16/10/2013 Y Sgwrs


16/10/2013

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Welcome back. To what extent should politicians interfere in how we live?

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Banning smoking, rising the price of alcohol.

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Now, one party wants to have a levy on a bottle of pop.

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Is the state mothering us?

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We'll have the panel's opinion on Y Sgwrs.

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Welcome to y Sgwrs.

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A chance to discuss the controversial and the interesting

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from the political world and beyond.

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Here with me every week is Vaughan Roderick, our Welsh Affairs editor.

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Also here is someone who's used to this studio, Rhun ap Iorwerth.

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Welcome. He is the Plaid Cymru AM for Anglesey.

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Historian Dr Elin Jones is also here, who has been prominent

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on our screens recently as S4C marks the Senghenydd disaster this week.

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We'll be discussing history and its role in our schools later.

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But first let's talk about one of the biggest stories of the day

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that we discussed on Newyddion 9 earlier.

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Vaughan, this idea that we need more politicians down in the Bay.

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-Where has this idea come from?

-It isn't a new idea.

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There is an artificial partition in the Chamber

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and it can be taken out to make room for an extra 20 members.

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That was a recommendation made by the Richard Commission,

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if you remember.

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But this report, the academic report, says

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if you are going to have the proper scrutiny then you need 100 members.

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But the same report says there are too many councillors in Wales.

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More councillors in Wales than they have in Scotland.

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The suggestion is that the number of councillors could be cut down

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in order to have the resources to pay for more Assembly Members.

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But in a time of cuts, persuading the people of Wales

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-that this needs to be done will be a huge task.

-Very difficult.

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Rhun ap Iorwerth, you are new to the Assembly, are you drowning

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under pressure of work? You are one of 60 members there.

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Do we need any more there?

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It is worth noting that this idea

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hasn't come from inside the Assembly or from the political parties.

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We are in the middle of a recession.

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Ask anyone right across the world if they want you politicians,

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I think the answer would be, no.

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In my opinion I don't think it is a black and white matter.

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There is a price for democracy, there is a price to be paid

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for the type of democracy we need in Wales.

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That discussion is going to start as the Assembly has more powers.

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Do we need more members?

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With more powers there is a strong argument to make sure

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there is way of scrutinising the government

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so that they can't do what they want to do, and also to make sure

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that the assembly can cope with using

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the new tax-raising powers effectively.

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Dr Elin Jones, in Scotland they have 129 members.

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Northern Ireland has 108 members.

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If you look at 60 in Wales, it is weaker here.

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The Welsh Parliament is a baby of an assembly.

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Maybe it needs to grow like babies grow.

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We need more powers.

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But this business of councillors, the number of councillors,

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that is very interesting as well as the number of councils.

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I would strongly argue for the unification of some councils.

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That is very expensive.

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Yes, it is in the short term but we will save money in the long term.

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We need the government itself closer to the people.

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Remembering the stories today about the councils and cutting,

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the time is right for reorganisation?

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The problem is your organisation is costly in the short term.

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But, certainly, there are expectations that some councils

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will have to follow some councils in England

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where they share the staff, they share the services

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and only exist separately the constituency boundaries.

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Many thanks. Are you a fan of pop? The drink that is.

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If you are, you could be paying more for your lemonade

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if Plaid Cymru have their way.

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At the party's conference over the weekend

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they revealed a new policy to raise a levy on sugary drinks

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that will then go towards paying for 1,000 new doctors.

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Is it a good idea? Or visit another example of politicians trying

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to interfere in our daily lives? Aled ap Dafydd has this report.

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We all drink them, some drink too much of them.

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But is it the government's place to penalise us for making

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decisions that could affect our health?

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Families like the Williamses in Bangor

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will be hit in the pocket by a tax on sugary drinks.

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It is an effort to tackle obesity, that is the opinion in this home.

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But...

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I'm not sure if this is the answer.

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They need to consider families.

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For example, may be a can of Coke is a small treat for them.

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If you think about it, they are going to add 40 pence

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for a bottle of Coke.

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A bottle of Coke for a family of four like us,

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that is an extra two pounds a week just on pop.

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But as I have said, maybe it is a good idea to try to create

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jobs for doctors and so forth.

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As we discuss the lemonade levy,

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another term raises its ugly head again. The nanny state.

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Is the government trying to control our daily lives

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or working for the good of the population?

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Some politicians have their sights on more than just sugary jinx.

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The leader of Plaid Cymru, Leanne Wood,

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hasn't disregarded the idea of raising tax on fatty foods.

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But it raises the question, where is the line?

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How far should the government go

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while interfering in our everyday lives?

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There is no boundary.

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The government and the politicians have to find the right balance

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and use the right resources to change people's opinions.

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It is a matter of education, more than anything else.

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But interfering isn't going to work.

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It will alienate politicians away from people.

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Even more so than present.

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The Welsh Government hasn't been shy in trying to influence

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people's lives.

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After the smoking ban, then came the tax on plastic bags.

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The Westminster government has suggested

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tax cuts for married couples.

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This DJ, Gareth Potter,

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wasn't swayed by the government's interference.

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But now he has welcomed the efforts by our politicians.

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I used to have my headphones like that, a cigarette like that

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and the deck there. That was the stance.

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I used to smoke and listen.

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It was part of the whole thing.

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Once they brought in the smoking ban in the club, I thought great.

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I totally stopped smoking then.

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I am pleased I have done that. I thought I was total libertarian.

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I just thought, if someone wants to do it, they can do it.

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As long as they are not hurting anyone.

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I do believe the government should do these things.

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There are places where the government can interfere.

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So, what next?

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Is the health minister considering legislating where he feels

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individuals are not taking enough personal responsibility?

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I don't think we can legislate on everything.

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I am not going to start with legislation.

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But there is room for legislation as well.

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As the Health Minister I am going to bring forward,

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early on in the New Year, a white paper in the public health field.

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In that white paper I hope we can suggest some practical things

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we can do to help people.

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Everything is on the menu.

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Prepare for a healthier plate of food or higher prices.

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Joining me just for this discussion is Dr Harri Pritchard

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who is a GP on Anglesey. Welcome to you.

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-Do you think this is a good idea?

-Yes, I do.

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I think, as doctors, we have to welcome anything

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that will be part of something that will stop this obesity epidemic

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that we have in Wales.

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Somebody like Gareth Potter who has been turned

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by this idea of the state interfering, welcomes that.

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Is that what is at the root of this?

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That the government needs guidelines?

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I think the government is running everything in the country,

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they decide where the money goes and what are the priorities for health.

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We can't escape the fact that the government

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has to have an important part of legislation

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such as tax on alcohol, tax on tobacco

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and new taxes in things like sugary drinks.

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Rhun ap Iorwerth, how much would this raise?

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It depends how effective it is.

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The intention is to tackle obesity and so on.

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If people carried on drinking as they do,

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the markets would be worth £60 million of a levy in Wales.

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But that is not the point, bringing in money is not the point.

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But you say it is too pay for new doctors.

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You need the money to come in.

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It is some confusion about that.

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We want employ 1,000 additional doctors

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and that will cost about £60 million.

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We think that this levy would bring in £60 million into Wales.

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But people won't change their habits totally

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and it will be a contribution.

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-Was it a mistake to connect both things?

-No.

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If you connect both things, you are saying you have to still

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drink Tizer and Dandelion & Burdock or we will have to sack doctors.

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It doesn't surprise me that the political opposition

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trying to make that point, just as Carwyn Jones made it,

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quite laughably, in First Minister's Questions yesterday.

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The point is there is a national problem here.

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We need to tackle the national problem and what we have done

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is offer a pioneering idea which has been widely welcomed.

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It was very interesting to watch a network programme today

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in England discussing this pop tax idea by Plaid Cymru.

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They thought it was a good idea in order to tackle the problem.

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It has been implemented in France...

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It has been implemented in several places such as different

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-states in America.

-It isn't Plaid Cymru's original idea.

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But what about this idea of freedom of the individual?

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If the state tells us to do everything, isn't that dangerous?

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I prefer that they look after our health

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or they will waste our money on weapons for Afghanistan,

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to be honest.

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I see that savings can be made by money being saved in the NHS

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that's dealing with diabetes and obesity and so forth.

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I would welcome this.

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But I think, just as Gareth Potter said,

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the government runs our life anyway.

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I'd prefer it they would that for my benefit

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rather than the do it in order to pull young men into war

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and waste it on the nonsense with the banks.

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What we do have is this recent precedent with the plastic bags

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where there have been changes.

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Some people were very suspicious of it at the start

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but it has changed people's habits.

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We talk about the nanny state, we are not banning sugary drinks

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but giving people the choice and make them think

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through their pockets what is best for us.

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But with the plastic bags, the plastic bags are five pence.

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And seven pence on a can of drink. It is very similar.

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No, it is not.

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If you look at the own brands.

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If you go to ASDA and Tesco, it is two pounds for eight litres.

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If you are raising 40p a litre that is a significant price increase.

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Yes, it is. But if you look at the shelves in the supermarkets

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and there are things with high sugar and things with low sugar.

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I would hope that people, by introducing this policy,

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will change their habits

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and think about their health before making the usual purchase.

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Let's get the expert in here. Dr Pritchard.

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What about this idea of recruiting 1,000 doctors?

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You work on Anglesey, it isn't easy to get doctors there.

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Do you think Plaid Cymru adding cloud cuckoo land here thinking that

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doctors and living on trees?

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I think it is a different argument to the sugar debate.

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I don't know what is the connection between both.

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As a doctor, I accept there is a lack of doctors in Wales

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compared with England, but the major problem is

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where will we find these thousand doctors?

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There is already scarcity of doctors.

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The other thing that is forgotten is a doctor does not come on his own.

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Consultants need secretaries, they need people to work in offices

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to make appointments in the clinics.

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Surgeons need theatre time, they need theatre staff

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and those resources cost much more than a single doctor.

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Only a small percentage of the cost of getting the doctor

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is the actual wage, there are resources attached.

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-What do you say to that?

-The point on recruitment is interesting.

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It is something that I and many of my other Plaid Cymru members

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are concentrating on.

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It will be something that Harri will agree with.

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There is a recruitment problem in North Wales because,

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generally, people who go to medical school tend

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to remain on the patch where they do their training.

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We want to see much more training of doctors

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so we can make sure that the professional doctors are there

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to work in parts of Wales where there are recruitment problems.

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We want to use fewer agency doctors and locums.

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We need to train more.

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We need to appoint more people as well.

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Elin Jones, do you think there isn't a line to cross

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on state interference? Or is there?

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Many columnists in the Daily Mail, for example, say

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before long they will tell us what to think not just to behave

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and what to eat?

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That is what the Daily Mail's work is.

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Telling us how to think!

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No, I wouldn't take the Daily Mail's advice.

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I do feel that this is something that will benefit us.

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It isn't something that will harm this that's done in other areas

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with the government's money.

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But don't you think, we were talking about smoking as an example,

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that happened step-by-step.

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I remember the days when people smoked in the offices here

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and people were smoking in the back of aeroplanes.

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That changed first, and then there were slow changes.

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And then cigarette prices increase.

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People's social attitudes towards smoking changed too.

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There is nothing new in increasing the cost in order

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to make people think about their habits.

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Where there are movements within the British Isles towards putting

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the increased price on alcohol,

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the cost of cigarettes have increased,

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we have another idea to make people think.

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Dr Pritchard, this is Plaid Cymru's idea

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and we need powers to raise taxes.

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That is far away.

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But what is your message to the Welsh Government?

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What I would say is we need to look at it in an holistic way as well.

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It isn't just sugar in drinks, we need to look at education,

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and more importantly, after we had the budgets for the councils,

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is our leisure centres.

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It is easy enough to raise taxes on sugary drinks

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without looking more on exercise

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and the importance of keeping leisure centres open.

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That's just as important or even more important than sugar in drinks.

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We have to look at it in a much more holistic way

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than just one small factor.

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Dr Pritchard, many thanks for joining us.

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This week we remembered the disaster in Universal Colliery

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in Senghenydd 100 years ago.

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In our media and I'm sure in our classrooms, the remembering

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has brought the history of the community alive once again.

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But there are concerns that not enough Welsh history

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is being taught in our schools.

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We'll discuss that later.

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But first we will hear from the historian, Hefin Matthias.

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We live in an very complex world.

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The social world is even more complex.

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History is the key to know this complex world.

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We have a curriculum where Welsh history is important.

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The biggest problem is that Welsh history, and history generally,

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ends as a compulsively subject at the end of Key Stage Three.

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What happens then is children have to choose history as an option.

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If you place Welsh history in competition with

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history on Hitler, for example, the whole history

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of the Third Reich is dramatic, it is violent and colourful.

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It deals with the war.

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This, in turn, has children interested in it.

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If you place that in the Welsh context,

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where you look at history between the two World Wars,

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the Depression, we had a great film on Senghenydd on television.

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It can be attractive.

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But you have to make it compulsory in order to ensure that.

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The resources aren't as rich,

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and naturally teachers, in order to get children

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to follow their courses, they are going to go after the shiny courses.

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As a result Welsh history is going to be pushed to the sidelines.

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This curriculum is much wider than it has been in the past.

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People are thinking about mathematics, sciences and so on.

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but saying that, history is just as important,

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if not more important, in making people understand where they

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have come from and making sure of their identity going to the future.

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Dr Elin Jones, you have written a report for the government on this.

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You obviously feel that isn't enough emphasis.

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No. It depends.

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In some schools they have structured the course that will have put

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Welsh history central to all subjects.

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The history curriculum asks for that to the be central to a course.

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But there is a lot of pressure on teachers from the mass media

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and resources available, as Hefin Matthias was saying,

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to give English history and international history more focus.

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They tend to forget where the children live.

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I think that the best history starts at your feet.

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It gives someone a safe foundation.

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You can look out onto the world knowing where you have come from.

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So start locally?

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Start at your feet.

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There is an old American saying, look for the me in museum.

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We should do the same here.

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It is very interesting, I was at the service in Senghenydd.

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There was a group of secondary school children there

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and it was obvious that they had a real interest in it.

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-But not every area has an incident like that.

-No.

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Not every area has a dramatic and tragic event

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that has a worldwide significance like Senghenydd.

0:20:030:20:06

But every small thing can bring us closer to the past.

0:20:060:20:10

Every area has its story.

0:20:110:20:14

Every area has its histories, and traditions and characters.

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It is a surprise in places we would not suspect,

0:20:180:20:23

there is something there.

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But you go there to find it.

0:20:240:20:27

Rhun ap Iorwerth, how would you strike the balance?

0:20:270:20:29

Schools have to create international citizens who can work worldwide.

0:20:290:20:35

If you concentrate on Anglesey too much you are not going to

0:20:350:20:39

learn about China. How do you strike the balance?

0:20:390:20:42

I totally agree that we have to start at our feet.

0:20:420:20:46

We have to know who we have been in order to consider

0:20:460:20:51

where we want to go in the future as a nation.

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We also have to remember that we are not talking about history

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as a subject, I'm going to use the word, cross-curricular.

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There are so many opportunities in other subjects

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to consider the local and the Welsh.

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That is what is so exciting about the Welsh curriculum

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and the ideas that have been presented in where

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Welsh history should be placed in the curriculum.

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But there are political choices here.

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To some extent I like what Elin said that there is a story

0:21:220:21:25

where we live, in one sense the memory creates the nation.

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If there is disagreement about what the nation is,

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is our nation Wales or Britain, there are two different stories.

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The more interpretations, the better.

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Otherwise you will be learning propaganda not history.

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My nationalism isn't a narrow nationalism.

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We're not talking about just learning about Welsh history,

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and just talking about Welsh history.

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It is important that it is put into its context and history

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from England, Europe, it is all put but the context is important.

0:21:580:22:03

People have been educated to forget who they are

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and where they've come from for far too long.

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Now is the time where there is real enthusiasm for it.

0:22:110:22:14

Elin Jones, how do you make history an attractive subject?

0:22:140:22:19

It is attractive but the emphasis now is on youth unemployment,

0:22:190:22:24

they want apprentices, they want something that will make sure

0:22:240:22:28

that is a job at the end of the studies.

0:22:280:22:30

Does history offer that?

0:22:300:22:33

Then in no assurances in any subject.

0:22:330:22:36

Literacy and numeracy are all-important

0:22:360:22:39

because they give you the skills, the tools to do any job.

0:22:390:22:43

But understanding your past can enrich your present.

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It can help you to understand which direction you want to go

0:22:480:22:52

to in the future.

0:22:520:22:54

It gives you an opportunity to think critically

0:22:540:22:56

and to consider what is being said.

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-Do politicians appreciate that?

-We shall see.

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We'll see what the Education Minister will do

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with the report we have given him.

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Is the standard of teaching of history more important?

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I remember in school we had a Welsh history teacher,

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and it was a separate subject back then.

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We had a very inspirational Welsh history teacher.

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There were some other history teachers who were fairly dull.

0:23:210:23:25

You need somebody who can tell a story.

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I'm not sure if you need someone who can tell a story

0:23:270:23:30

but you need somebody who can provoke and raise an interest

0:23:300:23:34

by playing historical games, if you like.

0:23:340:23:36

I have seen brilliant work being done there.

0:23:360:23:38

People go out to look for evidence for themselves

0:23:380:23:41

by looking at street signs and so forth.

0:23:410:23:43

It is a way to do it without saying stories.

0:23:430:23:47

As long as the teacher is enthusiastic for his or her subject

0:23:470:23:50

and can present that enthusiasm.

0:23:500:23:53

It doesn't matter what the topic is.

0:23:530:23:55

Better still if you have an holistic attitude in the school

0:23:550:23:58

which brings all the subjects together.

0:23:580:24:00

They need to show how one subject enriches another.

0:24:000:24:04

Michael Gove tried to do that, he tried to bring more British history

0:24:040:24:08

into the curriculum but he has had a rethink about that.

0:24:080:24:12

I think context is everything to me.

0:24:120:24:16

We need to have the Welsh context

0:24:160:24:18

and put us in our place in the world.

0:24:180:24:21

We need a curriculum for a 21st century devolved Wales.

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Many thanks for coming in and joining us for the programme tonight,

0:24:260:24:29

Dr Elin Jones and Rhun ap Iorwerth.

0:24:290:24:31

Vaughan Roderick and myself will be back next week.

0:24:310:24:35

Join us and for Y Sgwrs at the same time next week,

0:24:350:24:39

straight Newyddion 9 next Wednesday.

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But from all of us here, good evening.

0:24:430:24:46

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