06/11/2013 Y Sgwrs

Welcome back. Town or country?

People are worried that the countryside suffers the most

as services are cut across Wales.

We've asked for people's views in the area where Y Sgwrs is filmed.

The countryside, taxes and the odd French lesson.

Plenty to discuss with our Welsh Affairs Editor Vaughan Roderick

and our guests, the Tory MP for Aberconwy, Guto Bebb,

the broadcaster Beti George and, joining us from Bangor,

Gareth Wyn Jones, a farmer from Llanfairfechan,

who is NFU Wales and Principality Rural Communities Champion.

We will have a word with them shortly.

But we heard last week that the Welsh government's new borrowing powers

could be used to improve the M4 near Newport.

Where would that leave remote areas

that aren't located on the motorway's corridor?

With some rural buses services disappearing

and local authorities having to make cuts,

there are calls tonight for a new agency to be created

to protect the interests of Wales's rural areas.

But is the countryside at a disadvantage?

Aled ap Dafydd went to find out.

Rural Wales is portrayed as isolated and sinister

in a new drama on this channel, but is it accurate?

How bleak is it beyond the cities?

On Wednesdays and Thursdays, you may as well put a sign up

saying, 'Town closed'.

You know... things are so quiet.

There's nobody about.

The butcher says the knife has been stuck into rural services.

Gary Jones bought the business seven years ago but it is hard work.

The banks have closed.

I don't know what they're doing to attract people to small villages.

You don't see anyone on a Wednesday or Thursday.

Many rural communities feel they are fighting against the tide.

This village saw the council office close recently.

Can I send that registered?

The Post Office is now one of the cornerstones of the rural society.

It has inherited other duties to keep services in the area.

We now accept council tax payments from the public.

Local schools pay their lunch money

in here as well.

They were taken to the local authority office before.

18 miles north, it's a similar situation.

Arriva will not provide a service in the New Year

on the portion of their network

that links Aberystwyth and many nearby towns.

I will have to pay more for buses and to travel in the car.

I'm not sure what I will do.

We're losing services.

We have already lost the council services

in Tregaron, where I live.

We are losing everything, to be honest.

Everything is disappearing one after the other.

In small villages, in rural towns,

people are aware that they may be losing out.

The first to suffer and cuts and the last to see any investment.

Which raises the question for experts,

how can things be fairer for the countryside?

Almost ten years ago, Rhodri Morgan made the boastful decision

to close down the Welsh Development Agency

Part of that agency was the Rural Wales Development Agency.

Nothing has taken its place.

I'm not talking about setting up the same thing again

but I believe it is clear that something is needed.

A new agency - more innovative, more flexible.

Esther Prytherch and her husband made the leap from the city

to the countryside ten years ago.

Leaving the media industry in Cardiff

for a pub in Llanfihangel y Creuddyn near Aberystwyth.

I can see the argument.

We have decided to live in rural Wales, we have to pay the price.

But there isn't room for everybody in the city.

The population in rural areas, if you consider the towns

and villages around Aberystwyth, for example,

can have enough critical mass to justify fair services

for people who pay the same level of tax.

The countryside or a hinterland?

It will take more than a detective to answer the question.

Aled ap Dafydd is not quite DCI Mathias.

Vaughan, do these statistics show rural areas are suffering

more and more under these cuts?

One thing has been happening for many years.

The formula for funding local government has changed

in a way that mans that some councils in poor urban areas,

particularly in the valleys, have benefited

to the detriment of some rural councils.

But it's more difficult for rural councils to make cuts

during difficult economic times.

If you think of a rural council with two leisure centres,

it's difficult to close one of them.

If you are an urban council,

you may have a number of similar facilities in close proximity.

That's the problem in many rural areas.

Gareth Wyn Jones, do you feel that politicians

tend to forget about the countryside?

Yes, certainly.

There is talk of the library being closed in Llanfairfechan

and public toilets being handed over to community councils.

There is no talk of money coming in.

They are stopping all kinds of services

for people living in rural areas, I feel.

There is a difference between us in the north as well

and what's happening in the south.

A lot of money seems to be going into the south

and not so much coming up north.

There's a north-south divide and it's not helping us.

Beti George, as someone who grew up in the countryside

but now lives in the city,

you must have strong cities to keep the wheels turning.

Yes, that's true,

but I still have a strong connection with the rural areas.

A lot of older people live in rural areas.

How on earth can they survive?

They may reach the day when they can't drive.

Who is going to take them to the doctor?

Society has changed.

I know a lot of people who still live in the area where I am from.

They say they feel like strangers in their own communities

because society has changed so much.

It's probably the fault of people like myself who have moved away,

but how they cope, I'm not sure.

Health services, social services -

they are few and far between in rural areas.

-What's the answer?

-There is a problem and people need to cooperate.

Llanfairfechan is a good example because the HSBC has pulled out.

The Post Office has had to take over banking responsibilities.

In the Conwy Valley, the most rural area in my constituency,

the local council has reached an agreement with a local bus company

to allow young people to travel for a pound.

It's fine for a pensioner with a free bus pass,

but young people also need support.

The fact a company from Llanrwst and the council

offer that provision is to be welcomed.

But I do accept that the challenge is a difficult one.

Gareth Wyn Jones, some would argue that if you have the beauty

and tranquillity of the countryside, you have to accept fewer services.

Oh, yeah, and elderly people have to walk everywhere

and we don't have a library and we miss out on other services.

We need fairness across the board.

To be honest, we are being treated as second-class citizens

here in north Wales with a lot of things.

Guto mentioned what we did with the bank and it was a good thing.

We are trying to get people to take over the running of the library

and the public toilets.

Working together, the people of Llanfairfechan

will keep the village going.

We have been stopped from cutting public pathways

throughout Conwy because money has run out.

Things like that... I don't know how we move forward.

We need people to come and walk around our villages

but without attractions, nobody will want to come.

It's costing us money in the rural economy.

We are losing out.

We need to get ourselves out of this hole.

Ask people who live in the area, we will have to take responsibility.

Not those sitting on their backsides in the Assembly.

What about the politicians in the Assembly?

Vaughan, is the countryside important to Labour?

There isn't much support.

When it comes to elections,

rural areas are less important to Labour

than the three other parties.

They Welsh Government would say that they are investing

in every policy to discover the needs of rural areas.

They would say they're investing a lot to make sure

that things like broadband is available in rural areas.

That could help some people when it comes to services.

Things like telemedicine.

But that isn't necessarily a good thing for older people,

who may not understand that technology.

Beti, is it true that everything flows towards Cardiff?

I mentioned that it's difficult for the elderly in rural areas.

There are pockets in Cardiff as well where elderly people

are isolated, lonely and they don't have the services they require.

Thanks. Time to move on to the latest milestone

on the winding road of devolution.

David Cameron has announced new financial powers

for the Welsh Government.

Today we are announcing more power for the Welsh people

and the Welsh Government.

I believe in devolution. It is right to give people in Wales more power

and control over the future and over their government.

It is disappointing when it comes to air tax,

but this is a complete package for Wales

and something we can use in the future for the benefit

of the people of Wales.

I do not believe my constituents would vote

for those income tax powers in current circumstances.

The last thing that would be sensible, I believe,

for anybody in a position of leadership to do is to say,

let's have these powers without addressing Barnett.

That is what happened.

Thank you to Gareth Wyn Jones, who has now left us.

Vaughan, when it comes to the referendum on income tax,

it seems unlikely at the moment.

Yes.

But some said that the one held in 2011

wouldn't come for another decade.

That is what Peter Hain said when the measure was introduced in 2006.

These things can change and move more quickly

once the machinery is in place.

But there is a problem in holding this referendum

if Labour decide they don't want to.

We haven't seen the plans.

There could be a threshold of 40 votes in the Assembly

to call a referendum.

That pretty much gives Labour a veto.

And would the other parties want to call a referendum

if they thought Labour would campaign for a No vote.

It's unlikely.

Currently it looks unlikely, but who knows?

These things can build up momentum when they are on the statute books.

Why is David Cameron giving this right for a referendum?

He says there needs to be some accountability.

I think it is a very important step.

It is now a matter for the Assembly

whether it wants to have a referendum or not.

But the Welsh Government says there isn't enough funding

from Westminster.

It's going to be an empty argument

because the Assembly will have the powers now.

This is a significant change because it means

the Assembly has to justify

why they won't ask for those powers.

I can't understand why there is a need for a referendum.

We live in an age when a referendum decides everything.

We elect our MPs and Assembly Members.

I'm willing to give them the responsibility

to decide whether we need income tax powers are not.

Some would argue tat there's more justification for this referendum

than the one we had in 2011,

because the question had been asked in Scotland in '97.

I do have sympathy for the argument for a referendum.

There is more justification with income tax...

But why have a referendum?

It's established that we have referendums

on constitutional changes.

The Prime Minister could take us to war, according to tradition,

but that won't happen because of what happened with Tony Blair.

We have developed this idea that if it is constitutional change,

we must debate with the public.

If people want to see the Assembly develop,

then we have to be confident of selling this message.

Beti, are you against a referendum

because you support further devolution?

I want to give the people we elect the power to make these decisions.

What's the point electing them if they won't take the responsibility?

Also... of course we need powers over income tax.

That is what... it's something we must have is we're...

And increase the tax?

That is the worry.

At the moment, the economic climate is tough and nobody would dare

increase the income tax,

but you could argue that they could cut it in Wales.

What's the maths here, Vaughan?

What's interesting is that, because the tax base is so weak in Wales,

if you talk to economists, what they is that we can't say

the thing that would make a difference in Wales

would be to cut the higher rate of tax.

But not many people pay that.

They want to attract people from affluent areas

like Bristol and the Cotswolds to invest in areas like Monmouthshire

but no government would do that, even if the Conservatives won.

These tax powers have been available in Scotland since devolution

but they haven't used them.

But it has created a mature politics in Scotland.

They don't blame Westminster but discuss how they can use the powers.

That is the significant change.

The powers will be available for the Assembly

to call a referendum on income tax.

If they don't, they have to be more effective.

If there was someone here from True Wales who was against this,

like David Davies from your party, saying this is a slippery slope,

but these powers have come from David Cameron.

I don't know how we can argue in favour of making decisions

at a local level in England but against greater devolution.

I think the message from the Prime Minister this week

is consistent with developing powers at a regional level.

It's a natural step forward.

It's also a step towards more mature politics in Wales.

In a word, when will this referendum be held?

A long time after my retirement, I'm sure.

That's the simple answer.

I'm sure you will still be sitting in the seat,

as Beti did before you.

I cannot face a referendum without Vaughan Roderick.

How effective is the Welsh language at adapting to modern life?

One commentator says it's time to look to France for ideas concerning

retaining standards and also getting more people to use the language.

Just a warning, one of these accents may cause distress.

SHE READS IN FRENCH

The original would be much easier, but novels like this,

John Grisham or Dan Brown, sell millions of copies,

translated into all kinds of languages.

There's an argument that the way to get more people reading Welsh

is to translate books like the Da Vinci Code or 50 Shades Of Grey.

What is the Welsh word for "the associate"?

In an article for the Institute of Welsh Affairs,

Rhys David argues that we could learn from the way French

has taken advantage of Anglo-American culture.

A lot of good books and great programmes

are produced in Wales.

But the subject matter is restricted and the canvas can be quite limited.

Too limited, in my opinion,

to meet the needs of people these days.

If we want people to be able to live through the medium of Welsh,

they will need to go further than what we have available

in Wales today.

I do think it's worth translating popular English books

into Welsh, such as John Grisham and Dan Brown.

They're all translated.

A famous story is that Dan Brown locked his translators

in one room so they couldn't give the story away.

That would set Welsh alongside the other languages on this platform.

But it shouldn't be to the detriment of creating new works in Welsh.

We've shown that we've got a rich literary base here

and it's worth creating Welsh language novels which can be

different to other things in the world.

We can contribute to world literature and that's all important.

If we lose that, then it's all over.

Rhys David also says that a special body is needed to create new

terms and maintaining standards, similar to the Academie Francaise.

But according to Aneirin Karadog,

the process in Welsh has been less formal.

I think we create terms when necessary

so we can indicate linguistically what's in front of us.

If we look at rugby, Eic Davies, Huw Llywelyn Davies' father,

created all the terms that are now common and natural to the ear

when you hear them being used in rugby commentary.

Mewnwr, maswr, wythwr, canolwr, yr olwyr, y cefnwyr.

But we don't have an organisation as such.

Maybe one is needed.

But if we look at the L'Academie Francaise,

if there's a body that isn't connected to its people,

maybe that's it.

-I've just learned that Beti George hasn't read 50 Shades of Grey.

-No.

But she's had 50 nights with Dewi Llwyd!

Could it be translated into Welsh? Have you read it?

I have to admit that I have read it in English.

-Would it be easy to translate?

-I wouldn't try!

When it comes to reading books that have been translated,

would you enjoy it, Beti?

I read translated novels all the time in English.

Those are translated foreign novels.

I think that I'd prefer it...

..if English novels weren't translated into Welsh.

I don't know why.

I think it's because we have so many authors these days

and we have a high standard.

Books come out like sausages these days.

What's interesting, and I don't remember the exact figures,

I remember reading that about 80% of the books translated in the world

are books translated from English into other languages.

The number is very low for those being translated the other way.

Maybe we should look for other books in other languages that

-haven't been translated.

-That's what I'm reading in English.

I'd welcome them in Welsh.

What about standards, Guto Bebb? Do we need an Academie Francaise?

We have the dictionary. We should let Bruce do all the work!

I think translating popular English novels into Welsh is a mistake.

When Mankell came out and it was translated from Swedish

into English, there was no reason why we couldn't do it into Welsh.

With the success they've had that could have worked.

In the way there is an incredible book that was translated into Welsh.

John Rowlands translated one of John Rankin's first novels.

But that was before Rankin became famous.

It can work because it led me to the rest of Rebus's novels.

But on the whole I think it would be a mistake to translate

popular English novels.

Beti, recently in Newyddion we were looking for a Welsh word for "trolls"

on Twitter or cyberbullying.

Is the language developing quickly enough?

I don't know if it's developing quickly enough

but it is developing quicker than it was.

There used to be committees that decided which word would be

suitable. But now we have Twitter.

-It's a help.

-But is it helpful?

Is Welsh moving fast enough?

What's interesting is, I see children in my family

and what they use to tweet is the oral language.

It's as if they're talking.

But I think that Twitter will lead to compact verbs being obsolete.

In order to get everything to fit in...

I need a translator to understand my daughter's text messages.

They're written in Caernarfon language as well!

I accept that point.

But is there a role here for the Commissioner?

No, I don't think so.

I think it develops naturally.

English develops so quickly.

How many new words are created every day?

It's difficult for us to catch up with all of them in Welsh.

But I do think it happens naturally through things like Twitter.

People suggest words.

I remember when the word "television" was created,

there were committees galore to try and find the correct word.

Quickly, Vaughan, the language needs to move forward.

You need a richness of language as well.

My personal crusade is to bring back "trengholiad" for "quest".

I love that word.

Many thanks for your company tonight.

That's all from Y Sgwrs for tonight.

Thank you to our guests and to you for your company.

From all of us here, good night.