The European Union: In or Out?

it? Tonight, live from the BBC's Broadcasting House in London, Nick

Clegg and Nigel Farage set out their arguments for and against.

APPLAUSE Welcome to the BBC's Radio Theatre

for tonight's live debate on Britain's membership of the European

Union. Between the Deputy Prime Minister and leader of the Liberal

Democrats, Nick Clegg, and Nigel Farage, leader of the UK

Independence Party. The rules for this debate are fairly simple. Each

will make a one minute opening statement. They have one minute to

start off the debate on every topic we cover. At the end of the hour

another minute each to summer rise their position. Questions are going

to come from our audience, who have been chosen to represent both sides

of the case, and un uns as well. Neither side has seen the questions

in advance. Bbc.co.uk/politics.

Nigel Farage and Nick Clegg drew straws to decide who should start.

Nigel Farage drew the short or the long straw, depending on he view, I

don't know which. Mr Farage. Thank you. It is 40 years since the BBC

debated this great question. The one thing which has remained the same of

course is David Dimbleby. Well, almost. In those days we were asked

to stay part of a Common Market. It was all about trade, if you

remember. Well, it wasn't true. We find ourselves today part of a

political union. We find most of our laws being made somewhere else. We

find it is all rather expensive, and we have open-door immigration. If

you put to a referendum today, would we join that union? Overwhelmingly

we would say no. There is a clear, settled majority of opinion in this

country which says we are not anti-European. We want to trade with

Europe, get on with Europe, but we don't want a part of political

union. There is an obstacle though, and it is here tonight in the form

of Nick Clegg, the career political class and their friends this big

business. They want us to keep this status quo. I want Britain to get up

off its knees. Let's govern ourselves again, stand tall and

trade with the world. APPLAUSE Nick Clegg? Tonight I'm

going to ask you to remember just one thing - if it sounds too good to

be true, then it probably is. You've just heard it from national, you

will hear it from him all evening. He will say we can quit the European

Union, we can isolate ourselves in the world and still protect jobs,

protect trade, still punch point of view our weight. That we can have

all the good things of being in Europe without actually being in

Europe. It is a dangerous con. Because the modern world has

changed. Our economies are intertwined with each other. We have

to work with other countries to protect jobs, to protect trade, to

make sure that Britain is richer, stronger and safer. And for us as a

country to thrive and prosper we should do what we do at our best,

not walk away, but to work with others and lead. Because in an

uncertain world, there is strength in numbers. That is why we should

remain in the European Union. APPLAUSE Right, let's go to our

first question, which comes from Hannah Lippett. For many, staying or

loving the EU is a question of personal principle. What principles

do you base your viewpoints on? Nick Clegg? What's best for Britain,

quite simply. In this modern world where there are so many things that

we can't do on our own, you can't deal with climate change on your

own, or go after criminals cross-borders o or go ar terrorism.

All of that means that we get more out of the world by working together

with other countries. If you do what Nigel Farage recommends and you

isolate Britain, Billy No-Mates Britain, it would be worse, a Billy

no jobs Britain, a Billy no influence Britain. Working together

with others isn't a bad thing. It strengthens us. It doesn't weaken

us. Nigel Farage? Hannah, I spent 20 years in business, I'm not a career

politician. I got involved in this because I realised with a succession

of treaties we were signing up to we were giving away our birth right.

The ability to govern ourselves. I believe the best people to govern

Britain are the British people themselves. Democracy matters.

Generationings before pus fought and died to defend it. I don't want to

be isolated, Nick, far from it. I want us to trade with Europe and

co-operate with Europe. There is nowhere else in the world where you

have to be in political union to be in business with each other. I want

a modern business approach but one that's based on patriotic values.

Let's be an independent United Kingdom. And then I want the rest of

Europe to free themselves from the European Union too.

APPLAUSE OK... He says this is too good to be true. It is not. If you

think about it, the only countries in the European time zone, Ukraine

and Belarus, are the only ones without free trade. When we joined

the Common Market we were living in a world of high manufacturing

tariffs. That's disappeared with globalisation and we find ourselves

incapable of making our own trade deals with the emerging economies of

the world. Trade with Europe. Don't forget they sell suss more than we

sell to them. But it was about the principles not the practicalities.

The values are, how do you in a modern world, where there are so

many threats, challenges and, yes, opportunities, in the modern world,

how do you make sure that we keep ourselves safe, that we keep

ourselves strong, that we have jobs in this country? If you don't want

to believe me or even Nigel Farage, listen to the people today. Who

employ 700,000 of our fellow citizens in the burgeoning British

car industry. They couldn't have been clearer. 92% of them said it

would be crazy to leave the European Union, because by the way these are

the car manufacturers Nigel Farage last week said produce poor cars. We

produce pretty cars and we export to the European Union. He said more

would be unemployed. If you want perhaps the most important value of

all, it is keeping people in work, giving people pay packets, hard cash

in their pockets so they can look after themselves and their own

families. Nick, that KPMG report, what you should have done is read

the small print. I know you are keen on that. It said that 62% of the

people that were surveyed in that British car manufacturing interview

want serious reform within the European Union if they are going to

stay as members. So, far from the top line being true, two thirds of

them are saying unless we get reform, the time has come to leave

the European Union. How do you reform something if you walk away

from it? Time and again national has had the opportunity, as have other

British MEPs to stand up for Britain, to vote for a cut in the

Budget. Tomorrow there is a vote in the European Parliament, am not sure

if Nigel Farage will vote for it, which will eliminate all the roaming

charges that we all face when we go on holiday. Just imagine, no more of

those extortion ate roaming charms when you go on holiday -- charges

when you go on holiday. That is something we could do in Europe but

time and again when he has the opportunity to do it, he doesn't. If

you want to reform something you have to lead within it. Let's not

get bogged down in the detail of 62% here and roaming. I'm sure you will

have the chance to bog yourself down in detail later. I want this

question from Charles Hudson. How can Britain face up to international

challenges like Russian intervention in Crimea without being a member of

the European Union? Nigel Farage? By not becoming a political union with

an expansionist foreign policy, with an aim to myth rises a quickly as

they can. Indeed Baroness Cathy Ashton is pushing hard for a

European Air Force and series of drones. If you look at what's

happened with the Ukraine, we have had a message sent out for ten

years, not just the EU. Indeed David Cameron, Nick Clegg and I'm afraid

Ed Miliband too have all been saying to the Ukraine, why don't you join

the European Union? While you are at it, why don't you join NATO too? And

this is something that has been seen by Putin to be a deeply provocative

act. We've given false hope to those western Ukrainians. Did you see them

with their EU flags and banners? They toppled a democratically

elected leader. Yes I know Ukraine's corrupt. I know it wasn't perfect

but they toppled a leader. I don't want to be part of an emerging

expansionist EU foreign policy. I think its will be a danger to peace.

APPLAUSE Nick Clegg Listening to that it seems to me if I'm the

leader of the party of in, national is the leader of the party of Putin.

It is extraordinary his loathing of the European Union is so all

consuming that he is seeking to justify and defend the actions of a

man, Vladimir Putin. Let 's not... Ukraine is one thing. In Syria, he

is the only on the planet who with one telephone call to President

Assad, the most brutal dictator in the world, can bring the

participants of that awful conflict to the negotiating table. There are

200 people dying in Syria, mowed down in Syria, killed in Syria every

day and Nigel Farage says he admires the way that Vladimir Putin has

played. As if it is a game, the terrible humanitarian catastrophe in

Syria. He admires how Vladimir Putin has behaved there. There is why I

think Nigel Farage's position is indefensible. Nick, you as Deputy

Prime Minister were happy to go and bomb Libya. You did that and

three-and-a-half years on the situation in Libya is worse than it

was. APPLAUSE You were absolutely

hellbent on getting involved militarily in the war in Syria. I

personally am delighted we didn't go to war in Syria and we are not going

to get involved, I hope, in military conflict in the Ukraine. The British

people have had enough of endless foreign military interventions. The

situation in Ukraine, Syria, Libya. These aren't simple plaque and white

issues. Just to assume if you support the rebels you are

supporting the good guys, that flies in the face of history and we should

not be intervening. I don't admire Putin. What I said he had outwitted

and outclassed you all on Syria. I also said I didn't like him as a

human being and I wouldn't want to live in Russia. Let's not meddle...

You did actually say you admire him. The question was which current world

leader due admire? As an operator I would say Putin. I went on to say as

a human being and imprisoning of journalists... Can I address Nick

Clegg's point about Putin could have made one telephone call to Assad and

it would have stopped? Putin had not pointed out that the use of sarin

gas had not necessarily come from the Assad regime. If he hadn't done,

that I did backbench rebels wouldn't have stopped us... You wanted us to

go to war again. I'm pleased your backbenchers voted against you. I

don't like the man but he contributed to that debate.

President Assad denied that defence existed. It transpires he had the

largest stockpile of these am bombable that weapons on the planet.

He said about Putin, the way he played the whole Syria thing,

brilliant. As if it is a game. This isn't some sort of pub bar

discussion. This is a serious issue about how we stop the slaughter, the

displacement of millions people, women and children being sexually

abused. Terrible violence on an unimaginable scale. All that Nigel

Farage can say, all he can say is he has played it brilliantly. This is

an issue where quite rightly we in Britain, because we see this

devastating humanitarian crisis on our television screens, we want to

work with others to do something about it. Nigel Farage doesn't want

to work with the Americans, with the rest of Europe. He only wants to

side with Vladimir Putin, who is the only man with one telephone call who

could bring this bloody conflict to an end. Nick Clegg, can you come

back to the question that Charles asked. In what sense do we have

political weight from being part of the European Union and to what

success in the Ukraine or Syria due point that justifies it? We are part

in the European Union of what is the world's largest economy. 500 million

people, shoppers, who could buy our goods and services. They don't only

buy our goods and services. We export 50% of the things we produce

to the European Union. They only export 8% to us. Crucially they buy

and sell as an economic superpower in this part of the world Ukraine,

from Russia, from the Middle East, from other parts of many countries

in our next of the woods. So we have huge economic clout, which of course

Vladimir Putin, which of course people in the Middle East will

listen to. We don't have that if we were to isolate ourselves and cut

ourselves off from our own European neighbours.

APPLAUSE The whole point of this debate is,

40 years ago it was a Common Market. Now, it is a European Union, they

want an air force, a Navy, and your senior, one of your own senior MEPs

wanted missile strikes to be launched against Syria until you

were beaten in the House of Commons. This country, Nick, has had enough

of getting involved in endless foreign wars. These are dangerous...

Whether it is you or anybody else... These are... Hang on. There is no

evidence that our military intervention in these countries is

making life better. That's not the question. We bombed Libya and it is

worse than it was then. The answer to Charles' question - I don't want

to be part of a Europe European foreign policy. This is a dangerous

fantasy. The idea that there is going to be a European Air force,

Army, it is not true. Oh dear. The problem with Nigel Farage is, they

swing... What can you do? The moon landing was a fake, that Barack

Obama isn't American, that Elvis isn't dead, I wouldn't be surprised

if he didn't tell us that! He claimed last week that 485 million

people were going to vacate the whole of the rest of the European

continent and turn up in Britain leaving no human habitation left to

the rest of Europe. It is as silly as me saying that five million

people living in Scotland might all move to Orpington next Tuesday. It

isn't going to happen. When are you going to start confronting a few

simple truths and stop twisting the facts? You are saying I said 485

million people would come to Britain. I didn't. I said they were

able to. You came up with the most twisted trade figure and last week

you tried to tell the British people that 7% of our national laws emanate

in the European Union. That is true. I thought you believed in the

European project. We know the whole point of the constitution, which you

supported, was to make the European Union an economic and a military

superpower. Now, you deny the fact they are trying to build a European

Air force. It is about time... It is a dangerous fantasy. You keep using

this word "fantasy". I want to explain the truth and the reality

rather than this fantasy world... Oh, dear, dear, dear. Saying that I

only said 485 million people were entitled to move here is like me

saying five million Scottish people... We have to move on. Can I

ask you one point? I want to clarify what you said, if that is the right

way to put it? You said a Democrat in the Ukraine was overthrown

suggesting you weren't on the side of the demonstrations against

Yanukovych. What was your view about the shooting by snipers of the

demonstrators? My whole point is that the situation is deeply

complex. There is no evidence that our intervening will make things

better. It is not our business. We can't make it better. That is the

point. Let's go on. We will move on next to immigration, which is a key

part of course of EU membership, the free movement of people, which means

citizens of member states are free, as they were talking about a moment

ago, to live and work in other EU countries. Kerry Francis? Although I

believe immigration is essential to all European countries' economies,

it needs to be controlled and I'm concerned the UK's infrastructure

can't cope with the current high levels. How would you address that?

Nick Clegg? You are right to make sure, to highlight that we need to

make sure that as people move into this country, and as they move out,

1.5 million people from else have come to our country since 2004. Half

of those have gone back home. There are 1. Million Brits elsewhere in

the European Union. So there are people moving in-and-out. You need

to make sure that the checks we have in place, the infrastructure we have

in place, the support is in place. That is one of the reasons that we

are changing and have changed in this Coalition Government the

benefit rules, so people can't turn up and claim benefits, no questions

asked, no strings attached on the first day. That is why I think we

should reinstate the exit checks that were taken away by previous

governments, so we can count people out just as well as counting people

in. We have to be clear that this is a two-way street and it is really

important to create jobs in this country. One in seven of all

businesses have been established from people who have come from

elsewhere in the world to pay their taxes and to put more into the

coffers Ra they're than to take out. Nigel Farage? Yes, I think the

impact on public services isn't really discussed enough here. It is

interesting. When the Labour Government predicted 13,000 people

extra would come a year from Eastern Europe and Nick Clegg wrote in the

Guardian, "Don't worry, it will be a wee trickle." We saw a migratory

wave come to Britain we could never have predicted. We are still in that

territory. The big increase in net migration last year came almost

solely from the European Union and we have of course in the eurozone

some perilous problems in Spain and Italy and the difficulty is, we

can't plan anything. We don't know how many people are coming, so we

can't plan anything. We have a chronic problem in schools, with the

National Audit Office saying we need to make a quarter of a million new

primary school places immediately and housing - goodness me - we need

to build a house every seven minutes just to cope with immigration into

this country. So we have got huge problems with a population over

which we have no control at all. Of course, Kerry, as ever, it is not

true to say that anyone can come here. People can only come here from

the European Union and stay here and stay here if they want to support

themselves, if they want to work, if they are students. I would say we

need to have level-headed debate. It is a difficult debate, this. A lot

of people are anxious about immigration. Last week, I told you

about the way that the UKIP had said that 29 million Bulgarians and

Romanians might come to this country when there aren't 29 million

Bulgarians and Romanians in those two countries. This leaflet is a

picture of a very unhappy-looking native American. It says, "He used

to ignore immigration. Now he lives on a reservation." The suggestion

being if we ignore immigration, the British people will be couped up on

a reservation. Nigel Farage, by staying in the European Union, we

are not going to be couped up on a native American reservation. What

are you going to say next, you are Crazy Horse or Sitting Bull? I don't

know that leaflet, Nick. It is your leaflet. Do you want to comment,

briefly, on that? I don't recognise that leaflet. I will say this to

you. It is your leaflet. All sorts of things get put out. I wouldn't

endorse its sentiments. It is bad news for ordinary British workers

and families that we have had over the course of the last decade

because of an excess in the labour market - not talking about benefits

- we have had wage compression where wages have gone down by 14% in real

terms since 2007. We have had a doubling of youth unemployment. It

is good for the rich. It's cheaper nannies and cheaper chauffeurs. We

need to have a control on immigration over the numbers coming

here and over the quality of people coming here. I don't want us to

discriminate against India and New Zealand because we have an open door

to Bulgaria and Romania. Let's have an immigration policy based on

quality. You didn't answer the nub of the question by using the

leaflet, which was about the infrastructure, about housing, about

schools, about the NHS. What is your answer to that? Exactly. Kerry is

right. Where a school has more people, more parents applying to

have their children go to the school because of a change in the local

population, central government must and does give more money to those

schools. There are 96% of all people on social housing in this country

are British. 90% of all the new employment created in our country

over the last year have gone to British citizens. All I'm saying is,

yes, this is an important issue. Yes, we should support public

services where there are pressures. Yes, let's make sure that our border

checks work properly. Let's not indulge in dangerous

scaremongering... No housing problem, no schools problem, no NHS

problem in your view? Of course there are. Because of immigration?

There are always problems when you have people. When you have what,

sorry? The idea there will be no problems at all, if you are not part

of the European Union. There are countries on the other side of the

planet where people move from one country to another. You can't wish

away the fact that people have moved from one country to the next. What

you need to make sure is that people play by the rules, they don't

exploit our generosity through benefits, which support public

services and we make sure we create jobs in our country which go to the

many British people who need them. Nigel Farage? I'm sorry, the whole

point is we have no idea how many people are coming here from the

European Union next year, the year after, or the year after that.

Unconditionally, we have an open door to 485 million people and many

of them - and I feel sorry for them because they are living in poor,

former Communist countries and others who took up the ideas of

people like yourself and stupidly joined the euro - they are finding

themselves forced into povR rty. -- poverty. There was a report out this

morning from migration watch that said at current numbers we have to

build a new city the size of Manchester to cope with immigration

over the next four to five years. What I want is us to get back

control of our borders and be selective about who comes here. We

heard it again, more dangerous scaremongering. The population of

Manchester, of Greater Manchester is 2.7 million. It is a nonsense, this

idea that 2.7 million people come from here. Only 1.5 million have

come since 2004, Kerry, half of those have gone back home. Pause a

moment. I said we had two questions. This is the second one from Simon

Lock, which came into our website. "Do you consider the social impact

of unlimited EU immigration to be positive or has it caused a damaging

element of cultural segregation?" Nigel Farage? It is interesting. So

often, the debate is framed in terms of economics. One side claims it is

a net benefit to the economy. The other side claims actually it's

costing us money because we are having to pay for primary school

places. The real impact and the real upset up-and-down this country, the

shock, if you like, is that immigration on this scale has

changed fundamentally the communities, not just of London, but

actually of every city and every market town in this country. It's

happened rapidly over the last few years. It's led to increasing

segregation in our towns and cities, which for a country that has always

had a great record of racial harmony and integration, that is bad news.

Worst of all, what it's done socially, it's left a white

working-class, and yes, I know educationally many have not done as

well as we would like, it's left a white working-class as an

underclass. That I think is a disaster for our society. This does

get down to the nub of it, Simon's question. It is about our, Nigel

Farage and mine, conflicting attitudes towards modern Britain. Of

course, there are problems in some parts of the country where you get a

big change in the local population. On the whole, Nigel Farage says he

basically doesn't like modern Britain. I love the diversity and

the compassion and the outward-facing values of modern

Britain. We should be celebrating that, not denigrating that. Not

turning the clock back on this issue, not turning the clock back as

Nigel Farage has done by saying that people who are gay are not allowed

to get married, not turning the clock back on women's rights - Nigel

Farage has said women are worth far less in the workplace. Not turning

the clock back by saying that climate change is some conspiracy.

Let's go with the grain of what modern Britain is and not turn the

clock back to some 19th Century bygone age that doesn't exist

anymore. Nick, it is the duty of Government to make sure its own

citizens have the best chance for advancement that is possible. I

mention the white working-class. I could of course in London mentioned

the Afro-Caribbean community, 50% of whose youngsters are unemployed. I

understand why big business supports you, you have given us a cheap

labour economy. It has not been good for the people at the bottom of

society. We need to find a way to give people at the bottom of society

and to give our young people jobs and we will not do that with an open

door immigration policy to Southern and Eastern Europe. That is about

putting British people first. It is all very well for Nigel Farage to

pontificate from the sidelines of his taxpayer-funded job in Brussels.

This Government has had to sort out the biggest mess in our economy in a

generation. We have created 1.6 million jobs, 90% of new employment

has gone to British people. We are giving people huge tax cuts by

raising the point at which you start paying income tax. We have expanded

apprenticeships for young people people who need to get into work on

a scale never seen before. What about the argument... That's real

solutions for the world in the way that it is. Not fantasy solutions

for a world that doesn't exist anymore. What about the argument

that the white working-class has been left behind, which Nigel Farage

made? You always have a problem in a fast-moving world, in an economy

that changes. You have a problem where people's skills have no -- are

no longer need. We need to expand training, make sure that people who

do come here speak the language, I agree we must make sure... How are

you going to do that? That would be against European Union rules? You

can't do that. Yes, we do. I would be for a policy... We do not have

that power as members of the European Union. That is the truth of

it. Yes, we do. Nigel, are you done on that? Yes.

Just a word, as we are halfway through, you can join in this debate

by tweeting your thoughts. Use the # Europe debate. Or go to

bbc.co.uk/politics. We come to one of the biggest issues perhaps of the

European Union. We've touched on it, but it is about the economy and the

effect on the economy. Jeremy Nicholson has a question on that. I

work for manufacturing industries who want to remain as part of a

single European market, but their competitiveness is undermined by

costly environment, climate and energy associations. Can the EU

reform itself in these areas without Britain threatening to withdraw?

Nick Clegg? I think it can. As I said earlier, you can only reform

something if you are prepared to put your shoulder into it and lead.

That's why I don't think simply isolating ourselves is going to lead

to reforms. I want more trade, I want less bureaucracy, less red

tape. I've always felt there was just too much red tape, not just

European red tape but national red tape on small companies. That's why

we as a Government negotiated a complete moratorium on new European

red tape being imposed on small apprenticeship companies and indeed

small companies across the European Union. We need to go further. I want

us to complete the big trade talks with America, worth over ?400 for

every individual in this country, worth ?4 billion for British

business. You only have the clout to negotiate on an equal footing with a

big economic superpower like the United States if you are prepared to

be part of an economic superpower on this part of the Atlantic. Hovering

in the mid Atlantic, neither one side or the other, is going to help

business in the end. APPLAUSE The answer is no. I see no

prospect of the European Union changing its environmental policies.

The belief in Brussels that global warming is happening is absolute.

With whether they are right or no is irrelevant. Because what Europe has

done is declared unilateralism. We will unilaterally make sure that

every consumer has expensive electricity and we'll make it as

difficult as possible for our manufacturing industries to survive.

Think about this country. We are responsible for something under 2%

of the world's global CO2 emissions. And right at the very moment when

the Chinese and the Indians have gone for coal on a scale we can't

fathom and are building four new coal-fired power stations every

week, and the Americans have gone for shale gas, meaning their gas and

electricity prices are less than half they are in this country, we've

gone for wind energy, an expensive costs for industry, and we are

losing our manufacturing base for this simple reason. 40% of the cost

of an average factory ask its energy prices. There is no way we can

combat global CO2 emissions without the Indians, the Chinese and

Americans working with us. This act of unilateralism is damaging Britain

industry. The real problem about the way in which energy is priced,

imported into Europe, is our overreliance on oil and gas from

Nigel Farage's friend Vladimir Putin. That's the problem. There are

too many European countries who are only importing oil and gas from

Russia. We have our energy policy set by other people. There's

volatility in the prices. That's why we need closer co-operation between

European countries, the National Grid in this country has estimated

if we build new interconnectors between ourselves and our European

neighbours we could reduce the cost of energy in this country by 13%.

The idea we can be isolated on the one hand and have Europe

overdependent on Russian oil and gas is a solution to our long-term

needs, never mind the needs to deal with climate change, a complete and

dangerous fantasy. It is interest, you didn't tackle wind energy did

you? ? Many of our leading politicians have family member who

are or have been associated with the wind energy industry. If you are a

landowner and you get ?1,000 a day for putting wind turbines on your

land, isn't that great? We've committed ourselves to something

which has made the rich richer, the poor poorer, hasn't helped the

environment and it is putting British industry, aluminium

smelting, steel making, it is leaving our shores and going to

parts of the world that don't abide by the rules. It is bad for Britain.

What steps would you take about climate change if you were outside

the EU? I think that in terms of energy production, Nuclear energy is

the carbon-free way of providing electricity, but it takes a long

time to get nuclear going. I want cheap energy Nick, if the north-west

of England we are sitting on a shale gas field that is huge. If we do

what the Americans have done we can bring down the price of energy by

nearly 50%. I would say let's not look a gift horse in the mouth.

Scrap wind energy, scrap the subsidies, scrap the money for the

rich landowners, let's get fracking in the short term and give industry

and oral people value for money. Nick, I'm going to move on, because

I'm trying to keep an even balance between the two of you and you

slightly have the emin, I was going to say verbosity and I don't mean

that. You've spoken a little more than Mr Farage. Our next question.

What would the effects be on the UK's bargaining position if we were

no longer part of the EU? It is interesting. One of the things

that's been sold from the start is we have to be part of a big club to

have clout, the word that Nick uses, on the world stage in trade. When

the World Trade Organisation meets to discuss global trade, the British

representative is not allowed to speak. And there've been occasions

on which the British representative has been asked to leave the room

while Guatemala and everybody else are allowed to be there. We've given

away our ability to make our own trade deals with the rest the world.

We rely on Australian unelected Dutch bureaucrat, which nobody in

this room could name, who is in charge of the policy for 27

different countries. I think if we did what Switzerland do or Iceland

do, we would be able to negotiate our own trade deals. Those little

countries have done deals with Japan and China which we haven't been able

to do as part of the European Union. With very no influence as part of

the European Union on global trade talks. Natalie, I think it would be

very detrimental indeed to the United Kingdom, to us, if we were to

seek to renegotiate the 50 trade agreements we have by way of our

membership of the European Union. We would have to renegotiate with 27

other countries, 77 countries you would have to renegotiate some but

not all of the trade access we presently enjoy. Unlike Nigel Farage

I used to negotiate some of these trade deals on behalf of British and

European business. It is simply not true to say that British negotiators

are not in the room. That's false. It's the British Parliament that

ratifies these agreements. Crucially, what kind of world do we

think we live in? Nigel Farage thinks we live in a world where we

can cut ourselves off, be isolated, and that we don't gain when working

with other countries by working with India, America, China. These

countries aren't going to take seriously as they take the world's

largest economy, of which we are a member right now. Nick, Iceland has

320... APPLAUSE Iceland has 320,000 people

and she negotiated her own free trade deal with China last year.

Switzerland has more free trade agreements with the world than we do

as part of the European Union. To say that we are not capable of

making our own trade agreements, because we would need lots of them,

show that you frankly don't believe in this country or the ability of

the people of this country to govern themselves. Of course we can make

our own trade policy. To say that we can't, I think is defeatism. No. I

will tell you what I don't believe in. I don't believe in the

dishonest... Are you going to say return to the gold standard or that

WG Grace will be batting again. Oh, dear. Switzerland and Norway from to

pay into the European Union coffers. They have to obey all European Union

laws. Everything gets decided by everybody else in Brussels. They

have to transpose it into law in Oslo. They have no British MEPs, no

Norwegian or Swiss MEPs or commissioners. They have no passport

checks. No power whatsoever. All the rules are made by foreigners.

Powerlessness. That's how perverse the patriotism of Nigel Farage has

become. Nick, you talk about modernity. You are talking about the

membership of the customs union, the only customs union that exists in

the whole world. It's a 19th century concept based on building a club and

protecting yourself against the rest of the world. It is not fit four

purpose in the 21st century. That's why people of real experience of

economics, and from a standpoint of people like Nigel Lawson who say we

have to get rid of this outdated model and move into the world model.

We deserve much better than that. APPLAUSE What do you make of the

argument that Nick put that these countries that have these

relationships appear to be outside the EU but have a trading

relationship have to do what they are told by the EU without a voice

within the EU? Mexico has a deal with the European Union. He was cite

citing Switzerland. Both Norway and Switzerland sell 85% of their

overseas goods to European countries. To maintain free markets

and avoid an argument they pay a subscription. Freedom of movement?

They've voted potentially to end that. If we sell goods to North

America, we have to conform to the standards of North America without

having a direct say over the regulations of North America.

Wherever you trade in the world, if we sold motor cars to America, they

have to be with the steering wheels on the other side. That's the way it

is. But what people who sell products do is adapt. It is called

business. This is a question sent in by e-mail from Australian Turner.

What's the point of having a general election when whoever we vote for

cannot do what they promise even if they want to while we are dictated

to but unelected bureaucrats in Europe? Where is the democracy in

that? Nick Clegg? APPLAUSE

This - Anne lift the lid on a really important issue. Nigel Farage says

we must take power back. I say by being isolated, by cutting ourselves

off, making ourselves less powerful, we'll have less influence over the

world in which we inhabit. The reality is we can't change it. We

live in a world in which climate change crosses borders, in which

criminals cross borders, terrorism crosses borders, in which there are

challenges and opportunities that we deal with better together than if we

are apart. An argument we are now having about whether Scotland should

remain part of the family of nations in the United Kingdom. I believe

that it would be better for Scotland to be part of the family of nations

of the United Kingdom, not because it would rob Scotland of the

identity of Scottish nationhood but because there's so much we can do

together that we can't do apart. Exactly the same lesson applies... I

don't want this to become a debate on the Scottish referendum. Nick

Farage. It is Nigel. Sorry. Anne, great question. Canada lives next

door to America, Japan next door to China. They do massive amounts of

business with each other but they have their own democracies and

rights of self government. General elections have been rendered frankly

fairly impotent affairs because we've given away the control of most

of our country. I was astonished last week there the first of these

debates when Nick Clegg claimed that only 7% of our laws are made in

Brussels. He said it was in the House of Commons library note and

therefore was unequivocal. I've got the note with me Nick and on page

one it says that the British Government estimates that around 50%

of UK legislation comes from Brussels.

APPLAUSE There are other estimates. Coming direct from the European

Commission that over 70% of our laws are made in Brussels. In Germany

they reckon 84% of their national laws are made somewhere else. It is

time we said, let's run our own democracies in Britain, France and

Germany, work and trade together in a European club but not a political

union. Bring back democracy. APPLAUSE

When you say 70% or whatever you are talking about regulations or laws?

Major things or the detail. Maybe I can help. What's is interesting...

This doesn't include EU regulations. It says three things. Firstly, 7%,

not 75%, which was the figure cooked up fictitiously by Nigel Farage. 7%

of primary legislation derives from the European Union. 14% of statutory

instruments, laws but done through secondary legislation. They say it

is difficult to estimate how many non-elective regulations are

produced. No-one says this fictional figure of 75% has any bearing in

reality. Let's have the debate not based on scaremongering, not on

dangerous fantasy or con, but actually on some of the realities

that we have to face as a modern country. Are there no unelected

bureaucrats in Europe? The total size of the European

bureaucracy is about exactly the same size as the number of people

employed by Derbyshire County Council. Some super-state(!) Surely

it is what they do that matters, not the numbers? You are making the

laws. It is this huge super-state that is trampling on our liberties.

7% of our primary law is derived from the European Union. Oh dear.

I'm sorry. I said yes to these debates. I thought you would make

the pro-EU case. By saying 7% of our laws are made in Brussels, you are

lying to the British people about the extent to which we have given

away control of our country and our democracy. I'm shocked and surprised

you would try and do that. APPLAUSE

I don't think in a debate like this, Nigel Farage, you should start

making things up to make a point. You have done rather well at it so

far, Nick! There we are. No. As I say, the House of Commons Library

says 7% of... There it is. Let's not go into this. What are we going to

do? I'm sure our fact finders will be able to say whose side they are

on. They will. Another question, Sheila Campbell? If the British

public are deemed intelligent enough to vote for their own MPs, then

surely they are intelligent enough to decide whether to be part of the

EU or not? The last referendum was 40 years ago. It was on the question

of trade. Not on the federalisation of Europe. Nigel Farage? I couldn't

agree more. What really matters about this debate - and it is great

we are at last debating the issue - what really matters isn't what I

think, or what Nick thinks, what the chairman thinks, or you think. It is

what the British public think and they should be given a free and fair

referendum and the opportunity to express that. The problem is that,

you know, the elite club of career politicians and big businesses don't

want you to have a say. You know why? They think you might give the

wrong answer. They think you might say no, we would rather govern our

own country. The sheer deception of the political class on this issue

really is a wonder to behold. Nick, you yourself have done it. It is

time for a real referendum. That was you in 2008. When you were

challenged on it last week, you said, "Read the smallprint." I have.

It is totally and absolutely clear that a referendum is vital and there

is no get-out clause at all. Nick's turned his back on it. David Cameron

gave us a cast-iron guarantee on the Lisbon Treaty. He turned his back on

it, too. Miliband, I have no idea where he stands. It is about time we

had our say, it really is. Nick Clegg? Sheila, my opinion hasn't

changed over many, many years, including in 2008 when we, as a

country, were asked to give up new powers to the European Union, the

Government of the day said we must do that through something called the

Lisbon Treaty, so when the rules change. I said then - and I believe

now - when the rules change, when powers which belong to you are being

given up to the European Union by a Government, it shouldn't be for that

Government to decide. It should be for YOU to decide. That is where

there should be a referendum every time that happens. We have gone

further in this Government. One of the first things we did in this

Government was to translate that into law so you have a legal

guarantee in law that when there is a treaty, when new powers are being

given up to the European Union, that won't happen over your heads, there

will be a referendum. Nigel Farage and others want a treaty today, or

next Tuesday, or next Wednesday. That would put the economic recovery

at risk. There is a guarantee in law that when the rules change, when new

powers are given up to the European Union, there will, there must and

there will be a referendum. The trouble is, Nick, nobody believes

you. Nobody believes you. And since you have been together in this

Coalition Government, you have given away a vast chunk of control over

the management of our financial services industry, our biggest

employer. You have given encouragement to the formation of a

European External Action Service, and tomorrow when there is a vote in

Brussels in the European Parliament, every directive that gets voted on

adds to the body of law and the power and control of the European

institutions. This isn't about lines in the sand coming every five or ten

or 20 years with a treaty. This is about a genuine anger, an anger

amongst the over 57s, many of whom voted - I'm not suggesting you are

for the moment - anger that they voted as my mum and dad did for a

Common Market that turned out to be something different and the majority

of us - I'm 50 tomorrow, so I'm hardly young - who have never had

the chance to express an opinion. We want to do it now. Nick Clegg, can I

ask you something? We last had a referendum 40 years ago. You have

described everything that has happened since, the Lisbon Treaty.

Why can't there be a referendum on all the things that have happened?

Why wait for even more change? I accept Sheila is not going to be

satisfied with my response if Sheila wants a referendum now. By the way,

people who don't believe there should be a referendum at all are

not going to be satisfied with my response either. I have had the same

view all the time that in a parliamentary democracy you don't

have a referendum every time there is a tweak or change... There was...

In 2008, when that leaflet was issued, we were being asked to

ratify the Lisbon Treaty. That is when you should have a referendum.

If we were to have a referendum right now, or next week, given that

we are at such a delicate stage of our economic recovery, which is so

important, I think that would be put at peril, I'm not prepared to do

that. We have put into law the guarantee there will be a referendum

when the rules change again. Hang on. We have time for one more

question. It's from Clive Hamilton? What will the EU be like in ten

years? What will the EU be like in ten years? Nick Clegg? It will be -

where are you, Clive? There you are. I suspect it will be quite similar

to what it is now. I think if you look at the history of the European

Union, the main achievement, the main achievement has been this

creation of what people call the single market. By the way, a

creation of Margaret Thatcher, Nigel Farage's great heroine. It's created

this huge marketplace of 500 million people who buy our goods, who trade,

completely unhindered by endless rules. That will remain the heart of

the European Union. The fact that over three million, some people

estimate over four million, jobs in our country are linked to our

presence in that huge economy. I think that is incredibly important

to us. That is why the most important reason for us to remain IN

the European Union is jobs, jobs, jobs and that will be case in ten

years' time. Nigel Farage? The good news is the most upbeat point of the

night is that in ten years' time, we won't be members of the European

Union. We will have had our referendum. We will have got our

democracy back. I hope and cross my fingers, particularly for the sake

of those people trapped in that idiotic eurozone in the

Mediterranean, I hope by Britain's example of breaking free of

political union, of showing we can trade and co-operate and be friends

with our neighbours without signing away to the European Commission and

others, our hard-won freedoms and birthright. I hope the rest of

Europe will follow us, too. We live in a Europe of democratic nation

states that trade together. We will not ever go to war together. That

will be a far better way than this trap that so many of those countries

stuck in the eurozone now find themselves in. I want the EU to end.

I want it to end democratically. If it doesn't end democratically, it

will end very unpleasantly. APPLAUSE

Sorry, what do you mean by "very unpleasantly"? We are beginning to

see the rise of worrying political extremism. There is a Neo-Nazi party

in Greece that looks certain to win seats in the European Parliament. We

see very large protests, tens of thousands of people. If you take

away from people their ability through the ballot box to change

their futures, because they have given away control of everything to

somebody else, then they tend to resort to unpleasant means. That is

my big worry. Nigel Farage has been a Euro politician, paid for by you

in Brussels, for 15 years now. I got elected as a Euro MP on the same

day. I have heard the same thing for a decade-and-a-half. Everything is

going to fall to bits. It hasn't happened. There are huge

difficulties in the eurozone. The idea that it is somehow a good thing

for Britain, or a good thing for Europe, to want to see it to fall

apart, to perhaps predict as Nigel Farage has just done, that it will

do so with violence on the streets across Europe, and, at the same

time, to side with Vladimir Putin... I haven't said that. I just think it

is a huge difference in priorities. We should be making the best of our

membership of the European Union, not always seeking to destroy the

things we have achieved together with other countries. Nigel Farage?

I would say this to you. Had we taken your advice, as recently as

2009, and ditched the pound, and joined the euro, we may well find

ourselves in a similar position to one or two of those Mediterranean

countries and you may have a strong conviction and passion for the

European project. When it comes to the euro and immigration, and the e

affect on ordinary people's lives, you have been proved wrong again and

again and again. 15 seconds? My passion is what is right for Britain

in the modern world. I don't think - we are always better when we work

with other countries on issues, climate change - I know Nigel Farage

denies - terrorism, crime, all the things that we can't deal with on

our own in this modern world. I suppose we better draw this to a

close. You each have a minute - I don't know whether you are talked

out - you have a minute for a closing statement. Nigel Farage, you

to go first? This is our country. It is a very good country. It is a

country that developed the principle of parliamentary democracy. It has

been given away through a whole series of lies and deceits and if

the Common Market might have been a good idea 40 years ago, it is

hopelessly out-of-date now. Let's take back control of our country.

Let's control our borders and have a proper immigration policy. Let's

stop giving away ?55 million a day as a membership fee to a club that

we don't need to be a part of. Let's reembrace the big world, the 21st

Century global world. Let's strike trade deals with New Zealand, India,

all of those emerging doing superbly. Let's free ourselves up

and in doing so, let's give an example to the rest of Europe. I

know the people are behind this. I would urge people come and join the

people's army, let's topple the establishment who have led us to

this mess. APPLAUSE

It is time for you to choose. There are people like Nigel Farage whoion

the modern world, want to turn the clock back to a world much more

simple. Britain had the Empire. Women knew their place. People who

were gay were not allowed to get married, where we didn't have to

deal with complicated things like climate change. Then there are those

of us who believe and love modern Britain as it is today.

Compassionate, diverse, outward-facing, who understand that

there are complexities and challenges in the modern world, but

who also understand that by working with other countries, we deal with

those challenges and we make Britain richer, stronger and safer. In

short, real remedies for the way that the world is today. Not

dangerous fantasies about a bygone world that no longer exists and that

is why I'm going to do everything I can to make sure that we remain part

of the European Union because that is how we protect the Britain that

we love. So, that's our hour of debate over

Britain and the EU to a close. A useful debate, I hope. I don't know

whether it made things any clearer. It is interesting to hear the

arguments put this way for and against. For reaction and analysis

to what you have been hearing over the past hour, you can tune in to

the BBC News Channel. For me, it is my thanks - and I will get their

Christian names right - to Nick Clegg and to Nigel Farage, and to

the audience for coming here to the BBC's Radio Theatre and to you who

have watched it at home. I hope you have found it stimulating, enjoyable

and certainly controversial. Good night.