The Big Debate: Choosing Scotland's Future

Independence or the union? Both campaigns are now actively under

way. Don't forget, it's your choice APPLAUSE

Hello. Good evening. A very warm welcome from me Brian Taylor to all

of you watching at home. And a special welcome to the studio

audience who've come here to join us in Glasgow. This is the third

debate in a series of discussions we'll be holding in a run up to the

vote on independence expected in 2014. Big developments this week,

we've had the launch of the better together campaign from those

supporting the union side last month, the yes Scotland campaign

for independence got under way. Both have the propositions

proposals to put to the people and the people have gathered here from

all around Scotland, representing a cross-section of opinion with

questions they want to put to our panel. That panel is the Scottish

Conservative's former leading Annabel Goldie. She kind of stole

the show as a chat show host, the OprahWinfrey. We're delighted to be

joined by Joanne Curren. We have Fiona Hislop in the Scottish

Government. And last, but absolutely never least, Margot

McDonald, the independent MSP for the Lothains, a doubty campaign for

independence throughout all of her political life. Join me in

welcoming the panel. APPLAUSE

Let's go straight into the debate, straight to our first question.

It's from Colin Moore. Good evening panel, we have record unemployment,

record food and fuel prices and people are scared for their jobs.

Would the panel tell me the advantages of being in the United

Kingdom. Generally its epdz that faces the challenge. We have the

launch of Better Together saying the union is a great idea. Margaret

Curren treat this like the panel game Just AMinute, no deviation, or

hesitation. I'd be tempted to bash the Tories if we're dealing with

economic problems that Britain is facing. I think the best answer to

those challenges that Colin has high liteed as a Labour Government

that gives us different economic policy and gets growth back. You're

bashing the Tories. You're sitting next to Annabel Goldie who is your

partner in the campaign. That's the best way to get prosperity and

share that across the United Kingdom. I think it would be a huge

mistake for Scotland to break off from our biggest market. We need

that union to work better. To go down a different path would be a

huge mistake. Let's get markets working together across Europe,

across the world. There's growing interdependence. We need to work

together and share resources. you're talking about breaking up a

wee mistake, that's a negative point. Colin wants to hear positive

defence of the union. I think that is a positive defence. Where you

say the partnership works together. It's about making sure we get

growth into the economy. It's about recognising the skills of our

people. When I look at the challenges that I want to solve?

Scotland, be it tackling poverty or the lack of skills we've got, I

think we need to pool our resources across the United Kingdom, use the

institution that's is Britain, use our influence in Europe and the

world that we get part of that partnership. I was going to come to

Fiona Hislop but Margot's face win it's by a mile there Correct me if

I'm wrong, we'll not fall out over this, but don't you represent the

constituent in the UK that has the worst health records in the UK.

APPLAUSE I'm sorry, Brian, but that is the

record of the union. That has to go to be defended and explained.

not, no. If you can't, off with the union. I think that's a false

premise. It's fundamentally wrong. You think by separating us, there

will solve poverty, that's a fallacy. We need to fight across

the union to make sure we can solve poverty. I will come to you in a

second. Let's go to the audience. If we stay as a union, how do you

propose to make these market chaifrpgdz and bring jobs into the

economy? Because it's fair number to say it, but you have to give an

answer. And the gentleman here. like to say the benefits of being

in the union, 12 billion more invested than we actually produce

in Scotland. The GDP is offset by 12 million spending. If you get rid

of that, fine, but I'll be moving. Scotland is subsidised by the rest

of the UK? Yeah I think so. Back row please. Can I ask the panel, Mr

Cameron has promised this 70% of our assets if we all vote no. Why

shouldn't we vote yes? And receive 100%?

APPLAUSE Several points there, pro-

independence, pro-the union. Independence, a Yes vote is the

simplest and quickest way to get the levers of power that we need to

get the jobs. This is about an opportunity, people deciding

themselves where the advantage lies for Scotland,. We're an energy rich

country. We shouldn't be having people who can't afford to heat

their houses. We should have the opportunities for jobs. That comes

through having decision making with the people of Scotland, who can

decide things in a way that adapts and meets their needs. What about

the point that we ain't got the cash that Scotland is subdiesed bit

UK? One of the best things about the debate taking place just now is

we have recognition finally, even from people who are arguing no,

that if Scotland chos it, we are in a position to do it. We are capable

of doing it financially. That's a good platform to engage this debate

over the next two years. Finally, whether it's David Cameron or

others, there's recognition that Scotland can afford this. The

debate becomes of what would you do with those powers? The difference

is the people of Scotland decide not the Westminster Government.

draw comfort from one thing Fiona has said, she seems to accept the

common sense of a simple question. That's helpful to get that

challenge out of the road. Going back to the question, I do think we

need to lock at some facts here. -- look at facts here. We're not alone

in facing difficulties, whether in Fiona's desired independent

Scotland or in the current structure, you only have to ask the

people of Greece, Portugal and elsewhere, whether they have

challenges. Of course they have. It is actually a problem to think

constitutional change will fix that. What matters is whether one

structure gives us a better chance of getting out of these

difficulties. So who's in charge rather than

where the power lies? It's partly that. But partly again, to take

issue with what Fiona has been saying, Fiona says that even the

pro-United Kingdom grouping accepts the argument that an independent

Scotland could afford to be an independent Scotland. That's not

quite correct phone ya. What -- Fiona. Theoretically Scotland could

be independent. That's not the debate. The debate is what

arrangement serves us better. Can I give you an example? Yes, briefly.

To put this into perspective, because we're in the United Kingdom,

we bailed out the Scottish banks. It cost us �470 billion pounds to

do that. Do you understand that that actually at the moment

represents about 16 Scottish annual budgets. That's the scale of what

we're talking about. Margaret Curran. Fiona says that Scotland

needs to have hands on its levers to fix the great challenges. I'm

confused by what the SNP mean. They say they want the hands on the

levers, but then our backs will be looked at by the Bank of England.

We are going to split money across the fiscal policy. I understand

Margot's point of view. She says complete independence. But that's

what the SNP are offering. Margo? To clear up something, the

connection between the constitutional question and

economic growth. If you look at Latvia and Lithuania and Estonia,

they became independent and their economies boomed. People wept there,

entrepreneurs went there because it was new and exciting. How about

that in Scotland? Gentleman in the front row. If or when the SNP

economic miracle fails, who bails us out? The UK? Europe or Sean

Connery? The gentleman there. Yes, sir. The panel seem to be saying

that within the UK, Scotland's better off. But don't the Benelux

countries work well. They're small countries but work within Europe.

The young gentleman. I'd like to ask what would be better in the

union than an independent Scotland. The gentleman in a beard. Both

beards. Currently the United Kingdom national debt is over a

trillion pounds... �147 trillion. How are we going to pay that off?

The governor of the Bank of England says the recession will last for

ten years at least. The UK Government borrowed 20 billion last

month alone. I would like to point out to the

panel that if we are going to make things better in Scotland in an

independent Scotland, we have to have control of taxation. And one

of the worst kinds of taxation to my mind is VAT. VAT is imposed by

being a member of the European Union and that is a redistributive

tax. Thank you. I'd like to take up issue with Annabel about the Royal

Bank of Scotland. Last time I checked was 90% was NatWest bank.

Those are English banks, English debts as much as Scottish debts.

Scots would be responsible for 10%. At the moment we're responsible for

a large chunk of an economic problems. Wasn't it them trying to

take over ABN AMRO. How can you convince somebody like

me that has been dreaming for years for independence and what we're

getting is just moving into Europe. We're not going to get independence.

I can't vote yes to this because we're not getting independence.

regard it as short of independence, is it the European business?

don't know if I'm part -- allowed to say it, but I don't want to be

part of the United States of Germany. This is to Margaret, you

say the solutions to poverty and unemployment is instead of becoming

independent to vote for Labour, since 1979, five times the people

of Scotland at UK elections voted Labour and what we got was a Tory

Government. Isn't it a case of Vote Labour get Tory until we're

independent.?. Back row please. Annabel's compare sons with Greece

and Portugal are ridiculous. They're not oil rich countries like

we are. That's ridiculous. Gosh, loads to talk about.

Margaret,... Very quickly. Oh, how I agree with you, Sir. Europe

changed the min The Bells O Peover Berlin Wall came down. No-one

looked at it -- Europe changed the minute the Berlin Wall came down.

We think about the free trade area, because we should be trading with

Europe, but we shouldn't be run from Brussels. Clarify something if

you would. Are you in the yes Scotland campaign or not? I'm

puzzled. Of course, I'm yes for Scotland. But there's a better way

to do it. The campaign that was launched by Alex Salmond, the

launch held, are you part of that team, are you on that squad?

position is... You went against it because of control freakery.

don't like that either! Are you in or out? I will vote yes absolutely

without equivocation. You're not part of that team? At the moment I

want to show there's a room for independence. There's a room for

people who think like that gentleman, who realises it doesn't

have to be the EU. Independent Scotland can be independent or out

of it. There's a lot more choice than offered by the parties.

Currently Scotland is in the European Union, will continue to be

so. That's what the SNP Government's position is. Also on

the general point about the economy. I think the point is was in the

'Yes' campaign, there are people who will see and want to see a

different future for Scotland. We can only make those decisions once

we're independent. In terms of the economy, this is the crux of this.

People want to know they're going to be able to have an opportunity

to have more jobs here. We've proved it already with the survey

on the 19th June, that Scotland is topping the whole of the UK in

terms of jobs and investment coming here. How much more can we do, if

we've got the opportunities on taxation and the powers to make a

difference. Taxation is one of those areas. Benefits and we have

to come onto benefits. We will talk about that later. Exactly. Let's

leave that for later. I think we need to get into the central matter

of the economy and just exactly is being proposed bit SNP. And in

reference to this gentleman's question. Actually what's on offer

I think gives Scotland less economic power. Firstly, it seems

to be that we are willing to be in any union except the one on our

doorstep, except with our greatest partner and market. If you look at

what the SNP are actually proposing, what they're saying is that the

Bank of England will control our currency and that we will have no

say over interest rates, over borrowing, which will have...

The Bank of England was given independence in 1997 as one of the

first decisions by Gordon Brown. In terms of how we run our economy, it

is important to recognise we would still operate within that market,

trading goods and services. It would make sense to the rest of the

UK to benefit from the balance of payments that the Scottish economy

would have. We are in a stronger fiscal position currently compared

to the rest of the UK because we have strong exports. If you think

of opportunities in terms of new industries, we are in a stronger

place if we can exploit them. of all, the premise is splitting

financial and monetary policy and every country in the world is

moving against that. That is a fact, everybody is moving against that.

It is causing enormous difficulty when you split fiscal and monetary

policy for people. Secondly, although the Bank of England has

operational independence there is absolutely no doubt that it is

guided by the policy of the UK Treasury. What would happen if the

its remaining UK, the English Government, or whatever department

was left, they would determine the policy, the general direction of

monetary policy in Britain. We would have absolutely... Let me be

clear about this. Are you telling me you are happy with a model of

independence that says, yes, Scotland can have fiscal powers but

we will pass over our monetary policy to a foreign power? Is that

your definition of independence., come on. The monetary framework, in

terms of the same market, you can use that framework. The issue is

about governance. It is quite clear, and we have had experts saying it,

including an ex-member of the Monetary Policy Committee, saying

that the SNP proposal is perfectly feasible. Are you not in effect

saying that Scotland is better governed by the conservative UK

Government than governed by independent Scottish government,

which might well be Labour? I think that is a false choice. How is it a

false choice if it happens to be reality? The Conservatives have

given the UK for far longer than Labour in the last 50 years. What

we are best to do is to have a UK labour Government. I get the

concept, but what is your second preference, your second choice?

do not see it in those terms at all. Oh, come on! You prefer a UK Tory

government to a Scottish Labour government? Of course not. But I

absolutely believe it is in the best interests of the poorest

people in Scotland to have a strong and vibrant UK. That is why we have

British trade unions and a British welfare-state because of that.

if the outcome is that it is governed by the Conservative Party

which you have called a right-wing Tory government in a speech in 2009.

You said, the Tories abandoned families and offered no support to

people in desperate circumstances. You said Margaret Thatcher should

apologise to Glasgow for policies that wreaked havoc on our city. She

closed the shipyards and steel mills and believed unemployment was

a price worth paying. You prefer a UK Conservative government to a

Scottish Labour Government? If the problem with a vote for

independence is that it is forever. That is a one-way ticket. And there

is no guarantee in an independent Scotland you would never get a Tory

government ever again. Well, there is a thought to ponder. It could be

your comeback! Can I just say, unless I have missed something,

Brian, Scotland had a Westminster Labour Government for 15 years. And

it currently has a Conservative Government. I do not think that is

the issue. This is not about whether you like or dislike Tony

Blair, Gordon Brown, David Cameron, George Osborne. This is actually

about what is the best partnership arrangement for Scotland.

Legitimate the, Margaret -- Fiona and Margot's say independence is

the best thing to do. I am uneasy about some of the assertions being

made. There may be a legitimate view that in an independent

Scotland you would immediately get into a club to all of the oil and

gas fields of the North Sea. I can tell you now that the right to that

title would be challenged by some of the operators and owners of

those fields. You do not think it is Scotland's oil? At the end of

the day, what is being advocated as a certainty by Fiona is an

exceedingly opaque legal uncertainty. The other thing is, if

you look at Jobs, I am looking at things like the fares. The few

yards across the River Clyde from here, we have shipbuilding yards,

naval defence work on both sides of the river. The thing is, if we had

an independent Scotland, we have to bid as a foreign country for royal

naval work. Thank you for that. That is got -- not good news.

to the audience for his second question which builds of that one.

I am looking for Adele Gray, please. DU think somebody can sing for us,

and wholeheartedly if they vote No in the referendum? Alistair Darling

was stressing that he could be a patriotic Scot and still in favour

of the Union. I believe it is sophistry to split patriotism and

nationalism. It is a hiding place for folk who are Scottish, know

that they are Scottish but had somehow got to defend not doing as

Margaret has gone there. Your husband called the Motty

nationalists. He has called them everything. The important point to

come from Annabel's contribution was there she talked about defence.

The there are 29,000 people now in the British Navy. The Admiral's say

that they cannot afford to have this aircraft carrier that will

never sail anywhere because Great Britain, stronger together,

remember, cannot afford to put any planes on it. They would not want

to build that on the Clyde. They could build vessels that we need

here. Let's stick to independence and patriotism. Defence was the

previous debate. Do you believe you can be a patriotic Scot, a fervent

patriotic Scot and support the Union? You can make political

choices but that does not affect how you are in terms of your

identity. I can understand people might want to ask that question but

my answer to that is that I am a Scot, and I am passionate about

Scotland. You do not question the patriotism of your opponents in

this debate? Of course not. I am reassured to hear that because I

think there has been unease about some elements lurking within your

party. One of your own colleagues in the Scottish Parliament said

that Labour, Liberal Democrat and Conservative parties were anti-

Scottish. I thought that was frankly a provocative remark but it

was also a profoundly stupid remark, and the owner has had the good

sense not to fall into that trap. When we are talking about

patriotism, this is not about who is a better Scott. I am as

patriotic as Alex Salmond, he is no less patriotic than I am. What the

debate was about his how we genuinely think the country which

we love is best served. -- what the It is a fallacy to think are you

Scottish in the sense that a Swede is a Swede or a poll is Polish. You

are not. You are British. How do the panel reactor that? Article 15

of the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights says that you have

the right to nationality. Given that many people in Scotland do not

feel British and do not fit into that straitjacket of Unionism, how

do you feel about this? As somebody who was born English

and lives in Scotland and is very proud to be Scottish, the only

reason that the Labour Party in Westminster want to keep Scotland

is because they would have down little charge of getting in again -

- they would have very little chance of getting in again. The

only reason that the No campaigners and the Scottish Parliament do not

want it is because they do not want the ultimate responsibility. In the

front row. I would love an independent Scotland, but not at

the cost of being tied to Europe and the possibility of ending up

with its toxic currency. I would just like to say, we have

loads of English boys playing for Scotland and if they can sing

Flower of Scotland, anybody can. It does not matter. If you feel

Scottish, sing Flower of Scotland. It has no knock-on effect on

whether you do or do not want independence. You do not think that

identity as an impact? I am a Scot, end of. And I want independence.

But that does not mean that somebody who does not share my view

I do not think is Scottish. Gentlemen. Independence is the

normal state of affairs for most countries on earth, and these

countries do not refer to their own independence in negative terms. By

using scary sounding phrases to describe independence for Scotland,

such as separation, break-up and going it alone, are the No campaign

trying to frighten people? When will Scottish Labour and

Conservative parties decided to back independence for Scotland?

When Scotland becomes independent, what part will they play? And could

you raise your hands again. I am fiercely patriotic, but I feel that

the decision we make is for the future of the country so it should

not be dependent on Party politics or anything like that.

I would just like to point out that the UK is independent. You are

content with that? Yes. Lots of speculation about a second

question. As part of that, we have had concerns about Europe, so when

we have a second question, why not make it whether we are part of the

EU? Annabel Goldie. A whole cocktail of ideas in there. Might I

say to the lady sitting over there that the political challenge for me

at the moment is... Survival! The political challenge for me is

to argue as strongly as I can for the position of Scotland remaining

in the United Kingdom so I am not reflecting on a post-referendum

situation. I think we are likely to remain within the United Kingdom.

Your question is not for the present. Can I come to the

interesting point about the second question? Do you mind if you don't,

because that is actually our next question? I beg your pardon. There

have been a range of views put forward here. I am pleased that

there is some debate about this because it is important that people

like myself, who believe very much in the union, are still Scottish

and as patriotic as anybody else. It is insulting for that to ever be

questioned. It is important that we have that tenor. Alex Salmond has

not question that, and Nicola Sturgeon has not. I think we need

to have this debate as we go forward. The gentleman who said

that we are getting going negative about it... Forgive me, I was not

implying there was anything wrong with his shirt. Does because it is

blue. -- just because. I could equally argue that I think the pro-

separation case is equally negative. We are going to have that. But I

think we have to get real in this debate, and I think that Scotland

has to wake up to the enormity of the decision we are making. I

understand if you take a different political perspective, but you need

to honestly understand that many people in Scotland see it. To me,

that is reality. There is no doubt when we make this decision that it

is about separation, it is about break-up, it is about a fundamental,

irrevocable change. Do not underestimate the capability of the

Scottish people to understand the importance of this decision. I

think it is exciting, I think it is an opportunity, and I think if we

can have a debate about how we shake our own future, that is the

positive language we should be discussing. We will move on to the

question, if you will allow me, the What does the panel think about

more powers for Scotland if it remains in the UK? That's the

possibility of there being a question on devo max or deefyo plus

as well. Is it? Is it not? If it's not, that it's about more powers

for Scotland being offered by those who support the union. Can you

clarify what those would be and when they would arrive? The reason

that I question that, I think there's a debate to be had about

devolution. It's a process not an end in itself. It will keep

developing. How is that process going? If there are powers to come,

what are they and when do they come? That's a conversation we need

to have. Could we have it now? APPLAUSE

Let me make my case. Because it's a very important point that needs to

be made. On you go. There is a very distinct difference between how we

stay in the partnership and how we develop that relationship and

whether or not we leave it. If you want to leave it, that's a very

credible argument. But if you want to stay, then we argue about how to

develop devolution, don't confuse the two. You don't think you have

to publish details in advance of the referendum? Let's see how the

debate goes. I'll argue strongly for the development of devolution.

There's a whole debate about the governance of Scotland.. I don't

want just to give powers to more politicians. I want to give powers

to the people of Scotland. first of all, decide what it is you

would like to do through the Scottish Parliament. Once you've

decided what you'd like to do, you decide where you get the money from.

And believe you me, you can't tackle poverty, you cannot tackle

the inequalities we've got in Scotland if you leave defence and

if you leave foreign affairs and the economy with London. That

always seems to be the case. Because if you do, you'll be

spending the money you should be spending on old people. You'll be

spending it on Trident. You'll be spending it on great big aircraft

carriers. So there's fundamental decisions to be made, but first of

all, decide what you want to do from a Scottish basis, then you'll

say what the requisite powers are and only then you have a referendum.

Right at the back. I think tonight Margaret Curran has been fond of

saying it's a false choice. I think it's a false choice about saying we

have to decide between independence now and devolution later. I think

we should have that debate now as well. The gentleman in the second

row and the third row, please. Hypothetically, if Scotland was to

say yes to independence, has anybody got any idea how long a

time frame it would be between the vote and full independence? Good

question. Could we have a question like the, some question for less

powers or less power for Alex Salmond then in our country!

question perhaps on the abolition of the Parliament, would you in

favour this afternoon? Yeah. You're getting a ripple of applause.

Gentleman in the front row. Shouldn't there be an issue about

the tactics of this campaign. Surely for Labour supporters, right,

by and large they want social justice, they want poverty to be

tackled, equality. They don't want a Tory Government in London with

those economics and a place that can elect somebody like Boris

Johnson as mayor, deciding what the economic policy of this country

should be. Margaret Curran briefly. My argument is not that somehow I'm

saying it's a choice either abolish poverty or not. It seems the best

way to abolish poverty is by using the powers across the United

Kingdom. When we had a Labour Government tore 13 years, when we

introduced tax credits, �13 billion, �1.5 billion in Scotland. We

introduced tax credits. The SNP didn't say, that's great. What they

did say... But the case has always been that whether you've got a

Labour Government or Tory Government, we've always had this

debate that the only answer Scotland needs is independence

because the union actually damages Scotland's economic interests. My

argument to you is not... I disagree with the man who claps so

loudly. My argument is not that it's the English that damages our

economic interest. It's the political alliance. It's the

politics. Tory Government damage Scotland not the English that

damage Scotland. Hang on a second. Annabel Goldie, your Prime Minister,

David Cameron, has hinted or suggested that there could be more

powers for Scotland in the event of a No vote. Do we not need more

detail on that. If we don't get more detail, what does the No vote

imply? You say you don't know what a Yes vote is or inds is, if you

vote no and you don't know what is coming in further powers, you don't

know what the No vote implys either. Let's strip this back to the bare

essentials. In the audience there are those who support independence

and they are vociferous. There are also people who think we're better

remaining within the United Kingdom. And there's an element who really

is open to discussions on this and is looking for guidance. At the

moment, we're in the United Kingdom. The person that wants to change

that and have independence is Alex Salmond. That's a perfectly fair

proposition, I don't agree, but he's entitled to make that argument.

He should put that question. Yes, because you need a referendum to go

from where we are now to independence. You do not need a ref

doum change, develop, increase, alter the powers of devolution.

We've just done it. We've passed the second Scotland Act with far

reaching powers. Given the referendum is under way and the

Prime Minister has suggested there could be further powers, should you

not specify now what those are rather than leaving it vague?

APPLAUSE Because I think the dilemma in

doing that and it goes back to this gentleman's question, I think,

about ballot paper and referendum and how many questions you have,

the dilemma is and it's emerging tonight, people have a whole

variety of views about whether we have two questions, three questions

or ten questions. That is the problem. We need clarity. May I

conclude? Yes. I may disagree with the objective independence, I do

not disagree with a clear question put to Scotland as to whether it

wants that or not? A clear single question. Absolutely. I think that

when it comes to hints and suggestions from our Prime Minister,

David Cameron, we must bear in mind this is the man that made a cast-

iron guarantee that we would have a referendum on Europe. We still

haven't had it. It he to be trusted? I think not. Are the

Unionist leadership afraid to let the people speak on this question

of further devolution because they know the result would seriously

undermine their ability to dictate the terms of any further measure of

devolution, why not put that power into the hands of the people?

you. I've heard a lot of people saying that further devolution or

localisation of power to Scotland is right, that we should be able to

have in the referendum. But I disagree with. That I think you

have the right of self- determination in the UN to

determine which country you're in, but localisation of powers should

be a matter for the UK Government. Please, Fiona has been weight.

points: It's not the first time that a Tory Prime Minister has said

vote no and we'll give you more powers later and what happened? We

didn't get powers. We didn't get powers for 20-odd years. Learn the

lessons of history. This is about democracy. I want to see on

independent Scotland. I will vote yes. I am part of the yes campaign,

but I recognise that there are large number of people in Scotland,

who might not want to have all those powers, but might want other

powers. That position is not reflected by an political position.

Hang on a cotton picking second. You can argue that. If you want a

mandate for independence you put yes or no on independence. That

mandates your government to negotiate. If it's more powers or

devo max that's not in your hands. That's in the hands of the UK

Government. If you put that on the paper, it's for no-one. There are a

large number of people, who we have yet to convince, I want to convince

them to vote yes. Isn't Alistair Darling right, you wopbl want the

second question on the paper because you think it will be no to

the first? APPLAUSE

Not at all. It's a back up? I am absolutely confident that we can

get a Yes vote in that referendum in two years' time. Why don't you

put it as a straight question - yes or not? Why toy with the second

question? Because I recognise and this is about democracy, it's not

about party. We've got 21,000 responses to go through to the

consultation that's taking place. I think that's ten times more than

the United Kingdom consultation. We have got to respect the right in

this debate, I'm not closing that door. The people closing off the

door are those saying we shouldn't engage with people who have a

different point of view. I think we have to respect people... The First

Minister yesterday quoted from exodus, he said "Let my people go."

He did not say "Let my people have a multioption referendum". It was a

straightforward question he was putting. I want to see a Yes vote

for independence, but let's respect the right of people to have an

alternative if they want that. Let's see the results of the

consultation first. The First Minister is a man of no small self-

importance and when he... APPLAUSE

When he quoted from the Bible he didn't complete the quote that they

may serve me in the wilderness. This is to me a rather frightening

pros significance. Can I go back to what -- proposition. Can I go back

to what Fiona says. The case doesn't stack up. Since 2007 the

SNP have wanted a referendum on independence. You accept they have

a mandate for that? In a Referendum Bill. They must have known what

they wanted to ask the people of Scotland. I can't believe having

spent 80 years as I party wanting independence, they couldn't put a

question people would answer. It seems bizarre that having existed

Fiona your political passion and breath depends and your political

desire to achieve independence that A, you either don't know how to ask

the question, you don't want to ask the question or you want to ask

another question all together because you're scared of losing the

first question. I think at the heart of this is also a practical

problem. All of us need to be honest about that. If we had two

questions, for example, and 51% of people said yes, go for

independence, depending on what the actual question ends up as, as 95%

say we don't... Could you make them compete with each other? How do you

resolve that? Alex Salmond says he will interpret that as a vote for

independence. This is a big decision. Let's not confuse it.

Let's make the decision and start getting on with things that really

matter. The SNP made a mess of introducing the idea of the

referendum. There should have been much more information and education

on the policies that we've been talking about tonight before you

say we'll have a referendum. But any way, we are where we are. The

idea of having two questions addressing quite different

constituencies and jurisdictions, the only one that we can answer of

ourself and no-one can gainsay is the independence one. Are you

against the second question then? Of course I am. I always have been.

I told them that in Parliament I'm not telling you anything I haven't

told Alex. I thought it was a secret between us! I was speaking

to an audience in England two nights ago in Kensington, well

educated and all the rest of it. These folk hate us now. Because

they accuse us... That's not true. There was other Scottish

journalists there, you can check with them. We have now got an

English political society that's alerted to the notion of

independence and devolution and they will want to have a say if

further powers are going to be devolves. So I don't think we can

say that they shouldn't have. the front row. -- Gentleman in the

front row. In Italy we have an unelected Prime Minister. In

Ireland and Greece economic policy daik Tateed by the European sen --

dictated by the European Central Bank. Because the SNP don't like

the fact a UK election has elected a coalition Government they don't

like being dominated by the Tories. This isn't democracy. Democracy has

take -- taken place. People spoke about the benefits of the UK. We

voted for our Government. The United Kingdom voted for the

coalition that we have at the moment.

Fiona, particularly on morguo's point. The problem is Scotland has

repeatedly voted against the Conservatives and still got a Tory

ALL SPEAK AT ONCE This is wherein terms, there will

be differences of opinion, we have yet as a government to resolve what

whe think would be appropriate. you think there should be a second

question or not? There's a consultation taking place. It would

be wrong of me to pre-emt that. It's right to consult with people

to ask if there should be one or Before the next question, I should

mention that if you want to take part in this, to gain more

information on this and many other issues, the Scotland Future section

of the BBC website is the place. Thank you for that. There is more

to come. The hands are raised. The next question comes from miles web.

What changes would the panel make to the benefit system to suit

Scotland? Margaret Curran. I would immediately cancel what the Tories

are doing. We will invariably come back to whether Scotland should

have its own welfare benefits system. What is intriguing is that

as a result of the current legislation in Westminster, a

number of benefits have already been devolved to Scotland. The

Social Fund, for example. I would be interested to know what the SNP

would do with the social fund in Scotland. We need to debate what

type of welfare system we want to have a. I think we get distribution

of resources across the UK, which is of benefit to the Scottish

people. Because of the bigger economy. In 2010, three times the

amount was spent on welfare in Scotland than was raised through

well and gas. With the greatest of respect to people, I do not think

you can have a facile debate which says, if we were independent we

would not have what the Tories are doing and we would just keep the

welfare state intact. By definition, you need to debate welfare. If we

are doing so, I want to hear what those proposing independence would

tell us about the future of welfare benefits in Scotland. Just because

we are devolved, it would not protect them. So the changes after

another general election are driven by economic necessity? I think they

are driven a lot by ideology. As we have seen from the Prime Minister

this week, I think they are driven by a misunderstanding of how

certain people live. I am not against changing the welfare reform

system but it has to be done on the basis of fairness. The current

Government is changing the benefits and allowances available for the

disabled. Would a future Scottish Parliament carry on with these

changes, or would they reinstate the things like the Disability

living Allowance, which is a non- means based allowance for disabled

folk? Are you saying that the current changes are damaging? Are

you optimistic that there could be changed? I am worried because there

is no information. It leaves people anxious? Yes. The Disability living

Allowance is going to two components, mobility and care. Many

people use the mobility component to get Aith mobility vehicle. Under

a Scottish Parliament, would we have to return those vehicles?

I have a few points to make. First of all, Margaret Curran, how many

councillors will be buying houses for �1? Secondly, Annabel Goldie, I

am from Govan, where they have the shipyards, and I'm hearing that you

have sold our park along the Clyde. Could you stick to welfare? The

gentleman in the green shirt. have to go back to an earlier

intervention. Margaret Curran, I resent the she cast a slur on me

and said that I was anti- English. I am anti- Westminster government.

Anybody on welfare, please. welfare reform issue is quite

interesting to me, because Margaret Curran talks about the Labour Party.

The Labour Party introduced a component of the new changes, now

that the Westminster Government are forcing it through. Can you tell me

how contradictory that is? With Scotland receiving benefits

such as the free prescription, tuition fees and a higher

percentage of Scottish citizens on incapacity benefit than England, I

would be interested how an independent Scotland could continue

to fund this with the decline of the oil industry. The gentleman at

the back. A lot of points are made about Scotland having free

prescriptions and that type of thing, but it is just that the UK

Government chooses to spend its money on other things, like Trident,

the Olympics, Jubilee, etc. Can I pick up what Margo MacDonald

said earlier about we need to decide what we want and then choose

how we are going to get the money? I do not believe politicians have a

grasp of the potential time bomb in terms of the demands on welfare and

health care, with 20 years' time we will have twice as many over 70 as

we have in the prison population. So nobody can afford it, UK

Government, Scottish Government, autonomous, devolved, whatever.

are stronger together than separate. I think the cuts to the -- I think

this cuts to the central part of the argument. It is about choices,

about making decisions about what you want as a politician, the

society you want. That is why we have three personal care in

Scotland, because it was important to us. In terms of free

prescriptions, that is a choice we wanted to make. One welfare, we

should be able to make those choices about what suits Scotland.

Yesterday, we passed a bill to try to see off some of the worst

effects of welfare reforms coming from the Westminster Government. We

should not be just trying to see off the worst effects. If we had

complete control of the welfare system, we could make the choices

to make a difference. But what about the point that no government

will be able to afford it? Why do we have to control the levers of

power? Because in terms of Scotland we have to make sure we have more

on our younger generation in employment, because we have a

growing elderly population, more than the rest of the UK. We could

make sure our changes to our taxation system and our benefits

system could help to support what will be a growing elderly

population. The best way to do that is to get people into work, get the

economy growing. To get that, we need the resources and the

opportunity to use the resources we have in this country. How can you

actually say that, when the benefit system at the moment is an absolute

shambles? When you try and get benefits for your family, nobody is

interested in helping you. How is it going to improve with you taking

over the benefits system? Because you are right that the way it is

working is not working properly, so at least we would have an

opportunity to do it differently and better. First of all,

incapacity benefit has actually been scrapped at the moment. It is

being changed to employment support allowance. Would that still be

being scrapped? Also, the welfare state and unemployment go hand in

hand. How would an independent Scotland be able to provide

training and education for people to move on and get new jobs? We do

not have Jobcentres. We need to bring them together and provide a

better service. I am sorry, but this is back to basics, for those

of you old enough to remember what that was like. This is about

integrating welfare and benefits and your taxation system. It is

having a common approach to things. Like, for example, not being afraid

to say it is immoral, it is obscene that the chairman of these thanks,

the chief executives of these banks should earn 237 times what the

average worker earns. There should be a cap on wages, for example. He

can point to any number of ways in which the system could be improved.

-- you can point. And from my point of view, made more fair. What I do

not understand is why we have got to be bigger or smaller. You take

that basic decision, and then you decide which of the parties to

agree with and follow that party. Could you not redistribute wealth

more in a larger economy, the size of the United States, for example,

or the UK? How come since I have been in politics there have been

Labour and Tory governments and small coalitions in Westminster.

And when I was coming into politics, one child in 10 in Scotland was

born to fail. It is now one child in three. That is their record.

does not matter if you're a big or small country. Your approach to

welfare will be guided by basic political principles. But I have

never heard anybody yet say to me, here is one welfare policy that you

will be improved by the fact that you are an independent Scotland.

Not one. I think the gentleman at the back made a very important

point. Welfare reform is contentious, we know that, and yet

something has to be done. Because we must ensure that we have a

system that actually does provide help to those who need it. That is

not what the system was doing, and the reforms are to try and target

resources to those that require it. In Scotland, there are crummy 1

million pension recipients underwritten by the UK Treasury.

But there are currently 1 million pension recipients. Finally, the

sport. Kirsty. With the euro 2012 final this weekend, would

independence mean Scotland could make the next major tournament.

Spain, Italy... Since the advent of devolution, Scotland have not

qualified for the European championships, not qualified for

the World Cup. We were poor at football before but we are even

worse now. If devolution has not delivered it, let's make sure we

look at it. The Margo MacDonald. You are a heads found. -- Bureau

I remember the glory days of Argentina. As an independent

country, we could say we are going to stage the European Championships,

because we already staged big golf events. We could do it if we

decided. One thing we will not be doing if I have anything to do with

it is staging the Olympics. Margaret Curran, would we qualify

for Europe if we were independent? That would be wonderful. If we

worked at it a bit harder, we do not need to be independent to do

that. Do you know what? It is good to dream, and I applaud that. But

the young man I'm rooting for at the moment is Andy Murray and he

needs our support right now. reason they do not do well is that

there are too many Dundee United players chosen by Craig Levein.

would pick St Johnstone players tomorrow. Thank you all very much

for taking part in a tremendous debate. Light-hearted towards the

close. Superb. Thank you to the panel as well. We are out of time.

Thank you to the panellists and the studio audience, and thank you to

you at home for watching, as we choose Scotland's future. There

will be more debates to come here on BBC Scotland, so please join us

again. From all of the team on the programme, have a very good evening.