking.

:43:04.:43:07.

You know, after all we've been through, a successful year and then

:43:08.:43:17.

the time she spent in Milan, myself paying for her accommodation,

:43:18.:43:20.

her food and expenses, paying for her return flight ticket

:43:21.:43:22.

back, 24 hours after getting back to go and walk into another agent's

:43:23.:43:25.

Do you feel any guilt around the fact that this all happens,

:43:26.:43:38.

She was on your books, she was sent off on this photo shoot

:43:39.:43:44.

You have to feel a little amount of guilt.

:43:45.:43:50.

Would I have done anything different?

:43:51.:43:51.

Again, if the same situation arose, probably not.

:43:52.:43:56.

The same checks have been carried out by my agency

:43:57.:43:59.

on countless hundreds, maybe thousands, of jobs

:44:00.:44:01.

over the last 30 years I've had my agency.

:44:02.:44:05.

And we've never had an incident, we've never had to challenge

:44:06.:44:09.

a client or a photographer who we've sent a model to saying

:44:10.:44:12.

that was inappropriate or, you know, they've never been in danger

:44:13.:44:15.

I think possibly, possibly on future jobs, certainly abroad,

:44:16.:44:26.

I might say to the model if you prefer, maybe think

:44:27.:44:31.

It isn't something the agency offers, it's something we don't

:44:32.:44:39.

have, but if a model wants to take someone with her, maybe

:44:40.:44:42.

And that was to ailing's agent Phil Green talking to me about her

:44:43.:44:56.

ordeal. It has been 70 years since partition

:44:57.:45:14.

between India and Pakistan came into effect. It was the largest mass

:45:15.:45:18.

migration ever recorded, 12 million people on the move across the newly

:45:19.:45:21.

formed borders. Muslim is journeyed to West and East, but and that now

:45:22.:45:28.

forms Pakistan, Hindus and Sikhs headed in the opposite direction,

:45:29.:45:31.

hundreds of thousand of duck did or killed. -- Abdul did.

:45:32.:45:35.

Let's talk now to Vinod Chhabra who fled what is now Pakistan

:45:36.:45:38.

for India when he was nine years old,

:45:39.:45:40.

his cousin Ajay Chhabra and his son Diren.

:45:41.:45:42.

Ajay says partition has lived with his family for decades,

:45:43.:45:44.

Gurinder Chadha who directed films Bend it like Beckham and this year's

:45:45.:45:47.

Viceroys House amongst other joins us from the Wagah border

:45:48.:45:50.

which separates India and Pakistan and has played host to events

:45:51.:45:52.

marking the 70th anniversary, and in Leicester in Professor

:45:53.:45:55.

Gurharpal Singh who has speciliasded in the history of Partition.

:45:56.:46:11.

Thank you for joining us, it's great to have three generations of your

:46:12.:46:17.

family here to talk about what you went through. You were nine when

:46:18.:46:28.

partition happened, what happened? Firstly I want to say happy

:46:29.:46:32.

Independence Day to all of those watching this programme. Luckily it

:46:33.:46:39.

is 50 years today, it is the 15th of August I landed here in England on

:46:40.:46:45.

the 15th and that was one of those days when my uncle brought me from

:46:46.:46:50.

the Heathrow Airport, and from onwards I have been here and in

:46:51.:46:55.

Germany and all around Europe and have been working here. These are

:46:56.:47:02.

the memories I will have to go back, I mean long dark about 60 years. And

:47:03.:47:10.

that is in my childhood. Those are the memories which I personally

:47:11.:47:18.

think are still haunting, sometimes when I think about them. So what do

:47:19.:47:32.

you remember of that time? Precisely I will tell you, because I was

:47:33.:47:38.

around eight or nine. I was not in a school because there were disturbed

:47:39.:47:42.

areas all around and actually we were not regularly going to school.

:47:43.:47:53.

Unfortunately that was... We work in one of the major cities in Pakistan.

:47:54.:48:00.

Sorry to interrupt, literally in an instant your life changed from the

:48:01.:48:05.

ordered life you had known up until that point and suddenly it was gone,

:48:06.:48:11.

how did you cope with that? It changed to some extent that I would

:48:12.:48:14.

say at that time I didn't understand, but then when I grew up,

:48:15.:48:22.

I said how did that happen to our family? The factory and we were

:48:23.:48:37.

living there and asked to leave that place immediately. So you lost

:48:38.:48:46.

everything overnight? At the age I'm talking about, we did not know what

:48:47.:48:51.

was happening tomorrow because we were shifting from that area to a

:48:52.:49:00.

place with military and rifles and everything. They said, don't go up,

:49:01.:49:08.

don't show your faces. That's why it was so scary, we were so small and

:49:09.:49:11.

we didn't know what was happening all around. We have Diren next to

:49:12.:49:23.

you. What do you think when you hear Vinod talking about what he went

:49:24.:49:29.

through at the age you are? It must have been horrible time for him.

:49:30.:49:33.

Since he's my grandfather I know how it feels and I know him. When he

:49:34.:49:39.

left his home, he left everything, he only took the things he really

:49:40.:49:45.

needed. For example, some bedding, the low and some clothes. You

:49:46.:49:50.

wouldn't need your bed frame, your fridge. You would just move and rush

:49:51.:49:54.

out. You would turn on your radio in the morning and here all of a

:49:55.:50:01.

sudden, "Get out of India". You obviously know a lot about it, does

:50:02.:50:10.

your family talk openly about it? Yes, my dad told me when I was eight

:50:11.:50:15.

or nine, and I intend now. I went online and looked at it, how some

:50:16.:50:19.

people still have grandads still living now.

:50:20.:50:34.

Gurinder, this is not something on curriculum is in a commonplace way,

:50:35.:50:48.

how do you see partition? You're absolutely right, the British Empire

:50:49.:50:51.

is rarely taught now in schools and I think the real question is, yes,

:50:52.:50:55.

there were terrible things that happen during partition but what my

:50:56.:51:04.

studio house looks at is the reasons these things happened. I don't think

:51:05.:51:07.

enough people are focusing on the fact it was British policy at that

:51:08.:51:12.

time to have the divide, to make partition happened. People like the

:51:13.:51:17.

family of the guests in the studio and my own family, their concerns

:51:18.:51:21.

didn't really matter at the time when this policy to divide India was

:51:22.:51:26.

being planned by the British, way before 1947. What was your family's

:51:27.:51:38.

situation? My grandmother was in a place, which is now Pakistan, with

:51:39.:51:41.

her five young children, and very similar. One day trucks and there's

:51:42.:51:48.

too much violence and you have to leave so she was put on the trot

:51:49.:51:52.

with her children. They were on a train for three days with no food

:51:53.:51:57.

and water, and couldn't get off the train because there was cholera

:51:58.:52:01.

everywhere. Eventually her milk dried up and her youngest child

:52:02.:52:06.

starved to death and they ended up in a refugee camp for months on end.

:52:07.:52:13.

It is a tragedy for my family, as it is for many people. But I want

:52:14.:52:19.

people to ask questions why it happened, and people are too busy

:52:20.:52:23.

focusing on the trauma of partition and not asking why it happened,

:52:24.:52:27.

because it's a lot to do with the geopolitics at the time between

:52:28.:52:31.

Britain and America, much like we see happening in the world today

:52:32.:52:34.

where suffering is happening with refugees. How do you explain how it

:52:35.:52:54.

happened, professor? I would differ, in that I don't think you can

:52:55.:53:00.

entirely placed the blame on British Raj. The situation in India after

:53:01.:53:05.

the Second World War had become quite ungovernable and from almost a

:53:06.:53:15.

year before the events happened, there was widespread communal

:53:16.:53:25.

rioting. Even in March 1947, many months before the partition actually

:53:26.:53:30.

occurred, Indian politicians and politicians in Punjab were

:53:31.:53:36.

clamouring for the division of the province. So I think in a sense

:53:37.:53:44.

there is a shared blame, and it's not something most academic

:53:45.:53:46.

historians take seriously, but it was solely the responsibility of

:53:47.:53:53.

British government and the colonial administration in India, in

:53:54.:54:00.

particular Mountbatten's decision to advance the transfer of power by

:54:01.:54:15.

several months. Vinod... Sorry to interrupt you but I want to go back

:54:16.:54:23.

to Vinod because I was struck at the beginning by your immediate reaction

:54:24.:54:30.

to say happy Independence Day. When Independence Day came, we didn't

:54:31.:54:38.

know it was happy. One thing I tell you that we went through the trucks,

:54:39.:54:43.

we went through the road, we have seen a train full of dead bodies

:54:44.:54:48.

that we were not allowed to go there. Actually our factory was

:54:49.:54:53.

nearby and I was not allowed to go to the station, which was almost

:54:54.:54:58.

walking distance, and they said no, you shouldn't go there. I could see

:54:59.:55:04.

the blood coming out of those compartments. The people were inside

:55:05.:55:09.

that we didn't know, and we were asking what's happening here. Then

:55:10.:55:15.

we were put into the trucks with my grandmother, grandfather, brother,

:55:16.:55:20.

sister, everybody, into the trucks, and the trucks kept on going, going,

:55:21.:55:27.

going. People walking on the road, people not only walking, they were

:55:28.:55:30.

crying, feeling, there was no water given. Also it was believe you me a

:55:31.:55:44.

terrible experience as a child. The events you are describing are

:55:45.:55:55.

unimaginable. Ajay, its understanding bitterness would

:55:56.:55:58.

trickle through the generations of a family, how do you see it? I don't

:55:59.:56:05.

think... I have grown up in a family where bitterness did not exist, and

:56:06.:56:14.

in fact compassion and the things that hold us together, our cultural

:56:15.:56:18.

values, is the environment in which I grew up in. I speak to other

:56:19.:56:26.

colleagues or friends or family who have had similar experiences. I

:56:27.:56:29.

think that metaphor repeats itself again and again and I think that's

:56:30.:56:34.

the incredible power of that place, of that community. I think our

:56:35.:56:38.

families didn't look back, they looked forward, they had to. As

:56:39.:56:45.

Vinod described, the brutal images that he lives with. For us, for

:56:46.:56:53.

myself it was important to convey some of that to my son because these

:56:54.:56:58.

are the missing pieces of jigsaw in family narratives, you know, history

:56:59.:57:03.

repeats itself and these borders are artificial and it's important we

:57:04.:57:07.

reflect on all of these corners of history in order for our next

:57:08.:57:11.

generation, I suppose, to understand the world a better. So I'm really

:57:12.:57:23.

pleased that Diren has understood this but also that the communities

:57:24.:57:28.

have looked forward and not back. Gurinder, you have been attending

:57:29.:57:34.

events, what has the mood been there? Last night I attended a

:57:35.:57:45.

candlelit vigil at the Wagah border. Normally people come from Pakistan

:57:46.:57:49.

with candles and also from India but sadly last night the Pakistanis

:57:50.:57:54.

weren't allowed permission so just the Indians were there, so that was

:57:55.:57:59.

quite sad. I think one of the things you will find in India, where I am

:58:00.:58:05.

now in Punjab, is there are not a lot of initiatives between people

:58:06.:58:10.

and cultural groups to keep those ties strong, particularly through

:58:11.:58:14.

artists and poets, literature. There are great moves to say that yes, the

:58:15.:58:19.

land might be divided but actually our hearts are not and our culture.

:58:20.:58:26.

Thank you, that is a good point to end the programme on. Thank you,

:58:27.:58:30.

all, for your company. I will see 70 years after the

:58:31.:58:33.

Partition of India, Anita Rani and three other

:58:34.:58:35.

Britons discover how

:58:36.:58:38.

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And Taylor Swift has won her case against the former radio DJ who groped her. We hear from an American journalist who was in court and says this is a win for all women.