EU Referendum: The Great Debate

Good evening. APPLAUSE

Good evening and welcome to Wembley and the great debate, voting now

only one day away in the most important decision the United

Kingdom has been asked to make in a generation. And here in the SSE

Arena several thousand voters divided equally between supporters

of Leave and Remain have come together to listen to the final

appeals of each side. All the main speakers here on stage were

nominated by the designated campaigns. Speaking in favour of

leaving are the former Mayor of London, Boris Johnson, the Labour

MP... APPLAUSE

The Labour MP Gisela Stuart and the Conservative Energy Minister an

threea Ledson. APPLAUSE

Speaking in favourite of remaining in the European Union, the leader of

the Conservative Party in Scotland, Ruth Davidson. The Mayor of London,

Sadiq Khan. CHEERING AND APPLAUSE

And Francis O'Grady, General Secretary of the TUC. Also with us

here in the arena, at the other end of the arena is Mishal Husain with

other guests, who are going to be listening to what's being said up

here and commenting on. It Yes, I'll get reaction from my panel of

guests, representing Leave and Remain, business people, politicians

and others, who've played a part in the referendum campaign. I'm in the

media spin room, where we'll be getting instant reaction to the

debate from political campaigners and from the press and fact checking

with the BBC's reality check team. And if you want to take part from

home in the debate on social media, you can use the hashtag BBC debate,

go to BBC News, on Facebook, where you can post your questions and

comments. There's also an instant fact checking on our website,

bbc.co.uk/realitycheck. Now a few moments ago the two sides drew lots

to decide who would start the debate. The Leave side won and

they've chosen Gisela Stuart, briefly, to summarise their

argument. APPLAUSE

Ask yourself just one question, if we were not in the EU today would we

join it? And if the answer is no, then on Thursday you will vote Leave

and take control. The European Union was a noble dream in the last

century, but today, it has failed. It has turned into a nightmare. I'm

a mother and I'm a grandmother and I think it is terrible that 50% of

young people in Greece don't have a job. The only continent with a

growth rate lower than Europe is Antarctica. By being in the EU, we

lose control of billions of pounds every year. It doesn't have to be

like this. We can take back control over our laws. We can take back

control over our taxes. We can take back control over our borders,

immigration policy and security. You know, sometimes voting doesn't make

much difference. On Thursday, it really does. You will decide who

makes decisions about the future of this country, so, take back control

and vote Leave. CHEERING AND APPLAUSE

Thank you. Now to open the debate for the Remain side, their choice,

Sadiq Khan. CHEERING AND APPLAUSE

Good evening. In just two days' time, we will make the most

important decision for a generation. Tonight, Ruth, Francis and I will

set out the positive and patriotic choice to remain in Europe. You and

your family will be both better off and safer. Your job will be more

secure and your wages will be higher. The prices you pay in the

shops will be lower and your rights at work will be protected. As a

lawyer, I learned to listen to the experts and follow the evidence.

Well, the evidence is undeniable and all the experts agree - we are

stronger, safer and better off in Europe, even those who want us to

leave admit that it's a big gamble. If there's one thing you should

remember when you go to vote, it's this: If we as a country decide to

quit, then we're out for good. There's no going back. Being

outwards and looking and forming alliances makes our country so

great. I urge you to make the positive and patriotic choice and

vote Remain. CHEERING AND APPLAUSE

Thank you. Now the questions that we've picked for debate tonight come

from our huge audience, obviously they can't all ask a question. But

we've divided the questions up into three sections - the economy,

immigration and Britain's place in the world. The key issues, those

three key issues are what we're doing. First, before we go to the

questions, we want to give you an objective view of the issues that

are at stake. Let's have a look at the issues that both sides have

identified on the economy. The UK economy is the fifth largest

in the world and the second largest in the European Union, after

Germany. Exports to countries in the EU account for 44% of everything we

sell abroad. Last year, we exported goods and services worth ?223

billion to the EU, and ?288 billion to the rest of the world. Imports

from the EU amounted to ?291 billion, which means we have a trade

deficit of ?68 billion a year with the EU. All this trade takes place

within the EU's single market. That means there are no tariffs on goods

moving between EU countries. Leave campaigners say that would also be

possible under future trade deals, if we vote to leave. The single

market means a common set of rules and standards for almost all goods

and many services, rules that are enforced by the European Court of

Justice. Remain supporters say that makes it harder for other countries

to discriminate against British companies and that being in the

single market is good for jobs. Leave supporters say it means all

British firms are bound by EU regulations which add unnecessary

red tape and are often imposed without UK support. So when it comes

to the economy, which is the best path for Britain - to Remain or to

Leave? So let's go to our first question,

which is from a Leave supporter. I run a small business, employing

ten local staff, and have been stifled by the raft of EU

legislation that's been imposed on me. What benefits are there for

small business owners of remaining in the EU, as I can't see any? Ruth

Davidson. Thank you, Maxine. Small businesses are the backbone of our

economy. I know that some people can find the EU a bit frustrating and

fussy, but what it does, it provides a level playing field, so that you

can't be undercut by other companies in other parts of the world. That's

why eight out of ten of the CBI's small business members want to stay

in the EU. We also help to write those rules. If we came out of the

EU, we wouldn't have a seat at the table. If we wanted to trade in the

EU, the other countries could put on tariffs and taxes, so you couldn't

sell to all of these other nations, the biggest free trading block in

the world, for free. It would cost us more money. That would hurt our

economy. It would also hurt jobs in this country. I want our economy to

grow and not shrink. The other side haven't told us what would replace

the single market. They haven't told us how many jobs would be lost. They

haven't told us how long new trade deals will take. They haven't told

us how big the hit will be. I don't think that's good enough when you go

to vote. You have to know or don't go, vote to remain to the biggest

trade deal that we can get in the world. All right.

APPLAUSE I'm going to try to give equal time

to both sides tonight. Boris. Thank you very much. I must say that I

think it was extraordinary to hear that we would have tariffs imposed

on us, because everybody knows that this country receives about a fifth

of Germany's entire car manufacturing output, 820,000

vehicles a year. Do you seriously suppose that they are going to be so

insane, as to allow tariffs to be imposed between Britain and Germany?

CHEERING I've been listening to businesses large and small, up and

down our country, over the last few months. I've been amazed how many

passionately want to come out of the single market, because of the rules

and regulation that's it imposes. 100% of UK businesses, even though

only 6% only do any trade with the rest of the EU. I'm listening to

some of the most extraordinary success stories of UK manufacturing

- JCB, the makers of the fantastic diggers that are building this city,

building roads and cities around the world. They want to come out of the

EU and not just JCD, but James Dyson, the single biggest

manufacturer of vacuum cleaners in Germany! All right, Boris. He wants

to come out. Just let me finish this point. He's telling the papers

tonight that he thinks staying in would be an act of economic

self-harm. All right. The way to more wealth and more jobs is to

leave, vote leave. Take control on Thursday. Sadiq Khan. I'm pleased

you're speaking to people, Boris, and I hope you're listening to. One

of the people you're listening to is a chap called Patrick Minford, he's

your chief economic advisor. Now Patrick said and I quote, "Leaving

will eliminate manufacturing. Over time, if we left the EU, it seems

likely we would most likely eliminate manufacturing, but this

shouldn't scare us." Let me tell you, to those 2. 5 million who work

in manufacturing, it scares them. It scares their family and it scares

me. Thank you. Well I ran financial services businesses for 25 years. I

did a tint as City minister and I'm a mum. I genuinely believe our

future will be so much brighter if we vote Leave and take back control

of our trade. The European Union has been a disaster for UK trade with

the rest of the world. It is true to say if we remain in, we're already

one of the biggest contributors to the EU, their failed euro project is

going to cost us so dearly. We will be paying for it forever. Not only

that, the EU wants to expand its borders to include Turkey and we

simply cannot afford it. We need to take back control and vote Leave on

Thursday. CHEERING AND APPLAUSE

Francis, just a reminder, Maxine's question was what benefits there are

for small business owners. I was going to say that Maxine, your

question is about small businesses and there are lots of small

businesses in Britain that have a pretty tough time, but many of them

are also parts of supply chains. The Leave side roll out JCB, but that's

one company. All the experts are saying that the economy would take a

big hit if we came out of the EU, that we trade -- trade would be more

hit as well. If you don't believe the experts, then listen to the shop

floor, because I'm here representing workers tonight. Union reps from

BMW, Toyota, Ford, Nissan, you name is, across the manufacturing sector,

they are saying we cannot afford this gamble with our jobs, our

wages, our livelihoods and our rights.

Gisela. Maxine, as someone who run as small business you know you don't

have time to lobby in Brussels. That's why the big companies like

Brussels, because they are all just lobbying to have their rules

imposed. APPLAUSE. And you are left with

having to comply with them. What I find is where the real job

generators are the small businesses like yours. Let's say what will

happen after we vote to leave. The income payments, the chair of the In

campaign, Sir Stuart Rose of M, said it is not going to be a step

change or somebody is going to turn the lights out. And then very

importantly, he said wages will go up. That should be something that is

really very important, because the pressure at the same time of

uncontrolled immigration, which is what the Bank of England has said,

that with every 10% you've got a suppression of 2% on wages. So for

small businesses you are better off, take back control and leave.

APPLAUSE. Do you want to come back on that? I do. Let's be honest,

workers in this country have already been through a rough time. That was

nothing to do with this debate. That was to do with all those bankers who

crashed our economy. And workers ended up paying the price. So when

we talk about wages, the TUC has looked at all the hard evidence.

What it shows, what we can see is that in the long run, because our

economy would be hit, good jobs like the ones in BMW and the car

factories would be replaced by worse ones like Sports Direct and zero

hours, and Wetherspoons for that matter. Alright. Wages would drop in

the long run by ?38 a week. That's filling up your petrol tank in a

small car. That's a big hit and we can't afford it. Don't take the

risk. Andrea? Thank you. Frances, what Len McCluskey, the boss of

Unite union, the biggest union, has said is that in the last ten years,

the EU's accession plans have created gigantic experiment at the

expense of ordinary workers. The result has been sustained pressure

on living standards, a systemic attempt to hold down wages and to

cut costs of social provision for working people. The EU has also

created 50% youth unemployment right across southern Europe. It's a total

(Inaudible) for a generation of young people. Andrea, we are talking

about British jobs and we have the highest level of employment in our

country's history. If you want to trade quotes, let's talk about what

your side have been saying. Boris Johnson, his Chief Economist says it

will eliminate manufacturing. He also said the EU would generate an

economic shock. Michael Gove says it will mean inevitably bumps in the

road. He said he can't guarantee that people won't lose their jobs. I

cannot question that every person currently in work in their current

job will keep their job. Boris Johnson said, will there be job

losses, there might or there might not. That is not good enough. That

is not good enough. CHEERING. It hasn't taken them long.

Boris? It hasn't taken them long... Hold on. They told us they would

have a positive and patriotic case and they are back to Project Fear

within moments. CHEERING. I want to protect British

workers. It is positive. They have nothing positive to say. I want

to... Hold on. Lord rose... Everybody will have their chance,

but if you speak one at a time, everybody here can hear and

everybody at home can hear. Boris. Thank you. It was Lord Rose who said

clearly that there would be no shock, that things would go on as

they are. Except for one thing. He said people on low incomes, as

Gisela rightly said, would get a pay rise. He was supported in that view

by somebody on the panel opposite. It is no less a figure, I will leave

you to guess. Somebody said that in too many places immigration has

driven down local wages. Now, who do you think that was on the panel

opposite? It was Sadiq Khan. I think he was making a good point.

APPLAUSE. No I didn't, Boris. As a Conservative, and I'm a proud

Conservative and a believer in free markets, the differentials in

incomes in our country have become too great. It is wrong that FTSE 100

chiefs are earning 150 times the average pay of people on the shop

floor. It would be a fine thing if as Lord Rose said people on low

incomes got a pay rise as a result of us taking back control of our

country and our system. CHEERING AND APPLAUSE. Boris, can I

ask you a question? I don't think it is unreasonable that people are

worried about their local hospital, worried about their local school,

worried what would happen if our economy went into recession or if

they lost their jobs or business struggles. All the experts say, and

you know this, leaving the EU would cause problems from our country.

Most recently as today, the chap who predicted the crash in 2008, what

did he say, Boris? He said Brexit could stall the UK economy and tip

us into recession. It is not unreasonable for a mum and dad

worried about paying the bills to ask the question, what is your plan?

A slogan is not a detailed plan. We want an answer to the question, what

is your plan? How would you make sure the terms of trade with the EU

are better than they are now? How would you make sure jobs won't

suffer? How would you make sure small businesses won't suffer? The

last time there was a recession, hard-working people in this country

suffered, many lost their homes. What's important, Boris, you ask the

question, but what is your plan? APPLAUSE. The point is, we are as

things stand spending billions every year that go into a big black hole

in the European Union and it's going to get worse. All the Remain side

have to talk about is Project Fear. We are the fifth biggest economy in

the world. We will be able to have free trade once we are free of the

European Union that has done a terrible job negotiating free trade

for us. Even Switzerland and Singapore, far smaller economies,

have been able to negotiate more than five times the value of the

free trade of the European Union. APPLAUSE. Vote to leave on Thursday.

We have a second question. It is on the economy and it is from Miranda,

who is supporting Remain. As a black British woman, I am grateful for the

protections the EU has provided me in the workplace and in wider

society. If we leave the EU, will this be the beginning of a slippery

slope towards weaker employment and social rights in the UK?

APPLAUSE. Andrea? Thank you very much for your question. The truth is

that UK governments have led the way in providing good rights for

workers, even before the European Union came into existence we had

equal pay legislation. It's been... Governments of all parties have

created minimum wage legislation, now a National Living Wage, shared

parental lead, ad, child-free tax care -- tax-free childcare. It is

this country that is protecting workers' rights. We do not need an

unelected bureaucratic European leaders who none of us can even

name, let alone who any of us voted for, to tell us what our workers'

rights can be. We should take back control and look after our own

society. APPLAUSE. It is a question about

employment and social rights. Do you want to start? It is a really

important question from Miranda, because too often we hear the words

red tape and what they are really talking about is getting rid of

vital rights at work that we all rely on.

APPLAUSE. Now, these rights weren't gifted to us. We fought over

generations, over boted to us. We fought over generations, over

borders, trade unions - all of us fought author these rights. But the

EU guarantees them. These are really important to our real lives. People

don't always understand this. This about if your child is sick, getting

emergency leave to look after them. Them. It is about equal rights for

part timers and agency workers. We hear a lot about holidays, when the

working time directive came in, 2 million people in Britain got paid

holidays for the first time. Mainly women, mainly young people. Do you

trust them, can they promise us today, because I've heard a lot from

some of these leading lights in the Leave campaign and what they plan to

do on employment rights, can you promise us today that you will

protect each and every single right that we won through the EU? Alright,

that's the question. Gisela. We have done already. Already. I first

joined the trade union 45 years ago when I was an apprentice and I

though that strong trade unions, are best supported by Labour

Governments, protect rights. I find it extraordinary that I'm being told

that I can't trust you, the voter, to make sure we get a Government in

which protects workers' rights and we need Brussels to defend you.

APPLAUSE. The euro is a broken project. We are going to pay... No,

YOU are going to pay out of your taxes one bail-out after another.

And the European Union does not protect your jobs. Just a few years

ago, ford Transit got money from the European Union so they could take

their factory out of the United Kingdom and put it into Turkey. That

is wrong. APPLAUSE. Sadiq Khan. Miranda, I

would ask you a question, but Gisela, you are so wrong. Every time

we've been... Every time you and I have been in a lobby voting for

bills to give workers' rights, they've been in the other lobby

voting against those rights. APPLAUSE. Let me say this. Let me

tell you why you're wrong. Because Priti Patel let the mask slip. She

has said, if we could just halve the burdens of the EU social and

employment legislation, and let me tell you what that means. That means

rights for mums and dads. That means rights for part time workers who've

the same rights as full-time workers. Web the employer changes

ownership, they have rights. The worst thing for workers is their

bosses business going out of business. Them losing trade, losing

jobs. That's why we need a healthy economy. Gisela, you should know

better. APPLAUSE. Sadiq, the most important

worker's right is a right to a job. As long as we are shackled to a

failing eurozone liable to bail-out after bail-out, we will not succeed.

There's two points. Number one, the eurozone is growing faster than our

economy and the USA. Number two... You and I both fought an election

where these guys were boasting how brilliant our economy is, right?

They were boasting last year how brilliant our economy is. One of the

reasons why we are the fifth richest country is our role is enhanced by

being in the European Union. We are at the table helping the rules being

made. APPLAUSE. . Boris? In addition, it

beggars belief that the Remain side cannot think of a single one of the

EU's multitude of regulations they would get rid of, not even the

clinical trials directive, which prevents vital pharmaceutical work

being carried out. The EU I'm afraid is a job-destroying engine. You can

see it across Europe and you can see it, alas, in this country as well.

Gisela rightly mentioned the case of Ford. I would also mention what

happened to Tate Lyle, who tonight announced they want to come out of

the EU because of the destruction that the EU's Common Agricultural

Policy has wrought upon them. Not just on jobs in London but in the

developing world who want to export cane sugar to the EU. I would

also... APPLAUSE. I would mention Tata

Steel. We are told we cannot cut our energy costs to protect jobs in Port

Talbot because Brussels says no. CHEERING AND APPLAUSE. Nonsense.

It's a lie! Hold on. It is perfectly true. One lie after another after

another. Just cool it everybody for a moment. Ruth Davidson. You are

going to be asked to vote in two days' time and all you've heard is

trust us and it will all be fine. That's not good enough. They won't

tell us how much our economy will be hit by, won't tell us how many jobs

might go, what they are going to replace a single market with. If you

vote on Thursday, you cannot change your mind on Friday. If we vote to

come out of the biggest free trade bloc in the world, there'll be

tariffs put on British businesses. That will affect our ability to

trade abroad. It is not just the 27 we trade with now as part of the EU,

but there are 50 other countries in the world the EU has trade deals

with. If they come out, we go to the back of the queue. That's not

Project Fear. That's what Obama said. They want a deal with 500

million, not 50 million people. 80% of the world's economy is not in

the single market. The free trade deals that Ruth is talking about

that the EU has, those free trade deals are many of them, most of

them, 46 of the 50 countries are not in the single market. Many countries

in the world do more business with the EU than the UK does. You do not

need to be in the single market. We are the fifth biggest economy in the

world. Most economies can agree free trade deals within two years. The

European Union is taking ten years or never at all. Why? Because 28

member states cannot even organise a takeaway curry, let alone what

they're going to do on free trade with the rest of the world. All

right. The line was - we do not need to be in the single market. When you

are 5'6" it's not often you say size matters. But size matters awe the

bigger you are the -- because the bigger you are the more cloud you

have. -- cloud we have. Clout. If you are a company in China, America,

India, and you want to do business with 500 million customers, you can

have your headquarters in London and have a gateway to 500 million

customers. Boris you should know better. I speak to businesses around

our city every day of the week. You know what, half a million jobs in

London directly dependent on the European Union. I speak to companies

around the world, more than 60% of the world's leading companies, Sony,

AIG insurance, have their European headquarters, guess where? Here in

London. Half our exports goes to Europe. Boris, why have you suddenly

changed your mind? APPLAUSE

All right. Since we have a former Mayor of London and the present

Mayor of London... I think we've heard an amazing amount of running

down of our city and our country. We're proud of our city. The

astonishing thing is that they underestimate our ability to do

better deals if we're left to do it on our own. Let me give you an

example. Because of the EU system, our entire trade negotiating policy

is handed over to the EU Commission, where only 3. 6% of the officials

actually come from our country. It is no wonder that they have not

been, as Andrea rightly says, they have not done free trade deals with

China, India, the great economies of the world, including America, to the

extent, to the point where we - Just one question. We cannot because the

EU is in charge of our trade negotiations export Haggas. We

cannot export Haggas to America! Come on. Come on. All right. Boris.

Boris. Let's leave the haggis. Can you name me one country in the world

that has said it will give us a better deal if we come out of the

EU? The United States. Obama says we would go to the back of the queue.

All right. On that note, we have to move on. We've got a lot more to

talk about. We take a pause here where we can cool down. They'll warm

up again in a moment. Over to the other end of the hall here to hear

reaction from her guests to the debate so far.

David, throughout the course of the programme, we're going to be hearing

from this panel as well on the key issues. There are ten of them in

all, five from the Remain side and five from the Leave side. Let's

start our economic discussion over here with Priti Patel, Conservative

MP and Employment Minister. Are you part of a Government that asked

people to vote Ono the basis of not taking aI risk with the economy. How

does that square with what you're asking people to do now? We've heard

clearly tonight that we're the optimists. We have a brighter,

prosperous future outside the European Union, a complete contrast

to the Remain side that want to constantly talk Britain down. We've

heard clearly about the freedom to succeed, we can negotiate new trade

deals. It's pessimistic to hear from the Remain side that they're not

even interested in doing that. They don't want new partnerships. They

don't want new relationships. They clearly don't want to trade with the

2. 2 billion potential customers that exist globally in the

Commonwealth countries. That's about the future of our economy. Before I

go to the Remain side, I want to turn to you Tim Martin, founder and

chairman of Wetherspoons. Answer the charge that leaving the EU would

roll back workers' rights at a company like yours. It's complete

and utter nonsense. She picked on us for some reason. We pay 40% of our

profits as bonuses to staff that work in our pubs. No-one gets a

fortune, but I should have a reply to that, no-one gets a fortune, but

apart from John Lewis partnerships, so far as I'm aware, no-one pays a

bigger bonus to our staff. The rights that workers have now... We

will certainly not give up our workers' rights. Why do that? We

paid above what we had to for many years, long before the EU told us

what to do. Let me get a different perspective from business. This time

from Justin King, who ran one of our biggest supermarkets, Sainsbury's,

for ten years. Where Remain? This is presented as if it's a straight

choice. I think we can have the best of both worlds. We have a place in

Europe, which is unique and has allowed our country to prosper.

Almost everything the Remain camp is saying we ought to do, we can do

whilst still part of Europe. Germany's, four of their biggest

trading partners are outside of Europe. We are going to see real

damage to our economy. That's bad for small business, they'll be the

first to lose jobs. We'll see prices go up because our currency is going

to be hurt and a poorer economy means all the services, the taxes

and vibrant economy pay more will be harmed. You're sitting next to Sarah

Woollaston, until a short time ago you I Would Do Anything For Love

have been on the other side. I've listened to the evidence. It's clear

our NHS, health research will be hit if we leave. There will be less

money for those services and it will hit the workforce. It will hit our

leadership role in research and development and cooperation with our

European partners. There will be a very serious Brexit penalty for the

NHS, make no mistake. If people are caring about the NHS and research

when they make their vote, I would say vote to Remain with our European

partners. I will get a couple of quick thoughts. I want to turn to

you, from women for Britain. Work for Morrisons. What do you think

about what Justin King said about prices going up. I want to focus on

the rights, particularly what the Remain side were saying. We had the

first Equal Pay Act by the first female minister of state three years

before we joined the European Union. We have the sex discrimination act,

the domestic violent act -- violence act, and Margaret Thatcher the first

female Prime Minister without European Union assistance. Are you

seriously saying those rights and protections are just going to

disappear overnight? Of course not. A final thought now from Tim Farron.

You could dismiss the economic arguments as project fear. Nine out

of ten experts say we're better off in the European Union. Michael Gove

said we've had enough of experts, that's perhaps an explanation of why

he was such a dreadful Education Secretary.

CHEERING When I send my kids to school, I

want them to be taught by experts not the bloke down the pub. I went

to a small business in my constituency, they are exporting to

Romania. They provide play equipment over there. That contract is

entirely contingent, if we vote out on Friday, they lose that contract.

That's the case for hundreds of businesses across the country. Thank

you very much. More from this panel later on. David, back to you.

Now, the second topic is immigration. The second big argument

in this whole case. Before the questions and the debate, a reminder

of the question issues identified ash the subject -- around the

subject of immigration. 508 million people live in the

European Union. Freedom of movement means that all EU citizens have the

right to live and work in any member state. Last year net migration from

other EU countries, the difference between the number of people coming

into the UK and going out, was 184,000. From elsewhere in the wore,

it was 188,000. The European figure has risen a lot since the EU

expanded in 2004. There are now around three million citizens of

other EU countries living in the UK. An estimated 1. 2 million British

citizens living elsewhere in the EU. Because the UK is not a member of

the border-free Schengen area, anyone arriving here has to show a

passport and they can be refused entry if they're judged to represent

a serious threat to society. Last year, this happened to about 2,000

people from the EU. What about the future? Five countries have been

accepted as candidates for EU membership, Albania, Montenegro,

Macedonia, Serbia and Turkey. Current EU states have a veto over

any new members. Leave campaigners say staying in the EU means we won't

be able to control our borders or the level of immigration. Remain

supporters say EU immigration is good for the economy and planned

curbs on in-work benefits will reduce the incentive to move here.

So what has been the effect on Britain of EU migration? And is

immigration best managed within the EU or outside? So there's the issue,

our first question is from Jayne Williams, who is a Remain supporter.

My family and I have had first hand experience recently with the NHS.

How would it manage if we leave the EU, given the UK's inability to

train and retain sufficient doctors and nurses? Boris Johnson. I think

the first thing we should do tonight in a discussion about immigration is

celebrate immigrants and immigration and everything they do for our

country. Because I speak entirely personally, they are, my family has

benefitted massively from immigration and so, I know, have

millions of people watching us tonight. The crucial thing, though,

is to look in an informed way at what is going on, look at the

numbers, look at the pressure that is large-scale uncontrolled

immigration is causing for public services, such as the NHS. And the

downwards pressure on wages that I've already mentioned and that

Sadiq Khan has discussed. Look at the way in which we are forced by

our imbalanced system to push away people who might contribute mightily

to our NHS in favour of uncontrolled access to 510 million people from

the rest of the EU. What we think should happen is an

Australian-style, points-based system, so we get the people we need

for the NHS and indeed all our other businesses and services and the only

way you can do that is to vote Leave and take back control on Thursday.

Sadiq Khan. Firstly, Australia has double our

immigration, bearing in mind their population. I don't want facts to

get in the way Boris, of course, we need to have a fair immigration

policy. It shouldn't be a free for all. You don't hear me say this

often, David Cameron deserves credit for the deal he negotiated with the

EU. What it means is you pay in before you can take out. You have to

work four years before you can receive full benefits. Here's the

nub of it, immigration has brought huge economic, cultural and social

benefits to our country. The EU migrants more than 130,000 work in

the NHS and social care, thank you EU migrants work in our schools and

our construction sector. Thank you. More than 1. 5 million Brits

recommend ployed by companies owned by EU citizens here. Thank you. Are

employed. You might start off saying how wonderful immigration is. Your

campaign hasn't been project fear. It's been project hate as far as

immigration's concerned. CHEERING Gisela.

All right. All right. I am an immigrant. Sorry. I am an immigrant.

I'm also a mother and a grandmother. I think it is important that as we

plan for our public services, like the NHS, like the schools, like

housing, that we actually can plan ahead properly. And if we have

uncontrolled immigration, with the best will of the world, we will have

situations, like in the West Midlands, where there are 50,000

primary school places missing. This is simply a statement of fact. If

you cannot plan. What I object to... APPLAUSE

I think this is really important. The current immigration policies

unfairly discriminates against non-EU citizens.

APPLAUSE. Frances O'Grady. Jane made a really, really important point in

her question about our NHS. Let's not forget the NHS was built by and

for working people, and we should all be really proud of it.

APPLAUSE. But we've got thousands of EU nationals and from all ousands of

EU nationals and from all over the world - nurses, midwives, doctors,

other health professionals, the whole health team, working to save

lives and keep us healthier. We should give them credit where it is

due and recognise there would be a staffing crisis if we lost that

staff. There would be longer waiting lists, fewer life-saving drugs.

Drugs. David, if I may, I've got a really important question that I

just learned about today. Because today we learned that Vote Leave

took a 600,000 pound donation from a former member of the BNP. Are you

going to pay it back? APPLAUSE. A brief answer from one of

you to that question. That is unworthy of this debate.

CHEERING. There are millions of people who've very real and genuine

concerns about the impact of free movement on this country and who've

donated to a campaign to Vote Leave and take back control. The problem

with free movement, for me as a mum it is not just about uncontrollable

numbers coming here and putting pressure on public services. It's

all about security, for all of our children, for all of us. Free

movement does not allow us to even ask people if they have a criminal

record. The European Court has overruled British judges in being

able to deport criminals. We know Ron Noble, the former head of

Interpol, has said that the Schengen-free area in Europe is like

hanging out a sign welcoming terrorists to Europe. It is creating

enormous problems. APPLAUSE. Before I go to the other

side, can I remind you of Jane's question? The second half was, how

would we manage if we left the EU given the UK's inability to retain

doctors and nurses? As Gisela said, at the moment uncontrollable

immigration from the EU means we discriminate against 92% of the

world. There are brilliant health professionals in South-East Asia, in

China, in South America who would love to come here, but we have to

put up the barriers to them because we are required to allow people to

come here from the EU, whether or not they are trained to support our

health services. Thank you. Ruth Davidson. Immigration is hard and it

is really tempting to believe that there's one single silver bullet

like leaving theic that can fix it all. Yes, take back control. But

there is. We need a proper, credible plan to manage migration. They don't

have a credible plan, where you used to be able to come and take out

without putting in. That's changing. They say they want a points system.

Migration Watch says it will mean more people coming from outside the

UK to live here rather than yeah. Boris wants an amnesty for illegal

immigrants. They have had a poster in this campaign but they don't have

a plan for managing migration. There isn't a silver bullet.

APPLAUSE.. Gisela? I want to respond to some of the I think unnecessary

invective we heard earlier on by pointing out that somebody on the

panel opposite said only a couple of years ago, in the past we were too

quick to dismiss concerns about immigration, even worse accuse

people of prejudice. Who do you think that was? It was Sadiq Khan,

again. I do agree with Sadiq, you need a grown up approach to this.

I'm passionately a believer in immigration but it's got to be

controlled. When you've got numbers running at 330,000 net globally,

184,000 net from the EU, 77,000 coming without even the offer of a

job last year, it's obviously time to take back control, and the answer

to your question is have the Australian-style points-based

system. Boris, all of us accept that there are legitimate concerns about

immigration that need to be addressed. You are not being honest

by admitting you haven't got a silver bullet. You are scaring

people to vote to leave the EU. You are telling lies. Turkey is not set

to join the EU. Boris, you are telling lies and you are scaring

people, because you've used taxpayers' money to put out an

election leaflet that says Turkey set to join. There's a map, there's

a map. This map shows in red, Turkey, but the only countries named

in this map are Syria and Iraq. That's scaremongering Boris and you

should be ashamed. CHEERING. Gisela?

I would quite like the real David Cameron to step forward and tell us

what the policy on Turkey is. Because on the one hand he tells us

it will be the year 3000, or is it now 30 years? On the other hand, we

are spending ?1.9 billion of your money to accelerate accession of

Turkey. We've got a special section in the embassy to deal with speeding

up accession. He has just three months ago signed a joint statement

with all the other Heads of Government of the European Union to

accelerate accession. They are negotiating visa access of 1 million

from Turkey. He refuse to do so say he'll use his veto. Which David

Cameron are we going to believe? APPLAUSE. Ruth Davidson? Let me

answer on Turkish accession and let me say this. It is not going to

happen. It's just simply not on the cards. Not my words, Boris Johnson

said that on LBC Radio two months ago. Those were the words of Boris

Johnson two months ago. What's changed in two months, Boris? What's

changed in two months? It is simply not on the cards. It's Government

policy. It's Government policy. As far as I know last time I looked,

the Government wants to accelerate Turkish membership. I think Gisela

posed the dilemma clearly. It is something they want to happen in the

year 3000 or something they wish to accelerate. I think it is perfectly

reasonable to ask people whether they would rather proceed on the

basis of Government promises on immigration, or whether they would

rather take back control and institute a points-based system that

the electorate could actually hold the Government to account? The

problem at the moment... CHEERING AND APPLAUSE. The problem

at the moment. Boris! I'm trying to make a balance between the two

sides. I was asked the question. Forgive me. I know, but when you

talk at length, I have to go... Sadiq? Let's deal with this big fat

lie once and for all. Turkey isn't about to join. Until three months

ago you knew that was the case, Boris Johnson. In 1987 Turkey first

applied to join. There are 35 conditions, chapters... Allow him to

have his say, Boris. Of the 35 chanters, only one has been met. At

this rate it will take to the year 3000 this will they reach the

criteria. Uribe using the ruse of Turkey to scare people to vote to

leave. Youened aboth though there is no chance of them joining soon.

APPLAUSE.. We are moving on. Can I just say one thing to you in the

audience, I did say at the beginning of the debate, applause fine. Please

don't shout out, because you drown out the debate here and people at

home can't hear it. If you could just restrain yourselves, applaud if

you want to, but don't try to conduct a second debate with the

speakers on the panel. We are going to our next question, from Karim, a

Leave supporter. As a young working class man, I feel at the back of the

queue for entry level jobs, housing and public services. How many people

each year can the UK reasonably cope with? Frances O'Grady, your turn to

start. APPLAUSE. Well, there is no doubt

that we need to manage migration better. You're right, Karim, there

should be more opportunities, there should be more jobs, and not just

more jobs, better jobs. But I have to say I get fed up, migrants always

getting the blame for something that politicians in Westminster ought to

be doing something about. APPLAUSE. Because it seems to me

that zero hours, I want to tackle zero hours and I suspect everybody

else in this hall does too. Westminster can do something about

that. When it comes to paying a decent wage, that's Westminster's

job. And we really should be investing in more new homes, in

better public services where we have pressures on communities, our

schools and hospitals. Instead of cuts, we need investment. But

finally I've got to say why I get fed up with migrants being blamed

is, where did all this start? The big pressure on our pay and jobs

wasn't to do with low-paid migrant workers. It was those greedy bankers

crashing the economy, and if we leave will crash it again. Let's try

within reason to stick to the points we've been asked to raise. Rim

railed the point - how many people each year can the UK reasonably cope

with. Gisela? And that's the heart of the matter, the point you've just

raised, because any Government with the best will of the world when it

has to plan its public services, whether it is schools, whether it is

the NHS, whether it is training how many nurses and doctors we need,

housing, to get on the housing ladder, all those things are

impossible with the best will of the world if you have got uncontrolled

numbers comes in. Ave got uncontrolled numbers comes in. --

coming in. An Australian-type points system allows you to adjust things.

Australia happens to want more immigration because it is a large

country, but you want to reduce it. The one thing I find extraordinary,

uncontrolled immigration has allowed big companies not to do the kind of

training of our workers they ought to be doing, because they are able

to recruit cheap from the rest of Europe.

APPLAUSE. Ruth, Karim's question was he feels, he preface was he feels at

the back of the queue for entry level jobs for housing and public

services is. How many can the UK cope with? We do need to bring down

migration and looking at the skills you want to bring here. You used too

be able to come from the EU and take out the day you arrive. Now you have

to wait four years before you can take out full benefits. If you don't

find a job within six months, you can be asked to leave. Gisela talks

about public services, schools and hospitals, I don't think you can

discount the contribution migrants make, 150,000 in schools in England

and Wales. But my big issue is this. You don't fund schools and hospitals

and you don't control immigration by crashing the economy. That's what

leaving theic would do. APPLAUSE. Andrea? That is just

simply not the case. If we vote Leave and take back control this

Thursday, we will have a ?10 billion a year independence dividend that we

will be able to spend on our priorities. Not true. The Bank of

England has been very clear in its report, that uncontrolled

immigration has had downward pressure on wages in this country.

They simply haven't had a pay rise for years. Not only that, but every

family in this country knows how difficult it is to get the primary

school place of your choice, to get a doctor's appointment, and yes to

afford rents or to get on to the housing ladder. These are the really

legitimate concerns and the way to get over that is by voting Leave and

takeing back control on Thursday. CHEERING AND APPLAUSE. I've got to

come back on this. Immigration is a concern to a lot of people but

leaving theic isn't the answer. Yes, it is.

CHEERING. But it's not. How is it having more control if you have less

money in your pocket as Martin Lewis the money expert says? How is it

more control if we have a recession as the Bank of England says. How is

it more control if we are not investing in the schools and

hospitals and GP practices, if Karim can't get a job because local

employers are suffering, or how is it control if it is double the

immigration, and the points system, more control if there are businesses

from China, India and America choosing Germany and France over

London. How is it more control if young people don't have the

opportunity that we have? CHEERING.

I think Boris, it's your turn. Let me say directly to Sadiq Khan, I

think there's a lot of agreement around this panel. And they should

come over and join our side. Everything I've heard tonight is

their admission that something is wrong with our immigration system.

There's only one way to fix it and that is to take back control and day

after day, in the last week, we've seen senior figures in the Labour

Party, Jeremy Corbyn this morning, he's the leader...

LAUGHTER Said there was no way of controlling

immigration as long as we're in the EU. Tom Watson, Harriet Harman,

they're all finally accepting that the deal that was done did

absolutely nothing to restore control of our immigration system to

this country. There is only one way to achieve that.

APPLAUSE There is only one way to achieve

that and that is to vote Leave and take back control and put in the

Australian-style, points-based system that makes sure that we get

the people that we need to help our business, our NHS, but do not - I

find it a bit rich to listen to you... Boris, I find it a little bit

rich to hear people saying they're worried about wages, when your

Government has imposed a pay cap on six million public servants year

after year after year after year. Can I also say, Karim's question was

about numbers. I think the Leave campaign is selling people a big

con. Because you're not promising to reduce numbers. You have never

promised to reduce numbers. Yes, we have. And you're pretending that you

are going to reduce numbers. It's a big con. Don't believe them. This is

a one way ticket. If we're out, we're out. We will pay with our jobs

and wage it's we go. The accusation is that you've never

promised on the Leave campaign to reduce numbers, is that true? What

an Australian-style, points-based system would allow you is to decide

what the numbers are. At the moment, you can't. But can I just make

another point, this debate today actually isn't about - Sorry, can

you answer her point. APPLAUSE

Has the Leave campaign promised to reduce numbers? We say you take back

controll and you can decide. What we have not done is what the Prime

Minister has done and actually prom ilsed he would reduce it to the tens

of thousands, even though he couldn't do it. You're not

promising, it's a con. This is not about the six of us here on the

podium and the debate, this is about my children's future, your

children's future, our grand children's future. I think unless we

take back control over something as important as that we won't be able

to provide the public services they deserve.

APPLAUSE I do just have to remind people at

home in case they're mistaking that there are mums and dads and nans and

granddads on this side of the argument. The immigration issue is a

complex one which needs a grown up argument. We're not having it

tonight. Britain deserve better than people who say they have a quick fix

but won't tell you what it means for Britain. We need a much bigger

conversation than this. That just is completely nonsense. This country

will do incredibly well if we take back control and vote Leave. What we

will be able to do is to manage the numbers of people who are coming to

this country so that we can be fair to those who come here and fair to

those who already live here. What we've had for a number of years now

is a situation where people's pay is down, where the skills training is

down, where there's pressure on all of our public services, including

school places, doctors places and the housing market. The only way we

will ever get that back under control is if we vote Leave on this

Thursday. All right. Thank you very much. We'll take a brief pause again

and go to the other side of the hall.

Immigration has been an important part of this debate for the Leave

side. So let me start our discussion of it with the Remain side. Caroline

Lucas, Green Party MP, how would you address the real concerns that

people have about the impact of migration on housing, on school

places, on health? It's exactly about the real concerns, the real

concerns is about pressure. But that's not caused by immigration.

That is caused by successive governments' failure to invest in

those services. We have heard that you are far more likely to find

someone from another EU country treating you in the NHS rather than

getting in ahead of you. Migration is going to be a large part of this.

We have the freedom to live and learn, study and work in 27 other

countries ourselves. What an amazing gift is that? When you consider that

people coming to our country are bringing with them not only benefits

to our society and our culture, but also to our economy. Let us

ring-fence the money they are paying into our tax system and use that to

build leisure centres and libraries in those places under pressure, so

everybody can benefit. There's a two-way street here. I want to get a

thought from the SNP. Your party's rare in British politics, it has

campaigned for more immigration. I don't care if it's unpopular. Let's

stick with the facts. Migrants contribute more than they take out

of the system. Let me just say this much. I have been so depressed at

the state of the debate around immigration and the worst of that we

saw last week, when Nigel Farage unveiled a poster that I'm going to

say it was xenophobic and frankly, bordering on racist. Dianne James

from Ukip here should hang her head in shame and apologise to the

British people for lowering this debate into the worst type of

debate. Migrants contribute. They contribute to our public services.

They contribute to our economy. They even contribute to our cuisine. And

thank God for it. Let me turn to Dianne James now. Hang your head in

shame. Nigel Farage has apologised. Let's put a reality check, please.

That photograph - Are awe shamed of the poster? That photograph went up

on social media the minute the MP was murdered. It was taken down.

That picture and pictures exactly the same appeared in the media well

before in the early part of this year, highlighting what is

completely wrong with the Schengen system, what is completely wrong

with the EU fundamental tenent of freedom ever movement of people. I

want to turn to Tony Parsons. Is immigration part of why you want to

leave the EU? It's definitely part of. It I personally have nothing

against migrants. I like them so much I married one. I think it's a

bit rich that the Remain side are so devoid of any arguments that they

have to smear us as racists and bigots because we're not. Because we

love our country. We love our country. And I have not heard one

argument about how if we're too timid, if we're too frightened, too

small to leave this rotting carbuncle of the European Union, how

do we accommodate a third of a million people? Are you up for

sharing a platform with Ukip that unveiled that poster? I think

there's been a broad range of opinion. You can laugh all the like,

but you're so desperate, because you have no answers about how we build a

city the size of Wolverhampton every year because you can't answer it.

Thank you. I want to turn back to the Remain side. I want to turn to

Justin King. Your business, the business you used to run,

Sainsbury's, could just employ more British workers if we said goodbye

to freedom of movement. And they do. Sainsbury's and many other

businesses. There are more people born in the UK in work in the UK

today than at any time in our history. That is a fact. There are

more people in employment in total in this country than at any time in

our history. That's part of our economic success. Over 80% of

migrants are in work net, as we've heard, time and again, contributing

to our economy. That's a powerful part of our economic success. Answer

the point there about how we can cope with the population increase,

you care about the NHS, you're a former GP. How can we cope? It's

shameful to blame migrants for queues in the NHS. The queues will

get longer if we leave the EU on this Thursday. Absolutely make no

mistake, because there'll be less money to fund the NHS. There will be

fewer workers able to move here freely to work. There's another

point I'd like to make. I have heard from NHS staff, who have told me

that they now feel unwelcome in this country. What a disgraceful

situation. I want to say thank you to all those people working in our

NHS, please stay. We want you to stay.

We'll hear from this panel once more, before the end of the

programme. We will indeed. Now we have so far

this evening talked about the referendum outcome, how it would

affect the economy and immigration. Our final half hour, we're going to

debate the big issues of democracy, security and Britain's place in the

world. Just before we do, a reminder of how our relationship with the EU

has developed over the years. The EU began in 1951 as the European

coal and steel community, which had six members. The idea was to create

an economic area to bring European nations closer to together in the

wake of World War II. In 1973, the UK joined what had, by then, become

the European economic community. And in 1975, the British people voted,

for the first time, on the UK's membership, deciding to remain part

of the EEC or Common Market. In 1993, the treaty on European Union

was signed in Maastricht. It was widely regarded as a step change for

the European project because it legally established the EU as a

political as well as an economic union. It also laid the foundations

for the introduction of the sing the currency, which Britain chose not to

adopt. In 2004, more countries joined the EU. It now has 28 members

and there is the prospect of new nations joining, if they meet the

criteria for entry. But current EU states have a veto over any new

members. Senior EU leaders are talking about the creation of a

European Army, and a new European intelligence agency. Leave

campaigners say the EU has embarked on a relentless journey to create a

European superstate. Remain supporters say Britain can opt out

of future integration. The choice at this referendum is to decide which

path is best for Britain - to Remain or to Leave.

So, our first question in this section is from Douglas Warren. He's

a Leave supporter. Thank you, David. 40 years ago, the

UK voted to join a Common Market. If we vote to remain on Thursday, how

can we be sure that in another 40 years, we won't find ourselves in a

United States of Europe? APPLAUSE

Britain is a sovereign, independent country, just like Germany, just

like France. We retain control over our defence, over the pound, over

interest rates, over what we do in our schools, hospitals, our public

transport. We chose to join the EU and we're having a referendum to

decide whether Remain or Leave. I tell you why I think it's important

to Remain. If we choose to Remain, it means we're a member of a single

market of 500 million customers. We can do free trade with one set of

rules that we help make. I tell you this, if you're living in France,

you aren't any less French because you're a member of the EU. If you're

in Germany, you're no less German because you're in the EU. We're no

less British because we're in the EU. I just don't accept that there's

a tradeoff between trade and democracy. I think democracy is

enormously important. APPLAUSE

And what we've got now is an institution that has utterly

outgrown its historic roots, which were noble, has now become so

cumbersome and the real big difference was the introduction of

the euro. That means you've got a failing currency, which is producing

50% youth unemployment in Greece. They have to sort out their

problems. And the best way for us is actually trade with the world, don't

be this inward looking block and above all...

APPLAUSE Above all, you take back control

over all the decisions you have made, because in one in 28 and

another five countries joining, we will become increasingly

insignificant in making the decisions. So let's take back

control. APPLAUSE. Ruth, I will repeat

Douglas's question: How can we be sure in another 40 years we won't

find ourselves in a United States of Europe? Because it is up to us. We

saw in the films that we as a country are not in the euro, we as a

country are not in Schengen. I don't think you take control by leaving

the EU. I think you lose control by losing your seat at the table, by

allowing other countries put taxes on us. You lose control by hurting

our economy, by hurting goods, by hurting services. We at the moment

make the EU work for us. We are in charge of the pound, interest rates,

taxes, healthcare, education, spending. We make these decisions in

the House of Commons or the Scottish Parliament. Europe doesn't tell us

what to do. We make those decisions. We make decisions over when and if

our soldiers go to war. We make these decisions. We also because we

are part of the biggest free trading bloc in the UK have the highest

number of Brits in employment in Britain in our nation's history.

That's what we would lose if we left.

APPLAUSE. That really is an extraordinary claim. The truth is

that 60% of our rules and regulations come from the European

Union. That is a lie. And ALL TALK AT ONCE.

One at a time. I'm told you can't do this, you can't do this because of

the EU. There are five presidents of the EU. Can anyone name them? And

did anyone vote for them? You don't vote, for them because you are not

allowed to vote for them, and you can't kick them out either.

APPLAUSE. The problem is that in the EU there are 10,000 officials,

nearly twice the number of people in this room by the way, who earn more

than the UK Prime Minister. And you're paying for them. And that

gravy train is continuing. So we, we, Britain, have voted against

Europe 70 times. And 70 times we have been outvoted. So how does that

mean we have any influence in Europe?

CHEERING AND APPLAUSE. Frances? I think we've already heard Britain is

a sovereign state, and we should be proud of that. We do control our

taxes, our public spending, all these other decisions that sometimes

Westminster politicians like to blame on Brussels. We do make those

decisions. But where you have a fantastic market that gives you real

bargaining power in the global economy of 500 million people on

which 3 million jobs depend, then of course you should have fair rules

that everybody has to play by. Again, I keep hearing about

regulation, these are our rights. This is about treating workers

fairly. We should be proud of that. I will be honest with you, I'm proud

of being British, but there is nothing patriotic about a lack of a

plan as to what even would happen if we came out? There is nothing

patriotic about putting people's jobs at risk.

APPLAUSE. I think we've heard enough from Project Fear over the last

couple of weeks, I really do. CHEERING AND APPLAUSE. I will give

you one statistic. They go on and on about the single market. Let me tell

you, since the dawn of the single market, which I remember reporting,

there have been, 1992 it January 1993, there've been 27 countries

that have done better than the United Kingdom at exporting goods

into the single market, they include India, China and America. The best

place for us is to be out of this morass, this supreme legal system.

Sadiq Khan is completely wrong. The European Court of Justice is the

supreme legal authority in our country. From which, and he knows

that because he's a lawyer, he would not deny that. Deny it. You would

not deny it. The European Court of Justice is acquiring steadily more

powers. Under the Lisbon Treaty the EU expended by about 45 new areas of

competence, and the European Court of Justice... And a United States

state of Europe? Adjudicating in home affairs matters of deporting

terrorist suspects, divorce laws, nothing to do with the idea of a

single market. And the United States of Europe. Boris, I have to leave

you because you've gone on, a United States of Europe in 40 years, yes or

no Remember what John Major said about the single currency. He said

it had all the quaintness and implausibility of a rain dance and

look where it is now, destroying jobs across the European Union.

Let's get out of this thing and we'll do better, creating free trade

deals. Vote Leave and take back control.

APPLAUSE. Ruth? So that's a no then. Even Boris Johnson doesn't think

there is going to be a United States of Europe in 40 years' time. There's

one now. I need to pick up on something Andrea said. I can't let

it stand you make a blatant untruth. 60% of our laws is made in Europe,

she says. It is simply not true. 13% of our laws, according to the

independent House of Commons library, that number is 13%. In the

last five-year Parliament it was four. Four bills out of 121 that

came out of Europe. I think there is a real question here that you're

being asked to make a decision that's irreversible. We wake up on

Friday, we don't like it and it was sold on a lie. They lie about the

cost of Europe, about Turkey's entry to Europe. They lie about the

European Army, because we've got a veto on that. They've lied about

that too and it is not good enough. You deserve the truth, you deserve

the truth. CHEERING AND APPLAUSE. Gisela? You

do deserve the truth. If the Prime Minister is refusing to say that he

would exercise his veto over Turkey, what do you this I he's going to

veto? Let's be clear about the United States of Europe, which

Douglas addresses. Those countries in the eurozone will have to

integrate more deeply. And in a sense we have already left, because

they have to do things in their own interests and we are purely

peripheral. So the best thing to do is come back and take control. The

other thing, there are a number of things out there which the European

Commission is holding back until after the referendum. Tax

identification number, European-wide. We have not vetoed

that. Why do you think that's going to happen?

APPLAUSE. Can I just say... Can I say very proudly that I choose to

work with the EU to fight climate change. I choose to work with the EU

to fix air quality. I choose to work good EU to deal with the refugee

crisis. I choose to work with the EU to fight terrorism and organised

crime. I choose to work with the EU to fight tax evasion. Let me tell

you what else. One of the most important jobs I have as Mayor of

London is to keep our city safe. In July 2005 our city was under attack.

On 7th July is terrorists were successful. 52 Londoners died. On

21st July, they weren't. All the men were arrested except for one. He

fled our country and went to Italy. Before the European Arrest Warrant,

he would have been there for years and years and years, like Costa del

Sol. What happened? He fled here in July, he was brought back in

September. He is serving 40 years in prison for terrorism. Justice

delivered by the European Union. CHEERING.

APPLAUSE. Our second question tonight, our final question from the

floor, is from Alex. Alex Trembath is supporting the Remain side. Can

we have your question, please? Is it a coincidence that the longest

period of peace in European history has happened at the same time as the

emergence of the European Union? CHEERING AND APPLAUSE. Gisela

Stuart? The post-World War II deal was to fold. The Common Market was

supposed to provide economic stability. NATO was supposed to

provide military stability. APPLAUSE. What we've got now is that

the European Union is not keeping up with the deal. It is creating

unemployment in Greece. It is outsourcing its border control to

Turkey. It is undermining NATO by trying to duplicate the same

structures. Just to quote the former head of Interpol, Ronald Noble, he

said the EU border system is like hanging a sign welcoming in

terrorists to Europe. It is making us insecure rather than making us

securer. APPLAUSE. Ruth? Alex, a short answer

is no, there is no coincidence that we've been more or less at peace.

The other side have said throughout this debate they don't like experts,

but when it comes to keeping our country safe and secure, I want to

listen to the experts, so when the head of GCHQ says we are safer in

the EU, I listen. When five former NATO chiefs say we are safer in the

EU, I listen. When the head of your o poll, a Brit, says we are safer in

the EU, I listen. When the head of MI5 and MI6 says we are safer in the

EU, I listen. When all all of our major allies - America, Canada, all

of our major allies - America, Canada, Australia and New Zealand -

say we are safer in the EU, I listen. And if it comes to a choice,

if it comes to a choice of listening to all of these people, even if they

are experts, or listening to these three about who keeps my family

safe, I'm going to vote for them every day of the week and twice on a

Sunday. Don't risk it. APPLAUSE. Andrea? Let's be clear

about this. The UK has always benefitted from being a founder

member of NATO. We have one of the few permanent seats on the UN

Security Council. We are one of the ity Council. We are one of the five

Is for -- one of the five eyes for intelligence. We share it across the

world with other English-speaking nations. Of course we co-operate

with the European Union and we will continue to do so. But Field Marshal

Lord Guthrie, Chief of the General Staff, General Sir Mike rose,

commander of UN forces in Bosnia, Major General Julian Thompson,

marine commander of the Falkland, they say that UK security rests on

NATO co-operation, not on the EU. Lord givery says many European

politicians like to say that it was the EU that made everything

peaceful. It was not. It was the leadership of the Americans.

APPLAUSE.. Frances? I want to return to Alex's question, because this is

not just about history. I want to bring it closer to home. Many trade

unionists and other campaigners in Britain and Ireland worked together

for many years to support the peace process in Northern Ireland. And it

took a lot of hard work. We've supported the good Friday agreement

ever since. The wonderful thing is that people can come from different

traditions, come from different communities, but they see themselves

as common citizens of the EU. The Irish Prime Minister has said that

if we come out of the EU, there will have to be border controls. Let me

tell you, the way that is seen in Belfast and Derry, I really worry

for our future. APPLAUSE. This is not the time to be

building... We should be building bridges between people, not walls.

APPLAUSE. For the sake of the Irish, vote to stay in. Boris? I believe,

alas, the EU is going in totally the wrong direction. It is a mistake for

it to try to take on this defence component and try to evolve into a

United States of Europe in the way that it is. I remember when the EU

was given the task of trying to sort out the tragedy in the Balkans. You

will remember what was happening in Bosnia. The EU was mandated

specifically for four years, the EU was given that diplomatic and indeed

military task. It was a disaster, about 1 million people died. It was

only solved when the Americans came in. I was there. I remember

reporting it. We saw what happened when the Dayton accords and NATO

finally asserted primacy. That was the right thing. I do worry about

our security on the streets of this city to get back to a point that was

made earlier. It is absolutely extraordinary that the the European

Court of Justice, not the Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg, but the

Court of Justice in Luxembourg is telling our Home Secretary she may

not support people with serious criminal convictions to other

European countries, or indeed people who've been arrested for serious

terrorist offences, such as Abu Hamza's daughter-in-law law. I think

it is absolutely amazing, and how the Remain side have the cheek to

come and tell us that we improve our security by staying in this

organisation, I do not understand. The best way forward is to keep the

European Arrest Warrant inter-Governmentally. Thank you.

Andrea and Boris talks about our allies, talked about Nato. It's not

a choice between the EU and Nato or between the EU and our allies, we

can still have a special relationship with the USA and be in

Nato. Which of our allies, USA, Canada, New Zealand, Australia,

which of the Nato members is encouraging us to leave the EU or

says it's in our interests? Name one. Just one. Name us one. USA?

Canada? News zealed? Australia? One of the Nato countries? All of them

are saying we're safer together. All of them are also saying as long as

the European Union keeps trying to copy what Nato does, if the

countries across Europe are not paying their 2% of the GDP, which is

the Nato contribution, we will be weakening it. Stay and fight, don't

quit. Let's stay and persuade our allies to pay. Don't be a quitter.

Be proud. We can do it. We heard earlier, that the Prime Minister was

meant to have got a deal. That deal amounted to absolutely nothing. It's

temporary. So when you've had the most serious renegotiation attempts

by a British Prime Minister, certainly since I've been in

politics, and the best he got out was nothing, how do you think you're

going to change it after you have voted to Remain? There's a dangerer

in remaining, vote Leave. CHEERING AND APPLAUSE

I think Boris maybe misjudged this panel by talking about the Balkans.

What he probably doesn't know is I was sent to the Balkans as a

reporter. I have never been more proud in my life than watching

British troops with a Union Jack on their arm to see them pulling their

weight and helping in the European Union. It's what caused me to join

up and serve. So I think I'm the only one on this panel who's worn

the Queen's uniform. While I have the greatest respect for the retired

general Lord Guthrie, the greatest of respect for him and with the

greatest of respect for him, I would gently remind the other side of this

debate that as a retired general, he's not currently charged with the

safety and security of our nation. All those people who are currently

charged, every single one of them, an every single one of our major

allies says we are safer within the European Union. Andrea. Let's get

back to the really important question about the UK's place in the

world. Let's get back to that five president' report, the five

presidents of the European Union. The report just last year is saying

that by 2025 they want to see complete political and fiscal union

of all 28 EU member states. So we have this one, last chance to keep

our democracy, to make sure that in future, when you want to sack a

Government, you can sack it and you know that it will go, that you won't

find the very next Government that you appoint is still stuck doing the

bidding of the European Union. Let's be clear, those measures that those

five presidents wants to impose on us do include a European tax

IDification code and they do include a European army. Let's be clear -

the best way to be in charge of our own democracy is by voting Leave

this Thursday. CHEERING AND APPLAUSE

Sadiq. Briefly if you wo. The other side

know this. They've lost the debate on the economy. There are no

experts... Won the debate on the economy. There are no experts

backing up their case. It's lies and scaremongering. You know, and this,

and you want the British public to take a one-way leap in the dark

without a plan. You know we can feature those plans much you know

the deal we've got. We can veto any plans for integration. Oh, rubbish.

You know the rights we've got. All you want to do is talk us down. You

should know better. All right. No, we have to pause there. We've been

outvoted. Now we return for one last time to Michal

This vote is not about today or tomorrow, but about a choice that

will matter for many years to come. So let's turn to the panel to find

out what sort of Britain they would like to see. Dianne James of Ukip,

is your Britain a diminished one? President Obama says the EU

magnifies our influence. I'm not particularly interested in what

President Obama has got to say because he won't be a president of

the United States in a few months' time. I'd be more interested in what

the two contowarders for that role would be. As for the Remain camp

talking about trashing the economy, what about the 259 billion black

hole, the 34 billion the UK has got to pick up and every single time the

EU mismanages the contributions from the member states, the United

Kingdom has to pick up an element of bill. I want that 34 billion back

spent in the United Kingdom. I don't want to keep on funding the European

Union, which has effectively become a failed state.

I'm going to turn to Tim Farron. You have spoken about being passionate

about European membership, passionate about expanding the EU,

an EU army. I'm passionate about the fact that we are sat around a table

with 27 countries, 11 of which a quarter a century ago were on the

other side of the iron curtain. Six of which had nuclear weapons on

their soil pointed right here. Today they are our friends and our

neighbours. We put that at risk at our peril. This is a vote about what

kind of country we are. Are we an outward looking, decent, embracing,

tolerant country, confident of our place in the world? Or are we ins

lar? Are we small? Are we glouring across the white cliffs of Dover?

Something which is un-British. I'm voting in because I'm a patriot.

Back to the Leave side. Tony, small, inular. I respect Tim and his

opinion. I do think that we in this country, we are the oldest

Parliamentary democracy in the world. I personally think we live in

the greatest country in the world. I would love us to be 21st century,

outward looking, international, we're having this debate tonight

with all these lovely people in the capital of the world, London. But I

think we need to set ourselves free. This is where Tim and I disagree. I

honestly believe we need to set ourselves free from this rotting,

corrupt bureaucratic institution, full of men and they are mostly

men... You spoke earlier about what British women had achieved. Why

would we achieve more outside the EU? David Cameron was givening the

pure opportunity to reform and use our influence within the European

Union to reform the union. He asked for nothing and you know what, he

got nothing back. The European Union doesn't listen to us. It doesn't

have our best interests at heart. So I'm voting Leave to become a citizen

of the world, you know what the European Union is the sick man of

the economy. Before I go back to the Remain side.

You heard that long list of figures of experts, although that's a

dismissive word at the moment, that Ruth Davidson had, all those people

who believe we are safer in, shouldn't you be listening to them.

I take the view and I will say this again, that Britain will be

stronger, more secure outside of the European Union. For all the reasons

that we've heard from Gisela, Andrea and Boris this evening, because we

can take back control from the unelected and unaccountable,

bureaucrats and the institutions in Brussels that do nothing to

represent Britain. They take our money. They spend our money. They

don't account for themselves fiscally. At the same time, they are

having a corrosive influence when it comes to decision making on our

laws. Our Parliament should be sovereign and we should be

accountable to the British public. We should be able to say no to

Brussels. OK, thank you.

Caroline Lucas, the EU is on a path to future integration. Why should we

be part TV? The EU is the -- part of it? The EU is the biggest peace

project we've ever had in history. It is extraordinary that 28

countries have come together to try to solve their problems through

debate and discussion rather than bullets and bombs. It wasn't that

long ago, since that was the way in which problems were tried to be

solved here. It's been the EU that has helped to bring peace to western

Europe, bring democracy to Eastern Europe. We turn our become on that

at our peril. The biggest challenges today are by their very nature

cross-border, climate change, international trim, the refugee

crisis. We have to work cross-border in order to solve those problems.

That is about taking back control. That is why we should vote Remain.

Thank you. Thank you to everyone on this panel and the hashtag for it to

continue, the discussion is BBC debate.

Thank you very much. We began with brief opening statements. We end

with concluding statements, the other way round, Ruth Davidson first

of all for Remain. APPLAUSE

Tonight was the Leave campaign's last chance to answer your

questions, to spell out exactly what happens if we abandon the biggest

single market in the world, to show us what a Brexit Britain would

actually look like. I don't know about you, but I don't think I heard

enough to be confident that they have all the answers that you need.

And you have to be 100% sure. Because there's no going back on

Friday morning, and your decision could cost someone else their job.

Now I know that the EU isn't perfect. But the benefits far

outweigh any costs. And the Britain that I know, the Britain that I love

works with its friends and neighbours. It doesn't walk away

from them. Sadiq, Francis and I refuse to dismiss the experts. We

listen to them. The economists, the scientists, the business leaders,

the trade unions, the health professionals, they all agree that

Britain is better off in. You are better off in.

There is nothing more positive than having a stronger economy,

supporting jobs and opportunities. That's why I believe you should be

vote Remain. Thank you. CHEERING AND APPLAUSE

Thank you, Ruth. Now Boris Johnson. CHEERING

At the end of this campaign, I think you'll agree, there is a very clear

choice between those on their side, who speak of nothing but fear, of

the consequences of leaving the EU and we on our side, who offer hope.

Between those who have been endlessly rubbishing our country and

running it down and those of us who believe in Britain. They say we

can't do it. We say we can. They say we have no choice but to bow down to

Brussels. We say they are woefully underestimating this country and

what it can do. If we vote Leave, we can take back

control of our borders, of huge sums of monies, ?10 billion a year net of

our tax-raising powers, of our trade policy and of our hole law-making

system, the democracy that is the foundation of our prosperity and if

we stand up for democracy, we will be speaking up for hundreds of

millions of people, around Europe, who agree with us, but who currently

have no voice. If we vote Leave, and take back control, I believe that

this Thursday can be our country's Independence Day.

CHEERING AND APPLAUSE All right. All right. Please. Thank

you. Thank you. That brings the debate to an end. My hope is that

it's clarified some of the issues not only for you here but for people

at home. I'd first of all like to thank all of you who came here to

Wembley to listen to the arguments, thank you very much for listening. I

was going to say quietly, I won't say quietly, for listening so keenly

and enthusiastically to the arguments. I would like to thank all

those with Michal and those on stage with me, thank you all very much

indeed. Now, it's goodbye from the hall here, but watching all of this

has been Emily Maitlis with a wide range of guests in our spin room and

the question now is what have they made of what they've heard?

Good evening from Wembley Arena's spin room. That debate is finished

on the main stage, but this is the moment and the place that the

narrative of the night may get honed. Over the next few minutes,

we're going to bring you reaction from the nation's media

organisations, who as you see have been gathered here. They're filing

copy and column inches as the talking went on. We will be hearing

from the big beasts in both the Leave and Remain campaigns, how do

they think their teams inside the arena fared this evening? First,

though, we head to reality check, our corner where our economics

editor and Katya Adler, our Europe editor, have been digesting the

facts and figures flying around this evening. Hello. Let's go with what

stood out for you and we knew Turkey would come up and sure enough, that

was pretty centre stage. Start us off with what we know is the truth

there. We knew immigration would be a huge

debate and an emote EU one. Is it pie in the sky that Turkey will ever

join the EU? Or is it poised to join? We heard from something that

it is never going to happen. That is disingenuous, because Turkey is in

accession talks for the EU. EU. It has been in the last ten years. If

you look at the British edgecy website in Ankara it says part of

its job is to help prepare Turkey for accession. But it is nowhere

near joining. In those ten years it has hardly advanced on the talks,

and that's science and research, never mind freedom of speech and

human rights. Even if it fulfilled all the criteria, every country,

including the EU, would have a veto. What's the truth in that ?38, on

wage? On wages? The economy Remain believe is their strong suit.

Frances O'Grady made this striking claim that we would be ?38 a week

worse off if Britain leaves the European Union. The big problem for

the Remain camp on this economic debate is yes most large economic

organisations believe that in the short term at least if Britain left

the European Union there would be a short term economic hit. But Remain

made into this specific number, ?38 a week. That depends on which of the

models you look at. It is difficult to say from a forecast you can draw

out these precise numbers. That's where the public watching it think,

hang on a minute, this is only a forecast. It is about the future.

How can you be that specific? We heard this phrase ntinued throughout

the night - take back control. What's the truth about which side

can take back control? We heard from Andrea Leadsom tonight particularly,

she said this considered that within the EU we've got the freedom of

movement for EU citizens. She played the safety card, she said it was

impossible to stop EU citizens coming, even if they have a criminal

record they can come to the UK. She is correct and incorrect, you can

stop EU citizens coming from the UK. Having a criminal record isn't good

enough. You have to pose that they pose an actual risk. It is possible

to stop them coming. When you look at Remain, they argued strongly in

favour of immigration. They said the Government here, the UK Government,

has the better plan so that essential services aren't affected.

You cannot plan. With freedom of movement with EU citizens you never

know how many will apply for jobs in the UK. And growth, what do we know

about that? One striking claim was that the eurozone has only Continent

in the world with worse growth than the eurozone and the Leave camp said

that's Antarctica. That sounds good superficially, but in growth Europe

and the eurozone is doing slightly better this year and the UK and the

US. If you look at continents or parts of continents like Latin Mc,

they've been growing more slowly than the eurozone. It is this idea

of Britain being shackled to a poorry performing eurozone has been

true in the past. But there is some evidence that Europe has been

growing more quickly. This Antarctica claim is increasingly

difficult for them to execute. Thank you. There's much more expert

analysis online. And on social media. One of the moments that got

the assembled journalists excited this evening was that question, how

the UK economy will fare outside the EU. A tricky one for the Leave

campaign, with reports from economists about the risks of

leading. Let's talk to one of the leading Leave voices, Michael Gove.

Thank you Emily. I pointed out in a previous debate that many of the

people who are urging us to stay in the European Union were the same

people who got it wrong over the single currency. They made a mistake

in the past. They are making a mistake now. What was really

striking about tonight was the Leave side put forward an optimistic

can-do hopeful case which resonated with the audience. Whereas the

Remain side were concentrating very much on a pessimistic story of doing

Britain down and saying that we can't cope outside the European

Union, and if we vote to Leave we'll have war in Northern Ireland and the

NHS collapsing. They accused you not of Project Fear but. In project

Hate. Do you think the campaign went over the top on the immigration

message? Absolutely not. Sadiq Khan has said in the past it is wrong to

say that people who want migration controlled are prejudiced. You admit

that it made you shudder. Do you think it has become a turning point

where you don't want to push the immigration line too much? I am

engaged, as the Leave campaign are, with a conversation with the British

people how we can take back control of critical areas. When it comes to

migration, like Boris and Gisela, as an immigrant as she pointed out, I

believe Graylings is a good thing, but we need to be able to control

the numbers. We cannot control the numbers if we are in the European

Union. That was a point that Jeremy Corbyn made earlier this week. That

panel raised the question of the ?600,000 donation from a former BNP

member which you made clear you wanted to hand back. Not sure the

message got through to your team up there. I think Andrea Leadsom said

people have real concerns about free moment. Was has that a back for a

former BNP leader there? What's happening to the money? We are

investigating how this money arrived in the accounts. I think that it was

an 82-year-old lady who had been signed up by the BNP by her husband,

now dead, and as soon as she discovered that, she asked for her

name to be taken off. We are investigating. I don't have all the

facts in front of me. The imputation, is allegation behind

that is people who want to Vote Leave are somehow motivated by

prejudice. When you ce. When you have laugh the country ce. When you

have laugh the country - I hope more - going to vote Leave it is wrong

for the Remain campaign to try to indulge in personal attacks of that