11/12/2013 Y Sgwrs

Welcome back.

The NHS in Wales is under pressure once again, but behind the headlines,

what are your experiences of the service?

Is the NHS facing a crisis?

We will be discussing that and more on tonight's Y Sgwrs.

We will turn our attention to the NHS later and we will hear whether

the Lleyn Peninsula's pensioners think there should be

an official statements on their rights.

And comedian Eilir Jones

will be taking a look back at the political year.

Vaughan is with us, and our guests in our last programme of 2013.

Keith Davies, the Labour Assembly Member for Llanelli,

Myfanwy Alexander, an independent councillor in Powys

and the actor and author Mici Plwm,

who also works for Age Cymru in North Wales.

A warm welcome to you all.

To start with, 2013 has been a turbulent year for the NHS,

many problems have been highlighted this week.

There have been headlines about people waiting

for up to six hours in ambulances outside hospitals.

There has been a critical report on problems facing the North Wales

health board, and health boards in South Wales were preparing

to announce restructuring plans tomorrow.

They will no doubt be controversial.

We'll now have to wait until the New Year for them.

Vaughan, that raises the question, why is there this wait?

Many people have voiced their anger it will be announced

on the final day of the Assembly so they can't be discussed.

Maybe that's part of it.

Think about it for a second.

We are talking here about a huge region.

Think about the problems there have been in North Wales

and West Wales already.

We are now talking about a region

where most of the Welsh population live.

We have already seen the problems Leighton Andrews got into

by talking about possible plans to cutting Llantrisant Hospital.

These are the most controversial plans,

and also the most important political plans

for the next election.

I think what is going on is to delay them

in order to get the largest possible support for these plans.

Keith Davies, people talk about restructuring services,

some people call them downgrading services.

It is a political hot potato.

Is it difficult for you as the Labour Party?

Is it difficult for you personally?

We have seen you campaigning to save services at your hospital

despite the fact the Government has approved changes?

I think we have to have these changes,

because there is huge pressure on the NHS.

We want people to receive the best service.

What is happening now in South Wales

is there is disagreement between the doctors.

And if they are not willing to discuss publicly,

I don't know when we will get an answer from them.

Is there an element of Nimby-ism in this argument?

Everybody wants to see services staying local in their area.

But they can't see the big picture with the financial squeeze.

I think nearly everybody understands

that services have to be revamped.

But nobody wants these decisions to be made beforehand.

I think communication is most important.

If people understand the situation

and the decisions are transparent,

they will take part in the discussion.

What happens very often is decisions are made behind scenes

and then announced.

Then people start an immediate campaign.

I think these things should be discussed as adults.

The largest health board is in North Wales, Mici Plwm,

Betsi Cadwaladr.

It has been under pressure recently

because of this report on the cases of C.difficile.

People are saying that small babies are being sent over the border

to Arrowe Park.

However, opinion polls show

people across Wales seem to be happy with the NHS.

So are the headlines different to people's experiences?

I think you're talking about the service.

The service on the wards,

and I am talking about the nurses who look after the patients,

I think the problem is with managers, that's where problems lie,

because they have huge salaries.

You talk about people going into hospital,

I was in hospital around two-and-a-half years ago,

and I was very ill.

But the thing is you have to look at it.

I was listening to what you said about small hospitals

it is disappointing, it is sad that hospitals such as Blaenau Ffestiniog

and similar hospitals have closed because of cuts.

You can't make such cuts despite the economic climate we have.

We have to look after people's health and care.

The doctors and nurses don't get the respect they deserve.

Our First Minister says that doctors are in favour

of these changes.

He says it is important that these changes happen

so that we have safe services in Wales.

That is a strong argument, isn't it?

It is difficult to disagree with that argument.

But remember, doctors are not gods.

It is not their job to run the health service.

Decisions have to be made to do with balance.

Of course, if the service is completely unsafe,

you have to change the way it is provided.

But doctors have their own interests,

and some people think that the support for some of these changes

are to do with convenience for doctors

instead of a matter of safety.

Doctors are lobbying.

Patients have rights as well.

Keith Davies, are you worried that this issue,

which is very emotional for many,

will come back to bite you in the next elections?

I don't think so.

I think we will have an answer in the end.

What I think is important is treatments are changing.

I remember when I went into Morriston Hospital,

but I was in Llanelli Hospital first,

and the doctor told me I'm not sure when you will go to Morriston

because there are ten hospitals feeding Morriston

because there is a centre of excellence there.

What is important is we get the best service.

If we want the best service with these treatments,

we are going to have centres of excellence.

That's the battle. Where will that centre be located?

That's what's happened in South Wales.

They are fighting against each other.

There is an element of, you two have experience

in the world of education.

Closing a school or changing provision is just as difficult.

But the tendency is, sometimes the campaigners win

and sometimes they lose,

but after the change is made, people tend to accept them.

Can I give you an example.

Tomorrow morning I will be Prince Philip Hospital in Llanelli

to open a new ward.

The ward's called Mynydd Mawr Ward.

What was Mynydd Mawr? A hospital in Tumble.

You have to ask the question, will the patient get better service

in the ward because it is in a big hospital

compared to the service they got in Tumble?

I have to say I'm jealous to be part of the discussion.

We are suffering from the problem that authorities in England

are restructuring services as well, and deciding what services they are

going to offer in Shrewsbury.

If they change that to Telford it will affect services.

We can't say anything about that.

That situation in Mid Wales is unique. We have to move on.

Should there be a special statement listing the rights of older people?

The Welsh Government believe so, and a consultation is taking place.

The aim is to give older people assurances that they are

receiving appropriate public services.

James Williams shared a meal with pensioners in Cricieth.

Is there enough support from the government?

No, definitely not.

So you see a lot of the money moving out of the area?

Yes, you always see it on the news, on the television.

So you think that older people are ignored?

Ignored by society in general?

I think that used to be true.

But I think the Government is trying to help

by doing different things and giving money for it.

What kind of life is it to be an older person in this area?

There are plenty of things to do, but there is not a lot of support.

-There isn't enough support.

-No.

Has that got worse recently or something you've seen for a time?

It has happened for a while.

We used to have a small group but we couldn't get people to attend.

That's closed now.

As a disabled person,

I can't go to a lot of the things I want to go to.

You feel a bit isolated?

I have had years of losing my balance.

So I can't go up steps very easily.

Is that difficult?

You feel you can't do what you used to be able to do?

No, I don't socialise as much as I used to.

A lot of elderly people don't go out enough, and I'm one of them.

They should be more supportive.

Are officials to blame for that.

It is mostly our fault.

Maybe what Mici's doing now, more people will socialise more.

-So you need a more positive attitude?

-Yes.

We saw Mici Plwm tucking into a turkey,

so we will go to Bangor to talk to him.

We do have things such as the Human Rights Act.

Why do we need something as bespoke for older people?

In rural areas,

although Wales was the first country

to have an Older Person's Commissioner,

and make sure the rights are available.

I have been working for Age Cymru for three years now.

I am now starting as a development officer for Age Well centres.

Age well are the two important words there.

I am a development officer now across Anglesey and Gwynedd.

Establishing an Age Well centre, I heard there it was a small club...

We have a very successful club in Nefyn

and we use that as a template for other centres.

We are establishing others.

As you saw we had a Christmas lunch.

We were celebrating that an Age Well centre will open in Cricieth

in the new year.

There already ones in Bala, Dolgellau.

We are aiming for Tywyn and Blaenau Ffestiniog.

They are mushrooming all over both counties.

They are desperately needed. I know from experience.

My mother and grandmother were in a care homes.

The care today is very different.

People call what we have in Nefyn,

a youth club for people over the age of 50!

I am responsible for things like creating

a timetable of different activities that pleases everyone,

whether it is physical exercise, T'ai chi, line dancing, art.

If you name it, it is available there.

Or what I say is that we in Age Cymru in Gwynedd and Anglesey

can organise anything but we can't read minds.

So you tell us what you want.

I have to interrupt this advert

for Age Cymru in North Wales for a second!

Myfanwy, some people would say,

if the elderly get some level of public services, we all deserve it.

Yes and what I don't agree with is the idea

of having special rights for older people.

I think the best thing for them is to work in societies.

We have examples in Powys where they can to have lunch in the schools.

They eat with the younger people

and the communication between them is very constructive.

I'm not very fond of the idea of putting older people on one side

and giving them special rights.

Having said that, there are some very fit older people,

who also have sharp minds,

but there are some people in society who are more fragile

and the legislation at the moment does not allow groups or societies

to battle for their rights.

The individual has to do that.

We heard on Newyddion about cases of dementia, for example.

If you are not able to do that, maybe you do need more support.

Maybe you do.

Gwenda Thomas, the deputy minister is bringing in a new bill

on well being and social services,

so that we can meet the demands of older people.

That will come in the future. We have to look back before we finish.

What kind of year was 2013 for our politicians?

There were no big elections this year,

for the whole of Wales that is, before people on Anglesey protest.

But there was plenty to keep everybody busy.

Tonight, the comedian Eilir Jones

gives us his unique assessment of the government's year.

Here he is with his tongue in his cheek.

# Tinsel on the tree

# A star in the sky

# And a small dolly sitting

# So beautifully on the branch. #

2013. Welsh politics, the good and the bad.

First, the bad.

January.

The Welsh Government announced that it would not

take its case against Pobol y Cwm any further.

Apparently, there was a character in Pobol y Cwm called Cadno

and she said that the Welsh Government did not have

enough backbone to cull badgers.

I also heard that actors had been complaining during rehearsals.

It came as quite a surprise to me.

Not that they were complaining.

Just the fact that they rehearse Pobol y Cwm!

A week later, Carwyn Jones invited Trident to Wales.

The opposition parties complained

that he had not done a risk assessment.

Do you need a risk assessment when it comes to Trident?

It's a nuclear missile. No, that must have been a joke.

A bit of leg pulling.

The Welsh Government is not stupid enough

to put Trident in South Wales, is it?

You'll be telling me next that the Government is buying an airport!

In February, the Welsh Government announced it would hold

a big discussion on the Welsh language,

which is quite strange, to be honest.

Because in a discussion, people usually listen!

You may think things couldn't get any worse, but they did.

June.

The Government was once again under pressure after its website

offered career advice for people who wanted to work in the sex industry.

So it didn't just want to see employment figures rise!

Also in June, Leighton Andrews left his post.

As Education Minister, he had been protesting against his own policies.

You can't do that, can you? That is insane!

It is like Herod announcing he wants to kill every child

and then getting a job and answering the phone for ChildLine!

Not much went wrong in July and August.

Everybody came to their senses. No. Everybody was on holiday.

Next, in September, there was a change in the organ donation system.

It will come as quite a shock to those people

who are on holiday in our country.

Hearing somebody say, "I am going to lift people's hearts"

will take on a much more sinister meaning.

And finally, December. The PISA results came out.

The children of Wales were the worst at reading,

maths and science throughout the whole of Britain.

Kids! What can you do with them?!

The Government now wants to spend an extra 1.5 million on maths,

another 1.5 million on science

and another 1.5 million on reading.

But is six million enough?!

And anyway, there's no point crying over PISA.

And now, the good things.

You can discuss that in the studio.

So Merry Christmas and a happy New Year to every politician in Wales.

And thank you very much. I would not like to do your job.

# Everybody knows. #

The comedian Eilir Jones with a bit more of the bad

than the good in his analysis there.

Not as a comedian, Keith, but as a serious politician,

defend what the Government has done during the last year.

He talked there about the bill on organ donation and I think that is going to save lives.

I think that is the biggest thing that has happened this year

and I'm very proud that we have led the way.

The highlight, Myfanwy?

I think as a topic of discussion,

the fact Carwyn Jones decided to buy an airport.

That has gone down like a lead balloon in Mid Wales.

-It is quite a popular decision in South Wales.

-Exactly!

And it has increased in value, apparently.

-And it is attracting more passengers.

-From where?

Not many companies travel to Cardiff.

It looks to us like a white elephant.

But I have to say,

I am pleased with the changes in the world of education.

I think the new minister has a much more open attitude

and that is what we need in order to do something about PISA.

Mici Plwm, what gets a tick in 2013?

It goes on year after year, the A470.

Good grief!

It is like a footpath compared to the M4

and that is getting more money once again.

I won't ask somebody who is meant to be unbiased for a highlight, Vaughan.

But it's been a strange year because there has not been an election.

It is unusual these days not to have an election.

I think there has been a feeling in the Assembly

that we are in the middle of the term.

The work continues and legislation goes through and so on.

But it has not been a year when there has been a lot of excitement.

But from Carwyn Jones' point of view, when you remember that he only has 30 seats out of the 60,

a year without excitement in the Assembly suggests

that the Government is having quite a successful time

and the opposition parties can not join together

to challenge the Government.

The budget was passed yesterday and that proves that more than anything else.

Yes. The budget is the big thing.

It is the big problem for a government which does not have a majority

and Carwyn Jones has sailed through the process.

Looking down the M4 towards Westminster,

what have been the highlights from the Westminster Government?

All we've been hearing is the word 'cuts' and how they are going to bite.

Has there been a highlight?

The highlight for me was David Cameron's selfie

in the Mandela service.

That will stay in the memory forever.

And the man doing the sign language!

Or not doing it!

Mici Plwm, has there been a highlight down the M4 corridor?

The person who has made the biggest fool of himself was Cameron

when he said let's "celebrate" the First World War.

Celebrating a huge number of losses. He got the word completely wrong.

He said we should celebrate. Good grief!

I can't think of words to describe it.

Let's look forward to 2014.

Keith, is there anything the Government has done that you would like to see more of?

Or is there going to be a change of tack in 2014?

Talking about the Government in Westminster,

I was very pleased that Cameron came to Cardiff.

Carwyn Jones asked him about the Silk Commission

and he knew nothing about it.

Our Welsh Secretary, I listened to him talk,

and he doesn't want an Assembly at all.

Are you worried that in 2014 these negative headlines

like the PISA results and what is happening to the NHS

and the waiting lists and how long people wait for ambulances,

that it has set a precedent for the period to come?

Yes, but you said at the start of the programme,

if you look at the health service,

over 90% of Welsh people are very happy with it.

We have heard about bad examples this week

and they don't happen every week.

So by next week or the week after maybe people will

forget about that and realise that it is a good service.

One thing for 2014, Myfanwy?

It will be nice to see that the debate about education

in Wales will be wider and will look at the role of parents

and the community, and not just blame teachers and authorities.

Mici Plwm, one word or sentence for 2014?

I hope more money will be spent on the Age Well Centres for older people.

And a Vaughan, get your crystal ball out.

The European elections and for once,

European elections in Wales which are difficult to predict.

-I think it is going to be very interesting.

-In what way?

Usually, you can say that Labour will win two seats,

Plaid Cymru will win one and the Tories will win one.

With UKIP in the mix

and if UKIP keeps the seat it has and pushes the Tories out,

there are all kinds of interesting possibilities

in this year's European elections.

We will see. Vaughan, Myfanwy, Keith and Mici Plwm, thank you very much.

That is our final programme of the year.

Bethan and Vaughan will be back in January.

From all of us here on the programme tonight,

thank you for your company and Merry Christmas to you all.