EU Referendum - Scotland Decides

Now on BBC News, EU Referendum - Scotland Decides.

Hello, good evening and welcome to a BBC Scotland special debate on the

EU referendum. Debating before our audience here in Glasgow this

evening, leading in and out campaigners. For tabby cats leave,

the former Conservative Scottish Secretary Lord Forsyth. For Remain,

the Justice and Home Secretary Representative. For Leave the former

Scottish National Party deputy leader. And for Remain, the leader

of the Scottish Labour Party kid, Kasia Dugdale.

So, our panellists will be taking questions from the audience, which

includes committed Leave and Remain supporters in equal numbers and some

undecided voters as well. Let's go straight to our first question,

which comes from Fraser Knox. Good evening, panel. How large a

shop with the Brexit Biju Age UK economy? -- shock -- would be Brexit

Biju a UK economy? It would be very serious and we would see the results

as the markets open on Friday. I'm not here to stay you, I want to make

a positive case for why we are better off in the European Union.

It's good to create jobs to sustain the economy we have and create

opportunities for young people. There's no question it has been good

for workers' rights. We can now make sure we don't compete with our

neighbours on holiday lead and the amount of money we earn in a day and

maternity and paternity rights and that's because we are part of the EU

and I hope it continues. Lord Forsyth. I don't like the word shock

and there could be some short-term uncertainty. Broadly I'm with Lord

Rose who is the leader of the Remain campaign in the view that it

wouldn't make much difference and matters would settle down after a

period of time. Despite the scaremongering that's been going on,

if you look at the markets today the pound is broadly where it was before

the referendum was announced and the markets... The stock market went up

this morning. I didn't think that was the way to look at it anyway.

What we're talking about here is whether or not we restored to our

parliamentary democracy the ability to take decisions and I believe in

Britain and I believe that given the opportunity to decide our own

destiny we will prosper in the long-term and that's how we should

look at it. George Osborne has produced Treasury

analysis which he says would cost 43,000 Scottish jobs within two

years of a Brexit. He has talked of having to have an emergency budget

to plug a ?30 million black hole in UK finances. Do you buy those

figures? I think Scotland are a bit sick of this campaigning.

Scaremongering and raising fears. What is true is that membership of

the EU has brought significant benefits to the Scottish and British

economies. For example, investment of regions and Nations in the UK,

Scotland sees the most from the EU, to the tune of ?16 billion per

annum. Our exports to the EU are worth ?2000 per head of everybody in

this country, and they support over 3000 jobs. The chancellor is on the

same side of the debate as you on this occasion. When he says that

43,000 Scottish jobs would go within two years, I use saying he is

scaremongering or do you think those figures are accurate? At the moment,

we are part of a free market we have access to 500 million other

consumers, that has brought massive benefits to the Scottish economy. If

we withdraw from that free market, we will have no more access to

trading with that free market which will of course have an impact on

jobs and investment. 43,002 years? I am not willing or able to put a

figure on it. But if we withdraw on the free market, it will affect jobs

and investments. There will be an agreement reached between the EU and

UK out of the EU, and I'll tell you why. It is because of trade figures.

The European 27 export to us about ?290 billion worth of goods and

services per year. We export to them about 228,000 a year. It is in the

interests of both sides. You would think trade was only one way, the

way they had put it. But with access to that market for the UK, there are

lots of jobs tied up in the EU about access to the market. Plus the fact,

if we vote Brexit on Saturday, we do not leave the European Union on

Friday. The UK has to write a formal letter to the commission saying that

we wish to withdraw. That is under article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty.

They then have to be negotiations over a two year period where we are

still members of the EU in that market. If you think of those

figures and the millions of jobs on both sides, common sense will

prevail. There will be a free trade agreement. Common sense tells you

that will be the case. The shock will not have come. Bringing in our

audience, and perhaps when it comes back to the question on this. Mr

Knox, what do you think. I think we need to vote to leave and take back

control. I think the EU proved itself to be a broken down the

institution. I think it is best we leave on our own terms and negotiate

those with the EU rather than facing ages -- ages orderly exit. Do you

think that shock will be something we have to absorb or do you think

there is scaremongering going on? I think there will be a short-term

period of market volatility and turbulence, but once the markets get

their heads around the FAQ we will be leaving, the markets will

quickly recover. And this gentleman? How can you be so certain? What

happens if other countries rebel against us because we have left is

green countries are not going to rebel. But there could be countries

that rebel against us because we have left. You can't be 100% sure,

it's does not... I'm not saying we would be 100% sure. What I am saying

is that if you look at the facts on the ground of trade and the jobs

involved in Europe, coming to us, and our job is going to them, common

sense will prevail. It would be lunacy on their part to put trade

barriers up against us, because we could put them against them, and

that serves nobody 's purpose. I am assuming that all the hysteria from

Angela Merkel and company will die down. There is no way the German

trade unions, whose members are reliant on selling to Al market,

would allow a European politician to act in a stupid way in reference to

a free trade agreement between us and the EU. I cannot guarantee 100%

that the politicians will come to their senses, but the facts on the

ground indicate that they will. Jim is right that there would probably

be some sort of an agreement, what it is the terms of that that matter.

Think of what the Norwegian Prime Minister told us last week. She said

if the British leave the EU, they wouldn't like it, because in order

to have free trade with the EU, Norway have to agree to passport was

ordered checks in the Schengen area and to the free movement of people.

The Norwegian Prime Minister described herself as being like a

lobbying organisation in Brussels. -- passport-less border checks. She

described it as such. The difficulty is that we don't know what the terms

of the agreement would be. Those who want to leave the EU often cite

migration and the free movement of workers as the main reason they want

to leave. Outside of that, if you want to leave the EU, you would have

to agree to the free movement of workers as Switzerland have had to

do. You are shaking your head at that? There are many countries who

have free trade with the EU who don't have free movement. Such as

Turkey all Lichtenstein. We are the fifth largest economy in the world.

They sell ?62 billion worth of product to us. Anybody who thinks

that with the German and French elections coming up, if we vote to

leave, Angela Merkel's office is not going to be filled with Fox wagon

and other manufacturers saying, we sell millions of cars to Britain

every year, please make sure this trade is maintained. It is simple

scaremongering. You don't need to be in the EU to sell goods and services

to Europe. America does that -- Volkswagon. Those countries not in

the EU have been far better at increasing their exports than we

have as members of. I want to hear some more from our audience. Our

economy is the fifth-largest in the world, but that weighs heavily on

trade. The has said it could fall as much as 10%. How will the impact

trade? If it fell in value, that would help our exporters and

enormously. It would make imports more expensive, making it easy for

our own organisations and businesses to thrive and prosper. The single

market... The use of the word market is misleading. It is a single

regulatory zone. Anybody can sell to the single market, the Chinese,

Indians and others do so. Tariffs will be applied. Sorry, I want to

hear from the audience. I am still undecided, but this is my dilemma.

Do the leave campaigners think that economic certainty is worth

sacrificing our sovereignty for? I think we benefit from having workers

rights, the opportunities that our young people get from being a part

of Europe. But talking about these questions, look at what some of the

business leaders and the Scottish whiskey industry are saying. Hang on

a second, the microphone... The economy is based on people who

generate the wealth. Scottish businesses have said that it is

hugely important to be part of the UK and the EU, because they can

trade with 28 nations with one set of regulations, and it is also an

amazing platform for Scottish whiskey to get to China and America.

That platform of being part of Europe is hugely advantageous to

trade both with Europe and beyond Europe. Yes, we have to see the

sovereignty, but I don't think we should be afraid of it if it means

we are stronger and better of overall. We have a question from

Adam. Financing the fishery and culture are sectors, will that be

the same if we leave the EU? There is no reason why not. Before we

entered the EU, we had deficiency payments to our farmers. I would

very much doubt if any government of any particular ideology would starve

our agricultural sector. And on fishing, the final scene from the

SNP point of view, since 1973, would be that we would get rid of the

common fisheries policy. Whether it was conducted from Westminster or

Holyrood, as one professor at Glasgow University says, that will

benefit Scottish fisheries. Why do you think the ANF you in Scotland

has come out against a Brexit? It's chief executive argued that overall

benefits of staying in outweigh advantages that businesses would get

from leaving the EU? I am not sure, there are some farmers voting for

leave who would prefer the deficiency payment system that we

operated previously. You get people... There are no figures that

would clinch the argument in either way. The common fisheries policy on

does the argument that you share sovereignty in the EU. He did not

share sovereignty in the EU. The transfer sovereignty to the central

institution of the EU. The common fisheries policy is a classic

example of that transfer. The common agricultural policy has brought

significant benefits to Scotland. If vital funding to farmers and land

owners to find vulnerable areas. It also provides significant funding to

lots of community and environmental activities. Why have the NFU said

that they want to come out against this? They said 40% of the EU budget

is spent on the common agricultural policy. Significant subsidies come

to Scotland and they have said nobody will tell them what is going

to replace those subsidies. That is why... George users of State farming

who is campaigning on the leeside says that farmers would get as much

support or perhaps even more as they get now. That is his view, it is not

detailed. He can say what he likes, but that doesn't involve any detail.

When the Scottish government was asking people to vote for

independence, they had detailed proposals. There has been nothing of

the sort this time. What about the official Leave campaign? It is

nothing to do with George Eustace. Farming and fishing policy will be

the responsibility of the Scottish Parliament. Actually... It is a huge

transfer of power to Scotland. The Scottish Parliament can decide what

happens to our fishermen and farmers. I have got a ?10 note. Who

will give me ?20 for it? That is the deal in Europe. We pay them 20

billion, we get ten back. And we are told how to spend it. You talk to

any farmer in Scotland today and ask them how it has been this year,

filling in the forms and the disaster of paying the money. That

money then gets sent back to us in ways that they determine. I want a

Scottish Parliament to be able to decide these matters and a fishing

and agricultural policy... I just want to pick up with you, this

business of how much money would come to the farmers. The vote leave

battle suggests that the money we might save if we left the EU in

contributions would be more likely directed to the NHS? You can't spend

it twice. This isn't a general election. It's not about winning or

losing, it's about informing the public on the issues and at the end

of the day we will get money back, we will get ?10 billion back. How it

is spent is a matter for the elected government in Westminster for the

Westminster government and in Scotland with agriculture and

fishing and education and other powers that will come back to

Scotland, it will be a matter for the first Minister and the Scottish

Parliament to decide. Let me finish the point. That's how it should be.

At the moment 60% of our laws and regulations are made by unelected

commissioners to whom are accountable to no one and you can't

get them out. Janet? On those powers, fishing and farming has been

devolved since 1998 but negotiating with other countries over common

fisheries policy is an common agricultural policies aren't

devolved. They are the preserve of Westminster. Is with the Scottish

government now. Have you read the Scottish government act? Yes. It's

clear that negotiating is a national matter. You were going to return

power to Britain last year. Jim has talked about making trade agreements

with other countries, we have to replace what we have with something

else. Very briefly, though. Mark Forsyth has said Scottish government

will have more power. The economic levers of power remain at

Westminster. If the British government is going to have more

money as a result of leaving the EU... If it will have more money.

You don't accept it will? I said if, who's to say it will give any of

that money to the Scottish government to replace the subsidies

that we currently get for our fishermen and farmers. I want to

bring in the audience. I think we have a farmer. Andrew Wilson?

Andrew, let's come to you first of all. A question for both sides. Make

it as a point to contribute to the debate. It's a well-known fact that

there's been turmoil for two years with farmers. There's been various

campaigns to the government but there is yet to be any support from

a UK government based. What makes you think that if we exit Europe

they would support farmers because they have a chance to do so now.

This is the hour but there's nothing to see. You've yet to make up your

mind and decide which way to vote on Thursday as I understand it. How big

a concern is this for you in that decision? It is colossal so it is.

It's not just farmers, it's the whole rural economy that benefits

from it. What do you want the government to do? What I'm saying is

we are still waiting on subsidy payments that were June last year.

If they can't deliver that, how can they deliver a whole common

agricultural policy within the UK Christian green they are going to

deliver a common agricultural policy from Europe, you've just explained

that. If they can't do that then how are they going to deliver... We

understand it is sitting at the door of the UK government so how are they

going to deliver their own policy? Let me bring in a voice from the

side of the room with the gentleman with the glasses. I must confess,

this is the second time I have heard Michael Forsyth bring up this phrase

unelected bureaucrats. Does the term pot, kettle and black spring to

mind? And there were some hands up on this side of the room. The great

virtue of our system on your point, which is a dig at me because I'm a

member of the House of Lords, which is accountable to the House of

Commons, the great virtue of our system is you were able to kick me

out in 1997 when you didn't agree with our policy is. That is what is

at stake here. I want to hear more from the audience. -- policies. This

lady here. You say about the common agricultural policy but it doesn't

work for Scotland to the point where it could impact the Barley

production for the whiskey trade that was talked up so well by Kesia.

Can we bring in Kezia Dugdale? Let's hear from Kezia Dugdale. There's

something else that Michael Forsyth said that we can't let go by and

that is the sense that 60% of our laws come from Europe, that's just

not true. Only 13% of our laws even reference the European Union let

alone enforce laws made in Europe upon us. It's another one of these

scaremongering stories that you accused us of at the start of the

programme. The farming concerns are very real, likewise in the fishing

industry. I have friends and family in Peterhead where this is real, it

is about livelihoods and it's very serious. We asked the Scottish

fishermen is Federation what they thought about Europe and they say

they are neutral and they say the fisheries policy doesn't work for

them and they don't want to lose the free trade across Europe and they

don't know what's in their best interests. It's really difficult.

There might not be easy answers here. Think about this, do you

genuinely believe that a Tory government wants to give more

subsidy, more public money to you as a farmer? Do you believe they want

to give more money to the NHS? The Tories believe in smaller state

intervention and government, they aren't out going to help you get

from one week to the next. They insist on smaller government. We

will hear from Mark Forsyth later. One more question from Sarah Long.

Sarah. I was wondering how would remaining in the U or leaving would

affect controlling the high levels of immigration we are experiencing

at the moment -- you? Michael Forsyth. -- EU. I agree with Jeremy

Corbyn who said on the Andrew Marr programme on Sunday that while we

are in the EU it will be impossible for us to control levels of

immigration. I think that is very important. I think we do need to

have migrants coming to our country but we need to be able to control

the numbers so we can match the services for the schools, health

service, housing, congestion on our roads and all the other things we

have to live with in our country. There are many countries which are

not in the European Union. In fact most countries in the world aren't

in the European Union but most countries I can think of think it's

important to control our borders, and who we can throw out. Because of

the European Court we find ourselves with serious criminals here who we

cannot expel. That's a good example of how we've lost control of our

ability to run our own affairs and by leaving the European Union we can

have an immigration policy which meets our needs and brings the

skills we need to Scotland and the UK as a whole. And also an

immigration policy which is fair to those people who want to come here

from non-EU countries, people from India, Pakistan, South Africa,

Australia and so on. So we welcome people who can make a real

contribution to our economy and not turn people side who can make a huge

contribution to the health service and other services because we are

stuck with controlling numbers coming from the EU. In terms of net

migration of EU citizens to the UK according to the office of national

statistics, in the year ending June 2015 around 180,000 came to the UK

-- Office for National Statistics. Obviously a smaller proportion for

Scotland. Yesterday in the interview Lord Forsyth referred to on the

Andrew Marr programme with Kezia Dugdale, Jeremy Corbyn asked if

there was an upper limit to immigration coming into the country

and he said you can't have one while you have a free movement of labour.

Do you agree? I think we should say that we recognise people choosing to

live and make their lives in Scotland is a good thing, it's added

a tremendous amount to our society to be culturally diverse and to have

a mix of ethnicities and we should recognise that. Those figures are

right, 180,000 people, a small percentage of our population. If you

listen to the Leave campaign, we've all seen that horrific poster Nigel

Fry unveiled this week, every migrant you would think came to this

country and they got a house and were on benefits and took from us.

They are being blamed and they are being told they are the fault of

everything wrong in our society -- Nigel Friars. The question I asked

you was about what Jeremy Corbyn said on the programme yesterday, can

there be a limit? -- Nigel Farage. He was clear that was an aspect of

the current situation in the EU. That's a fact? That's right. We need

to understand that immigration in the UK is more broader than the EU.

The questions that we are being asked is about what type of country

we want to be, what kind of society we want to be. One represented by

Nigel Farage who tries to label immigrants as forever taking from

last? 5% of EU immigrants claim benefits in our country. -- from us.

If you listen to the Leave campaign you would think it is 95%. You're

more likely to be treated by by an immigrant in the NHS than sitting

next to one. If you think there's not enough GPs, not enough council

houses for young people, problems with school placements, blame the

Tories who have spent the last five years cutting public services. Don't

blame immigrants who have just invested in it. I want to bring in

our other panellists in a moment but as Kezia Dugdale mentioned the

Tories I want to bring you back in, Michael Forsyth. That poster that

Kezia Dugdale referred to with the column of people seeking refuge in

the EU with the banner on it, breaking point, what did you think

of it? I think it was a particularly stupid poster because it confused to

things, which is refugees and economic migrants. -- two things. I

would like to see us do more on refugees, that means being able to

control the numbers coming into our country, which we need to do if we

leave the European Union. For example, there is the most appalling

persecution going on in Syria and elsewhere of Christians. I've been

trying to persuade the government to declare this as genocide, which

would mean we could intervene directly to help those people. I

thought it was a silly poster but quite frankly, if this campaign is

reduced to during about posters that Nigel Farage has got when what is at

stake here is our democratic future then something has gone badly wrong

with our campaign -- arguing. Let's go to the audience before we go back

to the panellists. In the back row, The Lady in the Van will. There's a

lot being said about immigration -- the lady in the middle. But

immigration actually works both ways. There are 2.2 million Brits

who are working, living and retired abroad. And I would like to know

what's going to happen to them. If we come out of the EU do they all

have to come back? What kind of future is therefore all of these

people? I will pick up on that and your answer to the broader question,

Jim? Normally about 40,000 Norwegians actually living in Spain

I think. I don't think they will be greatly affected one way or the

other to tell you the truth. On immigration, let me make it

perfectly clear, on the Leave side, people have different reasons for

wanting to leave. We are not all Nigel Farages, let me tell you!

APPLAUSE And I think if the Leave side loses

on Thursday then he will be primarily responsible for the

disgraceful way he has conducted the argument on immigration.

We need a rational, sensible, adult discussion. Not so much a debate but

a discussion about immigration. Of course, numbers of people coming

into our country create a problem. The problem isn't culture or

stealing someone's job, it's being able to plan. When I was on a

hospital board many years ago we needed the registrar general's

figures in order to allocate to different areas of the medical

services. At one time we had children being born at a fair rate

so obviously we got those figures, we could give more money to the

maternity services in Glasgow which combined with the birthrate also was

a problem because homebirths really were quite dangerous, that was

before the slum clearance took place. So we've got to be able to

say there are three categories of migrant. There is the asylum seeker

who we should welcome all the time without dispute. The other two

categories are short-term economic migrants, which I have been

incidentally, when I couldn't get work in Scotland I went to Saudi

Arabia. So there's economic short-term migrants. And the third?

This is quite important because we've had lots of stuff about this.

But we are also pressed for time. The other section are people who

want to come and live here. And Scotland could do with many more

people from all over the world coming to live here because our

population was declining until we got the immigration principally from

eastern Europe, and it's now rising. A rising population is good for

everyone, more prosperous and you have a bigger home market. Let's

have an adult, sensible discussion. 3.3%... 3.3% of those in Scotland at

the moment are EU Nationals, a further 2.1% are from outside the

EU, that's the proportion of the overall population.

There is a reason that leaving the EU would reduce our numbers and

ability to take in migrants fleeing, and there is a reason that we should

not have reasonable migration policy. We have a skills gap that

needs to be filled by immigrants. We have many families being sent home,

such as at the moment a family from Australia. Only 5% of the population

from the UK comes from the EU. Various studies of the last couple

of years have shown that migrants from the EU take a net contribution

to the British economy. They are paying more by the way of taxes and

benefits. I think we need to challenge the myth that what is

creating pressure on our public services is EU migrants. What is

creating pressure is the failure of this Conservative government to

properly invest in public services, particularly the NHS and affordable

housing. APPLAUSE I need to come back on

this. We are not in charge of the amount of money that we get to spend

on the NHS. As you said yourself, it is dependent on the formula. Do not

blame the Scottish government for the economic failure of the Tory

government. Why should people in Scotland have to pay more than to

people in England to have decent public services? We're almost at the

end of our time. Let me hear the lady on the side and then this

gentleman. To pick up the family question, I was appalled when

Michael Gove suggested that if we left the EU, Scotland would be able

to sort out its own immigration issues. Talking about families from

outside the EU, why should we believe that? It is disingenuous. On

the basis of what we experienced post- referendum, I wouldn't believe

a word they say. Thank you for that. Joanna, I agree that there is a

skills gap in Scotland, but with the EU, you can't control what comes out

and in. Surely it makes more sense to have a system where you can

prioritise the skills you have mentioned? We need a sensible

migration policy, that is what we don't have. Thank you for your

contributions, we need to move on to another topic. Our next question

comes from Jamie McEwan. Would it be better to be an independent Scotland

with the EU, all part of the UK within the EU? An independent

Scotland within the EU? Other options are available, it depends

what happens in the referendum. If there is a Brexit in Scotland votes

to stay in, what happens? I don't think you should have to pick

between two unions. I want to remain both part of the UK and within the

EU. If we are in a situation on Friday where we have voted as a

United Kingdom to leave the EU, then I think the arguments for staying

part of the UK become even stronger. We will just set ourselves a task of

leaving our second biggest trading partner. So much we have discussed

tonight was linked with that. The Labour Party's position is simply

that we oppose a second referendum on independence over the next five

years, simply because we respect democracy. We were told it was a

once-in-a-lifetime... It has to be respected. I am obliged to remind

you that in an interview in February, you contemplated that in

these circumstances it wasn't inconceivable. That she might back

an independent Scotland? Yes, and I think everyone expects me to be

thoughtful and reflective about that. I thought in Scotland we were

in a position to have a more nuanced conversation about the Constitution.

But we are still divided between yes and no, black and white. I believe

that Scotland's future best lies within the UK, and I think

especially if we were to leave the EU which I hope that we don't, that

relationship becomes even more important and I will be even more

drawn to remain in in the UK if we leave the EU. We are on the same

side tonight, which is very pleasant but we were on different sides

during the independence referendum. If you took any interest, you will

recall that we were repeatedly told by Better Together that the only way

to continue Scotland's membership of the EU was to vote no and stay in

the UK. In the event that the UK votes to leave the EU in Scotland

votes to remain in the EU, then the circumstances in which people voted

to remain in the UK in 2014 will have changed significantly. The SNP

said that they felt the Scottish Parliament should be entitled to

hold another referendum if there was a material and significant change in

the circumstances that occurred in 2014. Alex Salmond says that would

happen in two years, what do you think? I think there would be a

ground swell for support of a second referendum, if Scotland is taken out

of the EU against her will. I have a say on what people have said on

their doorsteps, discussing the issue. People are concerned that

after being told that the only way to remain in the EU in 2040 was to

vote no, but now they are being forced out. I want to see Scotland

as an independent member state in the EU. But I also want to see the

UK remain in the EU. I think that is in the interests of the whole of the

UK economy. The SNP has been trying to run a positive campaign to

remain. That is pure... I have read the manifesto and I have also read

these words in the Sunday Herald from Nicola Sturgeon. If Scotland

does face being taken out of Europe against our will, then the options

set out in our manifesto must be on the table for consideration. A very

slippery one. The SNP does not have the mandate to hold a second

independence referendum. The same position in 2016 as Alex Salmond was

in 2007, a minority government. But with this difference, Alex Salmond

at least ask for a mandate. Nicola Sturgeon had the option to add this

option, and I ask you for a mandate in order to hold a second

referendum. She doesn't have the mandate. And that power, legal

power, to grant a referendum, is at Westminster. The only way you can

leverage that out of Westminster is having a majority combined with a

mandate. You then have the moral authority to say whether people

wanted. The next time that the SNP might get a majority and might ask

for a mandate is 2021. To then pretends to the yes voters that we

would be on our way to a second referendum... . I have the greatest

respect for Jim, but he is simply wrong. Google the SNP manifesto and

page 24, and you will see the pages I have set out for you. The SNP

reserved 46.5% of the vote. That is the highest mandate that any

government has in western Europe. Furthermore... Stock. You have

already had a say. I am confused about the SNP's position, because of

the argument is, and polls suggest that if England votes to leave and

Scotland votes to remain, then we should have another referendum. The

simple message to anyone who wants to keep the EU is that you should

vote to leave in Scotland otherwise it will be used to make the case for

another referendum. The polls show that the majority of people in

Scotland do not want to have another referendum. Either way, if on Friday

people vote to remain in the EU, which I am opposed to, I will accept

the result, because they am a democrat. I think it's a disgrace

the SNP continue to damage Scotland's interest by dragging out

this idea that we could leave the UK. If we were to leave the UK with

the oil price where it is, we would be boss. And the EU won't have you

because you wouldn't be able to make the debt criteria. I want to knock

this idea on the head that we would be bust. The United Kingdom has a

deficit of 76 billion, despite six years of austerity. We are part...

You brought it up, so I am finishing off the point. It is a disingenuous

argument. Most countries in Europe have a deficit, an independent

Scotland would have a small deficit, the UK has a deficit of 76 billion.

Hearing from some of our audience, the gentleman in the front row? Your

entire eight campaign for the Scottish Referendum was everything

will stay the same, which is why you wanted the EU exit as a result. But

if we are out of the EU, you've lost one of your status quo option. You

will now be asking people to leave the UK and hope to join the EU if we

are out. This will not help you win, but I don't think people are going

to want to join this thing called the EU. Every citizen of Scotland

has a continuing rights to be a citizen of the EU. There are many

small and newly independent nations joining the EU. It is simply

ridiculous to think that an independent Scotland would not be

welcome in the EU. Would you have the pound or the euro? We would need

to look at it at the time, I can't make that decision right now. We

would need to look at the economic conditions at the time, we would

probably not want to be tied to the pound. In 2014 and in a letter to

the Scottish Parliament from the Vice President of the EU, they told

us that the day you are independent, you are out. There is no reason to

believe that they wouldn't tell us the same thing next time, if the UK

remains... Opinion says that Scotland would have a right to

remain a member. We must leave it there because we are out of time.

Thank you very much indeed to the four on our panel and to our

audience. That's all we've got time for, voting is