Election 2017 - Scottish Leaders' Debate

Tonight, with less than three weeks to go until the general election,

the leaders of Scotland's six largest parties face the voters.

Welcome to the Scottish leaders debate.

Good evening. Welcome to Mansfield in Edinburgh, where over the next 90

minutes we will explore some of the major issues in this election, with

the help of our invited audience, and our panel. On day for the SNP we

had Scotland's First Minister, Nicola Sturgeon. For the Scottish

Conservatives, Ruth Davidson. For the Scottish Labour Party, Kezia

Dugdale. Representing the Scottish Liberal Democrats, Willie Rennie.

This Ukip David Coburn and for the Scottish Greens, Patrick Harvie.

APPLAUSE We also want all of you to join in

at home. You can argue along with the debate using social media. The

hashtag is leaders debate. We will come back shortly and take opening

statements from all of Our panel, but first Jackie Bird is with the

watching press. Thank you. From the majesty of the

debating hall to be more modest surroundings of the press room or

the so-called spin room. It's here that the journalists and bloggers

and party politicians will be scrutinising the performances of

their party leaders and crafting Tamara's headlines. I feel a bit

like the headteacher. I will be gauging their reaction and quizzing

the commentators through the programme. First to our political

editor Brian Taylor. Debates like this are still pretty new in the UK.

How much can they influence what happens at the ballot box? If you

look at it this way, we are in the middle of manifesto season, the

parties are putting out lists of policies. If you like, the election

at one level is about voters choosing from those list of

policies. That is a tick box, like ordering a book online. Elections

and politics are about far more than that. They are about the unforeseen,

the unexpected and coping with the unforeseen and unexpected. That

takes leadership and character. In a way, TV debates get to the root of

that, the offer of character and the offer of leadership, the offer of

confidence that those politicians and parties are able to cope with.

What they can't foresee but what might arise. How will the

politicians have prepared? In two ways, attack and defence. Defending

what they might expect their opponents will see as weak points in

their own armoury, weaknesses in their policy framework but I'm sure

they will have also prepared attack lines are having a go at their

rivals, wounding them and bringing them down. It is gladder tutorial.

We look forward to it. Fingers poised over many keyboards. Das mag

it is gladiatorial. We will have a look later at how the headlines my

Mac. We will begin with the opening

statements. We have asked all of the party leaders to prepare one and

hold them strictly they only have 45 seconds to do it. First up, leader

of the SNP, Nicola Sturgeon. On the 8th of June you will elect

MPs to represent Scotland at Westminster. You can choose MPs who

will do what Theresa May once or SNP MPs who will stand up for Scotland.

In the years ahead it will be vital to have strong voices for Scotland

at Westminster. MPs who will keep a Tory government in check. A Tory

government that we know from long experience, will not had Scotland's

best interests at heart. A vote for the SNP will back our plan to end

the Tory cuts that are holding our economy back, is damaging our public

services and pushing more people into poverty. A vote for the SNP

will strengthen Scotland's and against an extreme Brexit and will

protect Scotland's right to make our own decisions. Now, more than ever,

it is vital to have strong SNP voices standing up for Scotland.

Nicola Sturgeon, thank you very much for that.

APPLAUSE Next we have Kezia Dugdale, leader

of the Scottish Labour Party. I voted to remain in the European

Union and against independence. Like hundreds of thousands of you. But

what we have this had Brexit and the SNP hell-bent on a second

independence referendum. You are worried about your job, about your

family's finances, their future and the rising cost of living. I want a

Labour government. The Tories will be back and there will be more

destructive than ever before. So who do you want to stand up to the

Tories? Labour MPs who understand your life, because they've lived it?

Or SNP MPs who will use every bit of Tory cruelty to exploit the case for

independence? You can reject the Tories and a second independence

referendum by voting Labour on the 8th of June. Kezia Dugdale, thank

you. APPLAUSE Now let's hear from the Scottish

Conservative leader, Ruth Davidson. Thank you. This election offers a

major opportunity for Scotland, giving us to move on from the

divisions of the past and face the challenges ahead together. Improving

Scotland's schools, boosting our economy and getting the best deal

possible as we leave the European Union. I say, we can meet those

challenges but we can't do it if we're divided. Nicola Sturgeon said

she is putting independence at the heart of her campaign. I said,

enough. Fix our schools, don't split up our country. Champion our

business, don't put a boarder at Berwick. At this election we can

send the SNP a message they can't ignore, and with your help, we can

stop them, and in so doing we can get back to the issues that really

matter. Thank you. Ruth Davidson, thank you. APPLAUSE

Now going to invite the Scottish Liberal Democrat leader Willie

Rennie to give his opening statement.

This is a chance to change the direction of the country, to build a

brighter future, to turn away from another divisive independence

referendum and a damaging hard Brexit. Instead, with our modest

penny on tax we can invest in our people. To get Scottish education

back to the best in the world again. So that people can have the skills

to drive our economy. To get people the mental health treatment that

they need, so that they can contribute as well. In so many seats

across the country, it is a straight choice between the Liberal Democrats

and the SNP. We can win those seats. We can change the direction of the

country. We can have that brighter future. Willie Rennie, thank you

very much. APPLAUSE Now it is the turn of Ukip's leader

in Scotland, David Coburn. Ukip is the party Brexit. We must

elect Ukip to the Commons to ensure Brexit means exit. Ukip wants to

expand the economy by creating new and exciting free trade agreements

with growing economies around the world. This is the only -- any

possible for out of the EU single market. Trust us to bring us out of

the EU and Brighouse on to Scotland and England. Tories, Labour, SNP and

the Greens all remain as macro and got it wrong. Ukip want sovereignty

over British laws to British hands. Ukip is a party of the British

union. We are completely opposed to a second Scottish independence

referendum. Taxes in Scotland should be no higher than the rest of the

UK. If possible, make them lower. We must be able to compete. Scotland

has decided, we voted to remain British and British we remain. Thank

you. Thank you, David Coburn. APPLAUSE

And finally, for the Scottish Greens, Patrick Harvie.

Thank you, Sarah. Scotland needs a green voice at Westminster. We have

achieved a huge number of social and environmental protections in Europe.

This will be in the hands of a hard right Tory government hell-bent on a

bonfire of the regulations, that will literally put people's lives on

the line. We also need to oppose their cuts agenda, it's destroying

people's lives but it's also a failure to invest in the sustainable

future our economy needs. All these other parties have voted for

subsidies and tax breaks to the big polluters. We need to be investing

and have a plan to invest in generating over 200,000 new jobs in

the sustainable economy. Finally, we need a social security system worthy

of the name, based on a universal Basic income. That will enable

everyone to live dignity, free from the pier fear of poverty. Everyone

has a right to that decent future and Greens will stand up for that if

you put the first Green voice of Scotland into Westminster.

APPLAUSE Thank you very much Patrick Harvie

and to all of our panellists for that.

Let's pick up on some of what you had to say. Everyone mentioned

Brexit, unsurprisingly. Nicola Sturgeon, you were warning of an

extreme Brexit. You know a million Scots voted to leave the European

Union. You talk about trying to stay in the EU single market. Should

people who voted for Brexit not vote SNP at this election? I think

whether people voted Leave or Remain at the EU referendum, at this

election they should vote SNP for the reason it will strengthen

Scotland's hand in this Brexit negotiations. We know that the

Tories are now no longer just pursuing Brexit. They are in hock to

Ukip, so they are now pursuing the most extreme form of Brexit. We also

know that will put tens of thousands of Scottish jobs on the line, it

will lower Scottish living standards, it will make it harder

for our produce and exports to get to market. So however you voted last

year, if you want to make sure that Scotland's voice can't be ignored in

these negotiations and strengthen this Scottish hand so that we can

make sure Scottish interests are absolutely at the heart of the talks

over the next few months. How does a vote for the do that? SNP Theresa

May has dismissed the plan for keeping Scotland in a single market

and said there is no seat at the negotiating table for you. How will

the assembly change that? This election gives us the opportunity to

send a message to Theresa May that says Scotland will not be ignored in

these talks. As you rightly say, we put forward compromise proposals,

proposals that would have accepted that Scotland, with the rest of the

UK, was leaving the EU but that would have kept us in the single

market. Stayed within the single market is so important to jobs and

to investment and to living standards in Scotland. That's why

the week after the referendum, Ruth Davidson in the Scottish Parliament

challenged me to do everything I could to protect our place in the

single market. Unfortunately she now no longer supports our place in the

single market. My message, however people voted last year in the

referendum, strengthen my hand to make sure Scotland's voice is heard

and proposals to protect Scottish jobs are at the centre of these

negotiations. Let's not allowed jobs and our economy to be sacrificed on

the altar of a Tory party trying to curry favour with Ukip voters.

Ruth Davidson, you were a passionate Remainer in the referendum and after

the referendum result you said you wanted the UK to stay in the EU

single market. Have you changed your mind about that? The reason for that

is I want Scottish businesses to be able to trade freely abroad. We have

heard the Prime Minister's plan of how she will conduct Brexit

negotiations that include a free trade deal with the other 27. We can

quibble about the framework that as long as Scottish businesses have

free access to that, I'm on board with that.

I can't honestly believe what I'm hearing from my right hand side.

Nicola Sturgeon, the very morning the Brexit result was announced,

said she had already instructed civil servants in Scotland to draw

up the necessary legislation for an independence referendum. She says if

you voted for or against Leave or remain, all I have seen his/her

ignoring the votes of levers and taking Remain votes. This is a

serious issue and we need serious people run the table. There will

only be two people leading this negotiation, it will be Theresa May

or Jeremy Corbyn. That is alive. Ruth Davidson said in an interview,

I think the BBC, if she would take part in these negotiations, she said

Scotland's voice should be represented by the Scottish

Government. The First Minister should play her full part. It seems

to me Ruth Davidson started out opposing Brexit but then saying we

should stay in the single market. Now she opposes staying in the

single market. She used a sake we should have a seat at the

negotiating table and now she has changed her mind. It seems to me

Ruth Davidson does everything Theresa May tells her to do, which

is why we need strong SNP voices at Westminster. APPLAUSE

Nicola Sturgeon says she wants a seat at the Brexit table, but she

want Scotland to be out of the UK and into Europe. I asked myself over

which side of the table does she want to be sat on? When it comes to

withhold it and talking about what we want to achieve here, the issue,

this compromise agreement she said she wanted to put on the table would

have ended the UK internal market. That's why it was rejected. You

can't have half of the state in the EU single market and the other

half... This is studded up the UK market is worth four times more in

trade and five times more in terms of... If you talk over each other

nobody can hear you. We heard from you, First Minister. Kezia Dugdale,

you're campaigning for Jeremy Corbyn to be elected Prime Minister in less

than three weeks' time. Do you think it was -- if it was him in Brussels

negotiating Brexit it would be better than Theresa May? I want a

Labour government and Labour Prime Minister but I can't let these two

get away with what they're saying about price cut. Brexit is just the

excuse the First Minister was looking for to have a second

independence referendum. After the EU referendum she told us if we had

a referendum, Scotland would get to stay in the European Union. Now she

tells us we might have to reapply or she might settle for the Norwegian

option. She doesn't about this. She's all over the place. Whatever

gets us independence is the one thing she will go for at the end of

the day. APPLAUSE MODERATOR: Let's takes some

questions from the audience. The gentleman in the checked shirt

appear. I just wish Ruth would learn to differentiate between access to

the Single Market and being part of the Single Market. North Korea has

access to the Single Market. It's not the same thing. There is a

gentleman in a grey jacket just here, microphone will be with you a

moment. We will take a point from this gentleman in the third row. The

only national party in my opinion back can take on the Tories against

hard Brexit is in fact the Labour Party. The Scottish, no matter how

many seats the Scottish Nationalist Party in Scotland there will still

be -- they will still be a small party in Westminster and the only

party back can take on the Tories, therefore, is the Labour Party and

the Jeremy Corbyn. Let's take one more contribution

from the back row but there is a gentle man in a shirt and tie in the

back row. We voted to stay in Europe, however there wasn't that

much information going around that we really debated because a lot of

people just had a one-sided argument. Now the vote has been

completed I think England would vote to go the other way if they have the

opportunity. Do you think they should have the opportunity before

the end? That leads as neatly onto the leader of the Scottish Democrats

Willie Rennie because it is your policy to have another referendum

but there are a lot of people, even those who voted remain, and say that

looks like being sore losers, you can't have another referendum if you

don't like the results. What we are seeing is because it is such a

monumental decision of the British people should have the final say on

whatever deal is agreed between the Government and the European Union,

because this could have quite a dramatic impact on our security,

jobs and environment, even on funding for the NHS. It would be

reasonable for the British people to decide rather than a small number of

Conservatives accepting whether it is a deal that is good enough for

the United Kingdom. I think the British people should have the

option to reject a bad deal. I think that is reasonable. We started this

process in a democratic way, we should finish it in a democratic

way. APPLAUSE

David Coburn, for Ukip. You said in your opening statement it was

important to elect Ukip MPs, or maybe even one Ukip MP, to make sure

that Brexit happens the wake you like it. What do you not like about

Theresa May's plans as we currently understand them? Let's be frank,

Theresa May and Ruth Davidson were both Remainers and the Tory party

wanted to remain within the European Union. Ukip need to be there to make

sure that that happens, and only if you've got Ukip there can you be

sure that that will happen. Everything you've heard the Prime

Minister says it is the EU referendum which laid out the terms

for the Brexit negotiations, including leaving the Single Market

and ending freedom of movement, what do you disagree from that? First of

all today the talk about perhaps extending the fishing limits. We

want a 200 mile limit, they are still talking about 25 miles. We

don't want that, we want the full fishing limits for Scotland. That's

a big business and we need that money and we need that for

employment. They are flimflam in about this because they have put a

lot of stress on them and they've started putting a lot of debate on

it but Ukip need to be there to make sure that happens. Will also need to

be there to make sure we get out of the single European market. The only

way we can get our own trade deals is to be out of it. Then we can go

around the world getting our deals with other countries without having

to differ to 27 other countries and that will bring jobs to Scotland and

that is absolutely essential. Thank you for that. Let's bring in

the co-convener of the Scottish Greens, do you think it's feasible

Scotland could still stay in the Single Market and still be part of

the UK? Various people have explored options for that. If the UK

Government had showed any willingness at all to even negotiate

or explore what the options might be and how they could be put into

effect we might be having a very different debate. What's going to

happen after this UK Parliamentary election is a process by which UK

Tory ministers want to take the power to rewrite huge swathes of the

laws of these lands without proper Parliamentary scrutiny. Many of them

arguing for that bonfire of the regulations. Even some of the

actions our councils take trying to look after the quality of our air,

some of the most polluted air in Europe is in Scottish cities and

those European laws, many of the Tories are arguing to abandon those.

When we talk about access to the Single Market as well you will hear

the Tories only saying access for big business, access for business to

trade. The Single Market is so much more than that, it's one of our

rights, right of free movement, it's the legal protections, social,

environmental and workplace protections and if you look at some

of the free trade deals that all these people are talking about

around the world, so many of them have bedded into them the ability

for big corporate interests to sue governments for having the nerve to

try to protect their citizens. That is not an agenda that will benefit

Scotland or the rest of these islands.

APPLAUSE MODERATOR: Thank you. Let's go back

to our audience and see what they made of that. The gentleman in the

front row. You've got to combine the thoughts about the free market with

free movement. I can't understand how we can cope with cutting out

free movement. How is the NHS, the universities, the service

industries, the farmers - how are they going to manage without free

movement of people? APPLAUSE

MODERATOR: Ruth Davidson, the Conservatives have committed again

in the manifesto to keeping immigration to the tens of

thousands. How is that going to work for the economy, particularly the

Scottish economy which needs immigration? First of all to answer

the question the gentleman raises, the situation in the health service

predates by a long way the vote that we took last year. For example, the

Royal College of Nursing said between 2009 and 2012 the 20% cuts

to nursing training placements which happened while Nicola Sturgeon was

health Minister, the cut in doctors places have really affected us and

will go on to affect us for many years to come. To be fair to the

Scottish Government they try to recruit more GPs of them -- last

year. This isn't a EU problem, it is a problem made in Scotland. There is

a specific policy of reducing immigration below 100,000. Do you

agree with that? Net immigration, yes. You do agree with that, you

think there are too many people immigrating to the UK at the moment

and want to reduce it? We need an immigration system that is trusted

and when you lose trust from people that is when you have social unrest.

If you are talking about the difference between net immigration

and emigration, for example there are currently 438,000 overseas

students in our universities but because some come in first year and

leave after their degree it is not counted in the total. What I want to

see is Scotland to be the most attractive place so we attract the

brightest and best. Despite having a third of the landmass of the UK and

8.4% of the population we only attract 4% of immigrants to this

country. Those are UK Government figures and it is true. National

records for Scotland's recently published the figures on inward

migration to Scotland, Scotland has 8% of the UK population, last year

we had 7% of the total oversee migrants coming to Scotland, check

the figures. The fact of the matter here is the proposal the Tories have

put forward in the manifesto, which I am astounded to hear Ruth Davidson

support, would be devastating for the Scottish economy. Immigration

isn't an easy subject for politicians because people have

concerns. But politicians have a duty to be honest about this. When

we talk about migrants, when it is people from this country going

overseas we talk about expats but when we talk about migrants here we

are talking about people working in our hospitals, people serving us in

our restaurants, we are talking about our friends and our neighbours

and the language around immigration I think is shocking. Now, we have a

need in this country to grow our population. If EU migration was to

be ended over the next 25 years. Nobody is talking about ending it.

We would see are working age population fall while our pension

age population is due to go up by 50%. That would be an economic

catastrophe. I think it's disgraceful we have a Tory party

that plays to Ukip and in doing so... I have always said we are a

welcoming country... APPLAUSE

I have always said that... I have always said... This is the point at

which... Nobody can hear you when you are talking over each other. She

is putting forward a strong delegation. Stop it! Stop it! You

are talking over each other, letters commonly go to David Coburn on the

immigration reduction. Can I just say we want a

points-based system, the fairest way to bring in people and you can bring

in people from the old Commonwealth as well. It is a good idea and we

base it on the people we need, no reason we can't bring people in if

we need them but the difference of being in the European Union and not

is that with the European Union we cannot choose, it is open-door

immigration and we can't control the numbers of people coming in or who

are, or if they are terrorists... Let Kezia Dugdale have her say. Let

me finish. We want to have the choice to bring in the right people

into our country and make sure they are good citizens and will integrate

in society. David Coburn, you have made your point. We should welcome

them because there are 180,000 EU nationals in Scotland today on the

first thing a Labour government would do is guarantee their right to

stay. APPLAUSE

MODERATOR: Do you then... We don't want to get rid of them. We know

your point, we have heard from you. David, Kezia Dugdale, is it the

Labour Party's policy to reduce immigration to the UK? We don't have

a cap and we have recognised the rights of EU nationals to stay in

the country because of the tremendous conjugation Ben May, they

work in our hospitals and businesses and many of them have worked here

for years and the last thing we should do is treat them like

bargaining chips, which is exactly what is happening here. -- the

tremendous contribution they make. APPLAUSE

MODERATOR: Willie Rennie. Just up the road from where Ruth was brought

up is one of the best universities in the world. Now, about a fifth of

their staff come from outside the United Kingdom from the European

Union. About a fifth of the researchers come from the European

Union at crucially students as well come from the European Union. What

they are proposing with their extreme Huybrechts it is undermining

one of the best universities in the world and I'm astonished about what

Ruth Davidson has said. Last year during the referendum on Europe she

called Boris Johnson a liar on three occasions. Now she's standing with

him arguing for an extreme Huybrechts it. She's talking about

the opportunities that it presents to this country. -- hard Brexit. If

Boris was lying then does that mean Ruth is lying now?

APPLAUSE MODERATOR: Very quickly, Ruth. I

will use a specific example, it is shameful he is trying to

scaremonger, EU nationals living here will not have their status

changed. Research money and... Why has it taken a year to come to that?

It's astonishing. In the manifesto research and development money is

going up. I am answering the question... Research and development

money is going up, in terms of students, it's part of net

migration, 438,000 currently here and they don't go into the figures.

You are wrong on the council you have used. I will have to move on

the debate at this point. The other issue which is of course dominating

this campaign is the question of whether or not there should be a

second referendum on Scottish independence. Unsurprisingly because

the election is happening only a couple of months after the Scottish

Parliament voted in favour of having another referendum. Nicola Sturgeon,

is this election about whether or not we should have a second

referendum? Is a vote for the SNP saying you do want another

independence referendum? This election is about whether Scotland's

future is decided by the Scottish people in the Scottish Parliament

ought by Theresa May and her wince Minster government force of our

future should always be in the hands of the Scottish people. I think

Scotland should have a choice at the end of the Brexit process because

the alternative to that is that we simply have to take it or leave it,

or we don't get the chance to leave it, we have to like it or lump it no

matter how bad the deal turns out to be, even if Theresa May ends up

walking away with no deal. So I believe we should have a choice and

I think that's fair and democratic. But there is the other opportunity

in the election, which is to give Scotland the opportunity to

influence Brexit negotiations. That is why I say again, no matter how

you voted last year, no matter how you voted in 2014, if you want

Scotland to have the strongest possible voice in these negotiations

vote SNP and strengthen Scotland's and.

APPLAUSE MODERATOR: Now, I understand why...

I understand you don't want to make this election on referendum on

whether or not we should have another referendum but a vote for

the SNP is voting to say you want a second referendum. I don't think I'm

making any secret that, I've just set out the position, it was in the

SNP's manifesto for the Holyrood election last year and we've won

that election with the biggest share of the constituency vote than any

party had the.. The Scottish Parliament endorsed that position,

so this is about and democracy. The fact of the matter is when Ruth

Davidson talks about independence in this campaign she is using it as a

smoke screen. She says I talk about nothing else. The truth is she talks

so much about independence that I can't get a word in edgeways to talk

about it. I've got a Tory leaflet here. This has come through

everybody's door. It's a 4-page Tory leaflet and it mentions an

independence referendum 26 times. It doesn't mention the NHS ones, it

doesn't mention education once, it doesn't mention Tory welfare cuts

once, it doesn't mention the removal of the pensions triple lock once.

Ruth Davidson is using independence as a smoke screen in this campaign

because she knows the Tory record and Tory policies are toxic.

APPLAUSE Ruth Davidson. It is true you are

making independence absolutely central to your campaign. It is in

the Block capital letters of every Tory leader I've seen. May I say

something? No you may not, she is asking me a question. No, no, the

question is the Ruth Davidson. There's a simple way, if people want

me to stop fighting independence, there is a simple way to make that

happen. Take the second referendum of the table. Do what you promised

the people of Scotland you said you would do and respect the result. I

stood here with you on a platform just like this a year ago, and you

looked down a camera and said to the audience, you promised the people

there was no change in support for independence, there wouldn't be

another independence referendum. Everyone can remember you standing

that before the election site, don't worry, it's safe to vote SNP, if

there is no change in support for independence there will

be no referendum. My manifesto... You came out and you are back at it

again. You only want one thing. This is the only one thing you've wanted

in your entire political career. They said no. The country said no

and you will listen to them. Let's go to somebody in the audience. Vote

for the Scottish Conservatives we can stop her. BOOING

There is a lady in the back row with her hand up. I seem to remember Ruth

Fred Davidson before the last election saying we would have to

vote no to stay in the EU. Things change. -- Ruth Davidson before the

last election. I think it is shameful Scottish Labour and the

Scottish Conservatives are using the independence question to hide behind

their actual manifestos. APPLAUSE And the chap at the end of the road.

Yes, you sir. I'd like to know from the First Minister how she'd like to

fill in the Budget deficit of 15 billion that has occurred. It's

unexplained, I'm not saying we should either have independence or

not, but I would like some abject fiscal honesty on the way that you

are running this campaign. That is probably a question for a

different election. But let's take somebody else. A lady in the middle

there. Is part of the reason why the

Conservatives are talking so much, not talking about the NHS and

education is because that's the devolved issue that's your

responsibility, being in power in the Scottish parliament. You should

be looking after our hospitals but you're not, you're banging on about

independence all the. I would like to ask your broker

question. First I would like to say, you think your perceived obsession

with independence might cost you your seat in this election question

at second gap like to ask, the NHS, you say you've ploughed millions

into it. I'm a nurse. I can't manage on the salary I have. I have to go

to food banks. I am struggling to pay bills. I want you to explain to

me, do you know one area where that money has gone. Can you tell me,

because I can absolutely assure you, nurses are seeing none of it on the

ground floor. APPLAUSE

And I say something quickly? We will get to discuss the health service

later quite specifically. Nicola, she talks all the time about

independence, but she's not, she wants rule by Europe by European

bureaucrats. She's not interested in rule by Holyrood or Westminster, she

wants to be ruled by Brussels. So whatever she's saying is nonsense.

Patrick Harvie. You began by asking what is the

central issue in this election, and of the many people I've been

speaking to, I think at one level people are feeling pretty tired with

the number of votes there have been in the last few years on the

Forsstrom it is made, whether it was vote no to stay in Europe or Vote

Leave to get 350 million extra for the NHS. I think people are

understandably feeling pretty cynical all of that. But many very

many of them are raising the issue is the UK Government has been

responsible for. Whether that is cuts to the welfare and social

security system, things like the family cap and the rape clause, the

inequality in our society pushing up house prices, that's not something

we can solve just with a building programme was that we need to

provide more housing, but there's so much more about the inequality in

our economy that needs to be fixed and that the UK Government is

responsible for making worse. As well as that, we have people

struggling on poverty wages and people both in and out of work are

being exploited in this incredibly unequal society. There's a huge

amount that we need to change, that the UK Government is responsible for

and I want to be putting forward positive ideas, like a universal

Basic income, that would make our society more equal in the first

APPLAUSE APPLAUSE

Why then, Patrick Harvie, are you standing only three candidates in

Scotland in this election, if you feel so passionately about what

needs to be changed? Is it because you don't want to split the

pro-independence vote in some constituencies could you not find

enough people to stand? I regret the fact we don't have more candidates

to stand in this election. We are committed to our hard work in

getting councillors around Scotland that they had more councillors

elected than ever before. Right in the middle of a local election

campaign, when other parties are trying to turn that into a proxy for

the independence debate, local democracy really matters, we were

committed to that. Right in the middle of the campaign, Theresa May

in contempt for democracy, decided to call a snap election. A party

like ours cannot knock on the doors of millionaires and billionaires.

What we can do is knock on the doors of our target seats and we're

working very hard on those. I think we have the best chance we have ever

had of putting a Green voice in Westminster to represent Scotland.

APPLAUSE Kezia Dugdale. The party manifesto

is clear, you try and block a second referendum on Scottish independence

but the Scottish Parliament has voted in favour of it. How can you

democratically justify not allowing it to happen? The Labour Party

manifesto we are publishing tomorrow Scotland's most clearly against

independence and an independence referendum, because of the ?15

billion worth of additional cuts that would, that. If you think live

under the Tories is bad, imagine what it would be like under

independence with ?15 billion of cuts yet come. I can't ask the

people to vote to be poorer. My job is to stand up for poorer

people, to stand up for the economy, and that's why the Labour Party will

say no to a second independence referendum. Under any circumstances?

If a majority SNP government voted in favour, you would still vote no?

?15 billion worth of cuts, I cannot ask people in Scotland to be poorer,

I won't stand for it, I will always vote against the second independence

referendum. There is an argument for saying people shouldn't be given the

choice. We spent two and a half years debating it and we said no.

People want to move on from that. CHEERING AND APPLAUSE

And you said after the 2016 referendum Scotland voted for both

unions... I have to stop you there.

Sarah, it took 44 days the Nicola Sturgeon to publish her bill on

another independence referendum. It took 15 months for them to write

their mental health strategy, which is way out of date. It took two

years for us to persuade them to expand nursery into education, fit

two year olds. It took six years for us to persuade them about people

premium. For the SNP it's always, always independence. Today Brexit is

the excuse, every other day it could be any excuse at all. We need to

cancel this second divisive independence referendum, because

it's dividing our country and setting us back. Here here. APPLAUSE

Thank you very much to our panellists for that just now. We

will be coming back for more debate here, but first we are going to head

over to the press room, where Jackie Bird is waiting with some analysts.

Thank you. The journalist here aren't the only wanted something to

say about the debate. You have been voicing your opinion on social

media. How is it playing out? It's not a surprise to find that

many of the people tweeting at home agree with the party they voted for.

They asked for neutrals to get involved and I'm not sure any were

neutrals. They had some very strong views. One that may be some slap up

I have my iPad. It says, based on my timeline every party leader has done

an excellent job in opening exchanges and every other one has

been terrible. There have also been a lot of

interest from down south. This is the Scottish leaders debate and

there is one in Westminster as well. Someone from the spectator saying

anyone who wants a decent leaders debate should watch this one, better

quality of leaders and debate. Thank you. Talking of the spectator, we

have a columnist for the Spectator and a former special adviser for

Scottish Labour. If I can ask you, much of the debate seems to have

centred on differences of opinion between Nicola Sturgeon and Ruth

Davidson. Early on Nicola Sturgeon accused Ruth Davidson of doing what

Theresa May tells her. Was that a direct it? Ruth Davidson is always

at her most awkward, I think, when she was forced on the back foot to

defend UK Conservative government policy. There has been no exception

to that tonight and immigration and Brexit. It is an area where other

parties piled into attack Ruth Davidson and her party. She is much

stronger and happier when she can put Nicola Sturgeon on the back foot

about plans for a second independence referendum. We saw that

earlier tonight. Nicola Sturgeon dominated the first part of the

debate, Ruth, with an assist from Kezia Dugdale, who has been very

good thus far. There are six politicians on that stage but it is

the Ruth and Nicola show so far. All road seem to lead to the issue of

indyref2. Yes indeed. This election are supposed to be about Brexit.

That is why Theresa May called it. Nicola Sturgeon has been accused of

being obsessed with independence. She didn't mention it in her opening

remarks. Kezia Dugdale did, Ruth Davidson did... You are a special

adviser, would you have advised her not to mention indyref2 question

that no, obviously indyref2 will come up in discussion. It is not

what this election is about. This election is about Brexit. How much

did Kezia Dugdale, how much I she influenced the proceeding so far?

Not as much as I would have liked or expected. I do not think the format

is doing her many favours. This is the Nicola and Ruth show, as we

heard. Kezia Dugdale has three very anxious meant to compete with. David

Coburn are very anxious man. I think that is the difficulty for her. What

you also seem to die, I think, is the strategy of Nicola, which was

very much a core vote strategy. Nothing new, quite formulaic and

then get the jab into and Ruth. In 2011 in the Scottish election,

everyone on the platform for Iain Gray was going be the beneficiary

and that is happening against my, people are turning on Ruth. Is it

working? To some extent. I think Nicola is a past mistress of talking

over people and getting under their skin and irritating them. I think

Ruth has to be careful about that and Kezia Dugdale needs to push away

in past David Coburn. Lets see what happens. Let's go back to the

debate, round two. Thank you very much for that. We are

all sitting a bit more comfortably. For this portion of the show we are

going to take the question is not from me but from the audience. The

first question that we have is from Louise Perry.

Where does the fault lies the recent failings of numerous Iain schools?

First Minister. The responsibility for Scottish education is mine and

the Scottish's government. I make no bones about. There is much to be

very positive about in Scottish education, we have a new curriculum

in place which has been praised by the OECD for the record numbers of

young people coming out of school with higher passes and advanced

higher passes. Record numbers of young people going into university.

But we have made very clear we want to raise standards in our schools

even further. And we want to close the attainment gap. That's why we

have a new national improvement framework. It is why we have a new

attainment fund, ?120 million now going directly into the hands of

headteachers, to give headteachers the ability to do things that they

think can help raise standards and close the attainment gap.

Interestingly, when not doing as the Tories are planning south of the

border, investing in schools by taking away free school meals. We

are going to protect free school meals for primary 1-3 pupils,

because that helps learning. We are also extending childcare, because of

the evidence says it is better quality early years education that

helps to improve attainment in schools. We absolutely focused on

making sure we improve education and get the challenges we've got in

education addressed, that's why I said, have said repeatedly, for me

as First Minister, it is my top priority. You've had ten years.

You had ten years, you've been in charge for ten years. There is a

widening gap between the richest and poorest kids, that is your record as

the SNP. The gap between the richest and the poorest is not widening. The

gap between the richest and poorest is narrowing. That is not true, name

one source that proves that. That's why we are investing more in

education. You can't provide a source because you know you have

just told a porky, that gap is as big as ever. University access, the

gap between the richest and poorest is closing. What about in schools?

She can't name it! That is a narrowing of the gap. We want to go

further, we've been in charge for ten years, which is why I'm proud of

the fact we have record exam passes in schools, we've extended early

years education and we are going further. One in five kids leaving

school... People would have been having to pay to go to university if

it were for you. Let's go back to Louise who asked the question. You

asked who falls it is for the failure in literacy and numeracy in

schools. Whose fault do you think it is? The question was not answered,

firstly. Will go around everyone else. The curriculum has been panned

by teachers, I'm a teacher myself, I teach maths. You talk about record

high and advanced higher, that will happen if you lower the standard of

exams, the standard of exams is disgraceful. The national five does

not look like national great credit. I'm only speaking about maths

because that is my area. If you lower the standard of exams then you

would see passes presumably rising. OK, let's take that point and go to

Ruth Davidson. APPLAUSE

Firstly, thank you for the question. It is astonishing to listen to the

First Minister of Scotland wanting applause for finally getting round

to cleaning up the mess her party has been in charge of creating for

the last ten years. There is lots of things we need to do differently in

our schools. First of all there was really good intentions behind

Curriculum for Excellence but we have to be honest enough to say it

is not working and that's way will want a full review of work and

educational system. The teachers haven't got a fighting chance of

teaching this. Every time we fall down an international ranking the

Scottish Government's solution to that is to pull us out of doing the

tests so we don't know how we are doing against other countries. We

also have the issue where we don't have independent inspectors for our

schools and we don't have enough and we are so easy trying to help out

because Curriculum for Excellence was hard to introduce so they didn't

do any inspections for several years. We need to empower teachers,

we need to hire more because we have 4000 fewer than when Nicola Sturgeon

came into power, particularly in maths and the Stem subjects, and a

quarter of maths training places are not filled. I've repeatedly asked

the first minute to get inexpensive new ways to get staff into schools,

not wedded to that but there is lots more we can do. The idea Nicola

Sturgeon is sitting here and saying it is all right, I've got this,

after it fell apart on her watch is absolute disgrace.

APPLAUSE MODERATOR: Willie Rennie. Nicola is

right when she talks about investing in the early years is the best

investment we can make in a child's future. She is right when she says

that we should have an attainment fund that will invest in closing

that inequality gap as Kezia Dugdale was talking about, she's right about

all of these things. But why has it taken so long? She's been in power

for ten years and we have been asking her to do these things for an

awful long time, many years. She denied it at first and then she

accepted it. The reality is, and I have to say this, that she is so

distracted by her obsession with independence that she is now letting

our education system down. APPLAUSE

MODERATOR: I should let the First Minister come on this. The fact of

the matter is there are challenges in Scottish education but there are

also real things to be proud of in Scottish education. You've listed

the achievements, the question was where does the fault line for recent

failings and that's on new. I started my answer by saying that

response ability for Scottish education is mine and my

government's and I've not made any bones about that. There are teacher

recruitment challenges not just in Scotland but many other different

countries. We're looking at getting innovative different ways into

getting into the teaching profession, we are investing into

headteachers directly. All of these parties with the exception of the

Greens voted against the budget that put the extra money into the hands

of teachers. We are not cutting money. Yes you are. We are

increasing money to schools by ?120 million so we are taking the action

that is empowering our teachers to take the initiatives that would

improve not just literacy and numeracy but standards across

education. We are not shying away from these challenges, we are

addressing them and will continue to do so. What we find is that some of

the things we bring forward that are new and innovative, and sometimes

controversial. We suggested them! Willie Rennie opposed them so we

brought in the national improvement framework and Willie Rennie opposed

it every step of the way so we will continue to do the right things by

parents and students across the country. Let's take some

contributions from our audience and then we will get to the other

panellists, the gentleman in the front row.

I am a teacher foster good news for the SNP and bad news. I've been

teaching now, it's my fifth decade, and the problems we have started

five tickets -- decades ago. We embrace every progressive advance

thrown into schools, and what we've reached now, what we are actually

talking about, a fifth of primary students leave primary school

without basic literacy and numeracy skills. Which is not good. The other

thing is you put ?120 million into bridging the Gap and so on. But they

are not allowed to spend it on staff. I've heard of primary school

teachers who can't employ permanent staff and what they are doing with

the money, they've got loads of it, you are right, they are buying

furniture because they've got to spend it. Education is needing

completely revamping, we need to get back to making sure our children

leave primary school with basic skills, the primary teachers have to

teach just about everything and it's impossible for them to do the kind

of job they need to do so they can pass the children onto the secondary

sector where value will then be added.

Thank you very much for your contribution.

APPLAUSE There is a young man towards the

back in a black shirt. Yes. I think one of the things the SNP must be

commended for is the introduction of free tuition fees for Scottish

students. It really has made it easier for Scottish students who

can't afford to go to university to have the opportunity to go and study

at some of the best universities in the world.

APPLAUSE MODERATOR: In our audience on the

floor, the gentleman in the blue shirt. I'd like to make the point,

free tuition fees are fairly good ideologically but in a world of

restraints surely it would be better socially to provide students with

the finance so they can live at university and be able to afford

their rent. At the moment many of my friends at university have to rely

out of necessity on a part-time job, as well as all of their bank have

stomach of mum and dad to cover their accommodation costs. Surely it

would be better to invest in maintenance grants, increase student

finance, so they can actually live at university and be able to afford

to, rather than paying. There are certainly issues I think we need to

focus on, the things the UK Government should be doing to

improve the pay people get, many of those students will be working in

exploitative forms of work, as well as reducing housing costs and living

costs people have. The question about education in Scotland, about

school education in Scotland where we started, there is clearly a mixed

picture and the SNP sometimes our too ready to focus on changing

government structures, or standardised testing and these kind

of things, rather than the long-term resources that schools need. That's

why the Greens were so focused on getting them to reverse. ?160

million of cuts to local councils which run our schools in Scotland.

But look, this is not a test of the Scottish Parliament. You are not

about to elect MSPs to the Scottish Parliament. You are about to elect

MPs to Westminster. And if young people in schools are turning up

angry and spending their day hungry they are not going to be able to get

the best out of their education, and the UK Government is pushing

thousands more families deeper into poverty. It is transferring wealth,

wealth that we all generate in our economy, from the poorest third of

our society to the richest third in our society. So whatever the other

actions Scotland can take to mitigate that part it will not be

enough unless we change the direction of UK policy and make sure

we are investing for the long-term and closing the inequality gap in

our society that at the moment is limiting the ability of children and

young people to get the best out of the education that provided.

Thank you, Patrick Harvie. APPLAUSE

MODERATOR: Patrick Harvie is absolutely right, education is a

devolved issue that is controlled from Holyrood but we had a lot of

interest from our audience, and of course a lot of people cared very

much about this so it will probably influence how we vote. We were being

asked about free tuition fees, what is Ukipper's policy? Ukip's policy

is to extend free tuition to England as well, they should get the same

privilege, it is quite right. What worries me is the Scottish taxpayer

are paying a lot of money for EU students to be educated at Scottish

universities, which is depriving Scottish students of places at those

universities. I think that's wrong. I also think that it's a disgrace

that children should be coming out of school illiterate, this gentleman

is right, and not functioning properly. That is absolutely wrong.

When I was at school in Scotland it was the finest education system in

the world. We had Latin and Greek at the age of 12. If they could do that

then why not now? It might not be necessary now but they were able to.

That is relevant, like fox hunting! What is wrong is you have people

coming out of school not properly educated, that's absolutely wrong

and that's down to this lady here who has made an absolute disaster

and mincemeat of the Scottish education system.

We shall leave that therefore the moment and move on to another

question, David Morrison has a question for the panel. Should we

increase income tax to meet all social costs? MODERATOR: Willie

Rennie. Yes, sir, I think we should put an modest penny on income tax to

have a colossal effect on public services. On the basic rate of

income tax? On the basic rate of income tax, that would deliver about

?500 billion for Scottish society, for Scottish public services, we

would invested in education, nursery, schools and colleges, to

have that transformational effect because Scottish education, as we

knew, used to be one of the best in the world and it is now being judged

as just average and that's not good because it drives our economy, a

good education system, to provide the skills for our workforce, but

also for our companies to create that economic wealth, it's that

virtuous circle. So, yes I would, but I'd also make sure we invest in

mental health services because mental health services need that big

step change. You know that children in this very city can wait up to two

years, two years, for important mental health treatment. I think

that's a disgrace, they should be getting the support now and that's

why we need to invest in mental health services too. So yes,

absolutely, put a modest penny on income tax to have a colossal effect

on public services. MODERATOR: Kezia Dugdale, should we

increase income tax to cover social costs? We should and the Scottish

Parliament now powers of has income tax which matters because we are in

a position to choose in Scotland to do things differently from the

Tories. What the SNP have done is take Tory cuts and pass them on. It

doesn't have to be this way. So yes, I think we should use the income tax

powers we have. This is a general election, tell us what you would do

with UK wide tax rates. They are devolved to the Scottish Parliament

soaked in Labour's manifesto you will see we are committed to the

same tax policies from last year, 1p on the Brexit great as Willie Rennie

described and a 50p rate on the top rate of tax asking people who earn

over ?130,000 a year to invest in the education system. We heard from

teachers earlier. I need teachers every day who have to bring in their

own resources to the classroom, school budgets creaking at the seams

and vacancies going unfulfilled. It is about closing the gap and

investing in young people so they can be everything they want to be.

We have to return to having the best portable education system in the

world. We can't do that on the cheap so we have to ask the richest people

in society to pay their fair share in society to pay their fair share

-- the best possible education system in the world.

Kezia Dugdale mentioned a 50p top rate of tax. Is your strategy you

believe you would vote in that Westminster for the rest of the UK

but when you had the opportunity in Scotland, you didn't? We were given

advice if you just did that in Scotland without the Scottish

Parliament having the power to tackle tax avoidance, to set the

rules to stop people transferring income to capital gains, we would

potentially lose money from that and nobody would set the tax rate if you

knew you would lose money. That problem doesn't arise at the moment

across the UK, so we support the restoration of the top rate of 50p

tax. Labour had the chance of a 50p top rate of tax may didn't do it

until the last few months. On tax more generally, I Dodig we should

raise the basic rate of income tax, because one of the big issues over

the next few years is the squeeze on living standards. We saw inflation

rise to 2.7% the other day. We have experts say we are going to have

inequality rising at the fastest rate since the days of Margaret

Thatcher. That the lowest third in society are going to fall by 10%,

because of the policies of the Tory government. I Dodig we should be

asking low and middle income earners to pay more. But I also don't think

we should be handing a massive tax cut to higher taxpayers. The Tories,

whilst they are freezing the value of tax credits, working tax credits

and child tax credits, are still going to hand a massive tax cut to

the richest people in society. I think those are the wrong

priorities, and if you want MPs to stand up for the right priorities in

Scotland, vote SNP to make sure you get them. APPLAUSE

Some of our audience are very keen to come in. First, Ruth Davidson.

You probably won't hear Nicola Sturgeon Ameobi about much today but

one thing we do agree about is people are on low incomes, they

shouldn't have as much of that money taken away in tax. That's why we

raised the threshold from 5500 to 12,000 500. It's why we've raised

the minimum wage, brought in a new national living wage, why people at

the lowest Ntep the biggest pay rise in 20 years. We believe people are

better at spending their own money than having the government spend it

for them. The issue about tax is, yes, income taxes and business taxes

paying for what we have. The reason we have a deficit is we bring in

less tax than we pay out. We are adding debt to our children. We need

to do it in a way that is equitable and covers the costs we have in our

society. Nicola Sturgeon raised an interesting issue. For 13 years the

Labour Party didn't have eight 50p top rate of tax and three months

before they left office, they brought one in. When it was reduced

to 45p in the pound, we brought in more taxes. I know it sounds

counterintuitive but it is true. The issue we have in Scotland is we now

have diverging taxes. We have signed at Gretna that's as higher taxes

here. We have a contracting economy in Scotland, we are one quarter away

from recession and the rest of the UK's growing at 2% a year. I'm not

sure is coincidence. That's absolutely true. Let's take in the

audience. The gentleman in the blue jumper in the second row. Nicola

Sturgeon, your paper last year said there were additional taxpayers in

Scotland than your paper estimated to raised ?50 million. What would

that do to a Budget deficit of 15 billion? That paper said we could

potentially lose money if we didn't... It was one of four

options. The point of this is, Ruth talks a lot of nonsense about

Scotland being the highest tax partner in the UK. We are not giving

higher rate taxpayers a tax cut, which means they are paying not more

than they pay just now but more than a counterpart in in England to about

?7 a week. That's less than the cost of a single NHS prescription.

Descriptions are free in Scotland, you have to pay for them in England.

If you have young people going to university here, you don't have to

pay ?27,000 of tuition fees. If you have an elderly parent needing care,

you get free personal and nursing care. Actually, taxpayers in

Scotland have the best deal of taxpayers anywhere in the UK,

because of the policies of the Scottish Government. APPLAUSE

Kezia Dugdale. Nicola Sturgeon heard this woman in the front row here,

this nurse told her she has to go to a food bank because she doesn't have

enough money. Nicola Sturgeon, you voted against a pay increase for

nurses less than take that this man ten days ago. Why wouldn't you ask

richer people in society pay more taxes that nurse gets the pay rise

she deserves? You voted against it. You know because of the policies of

the Scottish Government and newly qualified nurse in Scotland is paid

more than a newly qualified nurse in England. A starting salary in the

NHS is paid ?1000 more. She can't feed her family. She can't feed her

family. What I have also said as the pay freeze that has been in place

because of Tory austerity being impose... It's your fault. We have

always accepted the recommendations of the NHS pay review body and we

always will, because that's the right thing to do for NHS staff.

Let's go back to the nurse in the front row, what you think of what

you heard? They don't seem to be listening. There's thousands and

thousands of nurse positions unfilled. The reason for that is

because it's so low paid. It's not a sustainable income. We can't live on

it. I have a lot of sympathy... APPLAUSE

With what you're saying. We've had in the public sector, not just in

the NHS, in the last few years, a 1% pay cap. The reason for that has

been austerity policies. We've tried to protect jobs in the NHS and the

wider public sector. When inflation was pretty close to zero, that was

one thing. As I said a moment ago, inflation is now writing. I am

absolutely clear that that pay freeze, that pay cap is not

sustainable moving forward. We need to work with trade unions and

negotiate with trade unions for fair pay, not just in the NHS but across

the public sector. That I think is the difference between the Scottish

Government under the SNP and the Westminster government under the

Tories. We listen to what our public sector workers are saying and seek

to act on what public sector workers are saying because we value those

who work in the public sector. We have actually... We have not heard

from David Coburn. How many years have we had 1%? Tell me how many?

Too many. How many? Since about 2008. Exactly. There is no pay rise.

How do you expect somebody to live on that? We are now having to

strike. Do you think that's what nurses go into nursing for? I'm

telling you now, I would rather leave nursing, as would many of my

colleagues, than have to strike. You have no idea how demoralising it is

to work within the NHS. Don't come on your announced visit, come in in

the middle of any data any ward, any A department, come in and see what

we're up against. My sister works in the national health service...

APPLAUSE My... My sister works in the

National Health Service, so believe me, she tells me exactly what she

thinks about those matters. But if you listen to me, I'm actually

agreeing with you. We've had a really difficult period with public

spending. We've had that policy in place. We've also, in Scotland,

unlike the rest of the UK, had a policy of no compulsory redundancies

in the NHS and the wider public sector, to try and protect jobs.

That's why there have been many people in the NHS in England who

lost their jobs, that hasn't happened in Scotland. As we seek

inflation rising, that policy is no longer sustainable. I accept that. I

also think the freeze on benefits is no longer sustainable, because one

of the biggest issues in this election campaign that has not been

talked about enough is the fact that more and more people are being

pushed into poverty. I'm determined that the SNP will stem that. The

audience are very keen to come in. We'll come to you in a moment David,

right on the floor here, a gentleman in a blue shirt. I have Asperger

syndrome and I live in Fife over in Dunfermline.

One of the biggest tax dodgers as the, which the Tories have given

massive tax cuts to allow to continue... I also, I'm also

struggling, I've had to go on a mental health waiting list to wait

for somebody. I believe that if we could recoup some of these taxes

back from the richest of society and we could reinvest it in the NHS, we

could hopefully get people back into work, people who have autism and

Asperger's syndrome like myself, into work and to beat help for

people. And also, to touch upon the benefits as well, I found it utterly

disgraceful having to go to a medical and be asked, have you ever

wanted to commit suicide? I feel utterly, I felt utterly demoralised

coming out that medical. And after being told I could a ?30 cut in my

benefits, as well. Thank you very much for your contribution. APPLAUSE

I want to take that point. Other questions came in from the audience

saying, why should we even be talking about tax rises for ordinary

people, higher earners, when corporations don't pay their fair

share? That's why we need to crack down on this. We are taking more in,

they set up a new department within HMRC to try and cut down on it. But

the gentleman is absolutely right, when it comes to Amazon over the

water in Dunfermline and the subsidy given by the Scottish Government,

when it pays low wages. We need to make sure corporations pay their

fair share. It is really tough. They work very hard not to. We are

cracking down on it. We are absolutely committed to it. Yes,

there is more to do but we have made advances and we are taking in a lot

more than the previous government did stop pro-why is it then that you

have more tax inspectors... Taking vulnerable people in society, where

as you have less tax inspectors checking the works of Amazon, Apple

and Google and all the other companies. I feel that I'm under

surveillance 24 hours a day, seven days a week, does that help people's

mental health? No, it doesn't. Thank you for that. People feel more

effort has gone into scrutinising individuals and corporations.

Patrick Harvie. It is undeniable that we need more progressive

taxation and I think people on an MSP salary can afford to pay more

tax. The Greens have shown we can do that without increasing tax the

people on low or average incomes. We can break the basic rate and

actually cut the tax belt that people on rowing comes up on, while

ensuring wealthy people pay a bit more. We did manage to persuade the

SNP to scrap a proposed tax break... We managed to persuade them... Do

you mind? We managed to persuade them to scrap the tax break for

higher earners. We will need to push them to go further than that. But it

is absolutely about more than just income tax. I have very little

sympathy for people who are now arguing that they want a policy for

England and Wales should have as ex-income tax rates if we are not

willing to have progressive taxation here in Scotland. It is about more

than just income. The gentleman here is absolutely right about

corporations. Dia Ruth Davidson say they have been racking down on

corporation tax, they have been reducing the rate of corporation tax

year after year after year, whether it was a Labour government, a

coalition government or a Tory government, that corporate tax

contribution has gone down and down and down in a race to the bottom. So

we absolutely need to be looking at the wide range of forms of wealth

and income inequality if we want to be serious about raising the revenue

needed to meet the social need that we all have. Every single one of us

depends on public services. And if we are not willing to make a

contribution to that, a fair contribution, I think we should all

be ashamed of ourselves as a society. I think very many people do

want to ensure that happens. The UK and Scottish governments need to be

changing direction to make it happen. OK, thank you for that,

Patrick. APPLAUSE Nicola Sturgeon, you want to

specifically address the points raised. This is a Westminster

election for someone of the biggest responsibilities of Westminster

government is the Social Security system. The gentleman here has just

mentioned a policy I think Ruth Davidson should be asked to justify

tonight wasn't disabled people are having ?30 a week removed from their

benefit. They are having their Motability vehicles taken away.

Disabled people are being dragged to assessments, where they are treated

like criminals and asked to justify themselves, all while the Tories are

proposing even more productions to corporation tax and tax cuts for the

richest in our society that it is utterly shameful that the policies

of this Tory government are driving more disabled people into poverty. I

really do think this debate should not enter night without Ruth

Davidson having to defend these outrageous, despicable, cruel and

callous policies. CHEERING AND APPLAUSE

Ruth Davidson. Firstly, there are more people on PIP than DVLA. It has

more focus on mental issues. Nobody is having ?30 taken off them... They

are losing ?30 of week. Explain what it is. A different form of benefit

to help you with the extra need to have. If you have a physical or

mental disability, if it means you can't get yourself to the shops, it

helps pay for a taxi to get you very back, for example. More money is

being put into... And this is where there is great work being done,

closing the disability implement gap. People at this gentleman here

say they want to get back into employment but there are barriers

into employment. That is why everybody who is getting help with a

jobs coach, helping people with their needs, extra money put in help

folk do that. We wanted close that implement gap. People are having

their Motability taken away. 700,000 more being issued than 2010, that is

true. -- 70,000 more than there were in 2010. 800 people a week getting

them taken away don't exist stubbornly there are more than there

were before. What we're trying to do is ensure there is a big gap right

now between people who have disabilities and employees feel they

are, I don't know if it's scared or they don't feel confident enough to

support them, whether people don't have access, we are investing money

to make sure we have that disability implement gap, so we can try and get

people to have the dignity of a job, because they want to be independent,

they want to work I don't think that's a bad thing. We are coming to

Woods into the programme and we don't have time to get into new

issues. We have time to get into new issues.

Modern governments have discovered if they put reasonable taxes on

people they simply move and take their talent with them. I would say

it would be very, very bad, appalling for Scotland, if our taxes

in Scotland were higher than those in the rest of the UK, we would

simply be uncompetitive. I don't want to see the happen. But on the

other hand the committee on the European Parliament which sounds

luxurious and fun, it is about looking into shady places where

corporations stack their money. Believe you me, I've heard a few

interesting tales and I think there should be some serious looking into

that department and that is not being done, thanks to the Tories.

Again, if we have higher taxes, taxes in Scotland you can forget

about being competitive, we need people in Scotland working to build

their businesses and making sure they employ their fellow Scots. That

said, David Coburn, thank you. I'm afraid that is all we have time for.

Thank you to our panel and politicians for joining us tonight

and to our audience in Edinburgh. Before the end of the programme

let's get reaction from Jackie and her guests in the press room.

Thank you, if you thought the debate in the hall was pretty impassioned

it is pretty intense here too. Was a people here are filing the stories

you will read tomorrow. Let's meet a trio who have had plenty to say over

the last 90 minutes. We have the political editor of the Daily Record

David Clegg, the author and columnist David Torrance and the

editor of the National. What do you think of the dynamic tonight, David?

The dynamic started being between Nicola Sturgeon and Ruth Davidson

which is a change, usually these debates in previous years are

between the SNP and Labour Party but this time it's clearly between the

SNP and Conservatives. The most memorable moment of the night

certainly was the nurse who really gave Nicola Sturgeon a much more

difficult time than any of the politicians did on the panel

tonight, the nurse talked about not being able to afford food on the

salary of a nurse, and really brought the point home over quite an

extended period. I've never seen Nicola Sturgeon looks so

uncomfortable on television before. David Torrance, that's what is so

good about debates like this because you don't know what is going to

happen and often something very nuanced and personal can turn it.

And all the more effective as David says, coming from somebody in the

audience as opposed to another party leader. It also shows you how

jumbled up different policy responsibilities get in elections

these days. In the era of devolution people no longer differentiate

adequately between devolved responsibilities like health and

education and reserved issues, which is after all what UK general

election is supposed to be about. It all gets bundled up into the same

mix. Perhaps we shouldn't even bother trying in this context,

because it doesn't seem that voters do. Who do you think performed best,

Richard? Nicola Sturgeon performed best but certainly she was a clear

winner in the first half. Do you feel she was under pressure, from

most notably the nurse in the audience? I think those were

difficult questions, she's faced difficult questions about nurses'

pay and education and in education she accepted responsibility and said

she's dealing with it, both of those issues are devolved issues and it's

perfectly fair to discuss them but they are not the issues we are

voting on just now and it should be pointed out that another main issues

for this election. There are other issues that should have been

discussed as well but the Labour Party in particular were more

concerned with the SNP's record as government in Holyrood rather than

austerity policies to do with the Tories in Westminster. I have to

hurry you, we are heading towards the end of the programme. That is

what the journalists think, a quick word from the Scottish Conservatives

and the SNP. To be a fly on the war at this table. Your leaders, as I

think we have gathered here, have dominated the debate tonight. -- fly

on the wall. Ruth Davidson can't really escape the fact she was a

Remainer and she has had to defend Brexit. That's democracy, the people

of the United Kingdom voted to leave the EU, the important thing is how

to get the best possible deal. That is achieved by the Scottish

Government working together with the UK Government. The problem is the

Scottish Government has no interest in getting a good deal for the UK,

they want to use this to engineer a second independence referendum,

that's what this referendum, election is about and Nicola

Sturgeon made it clear, every vote for an SNP candidate in this

election is a vote for a second independence referendum. Joanna

Cherry, what about the plea from the member of the audience and her

statement to Nicola Sturgeon, don't come on your announced visits? How

did she react to that? Did she react well? Did she rebut what she was

accused of cosmic she explained to the nurse that under the SNP

Scottish Government in Scotland they have done more to protect jobs in

the NHS than anywhere else in the UK. Even the BBC says the NHS in

Scotland is run better than in England and Wales. The unfortunate

truth is if the lady in the audience lived in England or Wales she would

have worse pay and conditions. The real story tonight is that Ruth

Davidson this evening, the mask has slipped, when she is put under

scrutiny about the real issues in this election, the record of the

Tory party in London, she goes to pieces. She was unable to defend

Brexit this evening, she received a lecture on the audience and Nicola

Sturgeon on the benefits of immigration and went to pieces when

called upon to defend the Tories' toxic policies on pensioners. I will

have to stop you there. Thank you. We can talk to another couple of

journalists. The Scotland editor of the Guardian and Lindsay from the

Press Association. We've spoken a lot to write about the four main

parties. What about Ukip and the Greens? -- we've spoken about

tonight. What was their influence if anything? David Coburn is very much

a bystander in this election and on this occasion it's one of the few

moments he will have in the limelight to make any attempt to

interject Ukip into this particular election. Are not clear he had any

success, he was the person shouting from the fringes. Patrick Harvie is

a more experienced performer, he's used to performing at First

Minister's Questions and is a seasoned campaigner and is much more

able to present a much more rational focused party position for the

Scottish Green Party. They really didn't get to contribute a whole

what. It was really all about Nicola Sturgeon versus Ruth Davidson,

particularly at the start on Brexit and the independence referendum,

Kezia Dugdale coming in strong on education and health. Willie Rennie,

a few cheers for him on his Brexit stance and a few cheers for him on

issues like mental health and education as well. Thank you. Let's

tuk-tuk two of our politicians, very animated, Jackie Baillie, during the

debate tonight. What about Kezia Dugdale's impact -- let's talk to

two of our politicians. Did we learn any more about Labour Party policy

over the last 90 minutes? We absolutely did and what we heard

strongly from Kezia Dugdale was a complete rejection of a second

device of independence referendum, that came across very cruelly but in

addition to that -- clearly. The focus on the economy and jobs and

investing in the NHS was interesting. What we heard tonight

from the audience was the real lived experience of teachers talking about

failing standards, of nurses talking about having to use food banks. That

exposed the record of the SNP and indeed the Tories who remain the

party of austerity in the United Kingdom, and frankly I think this

election has to be about more than the Constitution. It doesn't

surprise me the SNP and Tories just want to talk about the constitution,

because it saves any focus on their failing policies. Did any of Willie

Rennie's points hit home? Absolutely, I'm a proud man tonight,

he was pitch perfect on our core message, which makes us distinct on

this election, which is we want Scotland at the heart of the UK and

the UK strong at the heart of Europe. He carried the room on

things like the Brexit deal referendum question and particularly

the lack of investment in mental health and the SNP's failure to

address education problems in our education system in Scotland. I

think we are going to be joined by our political editor Brian Taylor

who is hotfooting it from our other press room. There you are. The

people who have spoken to the politicians say that their man or

woman did well. In your view who is going home happiest? The sharpest

debates were on issues that are devolved to Holyrood, which is

nowadays income tax and education, struck by the battles also between

Ruth Davidson and Nicola Sturgeon and also with Kezia Dugdale over who

stands up best for Scotland. I was struck on another point to bear in

mind right at the beginning, we had a strategy from the Conservatives

saying last year in the Holyrood elections they can form the

opposition, Willie Rennie saying that at this election they can form

the opposition in Westminster. We now have Kezia Dugdale joining the

list in effect. She said if the polls are right the Tories are

winning and she says she wants a Labour government but in reality

seemed to concede it was extremely unlikely, and therefore positing

herself as being the party that would stand up most vigorously

against the Conservatives. That is an intriguing element in this

contest. We have Andrew Nickell of the sun, filing your copy for

tomorrow, if I can interrupt you. What is your topline? The nurse is

the big story, I would love to know who she is and more about her. It's

disappointing this is not a Westminster issue being discussed,

that is what will hit home with people watching TV at home. Do you

think we learned anything you tonight? No, I don't think we did.

LAUGHTER Consensus breaks out in the press

room. That doesn't happen... Let's end tonight with the final word from

Sarah Smith. Come over and join me, you've emerged from the heat of the

debate, how would you sum it up? It's interesting people saying we

were discussing issues that are devolved, we are but the issues the

audience wanted to talk about that they sent the most questions in

about and the way the Scottish Government has performed does inform

how people are going to vote, people care passionately about education,

health and how the SNP have done over the last ten years and that

will make a difference even if it shouldn't because they are devolved

issues. On the things like Brexit which are of course Westminster's

responsibility, we saw the sharp dividing line is, Nicola Sturgeon

keen to tell us that a vote for the SNP will put a strong Scottish Voice

into the negotiations, with the other parties disagreeing. We saw

the different positions, Ruth Davidson was uncomfortable being

reminded of her Remainer past now she is supporting Theresa May's

version of Brexit but I agree with some of your other commentators, it

was the audience who were the stars tonight with their questions. What a

passion in the audience so that they will be reflected in the weeks to

come, do you think? It could be and it's so much harder for the

politicians to bat off a question from somebody who has real life

experience and passionately cares about it like that. They can ignore

me as much as they like and they quite often do but they can't ignore

a nurse or a man worried about his benefits in the front row telling

them what life is like out there. That is why the election matters

because these policies change people's lives. The politicians say

they want to hear from real people but that can be a blessing and

sometimes occurs. Occasionally on the campaign trail they afford them

as much as possible. We have a couple of weeks to go, thank you to

Sarah. That is all we have time for tonight. Thank you for joining us in

Edinburgh for the BBC Scotland leaders debate 2017.