22/01/2014 Y Sgwrs

Welcome back. A challenge for you.

It appears there are more than 900 public bodies in Wales.

But how many of them can you name and what do they all do?

Vaughan is here to mark tonight's answers on Y Sgwrs.

Don't worry too much if you can't name every public body in Wales.

But Vaughan, of course, can name all 935 of them.

-Of course.

-In alphabetical order.

I'm sure Nerys Evans can too, a member of the Williams Commission

which has been looking at our councils and public bodies.

She is also a former Plaid Cymru AM.

Also here is Bethan Darwin, a solicitor in Cardiff,

and joining us from Bangor is businessman Gari Wyn.

Welcome to you all.

The future of our county councils has received a lot of attention

after the Williams Commission recommended cutting the current 22

down to 12 or fewer as soon as possible.

The commission also looked at Welsh public bodies in general.

It is a complicated picture.

There are hundreds of them. But are they all needed?

Janet Ebenezer has been to the heart of Ceredigion to hear people's views.

How did you manage to pull that load down on top of you?

I saw the stack wobbling.

I climbed to the top, close to the zinc roof.

I don't like heights.

Here are some of Pontrhydfendigaid's residents.

They are rehearsing their play, "Profi'r Pils".

The play is about a bull which has failed to conceive.

The farmer has found special pills that will help solve the problem.

But it's possible that we'll need more than pills

to make sense of all the public bodies currently operating in Wales.

Earlier this week, the Williams Commission unveiled its plan

for council mergers.

It recommended merging Ceredigion with Pembrokeshire

and possibly with Carmarthenshire as well.

But do the actors here believe that is a good idea?

If it means, in the long run, that we will save money

and that there will be improvements to our amenities

as well as improvements to the services we get from the councils,

such as hospital services, transport, and so on,

it will be for the best.

They're going to be big, when maybe we should have smaller units.

We have community councils that are, unfortunately, losing power.

I've been a councillor for many years

and these councils have lost their power.

They'll only be meeting soon to make sure the grass is cut

and that the lights come on.

I can't see that giving all the power to large councils

will help us.

This report says there are many public bodies in Wales.

You have very large and very small ones.

There are at least 935 of them in total.

They are responsible for things like education, health or housing.

You also have all the councils and the Assembly.

For Pontrhydfendigaid, here are some of the public bodies

which are responsible for different aspects in residents' lives.

But that's not the half of it.

Are you clear on what these bodies do for you and for your community?

There is a list there, but it is a short one

compared to the total number of councils that exist.

But the main reason for councils is to take action

in order to get results.

Because we have so many councils and reporting back and forth,

decisions aren't taken with one so it has to go to another,

so the whole thing, including the personnel attending the meetings,

the costs involved with the meetings,

means time, months, are spent before we get results.

It's important to have these meetings,

but one meeting leads to another,

then you have to report back.

Perhaps we could cut that through better co-operation.

There's too much bureaucracy, too many people in suits at meetings,

they talk a lot, but they don't take action.

We need more action and cut back at the top.

The workers are facing cuts at the moment.

I would say that we need to cut back on some of the larger wages.

There are too many people on large incomes.

By merging public bodies, we should hopefully have less managers

and fewer large incomes.

Hopefully, we as communities should benefit from this.

You work for the council,

how will cutting the number of councils affect you?

I remember working for Dyfed Council before.

We were better off when the three counties were one.

The workers, certainly, were much better off.

Will the Williams Commission receive support?

How many councils will there be in Wales?

And will the bull hit his mark?

Janet Ebenezer and the people of Pontrhydfendigaid.

Vaughan, at least 935 public bodies in Wales.

On page 355 of the Williams Commission report,

there is a diagram and this is it.

Do you understand this diagram? Here it is.

This glorious chart of Welsh public bodies.

The only political chart which is more complicated than this

is the one which shows the Liberal Democrats' disciplinary procedures.

I must say that's much worse!

We are looking at a situation where everybody talks about

the need for co-operation and more co-ordination

but that is very difficult with so many bodies.

but getting rid of these bodies doesn't always solve the problem.

Do you remember the bonfire of the Quangos?

Rhodri Morgan wanted to get rid of them by merging them

and bringing everything together under one roof.

Talking to people involved with economic development,

they'd tell you that the new system is less effective

than the old system which had bodies such as the WDA.

There are now calls for the old system to be recreated.

The point is, the point they're making

is that you don't just have to get rid of bodies,

but you must put in a new system which is more efficient.

Cutting the numbers doesn't necessarily solve the problem,

but I don't think anyone can argue sensibly

for councils the size of Merthyr, Blaenau Gwent

and, population-wise, Anglesey.

Nerys, as a member of this commission,

you found it difficult to find a list of all these bodies.

It doesn't exits, does it?

I believe that speaks volumes concerning the public sector's size.

The commission's remit was wide - to look at how the public sector

is implemented and how is it governed.

As well as this diagram, we have another one.

I would recommend that everyone reads the whole report.

It shows how many partnerships are available.

We have many small groups in Wales.

There is a diagram, which looks like spaghetti,

showing how people have to work with the different bodies.

Many chief executives from different groups told us

that more than half their time was spent on these partnerships.

We have to think about the waste in governance that this leads to.

Because money is going to be so tight,

that money needs to go to the front line.

Gari Wyn, as a businessman, what do you make of all these committees?

I'm not an expert on local government,

but I am aware of the effect councils have on our lives.

We could lose about 15,000 council workers in Wales

over a short period, possibly within three years,

and the starting cost could be something between

£200 million and £400 million.

Those costs will be carried through to business rates

and domestic taxes

could increase by at least 1.5% to 2%.

So is the public sector fine as it is?

I'm not saying that.

I'm just concerned about having the right people to move this forwards.

Are we changing for geographical and logistic reasons

or do we truly have the correct mindset

so that we have the right people managing this step,

that we have the right leaders, especially councillors.

Do we elect our councillors

and think carefully about whether these councillors

will be able to make these decisions

to look after social services and every other department?

I'd like to bring Bethan in because you work in the private sector.

You are also on a number of public bodies.

How do you compare both sectors?

The private sector has already gone through this process

of bringing things together to make savings.

There are fewer workers, because of the extra costs.

The system is very complicated.

I believe service users just want to know if the service is available

and on time.

But they also want to save money and face fewer costs.

Sometimes, those things conflict.

You may need to make big changes, which cost a lot of money,

but it may lead to better efficiency in the end.

People are worried about jobs, of course.

What is the mindset about committee's in Wales?

Many people take pride in working in the public sector.

Enterprise is a dirty word for many in Wales, unfortunately.

I won't name the council, but there was one Welsh council

about 15 years ago, which established a sub-committee

to consider how to cut the number of committees.

That sub-committee was a permanent one!

That is, Wales enjoys having committees.

It goes based on life in chapel, as far as I can tell.

But if you look at us, Wales is a small country

with a population of around three million.

That population may be spread out,

but I'm sure we could cut the number of public bodies that we have.

But, as I said, if you do that on a whim,

without a detailed plan in place...

There are parts of the report which deals with this,

but they haven't had much attention.

These parts talk about finance and so on.

If you don't have a system that can operate,

there's no point changing at all.

As Gari suggested, the starting costs are very high,

before the savings are delivered.

The Williams Commission had a broad remit.

We looked at how we could improve services for people in Wales,

not just boundaries on a map.

there are clear differences between authorities in Wales.

In one authority, you could wait a year longer than another

for changes to your house.

Or you may be twice as likely

of contracting MRSA in one health authority than in another.

The Williams Commission looked at everything

and we concluded that we needed larger local authority units

so that front-line services would get the correct funding

to protect those jobs.

The estimate concerning jobs was done way before we reported.

It is not based on the facts that have come out from the commission.

Gari Wyn, George Osborne wants to cut the public sector

and he believes the private sector will grow and replace it.

That is happening, the figures suggest so.

The figures do suggest this.

But it has to happen.

Only a quarter of the Welsh Government's income

is paid for through businesses and domestic taxes.

75% currently comes through public grants.

How long will that last?

What worries me, within this report,

the Welsh Government has given five proposals.

There is one which is very relevant to S4C viewers.

There is a clause which says they are looking at the counties

which are Welsh-speaking in nature

and those which are English-speaking separately.

I believe that segregates us.

It could, possibly, open the floodgates to create a feeling

within predominantly English-speaking counties,

that they do not have a duty towards Welsh speakers.

Nerys, would you like to answer this as a member of the commission?

That wasn't the intention.

We were looking at protecting areas like Gwynedd,

where people work through the medium of Welsh,

to make sure a larger authority protects that policy

and that it can be expanded in other counties.

That was the aim, to expand the policy.

I believe it's dangerous because it gives a clear suggestion

that if you put Wrexham and Flintshire together, for example,

you won't have any love towards the Welsh language

and it won't be seen as important.

The west will then be left behind like some backwater,

cut off from civilisation.

Bethan, as I said, you've worked in both sectors.

Are there lessons to be learned from the private sector?

I would say the process is going to be a painful one.

It is going to cost, but it's also going to hurt to the individuals

who work there and who may lose their jobs.

You won't need every chief executive that you currently have.

You won't need two sets of HR staff under these changes.

That process needs to be thought out,

so that it can be done systematically.

It needs to deal with the effect it will have on individuals.

It's also worth remembering

that we have this idea that everyone in the public sector

lives comfortably.

But most of these people do jobs which are required

on relatively low wages.

Nobody is angered more by the high wages of chief executives

than the workers at the councils themselves.

We can see that across the public sector.

This idea that public sector workers want a chief executive

who earns £300,000 or whatever, just isn't true.

We'll end this conversation, Nerys, on the timetable.

What is the ideal timetable?

There has been a lot of debate since the announcement was made.

Local authority chief executives told us

about the dead hand of reorganisation.

Once the commission published its findings,

it would be difficult to attract and retain people in posts.

Once the map, or any recommendation for the future is released,

local authorities would converse with each other and look ahead.

It may happen automatically in some areas,

but we hope the Welsh Government will lead on this

and look at the recommendations in their entirety

and not just this small aspect which has received all the attention.

Thank you.

At Westminster, the Liberal Democrats are still in a bit of a pickle

concerning the way they dealt with accusations

made by some women with the party about the behaviour of Lord Rennard.

The issue has raised questions

about women's experiences within the political world.

We have been speaking to Heledd Fychan

who became disillusioned

following her experience of attempting to be nominated

for an Assembly constituency seat.

If you go into the political world people will challenge you,

people will hate you because they disagree with your opinion

and disagree with your party's policies.

But where I think it's different for women is

they not only disagree with you but they question the way you look,

your weight and also ask questions about your family.

If you have children, who looks after them

while you dare to follow a political career?

That pressure gets to be a lot more personal and it did surprise me.

By being a bit younger I was a bit more naive

and I had been brought up to think women could do everything men can.

Nobody questioned the fact I had political ambitions.

Suddenly, from being a mother myself, my son was six weeks old

when I went for the nomination for latest by-election on Anglesey,

I received terrible e-mails.

They weren't from party members

but from addresses without names to them,

with a made up name and so on.

They challenged my decision to do that

and attacked my decision to dare go the Senedd

while I had son who was so young.

What kind of things were in these e-mails?

They questioned what would happen to my son.

They criticised the fact that I had an ambition and that was awful.

That I was a selfish person.

Plenty of people are ready to criticise the way politicians act

and I wanted to do something positive.

Having someone think it's a selfish thing to do

and you somehow effect your son's future by putting your name forward,

that does hurt.

What's ironic is, the same time I had my son,

even within my own party,

an MP had become a father and had a small child.

Nobody questioned whether he should stand for election.

Other men become fathers.

Nobody questions if they should stand again or be candidates.

What's surprised me is the amount of people who have told me

I must be relieved that I haven't been chosen

because what would have happened to my son?

Do they question men to the same extent?

Well, no.

It's seen as a positive factor, the fact they are fathers,

they are family men.

It has made me a bit disillusioned.

I don't know if I'll stand again in future.

I still believe strongly in the party's principles.

I do believe in the political world.

The only thing I'm questioning is, is it the right time for me

to go for it? Presently, I don't intend to stand for a long time.

but a week is a long time in politics.

Maybe I'll say something different in 12 months' time.

At the moment it's made think about concentrating on a different career.

I don't need those attitudes in my life at the moment.

Heledd Fychan's experiences.

Nerys, you're familiar with the political world.

Is it an unfair world for women?

It can be.

I was saddened to hear Heledd's comments and I hope

her experiences and those of other women's

especially in the Lib Dems with the Rennard story,

don't persuade young women to turn their backs on politics.

It is important we have women of all ages, and men of all ages,

putting themselves forward for elections

because it makes our political world and the law making process

much richer, by having these experiences

and to have different people standing for different seats.

Have you ever come across any behaviour that's offended you?

Yes, in many areas of my life not just in the political world.

I think women have to put up with things, as Heledd mentioned,

that men wouldn't be questioned on.

Young women who speak out about what they believe in...

What effect has the events within the Liberal Democrats had?

You're close friends with one of the women who complained

about Rennard.

I also talked to her last Sunday.

The concern she had was because of what has happened

women and girls will be less likely

to speak out.

The only way this is going to end

is when people complain and speak out.

It is a mess.

The way the party has dealt with it is a mess.

The only hope is that the other parties will learn lessons from this

so they put processes in place to deal with such matters.

Are you happy with Plaid Cymru's processes?

We went through the process of reviewing our policies internally

after the last election.

Things are in place to make sure complaints are dealt with

in a sensitive manner.

But there is a problem with what Heledd was saying.

She said she didn't think that the people of Plaid Cymru did this

but she received these anonymous e-mails.

We've seen Stan Collymore's story today.

-The ability to be cruel...

-Anonymously.

..makes the problem much worse.

Gari, women in the workplace.

You run garages, do you employ women at all?

Women can't turn torque wrenches and hold gear boxes, and lift engines.

It's not practical.

Maybe they can.

I don't think so.

Find me one and I'll employ her.

The words come to mind are storm in a teacup.

It is dull. But there are strong points from what Heledd said.

That is in a Welsh category.

But women have been offended and almost mistreated.

It isn't a storm in a teacup.

If a man puts his hand on a woman's knee

in this enlightened day and age, give him a slap.

Tell him not to do it again.

Chances are he won't do it again.

I didn't hear that.

The suggestion is in the newspapers is

that Lord Rennard who is called Lord Lard

by the Daily Express.

Is that prejudicial against a man who doesn't look attractive?

You're taking Lord Rennard's side?

No, I'm not but I do sympathise with him slightly

because he is sincere but doesn't look the part.

We have to make it clear that Heledd Fychan's experiences

are a different topic.

But Bethan, please respond to what Gari has just said.

When it comes to sexual harassment,

it's personal to the people in that situation.

A lot of it has do with power.

Only a powerful person feels they can put their hand

on someone's knee.

A less powerful person wouldn't do that.

Attitudes need to be changed. Maybe a slap would work

but it would better if people didn't do it in the first place

and didn't think it was acceptable.

You are a powerful woman in your company.

Maybe some men are afraid of you.

Can it work both ways?

That's true. That is a problem I have come across.

I specialise in employment law.

I do see many more men complaining these days

about the way they're treated.

That's a lot to do with the media.

That Diet Coke advert drives me mad.

Women spill Diet Coke on a man so he takes his top off.

I do think it works both ways.

Women are ready to do the same thing back to men.

There's been a to of talk about the culture in Westminster,

is the culture in the Assembly different?

It is different in that there are more women there.

It isn't completely equal as it was in the last Assembly.

It's 40%.

It's about 40%.

The hours mean there isn't this...

It was once said that the House of Commons sailed on a sea of Chablis.

That doesn't happen in the Assembly to the same extent.

But we have to admit that there have been cases.

A few Assembly members have been quite open about their problems.

Those types of problems everywhere in society.

The answer every time, I'd say, is for people to speak up.

The best disinfectant is light.

And on that note... And education.

Thank you all four for joining us this evening.

That's it for another week.

Y Sgwrs will be back next week.

Until then, from all of us here, good evening.