The Scottish Leaders' Debate

In four days' time we will elect a new Scottish Government, more

powerful than ever before. It is make your mind up time.

A very warm welcome to the historic surroundings of Hopetoun House. We

will explore some of the major issues in the election campaign with

the party leaders currently represented in the Scottish

parliament. The questions tonight or come from the audience, representing

a cross-section of opinion. Seeking election to be First Minister is

leader of the SNP, Nicola Sturgeon. Challenging her is Kezia Dugdale,

leader of the Scottish Labour Party. Bruce Davidson said she wants to

provide strong position as leader of the Scottish Conservatives. Willie

Rennie says this is the comeback collection for the Scottish Liberal

Democrats. Also with high hopes of success, Patrick Harvie, co-convenor

of the Scottish Greens. To do justice to the questions and

the audience, we are hoping for a reasonably civilised debate to allow

people to hear what panellists will save about them talking over each

other. You're welcome to in at home. Let's go to our first question

tonight, from Maureen, a lecturer. I would like to ask, what specific

plans do have to create more jobs? Nicola Sturgeon, we have seen 20,000

jobs lost in Scotland already. What plans do you have? We have a number

of plans to grow the economy and boost employment. At the heart of

our plans is continued support for small businesses, often seen as the

engine of our economy. Over the past years the SNP has been in

government, we have supported small-business bonus and we want now

to maintain and extend the small business bonus to be lived more

small businesses out of business rates altogether. We also intend to

have a general review of business rates and we have a competitive

system here that is encouraging companies to start up and to grow.

We have been very successful in recent times in supporting company

start-up. We want to support companies getting bigger because as

they do that they will create more jobs. We want investment hubs in

they do that they will create more different parts of the UK and to

support companies to export more, there is strong evidence or

international our companies are the more innovative they are and the

more jobs they can support. We also want to use new powers coming to the

Scottish Parliament to support young people, in particular, into

employment with a new job scrum for young people who have been

unemployed for more than six months. unemployed for more than six months.

-- new jobs grant. Often a person finds difficulties with things like

transport. That is in addition to maintaining college places,

supporting more young people into university. We have had challenging

jobs figures recently. For much of the last year employment levels have

been above other parts of the UK. We have a record number of young people

in our economy and society going into positive destinations. Much has

been done and much more still to do and I looking forward with getting

on with that if re-elected. We have a higher unemployment rate in

Scotland as a whole. We have had industry leaders warning that hiking

business leaders for larger businesses, medium and big

businesses, will cost. The hiking business rates you have spoken about

is a 3.4% increase for the largest businesses. To put that into

is a 3.4% increase for the largest context, what we are talking

about... It translates into a 3.4% increase. We are talking that RBS,

Amazon, the BBC as well. It is 13% of businesses, the largest

businesses. At a time when public service is our understrength and we

are trying to invest more in public services, it is a fair and

progressive thing to do, asking larger businesses depended bit more

while lifting more small businesses out of business rates altogether. --

to contribute a little bit more. What specific plans do you have to

create new jobs? Then you take it back to not just the chamber of

commerce comments last week but also the five trade groups that came at

this week saying the SNP business policies have been damaging to

business growth in Scotland. The talked about the large business

supplement. That is not just a small increase, it is doubling it

overnight without warning businesses whatsoever and making it

uncompetitive against the rest of the UK. It is for one in seven of

the whole businesses in Scotland. A large shop on a high street, an

independent one, were subject to that. What we need is to encourage

businesses to grow. You do not do that by making Scotland the highest

taxed part of the UK. It is not fair on workers. It does not encourage

jobs and opportunities. We want to make sure we never have taxes higher

here than we have in the rest of the UK. We also need a business rates

freeze. Under the SNP, business rates have gone up by 42%. They have

been using them as a cash cow of the Government. No wonder businesses in

Scotland are struggling and unemployment is going up. The other

big issue that business is always the is skills. They do not have

enough skilled people. The SNP has cut 152,000 college places. We want

to have people with the skills to allow businesses to use -- to

expand. That is putting ?60 million backing and increasing the number of

apprenticeships so people can earn while they learn, people about Byrne

on the job. We value the occasional education as much as an academic

education in this country. We have heard serious warnings that

jobs could be lost on the Clyde. You spoke to the Defence Secretary about

this. Did he guarantee there would be no delay in those contracts? I

spoke to him. I took all of these concerns to be Defence Secretary the

weekend. We need to make sure the concerns to be Defence Secretary the

contracts go ahead. He categorically assured me... There is no change.

Hang on. Let's be clear. There is no delay. The strategic defence

Security review was put out last year. It said it would build

frigates. There has been no change. They now believe there was that cut

in steel since December 20 17. There has been a delay of a year and a

half and it is a betrayal of the people.

APPLAUSE There is ?8 billion going into

shipbuilding on the Clyde. We do not build complex warships outside of

the UK. We need to move on with this build complex warships outside of

question. Kezia Dugdale, the question was, what specific plans do

you have to create more jobs? These are worrying times for the economy

of Scotland. Have to prepare ourselves for the future. We need to

invest in the skills and knowledge of people. When people come out of

university and college, they are not going to have one job or one career,

they may have for careers in a globalised world. We have to invest

in skills and knowledge. In 1980, the only way to grow business is by

cutting taxes. The one thing we are doing is investing in people. And I

travelled the country and speak to businesses, they said the biggest

challenge they face is productivity. If we invest in people, using the

tax powers of Parliament to raise more money so we can have a

world-class education system again, we can have those jobs in the future

and bring them to Scotland. If we continue to cut education budgets

like the SNP does, Scotland will get left behind. I do not want that for

the young people. APPLAUSE

Your manifesto said she would oppose the renewal of Trident submarines.

It does not say how you protect the thousands of jobs that may be lost.

We had a healthy, democratic progress to come to the conclusion

we would oppose the renewal of Trident. We have to be honest and

responsible enough to recognise there are thousands of people who

rely on work at that base. Our position reflects the need for a

defence diverse indication agency to identify the skills on the Clyde to

try to find alternative jobs and pushing it is for people who work on

the Clyde. You do not know what those jobs would be. They are around

engineering, science and skills. It is honest and the right thing to do,

to say, yes, there will be a lot of work. I have heard the SNP time have

they would spend the money they would save from Trident but I have

never heard them say how they would save the jobs affected by this

proposal. Ayew saying until you can decide what to do, you would carry

on with the programme? -- are you saying? We have proposed the renewal

of Trident on the basis we can protect the jobs. The manifesto does

not say how you can do that. We need to involve the unions, the industry,

the sector, to work out which jobs we can help, engineers, scientific

experts to secure alternative work. That reflects a healthy and

democratic process within the Labour Party. We will come to the audience

in a moment. Willie Rennie, what specific plans do you have to create

in a moment. Willie Rennie, what more jobs? What we need to do is

create a magnet in this country for businesses to invest. In order for

businesses to invest, we need to invest in the skills and talents of

the people who live here. That will be the magnet, for creating growth

and opportunity for the future. We will not do that by cutting 152,000

places from our colleges as the SNP has done. We need to get Scottish

education back-up to being the best in the world again. Not about

taxation. That will not drive up skills and talents of people in the

country. They need to invest for the future, we need to invest for the

future. To do that, we need to put a modest payment of income tax but I

would take it back to the early years that if we can invest in the

early years, we can create young people who will be drivers for the

economy in the future. We will create opportunities for them and

also drive forward the economy for the future. Maureen, my aunts who --

answer is to invest in skills and talents of people who are here so we

can create a Bible and economy for the future. -- a vibrant economy.

Our education system needs investment. That is urgent. All our

public senses need protection from the cuts coming and investment in

the future. Healthy economy depends on good quality public service is, a

healthy, well educated population and public funded infrastructure.

There is a lot more we need to be doing with public investment as

well. The arguments for and energy transition, making sure we are

investing in high quality housing that is affordable for people to

live in. Far too many people are priced out of housing at the moment.

With public investment, not only in new-build but also energy

efficiency, we could be creating a social and environmental benefit and

a huge amount of productive work which many contractors around the

country can be engaged in. In recent months, the SNP has agreed there

will be an infrastructure priority. Sadly they cut the budget. The

Greens will bring relentless pressure to bear for that kind of

public investment. We also need to look beyond simply the question of

the number of people in employment. If employment figures go down

because more of them are locked in zero hours contracts on poverty

wages, that is not a healthy and productive, decent economy. You need

to be looking at the quality of employment. Things like employee

ownership. Businesses who have roots in the community they serve. Where

there is a genuine commitment to insuring that businesses stay active

in that community, and said of a large, multinational deciding this

bunch of shops is not productive anymore, so we will close them, or

shifting investment so it will benefit the shareholders, or taking

the profits and siphoning it off into tax havens. This is the whole

structure of our economy, quality employment as well as quantity. The

Greens will put forward investment plans for the future. I am

astonished that the Scottish Greens is the only party genuinely talking

about a transition away from our over reliance on fossil fuels. It is

safe. We need to be looking at that. safe. We need to be looking at that.

-- people's jobs safe. Thank you very much. Let willey

Rennie come in. What are you going to say to those who'll lose their

jobs in the North Sea? They are not going to be crying out for your kind

of policies, they are going to be crying out for a job -- Willie

Rennie. If I have my say, they won't be left in the same position as the

coal fire plant. We should have been using the last decade of its

operation to invest in an economic alternative for the community and

the workers for the future. Instead, what happens - the announcement gets

made, then we set up a Task Force. Then we think about what comes next.

I don't want to leave Scotland and in particular those over exposed to

the fossil fuel industry in that same limbo. We are already in North

Sea. There's life in the North Sea and there are people in the

north-east right now... APPLAUSE.

I agree, there are people in the north-east. Let's take this

opportunity to put it back to the audience. Have you been convinced by

what you have heard from the panel there, to the questioner? There are

a lot of young people that need jobs now. I think it can't always be a

plan for the future, I think you have to deal with the situation as

it is. I absolutely agree you need plan force the future and Patrick's

absolutely right, you don't wait until something goes wrong then set

up how to fix it. I certainly would like to see people move away from

the kind of zero hours contracts, the type of volunteering that has to

go on now for long periods of time before people could do that to try

and up their skills. Now you have more and more young people who are,

for years, trying to volunteer in order to get the skills in order to

be able to progress. I would like to see those tackled.

APPLAUSE. Anybody National Institute for

Clinical Excellence the audience want to come in on that? A young man

at the back? I'm a welder, I served my time on the Clyde and worked in

the shipyard and I would like to ask, for people like me, there's not

much work there. Our company is not competitive, we have no foreign

contracts. What would the parties do to attract that kind of work? We'll

have to run quickly through them to ask that? Kezia Dugdale? Ruth's told

a porky tonight, there is an ask that? Kezia Dugdale? Ruth's told

18-month delay on the Clyde and has to be reversed to honour the promise

made to the people in the referendum.

What we need to do absolutely is not make sure that the only contracts

BAE has are contracts from the Iran. They are important and have to come

through, but we have got to be able to use the skills to export that

outside. One of the things that BAE systems have done is set up that

centre of excellence. It means they are able to sell to other countries.

What we need to do is make sure that you have work that's not just Iran

contracts. -- Royal Navy contracts. It's one of the things that's not

going ahead now. I was in the shipyard on Monday talking to the

unions. The reason they are worried about a lack of work for you and

your colleagues is because of the delay in the contract that was

promised to the workers on the Clyde so the first thing that should be

done, that promise should be upheld and that work should start. But we

need it now, not later. Nothing's changed. You have been shameful to

try and scare the workers on this, Nicola. If If you had your way 14

months ago, these frig greats... I challenge you to go into the

shipyard tomorrow and sit down. Two months ago - go into the yard and

speak to the unions who raised the concerns. They are furious that

promised made are not being kept. The OPVs are not enough. Fulfil the

contract now, anything less than that is a betrayal of the shipyard

workers. APPLAUSE.

Two aircraft carriers delivered, eight frig greats. We have to hear

from... His job is on the line. How much would you put in?

ALL SPEAK AT This is about the promises you made.

The chap up there who asked the question, his job is on the line

because the Government you support, the Tory party, your party's

betrayed the promises made. I don't think the workers on the

Clyde will be satisfied with this squabbling about the future of their

jobs. What they want to know is how we are going to diversify into new

sectors, that's exactly the question that was asked. A half decent job

has been done of stretching out into the renewable sector. That's the

kind of opportunities we should be trying to get towards and we won't

get that if the Conservatives at Westminster continue to cut the

support for the renewable energy sector. We won't even get that

diversification, so we need to get the assurance about the contracts

for the future and I don't think Ruth's quite telling the truth. The

second thing we need to do is to make sure we diversify into new

sectors and we knead the support from Government to make that happen.

Maybe you shouldn't have done it in the first place. Patrick Harvie. We

need toe move on to our next question from Brody McLaren, a

full-time student. If in the future the majority of Scots are in favour

of a second independence referendum, who are politicians to deny this?

Kezia Dugdale, would you deny Scotland a chance to vote on

independence again? I believed the First Minister when she said this

was a once in a lifetime or generation opportunity. Not even 20

months have passed since we came together to vote in the referendum.

APPLAUSE. Can I just say something else about

that. In 2011, Nicola's manifesto page 1 in 15 words made a very clear

commitment to having a referendum in that Parliament. This time around in

your manifesto Nicola, it's page 24 and you take 210 words to say maybe

yes, maybe no, I'm not sure, there is not a mandate. You are in two

different papers today saying yes we might have one and another saying no

we won't, trying to pull the wool over people's eyes in Scotland when

so many people just want to move on from the referendum of the past.

APPLAUSE. We have substantial new powers and

tax come to the Scottish Parliament. Wouldn't it be great if we used

those for the future, creating the Scotland we want to see instead of

revisiting the past arguments. APPLAUSE.

You've made it very clear you don't support another referendum. If it

was clear the majority of the country wanted one, would it be

right to deny that vote? I don't believe Nicola is seeking another

referendum, she's saying trust the pollsters. If we did, Ed Miliband

would be Prime Minister. This is not way to govern the country. But the

question specifically is, if some change in circumstance meant that

the majority of Scots clearly indicated they wanted another vote,

would you try and stand in the way of that vote? Our manifesto has a

clear statement in it, we oppose a referendum in the next lifetime of

the Parliament because we believe the democratic will of the people

was expressed on #189 September and should be respected.

APPLAUSE. APPLAUSE.

-- on 18th September. Nicola Sturgeon, there isn't a

definite commitment to another referendum in your manifesto, but

you are quoted today as saying you think one will happen, independence

will happen while you are First Minister? For me this is rooted in

democracy and public opinion. Let me be frank about it. I'd back

independence, I think it's the best future for our country. But if those

who support independence cannot persuade people that we didn't

persuade in 2014 if independence doesn't become the preferred option,

we'll not have earned the right to ask that question again. I'm very

clear about that, but on the other hand, if people do change their

minds and what we are seeing from the Tory Government right now, the

prospect of being ripped out of the European Union against our will, if

people do change their minds and there is clear and sustained

evidence that independence has become the preference of a majority

of people in Scotland, then to answer the question that was asked

directly by Brody, then no politician has the right to stand in

the way of the democratic wishes of the Scottish people.

That is the That is the

- position I'm putting forward. I think the question for other

politicians on this platform, what is it they think gives them the

right to stand in the way of a majority? Scotland will only become

independent if a majority backs that. That is democracy. None of us

should fear the democratic wishes of the people of this country.

APPLAUSE. Nicola Sturgeon you often say you

would consider another referendum if there is clear evidence the majority

of Scots wanted it, that is another way of saying I'll only hold another

vote if I know I'm going to win it. I am supporting What is respectful

about that... I believe in something. You know, Ed Miliband

didn't win the general election, I don't expect Kezia Dugdale to give

up campaigning for a Labour Government, nibble something, I have

convictions, principles, I will continue to try to persuade people

of those. Whether I succeed or not will be down to the strength of the

arguments I put forward and ultimately down to the wishes of the

Scottish people. We are all democrats. What on earth is it about

the democratic will that some people on this platform seem to find so

frightening? APPLAUSE.

Willie Rennie should politicians be able to deny another referendum? I

respect your support of the referendum, I do respect it. But my

appeal to you, Brody, is to use the next five years to focus on

something I think we have neglected in the last five years. I think we

have neglected many areas like our education system, our mental Health

Services, that are way below par, the fact we have missed our climate

change targets for the last four years in a row. I think our civil

change targets for the last four liberties have been undermined too.

I want to focus on making Scotland one of the best countries in the

world again. Therefore in order to do that, would you deny another

world again. Therefore in order to referendum? We will not achieve that

by having a ground hog day debate referendum? We will not achieve that

about independence. If we keep on disrespecting the result, we will

not achieve that better Scotland. APPLAUSE.

Willie for much of the last five years, your party were propping up

We had one of the best democratic experiences in our lifetime. We

celebrated it constantly. Now as soon as it's over and they don't get

the result they want, they want to do it all over again. Do they not

get the message - we want to stay in 2 t UK, respect the result, I would

go as far as saying you are antidemocratic.

CHEERING AND APPLAUSE. Ruth, hold on a second, we'll bring

in Patrick Harvie, would you like to see another referendum in the

lifetime of this Parliament? Like others, I don't know when another

referendum will be had but Scottish Greens and myself put forward a

distinctive argument for a yes vote in 2014 and, if there's another

referendum, we'll do it again. I share the view that this would be

the best choice for Scotland, the best opportunity fors to take our

economy and society in a new fairer and better direction. But I want to

pick Upton phrase that's been used "we have to respect the result of

the referendum". Absolutely we should respect the result of the

referendum and when the result was in, we didn't immediately demand to

start appealing for an independent settlement. That would have happened

if the result went the other way. Respecting the result means

respecting the fact that a substantial number of us Scottish

voters did vote for independence. Seeing the result and respecting the

result doesn't mean we have to crawl away and shut up about it any more.

The opportunity to continue to debate this is still there and,

although there are some who feel debate this is still there and,

utterly opposed to the idea of another referendum ever, and some

who can't wait to get campaigning for it, I think the great mass of

people out there in Scotland are quite capable of having this debate

in a mature way, not being afraid of it, not feeling pushed into it

either, but knowing we'll ultimately make this decision in the only

democratic way by the people in a reference dull. -- referendum. There

is a great deal we need to do with the powers of the Scottish

Parliament and I feel if we are bold in our use of the powers, if we do

sometimes push the Scottish Government out of its comfort zone

to be more ambitious, we may do a great deal to convince those many

people who saw the attractions of independence fought long and hard

but ended up with no, we may do a great deal to convince them that

independence is still a positive opportunity for Scotland.

APPLAUSE. All right. Ruth Davidson, you are

campaigning on a slogan of no to a second referendum. Does that mean if

the Scottish Government wanted to call one, do you think the Prime

Minister should prevent it? The former Deputy Leader is saying there

is no mandate for it in Nicola Sturgeon's manifesto to call a

second referendum. Nicola Sturgeon made a big speech and talks about

how she's got convictions and principles but I would suggest that

as First Minister she also has responsibilities and her

responsibilities are to all of Scotland, not just to the SNP. Her

responsibilities... APPLAUSE.

That means she should not be keeping this wound open. It is not good for

our country or the economy or encouraging jobs and growth and all

of the things we want to sleep she made a promise, she signed a binding

agreement, that she would respect -- that it was once in a generation. It

is not up to her to see an opinion poll and say we are putting this

country through it once more. It is not on.

Unsurprisingly, a lot of our audience are keen to join in the

debate. The stop the lady in the front row. There is a lot of talk

about respecting the results. Do you know what? Within 48 hours of that

last independence referendum, the country changed and they realised

they had been duped by Westminster. As far as I am concerned you need to

respect the change of the people who decided they were not happy with all

of the things you then backtracked on and promised Scotland. We will

take a couple more from the audience, a young man here. Willie

talks about creating opportunities in the next five years. What I want

to know is, what are the plans of all of the candidates for creating

opportunities for the young, homeless in Scotland? We will stick

on the subject of the second referendum for now. The gentleman in

a dark jacket with his hand in the air. When Ayew going to start to

work together? -- when are you going to start to work together? One more

contribution from the audience. At the back. I do not understand the

presumption that the manifesto is a bedrock of democracy. The

Conservatives and there is no mention in the general election

manifesto of turning schools into academies but they seem happy to go

ahead with that. The manifesto is a real red herring that people move

away from. Do you need to make a commitment? I absolutely think you

do. That is why there was a big discussion, the Edinburgh agreement,

a bilateral agreement between the Scottish and UK Government with the

signature of Nicola Sturgeon on it saying she would respect the

referendum result. I come back to the gentleman in the centre saying,

what shall we do to bring the country back together. There is one

person more than anyone else on the stage who has the ability to do

that. She's standing on my right. Or stage who has the ability to do

she has to say is, let's not restart a campaign say I hold the power and

reopen this, let's give the country the stability and security needs to

move on and say, I am taking it off the table, at least for the next

Parliament. APPLAUSE

If there is no change in opinion, if Scotland does not get ripped out of

the European Union against our will, it will be off the table. I am not

the European Union against our will, proposing a second referendum

tomorrow. I am talking about the Scottish parliament having the right

to propose a second referendum if it becomes clear the majority of people

in Scotland want independence. It would have to be a majority of

people who want it. You are the one person who decides when that is. The

Scottish parliament would have to legislate for that. What I struggle

with is not that people disagree with me about independence. I

respect that. I struggle with politicians who have difficulty

saying if the majority of people in Scotland want something then they

have the right to stand in the way of that. That is undemocratic. The

referendum that is creating uncertainty in the business

community right now is the referendum that your party is making

as have on the European Union. The prospect of Scotland staying in the

European Union is something I think is outrageous. Do you think there

should be a mandate if it is not in the manifesto? I want to address the

question about how we move on, how we bring Scotland back together,

people who voted yes and no. Of greatest myth of the referendum was

that independence was the only way to change things. I believe that the

power is coming to Parliament so we can tax the rich, stop cuts to the

public services in the NHS, allows to make different choices from the

Tories down south. We have those powers and I am appealing directly

to people who voted yes and no, if you share my vision of a Scotland

that is fairer and more equal, let's use those powers where every Scot

can fulfil their potential. APPLAUSE

We have to move onto another question, I am afraid, in which will

definitely your say. With ever-growing austerity and an ageing

population and an ever increasing reliance on the NHS and its

services, how would you protect and continue to protect the health

budget? Ruth Davidson. We put an NHS guarantee in our manifesto saying

what we wanted to do was increase funding to the NHS, either by 2% or

inflation or by the Barnett consequential is, whichever is the

highest. We want to do that every year for the next five years. That

is ?1 billion of money into the NHS. What we have seen in this country,

in Scotland, between 2010 and 2015, it went up by 1%. We want to make

sure every penny is passed on board we want to change what we do in the

NHS as well. -- passed on. We have seen the proportion of the NHS

budget has gone down a lot over the last few years and the SNP. The

other thing is, let's try to take some of the weight of our GPs. You

say you are a pharmacist. One thing that works in Scotland is the minor

ailments service. People do not know about it. That is where you can go

straight to a pharmacist to get help, rather than having GPs

surgeries overloaded. We know there is an issue with appointments you

want to put an extra ?10 million into that to help take some of that

of the GP surgery. You also want to reintroduce charges for

prescriptions for the NHS. We want that for the 10% of prescriptions

where people used to pay. We were still keep it free for people like

pregnant women and those with long-term conditions who have to go

back again and again. It is not OK for politicians like us to get free

painkillers when someone lying on a cancer ward cannot get a drug that

they could get some else. That would be worth about ?65 million year. It

would help staffing and help with drugs availability we do not have in

Scotland. APPLAUSE

Do you agree the better off should pay for their prescriptions? I agree

with the National health service free at the point of use on a

collective basis. I should pay more because I have a higher income. I

should pay that through progressive income tax. That is how we pay for

things collectively which make us better off collectively as a

society. If we reintroduce prescription charges, it is not only

the case that delivering that system probably would say very little

money. It also continues this notion that there are those who take from

public services and those who contribute. The case for

universalism is really strong. What would be next? Charges to visit your

GP and charges for this and that in the health service. I also want to

challenge another bit of language we heard about protecting NHS funding

within the envelope. Within the envelope. That means, at the same

time as cutting everything else. From the UK Government and applying

those. If we just give the Barnett consequential to the health service,

where we are trying to do health and social care integration of local

councils are having budget squeeze, the system will not work. Public

services will work well together if we protect them all. By returning to

progressive taxation, ensuring that SNP 's like us on generous salaries

pay more in tax because we can afford to do that while saving money

for everyone on a lower income, we can protect all of our public

services are not squeeze local councils who deliver care services

and allow with the NHS. That is what we need to do in Scotland and we are

every bit capable of so doing if we ensure the Scottish Government is

under pressure for progressive taxation and raising revenue from

those who can afford to pay for vital public services.

APPLAUSE GP services have been in the news

this week. There was something of a crisis in general practice. Willie

Rennie, you have an interesting promise manifesto that there would

be a mental health specialist available in every GP surgery. When

they are struggling to find enough GPs, how would you intend to do

that? They are going to be 740 GPs short by the end of the decade. We

that? They are going to be 740 GPs have young people, all the way from

teenagers to old age who are waiting for months on end to get mental

health treatment. You can just imagine waiting for mental health

treatment when it is urgent and you have to wait for months. Those are

the two cornerstones we believe we should be investing in the NHS. We

will give that guarantee for the NHS. We need to make sure that we

get the proper funding going through. Inflation busting, we need

to make sure it is going through, all the Barnett consequential 's are

passed on. At the corner of this we need mental health professionals at

all levels. We need them in primary care, and with the police as well.

When the police are going around and coming across a crisis situations,

they can give immediate help at that point. The most important of all is

making sure that young people and adolescents get proper support. Do

you know, there are no mental health beds north of Dundee? That is a

disgrace. People should not have to travel for a very long time when you

are so young and you need urgent treatment. For all of those reasons,

we need to guarantee funding for the NHS and make sure the GP service is

properly staffed and we have mental health support that we need.

APPLAUSE Nicola Sturgeon, I assume you agree

there is a crisis with GPs. One in ten GPs say they intend to leave

within the next year. What can you do about that? I will come onto GPs

in the course of my answer. It is a very important question. Investment

reform are two watchwords of our policy. We are investing more in the

national Health Service and any other party. We are promising to

increase the health budget by ?500 million more than inflation over the

next Parliament. That would be paid for by not giving higher rate

taxpayers the tax cuts proposed by George Osborne. We would invest in

our health service. As your question alluded to, simply investing more

money in the health service given the ageing population will not be

enough in itself was a need to change the way the health service

delivers care. We will also establish treatment centres to deal

with hip replacements and cataract operations which come with an ageing

population. We will spend an increasing proportion of the health

budget each and every year. We will put more pharmacists into GP

surgeries and increased training numbers for GPs, also the share of

the budget going into social care and mental health. I agree with a

lot of what Willie has said about mental health. The final point I

would make is on prescription charges. Ruth would have you believe

that only rich people would pay prescription charges. What she is

actually proposing is restoring a system of prescription charges that

charges people earning as little as ?16,000 a year. That is the system

we scrapped. Putting prescription charges back for the conditions that

were not exempt before. Cancer patients would have to pay. People

with Parkinson's and asthma. That is what she is proposing. Patrick

Harvie is absolutely right. Are the -- either we have a health care

system free at the point of need or we do not. I think we should protect

the founding values of our health service, as well as securing budget.

Previous leaders of the Scottish Labour Party have talked about

introducing free prescription charges, but you have argued against

that? We have fair and progressive tax policies much like Patrick. We

think people who earn a bit more should pay a bit more to protect the

things we all value like the fact that the NHS is free at the point of

use. The NHS was the Labour Party's proudest achievement and we want to

protect it for the future. Our spending plan force the NHS is

the... No they are not Kezia. Because to have tax choices we have

made. But here's the thing. As well as investing in the NHS we have to

invest in a health care society. The NHS doesn't work in globalised

isolation, the cuts, austerity we are seeing for disabled people,

people in communities, elderly, vulnerable, put greater demands our

on our NHS so we have to stop the cuts in order to protect the NHS and

ask those with the broadest shoulders to pay a bit more tax so

we can protect the things we love like our National Health Service.

Let me pick up on one thing. We have discussed the crisis of GPs that

there is a shortage. You are promising patients will be able to

have an appointment in a surgery within 48-hours and they can see an

actual GP if they want. How do you propose to implement that? We have

never said it would be a doctor. If you are living with diabetes for

example, you need to see a specialist nurse. Perhaps you have

got ligament problems or problems with joints, you need to see a

physiotherapist, it's not always the GP you would need to see, we'd

invest more in a minor ailment service. They'll ask to see the GP

above the nurse. You say they can see them and you say it will happen

above the nurse. You say they can in 48-hours? It would be ?100

million per annum, we are able to make that financial commitment

because of the spending plans we have put forward. The Labour Party

has an anti-skirt pledge. We have said we can raise enough money to

stop further cuts to Public Services by raising ?1.2 billion a year in

extra tax -- anti-austerity pledge. Nicola's plans only raise ?300

million a year. You know that when I'm making a promise, I'm able to

keep it because I'm being honest. There is an important point of

accuracy here. I don't think it's acceptable for Kezia to come here

and try to rewrite our manifesto which was published only a few days

ago. I'm committing to increasing the health budget by ?500 million

more than inflation over the next Parliament. Kezia's manifesto, and

you can check it for yourself, you don't have to take my word for it,

says Labour would increase the health budget only by inflation.

That's actually less than the so-called Barnett consequentials.

Kezia's in the bizarre position of offering the least extra investment

of any of the parties here tonight. That's not true. It's shocking for a

Labour Party to be in that position. APPLAUSE.

Kezia Dugdale, what does your manifesto say you would spend on the

NHS? We have said we'd increase spending on the NHS in line with

inflation, but because of the different tax policies we have made,

we can spend more money on Public Services because we are prepared

to... Your manifesto says... Why haven't you put that extra spending

in your manifesto, put a figure on it? But if you... This is important

because... Yes it really is important. If you increase the

health budget by inflation, you actually don't pass on even all of

the Barnett consequentials, I'm saying ?500 million more than

inflation. You cannot stand here with a manifesto that says inflation

only and look at me saying ?500 million more than inflation and

somehow say you are promising the same as the SNP. That's simply

dishonest, Kezia. It's not. It's the lowest offer. Kezia's been asked a

specific question. Tell us about your spending? What is dishonest is

not to recognise the difference between your spending plans and mine

is ?3 billion over the lifetime of the next Parliament. Nicola's not

telling you that because she's refusing to use the tax powers of

the Parliament, we are faced with ?3 billion worth of costs. We are

talking about health spending here. ?600 million worth of Public

Services for every Scot in the country -- ?600 worth. We have to be

honest. Let's go back to the gentleman who asked the question and

see what he makes of the debate. I'm extremely proud working on the

frontline of the NHS and all of my colleagues rsmt I think one of the

things moving forward is investment is important. It's important how we

practise clinical care, work in an oaf FCive and safe manner so we can

deregulate some of the processes and procedures that we have and open up

other health care professionals -- work an effective.

Another question now. Given the Edinburgh schools fiasco, how would

politicians ensure money goes to the right people to safeguard our

community? Thank you very much for your question. I have to warn the

panelists, relatively briefly. The coalition government signed a lot of

the partnerships, 17 of which have been closed because of worries about

defects, was it a mistake to sign the contract? It was Gordon Brown

who put in place a financial framework for all public sector

bodies, whether it's the Scottish framework for all public sector

Parliament, Scottish Government, local authorities, working under

that regime. What we need to do now is to make sure that two things

happen. The first thing is to get these schools opened as quickly as

possible and safe as possible. That's the top priority. Because

these kids deserve the opportunity to get educated in their schools.

The second thing we need to do is to make sure that we have a proper

inquiry. To find out whether the PFI or PPP arrangements at that time

were a contributory factor to what has happened. Now, that is important

in terms of how we are going to involve private finance in the

future because it would be currently in our procurement just now, do have

finance involved. Is this model better than the last? What other

models should we be looking at? That's important. OK. If we are

going to build new schools for the future. My idea, should we get the

schools open as quickly and safely as possible, also make sure we have

an inquiry for the future finance of our public bodies - yes. I careerly

have to reissue the warning that we don't have much time to the end of

the programme -- clearly. Was it a mistake for Holyrood to have signed

the public private partnership? This is a very difficult question. The

reality is we had to use that mechanism because the schools had

been left in rack and ruin by the Tories for 18 years. Do I wish

different choices had been made - absolutely. That is why the

manifesto looks to review all forms of Private Finance Initiative,

include ago method the SNP used now which is called NPD. Nicola is

spending ?8 million on her own initiatives and the next Parliament

is a chance to review all the different models of private finance.

We don't yet know what's gone wrong in Edinburgh and there should be a

full inquiry into that, but I think in Edinburgh and there should be a

what we do know is that the old style PFI projects, unlike MPD which

what we do know is that the old caps private profits... Still makes

a profit though, doesn't it Maximised profit over good and that

should never be allowed to happen again. I also think we should

explore every opportunity where we can to get out of these old style

PFI contracts so we get better value for taxpayers. In the future I want

to see us get as much of the education budget into the hands of

teachers and head teachers so it can go on improving education for your

young people. Patrick Harvie? The anger of parents in the Edinburgh

schools is palpable and justified and frankly, it rings a bit hollow

to say that was the only game in town at the time because it was the

UK Labour Government that made sure it was the only game in town. Even

though we know that public sector borrowing is cheaper than private

sector debt and these expensive deals that were done. So we do need

to make sure - we don't need a huge inquiry to know whether PFI and PPP

were a good idea, they were monumentally a bad idea - we need to

improve thing, not just in schools. We need a debate on whether ferry

services get handed over to the private sector, a debate about

whether we bring railways back into public ownership. That is the only

accountable way and very often the most affordable way in the long run

rather than racking up huge debts for the future. Le's remember the

questioner went beyond that specific question about schools. How do we

make sure money goes to the right people? We need to look at the

accountability of all of our Public Services and infrastructure and make

sure that they operate in public hands for the public good. That's

the agenda that Greens will represent in the next session of the

Scottish Parliament and we hope to bring pressure to bear on the

Scottish Government, whichever party is in power, to make sure that we

keep our Public Services and infrastructure operating in the

public sector. APPLAUSE.

Thank you. Ruth day Sidson? On the Edinburgh schools, was it the public

private partnership used to finance the building that was the problem?

Everyone on the panel is absolutely right, we need an inquiry to find

out what happened with this group of schools. We need to have parents

across the country knowing the schools their children go to are

safe. That's why we have been asking for more than two years now that

buildings inspections are part of a regular inspection regime on our

school estates and we have been knocked back at every turn by the

SNP. We need to make sure that our buildings and the fabric of our

buildings are regularly inspected, their upkept and people understand

and know that when they send their children off to school, the schools

are safe. PFI or whatever? Yes, regular schools. Even where private

contractors... Let's quickly go to the audience. A gentleman with his

hand in the air in a checked shirt in the middle. I want to ask a

question to Nicola regarding people of Paisley. There are 100,000 people

that are going to go to voting on Thursday. They are very concerned

about Ward 15 at the hospital. There seems to be a question whether the

Government is going to invest in that ward. That is a very specific

question. We'll let Nicola answer it on health spending? I will

absolutely give a commitment that we'll keep services as local as they

need to be. I became the Health Secretary in 2007, the first Act I

took as Health Secretary was to overturn Labour's plans to close

accident and emergency services in Ayr. There are no proposals to close

that particular ward, I believe, in local services with access for local

people and I've got the record to prove that that's what I believe in.

We were talking about schools and education and on that we have heard

the teachers' union threatening to ballot for industrial action of

their workload. Would you support them if they took action, Kezia dug

Doyle da ill? Yes, because they are right to stand up toer that. They

need to use the powers of the Parliament to invest to support our

teachers and young people who're just about the sit their exams.

Nicola Sturgeon, possible industrial action from teachers, saying their

workload is overbearing and it's the curriculum for excellence, your

policy? We have a working group right now looking at the concerns

teachers have about over-assessment in schools and curriculum for

excellence and we'll work with teachers to look at that. I am

passionate about, if I am re-elected on Thursday as First Minister, I

take nothing for granted, but I hope to be, and I'm passionate about

making sure that we have the best education in all of our schools for

all of your young people. I've said before and will say it again, it

will be the determining mission if I'm re-elected.

APPLAUSE. Reaction from the audience. A lady

in a purple cardigan? If we are going to bring education back to

what it was, where would standardising that come in, all

teachers are doing is testing, they are teaching to test? Woe don't have

time to answer these questions, I believe. We'll take some

contributions, rather than questions. The gentleman there. How

are we going to get out of these contracts? My children and

grandchildren are going to be paying for this mistake. Billions of pounds

for 100 million that should have went into schools are going to cost

billions. We should be getting out of these contracts because they

ripped us off and there was alternatives at the time. It's a

fallacy and a lie to say there was no voices that said this is a

ridiculous way to pay for schools. Thank you very much for your

contribution, the palpable anger over this issue is clear, but I'm

afraid that's all we've got time for. So we have time just to say,

thank you to the panel, thank you to you for watching and to our audience

for coming along this evening and for all their contributions. Plenty

more online. The website address is on the screen and we'll be with you

through the night on Thursday as we learn how you've all voted in this

election. For now, from all of us at Hopetoun House. Good night.