The Great Debate Countdown

Welcome to Wembley where 6000 people are waiting inside the arena for the

great BBC referendum debate. I am Jane Hill and in the next hour we

will be counting down to that crucial decision for the UK. Buses

containing representatives for both Remain, including the London mayor

and Leave, including Boris Johnson, have arrived in the last couple of

hours. They are due to face rigorous questioning this evening.

I am the Shell Hussain inside the arena, which is filling up fast.

Soon the entire audience of 6000 will be in place. Join me as we look

ahead to see what the discussion is going to be like.

I am live in the spin room at Wembley Arena where journalists,

commentators and politicians will be putting their gloss on tonight's

debate. That is all coming up here in the

next hour in our countdown to the great BBC debate.

Welcome to Wembley, where in just under an hour, 6000 people will be

in the audience in the biggest debate of this referendum campaign.

It has been quite a day here. The first audience members started

arriving about 11 o'clock this morning. Leading figures from the

Remain and Leave camps, including Boris Johnson the Leave and the New

London Mayor the Remain are among the panellists taking part in this

two-hour BBC debate. The two camps arriving on their battle buses in

the last hour and a half or so. Very much the Final Countdown. Let's

headfirst and hear from some of the people who have been queueing for

many hours to get into the arena. Clive has been out and about with

the crowds. The queue is snaking all the way

around in front of the arena. The first person turned up at 11

o'clock. That is how keen some people are to get their voice heard

in this debate. A few thousand people are already inside. I would

say probably another 1000 also waiting to go in and take up their

seats. Everyone looking forward to the possibility of hearing the real

argument from both the remain and leave camps as to how perhaps they

should be casting their ballot. Let's talk to some of the people in

the crowd. I see from your button you are in. Is there anything

tonight that would convince you to go the other way? Absolutely not. I

am steadfast. Fixed in my view it is the best thing for the UK and for

Europe if Britain remains in the EU. Thanks for joining us. Let's wander

down further. Someone, Britain is stronger in. Let's see who else we

can find. Hello, how will you be voting on Thursday? I will be voting

to remain. Why is that? I just feel on the balance of things, it makes

more sense. On an economic level and how I feel about the world. Thank

you very much. Let's find a few more people who we can talk to. Hello,

how will you be voting? I will be voting to leave. There is a number

of reasons for that. Having an unelected elite dictating your laws

is not acceptable in the modern era. Furthermore, it is not growing

compared to the rest of the world. I am or immigration, but I just think

you have got to control it. It is discriminating in a way, talented

nurses and places like the Philippines and the Caribbean, they

cannot come here. Where is anyone from Europe can. It is time to move

on and be a more free and controlled country. Is there anything you could

hear tonight that might change your mind? I have done two research of --

two years of research. Thank you for joining us. So, all kinds of views

going to be on show. Of course, it is up to the likes of study calm the

Remain and Boris Johnson for Leave, to convince people out here that

there side is the camp they should be in.

We will have more from Clive later. Let's take a few minutes at this

hour to think about what each side needs to achieve tonight in the

great debate. Vicky Young has been monitoring all the events and the

weeks events for many weeks. With so little time left before people go to

the polling station, what do you think each camp will be thinking,

what do they want to achieve? They both think it is close. It is very

hard, the polls, have nothing to judge it against because it is so

long since the last referendum on the EU. Everyone is in the dark. You

can just tell the nerves, from the way they are behaving, they think it

is close. This is a last opportunity to reach, not just the 6000 people

in the audience, but a much wider audience watching on TV and

listening on the radio. It could change minds. People who are still

undecided or could be persuaded either way, it could be crucial for

them, what they hear. It is head-to-head, three on each side.

People will be looking at Boris Johnson. The Leave feel it plays to

his strengths Hannibal get the crowd going and get a good reception. They

need to go beyond that and make sure people are taking in his serious

message. He will say again about taking back control. On the Remain

side, they are very keen to talk about workers' writes. They feel or

dairy people haven't had enough of a say and that is why they have got

Sadiq Khan on the stage, France's O Grady from the TUC, to talk about

and more positive message from staying in the European Union. And

Ruth Davidson, well-known to Scottish audiences, add big chance

for her. I think she will have a go at Boris Johnson. They are both

conservatives but she has been critical of him and his style in the

past. She will have some well rehearsed one-liners to send his

way. Do we have any sense of the proportion of voters who are as yet

uncertain. Those are the people they want to capture, someone who doesn't

know with only 36 hours to go that their votes are up for grabs. David

Cameron coming outside in front of Downing Street saying and talking

about Downing Street, talking about being Prime Minister, trying to get

across to people, probably those he thinks he could persuade to go and

vote Remain. He needs to get them out to vote. He was saying as his

personal experience, sitting inside Downing Street, reading the security

briefings, the security message, saying to people, don't take the

risk. You may hate the EU, he talks himself about being sceptical of the

EU. That is the type of person he is trying to get through to. They say

half Billy McClure most people in the United Kingdom are Eurosceptic,

but half on to say and half want to go. People are suggesting there

could be ten or 15% of people undecided. But those who say they

will vote one way or the other, whether they turn out to vote and

whether they change their mind at the last minute. Let's talk about

turnout, will there be a drive from both sides for what the Americans

call, get out the vote. Encouraging people to go to the polling station

on Thursday. The perceived wisdom, not sure what we basing this on, but

the pollsters suggest a big vote would help Remain. There is a

feeling those who want big change, to leave the EU, have passionately

fought for this for decades. Many members of Parliament on the

conservative side, they are more passionate, more galvanised and they

are more likely to vote because they are voting for change. Where as

voting to the status quo, people might not be as determined to do it.

So the message from the Remain side has been, there are risks if we

leave. We cannot carry on as normal. It is about trying to say to them,

they think there will be a big impact on the economy. That is why

they have been pushing this message. It is clear from the panel tonight

on the Remain side, it is the Labour voters they are concerned about and

that is why we have seen Jeremy Corbyn and other Labour figures out

and about trying to get the message across. There are some on the Remain

side who think it is too late. But it is going to be close. Thank you

very much for now. Let's head inside the arena behind me. We can get more

from Michelle Hussain. Hello and welcome inside Wembley

Arena. I am pretty sure it is the only time in my career I am going to

be able to say I am on stage at Wembley! Welcome from everyone here,

the panel, who I will introduce you to. And the audience, nearly all in

their seats, 6000 people, nearly 50 minutes to go before we begin.

Everyone here is either Leave Remain, but they are mingled. Down

at the other end, that is the main stage where David Dimbleby will be

flanked on one side for this Leave campaign by Boris Johnson, Geisler

Stewart and Andrea led some. On the other side of him for the Remain

campaign, Ruth Davidson, Sadiq Khan and Frances O'Grady. At this end,

this is where I have another panel, this time with five representatives

of each side of the debate, so five levers, five remain as and they will

be reacting to what is said on the main stage, the questions that come

in from the audience on the key issues and the heart of the debate

will be across the room. Let me start by introducing them to you.

Pretty Patel, Conservative MP, employment Minister. Tony Parsons,

Mrs Wright Corp, Diane James, Tim Martin, they are all on the Leave

side. And, Remain, Hamza Yusuf of the SNP. Caroline Lucas, Green party

MEP. Tim Farron, leader of the Liberal Democrats. Justin King who

ran Sainsbury's for ten years and Sarah Wollaston, Conservative MP. A

warm welcome to you all. Sarah Wollaston, what does it feel like,

have you ever played a crowd as big as this? I have never played at

Wembley, great atmosphere. What will it feel like to make your arguments

in a setting like this. Very important, many people still trying

to make up their minds. It is a great opportunity to make our case.

The audience is here in the room, but a massive television audience

watching on BBC One and around the world and on BBC World News. The

complexities of this, pretty Patel. Does this feel different? It is an

important debate. Obviously the British public will decide the

outcome of the referendum, and rightly so. Tonight, it will be an

interesting and lively debate and I think the public at home will be

informed by what they hear this evening. Does it feel different to

other campaign events? Absolutely, this is about the public, it is a

big forum as well. We will be hearing a range of views from both

sides. But outside of here, people like me and the campaign team have

been knocking on doors and getting out and about the country. On this

panel we have politicians and business people as well. Also on the

Leave side, Tim Martin, founder and chairman of Wetherspoon 's. I am

only popular for the beer. The thought did cross my mind. Why do

you want Britain to leave the EU? I think democracy is the key to

prosperity and freedom, including freedom of the press...

??CHEERING AND APPLAUSE The EU is becoming undemocratic and

that is having a bad, economic effect on Greece, Portugal and modes

other EU countries. What of your business, the economic risks and the

livelihoods of the people you employ. Day one of leaving, we will

pay less for food because of the tariff on food from outside the EU.

Most of our wine comes from outside the EU so our customers can look

forward to lower prices and in the shops. Let me see what Justin King,

who ran Sainsbury's for a decade things of that, will we enjoy those

lower prices? Not if we leave, food prices will go up. Because we have,

in the UK, the greatest variety, the best value for money food anywhere

in the world, because we have the best supermarkets who have those

businesses for 40 years trading in Europe. The vast majority of food

comes from the UK and from within the EU. It would be massively

disruptive leaving the EU. CHEERING AND APPLAUSE

Let me get the view of another politicians. Hamza Yusuf,

immigration will come up tonight, your party has campaigned for more

immigration to Scotland? We have to be honest, immigrants and migrants

have contributed more to our society than they have taken out. The

toxicity and the vitriol of this debate needs to be taken out of it.

Look for every Polish plumber in the UK, there is a Brit sunning

themselves in retirement on the Costa Del Sol. There are more

European citizens living in the UK... But they contribute more than

they take out. 10% of all UK doctors are EU migrants. You are more likely

to be treated by in EU Doctor... CHEERING AND APPLAUSE

I am keen to know what Diane James from Ukip makes of that. I didn't

hear the question or the answer, the noise is too much. It is a fantastic

atmosphere, Hamza Yusuf making the point about the contribution

migrants make to the society? The Isner problem with that, but look at

the total cost migrants cost to the economy. Very interesting studies.

UCL claims 20 billion contribution, buried in the annex, 95 Oleon costs.

Didn't want to acknowledge the pressures on hospitals, schools and

infrastructure. If we go to the Australian size system, we can have

the migrants who will contribute and not drain the economy. There are

many other studies and there were figures from the HMRC from a couple

of years ago that showed migrants made a net contribution to the

Treasury. Tim Farron, leader of the Liberal Democrats. How would you

respond. The net contribution to our economy is enormous. I believe, as a

Liberal Democrat, immigration is much more of a blessing than it has

ever been done a curse. One of the worries in this campaign is

migration has been used as a dog whistle to bring out the worst in

our society and I believe Britain is better than that. It is about what

kind of country are we? Are we an outward looking, tolerant, decent

country or are we narrow and small, isolated and fearful of the outside

world. I know what kind of country I want to bring my children up in. I

want to turn to Tony Parsons whose work will be known to many people,

author and columnist. What kind of country do you want? I want our

country to send a cry of freedom that echoes around Europe. The EU

has failed the people of Europe. The currency is kaput, the borders are

kaput. Youth unemployment of 50% in Mediterranean countries... What

about the UK? We are doing God, but we would be doing better if the

people of Europe got their currency sorted out so they could buy our

stuff. It is a 20th-century idea. Although we get derided as little

Englanders, we want to embrace the world, what is wrong with that?

CHEERING AND APPLAUSE Your day job is at Morrisons, but

you're part of Women For Britain under the Leave umbrella. I got

involved because we want a forward-looking, out looking decent

country, but how can we have that if we don't have a fair immigration

system. Why are we ignoring the rest of the world and only saying

European citizens can come here. We need a global response to

immigration. Would you be happy to see greater migration numbers

overall? It is not about that, it is having a fair response and having an

Australian -based points system meaning we can control immigration,

that it can come from all over the world with the right skills. Give

people a chance to have a greater standard of living from around the

world. Just for a final thought, I want to come to the Remain side and

Caroline Lucas. Immigration is something we have heard a lot of

during the campaign from the Leave side, how do you counter that

argument? Freedom of movement is something we should celebrate,

rather than apologise for. The fact we have the right to live, love and

study, work and retire across 27 other countries is a wonderful

thing. Those people coming to our country bring with them and economic

dividend, what I would like to see is the money invested in services in

neglected areas. In particular, in leisure centres, libraries so people

can come together. It doesn't have to be the scary thing the other side

would have you believe. Thank you very much. That gives you a flavour

of what it is going to be like here. Don't forget you can follow the

debate and joint on the hash tag BBC debate, as well as watching on BBC

News and on BBC One from eight o'clock. Jane Hill, back to you.

Many thanks. The very last, I think, members of the audience have just

run into the arena behind me. Just starting to dismantle the barriers.

People arrived so very early. We spoke to the first two people to get

here at 11:30 a.m., a mother and daughter who came from Essex who

wanted to be at the front. So presumably they are right at the

front of the audience inside. The very last few members of the

audience are in. Let's head back into another area here at Wembley.

Clive is now in the spin room, which will be all important later on.

Yes indeed. All the viewers out there, when they turn on the radio

and TV tomorrow, by a newspaper, online, the interpretation of this

debate will have been formulated in this room, the spin room. There are

journalists, pundits and commentators. Later on there will be

politicians, everybody putting their particular gloss on this debate.

Perhaps making it a rosy picture for the Remain side and maybe a rosy

picture for those on the Leave side. Joel Twyman, Owen Bennett and George

Barker. Thanks for being with us. Joel, we know the polls are tight,

how tight are they? Extremely. We have had a little leave the

liam-macro league for both sides. They are neck and neck. These

debates have the potential to change things even with so few days to go.

As in Scotland, people can decide at the last minute. They could be a

massive mistake, there could be a knockout blow. It is unlikely but it

could change things for either side. Both could still win it and they

could win it a night. What do Leave have to do tonight? They need

optimism and any positivity, and brush off the breaking point poster

from Nigel Farage. They need to give the sense that leaving the EU would

be good for the country and keep harking back to the bad things. We

want the good reason to change something. That is what Leave have

to get across. George, what do Remain have to do to convince those

potentially swing voters? You will hear lots of project fear, the idea

of it being a jump into the dark and challenging the Remain side, saying

what would it mean. Then they will take on the argument is that Leave

have been making. Britain will not join in European army, we don't give

?350 million a year and Turkey isn't about to join the European Union. I

was out with the crowds earlier talking to lots of different people.

A lot of people have made up their minds. I found it difficult to find

any undecideds out there, has but being the reading from YouGov? One

in ten people say they are undecided. But it is whether the the

people vote either side, but whether they vote at all. Leave can point to

the 4 million people who voted Ukip at the last election. They will walk

across broken glass to vote Leave. It will be trying to engage them and

getting them off the so for even if it is raining on Thursday. Big

turnout, is the big point in this? You are right, it is whether the

Remain people have the same passion as the Leave campaign. There might

be some people who are shy to say they want to remain. So turnout is

key. I think you will see the big turnout that Leave, it is whether

Remain can come out. The London mayor is on the panel tonight, is it

surprising that it is not Jeremy Corbyn or Mr Johnson from the Labour

Party? They have tried to field clean skins, people you haven't

necessarily heard about, fresh faces. People have been bored with

the same message is being put out by the same messengers. The London

mayor got the biggest turnout and Frances O'Grady, from the TUC and

raised Davidson from the Scottish Conservatives. All three may

surprise. David Cameron wants to avoid a slip-up. I think he thinks

he can win from this position. The fact you have three people you

haven't heard of so much is a less strategy than putting a big name up

like George Osborne. Do you think there has been a sense of, I have

seen it all before, I have heard it all before, I want somebody to take

me down the right path, voters weary of this long campaign? The problem

is, you have a group of people who are bored of things, tiring of what

is my uncertainty is bigger than your uncertainty. But there is a

great that haven't been engaged yet and haven't been interested. The

attempt with these three, new people, if you like, people who

haven't been on the campaign trail in the same way, the attempt will be

to engage people who perhaps haven't been paying attention or have turned

off. And the issues, the economy, got to be big tonight? It is the big

one. Millions of jobs being lost, that figure has been discredited.

When people get in the polling booth, they will be thinking, is it

my job. That is what the Leave campaign have got to paint the

picture of, your job is safe and economy will not take a massive hit.

It will take a small head, it is how long it will last four. They have

got to smooth over that a little bit, but the economy will be a big

issue. The Achilles heel, some suggest that the Remain camp,

immigration? David Cameron hasn't been able to give the right answer

people want to hear. He is bound up by this target of tens of thousands

which is unachievable in the European Union. They will try to

move the argument straight back onto the economy whenever they can. David

Cameron thinks that the economy will trump immigration. There has been

some polling in the past where people have said immigration is the

biggest problem facing the country, but when they get into the polling

booth, they are thinking about their pockets. Is that what could be

happening? Yes, most people say one of the most important issues is

immigration. But when you ask what is the most important issue facing

their family, it comes back to the economy. People are saying I don't

like immigration, not keen on the EU, I don't even like the

government, but is that this like so great I'm willing to risk the

situation. I think some people will change their minds at the last

minute. A lot of people will bottle it and vote Remain. But we will see

and we still have some time remaining. It is very tight indeed.

Elwyn, that sends people might bottle it, it is such a big,

momentous decision the first vote of its kind for longer than a

generation. Do you think people will be conservative in the end and

think, I am not going to go over this? People might look over the

precipice and take a step back. Some of the rhetoric from the Leave

campaign will turn people off. People will get into the polling

booth and think do I want to be associated with people who put out

that immigration poster. It has cast a bit of a shadow over this

campaign. George, those on the Leave side, they are passionate and

committed. I have talked a lot of them today and they really want to

get in, they have an opinion and they want to make it heard on

Thursday. It is quite possible there could be a Leave vote. We haven't

had a referendum like this for over 40 years. The only approximate guide

is the Scottish referendum whether did seem to be a last-minute lean

towards safety and the better the devil you know. I am in the spin

room, so everything they just said could be out of all proportion and

make no sense by this time tomorrow morning. Jane, back to you.

I would have loved to hear what all of your guests were saying, but it

is difficult to hear because there is a van driving up and down the

street playing a very long song -- loud song. Just tell you if you

comments that have come through in the last few minutes from the

European Commission president Jean-Claude Juncker, who has been

speaking in Athens this evening, saying that Britain voting to leave

the EU would be an act of self harm. He said in to turn your back on your

neighbours and retreat into isolation would go against

everything the UK and Europe stands for. He has been talking in Athens.

Upon this, the penultimate day of campaigning, both sides have been

out in force. David Cameron has made a direct appeal to, in particular,

the older generation, to vote to stay in the European Union. He said

they should think about their children and grandchildren when they

go into the voting booth. That came after a former adviser to the Prime

Minister said David Cameron had been told for Magri years ago it would be

impossible to meet the government's migration target. -- four years ago.

When this thing comes out you know it is serious. A battle between

heart to save these, and heads -- a battle between hearts that say leave

and heads that they remain. It'll just be you in that polling booth,

just you making a decision on your future, your children's future and

your grandchildren 's future. It is stronger if we stay. If we leave we

put it at risk. There is no going back. And it isn't just about future

years. Those who want to remain say that the stock market could tumble

if Britain voted out. But a former adviser to the PM says he is

struggling and he knew for Magri years ago that he would never hit

his migration targets by staying in the EU. -- four years ago. They've

lost the argument on immigration. I think that is why they are losing

overall. As we were warned in government many years ago, it was

impossible for the British government to meet its target on

immigration as long as we were in the EU. Leaders believe they are the

ones who draw the crowd. Nigel Farage bee attack on migration

strikes a chord with voters. -- Nigel Farage's attack. This is what

we will be fighting for, getting back the control of our borders, and

easing the pressure on public services. The Labour leader is more

supportive of migration in this campaign than anybody else. I don't

care where a doctor or nurse has come from, high-value their skills,

dedication, and professionalism. Our NHS is an example of what people

working together can achieve. Tonight, the rivals have arrived at

Wembley for a big set piece of the campaign. The BBC's debate. Boris

Johnson might be the leave party's best candidate, and Sadiq Khan for

the other side. We have heard the worries about mass migration. Now it

is about who can reach the heart and mind in the final hours of

campaigning. -- Hart Aitor and minds.

If we wake up on Friday morning to learn that Britain has indeed voted

to leave the EU, what happens after that? Let's ask Rowena Moffat, a

barrister, and an expert in EU law. If that is the case, come Friday,

fair to assume nothing will happen quickly? Exactly. On Friday if we

wake up with a leave vote nothing will happen in legal terms at that

point. Politically that might be a different story, who knows what will

happen. But legally all it will mean is that we will, at some point, be

starting the process, which are under the EU treaties, to leave the

EU. That means that there is an article in the EU Treaty which says

we have two server vindication to leave. -- we have to serve an

indication. There is no way out of that process once that has started.

Is there a time frame for that to happen, does it happen relatively

quickly? There is an outer limit of two years after a negotiation for an

agreement to withdraw. There is an option to extend it. But we are

looking at at least a period of two years. If David Cameron gives the

notification to the EU, he indicated after two weeks if we do. But who

knows what will happen politically, because it is anybody's guess. In

legal terms we have this two year figure. But it is important to say

that it is two years of negotiation. But it will take a longer time to

renegotiate our trading agreements with the EU. For example, the Canada

EU negotiation has taken more than five years. It is going to be a long

process. If it takes five years, for example, does it mean that for those

five years, actually, Britain is still part of the EU? So in terms of

borders, travelling, people coming and going, people going on holiday,

all of those things are not affected, and remain the same? It

depends. It depends on whether the other member states agree on the

extension of the two year period. If they do, and it could take five

years, in legal terms we would remain. It would be difficult to say

it would be business as usual. There would be changed. There would be a

different state of play. If the other EU member states don't agree

to extend the two year period, at that point we would leave the EU

after two years without an agreement, potentially. It is

unlikely that would happen. But it is an option. We would fall back on

residual WTO trading rules and residual domestic immigration law in

the UK and other member states. It is an uncertain process. We have

heard so much in this campaign about trade, the economy, jobs, so all of

those trade agreements that we would have to then strike business we

would need to strike so they can carry on trading, that takes as long

as it takes, as well? Your guess is as good as mine on the time period.

It'll be a long process. Because so much centred on immigration in this

debate, it is unlikely we will become like or Switzerland. It would

mean that we would remain in the same set of rules with regards to

the movement of people. -- Norway also seven. It would be the same.

There is no easy solution if we don't want to have migration as it

remains as it is currently. -- it is unlikely we will become like a

Norway or Switzerland. Touching on some of the key issues of this

there. Those issues are going to make up some of the key issues which

will be debated tonight at Wembley, particularly immigration, business,

and economics. Let's hear more about what might be discussed. Christian

Fraser has been looking at that. As we head into the final frenetic

stages of the campaign we will get more claim and counterclaim. We

thought it would be useful to look in more detail at some of the key

issues. These have been central to the debate. We will start with

travel. Some facts: Let's focus on where the two sides

stand on travel and living abroad... Starting with Remain.

That is the open skies regime which has been negotiated within Europe.

And the recent deal on roaming charges.

A lot of you talked about this, the European health insurance card,

which, at the moment, allows anybody living in an EEC country to get

reduced or free health care abroad. Since we are focusing on laws, let's

turn to the other big theme within this debate, and that is

sovereignty. Some facts: They have to be approved by 16 of

the 28 countries, that is around 65% of the European Union population.

They then have to be ratified and approved by European Parliament.

Again, we will look at where the two sides stand on sovereignty and law,

this time starting with Leave. We have heard from Michael Gove,

Secretary of State for Justice, that there are people he cannot remove

because of EU law. The issue of EU army came up

recently. Just a reminder that if you would

like a great, in-depth look at some of the issues that we are talking

about you can have a look on our website.

This is a shorthand guide to all of the issues and where two sides

stand. Let's head back inside here at

Wembley and get a little bit more from the spin room. Spinning has

already started... Pencils are being sharpened, laptops

at the ready, we have about 20 minutes to go before the big debate.

All of the commentators and pundits and we will get politicians in here

later, they will all be putting their particular loss on tonight's

debate, calling for a particular side, or it might even be a tie. Jim

and Isabel join me here. Isabel, what do the Remain side have to do?

It is safety first for that at the moment. They have drawn level in the

polls as far as we know. What they will not want to do is make any

major slip-ups. The big pitfall for them tonight is on immigration. That

is clearly the weak point for the Remain campaign, the subject they

have been desperate to avoid every time they are asked about it. David

Cameron tries to move the conversation back onto what he feels

is more comfortable ground for him, which is the economy, and that is a

topic the audience will care very passionately about. Add his

arguments are vulnerable on that, I think. What do you think Leave will

have to do tonight to convince some of the people in the audience who

maybe have not made up their minds yet? They have to be careful. They

have to get the timing right, particularly after the news of Jo

Cox. They will have to be careful about the issue of gender,

particularly Boris Johnson. Immigration is something that can be

talked about and it is something their voters will want to hear a lot

more about. Isabel, you said the polls have been tight, that Remain

have got back into the game, are people looking at the polls any

more? Have a moment of pity for us commentators. Really it is all we

have to go on. If you are a politician you are out there every

day talking to people. Particularly if you are moving around the country

like the different battle buses are. Then you have anecdotal evidence. In

the end the polls are all we have by way of science. We know they have

been level. We have to take it with a pinch of salt. I don't think

anybody sensible is making confident predictions at this point. I have

this horrible feeling that whatever happens we are all going to be quite

surprised by it, whichever way it goes. Interesting tonight, we have a

former Mayor of London and the current one on either side of the

debate. This is something we were wondering about. Downing Street was

hopeful that Boris Johnson would the on the side of Remain. -- be on the

side. They will be making pretty much the opposite argument to each

other. The two men, who never went up against each other directly

during the electoral campaign, going up against each other for the first

time. That'll be interesting. What about Sadiq Khan? He is untested on

a platform like this. Leave have worked together on previous

television debates. I think they were impressive as a trio. They will

know a bit about the dynamic between the three of them. That is

important. The chemistry worked well. For Sadiq Khan this is a big

moment for them on such an enormous platform. A huge audience. I am sure

he will be a solid performer. He is an experienced debater. But I think

he is the one who has the less experience of this kind of forum.

You are talking about the ITV debate, of course, where Boris

Johnson, he was there with the others, it seemed to go well then

and that is why they haven't changed the team. Exactly. Both sides in

recent days have been debating amongst themselves as to whether

they need to change the line-up. I know both sides had an opportunity

to change the line-up in the last couple of days. Much thought was

going into whether they have the right balance, the right balance of

men and women, the right types of voices. Subtle things to take into

consideration. Leave clearly decided that these three did well last time.

And it is a great vote of confidence in all three of them they are being

given the opportunity again. One other thing, I would expect with

Davidsson to be very impressive for Remain tonight will stop -- Ruth

Davidson. She has a lot of momentum behind her. If I have to say

something nice about the Remain side it will be her who is earning the

praise. Talking about famous names like Boris Johnson and Sadiq Khan.

Ruth Davidson, she is known nationally, but not in the same way

as the other characters, could that affect the dynamic? Being a fresh

face... She has done a lot for the Conservatives in Scotland. She has

managed to relaunch the party and get new voters they couldn't reach

before. If there is a chance that works north of the border maybe it

could work down here. A lot of people will not know who she is. But

they will see a different sort of conservative and somebody a bit

different. I don't see why that could not work on the rest of the

country. Thank you for joining us. I am now going to take you to two

brothers, Fred and Max Thompson. I spoke to them earlier, one is for

Remain and the other is for Leave. They have a feud debates over the

kitchen table every morning and this is what they have to say. -- few

debates. Just put forward Leave vote... I want to leave because I

think we can begin much better nation if we take a global view. At

the moment we are alienating ourselves and castigating the rest

of the world. If we liberate ourselves from this little European

narrow mindset we are in at the moment, and if we took a global

view, we could be a beacon for people all over the world. Not just

in this insular structure. Little European narrow view. Complete

rubbish. In a globalised world there would be different challenges. We

need to work together with our closest allies. Things like the

fight against global terror and environmental issues can only be

affected by working together. We are clearly safer. I don't understand

the argument to leave, I just don't get it. All of the things you have

just pointed towards, Max, all of those things are challenges on a

global level not just a European level. This is why we need to look

more broadly, not just inside the EU. All of our allies want us to

stay. Where are all of these people we are going to trade with? This is

fear mongering. We can be a progressive nation, looking far

beyond the remit of the EU which is building walls, not just

metaphorically, but physically in some places. We need to expand our

horizons, trade with China, Australasia, not cast these nations

with whom we should be friendly. The whole argument is taking back

control, but we would lose control if we left the European Union. If

anybody was in any doubt that this would be a passionate night, this is

proof that that is exactly what it will be.

CHUCKLES Brotherly love. Clive will have much

more once the debate is over. Today on the penultimate day of

campaigning, as we have been reflecting a lot on, there is more

campaigning under way. Let's remind ourselves of what the Prime Minister

said around lunchtime today. He came out and made a quite personal,

passion and address to journalists, and a personal appeal for the UK to

stay within the European Union. -- passionate address.

I want to speak very directly to those of my generation and older. I

know Europe isn't perfect. Believe me, I understand and I see those

frustrations. I feel them myself. That is why we negotiated and

enhanced our special status. Out of the euro, keeping our borders, not

involved in an ever closer union, we have the best of both worlds. As you

take this decision, whether to remain or leaves, do think about the

hopes and dreams of your children and grandchildren. They know their

chances to work, to travel, to build the sort of open and successful

society they want to live in rest on this outcome. And remember, they

cannot undo the decision we take. If we vote out that is it. It is

irreversible. We will leave Europe for good. And the next generation

will have to live with the consequences far longer than the

rest of us. For the next two days, up and down the country, in homes,

in pubs, in the staff room at work, on the train on the way home, the

conversations will continue, in or out. But on Thursday, those

conversations. Four. -- those conversations are going to stop. It

will be just you in the polling booth, just you making a decision

which will affect your future, your children's future, your

grandchildren's future. I believe deeply from my years of experience

that we will be stronger, we will be safer, we will be better off inside

Europe. To put it as clearly as I can, our economic security is

paramount. It is stronger if we stay. If we believe we put it at

risk. That was David Cameron outside

number ten at lunchtime. And that statement came amid another row

about immigration. It involved the Prime Minister's former adviser, now

Leave campaigner, Steve Hilton. When I spoke to him just a few moments

after David Cameron made that address, he dismissed him and said

that Remain had lost the argument. What you saw from the Prime Minister

is that they have lost the economic argument, they have lost the

argument on immigration, and so he has been wheeled out by panicking

spin doctors, it seems, to change the subject. There was nothing new

in what he said. The argument that we should be a self-governing

country, a government that controls the things that matters to people's

lives, and that is why we need to leave the EU and that is the

argument they are losing and that is what you saw that rather weird

statement from the Prime Minister just now. -- why you saw. Was he

wheeled out as a response to what you have been talking about? Your

contention that he was told four years ago, that the target he put on

immigration simply isn't achievable? I think that's right. It goes to the

heart of the argument in the referendum campaign. We were told by

government officials that if we remain in the EU it would be

impossible to reach the target it promised to deliver to the British

people. If we don't leave the EU you will never have a situation where

the British government actually controls things like immigration and

other economic issues like rules about employment and how we help

businesses. All of those things end up being a horse trading negotiation

with 27 other countries. That means the government of the day cannot

deliver its promises. Is the vote on Thursday, above and beyond anything

else, is it about migration as you see it? Really, if we are being

honest with ourselves as a nation, is this what it is about? It is

about who governs Britain, it is about who is in control of the

things we need to do to create jobs and boost living standards, and

build a better life for the people of this country. Who is in charge of

this stuff? Is it the government people elect in this country, or is

it a group of unelected... -- or is it a group of unelected bureaucrats.

We can get some closing thoughts from our chief political

correspondent who will be watching the debate like the rest of us

tonight. We have herpes comments from Jean-Claude Juncker

-- we have heard these comments from Jean-Claude Juncker.

He said it would be a retreat into isolation. It is interesting the

role European figures have played in this referendum, not a big one.

Partly because Remain have told them to stay clear because they don't

think they can persuade a sceptical UK electorate, people like Angela

Merkel, have played no role in this at all. His comments contrast with

what Donald Tusk has said. He is the ee president. He talked about how

the EU would have to take a long hard look at itself. -- the EU

president. And that you could ignore the statement of negativity coming

from Britain and elsewhere in the European Union. He very much feels

that there is a need for reform whatever the result of this

referendum. Very few interventions from the big figures across Europe,

yes. Let's close this hour by thinking

about what each side feels it needs to accomplish tonight. 6000 people

inside. People watching at home. Interesting that David Cameron has

given an interview to the Financial Times saying that he believes it is

very close. What will they be trying to achieve?

From there on polling, from going around the country, they both

believe this is close. With millions of people watching, with 6000 people

in there asking questions, it is a big moment and a big chance for both

sides to make an impact and persuade people. Those who are undecided.

Those were not determined to go one way or another. They have to make

their argument. Definitely a big moment for the people on the stage,

people like Boris Johnson who have been thrust towards the front of the

campaign, he will be talking again and again about taking control.

Labour figures on the Remain side, including the leader of the Scottish

Conservatives, they are concerned about the Labour vote, trying to get

the vote out for Remain. And the audience, we have seen in much

smaller debates the effect they can have when they raise issues like the

economy, like immigration, their questions can be just as pertinent,

just as important, to the way this debate goes. And there is another

panel of people reacting to what they have heard. People who are not

politicians. People outside business. They will give their say.

There is a broad spectrum of people you will hear from. Voters,

politicians, and business people, too.

Thanks very much. We will let you escape and watch the debate as we

all indeed will now. A build-up to a very big debate. This is the last

key moment, of this election this referendum campaign, days and days

in the planning inside the arena here behind me in Wembley. And now

finally the stage is set. We saw the two camps arrive in the last couple

of hours. The battle buses arrived and the key speakers here tonight

arrived. There were a future years and clapped as both sides emerged

from their battle buses. -- a few cheers and some clapping. Boris

Johnson and his successor, Siddique Khan, on opposing sides. -- Sadiq

Khan.