15/01/2014 Y Sgwrs

Welcome back.

At the start of the new political season, we will be hearing from

the First Minister, Carwyn Jones, on the floods, councils and rugby,

tonight on Y Sgwrs.

Y Sgwrs is back tonight after a Christmas break.

It's good to be back in Vaughan company

and to welcome tonight's guests.

On tonight's panel, the actress and Plaid Cymru supporter Lisabeth Miles,

Nick Bennet, Chief Executive of Community Housing Cymru,

and, in Bangor, Sion Jones, a Labour councillor in Bethel near Caernarfon.

A warm welcome to you all.

Vaughan, the start of an exciting year politically.

-What's going to happen?

-Every year is exciting politically,

but the big thing this year, first, we are preparing for

the next General Election, but also the vote that will decide

the shape and size of the United Kingdom with the vote in Scotland.

There will be European elections as well

but I think our eyes will be on Edinburgh.

Your anorak will be busy throughout the year.

And it will be a busy year for politicians in Cardiff.

Earlier, I asked the First Minister about his priorities and his hopes

for this year.

But first, the floods that hit West Wales recently.

Will the local councils have to meet the costs?

There is a process whereby they can ask us for money

and they have to apply for that.

It's not automatic, but it's possible.

But you will probably have to offer lots of financial assistance?

It's hard to tell.

Some parts of Wales have had it worse than other parts.

At the moment, we don't know what the councils will be able to do

and where they will need more help.

You can ask London for help as well, and Europe, can't you?

The Secretary of State for Wales

says he hasn't received an application from here.

-Have you asked him?

-He said there wouldn't be money before we asked

-so there's no point.

-It's worth asking.

As a rule, this has been devolved.

European would be the place where there would be more hope.

There is a European fund and we have talked to the UK Government

about the best way to apply for money from that fund.

-You are going to ask Europe?

-Yes.

-And wait for the answer.

-Yes.

It was a very difficult time for a lot of Welsh people.

Of course, you had already organised to go to Uganda.

Alun Davies, the other minister, was in America and Canada.

Looking back, do you regret that neither of you was here?

Alun had gone to Aberystwyth.

He had gone up there very early to see what had happened.

He briefed me about the problem.

I know Aberystwyth well, having been to university there,

and I had seen several reports about what happened there.

But do you regret not being there?

It's difficult, of course.

I was going to Uganda and Alun had been to Aberystwyth,

so we knew exactly what had happened,

and it was important that a minister should be there.

A new political year.

It'll be busy with European elections and a referendum in Scotland.

What are Carwyn Jones' priorities in Wales?

To make sure the good work continues.

For example, if we look at the economy,

things are going fairly well,

especially with unemployment figures

and what's going on with young people.

We need to continue that good work in the economy.

If we look at health, it's always a challenge for any government.

Things are looking up, of course,

but it is a challenge for every government in the United Kingdom.

With education, PISA is very important.

There are plans in place to deal with PISA and other issues

but it's going to take a few years

to see that improvement happening.

So, more of the same, but many people are asking,

what is your vision, what is the narrative

of Carwyn Jones' government? Is there ambition for this year?

Confidence is everything in Wales.

People need to understand that they can do things.

We need to stop thinking that we are the worst at everything

because it's not true.

And the confidence to sell Wales to the rest of the world.

Another challenge this year will be local government.

We will have the Williams Report on Monday,

which might suggest fewer councils.

-Is 22 too many councils for Wales?

-I have said it is.

We will have to wait and see what the recommendations

of the Williams Commission are.

If people ask how many there should be,

well, we'll see what the commission thinks.

But I see it every day.

Several councils have struggled for years.

Many councils need help with education and, for some of them,

it's not clear whether they'll ever be able to do it.

We can't carry on like that forever.

We need a sound infrastructure for the people of Wales.

-So there will be restructuring?

-There has to be change.

That is true. 22 councils are too many.

There's not much balance either.

Some are much bigger than others, so we need some kind of restructuring.

But, in terms of the shape, we'll wait for the Williams Report.

We mentioned being bottom of the pile.

In the rugby, we are at the top in the six Nations.

You are a big rugby fan.

Does this dispute between the regions disappoint you?

Well... yes.

Just like every supporter and player.

It's very difficult at the moment to see how they will agree.

I know they have been talking.

What is important is that we appreciate that...

..clubs outside of Wales don't always think of the health

of the game in Wales.

It's important that we have a system which is sustainable

from an international point of view but also the regions and the clubs.

A lot of public bickering has gone on recently.

We need to make sure that we move towards an agreement.

You've written to both sides asking for a resolution.

What is the problem? Personalities, or lack of cooperation?

It comes down to money.

The regions would say that they don't get enough money from

the Pro12 at the moment.

Is the union greedy?

No. The union would say that the deal is very fair.

Is there anything else that you can do as First Minister?

Can you do more?

There is nothing I can do to force the issue.

It's very difficult to become part of it full-time.

I wouldn't have the time but I am interested.

If bodies want to talk about the situation confidentially,

I'm happy to listen,

but it is something they need to agree amongst themselves.

What I think is important

is that they listen to the supporters

who say, "This has to be sorted out by the end of the month."

This is what we're good at and we're falling out.

-That's disappointing.

-That's the Welsh way!

We have a long history of bickering.

But it's a shame. I don't think it will affect the international game.

But it's important that the structure below international level

is strong and that they get along.

First Minister Carwyn Jones.

We'll discuss rugby in a moment

but let's talk about the councils first

because we have a member of the Williams Commission here.

Nick Bennet, what does it contain?

I'm happy to come back next week if you want the details.

-It's important to bear in mind...

-Has he seen it?

I hope he has and I hope he feels confident about next week

but there were members of every party involved in the commission

and we reached and agreement.

It's not just about the future of local government,

but also the public sector.

We have to deal with an aging population and less money

so we have to make sure that public services are in a better state

in the future.

It sounds like the First Minister wants to see restructuring.

Yes, and it's worth remembering that Labour promised in the last

Assembly Election that there would be no restructuring,

so there has been a change of direction,

and not just at Assembly level, but at council level.

The councils see these cuts coming

and several, especially the small councils,

like Merthyr, only three-quarters of a constituency - 50,000 people,

and people know that the infrastructure is unsustainable.

But Nick makes a fair point.

Before you decide how many councils there should be,

you have to decide what you want them to do

and we might see some responsibilities being transferred

from local councils to health boards

or perhaps even to a national Welsh level

which didn't exist when these councils were first created.

Lisabeth Miles, restructuring is expensive.

-It costs million.

-It's going to cost a lot.

Everything has to work together.

It's going to be extremely expensive.

But the thing is, are we, the taxpayers, going to receive

an explanation as to why this is necessary

and how it's going to happen?

-Do we need 22 education chiefs on big salaries?

-Definitely not.

There are astonishing salaries.

No, I think we need to cut back.

Sion in Bangor, what do you think?

-We've heard...

-We have 22 councils in Wales

and that's too many for the counties in Wales.

If we can half that number,

it still leaves us with a lot of councils

compared to England.

Personally, I think we need to make sure that the front-line services

are important - roads and so on, but regarding education

and social services, we need a more strategic approach.

Let's move on to Carwyn Jones' priorities.

He mentioned confidence.

Delivery was the word we heard last year.

What does confidence mean to you?

It's an interesting message.

We are seeing two parties, the Labour Party and Plaid Cymru,

seeing the success of the SNP in Scotland

with a message that, rather than complaining that England

doesn't do this or the UK doesn't do that,

but presenting a message of confidence, hope, optimism,

which struck a chord with the electorate.

Maybe they've had enough of this idea of a chip on the shoulder

from the parties in Wales.

This idea of confidence is part of a political strategy

but Carwyn Jones realises that the accusation that the government

is a managerial government with no vision,

he thinks that is having an effect and he wants to create a vision that

is beyond the day-to-day decisions

that any government has to make.

Lisabeth Miles, as a member of Plaid Cymru, what do you think?

He was generalising.

And he was coming out with cliches.

He was saying things to please people.

I didn't think he was talking with enough fluency.

He was more open and had more ideas when he was talking about the rugby.

He would love to sort that problem out, wouldn't he?

Sion, more of the same. Is that the vision for this year?

I think the two main targets for Carwyn Jones

and the Labour government down in Cardiff Bay

are to ensure that every department in the Welsh government

works for the economy

and works towards developing the Welsh language.

Those are the two main aims the government will work towards.

Rugby. Nick, he was obviously passionate about the issue.

He would love to get into that scrum to sort it out.

Is it a politician's place to do that?

It would be easier to sort out local government than the rugby!

But, fair play, he showed that he was as enthusiastic

when it came to the rugby as he was about politics.

I think it's pay back for what Roger Lewis did in the referendum.

Ooh, right. Erm, politician sorting out sport?

Well, we listened to a debate in the Assembly this afternoon.

They argued about rugby and everybody had something to say.

I'm sure we'll see it in the local paper.

I don't think there's much that politicians can do,

but if the First Minister says he's willing to be

a neutral chairman for talks, fair enough.

Sion, the First Minister has more to do with the Health Service

and education than rugby.

I think Carwyn Jones has got his priorities in place.

Carwyn Jones is doing great work.

I am aware that Carwyn Jones follows rugby,

but I hope that whatever happens with the rugby

won't affect the Welsh team.

Thank you.

A question that comes up regularly is where we should build new homes?

The last few weeks have shown that flood risk

are an important consideration, just like the environment

and the language.

Should we create new communities?

That's one of the questions Janet Ebenezer has been asking.

We know there is a problem regarding a shortage of houses.

But when plans come out, they are controversial.

Here in Penybanc, Ammanford, there is strong opposition

to plans to build 300 houses,

but wherever the developments are and however big the projects,

they are always controversial.

This is the site that has caused a lot of falling out.

The project has now been approved.

There is concern that it will affect the Welsh language,

but there are other concerns as well.

There are too many houses together

and it will create an artificial village here.

That will affect the community.

But others are worried about their businesses

and welcome such a development.

It will help if we have more people here.

Let's have something more long-term.

-Is that what the area needs?

-Yes. Definitely.

We are going to stay here and we enjoy working here.

Research by the Government warns simply that Wales does not

have sufficient housing.

It estimates that we need 14,000 new houses every year over

the next 15 years, so how serious is the situation?

It has been proved that if a child is brought up in a warm house,

they are going to perform better academically

and as people, so socially, we need to provide housing for people.

But what about creating new towns and cities?

Some experts say this is the answer.

A report for the UK Government recommends building two new

cities in the south-east of England.

Would that be an option in Wales?

Perhaps Coed Darcy near Neath is the closest thing to a new town.

It is proposed to build 4,000 new homes,

with schools and facilities here.

It is on an old oil refinery site. Creating towns is nothing new.

After the Second World War, after a nationwide effort,

new towns were established in Cwmbran and Newtown.

Creating a new town is an extreme measure.

In England, the problem is worse than in Wales,

especially in the south-east.

Housing provision has been devolved there.

But it is an extreme measure

and I don't see that happening in Wales for years.

So there is a demand, but the process of providing

sufficient homes for the future is much more complex.

Nick Bennet, you work in the industry.

It must be a nightmare to find somewhere with no opposition?

There's always opposition.

Everybody wants to go to heaven.

Sometimes you have great problems with NIMBYs

but in most Welsh communities,

we know that we need affordable housing

and I'm glad my sector is helping with that,

but we don't need new towns.

That was the response to the war in the last century,

and the fact that towns were over-populated

with no fresh air and gardens.

Now we need more resources for more houses over the next ten years.

Yes, we must have affordable housing,

and isn't it an artificial thing.

A community has to develop.

We need a cross-section of people in any community.

We need a high percentage of houses where young people can move in,

not just older people.

There are houses here in Cardiff that young people cannot afford.

They'll be bought by people with money and jobs.

We need something that isn't just on the outskirts of towns and cities.

Bodelwyddan, for instance.

There are hundreds of houses being built there.

They'll be bought by people from Chester.

It is not right that that should happen to communities.

Sion, Adam Price has suggested

a new town on the Menai Straits.

Is that the answer?

Gwynedd and Anglesey Councils are designing a local development plan.

I had a meeting in Bethel last week to identify local needs.

There are only six houses for sale in the Bethel constituency

which has a population of 300,000 people.

We need an assessment to have houses developed locally.

On the other hand,

it is important to talk to people and consult locally.

They are the people who know where to develop

and where the best locations are.

In England, they are looking at garden cities.

I think this has been sparked by the HS2 business.

So I think there's room for development

but it's important to consult local people

to ensure the right decisions are made.

Vaughan, with all the obstacles in terms of planning,

the environment and the language, it is very difficult.

Yes, and there are problems unique to Wales.

The housing stock is amongst the oldest in Europe.

The houses that young people can afford are often old,

terraced industrial housing, which are very difficult to heat.

There are all sorts of questions about improving the existing

housing stock in the mining areas and quarrying areas.

How do you improve those houses?

Are we going to see new towns in Wales?

Cwmbran, Rhiwbina in Cardiff. Will we see developments like that?

It is important not to complicate things.

We shouldn't confuse town planning with the need for affordable

housing in every village in Wales.

We have to ensure that we have provision all over the country.

A Milton Keynes in Mid Wales won't do that.

Thank you. Earlier on, we talked about the successes

of the international rugby team.

Let's talk about another team.

Yesterday, Plaid Cymru announced its new leaders.

There are not so many of them for the new season.

This is the top team. What do you make of them, Vaughan?

The famous five.

We won't ask which one is Timmy!

Leanne Wood is creating a team which can be effective in an election.

She's talking about a small focused Cabinet

in order to focus on Welsh problems.

The truth is that they're TV and radio performers.

She hopes that will make Plaid more effective as a campaigning team.

Are you happy? Some of the old names have gone.

They're a bit more substantial than that.

They're not just performers.

It's important to be able to convey a message.

You know how important a performance is, Lis.

I agree that it's important.

But they have some substance, too.

And a small team can easily form a coalition.

Perhaps, but once again the same pattern

as we saw in the Scottish Cabinet.

There is a feeling across the opposition parties

that the Welsh Government is far too big in terms

of ministers and deputy ministers and councillors

and some people think it is wasteful.

That could be a factor in Welsh politics

as the two major elections approach.

Our time is over. Thank you, everybody, for coming tonight.

But before we finish,

the latest about the coastguards in Fishguard.

They have been searching after reports that an aeroplane crashed.

The searching has now finished.

The coastguard in Milford Haven say it doesn't look like an accident

has happened after all.

More discussion next week. Good night all.