29/11/2017 Victoria Derbyshire

Hello.

It's Wedneday, it's 9 o'clock,

I'm Victoria Derbyshire,

welcome to the programme.

If you voted to Leave the EU,

what do you think of the size

of the divorce bill to get out

of the European Union?

It's reported the UK cld pay

between 40 and 55 billion euros

to cover its liabilities,

after the government

upped the figure.

A deal on the Brexit bill seems

imminent.

Tell us what you think of the

figure.

Who do you blame?

And do you recall the leave campaign

telling you it would be this sort

of amount to get out of the EU?

Asylum seekers are facing

a "lottery" depending

on where their appeal is heard

according to research

seen by this programme

and some are being forced

to represent themselves

in complex cases.

Why is it acceptable that someone

faces removal from this country,

quite possibly to persecution or

death with no legal representative?

It is not acceptable.

We will bring you our exclusive

report.

And nominated for best newcomer

at tonight's Mobo Award.

We'll talk to London-born

rapper Young Bane.

Hello.

Welcome to the programme,

we're live until 11am this morning.

If you voted for Brexit,

let us know if this bill

for billions of pounds -

our so-called divorce

settlement - is a price worth

paying to leave the EU?

And what about the size of the bill?

Who set that out clearly

during the campaign ahead

of the EU referendum?

We would love to talk to some of you

on the programme.

You can e-mail me or send me a

message on Twitter. If you are

texting you will be charged and

there is Facebook and whatsapp.

Our top story today, the BBC

understands that the government has

offered the European Union

between 40 and 55 billion euros,

as the financial settlement

to withdraw from the EU.

It's become known as the Brexit

divorce bill, and has been one

of the main sticking points

in the negotiations.

Previously, Theresa May has

suggested that the UK was willing

to pay 20 billion euros,

but there have been calls from

Brussels for that to be increased.

Norman is at Westminster. So they

have upped the figure. And what an

enormous sum of money.

It's going up

and up and up. We started off during

the referendum campaign being told

we would be quids in. It would be

Brussels giving us money back. £350

million net for the NHS. Then we had

Mrs May in her Florence speech just

a few months ago saying actually, we

will give you maybe around 20

billion euros. Now, all the

indications are we could be paying

in the 40s. We don't have a specific

figure, vast amounts of speculation

in some of the papers. Here we have

the Guardian, UK faces £50 billion

divorce bill. Similar story in the

Times. Britain to pay EU bill for

decades. That's because we may not

know the final sum that we're going

to pay for many, many years to come

and the reason for that is we're not

going to hand over a wadge of cash

and say, "Here you are, here is £40

billion." This will be a sum

assessed every year looking at our

liabilities every year and may not

be paid off until really many, many

years' time. So calculating the

final figure may be extremely hard.

Haven't been helped this morning by

the good people of Brussels, we had

Michel Barnier arriving for work,

saying pretty much ziltho. Have a

listen.

REPORTER: Do you welcome Britain's

decision to pay more?

We keep

working.

I thought that was almost a shrug of

the shoulder. What of folk here?

Well, you might expect Brexiteers to

be angry at the amount we are

thinking of giving to Brussels. They

are, whether they are going to kick

up over it is another thing

altogether. They seem to suspect

that it is Brussels that has put

this figure out here to try and

bounce Mrs May into accepting it. In

other words, it is a crafty ploy to

get Mrs May to up the stakes. Others

are pointing the finger of blame at

Mrs May's chief negotiator, Oliver

Robins saying he has been rolled

over by the eurocrats. You listen to

Chris Grayling, Transport Secretary

and prominent Brexiteer. He said the

priority has to be trying to leave

the EU on good terms.

I don't think

it is a question of putting figures

on it at this moment in time, we

said we will fulfil our obligations.

It is right and proper over a 40

year of membership you do build up

liabilities. We want to walk away

with good relation and remain good

friends and neighbours of the

European Union. Of course, nothing

is agreed until everything is

agreed, but we accept there are

obligations we built up and we will

meet them as the Prime Minister

said.

So what can we day for

definite? Well, one, we are going to

end up paying a lot more than the 20

billion euros that Mrs May flagged

up a couple of months ago in

Florence. Two, we do seem to be

inching towards a deal at the

crucial December summit. When you

look at the mood music surrounding

this summit compared to the one in

October where we were told you have

not done enough, you can't move on

to trade talks, this time there is a

different feel and I think there is

almost an expectation, perhaps not

quite, that we will get the green

light to move on to those crucial

trade talks.

Thank you very much, Norman.

Some messages from you on that, Ben

Anderson says, "Anyone who voted

leave should be hiding under a rock.

It's shameful." Ministry of Matt

says, "I would like you to explain

what the £40 billion is for.

Otherwise you are pushing the lie

that it's a ransom." We will do

that. Don't worry. We will talk more

about this through the programme.

Let me know your views whether you

voted Leave or Remain. What do you

think of the size of the amount

that's being talked about? Do you

want to be told the specific figure

or a more specific figure rather

than the sum between 40 and 55

billion euros? Is it worth paying

that money to leave the European

Union? Many of you will think it is.

Let me know your views. We would

love to talk to you on the

programme. Now the news with Anita.

North Korea has carried out another

ballistic missile test -

its first for two months.

Pyongyang says the missile

which landed in Japanese waters

is a new type of weapon

and its most powerful yet.

Experts believe that North Korea has

demonstrated for the first time

that it could now hit most

of the American mainland.

President Donald Trump

was briefed while the missile

was still in the air.

Thank you very much.

As you probably have heard,

and some of you have reported,

a missile was launched a little

while ago from North Korea.

I will only tell you that

we'll take care of it.

We have General Mattis

in the room with us,

and we had a long discussion on it.

It's a situation

that we will handle.

A 15-year-old boy has been charged

with causing the deaths by dangerous

driving of three children and two

men who died in a collision

in Leeds on Saturday.

The teenager is due to appear

at Leeds Magistrates'

Court this morning.

All five victims were in

the car when it crashed.

The youngest were

brothers aged 12 and 14.

Police have appealed

for information.

Lawyers for a man found guilty

of murdering a mother and daughter

in Kent in 1996 say they'll release

significant new evidence today that

casts doubt on his conviction.

Lyn Russell and her

six-year-old daughter, Megan,

were attacked as they walked along

a quiet country lane

near the village of Chillenden,

south east of Canterbury.

Although there was no forensic

evidence linking him to the crime,

Michael Stone was convicted,

largely on the strength

of a disputed confession

to another prisoner.

Our correspondent Wyre

Davies has this report.

It was a notorious murder.

A brutal, unprovoked attack

in the Kent countryside,

on a family walking home

from a school swimming gala.

45-year-old Lin Russell

and her six-year-old

daughter, Megan, were killed

in the frenzied hammer attack.

But nine-year-old Josie survived,

despite suffering terrible injuries.

Michael Stone, a known

criminal and drug addict,

was arrested a year later in 1997

and found guilty of

the Russell murders.

He's serving a life

sentence, but has always

protested his innocence.

There's no forensic evidence

against Stone and he was convicted

on a disputed confession to a fellow

prisoner and Stone's legal team say

they now have compelling,

new evidence linking this man,

Levi Bellfield, to

the Russell murders.

The killer of schoolgirl

Millie Dowler, Amelie Delagrange

and Marsha McDonnell is serving two

full life terms and many say

Bellfield has committed dozens

of similar serious crimes.

The similarities you've got are,

a woman, a blitz attack

with something heavy like a hammer.

Just those features make it

an extremely rare crime.

I think in the absence of other

facts, he would be a good suspect.

Two decades after the appalling

Russell murders, lawyers for the man

convicted of the killings will today

release new evidence that the BBC

has seen and which they say

means his case must now go

to the Court of Appeal.

The government is considering

breaking up two of the country's

biggest train operators as part

of a new rail strategy.

The franchises are Great Western

and GTR, which combines Southern,

Thameslink and Great Northern.

Ministers are also exploring

the possibility that some

of the lines closed during the 1960s

could be re-opened.

They say new rail lines can unlock

jobs, encourage house building

and ease overcrowding

on the existing network.

Apple says it is working to fix

a serious bug in its most recent

Mac operating system.

The flaw in the High Sierra software

makes it possible to access

a Mac computer or laptop

without a password and gain

powerful administrator rights.

A restored white Fiat,

crowd-funded by residents

in a town in Poland,

has finally arrived in the US,

destined for the actor Tom Hanks,

as a birthday present.

One of his fans, Monica Jaskolska,

who is from the town

where the classic car was made

in the 1970s, noticed the star's

enthusiasm for the model and decided

to raise money to send him one.

The car was shown off at a party

for the star's birthday in July,

with money left over

going to the local hospital.

I hope he appreciates it. I'm sure

he will.

That's a summary of the latest BBC

News - more at 9.30am.

Pete Wood says, "I voted leave, but

if it costs more to leave than

remain, I am prepared to admit I was

wrong." LJ says, "It is a joke they

are demand ago ludicrous sum of

money. I'm not convinced that

walking away would be so bad now and

we can use the money to rebuild."

Someone has replied to her who says,

"How do you know this isn't a

ludicrous amount of money?" A good

question.

Do get in touch with us

throughout the morning -

use the hashtag Victoria LIVE

and If you text, you will be charged

at the standard network rate.

Hugh is here. Ben Stokes has landed

down under. What chance of him

getting involved in the Ashes?

It is

a slim chance. We will see how

things go with Ben Stokes over the

coming weeks. The first Ashes Test

didn't go well, a ten wicket defeat

in Brisbane. You imagine England

will need all the help they can, but

will Ben Stokes be coming to their

rescue. He has got closer to his

team-mates in Australia. He is under

investigation following that

incident outside a Bristol night

clubleg. The ECB allowed him to play

in New Zealand this weekend. He was

flown out and greeted by his parents

as he arrived in Christchurch

overnight and it sparked plenty of

back page stories that Stokes could

be nearing an England return. He was

missed in the defeat at the Gabba.

Police haven't indicated when the

investigations could conclude.

Stokes hasn't been charged with any

offence. Plenty of the fans on

social media are begging the ECB to

bring him back, but Andrew Strauss

says they have no idea when there

will be an outcome. Their procedure

means within 48 hours of a decision

they could have Stokes back in their

team and that would be very welcome

with an already crucial second test

toll come in the early hours of

Saturday morning.

Lots of midweek Premier League

action. Tell us about Tottenham in

particular?

Well, Spurs have been

lauded for a highly, haven't they?

The likes of Dele Alli and Harry

cane. They had the

FANFARE

TAssic win in the Champions League

and they topped the group stage, but

they may have hit a stumbling block,

the one thing his manager and team

are missing is a trophy. It doesn't

look like it will be the Premier

League because it is just four

points from the last 15 available

for them. They were beaten 2-1 last

night at Leicester.

The manager says his team must

improve. They could be 16 points

behind Manchester City if they win

tonight. Jose Mourinho, well, he

wasn't pleased with his players

despite Manchester United's 4-2 win

at Watford. Ashley Young helped put

them 3-0 up before two late Watford

goals made for a late finish. Jose

Mourinho said his team should have

been smoking cigars!

Managerless West Brom missed out on

their first Premier League win since

August. They gave away a two goal

lead to draw 2-2 with Newcastle.

Johnny Evans' own goal making that

harder to take.

England's women

played last night. Are they any

closer to finding a replacement for

their coach who was sacked, Mark

Sampson?

Well, interviews for his

replacement will take place next

Monday. Their interim head coach has

given her case a boost. It is two

wins and one lose in her three games

in charge. Inspired by Chelsea' Fran

Kirby. Mel Lawlel scored a goal.

England turned it on after the

break. They scored four goals in 12

minutes. Substitute Kirby grabbing a

penalty. England have a game in hand

over the Group A leaders Wales.

Northern Ireland beat Slovakia 3-1

in their group. It should be a good

qualifying campaign in that group

for England and Wales.

More from Hugh throughout the

morning. It's 9:15am.

Figures seen by this

programme suggest that some

hearing centres are twice

as likely as others to allow asylum

seekers to remain in UK.

One immigration case worker has told

us the situation is so severe that

some lawyers have lied

about the address of their client

to get their case heard

at a different location.

The Shadow Attorney General Shami

Chakrabarti says the stats

are very upsetting and called

for an investigation

by the government.

Catrin nye has this

exclusive report.

Catrin Nye has this

exclusive report.

They would arrive in court,

and they literally do have

supermarket plastic bags

stuffed with papers.

That is completely unacceptable

in a humane democracy.

Well, I do know of cases

where people have lied

about their address.

It's not a measure that ought to be

the norm in the way that we operate,

in the way that we run

our judicial system.

The Government has

a responsibility to investigate.

What do you do with your days

while you're waiting?

I go out to the seaside, walk.

I like to be alone most of the time.

Mohammed is 21, and has been

in the UK for four years.

He lives in Portsmouth,

and is seeking asylum

here because he says he was forced

to flee his home in Homs in Syria.

His initial asylum claim failed,

and so did his appeal.

I didn't feel like somebody

support me, you know?

For example, the solicitor,

she doesn't do her proper

work for this case.

The court was as well

unfair with me.

Mohammed says he has not had

a lawyer fully engage in his case

at any stage in the asylum

process so far.

At his appeal hearing, he met his

appeal representative just half

an hour before the hearing.

She said I didn't have

time to read it before,

because I didn't get there.

We went, and after I get there,

we were after just called.

When I came here, there was one man

from the Home Office, he said to me,

you've come to the right place.

And now you get all your human

rights and everything.

And to now I didn't feel like I get

any one of my rights of life.

Mohammed now has a new legal rep,

Laura Smith, and is putting

in a fresh claim for asylum.

And looking at the evidence, why do

you think he's failed in the past?

Probably a whole group of reasons.

Luck and getting a bad judge and not

having someone who fought the case

sufficiently for him.

There were mistakes

which the Home Office made,

where they said that he'd answered

questions wrongly about Syria,

where he'd answered them correctly.

That was never picked up

by his lawyers, and that was never

picked up by the judge,

despite it being just a simple issue

that could have been

clarified very quickly.

We've been investigating the results

of asylum appeals across the UK,

and through Freedom of Information

requests to the Ministry of Justice,

have found big variations

in the number of successful appeals

depending on which hearing

centre they're at.

Just a quick scan down this list

shows you huge differences

in results over four years.

Taking two centres that handle

lots of cases, both in London,

at Harmondsworth 24%

of appeals were successful.

Taylor House, it was 47%.

And the variations exist

across the whole UK.

Newport, 44% successful.

Yarl's Wood in Bedfordshire, 21%.

Bradford, 41.

Glasgow, 28.

We've removed the now unlawful

fast-track appeals from this

dataset, so you are now comparing

a like-for-like

process across the UK.

For this investigation,

we've spoken to more than 20 people

that work in asylum to help us

interpret the data.

Lawyers, academics,

judges and charities.

We can't give one single reason

for this massive variation,

but access to good legal

representation and a differing

culture at different hearing centres

are the two things that come up

again and again.

We also know from one further

Freedom of Information request

that the centres with the lowest

numbers of appeals allowed also have

high numbers of people with no legal

representation at all.

Katrina Jarvis is a former

asylum tribunal judge.

She says she's seen many people turn

up their hearing with nothing more

than a pile of documents.

They would arrive in court,

and they literally do have

supermarket plastic bags

stuffed with papers.

And they come and sit in court

and put them on the desk in front

of them and look at you.

And then to try to piece together

what kind of a case person

might have and what it is

that they want to do.

Do they want me to try

and hear their case now?

Do they want to go

away and get a lawyer?

Have they got a lawyer

who's not there?

Have you helped people as a judge

in a way that others may not?

I've on many occasions helped,

I hope, people are pointed them

in the right direction,

either in the course of a hearing

that then continued,

or through perhaps adjourning

and finding a lawyer.

Whereas another judge might just,

say, not allow their appeal?

They might, or they might decide not

to adjourn and proceed

with the hearing even though

there wasn't a lawyer there.

There are different approaches.

Mohammed's legal representative,

Laura, believes that there

are significant differences

in the attitudes of judges depending

on where a case is heard.

So this is an example

of a case that was originally

heard at Harmondsworth,

where we received

a very bad decision.

We returned to Taylor House with

almost exactly the same evidence,

and the appeal was allowed.

And you think that was about

the judge at a different centre?

I would say those two

decisions are quite

representative of the contrast

between the two hearing centres.

So you've seen our statistics

which show this massive

variation in results.

Do they surprise you?

I'm sadly not surprised at all.

It's the kind of arbitrary

decision-making which I see

across the systems all the time,

that two meritorious cases can have

completely different results

based on different judges

and different hearing centres.

And I think most lawyers,

all lawyers in our field would tell

you that they would much rather

have their hearing at

Taylor House than at

Harmondsworth or Hatton Cross.

And do you try and make

sure your hearings are there?

Um, I have done.

If someone is able to move

so they can live near Taylor house

and their hearing will be heard

there, I would tell them that

that was definitely worth it

for them, because unfortunately,

I think the system is unfair,

and you have to try and achieve

fairness of the client if you can.

How far do you see lawyers go

to get their clients into places

where the results are better,

they are more likely to get asylum?

Well, I do know of cases where

people have lied about their address

so that they would be

in the Taylor House

district and have the

hearings heard there.

Is that an acceptable thing to do?

No, that's not acceptable.

But if someone can move

to live in the area,

I think that would be acceptable.

We've been told that

lawyers are lying in order

to get their clients seen at hearing

centres with more

favourable results.

Make up an address.

Well, that's very shocking, and I'm

saddened to hear that, if that's so.

And something should

be done about it.

Which elements do you think

is shocking, then, the lying

or the fact that they feel

they to do that?

Well, both are shocking.

Both are shocking.

It's not a measure that ought

to be a norm in the way

that we operate and the way

that we run our judicial system.

It's wholly wrong.

It shouldn't be a lottery.

As part of our investigation,

we also looked at whether weaker

asylum cases or people from specific

countries are said to particular

asylum cases or people from specific

countries are sent to particular

geographical areas.

But despite the Home Office failing

to tell us exactly how

it disperses people,

it doesn't seem people are allocated

to an area in this manner.

Some of the lowest results do

appear at hearing centres

near immigration detention centres,

where we know it can be

very difficult to get

legal representation.

I think these statistics

are very upsetting.

This suggestion that there

are advice deserts and legal aid

deserts for people in different

parts of the country means people

are going into asylum

appeals unrepresented.

That is completely unacceptable

in a humane democracy.

Do you think it could be

that the cases where there are no

legal representation

are just simply weaker?

I don't think you can

put down these levels

of disparity to coincidence,

or to weak cases.

There is no reason why cases

would be weaker in one part

of the country compared to another.

What do you think needs to be done

about the statistics?

Firstly, I think that

yours has been an excellent

journalistic investigation,

but the Government

has a responsibility

to investigate further.

Why so many successful

appeals across the country,

and why such disparity in different

parts of the country?

It is the responsibility

of Government, not just

the Home Office but particularly

the Justice Department in this

instance, to investigate.

No-one should ever go into an asylum

appeal unrepresented.

You wouldn't dream of sending

someone into the Crown Court

in a criminal case unrepresented,

quite possibly to

lose their liberty.

Why is it acceptable that someone

faces removal from this country,

quite possibly to persecution

or death, with no

legal representative?

It's just not acceptable.

In Portsmouth, Mohammed's hopeful

that he will secure asylum

in the UK, but he's already been

here four years, and he says

he doesn't let himself

think about the future,

any future, any more.

Maybe they have to say, for example,

you have to go back to your country,

and everything gone.

I don't feel like I've gone up,

always I've gone down in my life.

Well, the Ministry of Justice -

mentioned in Catrin's report -

haven't commented on the story.

But the Judicial Office

which supports judges in courts

in England and Wales told us that:

"All judges consider each case

individually based on the relevant

facts and the law.

There may be a number of complex

factors that explain why

there is a variation of outcomes

at different hearing centres

but judges will always deal

with each case fairly and based

on the merits.

Immigration judges are

deployed across the various

hearing centres and do not sit

solely in any single one"

A major security flaw has been

discovered in Apple's

latest operating system.

Here to explain more

is our technology correspondent

Rory Cellan-Jones.

What's going on?

This is about the

latest operating system on Apple

computers, the Mac. Somebody has

discovered the most ridiculous bug

that you heard of it is

embarrassing. You simply type in a

word root, tap a couple of times and

you are in as another user and you

can do all sorts of things with the

computer. It's inherent on you

having your hands on somebody's

computer. Somebody who may have left

it alone for a while. But it's a

pretty serious bug. Interestingly,

it was exposed by the Turkish

security research it most recently.

Usually security research as you go

looking for this Dunn these books

informed the company before

informing the world. He didn't do

that. He popped up a couple of weeks

ago on a support forum. Somebody

actually noticed this and put it out

there as a way of getting around

some other issue people were having.

Quite innocently and I love it. This

person on November 13 explained how

you can do this to sort out some

other issues. A few days later on

the same forum, somebody else says,

oh, my God, that should not work but

it does. This is really, really bad.

How long for Apple to sort it?

They

are rushing out an update pretty

soon. Probably within a few hours.

But it's a pretty embarrassing bug

not to have found. Not to have

noticed when they updated the

system.

Thanks very much.

Still to come:

Progress in the fight

against malaria appears to have

stalled with incidents

of the disease rising

in some areas.

We'll be looking

into the reason why.

Finally some movement

in Brexit negotiations as UK

increase their "divorce settlement"

offer to around £44 billion.

They increase in from anywhere from

40 to 55 billion.

We'll be finding out

out what Brexiteers

think of the new offer.

Whether you voted to leave or

remain, let us no.

Time for the latest

news, here's Annita.

The BBC News headlines this morning.

The BBC understands

that the Government has offered

the European Union between £40

and £49 billion in the financial

settlement as Britain

withdraws from the EU.

Downing Street has rejected

no figure was agreed.

The Transport Secretary,

Chris Grayling, told

the BBC that the UK would

"meet our obligations".

North Korea has carried out another

ballistic missile test -

its first for two months.

Pyongyang says the missile

which landed in Japanese waters

is a new type of weapon

and its most powerful yet.

Experts believe that North Korea has

demonstrated for the first time

that it could now hit most

of the American mainland.

President Donald Trump

was briefed while the missile

was still in the air.

A 15-year-old boy has been charged

with causing the deaths by dangerous

driving of three children and two

men who died in a collision

in Leeds on Saturday.

The teenager is due to appear

at Leeds Magistrates'

Court this morning.

All five victims were in the car

when it crashed - the youngest

were brothers, aged 12 and 14.

Police have appealed

for information.

Lawyers for Michael Stone,

the man found guilty of murdering

a mother and daughter in Kent

in 1996, say they'll release

significant new evidence today that

casts doubt on his conviction.

Lin Russell and her six-year-old

daughter, Megan, were attacked

as they walked along a quiet country

lane near the village of Chillenden,

south east of Canterbury.

Children with autism

in England are being let down

by the education system,

according to a report

by the All Party Parliamentary group

for Autism, seen by the BBC.

Nearly three in four parents said

they waited more than six months

for the support their child

is entitled to, while half said

they waited more than a year.

The Department for Education says

"all schools have a duty

to support children

with special educational needs".

It says it's given councils

£223 million in extra funding

to introduce reforms.

Apple says it's working to fix

a serious bug in its most recent

Mac operating system.

The flaw in the High Sierra software

makes it possible to access

a Mac computer or laptop

without a password, and gain

powerful administrator rights.

That's a summary of

the latest BBC News.

Some comments from you on the Brexit

divorce bill. The latest figures

reported today anywhere between 40

and 55 billion euros. Gary says, "I

am all for Brexit, but being held to

ransom is a no, no." Alistair says,

"The EU has been ripping off the UK

for years. No surprise they are

doing it now." Max says, "I voted

Leave and I was lied to." We will

talk to some of you on the programme

later. If you voted in the EU

referendum, whatever you voted, we

would like your views on the latest

figures that Britain looks like it

will have to pay to leave the EU and

in order for the negotiations to

move to talk about a trade deal.

Hugh is back. He has got the sport.

Ben Stokes has flown into

Christchurch with the prospect of

playing club cricket in New Zealand.

He had his England kitbag in toe as

well. In football, Manchester United

boss Jose Mourinho was unhappy with

his team's wastefulness saying they

should have been five or six up.

They were 3-0 at half-time. It is

four points from their last five

games for Tottenham. They were

beaten by Leicester City. The Spurs

boss said he's disappointed and

frustrated. And England's women made

it three wins from three in World

Cup qualifying with a 5-0 thrashing

of Kazakhstan, there were wins for

Wales and Northern Ireland. That's

all the sport for now. I will have

more after 10am.

Thank you very much, Hugh.

Coercive control is a type

of domestic abuse that can

have a devastating psychological

affect on those impacted.

It's a non-violent form of control

which is used to frighten

and dominate a partner -

whether male or female.

It was made illegal

at the end of 2015

and is punishable by up to five

years in prison.

Nearly two years after the law

was introduced, police figures show

more people are being arrested

on suspicion of coercive

and controlling behaviour,

but only one in six are charged

with the offence.

Why?

We can speak now to Lisa-Marie

Flavin who says experienced coercive

control at the hands

of her ex-partner.

Emma Pearmaine is a family

lawyer and campaigner

for survivors of domestic abuse.

David Tucker, head of the crime

and criminal justice faculty

at the College of Policing.

Welcome all of you. Thank you very

much for coming on the programme.

Lisa-Marie, thank you for talking to

us. I wonder if you can explain to

our audience what it feels like to

be in a relationship with someone

who controls you?

Coercive

controlling behaviour is the

foundation for every type of abuse,

let's be real about this, to be

controlled and abused it leads on to

other types of abuse. It makes you

feel, I mean, you're at the power of

somebody else. It is a slow trickle

of a process to be controlled and

coerced by someone. It happens very

slowly. But then the magnitude of

what it can do to them, the impact

on your mental health is extreme.

How did it begin with your ex then?

It began very slowly. It was

difficult for me to see friends. It

would come in an argument. I would

make plans and then he would be

like, "Don't go, stay with me." That

turned into then if you loved me,

you wouldn't go. You don't need

friends you've got me. And then it

turned into, he would destroy my

mobile phones, pull them out of the

wall, I was in the bath one time and

he threw my phone in the bath. I

wouldn't have contact with the

outside world. Facebook became

impossible. He would question

everyone that I knew on there. You

know, and then it went on to things

like, you know, I would leave and I

would go to stay with family. He

slashed the roof of my car, I now

know and he made out somebody did it

in my family's home so I wasn't safe

to be with my family. I had to go

back home to him, you know?

Yes.

Some people will think that it

can't, however distressing that, and

it is, because you become powerless

in the end, will still think can

can't be as traumatic as being

physically beaten up. What would you

say to them?

It is. At the time I

didn't realise what was happening to

me. That sounds insane. I don't see

myself as unintelligent. You don't

realise you are being abused. You

know the real them. They have got a

good heart. You know, they have just

got a few issues and anger. You

know, I realised I was depressed

long before I realised I was being

abused. It has a detrimental impact

on your mental health.

How did that

manifest itself in you?

You know, I

have always been a bubbly, social

person, happy go lucky. I was trying

to hide the abuse, you know, you

would say things, "Don't tell people

our business." It is between me and

you. He would gas light, we would,

something would happen the night

before and the next day, "That was

nothing, you were being too

sensitive." I went from this bubbly

character to a shell, an absolute

shell of my former self. I didn't

want to go out. It wasn't worth the

hassle. I was so afraid. I was

caught in the cycle of abuse being

bombarded with love and bombarded

with hate and abuse. I was

frightened. You're trapped in this

world just you and this person and

it is amazing how it takes a grip on

you.

You have described it so, so

eloquently. I know your ex-partner

was charged with coercive behaviour.

How important to you was it that the

police were able to understand and

recognise the controlling behaviour

that you say had gone on?

I mean

because this is a relatively new

legislation. It came out in December

2015. The local police that dealt

with my case unfortunately hadn't

been trained in coercive control. I

know it is looking to change which

is necessary. I was lucky. I was

made aware of the law by some

friends of mine who are in a

different police force and it was

just, you know, when I read about

coercive control, everything just

rang true.

Yes.

Everything he was

doing to me, it was just wow, this

is happening to me. There is a name

for what's happening to me.

I'm going to bring in Emma. You've

done a Freedom of Information

Request to every police force in

England to compile the figures on

arrests and charges for coercive

control in the first 18 months of

this new legislation and there is a

lot of variation. In some areas,

more than a third of arrests result

in charges. In others, it's much,

much smaller percentage. Why do you

think there is that variation?

I

think there are a number of issues

actually. I am involved with the

domestic violence charity and we

have been invited to a number of

police forces to deliver training on

coercive control. And that's been

very useful for the police officers

involved. I am assured by all police

forces that they are taking training

for their front line officers very

seriously and they are delivering

training and I think we can see from

the difference in the number of

arrests made in the first-half of

2016, to the number of arrests made

in the first-half of 2017 that

police officers are now very much

more aware of the issues of coercive

control and much more able to

recognise it.

Yet only one in six of

those arrests leads to a charge?

Still only one in six.

Why might be

the case?

Well, there are very

challenging evidential issues that

the police and the Crown Prosecution

Service have to deal with and we

have to accept that. There has to be

an element of repeated behaviour.

There has to be evidenced. It has to

be seen that the victim has

experienced fear and adapted their

behaviour as a result. And we also

have to be able to see that the

perpetrator or alleged perpetrator

knew effectively that their

behaviours would result in the

victim feeling fear and actually

that's a very difficult thing to

prove.

Very difficult. I mean, you

know, Lisa-Marie talked about her

mobile phone being smashed or

chucked into the bath or the top of

her car being slashed, you know, you

can see the physical outcome of that

happening, but don't go on Facebook,

don't go out, don't talk to them,

that's much harder to prove, isn't

it, David?

Yes, it is and policing,

of course, was set-up and over

decades has dealt with the man if

hes tations of issues so the damage

to car or the damage to mobile

phones. We are asking police

officers to understand more about

the incident that they are dealing

with and that's quite a change in

culture particularly for front line

officers so we are hearing that

training is taking place and there

is training that the College of

Policing is doing.

Made available

for so they don't have to do it?

We

set the standards around training

and we make training available and

forces can either use our products

or use their own. Very often it is

an appropriate thing for the forces

to use their own training products

because they might have their own

structures in police locally, we

work with the College of Policing to

make sure that the messages around

coercive controlling behaviour gets

out.

Do you link the number of

arrests that leads to a charge in

coercive control with training? Can

we make that link?

It is important

to see that this is not just a

policing issue. Theres a whole

system that works together. So we

work very closely with the national

policing lead, but we work with the

Inspectorate of Constabulary and the

Home Office and the Ministry of

Justice and so on and with the Crown

Prosecution Service. And what we

have to do is that the policing job

is to collect the evidence. We then

present that to the CPS and the

Crown Prosecution Service will make

a decision about whether a case can

go forward and whether the evidence

is there and there are changes...

I

know. I understand that. Most people

watching understand you collect the

evidence and you put it forward to

the CPS and they decide if a charge

goes forward or is brought. My

question is maybe Emma, you can help

me here. Are you seeing in the data

that you've looked at, there are

more arrests leading to charges in

areas where the police have taken up

the training?

Yes, we are. We

recognise it in terms of the clients

that we represent, day in and day

out across the country as family

lawyers and I see it in my role

working with the corporate alliance

against domestic violence and the

courses where we are invited to give

training, we can see the statistics

are positive and they are increasing

in terms of the number of arrests

and actually there is a very small

increase in terms of the number of

charges.

The College of Policing has

a product that we deliver with a

number of charities and we have

evaluated that and looked at the

impact and we know that that

training has an impact on the

attitudes and the learning of the

individuals. What we haven't, what

we can't prove is that you can then

see a change in the number of

arrests and the number of charges

because that would require a much

longer study.

Fair enough. They are

really interesting the figures. Data

from 35 police forces in England

show that in the first 18 months of

the new law, there were 4,000

arrests for coercive control, but

only 17% were charged with the

offence. By comparison, a decision

to charge was made for 70% of

domestic abuse related cases

referred to the CPS. It is just

interesting to compare at this

stage. Lisa machine Marie, I know

you wrote a very moving impact

statement after your case went to

court. Tell our audience what you

told the judge?

You broke up then,

what did you say?

Tell our audience

about the impact statement you gave

to the court.

I sort of addressed the judge, the

barristers. I know there's a lot of

good work going on down at the

ground level with coercive control,

people need to be educated, nope

it's the law. But if the people at

the top, the judges, the court,

don't recognise the serious of this

type of abuse, everything else on

the ground is fruitless. We need to

raise awareness. I also addressed

the perpetrator in court. I

addressed that the outcome did not

affect what had happened between us.

We knew the truth. I have a

catalogue of evidence, eyewitness

testimonies, you know, voice

recordings. It really needs to be

taken more seriously. To read it out

in court was empowering.

That's it,

good to hear. This tweet, well done

to Lisa - Marie. So brave to talk so

openly about coercive behaviour.

Being in control becomes your new --

being under control becomes your new

normal and you don't realise what's

going on. So consumed and it's a

scary cycle of abuse. What advice

would you give to anyone watching

right now who is hearing you

describe this this morning,

Lisa-Maria and saying, hang on, I

might be in a similar situation.

Lets not forget, no human being has

a right to control another. Not

under any circumstances. Nobody

should live in fear of somebody we

love. When it's the two of you in a

relationship or a family, it can

become the norm, this sort of

behaviour, but it's not a healthy

relationship. Nobody has a right to

control another. Seek advice. I was

silenced by fear and abuse for a

long time. When I started, it was

disclosing to Mike colleagues and

friends, when they saw the

difference, it then became clear, as

time has gone on that, wow, this is

a thing that's happening to me.

There's a name for it.

What you say?

Just call the police?

Call the

police. I was lucky, I was met with

some really supportive offices.

Obviously they didn't pick of the

chorus of control but they picked up

the harassment and I was lucky I had

support from friends and I got to

read up on coercive control. Yes,

reported to the police. This is a

serious thing and the law is here to

protect us.

Thank you very much,

Lisa-Maria. -- Lisa-Marie experience

coercive control. Thank you to Emma

and David. Thank you very much for

coming on the programme.

Coming up:

North Korea has tested

its most powerful

ballistic missile to date -

flying higher than any previous

missiles.

It's believed they're capable

of hitting mainland America.

We'll talk about that after 10am.

The fight against Malaria has been

one of global health's success

stories over the past few years,

but there's concern that progress

to tackle this devastating

disease is stalling.

Data from the World Health

Organisation shows the declining

trend in cases and deaths has

stopped - and even

reversed in some parts -

over the past three years.

Vulnerable children and pregnant

women in Sub-Saharan Africa

are the most likely victims.

Here are some of the facts.

Well, let's talk now to Jo Yirrell -

her 21-year-old son died

from malaria after visiting Ghana.

Also Professor Azra Ghani -

a malaria specialist

from Imperial College London.

And James Whiting -

the chief executive Malaria No More.

Thank you to all of you for coming

on the programme. Can you explain

what malaria is and how you go about

treating it?

Malaria is a disease

caused by a parasite, transmitted by

mosquitoes and is really prevalent

in areas where the climate is well

suited to mosquitoes, so mostly in

the tropical areas. It can be quite

mild disease but for some

individuals it can be particularly

and cause life-threatening...

Particularly those who aren't immune

to the disease. In an endemic areas

it will be young children who will

often die from the disease.

Toe us

how you protect from it.

Firstly it

is actually treatable. The major

challenge is for those children to

access care promptly so that they

receive that treatment. We have a

number of other tools to try to

prevent cases of malaria. One of the

major ones is bug nets. Those are

treated with a chemical that will

kill the mosquito if it comes into

contact and gives direct protection.

Jo, you work hard to eradicate

malaria in Ghana where you are

21-year-old son was volunteering.

Harry went to Ghana to work with

children in school, with sport. He

took his anti-malaria tablets with

him but he didn't take them because

he felt the children needed them

more than he did. He thoroughly

enjoyed himself, found himself, went

away a boy and came back a man. We

had him for ten days when he came

home, but when he came home he

started off with a headache and then

very quickly he went downhill and we

took him into hospital and he had

malaria. He died within ten days. He

was really strong young man. And we

were told he would survive.

Eventually his lungs gave up and he

couldn't cope any more. It's a very

unnecessary death. Had he taken his

tablets, had I understood more about

malaria, not just heard of it, I

could have gone on and on at him. I

would have got his treatment for him

quicker. But it's shocking. Losing a

child is shocking. It has the heart

out of you and then when you find

out it's a preventable disease and

its probably curable if the timing

had been right, yes, it's difficult

to get over. Malaria No More UK have

really helped me because I can talk

about Harry all the time and that's

my therapy. I'd like to get rid of

this disease.

It's motivating you to

try.

Yes, and it's a monument to

hurry if we can do that. His

brothers can see that his death has

meant something, almost.

James, from

Malaria No More. We have this WHO

report out today which suggests that

after years of progress, the

campaign to eradicate it is

stalling.

Yes, it's been one of the

most successful global health

campaigns in history. We've saved 7

million lives since 2000. Death

rates are down by 60% so this is

something that works. It's

phenomenally good value, if you can

put it that way. Treatment costs

about £1. Nets cost £3. There's

really no wait for it not to keep

going. There are up to 50% of Africa

who still do not have bed nets that

cost £3 to protect their children

for the next three years.

What is

going wrong?

Why is it stalling?

Funding is plateauing. It kills

children under five and pregnant

women in some of the poorest

countries in the world and I don't

think there's a voice out there that

saying, look, we've got to do

something about it. It's the quiet,

relentless killer. In the Ebola

crisis, more people died of malaria

in those three countries than died

of a bowler.

Really?

Nobody hears

about it because it just keeps

killing and we can stop it.

You say

funding has plateaued. Does that

because Westerners think malaria has

pretty much been eradicated?

I think

there's a real fear about

complacency because you don't have

that relentless drive, it's not in

the news, etc. But actually the UK

and US... The UK has been an

absolute global leader in the

campaign against malaria.

The second

largest donor in fight against

malaria, according to the Department

for International Development.

Government has been fantastic over

the last decade or so and they've

really put a huge effort into this

because they can see the value, that

this is the way to save children's

lives, save pregnant women's lives.

The public respond. Whenever we see

comic relief, we know people

respond. They have the biggest

response to it. It is not about the

UK so much, but the UK has a chance

to see Dunn do something

extraordinary next year, I think.

In

what sense?

All of the Commonwealth

countries are coming here in April

20 18. They represent six of the top

ten countries that suffer from

malaria. Nine out of ten people in

the Commonwealth are in malarial

countries. This is a chance for the

UK and the Commonwealth to take on

the biggest, oldest killing disease.

We're going to really push this

through to the end. We're going to

end this disease and what we could

commit to is halving deaths in cases

in the Commonwealth in the next five

years. That would be a huge thing to

take on.

Do those kind of targets

motivate communities, governments?

Are they useful?

Absolutely. It is

central and in those countries we

work, those targets need to be

visible and malaria is appreciated

in those countries. They see it as

their number one health problem. The

difficulty for them is they are the

poorest countries in the world and

they really need to depend on

external financing.

According to the

Department for International

Development, they say the

international community needs to

start -- step up along with the UK.

Absolutely. 800 children lost today.

Parents are losing children. It

doesn't need to happen. They just

need to push forward, stop stalling.

Everybody get on board. Governments

globally. Eradicate the disease, it

can be done. It's preventable,

curable, it can be done.

Thanks for

coming on and telling us about

Harry, Jo and Professor Azra and

James. Thank you.

It's the beginning of awards season,

and first up are the UK's annual

celebration of urban music

- the MOBOs.

In the next hour we'll be speaking

to Yxng Bane who has been

nominated for best newcomer.

Let's get the latest weather update.

It is cold.

It is cold. You're absolutely right,

Victoria. If you think it's cold

today, it's going to be

even colder tomorrow. Our air at the

moment is coming all the way from

the Arctic. A real biting wind

expected tomorrow and for many of

us, we'll seek some wintry showers,

as well. This morning started off

cold and frosty and with that we

have some pleasant scenes. Look at

that ice pattern in Cornwall. I

guess that's on a car windscreen or

a roof or something. For many,

pretty cold today. Wintry showers

continuing across eastern areas of

England. Showers, not as many across

northern and eastern Scotland but

into the afternoon there will still

be a few wintry flurries over the

higher ground of Aberdeenshire and

the far north-east. Temperatures are

two or three degrees. For Northern

Ireland, still a few showers

scattered here, but the eastern

areas of England, mainly rain

showers down to low levels this

afternoon. There'll be some brighter

skies in between. Sadly for the

Midlands, Wales, through much of

southern and south-west England,

some sunshine. Still showers in

Pembrokeshire and towards Cornwall.

Tonight, with clear skies for many,

it'll be another Cold War. Colder

than last night. Probably the

coldest night of the autumn so far.

Temperatures down to -6 or -7 in

places. A widespread frost to start

off on Thursday morning and where

you had those showers through the

night, there is the risk of some

ice. Thursday, will have a stronger

wind and a continuation of those

wintry showers in eastern Scotland

and the eastern side of England.

Even down to low levels, through the

morning and into the afternoon,

there could be some snow here. It'll

feel much colder. Temperatures

probably feeling more like freezing

to -12 minus three degrees. As we go

through into Friday, a subtle. -- -1

to -3. You can see the air direction

changes slightly coming in for more

of a north-westerly wind. Some

cloudier skies across Scotland and

Northern Ireland. Much of the UK, it

will be dry with some sunshine. Into

the weekend, this mild direction of

air coming in from the west

north-west will bring theirs where

the front to the south. Less cold as

we go through the weekend. You can

see that from the air mass picture.

This orange air is starting to use

in a little bit. While we've lost

that northerly wind, we got a

north-westerly wind coming in. A

polar air mass but much more cloud

around both Saturday and Sunday.

Temperatures up to about seven to 10

degrees which is probably more like

the average for the time of year.

Goodbye.

Hello.

It's 10am.

It's Wednesday.

I'm Victoria Derbyshire.

The Brexit divorce bill is reported

to be between 40 and 55 billion

euros.

Downing Street said there is no deal

on the amount that we are prepared

to day, but a deal on the Brexit

divorce bill seems imminent.

If you voted to leave the EU do

you think this is a good deal?

We'll get reaction to

the new offer from leave voters.

In exclusive report we reveal that

asylum seekers are facing

a "lottery" depending

on where their appeal is heard

in research seen by this programme

and some are being forced

to represent themselves

in complex cases.

Able to move so they are live near

Taylor House and their hearing will

be heard there. I will tell them

that it will be worth it. The system

is unfair and you have to achieve

fairness for your client if you can.

We'll be talking to a solicitor

who has witnessed these variations

in results at first-hand

with his clients later

in the programme.

And awards season kicks off this

evening with MOBOs and we'll talking

to London-born rapper Young Bane

nominated for best newcomer.

Here's Annita in the BBC Newsroom

with a summary of today's news.

Good morning.

The BBC understands

that the Government has offered

the European Union up to 50 billion

euros as a financial

settlement for Britain's

withdrawal from the EU.

Downing Street said no final

figure had been agreed

and negotiations were continuing.

The Transport Secretary,

Chris Grayling, told

the BBC that the UK would

"meet our obligations".

North Korea has claimed its latest

ballistic missile test demonstrates

it now has the capability to strike

anywhere in the United States.

Experts say the altitude it achieved

strongly indicates that if it

were fired at a different angle,

it could reach Washington.

China has urged all sides to stop

actions which it said

heightened tensions.

A 15-year-old boy has been charged

with causing the deaths by dangerous

driving of three children and two

men who died in a collision

in Leeds on Saturday.

The teenager is due to appear

at Leeds Magistrates'

Court this morning.

All five victims were in

the car when it crashed.

The youngest were brothers,

aged 12 and 14.

Police have appealed

for information.

The Government is considering

breaking up two of the country's

biggest train operators as part

of a new rail strategy.

The franchises are Great Western

and GTR which combines Southern,

Thameslink and Great Northern.

Ministers are also exploring

the possibility that some

of the lines closed during the 1960s

could be re-opened.

They say new rail lines can unlock

jobs, encourage house building

and ease overcrowding

on the existing network.

Asylum seekers are facing

a "lottery" depending

on where their appeal is heard,

research by this

programme has found.

Appeals are twice as likely to be

successful at some centres

compared with others,

data obtained through a Freedom

of Information Request found.

Lawyers for Michael Stone,

the man found guilty of murdering

a mother and daughter in Kent

in 1996, say they'll release

significant new evidence today that

casts doubt on his conviction.

Lin Russell and her six-year-old

daughter, Megan, were attacked

as they walked along a quiet country

lane near the village of Chillenden,

south east of Canterbury.

Apple says it's working to fix

a serious bug in its most recent

Mac operating system.

The flaw in the High Sierra software

makes it possible to access

a Mac computer or laptop

without a password, and gain

powerful administrator rights.

That's a summary of the latest BBC

News - more at 10.30am.

Thank you for getting in touch. Tim

says, "The EU should supply us with

a detailed invoice, down to the last

million and then we should consider

paying it." Luke says, "I voted out

and still believe it was the right

decision in the long run. Let's just

pay it and get on with making our

digital and banking services the

best in the world." And Erika texts,

"We shouldn't pay the EU anything

until there is a full audit and

financial justification for the

outrageous amount being asked for."

We will talk to a Conservative MP

who is also a Leave campaigner in

the next half an hour. We would like

to hear from you as well. Tell us

your own view. The Government

agreeing to up the amount it pays to

leave the EU. Anywhere, it is

reported between 40 and 50 billion

euros. Hugh is back. He has got the

sport.

Could Ben Stokes be coming to

England's rescue in the Ashes? He

has landed in New Zealand. He has

brought his kit with him. He says he

is there to visit his mum and dad.

It has fuelled rumours he could be

in line for an Ashes appearance.

The players, well they say, they are

introducing a midnight curfew to

avoid any issues.

It stops us from

being out in the early hours of the

morning which is a good thing. We

are here to win games of cricket. An

Ashes Series is a huge part of

anyone's career and we are here to

win the series. We are not here just

to take part. The good thing for him

is he is closer to Australia if the

time was to come that he was to be

able to come and join the squad. But

we know no more than that and you

know, hopefully if he can get some

cricket under his belt that would be

good for him having had a couple of

months away from the game.

Tottenham have just four points

from the last 15 after another

defeat in the Premier League.

Riyad Mahrez put Leicester

on their way to a 2-1 win

over Spurs last night.

Pochettino says his

team "must improve".

They could be 16 points behind

leaders Manchester City,

if they can win tonight.

Despite Manchester United's 4-2 win

at Watford, Jose Mourinho

said his team were too wasteful.

A brace from Ashley Young

helped to put them 3-0 up,

before two late Watford goals

made for a tense finish.

Jesse Lingard calmed

nerves with a solo goal.

West Brom missed out on a first

Premier League win since August -

giving away a two goal lead to draw

2-2 with Newcastle

at the Hawthorns.

Jonny Evans' own goal made

the result even harder to take.

Alan Pardew is set to be announced

as the new man in charge

at the Hawthorns later today.

Brighton and Crystal Palace

finished goalless.

Interim head coach Mo Marley

has given her chances

of a permanent role a boost,

after a 5-0 victory over

Kazakhstan in World Cup qualifying.

Mel Lawley scored the only goal

in the first half on her full debut.

Before England turned it

on after the break scoring four

goals in 12 minutes.

Substitute Fran Kirby grabbed

a penalty, before setting up

Nikita Parris for her first

and England's third.

There was a process, an application

process on the 17th. That's when the

time was when I first did it. I

agreed to put the CV in and we said

we would have a look at it. I think

now it is about letting the players

enjoy it. Hopefully the players are

pleased with their own performances

and we will sit down and have a look

and see what's right for the team

moving forward.

England second in Group 1. That's

after Wales' victory last night. A

win too for Northern Ireland. That's

all the sport for now, Victoria, I

will have more later in the hour.

The Government has offered a larger

potential divorce bill

to the European Union.

It's reported that the UK could pay

up to 50 billion euros

to cover its liabilities.

Let's talk to our Political Guru

Norman Smith in Westminster.

It is a huge amount of money and it

looks like the Government will pay?

We are going to pay and pay big

time. It is more than the 20 billion

which Mrs May floated in Florence.

See said we will go to 20 billion.

Now the signs are we could go quite