Browse content similar to 16/10/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Welcome back. To what extent should politicians interfere in how we live? | 0:00:00 | 0:00:05 | |
Banning smoking, rising the price of alcohol. | 0:00:05 | 0:00:08 | |
Now, one party wants to have a levy on a bottle of pop. | 0:00:08 | 0:00:11 | |
Is the state mothering us? | 0:00:11 | 0:00:13 | |
We'll have the panel's opinion on Y Sgwrs. | 0:00:13 | 0:00:17 | |
Welcome to y Sgwrs. | 0:00:25 | 0:00:27 | |
A chance to discuss the controversial and the interesting | 0:00:27 | 0:00:30 | |
from the political world and beyond. | 0:00:30 | 0:00:33 | |
Here with me every week is Vaughan Roderick, our Welsh Affairs editor. | 0:00:33 | 0:00:36 | |
Also here is someone who's used to this studio, Rhun ap Iorwerth. | 0:00:36 | 0:00:42 | |
Welcome. He is the Plaid Cymru AM for Anglesey. | 0:00:42 | 0:00:46 | |
Historian Dr Elin Jones is also here, who has been prominent | 0:00:46 | 0:00:50 | |
on our screens recently as S4C marks the Senghenydd disaster this week. | 0:00:50 | 0:00:55 | |
We'll be discussing history and its role in our schools later. | 0:00:58 | 0:01:02 | |
But first let's talk about one of the biggest stories of the day | 0:01:02 | 0:01:05 | |
that we discussed on Newyddion 9 earlier. | 0:01:05 | 0:01:08 | |
Vaughan, this idea that we need more politicians down in the Bay. | 0:01:08 | 0:01:12 | |
-Where has this idea come from? -It isn't a new idea. | 0:01:12 | 0:01:16 | |
There is an artificial partition in the Chamber | 0:01:16 | 0:01:19 | |
and it can be taken out to make room for an extra 20 members. | 0:01:19 | 0:01:24 | |
That was a recommendation made by the Richard Commission, | 0:01:24 | 0:01:27 | |
if you remember. | 0:01:27 | 0:01:29 | |
But this report, the academic report, says | 0:01:29 | 0:01:31 | |
if you are going to have the proper scrutiny then you need 100 members. | 0:01:31 | 0:01:36 | |
But the same report says there are too many councillors in Wales. | 0:01:36 | 0:01:40 | |
More councillors in Wales than they have in Scotland. | 0:01:40 | 0:01:43 | |
The suggestion is that the number of councillors could be cut down | 0:01:43 | 0:01:48 | |
in order to have the resources to pay for more Assembly Members. | 0:01:48 | 0:01:52 | |
But in a time of cuts, persuading the people of Wales | 0:01:52 | 0:01:57 | |
-that this needs to be done will be a huge task. -Very difficult. | 0:01:57 | 0:02:00 | |
Rhun ap Iorwerth, you are new to the Assembly, are you drowning | 0:02:00 | 0:02:04 | |
under pressure of work? You are one of 60 members there. | 0:02:04 | 0:02:08 | |
Do we need any more there? | 0:02:08 | 0:02:10 | |
It is worth noting that this idea | 0:02:10 | 0:02:12 | |
hasn't come from inside the Assembly or from the political parties. | 0:02:12 | 0:02:16 | |
We are in the middle of a recession. | 0:02:16 | 0:02:20 | |
Ask anyone right across the world if they want you politicians, | 0:02:20 | 0:02:23 | |
I think the answer would be, no. | 0:02:23 | 0:02:25 | |
In my opinion I don't think it is a black and white matter. | 0:02:25 | 0:02:29 | |
There is a price for democracy, there is a price to be paid | 0:02:29 | 0:02:32 | |
for the type of democracy we need in Wales. | 0:02:32 | 0:02:35 | |
That discussion is going to start as the Assembly has more powers. | 0:02:35 | 0:02:39 | |
Do we need more members? | 0:02:39 | 0:02:41 | |
With more powers there is a strong argument to make sure | 0:02:41 | 0:02:45 | |
there is way of scrutinising the government | 0:02:45 | 0:02:47 | |
so that they can't do what they want to do, and also to make sure | 0:02:47 | 0:02:51 | |
that the assembly can cope with using | 0:02:51 | 0:02:54 | |
the new tax-raising powers effectively. | 0:02:54 | 0:02:57 | |
Dr Elin Jones, in Scotland they have 129 members. | 0:02:57 | 0:03:02 | |
Northern Ireland has 108 members. | 0:03:02 | 0:03:04 | |
If you look at 60 in Wales, it is weaker here. | 0:03:04 | 0:03:07 | |
The Welsh Parliament is a baby of an assembly. | 0:03:07 | 0:03:11 | |
Maybe it needs to grow like babies grow. | 0:03:11 | 0:03:13 | |
We need more powers. | 0:03:13 | 0:03:16 | |
But this business of councillors, the number of councillors, | 0:03:16 | 0:03:20 | |
that is very interesting as well as the number of councils. | 0:03:20 | 0:03:24 | |
I would strongly argue for the unification of some councils. | 0:03:24 | 0:03:28 | |
That is very expensive. | 0:03:28 | 0:03:30 | |
Yes, it is in the short term but we will save money in the long term. | 0:03:30 | 0:03:36 | |
We need the government itself closer to the people. | 0:03:36 | 0:03:39 | |
Remembering the stories today about the councils and cutting, | 0:03:39 | 0:03:43 | |
the time is right for reorganisation? | 0:03:43 | 0:03:46 | |
The problem is your organisation is costly in the short term. | 0:03:46 | 0:03:49 | |
But, certainly, there are expectations that some councils | 0:03:49 | 0:03:53 | |
will have to follow some councils in England | 0:03:53 | 0:03:56 | |
where they share the staff, they share the services | 0:03:56 | 0:04:00 | |
and only exist separately the constituency boundaries. | 0:04:00 | 0:04:03 | |
Many thanks. Are you a fan of pop? The drink that is. | 0:04:05 | 0:04:09 | |
If you are, you could be paying more for your lemonade | 0:04:09 | 0:04:12 | |
if Plaid Cymru have their way. | 0:04:12 | 0:04:14 | |
At the party's conference over the weekend | 0:04:14 | 0:04:16 | |
they revealed a new policy to raise a levy on sugary drinks | 0:04:16 | 0:04:20 | |
that will then go towards paying for 1,000 new doctors. | 0:04:20 | 0:04:23 | |
Is it a good idea? Or visit another example of politicians trying | 0:04:23 | 0:04:27 | |
to interfere in our daily lives? Aled ap Dafydd has this report. | 0:04:27 | 0:04:31 | |
We all drink them, some drink too much of them. | 0:04:38 | 0:04:42 | |
But is it the government's place to penalise us for making | 0:04:42 | 0:04:45 | |
decisions that could affect our health? | 0:04:45 | 0:04:48 | |
Families like the Williamses in Bangor | 0:04:51 | 0:04:55 | |
will be hit in the pocket by a tax on sugary drinks. | 0:04:55 | 0:04:59 | |
It is an effort to tackle obesity, that is the opinion in this home. | 0:04:59 | 0:05:03 | |
But... | 0:05:03 | 0:05:05 | |
I'm not sure if this is the answer. | 0:05:06 | 0:05:08 | |
They need to consider families. | 0:05:08 | 0:05:10 | |
For example, may be a can of Coke is a small treat for them. | 0:05:10 | 0:05:13 | |
If you think about it, they are going to add 40 pence | 0:05:13 | 0:05:16 | |
for a bottle of Coke. | 0:05:16 | 0:05:17 | |
A bottle of Coke for a family of four like us, | 0:05:17 | 0:05:20 | |
that is an extra two pounds a week just on pop. | 0:05:20 | 0:05:25 | |
But as I have said, maybe it is a good idea to try to create | 0:05:25 | 0:05:30 | |
jobs for doctors and so forth. | 0:05:30 | 0:05:32 | |
As we discuss the lemonade levy, | 0:05:34 | 0:05:37 | |
another term raises its ugly head again. The nanny state. | 0:05:37 | 0:05:42 | |
Is the government trying to control our daily lives | 0:05:42 | 0:05:44 | |
or working for the good of the population? | 0:05:44 | 0:05:47 | |
Some politicians have their sights on more than just sugary jinx. | 0:05:50 | 0:05:54 | |
The leader of Plaid Cymru, Leanne Wood, | 0:05:54 | 0:05:58 | |
hasn't disregarded the idea of raising tax on fatty foods. | 0:05:58 | 0:06:01 | |
But it raises the question, where is the line? | 0:06:02 | 0:06:05 | |
How far should the government go | 0:06:05 | 0:06:07 | |
while interfering in our everyday lives? | 0:06:07 | 0:06:10 | |
There is no boundary. | 0:06:13 | 0:06:15 | |
The government and the politicians have to find the right balance | 0:06:15 | 0:06:19 | |
and use the right resources to change people's opinions. | 0:06:19 | 0:06:22 | |
It is a matter of education, more than anything else. | 0:06:22 | 0:06:26 | |
But interfering isn't going to work. | 0:06:26 | 0:06:29 | |
It will alienate politicians away from people. | 0:06:29 | 0:06:33 | |
Even more so than present. | 0:06:33 | 0:06:36 | |
The Welsh Government hasn't been shy in trying to influence | 0:06:36 | 0:06:39 | |
people's lives. | 0:06:39 | 0:06:41 | |
After the smoking ban, then came the tax on plastic bags. | 0:06:41 | 0:06:46 | |
The Westminster government has suggested | 0:06:46 | 0:06:48 | |
tax cuts for married couples. | 0:06:48 | 0:06:50 | |
This DJ, Gareth Potter, | 0:06:52 | 0:06:54 | |
wasn't swayed by the government's interference. | 0:06:54 | 0:06:58 | |
But now he has welcomed the efforts by our politicians. | 0:06:58 | 0:07:02 | |
I used to have my headphones like that, a cigarette like that | 0:07:03 | 0:07:07 | |
and the deck there. That was the stance. | 0:07:07 | 0:07:11 | |
I used to smoke and listen. | 0:07:11 | 0:07:14 | |
It was part of the whole thing. | 0:07:15 | 0:07:17 | |
Once they brought in the smoking ban in the club, I thought great. | 0:07:19 | 0:07:25 | |
I totally stopped smoking then. | 0:07:25 | 0:07:28 | |
I am pleased I have done that. I thought I was total libertarian. | 0:07:30 | 0:07:34 | |
I just thought, if someone wants to do it, they can do it. | 0:07:34 | 0:07:36 | |
As long as they are not hurting anyone. | 0:07:36 | 0:07:39 | |
I do believe the government should do these things. | 0:07:39 | 0:07:41 | |
There are places where the government can interfere. | 0:07:41 | 0:07:43 | |
So, what next? | 0:07:43 | 0:07:45 | |
Is the health minister considering legislating where he feels | 0:07:45 | 0:07:48 | |
individuals are not taking enough personal responsibility? | 0:07:48 | 0:07:52 | |
I don't think we can legislate on everything. | 0:07:54 | 0:07:57 | |
I am not going to start with legislation. | 0:07:57 | 0:08:00 | |
But there is room for legislation as well. | 0:08:00 | 0:08:03 | |
As the Health Minister I am going to bring forward, | 0:08:03 | 0:08:05 | |
early on in the New Year, a white paper in the public health field. | 0:08:05 | 0:08:10 | |
In that white paper I hope we can suggest some practical things | 0:08:14 | 0:08:19 | |
we can do to help people. | 0:08:19 | 0:08:22 | |
Everything is on the menu. | 0:08:22 | 0:08:24 | |
Prepare for a healthier plate of food or higher prices. | 0:08:24 | 0:08:28 | |
Joining me just for this discussion is Dr Harri Pritchard | 0:08:31 | 0:08:35 | |
who is a GP on Anglesey. Welcome to you. | 0:08:35 | 0:08:39 | |
-Do you think this is a good idea? -Yes, I do. | 0:08:39 | 0:08:41 | |
I think, as doctors, we have to welcome anything | 0:08:41 | 0:08:44 | |
that will be part of something that will stop this obesity epidemic | 0:08:44 | 0:08:49 | |
that we have in Wales. | 0:08:49 | 0:08:51 | |
Somebody like Gareth Potter who has been turned | 0:08:51 | 0:08:55 | |
by this idea of the state interfering, welcomes that. | 0:08:55 | 0:08:59 | |
Is that what is at the root of this? | 0:08:59 | 0:09:02 | |
That the government needs guidelines? | 0:09:02 | 0:09:05 | |
I think the government is running everything in the country, | 0:09:05 | 0:09:08 | |
they decide where the money goes and what are the priorities for health. | 0:09:08 | 0:09:12 | |
We can't escape the fact that the government | 0:09:12 | 0:09:16 | |
has to have an important part of legislation | 0:09:16 | 0:09:20 | |
such as tax on alcohol, tax on tobacco | 0:09:20 | 0:09:24 | |
and new taxes in things like sugary drinks. | 0:09:24 | 0:09:28 | |
Rhun ap Iorwerth, how much would this raise? | 0:09:28 | 0:09:32 | |
It depends how effective it is. | 0:09:32 | 0:09:35 | |
The intention is to tackle obesity and so on. | 0:09:35 | 0:09:39 | |
If people carried on drinking as they do, | 0:09:39 | 0:09:44 | |
the markets would be worth £60 million of a levy in Wales. | 0:09:44 | 0:09:48 | |
But that is not the point, bringing in money is not the point. | 0:09:48 | 0:09:52 | |
But you say it is too pay for new doctors. | 0:09:52 | 0:09:55 | |
You need the money to come in. | 0:09:55 | 0:09:57 | |
It is some confusion about that. | 0:09:57 | 0:09:59 | |
We want employ 1,000 additional doctors | 0:09:59 | 0:10:01 | |
and that will cost about £60 million. | 0:10:01 | 0:10:03 | |
We think that this levy would bring in £60 million into Wales. | 0:10:03 | 0:10:06 | |
But people won't change their habits totally | 0:10:06 | 0:10:12 | |
and it will be a contribution. | 0:10:12 | 0:10:14 | |
-Was it a mistake to connect both things? -No. | 0:10:14 | 0:10:18 | |
If you connect both things, you are saying you have to still | 0:10:18 | 0:10:23 | |
drink Tizer and Dandelion & Burdock or we will have to sack doctors. | 0:10:23 | 0:10:26 | |
It doesn't surprise me that the political opposition | 0:10:26 | 0:10:29 | |
trying to make that point, just as Carwyn Jones made it, | 0:10:29 | 0:10:34 | |
quite laughably, in First Minister's Questions yesterday. | 0:10:34 | 0:10:38 | |
The point is there is a national problem here. | 0:10:38 | 0:10:42 | |
We need to tackle the national problem and what we have done | 0:10:42 | 0:10:47 | |
is offer a pioneering idea which has been widely welcomed. | 0:10:47 | 0:10:50 | |
It was very interesting to watch a network programme today | 0:10:50 | 0:10:55 | |
in England discussing this pop tax idea by Plaid Cymru. | 0:10:55 | 0:10:58 | |
They thought it was a good idea in order to tackle the problem. | 0:10:58 | 0:11:03 | |
It has been implemented in France... | 0:11:03 | 0:11:05 | |
It has been implemented in several places such as different | 0:11:05 | 0:11:08 | |
-states in America. -It isn't Plaid Cymru's original idea. | 0:11:08 | 0:11:11 | |
But what about this idea of freedom of the individual? | 0:11:11 | 0:11:14 | |
If the state tells us to do everything, isn't that dangerous? | 0:11:14 | 0:11:17 | |
I prefer that they look after our health | 0:11:17 | 0:11:20 | |
or they will waste our money on weapons for Afghanistan, | 0:11:20 | 0:11:22 | |
to be honest. | 0:11:22 | 0:11:24 | |
I see that savings can be made by money being saved in the NHS | 0:11:24 | 0:11:29 | |
that's dealing with diabetes and obesity and so forth. | 0:11:29 | 0:11:34 | |
I would welcome this. | 0:11:34 | 0:11:37 | |
But I think, just as Gareth Potter said, | 0:11:37 | 0:11:40 | |
the government runs our life anyway. | 0:11:40 | 0:11:43 | |
I'd prefer it they would that for my benefit | 0:11:43 | 0:11:47 | |
rather than the do it in order to pull young men into war | 0:11:47 | 0:11:50 | |
and waste it on the nonsense with the banks. | 0:11:50 | 0:11:53 | |
What we do have is this recent precedent with the plastic bags | 0:11:53 | 0:11:57 | |
where there have been changes. | 0:11:57 | 0:11:59 | |
Some people were very suspicious of it at the start | 0:11:59 | 0:12:04 | |
but it has changed people's habits. | 0:12:04 | 0:12:07 | |
We talk about the nanny state, we are not banning sugary drinks | 0:12:07 | 0:12:10 | |
but giving people the choice and make them think | 0:12:10 | 0:12:13 | |
through their pockets what is best for us. | 0:12:13 | 0:12:15 | |
But with the plastic bags, the plastic bags are five pence. | 0:12:15 | 0:12:18 | |
And seven pence on a can of drink. It is very similar. | 0:12:18 | 0:12:22 | |
No, it is not. | 0:12:22 | 0:12:24 | |
If you look at the own brands. | 0:12:24 | 0:12:27 | |
If you go to ASDA and Tesco, it is two pounds for eight litres. | 0:12:27 | 0:12:30 | |
If you are raising 40p a litre that is a significant price increase. | 0:12:30 | 0:12:35 | |
Yes, it is. But if you look at the shelves in the supermarkets | 0:12:35 | 0:12:39 | |
and there are things with high sugar and things with low sugar. | 0:12:39 | 0:12:44 | |
I would hope that people, by introducing this policy, | 0:12:44 | 0:12:47 | |
will change their habits | 0:12:47 | 0:12:49 | |
and think about their health before making the usual purchase. | 0:12:49 | 0:12:53 | |
Let's get the expert in here. Dr Pritchard. | 0:12:53 | 0:12:55 | |
What about this idea of recruiting 1,000 doctors? | 0:12:55 | 0:13:00 | |
You work on Anglesey, it isn't easy to get doctors there. | 0:13:00 | 0:13:03 | |
Do you think Plaid Cymru adding cloud cuckoo land here thinking that | 0:13:03 | 0:13:06 | |
doctors and living on trees? | 0:13:06 | 0:13:09 | |
I think it is a different argument to the sugar debate. | 0:13:09 | 0:13:13 | |
I don't know what is the connection between both. | 0:13:13 | 0:13:16 | |
As a doctor, I accept there is a lack of doctors in Wales | 0:13:16 | 0:13:19 | |
compared with England, but the major problem is | 0:13:19 | 0:13:22 | |
where will we find these thousand doctors? | 0:13:22 | 0:13:24 | |
There is already scarcity of doctors. | 0:13:24 | 0:13:27 | |
The other thing that is forgotten is a doctor does not come on his own. | 0:13:27 | 0:13:30 | |
Consultants need secretaries, they need people to work in offices | 0:13:30 | 0:13:34 | |
to make appointments in the clinics. | 0:13:34 | 0:13:37 | |
Surgeons need theatre time, they need theatre staff | 0:13:37 | 0:13:41 | |
and those resources cost much more than a single doctor. | 0:13:41 | 0:13:46 | |
Only a small percentage of the cost of getting the doctor | 0:13:46 | 0:13:50 | |
is the actual wage, there are resources attached. | 0:13:50 | 0:13:53 | |
-What do you say to that? -The point on recruitment is interesting. | 0:13:53 | 0:13:57 | |
It is something that I and many of my other Plaid Cymru members | 0:13:57 | 0:14:00 | |
are concentrating on. | 0:14:00 | 0:14:02 | |
It will be something that Harri will agree with. | 0:14:02 | 0:14:06 | |
There is a recruitment problem in North Wales because, | 0:14:06 | 0:14:09 | |
generally, people who go to medical school tend | 0:14:09 | 0:14:13 | |
to remain on the patch where they do their training. | 0:14:13 | 0:14:16 | |
We want to see much more training of doctors | 0:14:16 | 0:14:18 | |
so we can make sure that the professional doctors are there | 0:14:18 | 0:14:22 | |
to work in parts of Wales where there are recruitment problems. | 0:14:22 | 0:14:25 | |
We want to use fewer agency doctors and locums. | 0:14:25 | 0:14:29 | |
We need to train more. | 0:14:29 | 0:14:31 | |
We need to appoint more people as well. | 0:14:31 | 0:14:35 | |
Elin Jones, do you think there isn't a line to cross | 0:14:35 | 0:14:39 | |
on state interference? Or is there? | 0:14:39 | 0:14:41 | |
Many columnists in the Daily Mail, for example, say | 0:14:41 | 0:14:45 | |
before long they will tell us what to think not just to behave | 0:14:45 | 0:14:48 | |
and what to eat? | 0:14:48 | 0:14:50 | |
That is what the Daily Mail's work is. | 0:14:50 | 0:14:52 | |
Telling us how to think! | 0:14:52 | 0:14:54 | |
No, I wouldn't take the Daily Mail's advice. | 0:14:54 | 0:14:57 | |
I do feel that this is something that will benefit us. | 0:14:57 | 0:15:00 | |
It isn't something that will harm this that's done in other areas | 0:15:00 | 0:15:04 | |
with the government's money. | 0:15:04 | 0:15:07 | |
But don't you think, we were talking about smoking as an example, | 0:15:07 | 0:15:11 | |
that happened step-by-step. | 0:15:11 | 0:15:13 | |
I remember the days when people smoked in the offices here | 0:15:13 | 0:15:17 | |
and people were smoking in the back of aeroplanes. | 0:15:17 | 0:15:19 | |
That changed first, and then there were slow changes. | 0:15:19 | 0:15:24 | |
And then cigarette prices increase. | 0:15:24 | 0:15:27 | |
People's social attitudes towards smoking changed too. | 0:15:27 | 0:15:32 | |
There is nothing new in increasing the cost in order | 0:15:32 | 0:15:36 | |
to make people think about their habits. | 0:15:36 | 0:15:39 | |
Where there are movements within the British Isles towards putting | 0:15:39 | 0:15:42 | |
the increased price on alcohol, | 0:15:42 | 0:15:44 | |
the cost of cigarettes have increased, | 0:15:44 | 0:15:47 | |
we have another idea to make people think. | 0:15:47 | 0:15:50 | |
Dr Pritchard, this is Plaid Cymru's idea | 0:15:50 | 0:15:53 | |
and we need powers to raise taxes. | 0:15:53 | 0:15:56 | |
That is far away. | 0:15:56 | 0:15:58 | |
But what is your message to the Welsh Government? | 0:15:58 | 0:16:01 | |
What I would say is we need to look at it in an holistic way as well. | 0:16:01 | 0:16:06 | |
It isn't just sugar in drinks, we need to look at education, | 0:16:06 | 0:16:11 | |
and more importantly, after we had the budgets for the councils, | 0:16:11 | 0:16:17 | |
is our leisure centres. | 0:16:17 | 0:16:19 | |
It is easy enough to raise taxes on sugary drinks | 0:16:19 | 0:16:23 | |
without looking more on exercise | 0:16:23 | 0:16:27 | |
and the importance of keeping leisure centres open. | 0:16:27 | 0:16:33 | |
That's just as important or even more important than sugar in drinks. | 0:16:33 | 0:16:36 | |
We have to look at it in a much more holistic way | 0:16:36 | 0:16:40 | |
than just one small factor. | 0:16:40 | 0:16:43 | |
Dr Pritchard, many thanks for joining us. | 0:16:43 | 0:16:46 | |
This week we remembered the disaster in Universal Colliery | 0:16:46 | 0:16:50 | |
in Senghenydd 100 years ago. | 0:16:50 | 0:16:52 | |
In our media and I'm sure in our classrooms, the remembering | 0:16:52 | 0:16:57 | |
has brought the history of the community alive once again. | 0:16:57 | 0:17:01 | |
But there are concerns that not enough Welsh history | 0:17:01 | 0:17:04 | |
is being taught in our schools. | 0:17:04 | 0:17:07 | |
We'll discuss that later. | 0:17:07 | 0:17:09 | |
But first we will hear from the historian, Hefin Matthias. | 0:17:09 | 0:17:13 | |
We live in an very complex world. | 0:17:13 | 0:17:15 | |
The social world is even more complex. | 0:17:15 | 0:17:19 | |
History is the key to know this complex world. | 0:17:19 | 0:17:23 | |
We have a curriculum where Welsh history is important. | 0:17:23 | 0:17:27 | |
The biggest problem is that Welsh history, and history generally, | 0:17:27 | 0:17:31 | |
ends as a compulsively subject at the end of Key Stage Three. | 0:17:31 | 0:17:34 | |
What happens then is children have to choose history as an option. | 0:17:34 | 0:17:38 | |
If you place Welsh history in competition with | 0:17:38 | 0:17:41 | |
history on Hitler, for example, the whole history | 0:17:41 | 0:17:45 | |
of the Third Reich is dramatic, it is violent and colourful. | 0:17:45 | 0:17:49 | |
It deals with the war. | 0:17:49 | 0:17:51 | |
This, in turn, has children interested in it. | 0:17:51 | 0:17:54 | |
If you place that in the Welsh context, | 0:17:54 | 0:17:56 | |
where you look at history between the two World Wars, | 0:17:56 | 0:18:00 | |
the Depression, we had a great film on Senghenydd on television. | 0:18:00 | 0:18:04 | |
It can be attractive. | 0:18:04 | 0:18:06 | |
But you have to make it compulsory in order to ensure that. | 0:18:06 | 0:18:10 | |
The resources aren't as rich, | 0:18:10 | 0:18:12 | |
and naturally teachers, in order to get children | 0:18:12 | 0:18:16 | |
to follow their courses, they are going to go after the shiny courses. | 0:18:16 | 0:18:20 | |
As a result Welsh history is going to be pushed to the sidelines. | 0:18:20 | 0:18:25 | |
This curriculum is much wider than it has been in the past. | 0:18:25 | 0:18:28 | |
People are thinking about mathematics, sciences and so on. | 0:18:28 | 0:18:33 | |
but saying that, history is just as important, | 0:18:33 | 0:18:37 | |
if not more important, in making people understand where they | 0:18:37 | 0:18:40 | |
have come from and making sure of their identity going to the future. | 0:18:40 | 0:18:45 | |
Dr Elin Jones, you have written a report for the government on this. | 0:18:45 | 0:18:50 | |
You obviously feel that isn't enough emphasis. | 0:18:50 | 0:18:55 | |
No. It depends. | 0:18:55 | 0:18:57 | |
In some schools they have structured the course that will have put | 0:18:57 | 0:19:00 | |
Welsh history central to all subjects. | 0:19:00 | 0:19:02 | |
The history curriculum asks for that to the be central to a course. | 0:19:02 | 0:19:07 | |
But there is a lot of pressure on teachers from the mass media | 0:19:07 | 0:19:12 | |
and resources available, as Hefin Matthias was saying, | 0:19:12 | 0:19:15 | |
to give English history and international history more focus. | 0:19:15 | 0:19:19 | |
They tend to forget where the children live. | 0:19:19 | 0:19:23 | |
I think that the best history starts at your feet. | 0:19:23 | 0:19:26 | |
It gives someone a safe foundation. | 0:19:26 | 0:19:28 | |
You can look out onto the world knowing where you have come from. | 0:19:28 | 0:19:33 | |
So start locally? | 0:19:33 | 0:19:36 | |
Start at your feet. | 0:19:36 | 0:19:37 | |
There is an old American saying, look for the me in museum. | 0:19:37 | 0:19:41 | |
We should do the same here. | 0:19:41 | 0:19:43 | |
It is very interesting, I was at the service in Senghenydd. | 0:19:43 | 0:19:48 | |
There was a group of secondary school children there | 0:19:48 | 0:19:51 | |
and it was obvious that they had a real interest in it. | 0:19:51 | 0:19:55 | |
-But not every area has an incident like that. -No. | 0:19:55 | 0:19:59 | |
Not every area has a dramatic and tragic event | 0:19:59 | 0:20:03 | |
that has a worldwide significance like Senghenydd. | 0:20:03 | 0:20:06 | |
But every small thing can bring us closer to the past. | 0:20:06 | 0:20:10 | |
Every area has its story. | 0:20:11 | 0:20:14 | |
Every area has its histories, and traditions and characters. | 0:20:14 | 0:20:18 | |
It is a surprise in places we would not suspect, | 0:20:18 | 0:20:23 | |
there is something there. | 0:20:23 | 0:20:24 | |
But you go there to find it. | 0:20:24 | 0:20:27 | |
Rhun ap Iorwerth, how would you strike the balance? | 0:20:27 | 0:20:29 | |
Schools have to create international citizens who can work worldwide. | 0:20:29 | 0:20:35 | |
If you concentrate on Anglesey too much you are not going to | 0:20:35 | 0:20:39 | |
learn about China. How do you strike the balance? | 0:20:39 | 0:20:42 | |
I totally agree that we have to start at our feet. | 0:20:42 | 0:20:46 | |
We have to know who we have been in order to consider | 0:20:46 | 0:20:51 | |
where we want to go in the future as a nation. | 0:20:51 | 0:20:55 | |
We also have to remember that we are not talking about history | 0:20:55 | 0:20:59 | |
as a subject, I'm going to use the word, cross-curricular. | 0:20:59 | 0:21:04 | |
There are so many opportunities in other subjects | 0:21:04 | 0:21:07 | |
to consider the local and the Welsh. | 0:21:07 | 0:21:11 | |
That is what is so exciting about the Welsh curriculum | 0:21:11 | 0:21:14 | |
and the ideas that have been presented in where | 0:21:14 | 0:21:17 | |
Welsh history should be placed in the curriculum. | 0:21:17 | 0:21:20 | |
But there are political choices here. | 0:21:20 | 0:21:22 | |
To some extent I like what Elin said that there is a story | 0:21:22 | 0:21:25 | |
where we live, in one sense the memory creates the nation. | 0:21:25 | 0:21:30 | |
If there is disagreement about what the nation is, | 0:21:30 | 0:21:33 | |
is our nation Wales or Britain, there are two different stories. | 0:21:33 | 0:21:38 | |
The more interpretations, the better. | 0:21:38 | 0:21:41 | |
Otherwise you will be learning propaganda not history. | 0:21:41 | 0:21:44 | |
My nationalism isn't a narrow nationalism. | 0:21:44 | 0:21:48 | |
We're not talking about just learning about Welsh history, | 0:21:48 | 0:21:51 | |
and just talking about Welsh history. | 0:21:51 | 0:21:53 | |
It is important that it is put into its context and history | 0:21:53 | 0:21:58 | |
from England, Europe, it is all put but the context is important. | 0:21:58 | 0:22:03 | |
People have been educated to forget who they are | 0:22:03 | 0:22:08 | |
and where they've come from for far too long. | 0:22:08 | 0:22:11 | |
Now is the time where there is real enthusiasm for it. | 0:22:11 | 0:22:14 | |
Elin Jones, how do you make history an attractive subject? | 0:22:14 | 0:22:19 | |
It is attractive but the emphasis now is on youth unemployment, | 0:22:19 | 0:22:24 | |
they want apprentices, they want something that will make sure | 0:22:24 | 0:22:28 | |
that is a job at the end of the studies. | 0:22:28 | 0:22:30 | |
Does history offer that? | 0:22:30 | 0:22:33 | |
Then in no assurances in any subject. | 0:22:33 | 0:22:36 | |
Literacy and numeracy are all-important | 0:22:36 | 0:22:39 | |
because they give you the skills, the tools to do any job. | 0:22:39 | 0:22:43 | |
But understanding your past can enrich your present. | 0:22:43 | 0:22:48 | |
It can help you to understand which direction you want to go | 0:22:48 | 0:22:52 | |
to in the future. | 0:22:52 | 0:22:54 | |
It gives you an opportunity to think critically | 0:22:54 | 0:22:56 | |
and to consider what is being said. | 0:22:56 | 0:22:59 | |
-Do politicians appreciate that? -We shall see. | 0:22:59 | 0:23:03 | |
We'll see what the Education Minister will do | 0:23:03 | 0:23:05 | |
with the report we have given him. | 0:23:05 | 0:23:07 | |
Is the standard of teaching of history more important? | 0:23:07 | 0:23:11 | |
I remember in school we had a Welsh history teacher, | 0:23:11 | 0:23:15 | |
and it was a separate subject back then. | 0:23:15 | 0:23:18 | |
We had a very inspirational Welsh history teacher. | 0:23:18 | 0:23:21 | |
There were some other history teachers who were fairly dull. | 0:23:21 | 0:23:25 | |
You need somebody who can tell a story. | 0:23:25 | 0:23:27 | |
I'm not sure if you need someone who can tell a story | 0:23:27 | 0:23:30 | |
but you need somebody who can provoke and raise an interest | 0:23:30 | 0:23:34 | |
by playing historical games, if you like. | 0:23:34 | 0:23:36 | |
I have seen brilliant work being done there. | 0:23:36 | 0:23:38 | |
People go out to look for evidence for themselves | 0:23:38 | 0:23:41 | |
by looking at street signs and so forth. | 0:23:41 | 0:23:43 | |
It is a way to do it without saying stories. | 0:23:43 | 0:23:47 | |
As long as the teacher is enthusiastic for his or her subject | 0:23:47 | 0:23:50 | |
and can present that enthusiasm. | 0:23:50 | 0:23:53 | |
It doesn't matter what the topic is. | 0:23:53 | 0:23:55 | |
Better still if you have an holistic attitude in the school | 0:23:55 | 0:23:58 | |
which brings all the subjects together. | 0:23:58 | 0:24:00 | |
They need to show how one subject enriches another. | 0:24:00 | 0:24:04 | |
Michael Gove tried to do that, he tried to bring more British history | 0:24:04 | 0:24:08 | |
into the curriculum but he has had a rethink about that. | 0:24:08 | 0:24:12 | |
I think context is everything to me. | 0:24:12 | 0:24:16 | |
We need to have the Welsh context | 0:24:16 | 0:24:18 | |
and put us in our place in the world. | 0:24:18 | 0:24:21 | |
We need a curriculum for a 21st century devolved Wales. | 0:24:21 | 0:24:26 | |
Many thanks for coming in and joining us for the programme tonight, | 0:24:26 | 0:24:29 | |
Dr Elin Jones and Rhun ap Iorwerth. | 0:24:29 | 0:24:31 | |
Vaughan Roderick and myself will be back next week. | 0:24:31 | 0:24:35 | |
Join us and for Y Sgwrs at the same time next week, | 0:24:35 | 0:24:39 | |
straight Newyddion 9 next Wednesday. | 0:24:39 | 0:24:43 | |
But from all of us here, good evening. | 0:24:43 | 0:24:46 |