The Scottish Leaders' Debate

It's an election that will shape Scotland for the next five years.

It's about your community, your family - it's about you.

The battle for votes starts right here.

Hello and welcome to the BBC studios here in Glasgow.

It's the first day of the Holyrood election campaign, and for the first

time in this contest we've brought together the leaders

Debating head-to-head tonight, Nicola Sturgeon

the Scottish Conservatives' Ruth Davidson,

the Scottish Liberal Democrats Willie Rennie,

Patrick Harvie, co-convenor of the Scottish Greens,

and the UK Independence Party's Member

of the European Parliament for Scotland, David Coburn.

You can join the debate using the hashtag #LeadersDebate

We're on air with Radio nan Gaidheal, and there's live reaction

Let's go straight to our first question.

It's from Nick Arthur, a self-mployed businessman.

In what way will the prime lists use tax raising powers to improve the

lives of Scottish people? Nicola Sturgeon? We are putting forward in

this election tax proposals but are fair, balanced, progressive and

sensible. We are going to ask the 10% highest earners in the country

to shoulder a bit more of the burden. We don't think it's right to

do what George Osborne is planning to do, which is to give a very large

tax cut to the best off in our society. We want to use that money

instead to invest in our health service and to protect people

against Tory austerity. Secondly, we want to go further than the UK

Government in raising the personal allowance. We want to raise it to

?12,750 the amount of money you can earn, before you pay any income tax

at all. But thirdly, we don't want to raise the basic rate of income

tax because 2.2 million people are struggling to make ends meet,

shouldn't pay the price of Tory austerity. Taken together, those

proposals with our local tax proposals will help us to raise an

additional ?2 billion over the next parliament that we can invest in

public services, in growing our economy, in protecting disabled and

vulnerable people, and I very much hope continue to make life better

for people across our country. And whoever forms the next government

will have control of all income tax rates and band in Scotland for the

first time from April 20 17. Kezia Dugdale, what would your party do?

Nicola Sturgeon, watch it would do with the powers to raise an

additional money, it's not enough to stop the cuts and end austerity. The

Labour Party is arguing we should put 1p higher than the rate that

George Osborne set on the Scottish basic rate of income tax and if we

did that, we can raise enough money to stop the cuts, to make different

choices from the Tories. One more tax thing we would do, we would ask

the richest up a bit more. ASBOs people who earn ?150,000 a year to

pay a 50p rate. It's something Nicola Sturgeon used to stand for

but it's something the Labour Party will do that together with our tax

raising proposals will raise enough money to stop the cuts and that's

what the vast majority of people want us to do, use the powers, and

Tory austerity and invest in our future in Scotland. Given the

squeeze on public spending, Nicola Sturgeon, why are you prepared to

put a penny on income tax? Why aren't you prepared to put up the

top rate to 50p? Firstly on the basic rate, 2.2 million people

including half a million pensioners pay the basic rate of income tax.

Many of them are still struggling to make ends meet. Household incomes

are under real pressure. I don't think its right to transfer the

burden of Tory austerity onto their shoulders. Rather than do that, I

want the top 10% to shoulder more of the burden, so we are not passing on

that tax cut that George Osborne is proposing. You need to end the tax.

We would protect the 20,000 people who earn under ?20,000 a year from

paying a penny more tax. You have failed to explain how you would do

that. Is the principle of the idea. I disagree with the principle of

transferring the burden of Tory austerity to those who can least

afford it. Kezia Dugdale says she would protect those on low earnings.

How would you do that? We advocated using the rebate mechanism, earning

?20,000 a year would not pay a penny more. How would you do that? What

mechanism would you use? We would more. How would you do that? What

use local authorities, who handle cash, and we have spoken to council

leaders across the country. How you would do it from 2017? 2017? You can

use the powers of the Scottish Parliament to make a difference.

Which power? Substantial new tax and welfare powers. If you were less

than ?20,000 a year, you won't pay a penny more under Labour's proposals.

It's a really important next point. How would you do that? If you earn

?21,000 a year, you might be worried about what you mean for that pocket.

The answer is ?1.80 a week. The choice of not doing that is far

greater. Nicola Sturgeon has ripped ?500 million... Last chance. How

would you ensure that those on lower earnings, less than ?20,000, would

not pay the basic rate? You have new powers in the Scottish parliament

which allow you to set the threshold rate, we would set new thresholds to

protect low-income earners. I don't want people earning ?20,000 to pay

the burden of Tory austerity. I'm saying over ?40,000. The point we

are proposing, it will raise over the next Parliament on additional ?2

billion. Money we can invest in our health service and education, it's

fair and balanced. On the 50p point, let me ask you, a year ago, you less

than a year ago, you were arguing for a 50p top rate of tax. Why not

now, when you are about to inherit the power, should you be re-elected

to introduce that in Scotland? Let me set out the pragmatic reasons

behind the decision. I said we won't do it in the first year we have

powers. I haven't ruled it out for the rest of the parliament. The

reason is I have independent civil service analysis saying it might

lose as ?30 million. Why is that the case? Because until evolution,

unlike under independence, yes, we will get the power to set the tax

rate but we don't get the power to set the rules on tax avoidance --

devolution. I've said if I am re-elected as the First Minister

Council of economic advisers to look at this on an annual basis, to see

if we can find ways of mitigating that risk. I think there should be a

50p top rate of tax, but you don't set tax rates if it's going to lose

you money. I don't want to turn around... And say we've got less

money to spend on our health service. Let's hear from the

Conservatives' Ruth Davidson. She has wanted to make Scotland the

highest taxed part of the UK and the opposition wants to take money off

working Scots. We have a principle, we don't think people in Scotland

should have to pay more tax than the rest of the UK and we don't think

it's good for Scotland either because we don't believe hanging a

sign at the border that face higher taxes here encourages the growth or

investment all the jobs that we need to properly fund our public services

in Scotland. We want to make sure we're not taking ever more money for

government. We want to make sure that people like Nick, who asked the

question, who works hard running his small business, have their pay

APPLAUSE APPLAUSE

. You want to restore prescription charges and charge people to go to

university. That's Tory policy at this election. Willie Rennie. What

we have heard from Ruth Davidson is her backing of George Osborne's tax

we have heard from Ruth Davidson is plan. She wants to give a tax cut to

the wealthiest in society. I want to make a transformational investment

in education. Scottish education is to be one of the best in the world.

Now it's slipping down the rankings. It is an urgent situation. We need

to invest ?475 million in education for nurseries, for schools and for

colleges, to get Scottish education racing back at the International

league table. I would not ask for this investment if it wasn't

incredibly important. Not just to give kids a chance in life that they

deserve, but also to get the economy working again. We've got huge skills

gap in the economy. We need to make that investment, to have that

transformational change. That's why it's a penny on income tax for

education. It's a penny on all bands, including the basic rate,

which is paid by people with relatively modest incomes. Nobody

earning under ?19,000 would pay a penny more in income tax. The

differences, because Liberal Democrats and government at

Westminster, we advanced the raising of the tax threshold and because of

that raising of the tax threshold now to ?11,000, nobody will pay a

single penny more Hang on a minute. Over ?19,000, can I answer the

question, over ?19,000, you would in turn, pay a single penny more.

Increase the personal allowance. This is the way to make it

progressive. You give with one hand and take it away with another hand.

You seem to be... Listen... Hang on a second, if you talk over one

another nobody at home can hear and they will switch off. Patrick

Harvie. Thanks very much, I fear the next six weeks we are going to hear

a lot of people talking over one another. I'd like to bring this to

some key principles about what we should be looking to achieve for our

society, with the tax powers we have got. The tax powers that are coming

and the tax powers we have had since 1999, the ability to set local tax

policies, to fund the local services that so many people rely on, and

we've not really used those. So we have to be ready to scrap the

council tax, as Nicola has campaigned many times over, it's

time to kill off the council tax. It's more than 25 years out of date.

We also need to join that with the national tax powers that are coming.

Set out your proposals, are you in favour of raising tax, using the new

powers? Reducing tax, leaving it broadly the same? We certainly need

to raise the revenue to prevent the cuts. I am Rhoose and Kezia and

Nicola and Willie and David should all be paying more tax, not just

people on ?150,000. We are on high salaries, that these people are

paying for from their taxes. People on our salary should pay more tax.

We need to close the wealth gap as well as the income gap in order to

APPLAUSE APPLAUSE

. We don't want Scottish taxes to be higher than in England, or I have --

higher at all. I'd like to see Scots paying in Scotland and building

businesses and employing Scots. Jobs is the thing we require and we won't

do that if we keep frightening people off and telling them, you are

a bad person, you are making money. We should encourage people to make

money and to invest in businesses and to create jobs for other people.

What these people are all suggesting that slid nonsense. You will scare

people off. This country needs jobs. Ruth Davidson' Davidson's party says

tax in Scotland shouldn't be higher than the rest of the UK, that's what

you have said? The Conservatives are forever promising lower taxes and

never give them. We need taxes that are fair to give as good social

services, we must have good social services and good health service but

we would let -- must make sure that Scotland's taxes are not higher than

the rest of the UK because one thing governments have learned, if you put

taxes higher everybody else you are not competitive, people will leave.

Let's hear from our audience. Gentleman in the middle with the

pink tie? Ukip and the Conservatives are quite right, we have a ?10

billion debt and it's getting worse. If we don't attract investment, we

will never get out of the mess. How are you going to do that, when you

get more money in England than up here? It's counter-productive. OK.

The lady on the front row there, then at the back? Lady on the front.

Yes, when the 40p rate was introduced about 30 years ago it

applied to about one in 20 people, but obviously over the years wages

have risen and it now applies to one in seven people, so a lot of people

that fall into that 40p bracket are people like firemen, policemen,

nurses. Do you support the raising of the threshold for paying the 40p?

I do, and we should increase everybody's tax by 1p, as we have

such a deficit, the highest in Europe, and we have to decrease that

deficit somehow. We can't keep putting money into education and

health if we haven't got the money. The gentleman at the back? Surely

the point isn't whether it's a penny or a pound in the tax, whether it

the richest going to take the burden on, they are targeting their own

people here. We should be looking at people who got the country into the

mess in the first place, that is whether taxes are coming from and we

are wrong to start to look at ourselves, whether it's a penny or

whether it's a pound, whatever, the people yet again have been asked to

carry the burden. Kezia Dugdale. Why do we want to put up tax? The

Labour Party wants to use the powers to invest in education so we can

bring jobs to the country. We can't compete with other European nations

and other countries around the world on low skills and low, insecure

work. We have to get high skilled jobs here which is why we have to

invest in education to Michu everyone in the country can fulfil

their potential. The 50p policy we have advocated is specifically for

education. I can't believe that Nicola Sturgeon, who's made her name

as a great socialist and crusade against austerity is standing here

tonight, making the excuse that she won't introduce the 50p tax rate

because rich people might avoid paying it. Why is it one rule for

her and one rule for everyone else? Ruth Davidson does not want to

introduce the 50p tax rate either. The lady in the front row talks

about people being dragged into the The lady in the front row talks

higher 40p rate and according to the ONS, it is one in ten nurses, a

quarter of schoolteachers and a third of police officers in the UK

that pay that rate. That was never what it was designed for. What you

are going to be asked to do on the 5th of May is decide who's going to

be the government and the opposition of this country. What we have got at

the moment, somebody saying let's put up taxes and someone saying,

let's put them up even higher. Wouldn't it be good having some in

their saying let's drag the country and the parliament back to the

centre, not ever further to the left? APPLAUSE

Do you seriously think you could leapfrog labour in this election?

It's entirely up to the people at home but there's a vacancy in this

country for a strong opposition that told the government of the day

account. In nine years and six leaders, I don't think the Labour

Party has laid a glove on the SNP. With Davidson is talking about

public sector workers in the middle income bracket but she has told you

that if we don't make every choices to what the Tories are doing down

south, we will lose tens of thousands of public sector jobs. We

have lost 4000 teachers already under the SNP. What about the point

about opposition? Are you worried the Conservatives will beat frog

you? We have Bush the SMB to be bolder and more progressive at every

stage. The Tories want to do less. stage. The Tories want to do less.

-- pushed the SNP. I want to make this country fairer and will equal

and I believe the Labour Party has the valleys to do that. I don't want

to be in opposition, I want Nicola Sturgeon's desk and serve this

country as First Minister. You can have the desk but you can't have the

job! We are in Glasgow today and there are 30 employees on Glasgow

City Council on over ?100,000 annual salary and five employees on more

than ?150,000. Before we start raising more taxes from poor people

all for people who don't have a lot of money or from many middle-class

people in this country, we are one month away -- who are one month away

from the mortgage default, before we ask them for more money, we should

get rid of the Council by games and make sure we get value for money for

the rates we pay. We need to raise more revenue to protect public

services... ?150,000? The question is how we do that? I will be asking

people earning over ?43,000 to pay precisely ?300 more than they would

if they got George Osborne's tax-cut. Ruthie is wrong to say that

would put people off coming to Scotland because Scottish taxpayers

get lots of things for their taxpayer money that taxpayers in

England don't get. It goes to university, so their child can get

free tuition. Why are you being far more timid on tax as First Minister,

who wants to keep that going than more timid on tax as First Minister,

you were as Leader of the Opposition, in the Westminster

election less than 12 months ago? I've got Ruth Davidson saying I'm

taxing rich people too much, Kezia Dugdale saying we are not taxing

poor people enough. I think that says to me we are probably in

exactly the right place in this election.

exactly the right place in this Enough of the noises off, David. I

want to hear from Willie Rennie. The implication from the question in new

audience was that somehow modestly increasing taxes by 1p in the pound

on all the rates will have a dramatic impact on investment in the

economy. I can tell you what will have a dramatic impact on the

investment in the economy, is not having the skills for businesses to

fill the jobs, to create the growth, and create the wealth and the taxes.

It is a virtuous circle. That is why we need to invest. It is a measure

that will be required to have a transformational effect. If we don't

do this, there will be large sections of society that will not

participate in the economy. I want them to be trained and

participating. There are many businesses that don't have the

skills they need. I want them to have the skills. I'm going to bring

in two more voices from the audience and then we will bring in Patrick

in two more voices from the audience Harvie. The gentleman in the

stripey, purple shirt. Are there no mechanisms now to create new taxes?

You talk about tax avoidance but how much was Amazon given to open their

You talk about tax avoidance but how building? What kind of tax policy

would you favour? I would go with Willie Rennie or Kezia Dugdale, add

1p. And this gentleman? We have got was current account deficit in

Europe, 9.7% and it will be higher was current account deficit in

next year because we have less oil revenue and 1p on the income taxed

only raises ?500 million. The big issue is we are going to run out of

money and be the laughing stock of the world. With our deficit. We have

money and be the laughing stock of got a real problem. I want to know

how we are going to reduce the deficit of the country. The whole of

the UK? Scotland. Patrick Harvie is the only one who has not spoken.

There's a connection between those two. The economy as the hole and the

public sector books would be a lot healthier if we did force big, tax

dodging companies to pay their fair share. At the moment, I'm afraid in

Scotland, we are still giving them grants and access to tax payers

money to do what they do. The thing is, for most of my lifetime, we have

had an economic model, I call it the failed economic model, the outgoing

economic model, which is about lower taxes, lower taxes, lower taxes,

governments skewering their citizens with arguments about tax competition

and big business is so clever and we need to attract it or they will go

away. The result of that is chronic inequality both in incomes and in

wealth. We have got people working every hour they can get. The system

from Holyrood? We need to have boldness and the courage of our

convictions in Scotland to take the economy in a different direction,

now we have the powers to do it. We need to do that with the tax system

and also with public investment in priorities like housing and energy

and infrastructure, which it takes the public purse to invest in. The

and infrastructure, which it takes market will not do it for us. Ruth

does not want a sign on the border saying Scotland is closed for

business. I don't want a sign on the border saying Scotland, the country

that trashes its public services. That is the choice we have to make

at this election. That is the choice we have to make

There will be a massive flight of capital if we followed your model.

What is to stop people registering again south of the border? They have

a lot of clever accountants and clever people and they are not going

to sit there and be plucked by Kate to sit there and be plucked by Kate

-- plucked like a chicken. They will move their business to another part

of the UK or another part of the world. Get real! Another couple of

points from the audience, this lady in the middle. That is the same old

scaremongering from Ukip. People should not be scared by that. They

have to be prepared to pay for a should not be scared by that. They

good standing of living and for good services. We can't have the SNP

scared to put up taxes, council tax frozen for a decade, everything has

to be paid for. And a voice from up the back, the gentleman in the

glasses, in the middle. Where does Patrick's dreamworld exist? LAUGHTER

I'm going to move on... We have a challenge in investing in

sustainable industries at the moment... You have had your say and

we are going to move onto another question which is related to the new

powers Deborah Torrence, who is a digital artist. -- from Deborah

Torrence. If elected, what are your party's plans to mitigate the

upcoming changes in welfare that are going to hit Scotland? The welfare

system is operated UK wide and again, from next year, Hollywood

will have ?2.5 billion, maybe a bit more, worth of welfare powers

including the devolution of some specific benefits. What would you do

with that lot, Ruth Davidson? One of the things we have already talked

about is changing the rate of carers allowance. We don't think it is

right it is less than jobseeker's allowance and we would put it up. We

are also looking at when disability benefits are devolved, we see that

the PIP has been in unused. The personal independence payment,

replacing a bundle of benefits. To help people have more independence,

we are looking to devolve that down to closer to where people need it.

One of the submissions of Lee Smith Commission, looking at how we use

the new powers, came from the Scottish local authorities who said

it would be better because we are bringing health and social

get-together, that we brought it closer to people themselves, whether

that is through the health board model or local authorities or

that is through the health board through a health and social care

partnership. That is some thing we want to see developed. Willie

Rennie? I think actually, some good work has been done by the SNP

government. I don't often say that but there has been some good work.

They have reached out and engaged with civic Scotland and developed a

I think, which involves dignity at the heart of it, which is accessible

and a fair service but also suited to people's needs in Scotland which

is the whole purpose of devolving this new, Scottish welfare fund for

the first time, ?3 billion. But there's UK wide pressure on welfare

spending, and attempt to cut that. The question was, what would your

party do with the new powers to mitigate it? I was just coming to

that. In terms of the Terra's benefit, we need to bring that up to

the level of jobseeker's allowance. I think we need to make sure that

the bedroom tax is abolished altogether. We are mitigating it

just now but it needs to go altogether. Yes, we are mitigating

it in Scotland, that's correct. We also need to make sure that the work

programme and work choices, the new, devolved employer ability schemes,

are working well and in partnership with colleges and councils. Those

are the powers we've got and the changes I would like to make. David

Coburn. The country's only as good as they hold Garrett gives and I'm a

great believer in health care, my family worked for the health care

system. My father was a pharmacist. I very much care about that and I

want to see good use of public money. It is not just a question of

throwing money at things. It is a question of how you use the money. I

think there's an awful lot of wasted on back-office staff and not enough

on front office. We're not talking about the NHS specifically by the

new social welfare powers. Does Ukip have a policy for the welfare

powers? Yes and my biggest worry is the TTIP contract. We not talking

about the NHS or about TTIP. But that perfect fit. With respect, the

question was about the new welfare powers coming to the Scottish

parliament. Does Ukip have Dolgov the? We want to spend more on

health... Welfare, not health! We want to spend it on the front

office. I think the answer to your question is no, they don't! We don't

want to spend ?150,000 on salaries for council staff. That's an awful

lot of money. I want to see the money used properly, not in more

bureaucracy. I want to see it used on nurses. At the moment... 100,000

have applied to be nurses... Like I say, we're going to move on, I'm

still not clear what your policy is say, we're going to move on, I'm

but you are out of time. I want to bring back in our question, Deborah.

I don't know if you can tell us more about your own circumstances and

what you are concerned about? Of course. The Tories backtracked on

the personal independence payments recently. But we are still going to

be impacted by them when the ELA... The disability living allowance, one

of the benefits being devolved. Is a massive difference between being

able to walk 50 metres and 20 metres. That is still going to

impact a lot of people in Scotland, people who will end up losing their

motor ability vehicles, losing their legs, essentially. -- that assisted

vehicles. When I listen to what Ruth was saying about what he wanted to

do, you have got a bit of a cheat, considering all the cuts that are

happening right across Social Security...

happening right across Social I'm going to let Ruth Davidson

answer that and then bring in someone else. Firstly, looking to

the long-term, we are trying to get more people into work than ever

before including the people furthest from the jobs market and often, that

has been people who have had disability ability than difficulties

and we're doing that. Where I think the UK Government has gone wrong and

I spoke up at the weekend and I believe the changes are not going

ahead, the changes were not about cuts, they were about cutting the

amount of increases. We have increased the amount being spent

down south and across the UK on disability. So when Iain Duncan

Smith resigned from the government and his resignation led to

suggestions the government might be giving the impression that we are

not all in this together, was he right? I thought the way in which

they were going about it was wrong and I said that at the time... Know

you didn't! When? You did not say that the cuts... It on the record,

you can go up and look at it. After the event! I think that the

long-term goals and aspirations of the UK Government to get more people

into work right. Some of the short-term changes they have made

have hit the people they want a lot. Which ones would you reverse? I

already spoke about tax credits and at the weekend and about PIP. When

these are coming, this is what we should be talking about, how we use

them and do them and I think there's a different way of using PIP and the

whole point about it, PIP, is having a personalised service for

individuals which is better worked out at a local level when you are

using the carers and users. Last year, the budget went wrong over tax

credit and you criticise George Osborne for that and

retrospectively, you're criticising him for what he was planning to do

disability. Have you lost confidence in the Chancellor? Absolutely not,

he's got the country back contract, we are the fastest-growing economy

in the G7. So he is right and wrong, is that right? There's more people

in work than ever before, we are the fastest-growing economy in the

world, of any major nation and you see other countries who were in much

world, of any major nation and you better position than us who are in

much worse positions now. I want to concentrate on the

question, Nicola Sturgeon, what would you do for Debra? When we get

the powers, which would probably be 2018, we will aid -- establish our

own Social Security agency so we are less reliant on the Department for

Work and Pensions, which sanctions people more than it supports people,

we will abolish the bedroom tax. Willie's party helped the Tories

introduce the bedroom tax. We will set up a new maternity and early

years allowance. I'm coming on to disabled, to help with child

poverty, and we will maintain, not cut, support for disabled people. I

think the Tory treatment of disabled people has been absolutely and

utterly disgusting. It is scandalous.

APPLAUSE APPLAUSE

. And Ruth Davidson... I'm no fan... I'm no fan of Iain Duncan Smith, but

at least he found it within himself to resign over the cuts to Pip. Ruth

Davidson said nothing. She went into hiding, she sat silent. She has also

made her views clear this evening. But what I'm interested in is what

you would do for Deborah. You said you will maintain spending on

disability benefits. What do you mean by that? I don't think there

should be any further cuts to disability benefits. First of all

we've got to stop the cuts, yes, I would like to see us get into a

position where we are more supportive of people with

disabilities, for example when the Tories abolished the Independent

living fund, we got the power over that. We didn't abolish it, we

protected the Independent living fund, and we added an extra ?5

million to the Independent living fund. No further cuts to disability

related benefits if you are elected. Absolutely, I don't believe we

related benefits if you are elected. should be trying to balance the

books on the back of disabled people. That's a fundamental belief

of mine. The Labour Party's proposals are similar to the SNP's.

We have talked about abolishing the bedroom tax, using the new maternity

grant to help struggling moderns. One idea is a bit different to the

SNP, about having a new employment agency in Scotland. We will get

powers over the work programme. I think we can do a lot better than

without them we have seen the UK Government operate. We can have an

agency in Scotland that helps people get into work and those people in

work get on in work and that has to help people with disabilities get

the support they need to take a full part in employment Handley decent,

fulfilled lives and that's what we would do. To move on, Patrick

Harvie. On some of those specific points you will find there is a lot

of consensus in most of the political parties in the Scottish

parliament anyway. But we also need to ask ourselves what the welfare

state was for. I think it's inspiring what the post-2nd World

War generation did, in creating a welfare state, and it's nothing less

than a tragedy that it's been turned into something now whose purpose

seems to be to bully people into low-paid work, subsidised that

low-paid work and devil take the hide most for those who cannot work

or can't find enough work. hide most for those who cannot work

would The Greens do for Deborah? Our long-term goal is a citizen's

income, a basic income for everybody, giving everybody the

ability to balance paid work, volunteering, recovering from

illness and creative work. It allows people to make that judgment. It

values a great deal of work which is critical to our economy, which is

not currently paid, and allows people to make their own choices. We

can't get there in one single bound and I wish to goodness the Scottish

Parliament was getting the ability to find all of its welfare policies

because to invest in the support that people need, whether because of

disability or anything else, to participate in our economy or

society, it's not a cost, it's an investment in a stronger, more

decent society. Thank you. APPLAUSE

Another question, from Ritchie, I high school student. How are you

going to improve education funding for young people, particularly from

deprived areas in Scotland? Willie Rennie. I've already set out that we

deprived areas in Scotland? Willie think there should be a

transformational investment in education, a penny on income tax to

invest, to make sure that our education system gets right back up

there again. What we are proposing also is that packages to make sure

that we invest in nursery education, because nursery education is the

best educational investment that we can make. Kids, by the time they get

a primary school, the kids from the poorest backgrounds are already

about a year behind those from their well off counterparts. Is a lot of

talk about the attainment gap and one measure of that, one statistic

that helps to illustrate that, is that people from the wealthiest

parts of Scotland are three times more likely to get five Highers when

they finish their secondary education than those from the

poorest parts of Scotland. What would you do to close that gap? I'm

explaining that process. Because there's a gap already when they go

to primary school, that widens as they go through the school. That's

why we need to invest in a pupil premium, so you have nursery

education to start off with to get them at the educational performance,

then when they go to school they get prebuilt premium to give them

further direct support from those kids from disadvantaged backgrounds

to give them extra help so they can achieve more, so by the time they

get to high school, with that extra support they've got a chance of

going to university or to college, and that's what the final piece of

going to university or to college, the jigsaw comes in. Because we've

seen under Nicola's government there is 152,000 places being cut from our

colleges. I want to change that. I want to invest ?108 million back in

our colleges to take it back where it started and then we are creating

opportunities for everybody at every level of education so we can get

Scottish education back up to being the best in the world again.

APPLAUSE Kezia Dugdale. The Labour Party

wants to close the gap between the richest and poorest kids in the

country, not because it's what we must do to have a more socially just

society, we have to do it for economic reasons otherwise the world

is going to passers-by and all those high school -- high skilled jobs of

the future will go to other countries because we haven't been

able to give the best possible education to fulfil the best

possible start in life. In the newspaper this morning there was a

story about Scotland having the highest dropout rates of any of the

four nations when it comes to universities, so because we have

kept education free of Scotland, Nicola Sturgeon has cut the

bursaries for the poorest students by a third and we are seeing the

reality today, people from the poorest third dropping out of

university. It's bad for equality and bad for our economy as well. I

will come to the audience in a moment, Nicola Sturgeon, the cuts

that Kezia Dugdale has accused you of making. The dropout rate from

universities is too high, but it's dropped over the time we've been in

government from 9%, took 6%. I want to get it further down than that.

This, I hope, will be one of, not one of the defining issues of the

next Parliament, it's certainly my biggest priority if I'm re-elected

as First Minister. If there was one measure of that after the next five

years should you continue in control, how would we know that you

had done it question might I'm going to start publishing greater

information than has ever been published before about the

performance of schools. You've had it for years. You will be able to

judge whether or not we are succeeding, but let me tell you what

I will do to try to do it. Respond to Kezia Dugdale, I'm going to bring

in a lady on the front row. I've heard Nicola Sturgeon say that

spending on the NHS will rise over and above inflation, but will she

and the rest of the panel make the same commitment to education? OK, I

will try to come back to that, certainly with Nicola Sturgeon. The

lady in red? As a high school teacher and someone who has

obviously taught across the education systems around the world,

my question to you is what you're actually going to do to help raise

attainment in school as Wash that actually going to do to help raise

support students in the school, because we keep talking about

supplying funding that doesn't actually supply extra staffing or

support to help those students with difficulties or gaps that come from

their backgrounds. I will let you pick up on those. That's a fair

point, in terms of what we will do, we will continue to expansion --

continue the expansion of childcare we have seen in the past five years,

we have expanded it and wanted a bullet in the next five years,

because the education we give our youngest children is the best

foundation. Secondly, we have set out plans to invest in additional

?750 million directly in our schools, to help close the

attainment gap, money that doesn't get filtered through different

governments, but actually goes direct to headteachers to allow

headteachers to employ more staff, or to take whatever steps they think

is important to get attainment up. That's been the whole thrust of our

attainment challenge that we set up. You say you are open-minded about

the future of education, should some schools be run outside local

authority control? I want to see more money get direct to

headteachers, so I don't want to see it being always filtered through

government. That's why the money I've spoken about, we are going to

get direct into schools, because what I want to see is schools and

teachers and head teachers in schools much more empowered to do

teachers and head teachers in what they think needs to be done, to

raise attainment. The third point I want to make is about higher

education. We have seen a growth in the number of young people from

deprived communities going to university, but I want there to be

an equal chance to go to university regardless of your background. I'm

going to widen access and keep education free. I think there's an

issue about resource and we are increasing resource, we know there

is ?650 million more coming to Scotland as part of last week's

budget than otherwise, we would use about half of that on schools. There

would be more money for councils. We would ask Nicola for many months

now, the ?160 million should follow the pupil, not be give it up between

local authorities and I'm glad that's finally changed. Funding and

resources part of it. The other parties leadership in schools. There

was a report out that showed the two best schools for Highers in Scotland

are in Glasgow, one of them is Jordanhill, one is that Gaelic

school. One is local authority, one is not local authority, it's not

about the structure. They are both unique schools because they're

headteachers are allowed to do things differently. They know what's

best for their pupils, so what we want to see is a much greater

empowerment of our teachers and school leaders and educational

leaders, to be able to do things differently because they know better

than anybody on this panel what is best for their children and their

pupils. APPLAUSE

David Coburn. Various sectors for Scotland, both Labour and

Conservative, conspired together to destroy what we had in Scotland so

the best schools we had, some of them went private and now people

have to put in a great deal of effort to send their children to a

school that puts many families in a very poor position. I believe we

should have grammar schools, where every child should have the chance

to get ahead, regardless of their financial situation, or where they

are in society. I want to see grammar schools that go for

excellence and want people to strive. I also want to the technical

schools in the German model for those who are not academically

inclined, a different way of looking at things. And pushed for time. We

used to have the best education system in the world, it's been

ruined by all this lot and we need something different. The

Conservatives were just as bad at destroying grammar schools. All

political parties that you should take seriously at least have

recognised that there is, ... APPLAUSE

There is more to deliver investment specifically enclosing the

attainment gap and to credit Scottish Government with knowledge,

it can be done better than it has so far so we are going to see progress

on this in a new parliament. But my concern is that simply talking about

that additional funding, about closing the attainment gap, if we're

doing that at the same time as local councils are losing their revenue,

then schools like every other public service will continue to be under

pressure and they won't be able to get the maximum impact of that

additional resource and I think schools also have coped with a great

deal of change already. Schools and teachers that I've spoken to around

the country when I've been out visiting local branches, they've

been talking about the amount of change they've had to deal with, the

amount of time pressure they've been under, to cope with that change.

Schools and teachers need to feel supported to do what they are doing.

Hang on a second... Not that standard light -- standardised

testing should be the priority. I want to talk about more money in

schools, you've been talking about investment quite a lot tonight. Is

there an amount of additional revenue that you want to raise with

whatever tax package you come up with during the election campaign?

Do you have an amount of money that is needed for the investment that

you are promising tonight? We will be publishing our detailed tax plans

next week. How much do they need to raise in addition to what the

Scottish Government? The point at local level is no, central

government should not tell local government how much money they are

allowed to race. In most European countries, a central government

finance minister would find themselves in court and losing if

they tried to tell local councils how much tax they are allowed to

raise. I want to move onto another question now, but I should say that

if you intend to cast a vote for the question now, but I should say that

Scottish Parliamentary elections on the 5th of May, then you must be

registered to so. The Electoral Commission,

who have responsibility for elections, advise that it

only takes a few minutes and like everything else these days

it can be done online. The address to go to is at

the bottom of your screen. Another question from Mark, a

consultant and author. When push comes to shove, will you support

fracking or not? Ruth Davidson. We believe local authorities should be

able to look at the planning of this but we think we should have a mixed

energy policy which involves nontraditional gas extraction. We

have the best safety regime anywhere in the world, that we developed in

the North Sea for getting gas out of the ground. It is a low carbon

energy fund with 65,000 people that have just been laid off from the

north-east, some of whom can be used in this. We think as long as you

have the best safety rules in the world, it can help contribute to the

energy mix, so yes. APPLAUSE Willie Rennie? No, absolutely, we

need to start meeting our climate change targets. We have set some of

the best climate change targets in the world. Some of the world beating

climate change targets were made here. But in the last four years, we

have never met them. What we should not be doing is taking more carbon

out of the ground. We should be investing instead in advancing

renewables, which Ruth Davidson's government has cut. Let's pause for

a second because that is you well know is not what delegates to your

conference said a couple of weeks ago. They voted to lift the current

conference said a couple of weeks moratorium, the temporary ban on

fracking will stop why the flip-flop? -- fracking. In our

manifesto, it will be clear that we are not in favour of fracking. The

party members must be pretty fed up with that. We can have a discussion

about the internal machinations if you like... So it does not matter

what they say? I'm quite happy to talk about that in another

discussion but I want to talk about fracking. You have overruled them.

I'm the leader of the party and I have set the policy and I don't want

to advance carbon -based technologies, in energy generation,

any more than we are doing just now. We have worked to invest in

renewables and I want to meet the climate change targets. How can we

trust you on that because the Lib Dems have a credibility problem

since they went into coalition and ditched the pledge to scrap tuition

fees. How do we know when you say, no fracking, you mean it? You gave

it the green light in the energy Department. We're not going to that

mistake again. -- to make that mistake again. We are prioritising

renewable technologies. That is what we did in the Department of energy

at Westminster. That is the priority for the Liberal Democrats because we

want to meet our climate change obligations. David Coburn? Today,

ladies and gentlemen, they closed long panic power station and out we

have to rely on lots of renewable energies, some of which are not

reliable. When the wind does not blow, how do we generate

electricity? Wait for the lights to go off, not in the distant future.

We have a lot of cheap coal underneath us and cheap oil. Let's

use it. I don't see why we should have expensive energy which

pensioners can't afford and steelmakers can't afford. No

environmental health concerns? I think we should use the latest

technology to clean the coal and also the oil. We should use high

technology to make sure that those fossil fuels emit the least possible

pollution. But we can't just simply switch off and leave the world. If

you listen to Patrick... Let's listen to Patrick Parfrey if we get

the chance. Who would like to hear from Patrick Harvie? CHEERING AND

APPLAUSE Let me just put it this way...

David, you have had you all go and I've introduced Patrick Harvie. The

reality which governments around the world have finally come to

acknowledge although they are not yet doing enough about it is that

the fossil fuel age is coming to an end. You don't have to like that and

you don't have to have chosen it. You don't have two of been

you don't have to have chosen it. campaigning on this issue for years.

It's a reality and the mantra of maximum fossil fuel extraction,

which these parties all support, is not even keeping people's jobs safe.

The challenge is to invest in the alternative. We have far more fossil

fuel in the ground globally than we can ever afford to burn. We need to

be investing in the long-term alternatives. Shouldn't we be

looking at this as part of an energy mix, given that we're no longer

burning coal and given that the North Sea industry as shared so many

jobs, some of which might be able North Sea industry as shared so many

pick up new work in the fracking industry? A great many of the people

working in that area can see positive, long-lasting, secure

futures from renewable energy and electricity storage. And also gas

decommissioning. We're already at risk of losing oil and gas jobs to

companies in other countries. We should be securing them here.

Fracking is an absolute know from the Green party. But I do hope the

Scottish .net will include say it too. We will come to the SNP and

Labour in a moment but a few thoughts from the audience before we

do that. The gentleman there? Surely thoughts from the audience before we

an increasing number of countries across the world are banning

fracking? Canada, France, Germany, Bulgaria, many US states. There's

lots of research to show how damaging it is, not only the carbon

gases that were already there, but also leakage of methane and lots of

research on this. Surely people are running scared when Grangemouth say

they might close down and you can see that as a loss of votes but the

sensible way is surely to ban it and move on? APPLAUSE

Kezia Dugdale. I think people at home will expect their politicians

to follow the evidence and the science and the science tells us

that the last thing we need, when we face the travesty of climate change,

is another fossil fuel. Now we have the power in Scotland to ban

fracking, the Labour Party would use it, no ifs, no buts, no fracking

with Scottish Labour. Kezia Dugdale talks about following the evidence,

which has shown that not only in America, as fracking reduced energy

bills for homeowners by a half... What about climate change? It has

also brought down carbon emissions because it is a much lower carbon

technology than things like old. I think it is up to local authorities

to decide on the own planning, whether to allow it or not but as

long as we have the safety regime in place and as long as local people

are happy with it happening, then place and as long as local people

this can absolutely help wing down fuel poverty in this country. The

other thing you rely is slashing the renewable energy budget in the UK.

We have devastated the industry. I think that is a shamefully

Conservatives after the good work we did in coalition to advance that.

You too can finish this outside but I want to live on Nicola Sturgeon,

given the concerns raised, why do you not allow a ban? Let mix by new

position, there is no fracking allowed in Scotland might now

because we put in place a moratorium. My view is unless it can

be proved beyond any doubt that fracking does not harm the

environment, does not harm our health, does not harm our

communities, then to answer Mark's Western, no, fracking should not be

allowed at all. Why we have got the moratorium in place -- Mark's

question for the are you advertising for decommissioning jobs in an

industry that does not exist? One of the things we are looking at in the

moratorium is what would be the impact of decommissioning in terms

of health and the environment? Why have you got a moratorium and you're

trying to clean up the mess? We're trying to show how expensive and

difficult it might be to do that but one of the reasons we have the

monitor or -- moratorium is we have a situation where the UK Government

have given licences to companies to track in Scotland. -- to attempt to

fracking. We insisted on no more licences being granted until we get

the power. But unless we have the solid evidence before we were to

move to a ban, we would end up in court. So a big corporation would

take you to court? I don't want to end up in court. I want to get the

evidence in place to take decisions on that basis. There is no fracking

allowed in Scotland right now and if there is any suggestion at all that

it harms the environment, there will never be fracking allowed in

Scotland as long as I have the power to do that. Time for one final

question, which comes from Lynne Hunter, a company director.

President-elect Donald Trump calls you. What is your opening gambit? If

President-elect Donald Trump picks up the phone, what is your opening

President-elect Donald Trump picks gamut from a Willie Rennie? Get off

my phone! gamut from a Willie Rennie? Get off

It is a worry that someone like that could be in charge of one of the

most powerful countries in the world, when we have some unlike

Barack Obama come all the alternative, Hillary Clinton. I

think it could be a great country that we could achieve great things

with, the US, but with Donald Trump, he would drag it right down. David

Coburn? Well, Donald Trump seems to me, the idea of him becoming

president... What about the idea of you becoming president? First

Minister communing? The Trump makes Dr Strangelove, the movie about the

nuclear war, seem more like fact and fiction. It is a very terrifying

prospect. -- than fiction. I think he has some very strange ideas. What

are you saying if he's on the phone? Come over for a game of golf and

invest some money in Scotland. Patrick Harvie? He's not going to

call me! I remain to this day the only person who has been a member of

the Scottish Parliament to be formally cleared of blasphemy after

a complaint put in by Donald Trump to the Parliamentary standards

Commissioner about me. You are proud of that, by the sound of things? It

gives me a little feeling of pride. So what if he does phone you, what

would you say? I think my jaw would So what if he does phone you, what

be on the floor. You would be speechless! Let us make one series

point, let us unite in hope that the American people see through the

races, xenophobic, misogynistic, bombastic rhetoric of this man.

APPLAUSE APPLAUSE

-- racist. If Donald Trump phoned me, my question would be, can I have

fries with that? I don't think he will have a job. Identity will be

president of the United States because I think the people of that

country have too much sense to let him anywhere near the White House.

It is not such a far-fetched prospect that Donald Trump would

phone who ever is the next First Minister because he dealt with Jack

McConnell of Labour and Alex Salmond of the SNP as he was seeking to

invest in Scotland. Kezia Dugdale, what would you say? Three simple

words, stop preaching hate. what would you say? Three simple

Was it a mistake of the Scottish dogma of whatever colour to get cosy

with him? Look, I'm sure Nicola regrets it now but she was just

trying to bring investment and jobs to Scotland, it's just a shame it

had to be from a character like that. Given that I stripped Donald

Trump of the global Scott state is that Jack McConnell gave him, I'm

not sure he would be wanting to phone me in the highly unlikely

event he becomes president. -- global Scot. I don't think it's

going to happen because I think the good people of America will send

Donald Trump packing and we should already was when that happens. What

would your message be? "I'm On the already was when that happens. What

other line, sorry". Thank you for those answers and all those

contributions. We've come to the end of our debate,

but of course, the campaign for your vote ahead of the May

election has only just begun. We'll be hosting another Leaders'

Debate just four days In between, we'll be covering every

twist and turn on television, But my thanks to our panel

and to our audience here in Glasgow.