Election 2016: The Wales Leaders' Debate

Official figures suggest GDP was 0.4% from January to March, down

The MP for Bradford, Naz Shah, has been suspended

from the Labour Party pending an investigation.

The move follows comments she made before becoming

an MP on social media, suggesting the state of Israel

The second all-out strike by junior doctors in England has come

to an end, as their dispute with the government over the imposition

Now on BBC News we're crossing to St David's Hall in Cardiff

for a Leaders' Debate on the Welsh Assembly elections.

Polling day is a week tomorrow and this is our last opportunity to

bring together our leading political figures in Wales. Stand-bys and the

BBC Wales leaders debate 2016. Good evening. A warm welcome to St

David's Hall in Cardiff are the BBC Wales leaders debate 2016. And

welcome to viewers right across the UK watching on the BBC News Channel.

This is where we will be spending the next 90 minutes testing the

claims and pledges of political parties in Wales. Tonight we will be

considering some of those key areas controlled by the national assembly,

the things many of you will be voting on next week, the health

service, jobs, education. Joining us tonight we have the leaders parties

in Wales. Here they are. We have Carwyn Jones the Labour, we have

Alice Hooker Stroud for the Green party, Nathan Gilford Ukip, supplied

Cymru we have Leanne Wood, Andrew Arty Davis are the Conservatives and

Kirsty Williams for the Liberal Democrats. Can we give them a warm

welcome. APPLAUSE I'm adding my welcome. Thank you for

joining us. We have a specially selected audience. They reflect

different opinions and are drawn from different parts of oils. They

will be providing most of the questions. Each of the politicians

will have time to answer before we open the debate to involve the

audience. Those of you watching at home listening on the radio can get

involved in the discussion, visit our life page on the BBC Wales

website. We are going to start with an opening statement of up to one

minute, that is the limit, from each of the participants. This is their

opportunity to set out the broad themes of their campaign, their big

vision and ideas, their main appeal to the voters with just over a week

to go. We drew lots to decide the order so it would be fair and the

first is Alice Hooker-Stroud for the Green party. Over to you. To create

a sustainable and fair future in Wales we need Green voices in the

assembly. We will bring new ideas and fresh thinking to our assembly.

We will make sure that we all have access to a warm, affordable home.

We will establish a clean energy economy fit for the future of Wales

and protect our public service is across the country. We will make

sure the Welsh government delivers for us all know matter where we live

or who we are. In Westminster, Scotland, Ireland and the EU elected

Greens have punched well above their weight. With seats in the Welsh

assembly we will punch well above our weight in Wales. On the regional

ballot you can vote for what you believe them. If you believe in a

sustainable and fair future for Wales, if your regional freight to

the Wales Green party. Thank you. APPLAUSE

Thank you for opening business for us. Carmen Jones is next. Tonight in

Wales our NHS staff are at work, going the extra mile, covering

shifts, not just treating people but caring for people to. Tonight in

England thousands of junior doctors are walking home from picket lines

outside hospitals they normally staff. Hospitals that rely on them

and that those junior doctors of working in. If there is a greater

contrast between what Labour is doing in Wales and what the Tories

are doing in England I can't think of one. There are still challenges

facing the Welsh NHS but unlike the Tories and bridegroom Ruth we won't

say to staff you have to work harder to pay for cuts. We already know you

are under pressure. We won't have an expensive reorganisation, we won't

take away decision-making from doctors in the north of Wales and

give it to bureaucrats in Cardiff. The NHS is on the ballot paper in

this election, safe, sustainable health services available when

needed. That's what I'll be striving for and with your support that's

what we'll do. APPLAUSE Think you very much. We are going to

Leanne Wood supplied camera. Across Wales something exciting is

happening. The gap is closing between the party that has been

leading the worst government for 17 years and the party of Wales. The

Tories have been pushed into third place. The election next week is a

two horse race between Plaid Cymru and the party that has dominated

Welsh politics for a century. They have had their chance to turn around

the economy, to end the inequalities in health, education, between Wales

and the rest of the UK. Their time is up. We all know this isn't as

good as it gets country. If you agree with me that it's time for

change, then vote on it. Fight for hope, vote for the most ambitious

programme of government, vote for vision, vote for confidence. We have

ten days to go before you can take the opportunity to back our cancer

contract, our plan for an extra thousand doctors, 5000 nurses, free

social care, the excellence in teaching and our blueprint to turn

around the Welsh economy. Back Plaid Cymru for the change Wales needs.

APPLAUSE We're going to join a thin deal of

Ukip. Next week you have the opportunity to vote. And now you

have the opportunity to put a fresh, new party into the assembly. With

the Root without Ukip we would not be having a referendum on our EU

membership in June. Without Ukip, the policies on immigration would

still be a taboo to talk about. Without us we have already managed

to change things, without actually having people elected here in

Westminster and in the assembly. We have punched well above our weight

as a party. When we get into the assembly we will be able to do that

and be your voice which has been so lacking. You know in your heart that

voting the same old way will not change anything here in Wales. This

is your chance to shake things up, hold the other parties to account,

and be part of a change that Wales deserves. APPLAUSE

Thank you, Nathan. And our next opening statement is from Kirsty

Williams of billable Democrats. Good evening. You've told me you want

smaller class sizes feel children, you want dignified care from our

NHS. You just want the opportunity to get on in life. I've listened and

my party the Welsh double Democrats has listened and our priorities are

your priorities. We'll cut class sizes, we'll put more nurses into

unity. And we will create an opportunity economy that supports

Wales's small businesses and ensures that everyone has a home of their

own. Remember, we would be any party that voted against the unfair

?10,000 pay rise for assembly members because we know it's time to

do things differently. It's time for someone to stand up for people, so

this time, support the Welsh double Democrats and help us deliver a

Wales that will work for you. -- Welsh Liberal Democrats. APPLAUSE

But was Kirsty Williams for the Lib Dems. The final opening statement

for the Conservatives from Andrew. Good evening. It's a real privilege

to be hair and I have a very simple message. We can carry on with

business as usual for the next five years or we can vote next week to

secure real change you commie your family, and your community. We can't

carry on with business as usual, that has seen a lazy Labour

government run thing since the dawn of devolution. If you want to

protect the NHS spending and have real terms increases, if you want

quality jobs with decent take home pay, if you want excellence in

education and security and dignity in old age, then you need to vote

Welsh Conservative next Thursday. Labour are only one vote away from

losing the control of the Senedd. There is everything to vote for next

Thursday and if you want to secure a better, brighter future for you

commie your family, and your community, then you need to vote

Welsh Conservative. Let's vote to make this happen. APPLAUSE

Six opening statements and thank you, you've covered a range of

things already. I think the sensible thing for us to start with health.

It's such a big issue and you referred that some of the headlines

today with junior doctors in England but there are many other issues here

as well. We are going to start with a paediatric consultant. Your

question first of all pleas and then just explain to you, I will take con

side answers. -- concise answers. I will stop with Kirsty and work our

way down, and the next question we will start with Andrew and work our

way round. Your question. What specific steps will you take if you

come into the government to ensure that the pressure on the hospitals

is relieved and the NHS is sustainable for the future? Given

that you are someone with hands-on experience, if you were ask people

in practical terms for some changes what would be at the top of your

list in the NHS in Wales? A waiting times, GP waiting times

would be top of my priorities. When you talk about relieving pressure

you are talking about waiting times in those areas? I am, yes. Thank you

for the question. One of the ways in which we can help reduce pressure in

A is make sure we get our family doctor system right in Wales. Very

often people go to A because that's the any part of the NHS that

is open for them. That's why we want to create an access to GP fund to

allow GP surgeries to employ more staff in the primary care team to

help them see more patients. How much money is in that fund? We want

to start with ?10 million per year. With that make a big difference? It

makes a big difference. We might have a GP who spend an afternoon

doing medicines reviews. If you can employ a clinical pharmacist to do

that he could have an afternoon of seeing patients. Wheels need more

staff. I have been championing more nurses in hospital wards. I

Many people in Wales to not have access to the services they need. We

want to create a parity between physical and mental health so they

are treated equally. More important than that, I want to take politics

out of the NHS. Health is too important. If we are to create a

sustainable NHS for the future, we need to stop arguing, we need to sit

around the table with pressure was like you and the people of Wales, so

we can create a service that is sustainable and can deliver the

first-class health care we all deserve. Thank you.

APPLAUSE There worth three clear ideas there.

We need to protect the NHS budget because they need to know they have

the resources to commit the research. That is what we need for

the next five years, as opposed to the last five years where we started

with devastating cuts. You have to make sure that the resources

available to services can be commissioned. The new move into what

services you need commissions. We would have no wholesale

reorganisation because I don't think the Health Service needs that Comet

did sit like a hole in the head. We have had two organisations already,

and the third time will not be third time lucky. We have got to tackle

the four big killers, dementia,/, cardiac and cancer, to make sure

people are aware of the responsibility they need to take

themselves so we can slowly but surely increase the public health of

Wales. At the moment, it is spiralling out of control. We need

to take the pressure of A departments and we will work with

the health boards to retain staff as well as recruiting. There is a lot

of focus on recruiting staff and rightly so, but retention of staff

across the Health Service in Wales is a huge issue. If you have not got

that resource of dedicated staff up to the show standards, how can

people have treatment? One in seven people are on a waiting list, we

cannot afford to have that in the next five years. Thank you.

APPLAUSE Several points there as well and I

will come back to simpler spending things you said.

Leanne is next. In principle, we believe in a public

Health Service. We want the opportunity to run the Health

Service because we have seen Labour run it down through centralisation.

Don't forget, we have seen Labour politicians protesting outside

hospitals after the centralisation projects. We know that the Tories

will sell it off as they are in England. It is not unusual in some

places in Wales to wait three or four weeks for a GP appointment. A

waiting times have been reported as their worst ever. For me, it is

about the staff. Plaid Cymru want to invest in the recruitment and

training of extra doctors and nurses, but also we want to invest

in the social care system. Ending that historic anomaly where some

care is free and other care has to be pay for. Investment in our staff

is key to bringing down waiting times. Thank you. I'm sure there

will be responses when I come to you. Nathan is next.

We believe strongly in an NHS which is free at the point of delivery,

free for all of us. An NHS that basically fulfils the knee that we

have. I depend on the NHS, I have a condition for which if I did not use

the NHS almost daily, I would be in big trouble. I know that 80% of the

work that is done in the NHS is done by our GPs, yet they get 20% of the

budget. We need to support them. We need to ensure we have enough.

Currently, we only have 136 new GPs coming into circulation, whereas we

need 200 a year being trained up. Just to finish, we completely and

utterly oppose the transatlantic trade partnership which, if it goes

through, we see the privatisation of our NHS, we are the only party that

has posted the way through. The only way you can fully oppose it is by

leaving the U on the 23rd of June. -- leaving the EU.

I am bound to say this. We'll be back here in a few weeks and having

a referendum debate. I promise you that. Let's just focus. I know there

will be references as we go on. I'm not denying it is relevant, but let

us focus precisely on the assembly. Thank you. Focusing precisely on the

assembly's work, I will take a step back. I would also like to stay

clean and further back and say we need to be looking at creating a

healthy society to make sure that people have access to health care

when they need it, not just free at the point of use but across Wales,

in rural areas as well as urban areas, that is important. What we

need to be looking at is the health of our society. For me, that means

looking at things in terms of public health, we need to make sure we have

warm, affordable homes to make sure people do not get ill. We need to

make sure we have secure employment for people so they don't have issues

around anxiety that leads to mental health problems. We need to make

sure we have safe cycling and walking routes around at Unity is

and between schools and where people live so they can have a more active

life. All of these things bring together a picture of the healthy

society in Wales, which is tackling the root cause before going into the

NHS system, before we require that health care. Last point, when we

talk about health care, we need to be careful about the targets that we

are setting. Obviously, on waiting times, we do need to improve them in

Wales, and it is that support we need. It is about giving people

those fair wages, good working conditions, enough support staff and

good training that is ongoing. You made several points. Thank you.

If I may, just for viewers as well, the question was about relieving

pressure, and our colleague the doctor that said it was about

relieving A and GP waiting times. Some of your ministers have been on

the defensive in those areas. What is your message? There are two

messages. We put 42% of our budget, now 46 Z of our budget into the NHS.

We have more GPs per head than England. It is not all about

diverting pressure. We need to make people get the right treatment at

the right time. Let's make sure we continue to get the message across,

for many people, the pharmacist is the first port of call. We will

relieve the pressure from GPs, so people can go to the right places to

get the right treatment. Are you disappointed with the progress you

have made on waiting times, for example question up A is a

challenge in Wales, we have a challenge in Wales. It is important

that we are able to take pressure off A A demand has gone up

every year. You cannot beat those challenges by pouring money into it.

You need to make sure that people don't go to A in the first place.

Many people who go to A are elderly. We have introduced a care

fund that helps people get the care they need at home so they don't get

into an acute situation where they have to go into A That is taking

pressure off doctors, and that is important. We will come to comments

in a second. Back to the question. You have heard six responses there.

Rather different responses. What could you pick out some thing that

you consider to be relevant and helpful, and something that is less

relevant and less helpful. That is a tricky one. The Plaid Cymru made a

point that was closer to my heart, but also the Labour Party has the

experience. It is still not working, it needs to go further. What would

you do to relieve waiting times in A? What can be done? Is it

investing more is the system simpler not working? There has to be a

systematic change. The problems that need dealing with outside A should

be dealt with outside A They should be more selective slots made

available so they don't have to go to A Thank you. Concise comments.

First of all, the gentleman in the glasses and the ball over there. I

will then be on this side. In 2000 nine, we had a

reorganisation of the health boards. -- in 2009. The smallest of those is

now in special measures. What good has that done? This last week, I

went to my GP, you referred me for an x-ray. The same afternoon, I had

the x-ray in a hospital which is fit for the 19th-century rather than the

21st, and I thought it was an excellent service. I was then told

that the x-ray would be returned in three or four weeks. What are they

doing? That is an issue of management. Who will tackle the

management of the Health Service? Is the management issue in that area as

well? They presumably changed it to improve the management but it does

not work. Thank you. I would like to ask a question and selling the

treatment of cancer patients in Wales. At the moment, Aneurin Bevan,

will be hanging his head in shame at the way that cancer patient I giving

treatment in Wales. We are lagging behind England. There are drug

treatment you can have across the border that you cannot have in this

country. There are people in bed right now, who are ill, and would be

better off if they were in England. When I voted for devolution, which I

was proud to do so, I did not expect to have second-rate health care in

this country. It is not on. It needs addressing. What will you do to sort

this out? Thank you. APPLAUSE

Over the years, we have had lots of people to come forward to talk about

the availability of drugs and whether there should be a cancer

drugs fund is one of the big issues. What is your direct answer? You will

get cancer treatment more quickly in Wales. All of the figures show that.

You get more access more quickly when they have been approved. We

know that you will be seen in target when it comes to... The cancer drugs

fund in England has come to an end because it did not work. It did

work! Cancer is important and it I know full well in my own family that

it is aged killer. There are the life threatening conditions will

stop when those treatments are improved, it ends the lottery. The

cancer drugs fund has worked in England will stop it was only

time-limited. They are putting forward new proposals. Patients have

gone from Wales to England to get a postcode get those treatments, as

the lady identified. It is a tough nut to crack. One in three will have

an episode of cancer, going down to one into. We have champion for the

last five years that we want a treatment plan. We want all aspects

from the diagnostics all the way through to the availability,

guaranteeing that over the five years. You cannot brush it under the

carpet. You haven't made the improvements. Onto Kirsty.

You are absolutely right, and it is not just drugs that are unavailable.

We have had to fight to the nail to establish a health technology fund

so that cancer patients can have the radiotherapy techniques which are

commonplace in England but patients in Wales were not getting. There are

cancer surgical techniques that are not being delivered in Wales. I know

of the family that were left to beg for their young son, 36 years old, a

father of two, to get the cancer operation he needed. It should not

come down to who shouts the loudest, it is a right for every patients.

The organisation does not fix things, it takes manager's 's eyes

of services. Andrew says he does not want a

reorganisation, but he want a politician in charge of each health

board. We don't need every organisation. But we don't need more

politicians. Really support Labour cutting the budget in the last

assembly? We need less politics in the Welsh NHS, not more.

I want the response to that but given that we've talking about

reorganisation you want... We recognise that the health service as

it is is not working. There needs to be a much closer relationship

between health service and the social care services. All the

parties agree that health and social services need to be integrated but

Plaid Cymru is the only party with a concrete plan to do exactly that. I

would like to answer the question that was put about cancer

specifically. I met just the week before last fan Williams who has had

to move to England for treatment cancer. It's an absolute scandal

that patients in Wales do not get the same level of treatment as

patients in other parts the UK. There are big resource issues. Thou

ra but it is a question of priorities. The First Minister is in

complete denial about this being a problem. Every time we question him

in the assembly he is in denial. There is a postcode lottery for

drugs in Wales. He doesn't want to end that, we do. In the of Wembley

Plaid Cymru have voted against... And supported Labour budgets that

have cut the NHS budget in Wales. The Cancer Drugs Fund was put

forward by the Tories is exactly the same one as the English Cancer Drugs

Fund. Our drugs fund looks at red treatments of other diseases as

well. You're not comparing like-for-like. Let's Hang on a

second... First Minister, you've been accused

of being in denial. I am going to take a few more questions on health

as long as you promise to become sites. I've just explained how to

end the postcode artery. Two points were raised. I sat in the assembly

for five years, Andrew watched our budget being kept by tempers and by

his own party and said nothing about it. Nothing to defend Wales. I take

with a huge pinch of salt what he is saying now about cutting budgets. I

have to say to Leanne, she says she wants to take over the government to

run health but she would just handed over to a giant quango. You are

misrepresenting our position. I don't think that's the way forward.

I would rather pay money on patients. We want the health

minister to be responsible for help. We want the government... Stop being

in denial. APPLAUSE It's the democratic responsibility

you have abdicated. Where would it be based? What do you mean, it's the

NHS, it would be all over Wales. APPLAUSE

We would have protected the NHS budget, it was our commitment in

2011. They took a conscious political decision to cut health

spending. That's a political decision they tick. They've been in

control the 70 nears and waiting have doubled. APPLAUSE

I'm going to take a few more comments on health and then I'm

going to move on to the economy. I want the young gentleman at the back

with his hand up right there... And I want the gentleman with the beard.

Right at the back lady with glasses. And the gentleman with the very

distinguished white paper. Keep it con side. The original question was

about sustainability and spending on temporary staff in the NHS. How is

that sustainable and how can we move towards putting more staff into the

NHS on a full-time basis rather than temporarily? Next. If Andrew RT

Davies one and became our First Minister would he raised the money

for the NHS by imposing contracts on our valuable doctors and workers?

No. He's just said no. Leanne said and also Carwyn about having funding

cut but what about the money we spend on free prescriptions to

people who may not necessarily need them? APPLAUSE

Thank you for making the point. You use health and education like a

political football. We don't put these people -- we put these people

in the assembly to give us a good NHS, why can't they work together

and provide a service that is fit for purpose? APPLAUSE

Thank you. I'm apologising because I think you realise we could do 90

minutes on health easily but we've got lots of other big things to talk

about. Where is Neil Woodcock? I know you are a steel worker. Thank

you for coming along tonight. Clearly your industry has been right

up there in the headlines not just in Wales and the UK but

international. What is your question. On a personal note, I'm

sad to see the panel have stopped wearing their save our steel badges.

Obviously I'm obviously not as close to their heart as it is to mind.

With that in mind what do the panel proposed to do to save the Welsh

steel industry and to help the 750 workers losing their jobs this

month? What can we do. We really are battling against the clock. Andrew,

a focused answer please to that question. It's vital that two

governments work together to secure the safety and security of the

plants. We don't have a fire sale that end up seeing some of them

shot. There is a great future for Welsh steel and UK steel. It is

heartening to see the level of in gauge meant that is going on, the

government stake that was committed last week of 25% plus loans being

made available to successful commercial purchasers. It's got to

come with a package that makes sure we have protection for the steel

industry to grow and anti-dumping measures put in place. Business

rates are tackled as well and the solid work being done on high energy

prices continued to make sure the steel industry stays competitive.

You did touch on the seven and 50 jobs that have been lost already

irrespective of the closure that has been announced, it is vital we work

to create a more dynamic economy in Wales. At the moment we have the

lowest take-home pay in Wales, we've got to get small business rates

ordered so businesses can grow and create quality jobs, we need to

create training opportunities, and above all after 17 years of Labour

neglect of the economy we've got to create an economy that makes money

for the people. APPLAUSE Can I extend my sympathy to yourself

and your work colleagues who are going through a really difficult

time at the moment. I have some understanding of how difficult that

is because my father was made redundant during the miners strike.

He wasn't directly implied but it just goes to show how it has a much

wider ripple effect. Many other businesses in the supply chain will

be affected as well. It makes no sense to us to import steel from

other countries to use in the infrastructure projects that this

country needs. The green energy projects, they all require steel. We

need to be using Welsh made steel in those infrastructure projects. Plaid

Cymru has been calling for governments at both ends of the M4

to be working together to do everything possible to save the

industry, to consider all options including taking an equity stake or

part nationalisation in the industry. I'm encouraged that both

governments are prepared to consider looking at that. We were calling for

this back in January, we did lose significant time in that period. But

it is important now that everybody works together and pulls together

and to do what we can to save this industry. If they could bail out the

banks they should be able to bail out our steel industry. APPLAUSE

Nathan. I'm glad to hear that Leanne is going to be voting to leave the

EU on the 23rd of June. Quite frankly the reality is this is a

world market, we do not control the tariffs on cheap dumped Chinese

steel. That has been given away since 1975. You are talking about

Welsh steel being used in projects all over Britain and Wales, that's

against EU law, against procurement law. You cannot do that. Let's be

honest about it. How can you say save steel, fatally. We'll lower the

tariffs on energy, will make steel is we can sell it on the world

market... Nathan knew on the referendum trail again. -- Nathan,

you are on the referendum trail again. It's not about the ownership

of Tata Steel. It's about selling the steel on the world markets.

Let's be honest. I'm going to directly disagree because I think it

really is about the ownership. For me the problem with Tata Steel is

that they have absolutely no reason why they should care about the

workforces and the communities. Their bottom line is always to do

with a profit for their shareholders. When the market is so

fixed they will pick up and leave and we have seen they are willing to

do that. Potentially looking at nationalisation as a stopgap measure

or potentially a final result in the way our government can support the

steel industry because yes it is necessary for our renewable

technologies and infrastructure. Potentially there are other models

of ownership. In your community you could own that plant, you could be

in charge of what your job is. The sustainability of that job relies on

the fact that we can create renewable energy economy in Wales

and we can use that steel. You can have ownership over that and there

is a huge opportunity in Wales to build up renewable infrastructure

and create many more jobs across our country. APPLAUSE

What are you going to do, to save these jobs in the coming weeks and

months if you're still in power? I grew up a few miles down the road

from the steel works and I can't imagine Port Talbot without its

steelworks. It's horrific and something I will fight hard to make

sure doesn't happen. The second part of your question is what about the

750 workers. We don't know how many of those will be retired or

voluntary redundancy. We have put in an enterprise initiative to attract

more enterprise into the area. One needs to be done. Firstly taking the

pension liability out of the way, the government have indicated they

will do that. We need to make sure energy prices drop because our

energy prices are higher than Germany and Spain. We can't expect

to produce goods if our energy prices are that high. We've been

telling the UK Government for this past five years. The reality is that

Germany and Spain have lower energy prices. We need to deal with that.

Wasn't it the EU that voted against having tariffs, it was the UK

Government, the UK called the problem not the EU. APPLAUSE

The EU wanted to support the steel industry. The UK Government need to

change their minds on this. For me this is about saving jobs. It's not

about point-scoring. I'll work with the Tories on this because I know

that saving jobs is more important. Let's make sure we stop building

that infrastructure to make sure that our steel has a market, not

just in the UK but in Europe as well. APPLAUSE

I recently went to the plant in Port Tolbert to meet with the management

and the union. What's really important to say is that there is a

bright future for the blast furnaces. It can be turned into a

profitable business once again and we can produce steel here. And we

need to because it's a very foolish government that would not save its

own steel industry. We need to produce R.N. Food, we need to

produce our own energy and we need to produce our rain steel in a very

uncertain world in which we live. 750 jobs have already gone and

should there be a successful sale, and I hope there is, there's no

guarantee there won't be more job losses to follow. What could we do?

When the Newport steel plant went we created an economic regeneration

company to help the businesses in that area to develop to take on

those people. We could take business rates of plant and machinery. That

would help Tata Steel but also help other manufacturers across Wales to

create jobs in that sector. We need to build things in our

country. Use that steel to build products that we can sell to the

rest of the world. I must say, Nathan Gill, personally voted

against anti-dumping measures in 2014. It is all very well to come

here and talk about leaving the European Union. You are in the

parliament, you had a chance, you voted against and even dumping

measures. Shame on you! APPLAUSE

Shame on you for not doing the research properly will stop was not

an MEP, so I did not vote on it. Let's just be clear on this. They

are all in Lala land, and that is the reality. If you cannot sell your

steel... Why are you suddenly bothered about saving steel two or

three weeks before an election. What about the other eight major steel

refineries in Wales that you allowed to closed. Name three. Why are you

and all of the rest... Comments. Concise, if we can. The gentleman

here in the centre of the main body here. Then the gentleman here right

at the front. And then the gentleman there, or the glasses. I'm looking

for... Has got to be a woman who was to take part as well. We will start

here. The former First Minister suggested making an enterprise sewn

of Port Talbot. He tried to make and aerospace enterprise zone, and it

has been an abject failure. It created about six new permanent jobs

since it was invoked. By saying it is a waste of money and time? Where

next? At the front, yes. Any member of that panel that who supports the

continued European Union member ship cannot be honest about wanting to

save our steel industry, that is a fact. Thank you. The gentle and back

there. Just making the point of political opportunism, it is not

about politics here. They're just jumping on the bandwagon. Tony Benn,

in 1978, he posed by far the's steelworks. Labour haven't got an

unblemished record on this. What are you saying on steel? What is the

answer? Nothing is to do with politics. Carwyn Jones keeps

shifting the blame. Thank you. You just said that he wanted parties to

work together, Conservative and Labour. Yesterday, your own leader

in England, arrived in Paul Tolbert. He did not tell the First Minister.

He only heard about it on twitter. Is that right? I did invite him to

come, but it is not fair -- but it is fair to say that I did not know

about it. During question time, he said he could not guarantee the

future of the steelworks unless all the parties work together, but he

did not meet with the First Minister. Thank you. Where is Ian

Williams? That is you're getting to bite at

this! That is a bit of a cheat. Some of you mentioned this already. Your

question. I'm concerned that out of the structure and transport links

are letting us down. What would you do to make sure that Wales has the

interest charge it needs to drive growth in the economy? On this one,

I really do want you to speak for about 30 seconds of advice we will

have no time for any further questions. Some of you have touched

on if structure already. We want to build a national of the structure

commission to have a plan for the whole of Wales, to make sure that

spending is more even throughout the country. We want to stop the billion

pound M4 project and to deal with the punt gesturing, we want to go

for the blue route option that will free up millions of pounds to spend

on in the structure in other parts of the country. It is very uneven,

the way that every structure money is spent at the moment. We want to

equalise that to make sure that all parts of Wales benefit from spending

from the worst government. Thank you. It is fair to say that lots of

the reporting on this has focused on Newport on the M4, which is

important. In North Wales, there are issues of Edinburgh structure. What

do you say question I'm glad that Leanne agrees with us that the blue

Route is better to go for. Why are going to spend ?1 billion on

structural funding in the South for me have huge problems in the North.

Lots of you that I will know how horrendous some routes will be. The

A470, where all of the passing lanes? It is easier and quicker to

go into England and down and across than throughout beautiful country.

So what is the answer and how much you spend on it? ?600 million is

what we will have two spent on this and other if the church rejects, not

just in the South. Your leaders said that immigration was this possible

for congestion on the M4. It is pretty obvious, if you have got

people coming into the country, as many as the size of Cardiff and

Swansea together, they are adults who need cars and will use cars. It

is obvious that out of the structure will not be able to cope. Thank you.

If you adding millions of Vectra cars on the roads every year we will

have infrastructure and traffic. And issue a building roads for that, how

on earth are we going to manage? Alice. We need to establish a fund

for every structure. We have a lot of money invested to pension funds

in a public authorities, in local authorities and the wider public

sector. At the moment, the money is invested in fossil fuel companies

across the world, which we could take out and use for our fun for

every structure in Wales. In Scotland, the whole figure is

probably much larger than that. We could divest that can free invested

in Wales, in its structure here would stop in our homes and energy

in structure. There is a lot of money that we could be using it to

build a better, more sustainable future for Wales. Leanne sedge

wanted to build a commission, I want to build transport neck works. From

my point of view, if you look at the M4, the problem with the blue Route

is that it goes past hundreds of houses, it will affect many people.

It is not the easy option that people think. We have had the

investment in tunnels. There have been bypasses built, and we need to

make sure we deal with those. We need to see a timetable for the

selected the cage and of the rail lines. -- electrification of the

rail lines. Wait a second, I must let Kirsty and Andrew and then you

can speak. If we are to have a transport infrastructure for the

whole of Wales, you don't blow the budget on one road in one section of

Wales. We have to look at the fair distribution of resources. We also

need to look at transport solutions both here in the South and East and

also the Aberystwyth to Carmarthen line. We want to re-regular, use new

powers we have two Reeva Kay-Taylor services so people in broad areas

are not left stranded. There is a new type of infrastructure that we

need to deliver on, and that is our digital input structure. People can

not work at home, cannot develop businesses in other parts of Wales

as they have two move into big cities.

Thank you. Government has got to get on with the job. After 17 years of

Labour in control, they have squandered opportunities. At the

close of the last assembly, that a bar called which sold off public

land which lost income. That is scandalous was that we cannot afford

another five years of that. We have got to get the digital economy right

because they could not compete in the 20th century economy, let alone

the 21st-century economy. We need to make sure that the electrification

of the rail routes is completed, and we need to make sure that it happens

in the next funding round. That is why it will be so important to have

a governorate in Cardiff Bay that can work at the Westminster

government to deliver these projects will stop enough excuses, action is

required. Time for a view on this. Infrastructure. Think about

transport ever structure, can be broadband and things like that as

well. The judgment at the back first, then the gentleman at the

front here. Thank you. I am looking for... Too many guys wanting to

speak. I want some ladies as well. At the back first. Thank you. In

England, there is a Green bus fund for buses to be using different

methods of fuel. Action is required, as you said. When will the

Westminster governorate this site to investing Wales so bus operators can

operate more Green buses for people to travel around Wales? Commute

along to the middle there? What will you do to make it easier for those

people with disabilities to travel on the bus. It can be so stressful,

just stepping out of your front door, let alone getting on the bus.

Where was the other one, sorry? The judgment here. You have to pay a

toll at the Severn Bridge. When will you cancel that? That is a very

practical point. What are the prospects of the Severn Bridge toll

disappearing codger muck we have asked to control it, if we can

control it, we will at least reduce it and then abolish it. As things

stand at the moment, the tolls will be set by the Department of

Transport and the money will be spent in England. We want a share of

that. The question that access to public transport. Kirsty made the

point, we will have the power to control buses. It is a border that

the linkup with trains, not arriving five Slater, to make the whole

experience the travel far less stressful. On a personal level,

waiting for connections at Swansea station is not my favourite

activity! I hope the point has been noted. Thank you for that. I should

underline that our colleagues here, representing their own parties, they

are not the only parties standing in this election. What we will do now,

for a couple of minutes, so we are representing all of the voices,

we're going to hear some contributions from the other parties

were standing and getting their messages.

We believe that the assembly government, after 17 years of

continuous failure, should be abolished. At the cost of ?1.5

million a day, to keep 60 70 murders in the Senate is too expensive. It

is time that we close down the assembly and the 72 satellite

offices that the front. The steel crisis underlines the need for us to

have a Welsh government in Parliament with the powers and

resources necessary in order to take vital industries into public

ownership, defying EU rules if necessary and investing in what we

need. More railway links, or homes, high-speed broadband to every school

and local community and harnessing the enormous potential of our solar

and tidal power in Wales. We are standing across Wales to represent

the loonies in the Welsh assembly elections in 2016. It is a border to

reduce costs. To do so, we will reduce the number of seats in the

assembly from 60 two five. We're not your average political loonies. We

don't think we are a hive mentality. We all use our own minds and we can

guarantee that, should we win, we will not implement any of our

manifesto policies. LAUGHTER

Follow that! I have got to say, that winds the

prize of the century award. I'm disappointed that none of my

colleagues here, in the fashion stakes, you cannot compete.

We just thought we would put that in at this point so we were reflecting

other reviews as well not just the six parties with us now. We are

going to move on to education. We've got about half are now left. Such an

important issue and I've lost count of the number of interviews I've

done on education standards, the challenges that education, not just

schools but universities to. It's been such a hot topic. We'll have a

question first and then some comments. How would you support the

teachers and schools to deliver a first class education system for

Wales? We're going to concentrate on school 's first and then move on to

higher education. Where are we on this one? Nathan first. One size

doesn't fit all. I've got five children and I'm fully aware of

this. What we need is an education system that is bespoke to children

and their individual needs. We needed to be aspirational for the

child. We want children to be able, when they get into their classes, to

being gauged because they are enjoying learning and they feel it

has a relevance to their future. Not everybody is cut out to go to

university. We need people to work in industry, in manufacturing,

hands-on skills. We propose bringing back grammar schools to Wales but

not as these people will have you believe 11 plus, that's it you're

categorised, but throughout the second area education period of

their lives they can continue to be tested and decide whether or not

they want to be more vocational or more academic. APPLAUSE

I'm just looking at some of the policy areas, one of the

eye-catching policies I noticed was the possibility of raising the

school starting age, maybe you can address that in your response. It

was just opting the age at which children start formal education. We

believe that education should be just about finding a career,

shouldn't just be about getting on a treadmill. It should be about

inspiring children, it should be about making it fun to learn things,

to gain knowledge, and to really inspire them to want to learn more.

It is a recognition that there is lots of research that recognises

that education focused on player earlier in life is very good at

bringing that wealth of knowledge and your children very early on. I

think in terms of addressing the question put forward, how do we

support teachers and schools to deliver a first class education

system in Wales. I think the first thing we need to do is focus on the

children and those teachers. To be able to deliver a good education

system that those children, we need to support those teachers. We also

need to make sure there are still schools in our communities for the

children to attend. There are plenty of schools around Wales that are

closing and those schools are actually at the heart of those

communities. Once the school closes that unity fall apart. Regardless of

debates about numbers or what is viable, you think they should be

kept as units. We need to protect our rural schools. They are

important to those communities. Bringing it into supporting our

teachers, when teachers went on strike last week in Wales they were

not going on strike because they wanted higher pay or different

pensions. They were going on strike because they didn't feel they could

deliver for the children and because they felt one of the new pressures

being put on children in rural areas are additionally long bus journeys

to school because of rural school. What we would do is keep those

schools open, make sure we reduce our teacher workload, make sure we

provide effective professional training for teachers throughout

their careers and aim to reduce class sizes. These are all things

teachers need to be able to provide a good education for our children in

Wales. APPLAUSE You made quite a few points. Can I

ask you to respond, I picked up a quote from the Chief Inspector of

education and training in Wales "Once again this year there is a

marked contrast between the quality of teaching and learning

particularly in our best education providers and in the weakest. This

is not due prowler Malika to socioeconomic factors, some of our

best providers are in relatively deprived areas, the implication

being that this is about standards. And monitoring standards regardless

of socioeconomic factors. It is about leadership. When there is weak

leadership the school doesn't function. But I would like to do

over the next five years, once we've got teachers paying conditions

devolved, start on an overall package the teachers. The Scots do

this and we need to make sure we do this in Wales. I am the son of two

teachers. They talk to me about teaching and teaching as a

profession. Also we need to make sure teachers are teaching in

buildings that are fit for purpose. One of the measures for me in the

education system is making sure the richest areas and the poorer areas,

there is no difference between them. We provided money and support for

our worst performing schools to bring them up to where they should

be and we've seen startling results across the whole of Wales. That is

hugely important. Also important, where children get the opportunity

for a good education, they are also able to carry on in FP college and

university. I've spoken to students in the past few weeks and they are

petrified at the idea their funding might be cut... Let's stick with

schools for the moment. Leadership is absolutely crucial which is why

it is scandalous that Labour's education minister admitted the

government had taken their eye off the ball when it came to education.

We have listened to parents concerns which is why we will cut class

sizes, that teachers have the time to teach every child to the best of

their ability. Over the last five years my party has prioritised in

everybody's negotiation education spending. That's why we were able to

invest in an additional ?280 million into the education of our poorest

Georgian buyer the pupil premium. -- poorest children. Every child

deserves a fair start in life and if we are to make our economy is

successful we need well qualified children leaving our schools. If a

teacher has got 30, 32, 33 children in their class, it is nigh on

impossible for the teacher to give those children the individual

attention they need. APPLAUSE The target class size is what? Down

to 25 starting with infants first. It is the political leadership and

lack of political leadership that has put us where we are. It was

Kirsty 's education minister who apologised, it was the First

Minister who said they had taken their eye off the ball. What we've

got to do with education in my view and my party's Cuba's fund schools

to Rex is the opportunity to spend as much about money as possible in

the classroom. Make sure that schools Day open, offer them the

opportunity to run their own affairs so they know what is best for their

community. If a local schools shots, part of that community dies. Making

sure there is parity to support students with vocational and

academic coursework. Alternately we need people with vocational

qualifications as well as academic qualifications of we are going to

have an economy fit the 21st-century and doesn't leave our students

behind. APPLAUSE In international comparisons Welsh

schoolchildren perform worse than children in countries like Estonia,

Vietnam's, Ireland. I think that's a scandal considering how well we used

to perform in the past. For me, staff are the key to this. We rely

upon our teachers to create the next generation of doctors, engineers,

scientists. So we must invest in them and encourage them and enable

them to be excellent. Plaid Cymru will create a cradle to career

education service and we have identified a number of policies to

do that. One, investment in early years education. Two, we want to

create a world-class teaching profession and reward them

accordingly. Thirdly, we want to guarantee a job or a training place

everyone under 25 and has been out of work for more than four months.

Create more apprenticeship places and a debt write-off scheme for

graduates. APPLAUSE Any teachers? I've heard from you

once. I'll come to this lady first. Pupils are funded via a pupil

deprivation grant. It's right that they should be. The pupils that are

getting free school meals should be funded. But the grant doesn't take

any account the tall of the working poor. What do the panel think about

the funding? What would your proposal be? I think there is such a

great variation across the counties in Wales which is paid to the

unfair. There is a lack of consistency. Absolutely, the way it

is calculated is a mystery. Any other teachers? Yes,? I would like

to address the Ukip gentleman and say that it would be wonderful to

put to bed the idea of grammar schools. APPLAUSE

It saps the litany ridiculous, children are judged at the age of 11

-- it's absolutely ridiculous. It means that boys and girls are judged

equally. If you know anything about child's development you know that at

the age of 11 boys are behind girls. Therefore all of the figures have to

be mass arched in order to create the results of a 50-50 split. I'm

sorry but its simple maths and simple knowledge of children. We

would have entrance exams at 11, 12, 13, 15 and 16. Children are always

being tested and examined, always. Why are we behind Estonia? It

doesn't work. You've been doing it for 17 years and it hasn't worked.

APPLAUSE In England where they still have

grammar schools, they are the ones that parents want their children to

go to. People are voting with their feet. Is there a case for saying

that we've got a plan where all schools to come academies?

Originally that was a Labour idea. Is that a model that would apply to

Wales? It is suitable for England but our model is about offering the

opportunity physical is to be funded directly from the Welsh government.

At the moment 81% is delegated out of County Hall. In England the

averages 90%. That would free up ?150 million. The criteria would be

the school would have to be able to teach a national curriculum. If it

could meet that requirement, the school could go to the Welsh

government, apply via a business plan and the governors, the parents

and the pupils would have a stake in that school. But his community

participation and education and ending Labour's decline of 17 years.

APPLAUSE I'm interested in why you think the

academies model wouldn't be suitable in Wales, what is it about the

academies model? You bring solutions to the table that right for Wales.

For my money I believe that offering the money direct to schools so you

are not forcing schools to go down that route actually gives you the

balance in the education system that is appropriate for Wales. One in ten

kids leave primary school unable to read in Wales, that is Labour's

legacy. You really going to give them another five-year? APPLAUSE

Direct funding of schools is the beginning of the academisation

process. The experience in England is that it hasn't led to increased

spending in the classroom. It has led to a boom of business managers

who handle these budgets and it has led to lots more civil servants in

the Department for Education. The reason why people in England want to

stop the academisation programmes as it is a direct threat to schools. We

need to introduce a law to have a presumption against closure, that is

the way you protect schools. If you direct funding you make it difficult

to keep them open. The local authority cannot afford provisions

of special educational needs either. APPLAUSE

90% of the education budget is delegated straight to the school in

England, in Wales it is 81%. There is 9% last administration. That is

school transport and special educational needs.

It is all very well and good giving money directed to schools, but there

are transport costs and catering contracts as well. This week and

last week, why are you going to get rid of the education maintenance

allowance that allows so many people from poorer backgrounds to go to

college? That the moment, there is no support for post-16 education.

Thank you. We are fighting the clock. Where is our next question

ask a question muck you have the last question. What changes would

you make to the support available for students to study at university?

You were a student where? In Coventry. And you are studying?

Geography. I'm about to go into my final year. What is your thought

about support. What could be changed? I am very lucky that I have

had a lot of support with tuition and living costs, but there needs to

be more focus on the living costs and support for that because some of

the means tested loans and grants to not cover some people's

accommodation. There needs to be more focus on that. Where are we

starting? Alice. What we propose in Wales is to look at the tuition

fees, we offer a free education for Welsh students who study in Wales

because we do believe that education should be free for whole of life.

Anyone who wants to learn should have the ability to do so. We don't

have the ability to fund people who study in England, so we will have

that available for students who will study in Wales and those whose

courses are not available in Wales. I agree, it is not just about the

tuition fees, it is about the funding of living costs as well. We

need to look at what the living costs are, where people are going to

study, and taking it from that perspective in terms of what their

needs are and take into consideration the needs because we

are currently not doing that. You will never pay ?9,000 a year in

fees. We will look after her students, as we have done for the

last five years. The Lib Dems broke a promise, saying they would never

charge students for their fees. That will always be the case for us as a

party because we believe it is important to invest in education.

Another thing we will never do is say to students, either you study in

Wales we come back in five years or we will fine you and make you pay

for your studies. We believe young people deserve opportunities where

ever they go, whether they work and whether the saddle. -- where ever

the saddle. -- settle. A lot of universities are saying that your

policies are not sustainable and you are sticking to these for reasons

they do not understand. Let them compete for Welsh students and say,

come to Wales because we have a better offer of for you in terms of

education. There is the challenge, let them write about. Is that a

level playing field? Of course it is. We want our students to get

experience outside of Wales, we want some to come home, obviously, and

some will, they will bring the experience with them. It is a board

that we don't say, you can only study in Wales, even if you courses

not available in Wales. All we will charge you. That will never happen.

The First Minister is consistently misrepresenting Plaid Cymru's

position on this. You know that our position is not that. Explain it to

us. I will explain it to you. We're not interned. -- in turn. I listened

very carefully to what the First Minister said that. He said students

won't pay ?9,000 in tuition fees under Labour. We did not give a

figure of exactly how much they've would pay. They have been careful

not to state a figure. Who invented tuition fees? It was Labour. Plaid

Cymru's policy is that we will pay off ?6,000 out of the ?9,000 for

every year a student comes back to work in Wales and pays into the

Welsh tax part because, at the moment, we are investing in

students' education and they are leaving and we are inadvertently

funding universities in other countries when Welsh universities

need that money. There are plenty of students coming from England to

provide funds for the universities in Wales. You are effectively saying

you will charge people who come back to Wales. Where are the jobs for

them to come back to? You are happy to continue with the situation where

Welsh taxpayers' money is being spent on English universities and

Welsh qualified students are leaving and have no way of coming back and

contributing to our economy here? We need the best brains in this country

to help us build this country up. It is a wide world out there. I want as

tuners that the best experience possible. Want to come back, ... The

last time Plaid Cymru were in government, they did not do a good

job of providing quality jobs for people to come back to. Where is

your evidence? You have had four years of economic portfolio. It was

your party! The critical point about tuition fees, and I did not go to

university so I did not have a free education, I went out and worked on

the streets of Cardiff, selling produce from the farm. What we have

got to do his help with living costs so people can get into university.

My body has brought forward passes that will put ?400 billion into

living costs over the five years, which will pay from the wild. --

will be paid from day one. Further education colleges have been robbed

to pay for higher education establishments. That is a

significant area of debate, the allocation of resources. The truth

is, nobler to party has a great record on Jewish and fees. They were

introduced by Labour, they were raised when Plaid Cymru was in

power, and my party paid the biggest price for not being able to keep its

promise in London on Jewish and fees. That is why it is crucial for

my party that we have learned these lessons. -- Jewish and fees.

We will give all students a grant to help the cost of living. We will

ring-fence the rest of their higher education budget so we will be

giving money to out this edition is in Wales. We need great Welsh

universities, and they are being starved of resources at the moment.

What Labour have done is said up the commission that conveniently will

report after the election, and the First Minister says he will respond

to that. It is the oldest trick in the book. Learn the lessons of my

party, be upfront, be straight and be sure that you can afford what you

are promising. I have learned that lesson the hard way. That is why we

will spend money on supporting students with ?2500 but you also

need to invest that in is situations. If we will be doing our

higher education service a disservice and you cannot do both.

Nagin. -- Nathan. I don't think you have learned from promising to do

things you cannot do. You said you will reduce class sizes. We do not

know how me people will be arriving from week to week. We will provide

free science, technology, English mathematics and medicine tuition. We

will replace the grant with a loan for those who go to England and

learn. Will you allow for students to come to Wales? I had plenty of

friends who are Chinese and from all over the world. Please do try and

paint us as being racist. For students watching, what happens to

Jewish and fees under the Ukip Lassie? To be clear. If you study

one of the STEM subjects, you will not have to pay. If you study in

England, you have to repay that through a loan system. We will

provide a bursary for those students who want to study anywhere in the

world. Thank you. Some comments. The far corner, there is a young lady

there. What will you say? There is a lot of mention of cutting tuition

fees and taking a budget of the Jewish and feed that students need

to pay act. This is messy for undergraduate fees. Will you be

offering support for students who want to study postgraduate Masters

fees? In the front here, a young chap here. This is more the step

back to secondary education, the LGBT committee is one of the most

disconnected against. Do you think you need to change policies to grab

that? Right at the back. Carwyn Jones always mentioned Welsh

students, he does not mention the other students who can come to Wales

and be subsidised by the Welsh government. If you come from any

country in the common market, 31 countries, any of their students can

come to this country and have the same grant that Welsh Juden scat.

That includes Turkey, Norway and Switzerland. It costs the Welsh

economy many mill is about. As a parent of a child on the

autistic spectrum, I know that costs for children, and as they go into

further education, increase, because of the support they need. What

funding will you give to children with additional learning needs?

Thank you so much for those points. We will not be able to have an

answer. The gentleman in the glasses. The whole debate feels that

it is from a different generation, we talking about past education and

pass on the structure. We will look to set a vision for the future, not

argue these same debates over and over. Thank you. Very good. Thank

you for mining is that we are ahead. Our time is up and out of is at an

end. Thanks to our politicians and the audience here. There will be a

special programme on BBC Two Wales, starting now. And a phone in BBC

Radio Wales. You can also continue to have your say on social media,

the hash tag is #BBCWalesDebate. A full list of candidates is available

on the BBC website. From Cardiff, thank you for watching. Enjoy the

rest of the campaign. Have a very good night.

APPLAUSE Good evening. Another chilly day

across-the-board with some sunshine and heavy, wintry showers. They will

rumble on in the next few hours in the East of England before fading

away. Someone showers coming into the