02/07/2014 Y Sgwrs

Councils, the Natural Resources Minister and the future of tourism,

plenty to discuss tonight on Y Sgwrs.

Yes, welcome. Vaughan and I are joined this

evening by Cardiff Labour Councillor Huw Thomas, Dr Marlene Davies,

an expert on local government, and the Plaid Cymru AM Simon Thomas.

A significant number of jobs could be lost at councils across Wales,

according to the chief executive of the WLGA.

Steve Thomas warned that the councils' financial situation is

worsening and they face cuts similar to those already seen in England.

He added that authorities here are less willing to cooperate

with their neighbours, in case

they are then forced by the Welsh Government to merge.

Well, following the comparisons with England, our correspondent, Janet

Ebenezer has been to London to find out more about a pioneering scheme.

There is no doubt that the situation for Welsh councils is worsening.

Last week, the Local Government Minister said that councils must

prepare for a difficult period of cutbacks,

which could vary from 1.5% and 4.5%.

This week, the Welsh Local Government Association warned

there would be redundancies if there are further budget cuts.

The term English-style cuts has been used to describe the cuts.

Let's take a look at the situation across the border.

All English councils have had to face budget cuts.

Parts of the north of England has witnessed cuts of up

to 27% to their budgets during the past four years.

I've travelled to an area where three councils are cooperating

to save money.

Since 2010, Hammersmith & Fulham, Westminster

and Kensington & Chelsea share children's services,

libraries and adult social care, to name but a few.

And two of them even share a chief executive.

Wyn Morgan has lived in Hammersmith for seven years and raised a family.

I am a governor at the local school

and everything comes from the three councils.

In the past, each council would have someone in charge of education,

each earning around £150,000 each.

But now it is one person running the whole thing,

so they have saved £300,000 just by getting rid of two people.

-Do you think more councils should do this?

-Yes, certainly.

I think of the example of Birmingham - a city of one million people

and they have one chief executive and he earns around £180,000.

In London, you have around 40 councils

and the heads all earn around he same amount for running

a council with maybe a population of 250,000.

But since the councils began working together in London,

at least 200 jobs have gone.

In Wales, there are plans to merge councils, so what does

one of the members of Westminster council cabinet think about that?

We think that shared services is a much better solution.

In terms of democracy,

you want a local council to be looking after local residents

and therefore, you can reduce costs by sharing services.

I don't think that we would ever want to merge the councils.

We have a very different attitude to many sort of things,

-and so it should be.

-Of course,

it's hard to compare a prosperous area such as Hammersmith with

areas across Wales,

but in sharing public services and a chief executive,

the three councils in London have made significant savings.

They've not gone as far as merging,

so the plans for Wales do go a step further.

But as regards the process of change -

that journey is only just beginning.

Janet Ebenezer on the train.

Vaughan, how much cooperation is there in Wales right now?

Well, the Welsh Government has been urging councils to

cooperate for years.

And there are some examples of that happening,

but not half as much as the Government would wish to see.

The clearest examples are the consortia now working

on improving education, but in truth it varies from one area to the next.

There is not a wide pattern of cooperation across all councils.

Huw, as regards Cardiff, do you cooperate with any other councils?

Yes, we work closely with the Vale of Glamorgan Council.

There are jobs shared in social services, for example,

between Cardiff and the Vale of Glamorgan.

As Vaughan said, there are patterns of sharing across Wales,

but I think there is a need for more of that.

I think there is a consensus on that.

Are you seeing savings already?

You do see savings, but we must also remember that there are some

jobs that you cannot have one person doing.

For example, you can't have someone running a library in Cardiff

who is also running library in Barry.

But it's at senior level that you need the cooperation.

There is still work to be done. That is the problem.

I think it is important not to exaggerate the savings.

Marlene, this makes sense, doesn't it? It works in London.

Three Conservative councils. But could it work in Wales?

Well, the problem that has already been mentioned is the fact

that councils are scared...

You mentioned Cardiff working with the Vale,

but the thing is that may not be the one you would merge with,

if the Assembly decides you need to merge.

Ceredigion working with Pembrokeshire,

maybe they wouldn't be working together when you merge.

That is a problem, so they are wary of starting the process,

if two or three years down the line they are not working together.

But they've had years where there was no threat of reorganisation

-and there has been very little cooperation.

-They are worried...

Well, are they willing to cooperate? That is the problem.

And there are a lot of terms - work and pay.

If you all work in the same place and someone is getting more

than someone else, it is going to be a problem.

-Yes, you are an expert and you sound very wary of this.

-Well, I am wary.

-I think maybe the answer is to cut the 22 councils...

-So, merging?

Merge them now and then you won't have a problem -

they will have to cooperate.

Simon Thomas, the role of the councils...

We know that the Williams Commission wants fewer councils,

but what about their role?

Steve Thomas this week suggesting maybe

they could become commissioning bodies.

Rather than providing services, they would be commissioning services.

Do you see that happening?

Well, I would be disappointed if that happened to local

authorities because I do see them as important in providing services.

We have a national government now responsible for commissioning

and national strategy, in the field of education and so on.

It must be provided by people who are more accountable to local

people, but we need far more radical reform of public services,

not just the local authorities - you have the fire service,

rescue, the police have been devolved, that will

be included, and of course, we are

missing the big picture where you have the main public service,

the NHS, with no democratic level

and no-one has mentioned what will happen with that.

So we need to put it all in the pot, in my opinion, rather these odd

mergers between one or two councils over the next couple of years.

But we have to tackle situations like Merthyr Council, for example.

It existed almost as a personal favour to

Ted Rowlands by David Hunt. It is not even an electoral constituency.

50,000 people, a chief executive and director of education.

It doesn't make sense. We have to tackle those small councils.

Yes, and remember many of them

have been retained through back door deals between Labour and the Tories.

Now we have devolution and a national government, that is

out of the question.

You also have other things developing in Wales,

such as the regional city, Cardiff is one of them, of course.

I am originally from the Valleys,

as you know, and Merthyr has always been

a problem for people in the Cynon Valley,

but I want to see more being done with the Valleys and the city

because there is strong economic development taking place.

We need to share that.

It's clear that the Welsh Government wants to see fewer councils,

but how far does the Labour Party want to go?

Elin Jones of Plaid Cymru, for example,

today suggested one health board for Wales.

Well, that is her opinion.

I think what we need to remember, as was mentioned in the report,

jobs will be lost.

The problem is you have a government n Westminster now that does not

believe in the state, if I can put it like that.

In Wales, I think

you have a different situation where the state, the government,

in Cardiff or locally, is making a difference to people's lives.

Changing that focus will devastate communities across Wales.

But what is difficult...

It would have been far easier to start on this

process during the good times.

There was a lot of money around at the start of the century.

The Welsh Government is approaching the situation a little late.

The thing is the last reorganisation took place in 1996.

We've had the Assembly since then. The Assembly is in place

and you can look at the local councils as parts of it.

It's important that the Assembly and these councils cooperate.

Sometimes they are maybe not cooperating.

It's them and us, some of the time. They don't want to do something

because they are being told what to do.

Even when the same party is in power for both!

How many councils will there be?

Take a look into your crystal ball, Marlene.

-Ten?

-Ten, maybe a dozen.

-When do you foresee that happening?

-The sooner the better, I would say.

We need to change what is going on.

You are talking about losing jobs, but jobs will be lost regardless.

The councils are running out of money.

I'm aware of that.

But I think it's important the electorate understands

the situation.

I think what is needed more than anything is finality.

Without that, councils cannot go out and recruit.

And that is what Labour has in mind - agree on a plan

for the manifesto in 2016 that will state clearly the set-up in Wales.

-I think that is important.

-We must move on. Thank you for now.

Next, it has been a tough time for the Natural Resources Minister.

The opposition parties in the Assembly are furious that

Alun Davies has kept his job in Carwyn Jones' cabinet,

despite a report concluding that he broke the ministerial

code of conduct in writing to Natural Resources Wales,

lobbying for a project to build a racetrack in his constituency.

Once again in the Chamber this afternoon,

the First Minister defended his decision not to sack Alun Davies.

It's important, as the code says,

that ministers are careful as regards how

they present themselves and I think the member for Blaenau Gwent,

as that is what he was in this report,

could have made things far clearer as regards how he was contacting

NRW, but in saying that, in my opinion, he has not gone too far.

First Minister Carwyn Jones.

Simon Thomas, you raised this once again in the Chamber today.

You are clearly furious and you're not going to let it go.

Not at all. Next week, we will raise a debate

and vote in the Assembly regarding this matter.

Not so much on Alun Davies himself,

hut the way the First Minister has administered the ministerial

code, which is supposed to stop this kind of misbehaviour by ministers.

And of course, I'm furious, but I would think Leighton Andrews

is even more furious because he lost his job for maybe less.

He was involved in something in his constituency, but this is

an independent body directly accountable to the minister.

Explain, Vaughan, the difference between the Leighton Andrews

and Alun Davies situations.

Well, Simon's point is correct - that it is part of Alun Davies'

portfolio, but the difference with Leighton Andrews is that he...

Not so much the protest against changes to hospitals,

but he was photographed outside a school where protests

were taking place against closing the school

and that decision could have arrived on his desk,

as the Education Minister, the minister who decides.

But I must say, I was listening to Carwyn Jones today

and the argument was almost theological.

It was the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost.

That he was writing as a member rather than a minister.

Well, how does a body like Natural Resources Wales forget

the fact that the person is writing to them as an AM,

but is also the minister to who they are accountable?

Especially when he is writing to them as an AM, reminding them

of their remit, for which he is the minister responsible.

-It's very odd.

-But Carwyn Jones is not going to back down.

No, I don't see why he should.

Alun Davies has apologised for failing to make it clear

he was acting as an AM and not as a minister.

It's important for us

to remember he is not the minister responsible for planning.

But he has broken the ministerial code of conduct.

And if a Conservative minister at Westminster had done so,

-the Labour Party would...

-Maria Miller.

Well... But saying that,

David Cameron was very keen to keep hold of Maria Miller and that is

why, it is the same situation at Westminster and Cardiff Bay...

It is the decision of the Prime Minister or First Minister.

There is a slight difference.

Carwyn Jones, fair play to him, asked for an inquiry,

but he didn't have to do that.

At Westminster and in Scotland, that is a requirement,

to bring in that independent element.

So in one sense...

I remember Rhodri Morgan deciding

whether he himself had broken the ministerial code of conduct.

So there is something isn't quite right about the system in Cardiff.

I think Labour people would maybe agree with that.

I think Carwyn should be praised for asking for an independent decision.

But he doesn't have to. The others do.

Well, that is maybe something that needs to be looked at.

But again, in local government we have the public service

ombudsman and that is not an effective body, to be honest.

Breaches occur and it takes months to go through the process.

Marlene, would you argue that a new code is required?

A more independent element?

Yes, I think it needs to be more independent.

Then you know what you must do.

He has broken the code, so something needs to be done.

I think what surprises people is...

We are holding a debate next week on the independence

required in such a code.

But what is surprising is that someone breaks the code, that is

acknowledged by the First Minister, but there is no penalty whatsoever.

Sacking is not the only option. Vince Cable broke the code...

If this happened within Plaid Cymru, what would happen?

Well, it happened to a Plaid Cymru minister

and he was forced to resign. So it does happen.

Every time it has happened within Plaid Cymru, during the short

time we have been in government, it has been dealt with appropriately.

There has not been a penalty in public,

but we don't know what has been said behind closed doors.

No, but we can guess!

It's clear that Carwyn Jones is not very happy.

I would think he has given him a pretty serious tongue-lashing,

at the very least.

It seems he will survive for the time being, Vaughan,

but will he survive a cabinet reshuffle?

There will certainly be a reshuffle before the next election,

I would suggest this autumn. I have a feeling...

Alun Davies does not have a huge base within the Labour group,

so I think Carwyn Jones will be watching him

-very carefully over the coming weeks...

-The Llanelwedd Show?

If there is a slip or if anything goes wrong at the Show, I think

his future would be fragile.

He may not have been punished, but he is on probation.

-We will see.

-We will see. Thank you for now.

Well, the sun is shining.

Everyone is reaching for the flip-flops and the sun cream,

but how many people will be visiting Wales over the summer?

Committees at Westminster and in Cardiff discussed tourism this week.

How effective is the body which is meant to sell

Wales to the world, Visit Wales?

Carl Roberts reports.

On days like today, where better than Wales as a holiday destination?

Ian Griffiths is preparing for a busy

and sunny weekend at his campsite near St David's.

The weather helps attract tourists, but there is a feeling that the

welcome offered to visitors does not receive enough worldwide publicity.

It is very important to concentrate on marketing,

especially in emerging economies, Brasil and maybe China and Japan.

In particular with Wales, we have so many new things.

Things like Zipworld in North Wales.

St David's Cathedral is four miles from Ian's campsite.

Tourists flock here in their thousands every year.

In 2006, the tourist board spent £50 million on marketing tourism

here in Wales. But last year, Visit Wales,

the body that succeeded the tourist board, had a budget of £7 million.

During the same period, Visit Scotland spent over £47 million,

Tourism Ireland spent over £36 million.

The fall in the total spent on marketing since 2006 has

corresponded with a fall in the number of overseas visitors.

And that was one of the conclusions at Westminster yesterday,

as the Welsh Affairs Select Committee questioned

representatives from Visit Britain as part of their inquiry

into how Wales is represented and promoted overseas.

My understanding is that the Government

and the minister decided to order Visit Wales not to give evidence.

The question arises - why?

If they are not confident about the work they are doing, questions

must be asked as to whether they're trying to hide something.

My feeling is that the performance of Visit Wales is

so disappointing, the Welsh Government

and the body are too afraid to put forward evidence.

A spokesperson on behalf of the Welsh Government said that

Visit Wales provided written evidence to the committee.

A year ago, the Welsh Government launched its tourism strategy,

targeting visitors from Ireland, the US and Germany.

The Welsh Government claims that strategy has already borne fruit.

The latest figures show that there has been

an increase in the number of visitors from overseas last year.

That follows a new Visit Wales marketing strategy.

The strategy included this advert.

Cerys Matthews's version of a traditional Welsh tune was

used on the advert.

The message - there's nowhere quite like Wales.

Quite right. Vaughan, a little history to begin with.

It is Visit Wales now,

but the previous tourist board was more independent.

The tourist board was one of Wales' oldest Quangos,

stretching back to the 1960s,

but it is important to remember that up until the 1980s,

it had just one purpose - to market Wales within Great Britain.

In the 1980s, a private measure gave the board the right to market

Wales overseas, but part of that responsibility remains with

the British Tourism Authority.

The truth is that with the income and budget Visit Wales has, with the

exception of the odd overseas market - Ireland and Holland,

traditionally - most of the marketing in the big

countries such, such as the US, Brasil

and China were mentioned in the report,

that must really be done by the British body,

as it is so expensive to market and advertise there.

Simon Thomas, is Visit Wales succeeding?

Well, they are not failing. That is true.

But we need to raise our game, there is no doubt about that.

The problem with going through Visit Britain

and so on is that London is such a huge tourist attraction.

People may go to Edinburgh, but they do not head west,

and certainly not further west than Cardiff.

So, there continues to be a huge job in marketing Wales.

Not just internationally, but also within Britain.

I think we are continuing to fail with that too.

As someone who lives in Aberystwyth, I would like to see...

I am aware how quiet Aberystwyth is once the students leave.

We are looking for the tourists now, but it all depends so much on

the weather rather than attractions and that is a problem in Wales.

Huw, is the brand right, the way that we sell Wales overseas?

I think it is, to be honest.

I'm no marketing expert, but as the film showed, I think

we have so much to offer in Wales.

I think that Visit Wales do a good job, to be honest.

If you look at the tourism figures,

they have increased year on year, as regards spending, since 2005.

But Visit Britain is the weakness.

Visit Britain gave evidence at Westminster this week.

They said, "We are dong the work, not Visit Wales."

I would disagree with that, to be honest.

Visit Wales targets the English market and does well.

As Simon said, Visit Britain is targeting London

for the figures and is not pushing people out towards the outskirts.

But until the money is there, Marlene, Wales is spending

so much less than Scotland, will things change?

You have to look at the fact - how do you enter Wales?

On the Severn Bridge. What happens on weekends? There are huge queues.

-How else do you arrive? Flying?

-Don't forget North Wales.

Maybe the A55 is better than the M4.

But flying into Wales - we need to improve that too.

You want tourists to come here, to return, or to recommend Wales,

not say they had a disaster because they couldn't land in Cardiff.

And I'm sure that is exactly why Carwyn Jones took

Cardiff Airport into public ownership.

That works.

All I will say is if the attractions are good enough and unique

enough, they will have the publicity without spending a penny.

If you look at the Snowdonia railway, for example...

It does not really need marketing

because they make their own publicity.

And so, maybe more imagination is needed,

as regards what we are offering,

rather than marketing something similar to what is

available in Cornwall or Scotland.

Yes, everyone stay in Wales for their holidays.

Thank you for joining us. And that's all for tonight.

There is no programme next week.

Vaughan and I will return in a fortnight with the final

programme of the political term.

Until then, thank you for joining us. Good night.