How Should I Vote? - The EU Debate

Good evening and welcome to How Should I Vote?: The EU Debate.

Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union

That's the question you'll get to answer in exactly four weeks'

time when the nation goes to the polls on the 23rd June.

For the next hour, on BBC One, BBC News Channel and Radio 5 Live

we're joined by an audience of 18 to 29-year-olds and senior

politicians from right across the UK who're here to try and help you make

up your mind on what could be one of the most important votes

Tonight is all about you, so let's hear from some of you.

Good evening. I'm Joanne from Leeds. I'm undecided. I don't know which

way to vote. I need convincing arguments to decide either way. I'm

Hayley, 23 from Glasgow. This referendum is really important. Not

a lot of young people my age are talking about it. I want to know how

it will affect me personally. Hello. I'm a student from London. I'm

undecided because I feel as though both sides of the campaign focus too

much on the bigger picture rather on how it will affect the individual

whether we stay or We will try leave. And get answers tonight, as

you might have gathered. there are 55 of them -

all say they are undecided, These 40 people here all say they're

going to vote leave and these 40 people here all say they're

going to vote remain. At the end of the programme we'll

ask our undecideds if they've heard anything

to convince them either way. Also with us here in Glasgow,

for Remain: Alan Johnson from Labour, who's a former Home

Secretary. Alex Salmond, from the Scottish

National Party, he's a former First Minister of Scotland,

who ran the Scottish Government and is now their foreign

affairs spokesperson. They want the UK to stay

in the European Union. From the Leave side: Diane James,

Deputy Chair of Ukip and a member Liam Fox, from the Conservative

Party, he's a former They want the UK to leave

the European Union. Our first question tonight. I'm 18,

I'm a student. I'm currenting setting my A levels and plan on

going to university. Will I have a job if we leave the EU is our

economy strong enough? We've creating more jobs than anybody in

Europe. That is why so many young people are coming from other parts

of Europe to get parts in the UK. That is part of the question we

aring at. We need to look at how we late to the global and European

economy. It's about what country we want and world we want to live in.

It's about making decisions. Young people, in particular, I think, are

used to making many more decisions for themselves, what they want to

read, how they get their news, communicate on social media and so

on. Will he have a job if he leaves the EU? If you're good enough to get

a job, you'll get a job. Who will actually control that economy that

you're talking about? This is the bigger debate is about. I've never

voted on a referendum in Europe either. I was too young, last time I

was in school. I want to leave the European Union I want control of the

laws we live under. I want control...

APPLAUSE. I want to get control of our borders so we stop under

controlled migration and I want to ensure that we use the money that we

have in the best way for our priorities in this country.

Including how we stimulate our own economy and how we make sure we have

the highest possible standard of living. You can only have control of

those things if we leave the European Union.

APPLAUSE. Did that answer your question? Sort of. What do you think

he said? He's addressed the small parts of it. He's not addressed the

examples of our economy is, sort of, being pushed by unskilled migrants

coming in from Eastern Europe. They are driving our economy forward. If

we are going to close that level and that route of migration, how are we

going to replace it? I will bring in Alan Johnson now. Will he have a job

if Britain votes to leave the European Union? Yes, I think he will

have a better chance of a good, well-paid decent job because part of

our argument is the opportunities that are there in the European

Union. So already Liam's pointing to the fact that our economy is

successful. That's as part of the European Union, part of this huge

single market. 520 million consumers that we are selling to. It's not

complete yet. It's not complete, something that is important to young

people, which is services. The creative industries. Music. All

those things we do well in this country, most analysis says if we

complete the single market in services, along with digital gaming,

the new opportunities opening, it will create 700 to 800,000 new jobs

over the coming years. I think this is the start of an even bigger

opportunity if we remain in the European Union. OK. You go to

university in the autumn, did you say? At the moment, I'm tending

towards staying in, from what I heard now is staying in the Leave

campaign. Sure. Are you going to university in the autumn? Yes. What

do you want to study? Economics and politics. OK. Diane James, if

Britain votes to leave, are there going to be jobs? You know what the

Bank of England warned, you know what the Treasury warned, he is

worried about that? You stand a far better chance of a good job, a job

that you're not competing with potentially thousands of other

Europeans if we actually leave the European Union. Now, we've got 2.2

million EU workers here already. They have taken effectively UK jobs.

We have high UK unemployment, 1.7 million. We have really still very

unacceptably high youth unemployment at just under 700,000. Just to do

the maths. You know, 1.7 plus 700,000, that's 2.4, we have 2.2

million foreigners here. Now, if we continue as an EU member state, you

have only to look at the state of the unemployment market for young

people in the southern Mediterranean countries, some instances of 53%

unemployment rates for people like you. Your age group. So it's got to

be a case of, come out to guarantee yourself a really good job, to

guarantee yourself a job and one that you don't have to compete for.

APPLAUSE. Alex Salmond, you're on the Remain side, you want him to

vote to stay in the European Union. Is he going to get a job? When he

graduates, is he more likely to get a job if Britain is in the European

Union or out? Well, he's more likely, if we stay in the European

Union because there will be more jobs in that circumstance. The young

man is studying economics you will be able to answer your own question

in three or four years time. In the meantime, I don't go with the

scaremongering stuff. You mentioned the Treasury and the Bank of England

recently. The Treasury says it will be apocalypse if Britain left the

European Union. I don't believe. That I believe what the Bank of

England says, which is that there will be less growth and less jobs.

The bulk of independent forecasters say the same thing. So, I think

staying in the European Union because of the single market,

therefore you have a better chance of a job. There is one other aspect.

Being in the European Union means that, not just a single market of

500 million. It's a community of 500 million people. You have the ability

to travel, to work, to visit, without a visa, you can go to

Barcelona, watch decent football. You have that whole European

Community at your disposal. A qualified person in particular has

an excellent chance of employment. The straight answer is it wouldn't

be an economic apocalypse if we left the European Union, but there are

more Jobs and more chances if we stay in. All right. Let's hear from

some people on the Remain side. Hello. I'm Richard, from London. I'm

a buying assistant in London. If you look statistically, the European

Union has stagnated economic growth. Now, economic growth builds jobs.

How, in any case, if he's looking to get a job, once he graduates,

surely, out of the EU, if you look at countries like Switzerland,

Norway or the Asian markets, like Singapore, you can see all these

countries are independent. They've had far more economic growth. On

average in the EU we had 3% per annum. It's terrible. The EU is

stagnating growth within the economy. Economic growth delivers

jobs, simple as. Hi. Yes. I'm from London. You say that 2.3 million

workers coming to Europe is a bad thing. Why is that? They're helping

our economy. Secondly, tomorrow I could decide to pack up my bags and

move to Spain to start the business I have that opportunity. By leaving

I don't have that opportunity. Wherever you are in the UK

you can join us too, Liam Fox, you are on the Leave side.

How many jobs would be lost if Britain voted to leave the European

Union? I don't think we know exactly what the impact will be one way or

another. The one thing I'm clear is the economic forecasters nearly

always get it wrong. The point has been made that the European economy

is stagnating because of the euro. A million jobs have been lost in

Spain, Portugal, Greece and Italy combined over the past five years.

That is - has an impact on us because it clearly means a lot of

young people will come to the UK. The Bank of England has said that

every 10% rise in the migrant population in the UK depresses wages

by about a further 2%. It's not just a question of jobs, it's the impact

it's having on the wider economy and the European economy is now the

lowest growing continent in the world apart from Antarctica. It's

not what the we want to tie ourselves to. How much job losses

will there be if Britain decide to stay in the European Union, the

shackling to the block of countries where growth is stagnating? What the

gentleman said is interesting, look, what about Switzerland and Norway.

It's absolutely true, if the UK negotiated an economic area

agreement like Norway then you could minimise the economic damage. You

would end up accepting the European regulations without having any say.

No way accepts the regulations and accepts free movement of people. If

you wanted to be a mid-Atlantic Singapore. Singapore is a small

country in a large trading area. The UK would be a big country out with a

large trading area. Singapore benefits. Many years ago Singapore -

I know these people were developing nations. They've grown. We were a

developed nation. That is going to saturate out. We can't continue

growth at the same rate. I take your point. We are growing at a

hindrance. I was in Singapore recently, nobody says they want to

leave the trading area. Nobody says they will leave that trading area -

It's naive to think we can't trade with Europe. Why are we regarding

these people who come from Europe as a negative? These are hard-working

people who are earning a living. Who are contributing to the country.

Making the country grow. You described the apocalyptic forecast

from the Treasury. The Chancellor, George Osborne, you are on the same

side as him. I want to ask the audience here, when you hear those

forecasts of a recession, half a million job losses in the next two

years, said the Chancellor. Youth unemployment rising by 10%, answer

yes or no, do you believe those economic forecasts? NO! OK. That was

broadly a no, I would say. These are people on your side. It was a loud

no from over there. No from these people as well and the undecideds

who need to be convinced. People don't believe some of those

forecasts from the people on your side? It's every single assess am.

Oxford Economics London, school of Economics, Price Waterhouse Cooper.

The IMF, OECD and then it was the Treasury forecasts. Now - You heard

what people said. Sure. Yesterday the Institute for Fiscal Studies,

highly respected, rubbished by the Leave side, as anyone who I is as

anything they disagree with get shouted at. The Institue of Fiscal

Studies said it will take take 5% out of our economy. One point, the

guy over there said - we are the fifth largest economy in the world.

We have been members of the European Union for 43 years, maybe that has

something to do with us being the fifth largest.

APPLAUSE. That's not logical, because if the

economic well-being was to do with just being in the European Union,

how come the European Union is at a 21%? It's part of it. -- at 8.1%.

Michael from Glasgow. I'm 26 and a cleaner from Glasgow. My question

is, the Chancellor George Osborne says that Britain leaving EU would

cause a drop in house prices. In a your audience of young people who

are likely to struggle throughout their lives to afford affordable

housing, why is this a bad thing? I'm always puzzled by the British

obsession with house prices. And in relation to that, where ever you

live in this country, we seemed to think that the fact houses are very

expensive and difficult to buy is a good thing. I tend to agree it's a

bad thing. All those economic reports I mention are about interest

rates and unemployment rates going up and our economy tanking and a

large chunk of wealth being lost. As we turn our back on the biggest

commercial market in the world, bigger than America and China, and

we would be walking away from it. It's the biggest trading block... We

still would be. Michael Astor question. -- Michael asked the

question. Why is this being part of the debate, isn't it is is an

example of a cynical and political debate? There is cynicism in both

sides of the debate. The Chancellor of the Exchequer in my view

scaremongers on the economy and the Leave side scaremongers on

immigration. All of the reputable independent forecasters, they don't

forecast economic apocalypse but they certainly forecast damage if we

leave the marketplace. We are not the responsible parties for the

utterances of George Osborne, believe me, so we want to put a

positive argument for being in the European Union across tonight. We

want to look at the achievements, and we are happy to discuss where it

has gone wrong and get a bit of idealism and belief and commitment

in this debate and leave the scaremongering behind. That will not

win votes. Ideas and principal will win the votes. Diane James? It's

interesting, and I take the point about immigration... What about the

point Michael raised about house prices? I will make the link, on the

basis that your point is about can you afford a house, effectively? Can

you, if we remain a member of the European Union, is that a remote

possibility? My response is that it probably isn't. Because if we can't

control the number of people coming here, hence my point is to yourself,

you will never be able to catch up and you can't plan. One of the

aspects Alan Johnson's party makes all the time is the responsibility

of national government to provide sufficient infrastructure including

housing. I have no problem with that, but if you don't know how many

people are coming in, if your local authorities have no idea how to

plan, what to plan for, and what the demand will be, and we have seen

with today's statistics, I think your question is quite frankly, I

think your chances of affording a home are questionable if we continue

as a member of the European Union. Liam Fox? I have no problem with

controlled migration and it can bring... We are talking about house

prices. I'm coming to that. I have no problem with migration and

controlled migration can bring benefits. But an uncontrolled number

will put pressure on public services, on the health service and

on schools and housing. No government in the past 40 years has

built enough houses. It's a supply and demand problem. But if you

increase your population by 3 million in the last five years, as

we have, it means you have a housing shortage on top of a very all

difficult situation. I think we need an increase in housing supply to

bring house prices down. It can't just be about those who have houses

already, it's about young people being able to get into housing.

Another house question. Emily from Poole. I'm a music the juice, I live

with my mum in eight council house. My mum is disabled. -- music

producer. We need a new house but immigrants have bumped us down the

list. I wouldn't make that connection. If we have a housing

shortage we should build more houses. That's how we respond.

Not kick people out the country. The element of scaremongering about

immigration, 3.5% of the population of Scotland is from the rest of the

European Union. If you go outside tonight in Glasgow and stop 100

people, the likelihood is that three of them will come from the European

Union. About 5% across the UK. Liam Fox says how about the pressure on

the health service? What about the people from the rest of Europe

working in the health service? Let's just say that Boris Johnson

disagreed his jaw this evening from overuse -- dislocated his jaw. If he

went to the hospital local to him where 10% of his doctors and nurses

were from the European Union, and he said he didn't want treatment

because that person was from Estonia, it's nonsense, they are

hard-working people contributing to this country. Emily wants to come

back. I'm not saying they are not hard-working, but at the same time

we do not have enough houses now, how are we supposed to house them

when we do not have enough houses as it is? Where will we put them? I'm

graduating next month. Congratulations. I'm from Aberdeen,

like Alex, and my point is about immigration first half. You need to

factor in that we also go to Europe on mass, more so than we have ever

done before. As young people in this audience, how many of us go on

holiday this summer or at Christmas and don't think twice about it. We

do so much with Europe. We aren't their partners and neighbours. Think

about Calais, how will the Jungle be dealt with if we are not still in

Europe? On housing, look at the directives the European Union has

helped with, especially with rented homes and council housing. It's

because of the EU we have certain regulations that allow us to have

spacious rooms. Before then a box sized room was classed as a bedroom.

That was completely unfair and you could Peyroux end of three or ?400

per month for a room the size of the desk. -- pay rent. Emily and her mum

need to realise that the UK Government are the people that can

build council houses. The European Union are not a scapegoat for you to

keep blaming. I didn't actually say I'm blaming them. I'm just saying

that at the moment that is the issue. That is an issue at the

moment. Go to your local MP. We have tried that. We have a housing

shortage now, but the more we let in, the less houses we will have two

house them. How do you work that out? It's funny you have a selective

memory bastion of immigrants like my family, and a lot of people in this

audience, they have built this nation. It's not just at the

immigrants we are having problems with. The housing as it is, with all

of us. Who has a house here in this age group? Emily, will you be voting

to leave? I want to leave! That's absolutely clear. You are voting to

leave because you think it will reduce net migration to the country?

Not just that, but it needs to be controlled. We give ?350 million per

week to the EU, 50 million per day. No we don't. Can we not afford to

build houses and give Emily's mum the house she needs Westwood we

don't give --? We don't give ?350 million per week. The figure is

wrong, they have been told to stop using it but it's on the side of the

bus. It's about half... I know we have no interest in the facts. Have

you not heard Boris Johnson's story? According to the analysis we get

between three and ten times that value back because of the

opportunity to use that single market and trading. 50% of our

exports, seven out of the ten biggest countries we export to our

in the European Union. Liam Fox is disagreeing. It's profoundly wrong.

If you look at how much we give to the European Union and how much we

get back, there is a net difference of around ?10 billion per year. It's

not 350 million per week. That's a gross figure. It's about 10 billion

per year. Does anybody think we couldn't use ?10 billion to help

improve the quality of the health service or housing or anything else?

Just to be clear, that means you wouldn't be using some of that... It

is 8.5 billion net. That means you wouldn't use some of that 8.5

billion net to pay subsidies to farmers that the EU pays, two

playgrounds to poorer regions of the UK? That's the net figure. -- pay

Antz. There is around the 10 billion some that we pay in net and it's

about control, and how we use that money for the priorities in our

country. I'm not against migration, but it's about controlling it so we

get the best of both worlds for the country. When you have an

uncontrolled figure, you unavoidably put pressure on public services, on

schools and hospitals and GPs and housing. It's unavoidable if you

have that very big number. It's not about stopping it, it's about

understanding what you can get from it, but it's for us to have control

and for us in our own country do decide that number.

By the way, the deadline for registering to vote and having

your say on whether the UK leaves or remains in the EU

A couple of tweets... Stuart Young says, will the economy be strong

enough if we leave? Ghost towns on Twitter says people should look at

the bigger picture rather than their own personal gain when it comes to

the referendum. Mellon who is going to vote to remain is that Britain

has three votes in Europe as well as over the foreigners. Amanda Craig

from Glasgow. I'm a student from Glasgow. My question is, both the

Remain and Leave campaigns seem to be using project fear tactics. Where

is the positive case from both sides? Alex Salmond? I absolutely

agree with that point. You agree both campaigns are using negative

tactics? We have been through the recent referendum in Scotland and

it's almost as if project fear in the Scottish referendum has been

divided in two and one half is the Remain campaign led from London, and

the other half is the Out campaign led from London. That's not the way

to lead these campaigns. We have four weeks to go, and if we want to

engage people, Alan Johnson and I have to argue the benefits and

achievements and the rights Europe has given us. But project fear won

in Scotland? It worked! We started the Yes campaign in Scotland on a

small percentage of the vote. The Remain campaign can't afford to lose

1% per month otherwise they will lose. To win a campaign and to

motivate people, you have to argue a positive case. Leave the

scaremongering behind and argue the positive case. Asking the undecided

people, have the campaigners risen to the challenge? Have they risen to

the occasion? I'm 21, and I just want to say, here we are again. We

are gathered around at exorbitant expenses to be here, and once again

we have deflections, insults and petty name-calling. I'm going to ask

all of you individually and I want an answer, do you actually believe

your own campaigns? The Leave campaign will throw out a figure

that you will rubbish, and you will each rubbish each other. What are we

supposed to do? I have no idea what to do and I blame you lot entirely

for that. More views on the campaign? Hello.

Jason from Dundee. What do you think of the campaign so far? Has it

engaged? I agree with Kieran. I'm hearing tit-for-tat. Is it any

wonder we are sat here undecided when we hear petty arguments across

the room. It's what Alex were saying, they have the economy on one

side, they have immigration on the other. That's the card they play.

Get the emotions ramped up. People argue - guess what, more people in

the middle than either side. How significant a decision is it for

you? For me, I'm one of the older ones here, on the closer side of 30

than most people. I'm a homeowner and work for a multi nation company

based in the UK. The important issues, the impact on my job,

security, interest rates, mortgage rates, travel across Europe and

enjoy holidays. It all matters to me. I'm not hearing any good reasons

from either side at the moment. I'm just hearing tit-for-tat. I want to

ask Leave and Remain. What do you think of the Leave campaign? I think

the Leave campaign have been scaremongering, it's appalling. Your

own side has been appalling. In what way they have been scaremongering?

The noise about immigration. How awful it will be if we stay, but I

mean I do want to leave. I think we will be better if we do leave. I

think we should be putting across the good points. I want to ask the

Remain side, if David Cameron believes all this scaremongering we

will have a World War II I, our economy will be completely awful,

why are we having a referendum? Surely someone that cares about the

country wouldn't give us one if it was that dangerous? We are where we

are, aren't we? I will come back in a second. What do you think about

the Remain side's campaign? I think the Remain campaign should be

talking about the benefits within Europe. What you think of it so far,

what is wrong with it? Focussing too much on the economy. Apathy is the

biggest winner in any UK election. I can see it happening again. I can

see the election being won with less than 50% of the population, in all

honesty. People won't turn out to vote. If that turns out to be the

case, are you saying that's because of the quality of the debate? The

quality of the debate, tit-for-tat. Useless politicians argument. More

should be done to speak about the benefits of staying within Europe.

Every single one here owns a smartphone. EU. I say EU. I'm using

it as an umbrella term, I beg your pardon, I will use EU. Give her a

chance. Let her finish the sentence. Go on. The two to me are

interchangeable. Here we are, a perfect example of tit-for-tat. Can

I finish? Excuse me. Hang on a minute. Finish your sentence. The

majority of us here all own a smartphone. Come the beginning of

next month EU data charges will go down within Europe. Let me finish.

Let me finish. It's a good reason. This feels like I'm in the House of

Commons here and it's Prime Minister's Questions.

APPLAUSE. Very aggressive. I went to France

2012 my phone bill because I was uploading pictures - for goodness

sake, be respectful, I will come to you in a moment. Was four phone bill

more than ?350 million a week? From your own side your campaign is

appalling, you concentrated on immigration and that's not good,

according to the woman on your side. I don't agree that it's appalling.

One of the aspects of concentrating on migration, not immigration, we

concentrated on migration, on the basis that's one very clear example

where the UK Government, people that you elect, people like the three

gentlemen here, to represent you in the House of Commons, actually don't

have control over a key aspect of the economy. So some of the

questions that we've already had, the aspect that I brought up is

that, if you can't control the number of people, if you can't

control demand, because you can't control supply you are forever in a

spiral downwards. You can control net migration from outside the EU.

We had the latest figured today D-350,000 - Hang on a minute. As

many people are coming from outside the EU, which Britain can control,

as are coming from within the EU. Yes. What we do know is we want, for

instance, more medics, more nurses, more engineers. Those key stem, if

you like, people that have been trained in those key subjects. With

he are unable to control that - If Britain left, how would you control

EU immigration, what would change? By the simple basis... No, please.

By the simple basis, if they meet the skills that this country

actually wants, they would then become a priority. It would be

visas? No, it wouldn't be visas. We know Alan we want doctors. If we

have qualified doctors in Commonwealth countries, in

Australia, New Zealand, Canada. France, Denmark, Estonia, Lithuania.

Maybe. Why not have somebody from the Commonwealth, someone who speaks

our language - Ah! I do have an issue with that, actually, Alan. I

do. You want to respond to that? If I wanted a doctor a qualified

Lithuanian, French, German, Danish doctor would do me just fine.

APPLAUSE. We had an interesting exchange

between two members of the audience. The lady talked about how roaming

charges would be abolished. That's an achievement of the European

Union. Not the biggest achievement. The lady saying, that's nothing like

the fake figure of ?350 million a week. If you take the real figure it

translates into 23p a day for every one of us. About half a Mars bar. I

don't know what the young lady's phone bill, I'm sure her roaming

charges were more than 26p a day. It's not the most important thing

about Europe, but it's a significant achievement. More questions to come.

Do not worry. I can see people with their hands up. We will come to you.

Let me tell you. We will take two questions: It's

clear people living in the UK enjoy moving and travelling around Europe.

My question is. If we were to leave the EU, how difficult would it be to

move and travel around Europe in the future? Let us hear your question,

Stephanie. Hi. I'm a student and I intend to study abroad at some

point. What will we lose and gain in terms of international relations and

travel if we leave the EU? OK. Shall we take that one first? Liam Fox. I

don't think you need to lose anything at all. There is a world

outside the European Union. People do go and study and travel and have

holidays elsewhere. My dad was taught French and Spanish, long

before we were in the European Union we had holidays in France and Spain.

People did continue to go and study in other countries. That will

continue. Why do we have these arrangements? It's genuinely in the

interests of both parties to do so. People want to come and study in our

country. It's good for us to study elsewhere. The idea because we are

not in the European Union you will not be able to have a holiday in

Mallorca. To be fair, no-one is suggest we won't be able to have a

holiday in Mallorca. The complete University Guide says as members of

the EU anyone here would be able to study in EU nations as home students

compared to fees charged to international students, home fees

are lower or non-existent. The difference between Europe and the

European Union. Programmes have bigger student programmes - An

exchange programme. It's not just the European Union. It's the

European continent. It's countries like Turkey as well, Norway,

Iceland. Europe is a great continent of individual nations with their own

history. The European Union's a political construct. Europe and

exchange and trade and travel existed before there was a European

Union. Stephanie's fees may be higher if Britain is outside the

European Union if they wants to study at a university abroad? Why

would it be. The programmes are decided in the mutual interest. It's

the same as trade. We had all these programmes before we were in the

European Union and we will have them when we're not in the European

Union. Just as we have programmes and people study in the United

States or Canada. I don't have a lot of money. I'm working-class. I have

a tiny wage, I'm on a zero-hour contract, where am I supposed to get

the money for these increased fees? How am I supposed to support myself

in another country if it's not going to be treated like home?

APPLAUSE. But you're making an assumption here

that because we're not in the European Union Germany will not want

German students to come to the UK and we won't want to study in

Germany. That doesn't make sense. We will have agreements because it's in

both our interests to do so. I want to make a point. It comes back to

what Diane said. It's a crucial issue about whether or not we're

outside the European Union we would need visas to travel. We have a

beneficial system we can go anywhere within the European Union, it's a

two-way process. No other country has more of its citizens living and

working in other developed countries than Great Britain. Now, if we're

not to have visas, Diane you said we wouldn't, to go on holiday or people

to come here. There are 2.5 million tourists who come to Scotland every

year. How are you going to differentiate between the Polish

plumber and al-Polish tourist. It means surely a system of visas if

you haven't got a system of visas you will be telling people we will

stop free movement you will not introduce visas so free movement

will be there. Unless you put a border or watchtowers between the

Republic of Ireland or Northern Ireland you will have people coming

across there. It would be an EU country and a non-EU country. So

that's dealing also with the point about easy - you can get-up-and-go

anywhere in Europe. I could leave right now if I wanted to - Bye. You

can come with me if you want, we can go together. Don't laugh, I'm

serious. I haven't got a visa! Can you be

clear about this. Are you saying if Britain votes to leave there would

be visas or not? Victoria, we just don't know. We just don't know.

Because we have a Prime Minister who has said there is no plan B. He's

not presented a single bit of detail as to what happens if we vote to

leave. He's left it all completely open. We've even got a civil service

that would - with a what it would feel like, what it would like. I'm

responding by saying we don't know, I don't believe we will need visas

we seem to be - it's part of the Project Fear. If we leave all of a

sudden fortress Europe puts up the barriers and stops all of this

happening. It's - what is very clear, from Mr Juncker, in the

European Parliament, he is the one who started the scaremongering this

time round. In the last few days we have been accused of being

deserters. Responsible politicians and responsible Prime Minister that

conducts the negotiations and should have by this stage identified that

sort of detail. Let us hear more from our audience, particularly the

undecideds. Do introduce yourself. I'm Zara, 21, I'm an events manager.

It seems to be in every single brought up will be to do with

migration and immigration. Every point is tied into that. What I want

to say to you guys. You are saying if people want to study in the EU,

then that's fine that is mutually beneficial, both sides can go

back-and-forth. Why would it be OK for us to send students abroad and

students from abroad come to us, yet not allow people to live somewhere

else and someone live and work here. Quick points. Down here. I would

like to address the point about the Northern Irish border. I see a lot

of people talking about that. It's not discussed in a mainstream

debate. I want to the hear what the Leave side say about that, really

The lady behind her, to take her point first. Yes, you are quite

right. Where you get exchanges, whether it's students, people who

are working, you can get mutual benefit from doing that. My problem

with the European Union is it's uncontrolled when it comes to

migration. I'm a doctor, I can see the benefit of other European

doctors coming into this country. We need to control the total flow or

you get a problem with access to things like the health service. On

this gentleman's front. We had agreements with the Republic that

were bilateral before we were in the European Union. Why would we want to

have different arrangements today. They always worked before which were

in the EU. To answer that question, which I don't think was answered.

Just because we are able to travel freely, it's different from, working

freely. I'm all for people being able to come as tourists freely into

this country. If they want to work in the United Kingdom they would

need to get a work permit, like somebody who came from outside the

European Union. It's not beyond the wit of man to allow tourists to

travel freely but make sure you have a work permit when you want to work

here. You have a million people coming

from Europe to take jobs in the UK. Nobody from Europe is coming to take

British jobs if you have two GCSEs. They are not coming to do that.

Doesn't matter who they are, if you have the qualifications and you can

do the job, I don't see the problem with it. You even said earlier that

you because of the great economy in the UK, arts of people from Europe

are wanting to come to study here. Why is that a bad thing? I'm happy

to have that but want to be able to control the process and control who

comes to the UK. That's reasonable for British people to want to do

that. I'm from Manchester and I'm a student. I take the gentleman's

point, and the lady made an excellent point on immigration. I'm

pro-migration, but I wonder for the Leave campaign, why would we

discriminate against people from the EU, people bringing skills, and I

think we should take people anyway, but if we want certain skills in

particular, why would we discriminate against people from

India and China? I think it's an excellent point. I'm currently

battling to keep an Australian family who were attracted to the

Highlands of Scotland in the homeland Islands campaign we had

when I was First Minister, who now getting kicked out of the country. I

think that family should be able to stay and contribute. When Stephanie

asked a practical question about whether she would be able to study

elsewhere in Europe, what we got from Diane was that she didn't know

and Liam Watts to control the process which inevitably means

either work permits or visas. -- and Liam said to control. Stephanie has

an absolute right to go and study anywhere in the European Union. This

side cannot guarantee that. We need a microphone otherwise we

can't hear you. Hang on! That I lot of students here and you all choose

to study in the UK. Why have you chosen to study in the UK and why

did European students come here. If you are able to go abroad, why don't

you? The reason is, you don't want to go into Europe, because we are

better than them, and that's why we should vote to leave! Some comments

from people listening and watching from the UK. A personal reason for

me wanting to remain, living and working in the EU without any

concerns. I think we can reform the UK once we leave the European Union

and the globalisation and fits the ultrarich while penalising the poor.

-- globalisation benefits. If you want to find out more

about any of the issues that have come up tonight,

the BBC's Reality Check have been fact checking all the details

on the BBC News sites. Next question. I'm from Dundee and

I'm a student. I'm wondering if Scotland voted one way and the rest

of Britain voted the other way, would it lead to another unwanted

independence referendum in Scotland? By definition it couldn't be

unwonted, because it would have to be wanted, and it would only be if

the Scottish parliament proposed it. It would create a democratic mandate

for it so I think the Scottish Government would push for it even

though it only went ahead two years ago. It would have to be a

democratic mandate, because the First Minister last year in the

general election said this, that if Scotland was dragged out of Europe

against its will, it would be a change of circumstance to justify

another referendum. The SNP won 56 out of 59 seats, in the recent

Scottish election, it was in the SNP manifesto and there was another big

victory for the SNP. By definition it cannot be... 47% of the vote, the

biggest mandate of any governing party in Western Europe. I'm

interested in hearing from the other Scots. You can only have the

circumstance if the majority of the Scottish bond votes for it, and that

means not just the SNP, but the Green party. By definition, it can

only be wanted and it can only be democratic. If the circumstances

arise that you describe, when might that second independence referendum

be? It would have to be in the two-year period of the UK

negotiating a withdrawal. If we had the situation where Scotland in four

weeks' time votes to remain and the rest of the UK or England drags

Scotland out by voting to leave, in my opinion that would justify

another referendum, because during the 2014 referendum, the people of

Scotland were told that voting no would secure Scotland's position in

the European Union. It sounds ironic now, but that's what we said two

years ago. Liam Fox, a Scotsman from an English constituency. Nicola

Sturgeon said it was a once-in-a-lifetime referendum. It

was Alex Salmond who said that. I don't know what the SNP didn't

understand about the result. The Scottish people voted to stay in the

United Kingdom. It's very important on the EU point. Our membership of

the European Union is a decision we make as the United Kingdom. That's

why in the referendum, every vote counts the same. We don't count them

in constituencies or districts. Every vote is the same, Stornoway or

St Ives, it's a decision for all the people of the United Kingdom and we

should take it on the merits of the European Union debate and not be

sidetracked into yet another fear campaign about a Scottish

independence referendum. If there was another independence referendum

in the next two years, would you win it? In the circumstances of Scotland

being threatened of being dragged out of Europe against their will, I

think it would be yes this time. Next question. I'm a student

studying in Aberdeen. Would there be any disadvantages or advantages to

the NHS depending on which way the vote went. You are a student nurse?

Yes. Advantages and disadvantages for the NHS in voting to leave or

stay. Diane James? It might sound like I'm repeating myself, but we

could, by controlling who comes here, prioritise where we want

people in terms of skills. We are bringing in a lot of foreign nurses.

I think it's something like a 9000 deficit in terms of nursing numbers.

I understand that the nursing training programme in the UK was

effectively cancelled and that is why we have had to go elsewhere

around the world to bring in nurses. I would far rather see people like

herself go through the nursing training programme and work here.

Equally I would like to see medics, like we have done over decades now,

coming from Commonwealth countries like India and Pakistan, places like

that. Unlike what Alec accused me off, I'm not against European NHS

staff. What I said was, and let me correct you please, what I said was

I would like to prioritise on people here in the United Kingdom, and

prioritise on the skills that we actually want in terms of medics,

nurses, doctors and surgeons, I don't care what they are, and we go

to the countries where we have a good relationship, have had

individuals from that country historically, and we can adjust them

on that basis. Alan Johnson. Of all the arguments the Leave side are

putting forward, the NHS is the most ludicrous. The current chief

executive of the NHS and his two predecessors have said the NHS is a

taxed based system. It's not a free system, it's free at the point of

use, but paid by tax payers. If the economy shrinks the NHS is in

trouble. All of those economic forecasts say the economy would be

badly damaged. At the moment, this is the problem with the NHS, it

needs to be at the European average spend. In Europe they spend about 9%

of their wealth on the NHS. We were doing that up until 2010. It has now

gone back to 6%. That's the problem, putting as much of our wealth into

the NHS that matches the European average, not using the NHS as some

kind of argument to leave the European Union. Do either of those

answers help you reach? A little bit, yeah. What are you thinking of

what they both said? I don't think Diane James answered my question, to

be honest. It was just more of the same. Liam Fox. I trained as a

doctor here in Glasgow. One of the things that's absolutely true about

the NHS is, that from the beginning we have never really trained enough

doctors given the way that medicine is expanding and the problems

patients are having. We do need to have more doctors and I'm up for

having them if they come from abroad. But wherever they come from,

increasing numbers, it's a pressure. The head of the NHS has a deficit of

2.45 billion pounds. And we send 10 billion to the European Union.

Ladies and gentleman, about 55 people arrived here tonight

undecided. In a second we're going to ask them,

if it's okay with them, if any have reached a decision

on how they're going to vote. You may still be undecided,

and that in itself would be telling. But perhaps you've heard something

tonight from one of our guests, or from a fellow audience member,

that has helped you reach So, if you have made a decision,

please do put you hand up now. Wow. About half of you. Would you

agree? Let me ask you down at the front, what decision have you made

and why? I would like to stay, remain part of the EU. What is it

that you have heard? From question one, that was my mind made up, my

main issue was about jobs. If you had decided to vote the other way,

and you want to tell us why, but up your hand. I don't feel like the

Remain campaign has given an idea of what potential reforms would be if

we were to stay in the EU. It seems all is I'd think reform is heavily

needed in the EU and the remains side don't give us an idea of what

those reforms would be and how long they would take.

And those who are still undecided, what is it that you still need

What assurances do you need to make up your mind? There are a lot of

different things people are saying about the budgets and how much we

give and how much we take out. Nobody has an actual answer to what

the nub is. People say different numbers. We need real, actual

statistics that we can agree on. I hope we get those, but that's just

me being helpful. The debate continues

now on BBC Radio 5 Live Thank you to our politicians

Alan Johnson, Alex Salmond, Thank you to our audience

here in Glasgow and thank you to those

of you watching and listening