What Now for Scotland?

After the UK voted to leave the European Union, what now for

Scotland? What are the advantages and

disadvantages of a Brexit vote? What should our future relationship with

the EU and the rest of the UK look like? To explore the options, here

in Glasgow comedy Conservative MSP and law professor, Adam Tomkins. The

Scottish Government's external affairs secretary, Fiona Hyslop of

the SNP. Scottish Labour's economy spokesperson, Jackie Baillie. And

the man who led the official Leave campaign in Scotland, former Labour

MP, Tom Harris. You can join the debate on social media. We can get

started and go straight to our first question from Hannah McDonald. Can

Scotland realistically stay in the EU even without the rest of Britain?

First Minister Nicola Sturgeon says she is exploring options to retain

the Scottish links with the European Union. But Fiona Hyslop ,, can

Scotland realistically stay in? It depends on a lot of things going

forward but yes. I know one of the ways to do that would be for

Scotland to become independent and to remain to be the member states

that stayed in if the rest of the United Kingdom came out. But we are

not there yet. We only had the vote barely a week ago. We have to look

at the interest of Scotland for a wide range of views and opinions.

That's why looking at all the options to make sure we can protect

the Scottish interests, and if that means protecting the interests of

the fair and honest thing to do, and the honest thing to do, is to look

at any option possible. That's the generosity and whiteness we have to

do in Scotland because people voted different ways. I'm determined that

whatever happens we will protect the Scottish interests and make sure our

voice is heard. Having been through the independence referendum, people

probably understand what that option is about, but if it wasn't

independence, how would it work, Scotland retaining links with the EU

and still part of the UK? How would that work? That's why we had the

standing Council on Europe where we have experts from a whole range,

diplomacy and business etc, and we have to identify the interests of

Scotland in particular. We don't even know what the Leave campaign or

the UK Government is determining is in our interests. Will we be in the

single market or not? On that spectrum from the period of why you

say, where you think the only way to maintain the interests and links are

independents, not like the Norway model, but there is so much

uncertainty and what we have to do is Mitchell we have clarity and our

voices are heard. It doesn't sound like you have a clear plan at this

stage. I am not prejudging and that is vital for the Scottish

Government's perspective. We are open to making sure all options are

looked at. That's the responsible thing for the Scottish Government.

Frankly, the behaviour of the UK Government and the Leave campaign,

leaving us with nothing a week after is absolutely disgraceful. Some

voices from the audience about what you think should flow from the

results from a Scottish point of view. Could you define what the

options could be, even some examples, because to say options, is

quite a vague term for voters. Some examples of options, even if you

don't necessarily see them working. At this stage Fiona Hyslop saying

she is open to options instead of setting some out. If the on the

panellists want to pick up on that, that will be fine. The gentleman in

the tartan waistcoat. I voted for independence and lost. I voted to

get the hell out of Europe, and I thought we won. Now I'm not sure

where I am. What am I supposed to vote in future if I'm landed with

independence against staying in Europe? I wouldn't know what to do,

help me out. The gentleman in the front row with the purple tie. Can I

question the SNP's voracity on this subject? They say Scotland voted

overwhelmingly to stay in Europe. If you look at the figures, there is

just under 4 million people eligible to vote, 1.6 million said wanted to

remain. Where does this hype come from that we have to leave the UK

Nestor that's not what Fiona Hiscock has said. -- leave the UK? That's

not what Fiona Hyslop has said. She said it was one option. What would

you like to happen? I would like the UK to stay together. Going to Adam

Tomkins, a Conservative MSP and a law professor. What are the options,

could Scotland realistically stay in the EU. What's possible from your

point of view? There are more agreements than disagreements

between myself and what Fiona Hyslop just sad. I think we and the United

Kingdom should be looking at all the options and Fiona is right to say

that nobody in the United Kingdom or Scotland has yet put their finger on

the word leave and defined what they mean by it. Do they mean to stay in

the single market, do they mean access to the single market, or a

Norway style deal, accessed the single market but no freedom of

movement? Unfortunately is grave uncertainty about what this means. I

think it is for the next Prime Minister to lead the argument as to

what the United Kingdom would be negotiating for. There is not much

that is heartening about this, this is not where I wanted to be, I

wanted a remain vote, but what is heartening about this is that the

current Prime Minister David Cameron has said he wants team UK, a

negotiating team for the kingdom, not just comprising the English

government, but the Scottish, Welsh, Northern Ireland and the Mayor of

London to be on that. So the interests of all parties are fully

and properly represented. Just pick up on one of the points made from

the audience, do you understand the frustration of what the options are,

going with whatever the UK negotiates or going down the

independence route? Is there a middle way of achieving it? The

European Union is a fluid organisation. It was already a

multispeed Europe, some countries in the euro, some countries in the

Schengen free movement area. Some countries former member states of

the European Union. Some countries like Denmark and Greenland, which

was part of Denmark have different Halation is within the main part of

Denmark and in agreement. A lot of options need to be carefully and

exhaustively looked at. This will take a very long time. Anybody who

wants to move quickly from Brexit to a quick fix it is unfortunately

going to be disappointed. These will be long, difficult and protracted

negotiations. The important thing is, the Prime Minister has made it

absolutely plain that he once the First Minister of Scotland, Nicola

Sturgeon and her Cabinet, of which Fiona is a key member, to play a

full role in those the gauche agents to ensure Scotland's interests are

more than adequately, properly and interested represented in those

negotiations. Would Ruth Davidson act as a broker between the two?

It's a role for governments. It's the role for opposition ministers

like myself and Ruth Davidson to hold governments to account.

Bringing Fiona Hyslop back in, do you think this will be a long

drawn-out process, and if independence is an option, and the

First Minister says it's highly likely there will be another

independence referendum, at what point would that be decided? When

article 50 is launched... The process that triggers the process.

You on a two-year timescale from that. It focuses the mind on that

timescale. There has to be a lot of talking before we get to article 54

leaving being lodged. It's essential Scotland is part of the process

leading up to Article 50 being lodged as well as during it. I met

with the Secretary of State for Scotland. That was the day after the

referendum. I have already spoken to the Minister for Europe, and I will

be meeting with David this week again, and again with the Secretary

of State. We are not waiting. There is no vacuum in Scotland and we are

moving rapidly. Timescale for a potential independence referendum

number two? Let's see what the options are, and if we get to that

number two? Let's see what the stage, is the only way we can

maintain the level of European influence and representation we

want, we would go back to Parliament. You decided that during

Brexit negotiations? We managed to get agreement from the Parliament

last week, 92 - zero, to precede the way the Scottish Government is

proceeding in setting out our interests, and in terms of

timescale, we would only proceed to independence referendum with the

agreement of Parliament. During the negotiations on Brexit? Let's look

at the time scales. I think article 50 could be lodged next week, within

a few weeks. We heard from one of the cabinets from the Prime Minister

position, it might not be until next year. Whatever happens, haste is not

required. We want to hear more from the audience, should leave mean

leave for the whole UK, or our politicians right to pursue a

separate deal for Scotland to try to maintain the links that currently

exist? We can hear from the gentleman in the blue top. Hasn't it

been made obvious that access to the single market will entail free

movement similar to what Norway and Switzerland have, but with

immigration being one of the main driving factors behind the Leave

vote, can we assume that's off the table? I don't think we can assume

anything at the moment. The lady in the second row in the middle. The

British electorate were not asked to vote on this middle ground. They

were asked, do you want to stay or leave? All the talk now, why were we

not having more of these discussions before we went to the British

electorate? Given that the UK has voted to leave and Scotland voted

the other way, what do you think should happen as a result? I think

Fiona is right, we need at least a period of stability where nothing

happens. Taking a deep breath as a country before moving on. I voted to

remain, but more than 50% of this country said leave. The lady with

the scarf. I think it's interesting to note that the leave vote... The

most searched item on Google after leaving was, what is the EU? There

was a lot of misinformation and miscommunication. It was not a very

good referendum and we didn't have the information. In the Scottish

referendum there were pages of information available a year before

the vote. How could this occur with the EU referendum, so quickly after

it was announced and with so little information? Tom Harris, why was

there no perspective from the Leave campaign as to what would happen

afterwards? My own view is, if you remember the last prospectus the

Scottish Government produced in the independence referendum, the

Scottish White Paper, every single page in that was subject to attack

from Better Together. It didn't help the campaign. If Leave had done the

same, and we did have information on the campaign. If Leave had done the

the website, but if we produced a similar White Paper. First,

governments produce white papers, not campaigning groups. And

secondly, every single proposal would be subject to contradiction,

and taking to bits. That's understandable but does that is what

is happening in a referendum. We went to polling day in exactly the

same situation with both sides arguing over the detail. It doesn't

look great now. That's completely unacceptable. You said anything just

to win a vote without any plan or substance whatsoever and that is

completely and utterly... substance whatsoever and that is

So did the Scottish Government. Were you at least disappointed that some

of those who led the campaign at UK level alongside you, seemed to

disappear in the days after? It's the government that has the

responsibility for calming the markets, for example. I was

disappointed that leaders of all parties disappeared and did not try

to calm the markets or reassure voters. Actually here in Scotland,

the same thing happened. Nicola Sturgeon was very visible, but all

she did at 11am on Friday morning was make people more uncertain of

the future. All politicians at senior level of all parties have let

the side down. What do you think should happen now? Are you

comfortable with the idea of politicians at Holyrood trying to

seek a route to maintain EU links? I think they are probably on a hiding

to nothing but it'll be interesting to see what they come up with. I

don't think the current standard of the EU allows for that semidetached

membership to happen. And I absolutely reject the idea that

Scotland is being taken out against its will. Scotland didn't vote, 30

million individual voters voted. It's not just remain voters in

Scotland disappointed, it's 15 million throughout the country who

will be taken out of the EU against their will, but that is democracy.

Jackie Baillie, if that's democracy and its UK wide vote and we should

accept it in Scotland as elsewhere why is your party back in the

Scottish Government in the route they are taking? I think this is

probably the biggest political event of my lifetime and it's created huge

uncertainty, whatever side of the argument you were on, economic,

constitutionally, politically, and we should take the time to consider

our options. I recognise it was a UK vote, but I also recognise within

the UK, Scotland, Northern Ireland, London, Manchester and Cardiff all

voted differently. No doubt in my mind there is an impact on the

economy. I hope the politicians in the Scottish parliament as well as

in the UK Parliament take action to stabilise the markets and currency.

Because these have real consequences for jobs, employment, pensions and

mortgages. And that's happening now. To suggest we can simply do nothing

isn't right. Equally I think we should take time to consider all the

options, and there are myriad ones, and it doesn't necessarily mean to

be something that has happened before. Let's look at the options

available to us. Just as I would support Nicola Sturgeon going round

Europe talking to the leaders of European nations, so I would urge

her to equally be part of the UK negotiations.

Just to be very clear, in considering all the options, does

that mean Labour's policy of not having another referendum in the

next five years is now up in the air? Our manifesto commitment is

very clear. We will doubt the second independence referendum within the

lifetime of this Parliament. Hold on a second. We have taken a huge

decision. I do not think any politician should rush to judgment

about being definitive. We will do this and we will do that. I think we

need to keep all our options on the table. An independence referendum is

the Government's preferred decision. I want to listen to the people of

Scotland. It has not changed but it might change. The majority of people

ruled out a second independence referendum because they felt it was

divisive. To be honest, I would want to keep options on the table. I

think we should not rush to any decision just now. We have an

enormous consequence to consider as a result of this. There is a clear

difference between the Scottish Labour Party and the Scottish

Conservatives. We do not support the Scottish independence referendum.

Under no separate senses would we support the break-up of the United

Kingdom. Hang on a second. Just yesterday, whilst that is your

position, yesterday, Ruth Davidson said the UK Government should not

block a referendum. That is not stopping it. Let me be plain about

what Ruth Davidson said yesterday. The Scottish Conservatives will

resist any attempt to introduce a second independence referendum bill.

We will resist that. If she uses the majority she may well have, together

with the Greens... There is the world of difference between

politically resisting a second independence referendum are going to

the courts to have the courts rule that a second independence

referendum should be declared unlawful. That is what the Spanish

did. When they did that, it resulted in a million Catalans marching

did. When they did that, it resulted through the streets of Barcelona. We

did. When they did that, it resulted do not want to dance on the head of

a pin. For the Tories to claim somehow they are defenders of the

union when we had English votes for English laws, we had a general

election and Scotland placed against England. You are in a kind of

battle. Thirdly, in the Scottish Parliament elections, a rerun of the

referendum elections. I want to follow up with a secondary

contribution on this from J Irvin, a member of our audience.

Is a post Brexit Scotland better equipped now

Is a post Brexit Scotland better equipped now

I very much doubt it. The owner talked about what is best for

Scotland. What is best in Scotland is that it stays part with full

access to its biggest market. Only 15% of our exports go to the

European single market. So, if you're talking about Scotland's best

interests, obviously they lie in the UK before they lie in the EU. I

think, if anything, the economic case for independence is far weaker

now than it was two years ago. The problem would be, I think, and I do

not underestimate the problems of winning a second referendum. A lot

of people come to this issue of independence with an emotional,

rather than an economic or rational perspective. Let's make no mistake

was the reason the Scottish Government has raised this issue

about Scottish membership of the EU is one reason only, to try to

engineer a second referendum. That is the priority with nationalists.

completely reject that proposition. completely reject that proposition.

-- Fiona. This is one of the most momentous things to have happened in

a political generation. On day one we were phoning contacts in all the

interests, whether businesses or other organisations got to make sure

we were providing leadership and stabilisation about what is required

in Scotland. The idea that somehow this was an engineer position we

in Scotland. The idea that somehow wanted, I absolutely wanted the

United Kingdom to remain in the EU. We have to deal with where we are

now. The question is about the position of Scotland and how

well-placed we are. We live in a different world, even now as we were

going forward towards 2014. The UK has had its credit rating again

reduced. We have seen immediate actions and George Osborne today

trying to reduce corporation tax to stop people leaving the UK to go and

find another site for their businesses. Are we better equipped

now to face an independence vote or not? We would be better equipped

because we have done the preparations for what is required.

Not just before 2014 going forward but in terms of where we are now, in

terms of what we can do in our operation, our interests have to be

international. We cannot be part of something that is somehow trying to

restrict Scotland's movement. In terms of access to the markets,

everybody on the Leeds side said, regardless of what happens, we will

still be a single market. -- leave. Scotland would be part of that if

that were a result that people wanted, or within the European Union

for the guided we would not be able to trade is ridiculous. People would

have two decide what kind of country we want. We want a country that is

outward looking do we want the politics, which is being brought

into play not just before the election for the EU post the

referendum? We have to shape our own future what it will be shaped for

us. On that point, is a post Brexit Scotland better equipped now for

independence than in 2014. I'm going to move on. I was going to go back

to the point about nationalism and to move on. I was going to go back

people thinking about Scottish independence from an emotional

viewpoint. Do not think a lot leave voters were from an emotional point

of view rather than a rational one. On the topic of independence, the

gentleman with the glasses for rose from the back. I believe in

independence was Scotland. The position of the SNP on this is

paradoxical. Why would we want to leave the union we are in currently

where most of the trade is, where we have had a long, social, political

union, to leave it and go into a union where they will have more

economic and physical influence on us. We either believe in

independence or we do not. Thank you very much. The gentleman down here.

Tom, I will address what you are saying about the economy, etc. I

have a background in economic development. I was one of the

management team in the development company in the north-east. I'm

English by birth and Scottish by choice. In terms of going forward,

to leave the European market, we will close the doors on a massive

number of opportunities for Scotland and the UK, not the least being

inward investment. Inward investors who have come to the UK over the

years have done so because it is the gateway to the European market. On

the question of Scottish gateway to the European market. On

independence, do you think we will be better equipped now than before?

I voted yes on the last one and I would vote yes again. That campaign

was run on a tissue of lies from both sides. It was not done for any

sort of altruistic reason. It was done to pacify the Eurosceptics on

the backbenches in Parliament to address the problems of Ukip taking

votes from the Tories in the south and to ward off a leadership

challenge. If we are going to go forward from an economic point of

view, what we need is to have an impact assessment. This should have

been done by the British government. The Scottish Government, I think, we

should be looking at what we are getting out of Europe and what is

the impact of coming out of it. It is not just financial, it is about

the people who are here as well in the health service. Thank you for

that contribution. I appreciate that. The gentleman in the front row

with the stripey tie. On the subject of independence, is it a good thing

for Scotland to leave the UK, considering the fact that the UK

provides 8 billion in Barnett Formula money and join the European

Union where the membership fee would be 1 billion, 2 billion a year. That

is a net loss to the Scottish Government budget of about one

seventh of its budget. That is a very big price to pay for membership

of a club that is an economic basket case. Thank you grow much indeed.

APPLAUSE Thank you for your contribution.

Moving on to another question. We will hear more from panel and

Moving on to another question. We audience. Stephen row with the next

question. Should Scotland formally applied for immigration policy to be

devolved? Michael Gove suggested there might be some new arrangement

where powers of immigration be shared between Holyrood and

Westminster. Let's put that first of all to Alan. I think now be very

difficult. There is no country in the world, no matter how much

devolution they have, no federal country has more than one

immigration policy. Michael Gove is the Justice Secretary in the United

Kingdom government. Surely he would know what he is talking about. That

is an assumption too far. I cannot speak for what Michael said about

immigration in the campaign. I'm trying to want to the question. The

honest answer is, it would be very difficult to have a single United

Kingdom with more than one immigration policy being operated at

any one time. Immigration in Canada is controlled by Ottawa and not by

any one time. Immigration in Canada the provinces. Immigration in the

United States is controlled by Washington, DC and not the states.

There are some exceptions. The state of Arizona has tried to run an

immigration policy, not a very progressive immigration policy it

must be said. It has tried to run its own immigration policy and being

slapped down by the US Supreme Court because it said it is a matter for

the federal government and not individual states. The truth of the

matter is that it is very difficult to see how we can have a single

state running two immigration policies at the same time. In

Michael Gove's thanks, I am not necessarily supporting Michael for

any position. His comments on the morning you referred to were

directly as a result of the proposal for the vote leave campaign. We need

directly as a result of the proposal you in the Brexit negotiations could

here is where Scottish ministers could make a play to take control or

to institute a new work Visa programme. We all say that freedom

of movement helps us because it fills gaps in the market. The fact

is, freedom of movement from the EU has not stopped those skills gap is

widening. If we'd did get control over immigration, the skills gaps

would still be there. What we need to do is attract the best and

brightest from across the world. Not just across the EU but beyond the EU

as well. The Scottish Government should say, let's institute a new

work Visa programme, sponsored by Scottish employers. Jack McConnell

was the forerunner in this. There is a precedent for the Scottish

Parliament having a say but not directly on immigration policy but

on employment policy. I want to bring a few voices in from

the audience and then we will come I want to bring a few voices in from

back to the panel. My wife is a non-EU foreign national. If the

Scottish were to run a more lenient immigration system, it will be

beneficial for me to stay here, heard to get citizenship before may

be moving back down to England. That does not seem a very sustainable UK

wide immigration policy. The gentleman behind you. Should we be

talking more about investment in services and structure of job so it

talking more about investment in is not just about free movement of

Labour but about creating good quality jobs estimate we have an

opportunity to change the way we quality jobs estimate we have an

plan our economy. OK, thanks very much. Gentleman on this side, three

rows in. Yes. Following the sharp increase in the xenophobic crime

down south, what is being done in Scotland to make sure the half

million immigrants living here and people of colour who were born here

feel safe and welcoming Scotland? OK. On that last point, I thought it

was very important that the first thing the First Minister Scotland

said on the Friday morning was to say that EU citizens living here in

Scotland are very welcome. This is their home and their cost abusive is

valued. -- contribution. In terms of what we are doing tomorrow morning

with the First Minister, we will be meeting with the consular Corps of

the European countries to talk to them about how we can make sure we

can take steps to make sure they know the practical aspects of this

are realised. So far not the same activity as we have seen down south

but we all have to be vigilant. It is a little -- also about making

sure that there are industries, like tourism, which are reliant on

migrant Labour. Of the 173,000 EU nationals who are here, many of them

are retired, many have children in my constituency. Could you have a

variation on a theme between Holyrood and Westminster?

The Canadian example is one that could work. There are different

variations. Even under devolution we have had a different system where

people want to come and study and stay here, we educate all these

wonderful young talented people and say, we will not use your brains and

abilities, and you have to leave. Somebody mentioned the point, why is

this? It's about respect for individuals, how our country is

perceived as welcoming, and make sure we have jobs and opportunities

and employment. I have particular concerns about the creative

industries where people want to come to a open-minded and outward looking

country and people think, is this the country for me in the UK? We

have to change that. The BBC does this all the time, automatically

jumping to what is a constitutional this all the time, automatically

option or solution. Let's look at the issues. I think one of the ones

on how to keep talented people here, helping them, that's a priority. How

do we maximise the option for Scotland for it to be the country we

want it to be? Jackie Baillie. I think we should take a zero

tolerance approach to xenophobia where ever it occurs. I was equally

very pleased to see the First Minister come out early on, as with

other party leaders to indicate Scotland has a tradition of being

welcoming and people are welcome here. Those EU residents already

here should be allowed to stay. This here. Those EU residents already

is their home and where they contribute. I'm aware that not just

in tourism, in my own constituency, but in the health service, we

welcome people from around the world. There is no secret WWE

Experience skill shortages. We attract those from around the world.

-- there is no secret we experience skill shortages. I'm half Scottish

and half Portuguese, born in Hong Kong. My mother went abroad, met my

father, and we have since come back to Scotland to contribute here

because I feel this is my home. Which bit of me do you want to send

back? Really? On that point, the First Minister has written to the

Prime Minister and the Conservative leadership candidates on this issue

asking that they make clear EU National 's can stay in the UK.

Theresa May has said they will need to look at the question of people

here in the UK from the EU. Is she making a mistake to take that

position? Yes. Yes she is, and that's one of the reasons I'm not

supporting her bed. I support Michael Gove. I campaigned for Rhein

remain and he campaigned for leave, but I believe he's the most liberal

in terms of the candidates, liberal in terms of reform and economic

policy. Why do you disagree on Theresa May on this issue? On the

specific issue of EU National is living in the United Kingdom, I'm

clear that all EU National is living in the UK and the moment should be

able to remain in the United Kingdom, not just for the time

being, but indefinitely. If they are here lawfully now, they should be

able to stay lawfully, as should British citizens living elsewhere in

the European Union. I am clear about that and I think all leadership

candidates are, apart from Theresa May who said something different

today. Forgive me, Jackie Baillie, but there is no need for anybody to

get on their soap box and say, what part of me IU sending back. There is

no suggestion of anyone sending anyone back. During the referendum

it was made clear by Vote Leave that the vote... But that will not live

at the Brexit result, it is the government. We were pointing at

international law. People resident here from the EU who are here

legally, there is nothing in law to suggest they will be sent back, and

there shouldn't be. But those saying they will not give guarantees to EU

National is, do you think they will be required to? When Theresa May

stud today she was not supported by a single MP on either side because

people knew it was a cynical move to help her leadership campaign and

nothing to do with the legal status of EU citizens in this country.

Hearing from the audience on this. The lady with the dark hair. The

fact you said a zero tolerance campaign on xenophobia, how on earth

could we have a referendum campaign so based on xenophobia? This should

be something that should be inherent to everything we do in politics and

in our society. The gentleman in the middle of the second row. The Leave

campaign was based and aimed at the uneducated who were given the

impression that by Friday or Monday morning, people would be basically

told they were no longer welcome here. Politicians of all parties

fell over themselves a few years ago to say it's OK to talk about

immigration without being called racist. But as soon as immigration

is raised, it's called racist. It's not extreme or racist to say people

Britain should have the same ability to manage immigration at every other

democratic and progressive country in the world has. That's a normal

thing for a country to have. Of course it's wrong, and for Argentina

's campaign were very guilty of xenophobia, I think, but our

campaign never used it. -- and Farage's campaign were very guilty

of xenophobia, I think. I genuinely think it shouldn't make any

difference whether we are more or less welcoming. The perception has

been informed by bad reporting of what the referendum actually means.

All the referendum means is that we have made a decision as a country to

remove ourselves from a type of Administration in the EU that is

past its sell by date. It doesn't mean people living here are not

welcome. I think it's very important that we hear from those who seek to

lead the country at UK level as Prime Minister that they can agree

EU citizens can stay here. Everybody apart from Theresa May has said

that, but she happens to be frontrunner. We can do practical

things. The Scottish Government along with the University of

Scotland has said that EU students coming here this summer, if they

come during the year, their fees will be paid as part of the system

we have in Scotland and they shouldn't be frightened of coming

here, because they will be welcome. Those are immediate things we can

do. We have to send out signals here Those are immediate things we can

and now that we are welcoming to EU citizens to come here and study. The

last couple of points from the audience before another question.

I'm a EU National myself and I think it's important that we remain even

if we leave the EU, so that international relationships with

Scotland are well maintained. Thank you, down at the front. Is it not

the case that Scotland's ageing population and particular skill

shortages mean we need to set our own immigration policy. It's about

skills in different sectors. That's why under the default settlement we

have been pushing for the work these why under the default settlement we

are being extended. -- the work these are. Tom Harris, do you not

are being extended. -- the work think that the lack of decent facts

in the leave campaign as a whole has left a vacuum for the media to fill

with bile? I also think the lack of facts, some of which you said were

on your website, but some have been conveniently deleted since the

result, I think people's worst instincts were played on. I don't

think that means of people voted to leave, they were uneducated, but we

are now seeing a situation, with incidents of xenophobia and racism

happening in the streets because of your campaign. I want to move on and

take another question. That question comes from Jennifer McBride.

As a Scottish teacher, I have seen the impact of harsh

Will the vote to leave the EU put funds back into Scottish education?

It was a key argument of the Leave campaign that as a net contributor

to the EU, there would be money coming back to the UK to spend on

public services, possibly including education. The NHS was on the side

of the vote leave us. Should we have more money to spend? I think the

of the vote leave us. Should we have stark relative is, we will not.

Looking at the NHS, it was ?350 million per week we would get back

to spend on the NHS, and that seems to have disappeared, along with the

bus. It's hugely disappointing because a number of people

positively voted to leave because they thought that was true. It

didn't even take 24 hours for the ringleaders of the Leave campaign to

desert that and that's hugely disappointing. I recognise

absolutely what you say about education being cut in Scotland. We

tried to resist the last budget that easily took ?500 million out of

classrooms and education across the country. And leaving is not going to

put that money back in. On this business of what was claimed, was it

a mistake to suggest all that money would suddenly be available for

public services, Tom Harris? Probably. LAUGHTER

public services, Tom Harris? Didn't you approve that campaign? I

will only be accountable for the Scottish campaign and in Scotland we

pointed out the fact that ?1 billion net is paid by Scottish taxpayers,

after all the money paid back in, after the rebate, ?1 billion net

that the Scottish parliament will now have in the next couple of years

to decide what to do with it. It could go to education or other

areas, but the fact is MSPs should not be saying black is white because

they don't happen to agree with the result. What will happen to the

money if the economy continues to decline? It's a ridiculous question

because I think the economy will get a lot stronger when we are out of

the EU and not attached to a failing Eurozone economy. Nobody knows what

the future holds. In your view what was the mistake of the bus and the

350 million? That came from the Office of National Statistics pink

book, written in black and white. 350 million is the gross figure

before the rebate. Why was it a mistake? Because it became the

centre of controversy. Instead of having a debate on how we spend the

extra money, we end up having this kind of debate... Wasn't it the

problem that it was said multiple times? Actually no, we said the net

amount was about 10 billion per year, we give that without getting

it back. After we spend every single penny the EU sends back, we still

have the 10 billion that we will have by not being in the EU. That is

a fact. The Leave campaign was sold on a lie, and that was the biggest

one, and that's why I think it was a shame. But we have got to deal with

going forward. The idea that somehow there will be enormous resources

when the UK leaves is some kind of predicated on a false premise. We

also want to be part of the single market. If you have that you also

have freedom of movement. A lot of discussion here has been about us,

have freedom of movement. A lot of either Scotland or the United

Kingdom. We have to think about the response from the rest of the

European Union. If you want access to the single market, it costs.

Norway is one of the biggest contribute as to the EU to have

access to the single market. And it's not a member of the EU. It has

access to the single market. And a different for Laois and ship. But

it has to pay to get there. The idea that we will have all these

resources suddenly available. -- different relationship. We will be

at the mercy of decisions making, and this would be an excuse to

revisit the Barrett formula. That's the money shared across the United

Kingdom. Fiona, you can't sit there and is criticised the Leave campaign

for one thing and then make up your own stuff. The Barnett Formula was

not suggested. The important thing is you cannot

cherry pick. Why be discussions with the EU member states and

institutions are important. We need to prioritise the issues, whether it

is access to the single market and what it is that matters. And.

Despite what has happened in the past and where the league campaign

has got us, we need to get the best deal for Scotland. -- believes

campaign. Lady in the lie that top. -- lilac top. The league campaign is

accused of lying. The remain campaign did nothing but come up

here and spread fear. We suffered greatly from it. George Osborne

stood and gave us a load of rubbish, absolute rubbish. You know it and I

know it. The EU is absolutely bent, and totally dysfunctional, at the

top. I have got personal experience of

it. Michael Gove, 150 600,000 or whatever it is on his expenses. How

about up the road to Maryhill, they are going with their bags to get

some tomato soup? To live the next day. Why don't we get real, let's

get real. The point I wanted to put to add and Tomkins is the point that

was made about George Osborne. -- Adam Tomkins. In the Scottish

context, 43,000 Scottish jobs could go within two years if we Brexit.

Was that a mistake? On education, that is the question a member of the

audience asked. The European Union is responsible for many things that

it has many serious flaws. Notwithstanding that, I campaign

that we should remain within the European Union. One thing it is not

responsible for is to state of the Scottish education budget. That is

the responsibility of the Scottish Government and has been since the

dawn of devolution in 1999 for that if you have problems with the

dawn of devolution in 1999 for that Scottish education budget, and I

have several, the only door at which you can lay those problems is at the

owner Hyslop's door. It is a fault of the SNP. -- Fiona. I do not think

we should understand the vote for Brexit as a vote which would trigger

the release of a huge amount of public money, either interview Kate

or into Scotland. There is one aspect of it which has been

overlooked so far and that is important. Both the United Kingdom

Parliament and the Scottish Parliament will become more powerful

as parliament if we leave the European Union, which we well. There

are significant powers that will come to Holyrood, powers

overfishing, agriculture and powers over the environment. That will make

the Scottish Parliament more powerful. That is something I think

the SNP is normally in favour of. George Osborne did not run the

remain campaign in Scotland. The principal campaigner for remain was

Nicola Sturgeon, the First Minister. All of the party leaders in Scotland

were in favour of a remain vote. All of the serious parties in Scotland,

all the parties represented in the Scottish Parliament. All five

leaders campaign together, or at least pose together. Nicola Sturgeon

campaigned for a remain vote but recognise this was not a vote about

Scotland but the vote about the United Kingdom and went to campaign

in London for a remain vote. The idea that this is all the fault of

George Osborne is a bit bone in my view. I want to say also something

about the idea about how there were not enough facts. -- a bit phoney.

There were facts everywhere if you knew where to look. If you looked at

the Economist and the Times newspaper, journalists were doing

their level best to explain the facts on both sides of the argument.

Of course some people voted with their hearts, some of their head.

That is democracy. Some people will be emotional, some will be rational.

Politics is that is democracy. Some people will be emotional, some will

be rational. Politics is a wonderful combination of emotion and reason.

The idea we should condemn this vote because of the reasons, without any

evidence at all, a tribute to the reasons why people voted. We're not

all Democrats. The United Kingdom reasons why people voted. We're not

voted to leave the European Union. We should all honour and respect

that the salt. Otherwise we do not deserve that label of Democrats. --

that result. Do you see opportunities, not to mention extra

powers that would come to Holyrood. Firstly, in terms of the question,

powers that would come to Holyrood. we got elected is government barely

two months ago. The manifesto was to take centre stage you have heard the

commitment from the First Minister. The issue and question is, where

does that leave us now in terms of where it will happen in the short,

medium and long terms in terms of powers? In terms of Scotland's

interest, remember 62% of people in Scotland voted to remain. Is that

different from wanting Scotland to remain? In terms of looking at our

ongoing relationship with Europe, even the most exiting Brexit

recognises there has to be a continued relationship with Europe

in some shape or form. What we have to do is make sure that in those

discussions are looking at those options, once Scotland's is is heard

and that is why Nicola Sturgeon had to make sure they're the early doors

she did have an opportunity to make that case. We need to make sure on

the issues that matter to us, whether agriculture, enterprise or

education, we maximise Scotland's interests. There was a big

difference. One issue around the cost element. Horizon 2020, the

brightest and the best looking forward to a future economy, we will

lose out, unless we come to an arrangement where it is important to

us. Is that more important? It may well be. That is why we have to be

at the table arguing a case. What do you say to Scottish fishermen who

were told today they would try to get the best possible deal in the EE

when they voted to come out of the Eucharist and I think SNP ministers

should be running the Scottish fishing ministry. -- be -- the EU. I

know every part of the Scottish industry voted to remain. This

amended not vote to remain. You're going to get letters tomorrow. All

right. I'm sure she will send full some supplies. One last question

from Graham. Has the establishment been fatally wounded by Brexit? By

establishment you mean...? Governments, civil servants, banks.

I genuinely think we live in hugely uncertain times. I don't know who

will be damaged out of this. The one thing I do know is the reality of

what is happening today is that people are losing jobs. OK, I know

of one young man, given an engineering opportunity in Europe

now has had that opportunity taken away. I know of one firm in Scotland

is paid in dollars has had that contract cut in half. That is the

reality. To suggest, as somebody once did, that voting leave was some

kind of antiestablishment vote. You only need to look at Michael Gove

and Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage was you couldn't get more

establishment than those three figures. -- Nigel Farage. My genuine

fear is that the consequences are not felt by them. They are felt by

working people in this country. That is absolutely something we need to

guard against. Already, many in the Tory Party, some of their leadership

candidates, had talked about reducing workers' rights. They see

this as an opportunity. I see this as a challenge that must be

resisted. I think one of the things going forward is to remember that

people will have voted leave for different reasons. I think some

people did vote leave to have what they thought was a cop asleep at the

establishment and primarily the UK establishment. One of the things

about the UK establishment is that it finds ways of reinventing itself.

It reinvents itself potentially in how the establishment made sure that

interest were protected by new Labour in the 80s and 90s. It is

reinventing itself by perhaps looking at the leadership within the

Conservative Party. That is a danger when you have a political setup and

system within the United Kingdom that preserves and promotes the

establishment and sometimes they use vertical parties at UK level to do

that. I am very refreshed that the Scottish Parliament is different and

we do not have that. We are pressed for time, in our final minutes. I

need to bring in our other two analysts. On the remain and leave,

who will be leader of the Conservative Party? I think that is

the biggest betrayal, not just to remain voters but also to leave

voters. I think the Brexit vote is a very significant shot. -- shock. Not

to be establishment but to every political party in the United

Kingdom. I have lost my leader, David Cameron. It is not the result

the Assembly wanted all the Scottish Labour Party wanted. Goodness knows

what result Jeremy Corbyn wanted! More important than that, it is a

shock to parliamentary democracy. Looking at the Scottish campaign, we

had three MSPs supporting believe campaign. We still managed to get

more than a million votes for leave. It is a huge kick in the teeth for

the establishment because people are not listening to political leaders

anymore was that that is not happening. There will have to leave

it. My thanks to the four on our panel. Thanks to you for watching.

More debate and discussion in the weeks ahead or on the BBC Scotland

news website. From all of us here in Glasgow, good night.

APPLAUSE Forces of Nature,

starting tonight at 9:00.