19/02/2014 Y Sgwrs

Welcome back. Is it right that seven of our councils' chief executives

earn more than the First Minister?

Public sector bosses' wages tonight on Y Sgwrs.

Yes, it's a wild night.

A chance to stay indoors in front of the box and join in the debate.

That is, if you have electricity, of course.

Shortly, a quiz on the public sector wages for the locals in Caernarfon.

To be fair, maybe people don't think so,

but David Cameron is meant to be running the entire country.

And he doesn't get as much as you'd expect.

That and more about the problems facing the Welsh Conservatives,

plenty to discuss, with Vaughan and our guests - Bethan Jenkins,

the Plaid Cymru AM for South West Wales,

and John Davies, councillor and former Pembroke Council leader.

Thank you for joining us. But we must start with the weather

and the response from politicians to the crisis.

There's no shortage of politicians in wellies in those areas

hit by the storms and floods.

But members in Cardiff Bay

and also in Westminster are facing tough questions over how to

deal with the crisis in the long term and short term.

Vaughan, David Cameron has said that money is no object.

How much will he throw at this? Do we know?

Well, we don't know yet, but in truth, David Cameron has been

trying to catch up after appearing to be a little slow in responding.

But such situations are very difficult for politicians.

If you get out there in your wellies, people call it

a photo op, taking advantage, but if you don't, you're also criticised.

I was listening to PM's Questions

and I remembered a quote from Yes, Minister.

Jim Hacker saying, "This is too serious a situation to score

"political points, but I notice the opposition are doing exactly that."

Whatever a politician does in a situation like this,

someone is going to criticise.

Have we seen enough Welsh politicians, John Davies?

We've seen Westminster politicians in their wellies this week,

maybe not last week, maybe they were a little slow,

but have we seen enough Welsh politicians?

It is difficult for politicians to get the balance right,

to show concern and also to show political interest.

The situation in Wales has been a little different to the

situation in England,

but it can benefit politicians to come to the fore in extreme

situations, but it can also cause problems if they do not act.

Our politicians in Wales have a duty to act effectively,

as far as finding that portion of the financial cake,

the extra finance that has been given to communities in England.

It's needed in communities across Wales, especially the West Coast.

I've travelled from the eye of the storm this afternoon and it

has been very difficult because you see the damage, you can touch it.

So Cardiff Bay politicians need to get out there and touch it,

see it, and provide political comfort, that the

resources are there to meet our communities' needs.

Bethan, both of them are saying it is difficult for people like you.

Is it hard to assess the sensitivity in such situations?

I think it is important that politicians in their own

areas show that they will provide local support

and we've seen today that Cameron has said that businesses

in areas that have been hit will not have to pay business rate relief.

We don't yet know if that will be something that will affect Wales and

it's important for us to understand what is coming from Westminster.

As far as the Welsh Government, I think

we have seen what the Government intends to do, but we don't

fully know if the councils or the Welsh Government will be paying.

It's only this week that it seems there's been

an application for European money through Westminster.

Well, the application had to go through Westminster.

-Could it have gone sooner?

-The Welsh Government could not apply directly.

That fund has to be assessed by the Government.

What is interesting, I think,

is that Cameron promises to spend all this money,

it's hard to believe that money will be fed through the Barnett Formula,

with Wales receiving around 5% of whatever is spent in England.

But it would also be very strange if Wales did not receive anything

because there has been damage.

So I would suggest it is a matter for Carwyn Jones to have to

make friends, for once, with David Jones

and hold talks to see what is reasonable for Wales to receive.

Because the councils can't afford much.

No, their backs are against the wall right now, as we know.

But the fact is, Vaughan is right,

we need to set political differences aside because we have a duty,

the politicians have a duty, to the people in a crisis

and wherever you live, right across Wales,

there are people worried tonight about insurance and also

about their property because it has been an extreme situation.

So extreme actions are now required from politicians in Cardiff

and Westminster.

Is there more leadership coming from Westminster in England

than has been coming from Cardiff and the ministers in the Bay?

-Do you think there is more oomph in Westminster?

-Well, no.

I think I'm quite cynical because over the past few days,

we've seen that the stockbroker belt is now being affected by the flood.

In the north of England,

maybe Cameron has not said that there is money available.

But yes, I agree, this is too big for scoring political points.

At the end of the day,

people's lives are being affected by the floods, people's homes are

being destroyed, and we have to put money in place to help them,

instead of playing games.

But this can define a leadership, a crisis like this -

foot and mouth disease, or whatever, Gordon Brown has learned,

David Cameron has learned in the past, in 2007.

You have to get it right.

If you remember with Gordon Brown and Cameron,

the mistake from Cameron was to visit Uganda during a flood,

while Gordon Brown was out at sea.

And that benefited Gordon Brown and damaged Cameron.

As I said, there was

at least an appearance that Cameron was slow to respond and then this

strange row between Owen Paterson and Chris Smith and Eric Pickles.

It all looked a bit of a shambles.

And so, Cameron has had to step in.

If he steps in and sorts it out and does so effectively,

it could benefit him, but he hasn't had a good war, as they say, so far.

Maybe Assembly Members are more mature?

Well, I would never say that, especially after

some of the actions within the Conservative group this evening.

But we'll come to that later.

No, the situation is a little difference.

In Westminster, they are approaching a general election.

Miliband and Cameron see everything through that prism.

Here, there are over two years to go until the next election.

UKIP are out and about too, European elections.

Mr Farage is out in his wellies, too.

Thank you for now.

Another topic - the wages of the leaders of councils

and public bodies.

The Assembly's Public Accounts Committee is about to launch

an inquiry which will consider

whether the process of setting wages is open.

Before we discuss that, we can find out what the

people of Caernarfon thought. Janet Ebenezer had a quiz for them.

Tomorrow, a committee of AMs start on an inquiry into the wages

of managers in the public sector.

They will gather evidence from a number of bodies, such

as the Wales Audit Office and the Welsh Local Government Association.

But I've come to Caernarfon to find out what people here

think about the matter and I have a challenge for them.

So, come on.

I'm asking people to guess the wages of these public sector managers.

So, go for it.

The First Minister, Carwyn Jones.

You haven't got many right, unfortunately.

But Carwyn Jones, he earns £135,000 a year, so that is wrong.

The North Wales Chief Constable earns £137,000, so you were close.

Headteachers in Gwynedd, £60,000 - £74,000.

You were right to begin with.

David Cameron, he earns £142,500 a year.

To be fair, maybe people don't think so,

but David Cameron is meant to be running the entire country.

And he doesn't get as much as you would expect, to be honest.

These are the wages. Guess who earns which amount.

The First Minister, Carwyn Jones.

Too much.

-Do you fancy a challenge?

-Well, why not?

I can reveal you haven't done that well.

David Cameron doesn't earn as much as that. He earns £142,500 a year.

But he gets a house.

-Is that a surprise?

-The house is included.

-There are benefits.

-And a holiday home.

The Director of BBC Wales earns more - £160,000.

-The Chief Executive of Gwynedd Council earns £108,000.

-OK.

And then, the Welsh Language Commissioner, £95,000.

And then the Chief Executive of S4C earns a little more,

£144,000 a year.

-Do you think that those wages are fair?

-No.

I still think there are

so many people at the bottom of the ladder who don't get the money.

It's not fair when you share it out between everyone.

So, my work is done today.

The people in Caernarfon have mixed views.

Almost as mixed as these wages.

Janet in Caernarfon.

John Davies, Carwyn Jones raised an interesting point this

week in the Senedd.

Why does the Chief Executive of Pembrokeshire Council earn

more than him?

To begin with, I don't think that is a comparison we should be

making because one is a politician and the other is a civil servant.

That's the first point. Not that it justifies the figures,

but there are comparisons being made between apples and bananas.

Once you are elected, the wages fall?

Well, as far as civil servants, it is

interesting because you have a wide range of figures for local

government, the health service, the police, the fire service,

and that's just in Wales.

So maybe we need to unify those steps that relate to the past.

So who does the tough homework in a council?

-The chief executive or the leader?

-It's a combination of the two.

There is action and political action.

-They are two different things.

-Were you bitter at receiving less...?

-It was £40,000, I think.

-So less than a quarter of what he received.

No, everyone has a different role.

It wasn't a matter of being bitter. It was a matter of fact.

And that is what you're going in for, public service.

The professional side of the business is a little different.

-Do we need to pay politicians more, Bethan?

-Not at the moment.

People are losing their jobs, people can't get jobs, in our towns.

I wouldn't see it as right for politicians to get more

and I don't think Carwyn Jones should be making a political

point about it because time after time in the Assembly,

we hear politicians saying, "It's not our decision.

"It is up to local authorities to decide on pay." I think

now we are seeing a change in the Government's opinion,

maybe because of the consultation taking place, or maybe

because more people see there is a problem.

But isn't it an odd situation that the chief executive of a health

board is paid much more than David Cameron?

Well, what is even stranger, I think,

is that the scales of these high wages in Wales tend to be similar to

those the other side of the border, but Wales is a much poorer country.

Compare the average for the Chief Executive of Gwynedd Council

with the average wage in Gwynedd.

And then compare the average of say the Chief Executive

of Westminster and the average wage in Westminster.

So the question I'm asking is -

should we be looking more at the inequality within Wales,

rather than the inequality between different jobs at that level,

and ask - in general, are they earning too much?

Yes, but wouldn't there be protests?

Why should a chief executive in Wales earn much less than a chief

executive in England?

I don't think there is any evidence...

This is how I see it, I don't see that there is any

shortage of people or talent trying for these jobs.

And it is the same in politics.

If people say, "We don't pay our politicians enough,"

why are all these people standing and are keen to be AMs or MPs?

As far as I see it, maybe John disagrees,

I do not see a problem with talent in Wales.

It is easy to say that, Vaughan, but there is a danger that Wales becomes

isolated because it is one market,

as far as finding the source of this talent. These councils employ...

Cardiff employs 15,000 people and more.

It deals with an annual budget of half a billion.

There is a lot of responsibility. It is a huge job.

John, we have seen, in local government, situations where the

wages of ordinary employees have effectively been frozen for years.

And yet, the top officials, who say they are restructuring,

changing responsibilities, their wages have been increasing.

That does not help local government

because it kills the morale of the other employees.

I accept that.

There is a space that has been created through historical reasons.

There is an opportunity now,

through restructuring through the Williams Commission,

to look at that and I would welcome the establishment

of a commission to decide, as you have with councillors,

and maybe that is the answer,

an independent panel looking at wages across the public sector.

And then they make recommendations and politicians say,

"No, we'd better not!" Bethan, that's what happened in Westminster.

Well, on a Welsh level, I think that it is different.

We are open about politicians' wages.

But returning to Vaughan's point. I think that is important.

At the moment, councils are cutting budgets, but the leaders refuse

to look at pay, cutting jobs at the top, cutting things like mayors.

They want to keep their own jobs, but are prepared to cut wages

and the things that are important for people lower down.

-And that is not acceptable.

-Right, thank you for now.

We have to discuss a breaking story.

We heard Vaughan mention the Welsh Conservatives.

The news has broken that Andrew RT Davies,

captain of the Tory team in the Assembly, has reshuffled his cabinet.

He had a small squad, but there are now

four on the backbenches for defying Mr Davies in a vote on taxes.

So, they are out, Vaughan. What is really going on?

Well, I think what we have going on here is a battle for the heart

and soul of the Welsh Conservative Party, as far as devolution.

The irony tonight is that we're in a situation where

Andrew RT Davies,

the man who won he leadership as the candidate everyone thought

was the British candidate, the one with doubts over devolution,

fighting for more powers than the UK Government,

the Government of which his party's leader, David Cameron,

is in charge of, is willing to give Wales.

Four members, including the man who stood against him

for the leadership,

the one people maybe considered as more nationalistic, opposing that.

They are on the outside. Andrew RT Davies is on the inside.

But I would suggest that his grip on the leadership is slipping.

He now has political enemies on the backbenches,

he has an enemy in the Welsh Office, there is no doubt about that,

and other enemies in Westminster.

So, they have landed in an unfortunate situation,

to say the least, and I can't see how this one will work out.

Bethan, you work with the four.

We've tried contacting them, they're not speaking to the media tonight.

We have one quote from Antoinette Sandbach, "It is very

"unfortunate that Andrew RT Davies has chosen to divide the party."

That speaks volumes.

When someone says something like that from the backbenches...

What are they saying to you tonight, Bethan?

Well, I've just seen on Twitter that Nick Ramsay is on the train

with Mick Antoniw, on their way to a committee meeting in Brussels.

We understand he has lost the job of chairing that committee.

And so this is all happening in public

and it shows that there is no unity within the group and I think maybe I

am more cynical than Vaughan, maybe it is more to do with personalities.

There is not much love between Andrew RT Davies and people like

Nick Ramsay and Janet Finch-Saunders and maybe it's as simple as that.

He's just thrown his doll out of the pram.

The Conservatives are not here this evening to argue their corner.

We have invited them, no-one was available.

But strong leadership, they ignored the whip,

he told them to vote one way, they didn't, so out they go.

That's fair, isn't it?

Strong leadership is one thing, you need sensitive leadership too,

when you have so few in the family,

and I think the Welsh storm may have ended, as far as the weather,

but this political storm is just beginning and will be with us

for some time.

-Yes, it will be, won't it, Vaughan?

-Yes.

The problem you have is - will he last until the election

and if it does not, who could take his place?

-There are some prominent names.

-Are you burying him already?

No, I'm not burying him. Not by a long way.

He could re-establish himself, but I think it will be tough.

But looking around, who else could lead the group?

It doesn't seem to me that it would be easy for one of the four,

in particular Nick Ramsay, to come back in, so who else is there?

Paul Davies maybe, Angela Burns maybe. Who knows?

And this is all about the devolution of income tax.

It may not be causing problems for your party,

-but there are splits in a number of parties.

-Yes.

I think we need to show unity within the Assembly

and be involved in talks with Westminster,

especially regarding how the shape of Britain will change

whether Scotland gains independence or not.

And so it is unfortunate that this has led to Andrew RT Davies

making a decision.

I think it's important he keeps the group together.

He now has enemies outside the shadow cabinet

and that is something he should have done today.

John, as far as this problem regarding income tax,

are you in favour of devolution?

I think you mentioned it has split the Conservatives.

That has been the case with Labour, too.

It is not an easy matter with which to deal.

We may discuss that another night. Thank you for your company tonight.

That's the end for tonight. Join us again next Wednesday.

Until then, from all of us here, good night.