The NI Leaders' Debate

Just 2-macro days before we go to the polls, tonight, politicians take

questions from the studio audience. Welcome to the Northern Ireland

leaders debate. Good evening. So come on Thursday,

we are off to the polls again, this time to elect MPs to a new

Westminster parliament. The tone, if not the thrust of the National

campaign has been touched by the terror attacks in Manchester and

London. But the central theme of this election here and in the rest

of the UK remains the exit from the European Union. I'm sure we can rely

on those topics coming up in this, the Northern Ireland leaders debate.

Our line-up, Robin Swan is the new leader of the Ulster Unionist party,

the leader of the social Democratic and Labour Party is Colum Eastwood.

Naomi Long is the Alliance Party leader, Sir Jeffrey Donaldson is the

leader of the Democratic Unionists, Nigel Dodds was due to join us but

his mother has taken ill unfortunately. And John O'Dowd of

Sinn Fein complete the line-up, standing in for Stormont leader

Michel O'Neill who we are told has lost her voice. The questions

tonight come from the studio audience, most of them grassroots

party supporters but we also have a spring fling of voters who have yet

to make up their mind how to vote on Thursday, we hope tonight's debate

will help them decide. If you would like to join the discussion, you can

tweet us. We extend a warm welcome to viewers on the BBC News Channel

and BBC Parliament. We hope you will find the next hour illuminating. Let

us begin. The first question comes from Andrew Wooster who is a cook.

Andrew? Within this election, the constitutional question has once

again overshadowed many important issues such as health and education.

Do you agree that it should not be treated as a referendum on our PJ

the UK? Thank you, Andrew, the constitutional question never far

away, Sir Jeffrey Donaldson, your party leader said the manifesto

launch, Northern Ireland's membership in the UK is the most

important thing in the party, the motivating factor behind all we do

in politics. Clearly for your party, this is a referendum? It is not a

referendum but you are right, issues like health and education are

important and how we fund our public services is important. The huge

subsidy we received from London, being part of the UK, if we joined a

united Ireland, we would lose that. Our public services would suffer.

You and your family, every time you visit a doctor, would have to pay 50

euros every visit. You would not get a free NHS available at the point of

contact. There is so much we stand to lose if we leave the UK. So I am

passionately Unionist but I agree this election is about more than

just the union. It is about health and education, it is about getting

storm up and running again quickly. We are prepared next Monday to go to

store Montt and form a government without preconditions because the

people we represent want us to get on with governing Northern Ireland

and provide political stability. But if everything is under the shadow of

the constitutional question, people won't believe that you are

interested in all those other things? That is not what they are

staying on the doorsteps. The doorsteps that I have visited, and

they -- there have been thousands of them in this election, yes, they

want to see Stormont up and running again but they are talking about

health and members of their families, waiting 18 months for

operations. They are talking about schools funding. I'm sorry, but

these are important issues to people on the ground. Yes, the union is

important and I'm passionate about it, and staying in the UK. But I

also recognise, as someone who has been a member of Parliament for 20

years, that the people I represent also want to see their politicians

dealing daily with the bread and butter issues. Is it a danger, as

the question suggests, that this is seen as a referendum? I think it is

not just a danger, I think it is a wasted opportunity because people

are voting in the election this Thursday to choose people who can

then go and represent them in Westminster, be an effective voice

their concerns but also people who will support the re-establishment of

the institutions at Stormont which is hugely important and that is the

issue that people focus on, and not the issue of the border question but

it is fed by lazy politicians, not by the public. The Jeffrey Donaldson

is right, when you ask people what worries them, what is keeping them

awake at night, it is not the border question, it is the fact they can't

get an appointment to see their GP, the fact the hospital waiting list

is longer than it used to be. It is the fact they are not sure they can

make ends meet and what they are not doing is worrying about the Union

but I have to say it is a bit disingenuous to say on one hand that

those are the things that worry people on the doorstep if almost

your entire campaign is built around the border question. So I think

people need to take responsibility on this side of the table for

actually putting out the issues in the manifesto commitments that will

actually make a difference to those other issues and that is what we

have been focused on when we have talked about progressive politics.

It is about more than just the border question. It is actually

about talking about how we deliver a fair and more just society and those

other things we are committed to talk about in every election.

APPLAUSE Colum Eastwood? The question was,

was this a referendum on the Union and it isn't, this is a referendum

on who is going to be in government on Thursday and Friday. I know who I

would like to be in government. I would like to see a Labour

government, probably a Progressive alliance that the SDLP would

support. We don't want to see another Tory government. Are you

ready to be disappointed? I hopefully won't be disappointed,

what you are seeing in the polls and everything is things are narrowing.

The question and you asked about health and education, if we have

another Conservative government, we will see more and more squeeze on

the health and education budget. A Tory government, can you imagine

trusting them even more with your health service? I don't trust them.

I don't want to see them back in government which is why we are going

to go, if we are elected, on Friday, Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday, and

vote against a Tory government, stand up against them. Of course,

with the DUP, they will support a Tory government and John's party

won't do anything at all. In fact, their vote will be like a proxy vote

for the Conservatives because they would turn up, that is the truth.

John O'Dowd. The record shows that the SDLP and MPs don't turn up

Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday, maybe every other

Wednesday and Thursday. Their attendance rate is nearly as bad as

ours and we are proud abstentions. 78%, Mark Durkan, 80% for Margaret

Ritchie and 38% for Alasdair McDonnell in the 2015- 2017 session.

You have to get your facts right. Millions of pounds in expenses, they

don't claim it, they have not taken them in the last parliament. Excuse

me. But I wanted to get your facts right, that is all. But I'm

correcting Colum Eastwood, they don't turn up apart from every other

Monday, Tuesday and perhaps the Wednesday. That's not true. In terms

of the question, the constitutional question is important because it is

about how we govern ourselves and what we see our future and how we

want to it. I don't recognise the state that Sir Geoffrey Donaldson

talks about where there will not be a health service, where you have to

pay 50 euros or ?50 to see your GP. It's called the Republic of Ireland.

That is a fact. APPLAUSE We want a new vision for a new

island. I want a health service across the island of Ireland. I want

to see a health service delivered free at the point of use. As Sir

Geoffrey Donaldson's party and other parties who would be involved in the

governance of that new island want to see a health service, want to see

health care free at the point of delivery, then that is what we can

achieve, so we don't want to see two failed states join together, I want

a new beginning with services right protected in law, where our LGBT

brothers and sisters are equal, where people's language rights are

protected and their cultural rights are protected. This is a Westminster

election. The question is why is the Constitution involved is because

partition has failed, nine decades after partition, it has failed so

let's look for an alternative. Let's's look towards a society we

can all be proud of, a society we can all be part of and a society,

and this is the most important thing, where our rights will be

protected in law. APPLAUSE Robins one, is the constitutional

question Lower down your priority than that of the DUP? -- Robin Swan.

Andrew's was asking about health and education and specifically the

well-being of the people of Northern Ireland and the important thing is

to get the Northern Ireland assembly up and running again because that is

where those problems are solved. APPLAUSE

That is where four the five politicians sitting round these

benches can get back and working and after the 8th of June, we have three

weeks to do it. This election is being fought on three issues, I

think, the constitutional position of Northern Ireland within the

Union, an Brexit but also on the restoration of our devolved assembly

and that is the important thing we need to get out and try to work

together as the five parties that are here, to get the institution up

and running on the 9th of June. With regard to our position in the Union,

John has said Northern Ireland and we are a failed state but we are far

from it. I think Northern Ireland is a great place to live, a wonderful

place to live and if this election is about our position in the Union,

I'm proud Unionist and I'm glad we are there but what we have to do for

the 18 MPs on Thursday, we need the 18 MPs to take their seats at

Westminster, who will argue Northern Ireland's position. Two years, while

Brexit is being triggered, that is a crucial time for Northern Ireland

but more important is the three years after that, where we position

how Northern Ireland actually works and how we get the devolved and

further devolved legislation back to the Northern Ireland assembly. Let

me go back to Andrew and see what he things about what he has heard.

Andrew, are you convinced that this is not a referendum? I'm convinced

it's not a referendum but it is a shame to hear some of the

politicians still indicating that it is. It sometimes seems like the

assembly election and the council election, Westminster, they are all

put over partially as referendums on the constitutional question, whether

it is meant to be or not, that is how it comes across. It is

disappointing because, you know, there are so many other issues. With

Westminster, who is going to form the government, how is Northern

Ireland going to have influence? What is the foreign policy going to

be? There is so much more we can talk about than the issues we have

talked about for the last 18 years. Geoffrey Donaldson, another quote

from Arlene Foster in the manifesto, there is a need to counter the

Nationalist surge, of course, the Nationalist surge in the assembly

elections in March which brought Sinn Fein within 1200 votes of the

DUP is the largest party in Northern Ireland. That kind of rhetoric is

exactly what Andrew is complaining about. I don't think it is because

Gerry Adams has said, "This election is a barometer for a border poll".

So Sinn Fein regard this election, that if they do well, they will go

to the Secretary of State and ask for a border poll. I believe aboard

a poll would be very destabilising. Therefore, we have to respond to

that. We can't sit on our hands and pretend it isn't happening. And yes,

we are saying to the Unionists, you need to turn out and vote, and why?

Because the Union is important to pay for the health service, to pay

for our schools, for all the public services. But they did turn out in

March, you got 250,000 votes. And we are pushing for a greater turnout in

this election and we will get it. And John O'Dowd, whatever the result

of the election, you will still push for the border poll? Yes, we will

campaign for the referendum because as I said earlier, partition has

failed and we need to move forward to an alternative and we see that as

an agreed Ireland, a new island where unionists, Nationalist,

Republicans and others have their rights protected in law but when

Jeffrey Donaldson talks about the union being important, economically,

I'm happy to debate it because this idea we have a subsidy, everyone in

this room pays taxes and they leave these shores and go to the Treasury

and then they send some back. Let's have the debate on that. You get 10

billion back will stop but why don't the Treasury released the figures in

terms of corporation tax and how much corporation tax is leaving

these shores, how much income tax and all the other taxes citizens

pay? Let me just make this point. Quickly. Who is the union important

for? His is the nine rights, to LGBT communities, ethnic minorities,

language speakers, all those rights are in Britain but if the union is

so important, why don't we have those same right here? A couple of

people from the audience. Just to John O'Dowd, you said partition has

failed so do we take that to mean you have given up on negotiations to

start the assembly again? No, no, we see island in transition and the

assembly as part of that. I believe the assembly and the executive is

the way forward. I would much prefer to see ourselves governing

ourselves. We will have our disputes and arguments but when the executive

was working, it was working well for citizens here so the assembly is an

important part of the democratic process. I will stop you because

everyone needs to get involved. Defined they partition has failed

but the truth is, the real failure people are talking about to us on

the doorsteps is the failure of the main parties to be able to

re-establish the executive. APPLAUSE People gave both of those parties a

mandate to do that back in March. And we are still sitting without an

executive. Hold on, John. We are still not in a position to get the

executive reform. I don't believe the problems are insurmountable if

people are committed but the more you listen to what people are saying

in this election, the more you doubt whether the main parties here are

actually committed to re-establishing devolution. I

understand we will talk in more detail about that later. Colum

Eastwood, please. We can get the Assembly back up and

running, if people are up for understanding that there are people

here who are Irish and they aren't going anywhere, that this is the

only part, if you think about it in a purely unionist term, this is the

only part of the UK that doesn't have marriage equality, the only

part of the UK that doesn't have a minority languages act, but all of

those things can be resolved. But I don't think there is anything wrong

by the way with having a constitutional position. I have one.

And there's nothing wrong with it and sometimes we talk about it as if

it's a bad thing. We shouldn't be afraid to have that discussion.

Let's have it in a democratic and peaceful way, the kind of Ireland I

believe in is one where we build up Northern Ireland, where we

eventually have a united Ireland, we work towards that but we need to use

the Northern Ireland Assembly and the institutions... Do you like the

sound of that, Robin Swann? No, on the counter. I like the sound of

unionism I am presenting and it's a positive progressive unionism that

can work with Colum Eastwood and Naomi Long and John and Jeffrey to

bring about a Northern Ireland that delivers for the people of Northern

Ireland. There is a positivity, there is a unionism now coming out

that shouldn't be seen as purely orange and green and that's

something that's coming out through this general election. We are seeing

Scottish candidates standing as unionists, Welsh candidates standing

as unionism. Because there is a change, there is a revitalisation in

what is the United Kingdom at this minute in time because of Brexit and

how it's going to redefine itself and where we are going to position

our self. We are going to move on to our second question, from John, a

business development manager. Who isn't complicit in terrorism, how do

we address the causes of terrorism? OK. This is referring of course, not

least to the events of the terrible events of the last few months, two

attacks in London and one in Manchester two weeks ago. Naomi

Long, do you feel complicit in terrorism in some way, in any way?

No, I don't. And I think that it's unfair to suggest that when people

take decisions to inflict violence on other people that in some way you

can blame circumstances for that. I think that's a very different

conversation to the one which looks at for example how people are

radicalised and how we intervene to prevent that happening. Ultimately I

believe in personal responsibility. There will be many young people who

grew newspaper the same community as me, some of whom choose to get

involved in paramilitary activity, and some of whom didn't. Often we

had the same upbringing, the same experiences but made different

choices, you have to be accountable at the personal level for the

decisions you make. But I think we have to be willing to have the wider

conversation about what it is that leads people to feel such despair

and worthlessness in their lives that they're willing to risk, in

particular the cases that we have seen recently in places like London

and Manchester, they're willing to squander... Is it always despair and

worthletness? It is a sense of pointlessness in many cases, if you

look at the typical people who have been radicalised, they're often

people who are loners, who don't socialise well, who find themselves

isolated and get a sense of purpose from being involved in

organisations, a sense of importance, and a sense of purpose.

We need to look at that very carefully, look at the circumstances

as to how they've become radicalised, listen to young people

who have become radicalised and have turned away from that and find

solutions. So, it's not as simple as saying we are all complicit but we

are all responsible for finding the solution and we can't deny personal

sposhlt, we have to hold people to account for their own actions and

it's right we should do that. But at the same time as a society we need

to make sure that the values that we espouse, we protect that, we don't

allow those who want to drive wedges in our community to do it, because

we know here in Northern Ireland better than anyone when you start to

divide communities it is fertile recruitment ground for those who

want to dehumanise others and that is right across... On that very

point, thank you, on that point, John O'Dowd, the republican moment

espoused and practised violence, what do you think we have to learn

from that, are those lessons you want to learn? Well, the republican

movement wasn't on its own in terms of violence in this conflict. I am

asking for your own movement. I am not answering for any movement, I am

answering for Sinn Fein, an elected party. I am Sinn Fein, MLA, standing

as a candidate in the Westminster elections with a significant

mandate. Are you denying your past? No, but you are being... I am

puzzled as to why you would... No, you are asking a loaded question.

When you go around the rest of the members, particularly of Jeffrey,

will you remind him of his UDR past... I am happy to do that. I am

proud to say, what about you, I can stand here and say I am proud to

have served my country in the Ulster defence regiment. Can you say the

same? Thankfully I nerve served, I was harassed and threatened and my

neighbours you were murdered by the Ulster defence regiment but I never

served with it. The question is a legitimate question from the

audience member. In terms of how we move beyond what is happening in

London, how we move beyond what is happening in Manchester, there is no

justification for what we have seen. Sorry, there is still terrorist

violence going on in Northern Ireland today. It's not just looking

at London and Manchester. And Paris. We witnessed that in Bangor. We can

come to that discussion, but in terms of Manchester and London there

is no justification for those attacks, there is no justification

for Bangor. In terms of the outcry from world leaders, world leaders

are going to have to ask the question, their actions in the

Middle East, their relationship with Saudi Arabia, who is arming

terrorist organisations around that region, those who funded the

creation of ISIS, those who created the climate of fear and despair in

the Middle East which is spreading across Europe, have to ask

themselves was the invasion of Iraq the right thing to do at the time,

despite the warnings about it? Is there continued relationship with

Saudi Arabia the right thick to do? Are we going to have to change our

policies across the globe and take into account the harm western

nations are doing in the Middle East and other parts of the world and

resolve those issues in a peaceful democratic way, rather than this

phrase of war on terror? Because war on terror means death of civilians

in the Middle East and elsewhere. Robin Swann. John needs to remember

Libya also supported terrorism here in Northern Ireland, as well. But

are we complicit in terrorism I think is the question. We are

complicit in we don't stand up against it. We are complicit if we

don't speak out against it and do everything that we can to inform the

intelligence service and to inform society that what is being

perpetrated, what is being promoted is not acceptable in any

circumstance. We need to do that and coming back to Naomi's point, yk

young people don't always have the choice and that's why we see dangers

through radicalisation of young people and that's where I agree with

Theresa May and her agenda to tackle that radicalisation at root cause

because if we can get young people and get them a purpose, that isn't

going down the valley of destruction and death, that is terrorism, but we

can focus those energies into the creative citizenship they need to

be, and that complicitness is something we all have to challenge.

It's that complicitness I think that we have the ability across society

and it's across the world and across each individual's core sense of

purpose, we have to challenge terrorism by supporting our young

people to make sure they no longer see those terrorism activities as a

valued opportunity for a way to destroy life or destroy their own

lives. Jeffrey Donaldson, we talked to John O'Dowd about republican

violence. The loyal Loyalist Communities Council has endorsed

three DUP candidates in this election, will you unequivocally

divorce yourself from that endorsement? Yes. OK. We have been

very clear, we do not accept support from anyone who is engaged in

paramilitary or criminal activity. There is no equiffation on our

part... There was for 15 minutes on Talkback today. It took 15 minutes

to get to the Sam point today that you reached straightaway. That is

not true. That's progress! We will take no lectures from the alliance

Party. The alliance Party washes it hands and says it doesn't do this

and that and yet as you know your colleague Chris Little meets

regularly with the people that you are now condemning. Yes, he does.

No. No, he doesn't. We will take no lectures from Sinn Fein either.

There is a difference between meeting people and having them

endorse your campaign. Even... One at a time. Even Donald Trump said he

didn't want the... One at a time, please. Let me speak. Thank you. We

want to work with those who want the paramilitaries to leave the stage.

We will continue to do that. We will continue to do it with the LCC

because we have got to get the loyalist paramilitaries off the

backs of the communities. You won't do that by standing back and

lecturing people and passing judgment. You have to engage. You

have to go and talk and sit and persuade people to do this. Would

you talk to ISIS? I don't see any point in talking to ISI sichlt

because they're not interested in any democratic transition. I will

tell you what I would do and it goes back to the question asked

originally. We have a watch list, the security services in this

country of people who are already radicalised. It's too late for these

people. Why do we continue to allow these people to remain in our midst

when they represent a serious threat to the security of our country and

to the safety and well-being of our citizens? Why do we have to always

wait until innocent people and their blood is spilled on our streets

before we do something about this cancer in our midst? OK. Colum

Eastwood. We are at it again. The question was about terrorist attacks

in London and Manchester. It wasn't actually, it was about how do we

oppose terrorism and its causes? The world is talking about London and

Manchester. It's a broader question. We shouldn't be trying to find a way

to fight with ourselves again about what happened in the past. Let's

focus on what's happening in Britain. We need to not have an

overreaction. Not curb human rights. Not go for a big security response.

We need to speak to those young people who are open to being

radicalised, go to where they are. We also need to understand the

context of this is also, it's not the only reason, but it's also the

fact that the British Government along with other governments

including the American Government have gone to places in the Middle

East and destroyed countries. Now the SDLP go to Westminster, speak

against that, vote against that, we are part of the movement in

Westminster to stop ill-thought out attacks and air strikes in Syria,

that's what you have to do, you have to go and speak up and vote against

those types of things. That's how you get things done. John O'Dowd,

you wanted to come back. They didn't stop it in Westminster. We did. We

stopped the attacks in Syria. I fully agree with anyone engaging

with loyalist organisations to get them to leave the stage. But the DUP

and UDA relationship is not about either leaving the stage. It's about

both of them dominating the stage. The DUP used the UDA during

elections... Nonsense. That is complete nonsense. Just take a look

at this photograph, John, which is of your colleague who is the

candidate in South Belfast, standing with someone I think you will

recognise. Someone very close... We can't see, you better tell us. There

it is. You know, so, when John lectures us... It's Jackie McDonald.

Oshg. When we get lectures from Sinn Fein there will be a story in

tomorrow's Belfast Telegraph that the Shankill bomber responsible for

the murder of nine innocent people on the Shankill road is out

campaigning for Sinn Fein in this election. Can you imagine Sean

Kelly, the Shankill bomber arriving on your doorstep? Sean Kelly is out

canvassing to promote politics in the peace process. The UDA and DUP

relationship is about remaining centre stage. The DUP used the UDA

for elections, the UDA used the DUP... How did we use them? They're

canvassing at the moment. Nonsense. Endorsing your candidates. Can I

just... He has rejected any such endorsement. Colum Eastwood, do you

share John O'Dowd's view? It's astonishing that we have a

UDA-linked organisation out promoting candidates in this

election. I am glad now... It was set up by Jonathan Powell, the

right-hand man of Tony Blair. That's fine. I am glad now that Jeffrey has

said unequivocally he doesn't want their support. It took him a long

time to do that and thankfully they're there. I issued a statement

immediately on it. Look at some of the things that went on in

Government around Red Sky and everything else, it's about time all

of us step away from those types of people. All of us challenge them to

move away from the types of activities they're involved in. I am

not sure that's happening. I want to go to the audience.

APPLAUSE. A young lady in the back row. Sorry

so interrupt the bickering! I want to highlight this is a general

election, not an Assembly election. I want to go back to Naomi Long's

point, she mentioned how we need to talk to people who have been

radicalised. I think that's a good point. We need to recognise this

isn't just an international problem, a foreign policy problem. This is a

domestic problem. This isn't a migration issue, this is people here

in our country being radicalised and brainwashed and they are being

radicalised to do things like this in Manchester and London. It's

important to highlight that we need to talk to our poen people and not

just focus on deporting people who you think are guilty. There was

another hand there. She asked the same question I was being to ask.

Just on that. There was someone who was radicalised and works to provide

counternarratives to those Islamist terrorists who wish to radicalise

young people and it's hugely important we use strong voices like

that to provide a counternarrative and to provide an alternative voice

for young people who perhaps through reasons of despair and lack of hope

actually see this as a way of gaining some notoriety. He is a

classic example of someone who can do that effectively and he is that's

voices we should be capturing. Thank you for that, now moving on to

the third question for Michelle, a volunteer coordinator. My question

would be, what are each of the party leaders going to do to ensure the

best possible deal for Northern Ireland post-Brexit? Are, the Brexit

question, of course. Colum Eastwood, Arlene Foster said that before the

pause in talks in Northern Ireland for the general election, the

parties were close to agreeing the EU exit we wanted to see. Is that

your interpretation of what was going on? It is hard to know because

the DUP came to a lot of meetings and did not engage in a lot of them

but I did see some hope in the Brexit stream of the negotiations.

We have said from the outset we need to have special status for Northern

Ireland. That means using the Good Friday agreement, it is great now we

have the European Union and the Good Friday agreement has to be

protected, that comes from a lot of the work we did in the Brexit

committee and a lot of work Mark Durkin did in the Brexit committee

in Westminster, even though the committee is full of people like

Michael Gove and everything, who wanted to leave, we still got it

through. But we have to use the Good Friday agreement, the thing called

North-South institutions, we can use them to have special recognition and

status, customs Union access, single market access for businesses. That

is what we can do at its very possible. That is why we proposed

the motion in the assembly, that is why I've been travelling around

Europe, meeting with sister parties and we have 190 MEPs, eight

commissioners and eight by ministers, that is why people are

listening to us in Northern Ireland. We would be better if we had a

government here the case and I would love the DUP to come to that

position but it is unfortunate, the DUP were absolutely complicit in

trying to drag it out of the EU and young people and people in general

in Northern Ireland voted against that vision for the future. It a

nationwide referendum. APPLAUSE Robbins Swan, many of those things

could have come out of your mouth, your manifesto talks about no hard

border, ensuring the best deal for Brexit, assurance for those in

receipt of EU funds, and the Common travel area but for you, a special

status is the back door to united Ireland? That's great because as

Colum Eastwood says, Northern Ireland's position is recognised in

the Good Friday agreement by the principle of consent. That is where

we have do locate the argument. Special status, I believe, is

something the Republic of Ireland should be looking for is that they

can continue their trade with Northern Ireland and GB, 70 yard and

80% of the trade coming out of Ireland. Wouldn't special status

will both be better? We don't need it, Northern Ireland, as part of the

UK, is leaving the EU as part of a UK wide referendum, the UK entered

the easy as one nation and it will leave the European Union as one

nation. Article 50 has been triggered though the most important

part of it is the 18 MPs of Northern Ireland going across to Westminster

and are giving our point. The best time that Northern Ireland ever

gained out of Europe was when the three MEPs, John Hume, Ian Paisley

and Jim Nicholson, were in Europe, arguing on behalf of Northern

Ireland. The best meal Northern Ireland will get out of leaving the

European Union is when they have 18 MPs sitting on the benches of

Westminster, arguing our case as Northern Ireland plc. Do you find it

hard, Jeffrey, to argue for the best Brexit case when you wanted it? No,

not at all. In fact, I believe that Brexit, the UK will thrive as a

result of having, for the first time in decades, the opportunity to enter

into new trade agreements with many countries. The world has changed

dramatically since the European Union was established. I think the

UK will do well. But you want to leave the biggest market in the

world. No, 73% of the goods that leave Belfast bought go to Great

Britain. The idea that this country is dependent upon the European

Union... Northern Ireland is inextricably linked to the rest of

the United Kingdom. That is where our future is. We sell far more

goods to GB than we do to any other, all the other countries. But you

would close down access to the biggest market in the wild, 500

million people. We are part of the best most successful economy in the

world. Six since Brexit. They want to take us out of that the join an

economy that has been stagnant in the past. Hang on, your manifesto

talks of easing of trade with the Republic of Ireland and the EU, no

internal UK Borders, maintain the CTA so you are in agreement with the

rest of the parties on those major issues. We are absolutely. You know

what we need more than anything else? We need an executive Forum to

speak for Northern Ireland. -- executive formed. We need our own

government, and with all due respect to Naomi, who gives culturing

fighter Sinn Fein, but let me nail it here, next Monday, we will be a

Stormont, ready to form a government, no preconditions. Will

you join the executive? The alliance abandoned power-sharing executive

last around. No we didn't. She speaks of the need for power-sharing

Budgie was not part of it. You are clearly out of touch. Will you share

power with us? You are clearly out of touch with what happened last

time because we have made it clear we will share power with any of the

parties. I haven't finished! Do you want to come and stand here? Origin

there will you the of representing Northern Ireland? He does not want

to talk about it. Leave the restoration of the assembly for one

minute, I'm quite sure we will come back to it. We will need to because

we need to clarify what he said about us. You will have the

opportunity. John O'Dowd, what will your body do to ensure the best

possible price Brexit deal for Northern Ireland? This is why this

election is important because parties will be seeking mandates for

the negotiations to follow. Not only in relation to the important issue

of the executive but also to the very important issue of Brexit, and

when Sinn Fein gets a strong vote, Dublin, London and Brussels set up

and listen and it has been shown that when Sinn Fein has a strong

mandate and we go to negotiations... You don't want to use your mandate.

Big deal. We're talking about using your mandate, he talks about the

Good Friday repayment. Colum Eastwood walked away from the

North-South ministerial Council which we brought proposals to along

with the DUP. You have abandoned the North-South ministerial Council, the

one body that would bring the two parts of this island together to try

to work through Brexit and you have abandoned it, left it, John, you

have left Abbott, abandoned the executive, left Northern Ireland

without a voice, you are not going to seek -- take your seat in

Stormont or Westminster. APPLAUSE The North-South ministerial Council

put together proposals around Brexit. The SDLP did not turn up to

those meetings because they abstain from the North-South ministerial

Council. That is nonsense, no, that's nonsense. We were in the

negotiation. Let me finish, you have made an accusation. I will let you

come back. The executive was putting together proposals in addition to

dealing with the worst aspects of Brexit but it was not a solution and

the SDLP at abstain from that as well. In terms of where this is

going next, this is going to be negotiated in the European

Parliament and Sinn Fein has the largest delegation of MEPs from the

island of Ireland. It will be negotiated in Dublin and the Dail,

where Sinn Fein have members. And in London, where Sinn Fein don't take

their seats. But not in Westminster, it will be negotiated... No

negotiation will take place in the four Westminster. Bringing in Colum

Eastwood. I'm glad Sinn Fein to Strasbourg at the European

Parliament. I don't think they shouldn't go, they tell me we should

not go to London but they sit in a fringe group in the European

Parliament, with people like the Communist Party of Bohemia and

Moravia. Is your influence in the European Parliament. APPLAUSE

We have 190 MEPs, in my alliance, and I meet with the leaders almost

every month. You sit with a bunch of communists, what is your influence?

When you have a big mandate you tell everyone about, you don't can use

it. The idea you would sit out this election, won this election and not

use your mandate means people panic about Brexit, you won't go and do

anything. And what could happen because of that? We will see again a

Prime Minister who wants to bring in a hard border in Ireland, a hard

Tory Brexit, that is what she wants but you won't go and count against

them. We will be there to count against her and try to get a Labour

government. APPLAUSE First of all, I think you have seen

white is so difficult to get an executive restored, when you get

hectored constantly. -- why it is so difficult. Jeffrey does not want to

hear what actually happened at the time. I'm listening. That's good to

know, but you do that with your ears. I'm listening. APPLAUSE

When it comes to the executive, we did not walk away, let's be very

clear. We saw the writing on the wall for the executive. We saw the

imminent collapse will stop and you walked away. I'm going to give you a

chance to talk about that in a moment but I want you to talk about

Brexit for this question. You will have every opportunity. I have to

because of what I said before. But in terms of Brexit it is hugely

important we get the right deal. We have to still have access to the UK

market but we also have to deal with the issue that any kind of hard

border, any kind of differentiation in terms of customs or access to the

customs Union will have a devastating impact on Northern

Ireland. Much of our business, the agri- food sector, the health

sector, and many others, are dependent on the cross-border trade

and cooperation. If we lose the opportunity to have access to the

single market, to have access to the customs Union, then we damage the

very businesses we are building our financial and economic success on,

that are going to grow the jobs for the future and give us

opportunities. We need to get a good deal. It is in everyone's interests

to do that. I am still not convinced that Brexit is a good decision but

it is the decision that has been taken. My concern is it is a

marginal decision in the UK. The country is split. I think a wise

head, as Prime Minister, would choose to take a slightly softer

approach, to try to bring people together, to try to find a

compromise that lets its stick to the referendum result but at the

same time hold onto those key issues which are crucial for economic

future. She is going for a recklessly hard Brexit and she has

been aided and abetted every step of the way by Jeffrey and his

colleagues. Is that a negotiating stance? It is not a very good

negotiating position when other people in Europe are dismissing you

because simply what she's doing is ignoring the reality and it is not

creating the kind of certainty which will allow people to go ahead with

investment in business, that will allow people to go ahead and plan

for the future and that is what a Prime Minister or to be doing. I'm

going to bring in the audience, the lady in the blue jacket there. I'm

listening to all the plans and everything, in terms of protecting

the status quo but what are we actually doing to invest in our

companies in order to prepare them for hard Brexit if it actually

happens? You know, what are we doing? There is no discussion about

how we are helping companies actually prepare for the investment?

Because to build trade in the Far East or in other, you know,

economies outside the EU will take five years. But it's not going to

happen here and now. This gentleman. I can't think that Naomi

entertaining the idea that Brexit might be good or I potentially not

by decision. It will be a disaster. I did not say that. You said you

were not sure if it's a good idea. I said I was not in favour, I'm still

not in favour but I'm Democrat. It is an iceberg and we need to change

course. I agree with you. Culturally, it is a threat to us

all, a huge threat. It has to be opposed. The lady in the front. I

think it is laughable that Jeffrey is continually saying that we need

to customise the voice of the majority. You don't trust of the --

trust the voice of the majority who want marriage equality, the 56% in

the North who voted to remain and the young people in this room and

elsewhere who voted overwhelmingly to remain as you don't reflect the

rights of the majority here. APPLAUSE

There were a couple here. Brexit is happening whether we like it or not,

why can't you sit down at the table and get on with it because we need

the best deal. One more. I've probably knocked on as many doors as

Jeffrey and I haven't heard anyone talking about the issues that you

two have been bickering about all night. What they are worried about

is issues like we heard before, schools, doctors, and the health

service but also, they are interested in the real Brexit issues

you have not addressed yet, so could you perhaps move on and answer the

lady's question properly? We don't have time to go through it again but

I will ask Robin to address that. Linked to... Are we investing in the

right places? Do we have a plan at all? Know because you've listened to

the two main executive parties are doing and bickering here today. Nine

days, 11 days after that, Theresa May will start negotiating Brexit,

whether she -- if she continues to be Prime Minister. Where will we be?

Still sitting around the table trying to reform the executive. That

is what is wrong. And when you can see how these two gentlemen perform

tonight, if that is how their bodies will perform after the 9th of June

the other parties try to get Stormont and running again, I am

despairing we will have any support. It brings us nicely to the last

question which comes from Tara, an architect.

A lot of people are fed up with politicians passing the buck and

blaming the other side when things go wrong. Bearing this in mind, does

your party there any responsibility for the current impasse at Stormont?

I will go straight to Naomi because I promised you a chance to talk back

to Jeffrey who accused you of walking out of the assembly. Let's

hear it. We put forward proposals nine months

ago. We didn't qualify to be in the Executive. We were asked if we would

consider taking on the justice ministry. We had been in the

previous Executive, sat there with two ministers and I think they had

done an excellent job. But what we discovered as time went on was that

the DUP were coming - more difficult to work with, they weren't

respectful of their partners in Government. So we weren't with a set

of proposals, with five things that needed to happen. Five things that I

have to say had they happened would have prevented the collapse of the

Executive this time. Because they would have dealt with things like

the abuse of the petition of concern, the lack of respect between

parties, more collectivity and all those things. But we were basically

drummed out of the first and Deputy First Minister's office to the sound

of fists being banged on the table to tell us no. So, at the end of the

day there is only so hard you can push against that. We took a

responsible decision to go into constructive opposition and that

meant supporting the Executive on occasion, where they were doing the

right thing and holding them to account when they weren't. You have

addressed that. The question is do you bear any responsibility for the

impasse, do you feel responsibility? No, I don't feel any responsibility

for the impasse because we have been at the talks, we have provided

constructive solutions to the issues. We have sought to bridge the

gap, often gaps that exist between other parties that would not be a

barrier to us going into Government. I say this, we may not bear any of

the responsibility for the collapse, but we absolutely want to bear the

weight of work that has to be done to get the Executive re-established.

Thank you. John O'Dowd, any responsibility for Sinn Fein? Yes.

Go on. Sinn Fein brought down the Executive because corruption was at

the heart of Government. ?500 million of public funds being wasted

on the now infamous RHI scheme. We offered Arlene Foster a way out, we

asked her to step aside for four weeks. While these allegations were

investigated? While allegations were investigated, yes. Allegations of

corruption, not corruption, allegations. Allegations of

corruption, OK, Noel, if that keeps you happy. We asked her to step

aside. And the courts. Let me finish. She refused to do that, that

brought the only circumstances that could have happened in any

democratic institution. The institutions collapsed and we went

to the people seeking mandates for all. Now we have a responsibility to

do, and yes, we have a responsibility in this, is to get

those institutions up and going again with the equality and respect

and integrity at the heart of Government. Given that the RHI, this

is the renewable heat initiative for viewers on the BBC News channel and

BBC parliament which was incentives given to businesses who employed

renewable technology, renewable heat technology, that's in the hands of

an inquiry, a judge. What's to stop you going back in as Jeffrey

Donaldson said, we will be there on Monday, will you? There are

outstanding agreements that need to be implemented. Those agreements

came as compromises. We compromised on issues, others compromised. Now

those compromises have to be implemented because despite what the

other parties are saying, you don't get everything you want when you go

into a power-sharing executive are to a coalition, you have to

compromise. We compromised in the past, other agreements were supposed

to be implemented, they vice-president been. Now's the time

to implement. Robin Swann. We took hard decisions to get the

institutions up and running at the start. We despair to see the

positions we have been put into. Sinn Fein collapsed the

institutions, I believe, for opportunism. They saw the

opportunity and took it. APPLAUSE. You... You have had your

chance. John. You will have a response to respond. I did chair the

Public Accounts Committee. That investigated the RHI. John, let

Robin Swann speak. You will have a chance. When it comes back to

restoring the institutions there needs to be a mindset, there was

accusations made to Naomi Long going into opposition. We went into

opposition after the last election because we thought there was an

opportunity actually to bring mature politics into Northern Ireland where

we could have a Government and an opposition. But what happened was

that Sinn Fein and the DUP couldn't actually maintain the relationship

of proper Government and that's another reason the Executive fell.

To get up and running again we need to see changes in the institutions.

We need to see reform of the petition of concern. We need to see

our ministers accountable. And that will do away with a lot of of the

scandals, when the ministers take responsibility for their decisions

that they do in other legislators. Jeffrey Donaldson, your manifesto,

priorities for deal to restore devolution, will it increase support

for Northern Ireland's position in the UK, is it consistent with NI

remaining a full integral part of the UK, is it compatible with

citizenship, will it result in better Government... That sounds

like a lot of red lines It doesn't, Noel, because that's in relation to

an agreement. We are saying why can't we negotiate and we did

before, we had a functioning Government and Executive and

Assembly and we negotiated in parallel with that. I agree with

you, on the doorstep - it worked in the Stormont House Agreement, Colum.

We were in Government and we were negotiating. It happens all the

time. I am sorry, when John says the only option people have is to pull

down a Government, the same scheme in Great Britain has overspent by a

far greater amount than the scheme... But nobody has brought

down the Government. In the end political stability is important.

It's what people need. I repeat, Noel, on Monday, we will go to

Stormont if the other parties will join us, we will have the Assembly.

We will form the Executive with no preconditions. In parallel with

that, while we are getting on with the business of delivering for

people on public services and the things that really matter to people,

we will negotiate these other things. We are not going to run away

from negotiations. But why are others running away from Government?

That's the big question. We take responsibility. We will go in, we

will help to govern and we are looking for partners to do that. I

am looking around this table and I am asking the question, who will

join us on Monday to form a Government? Colum Eastwood, will you

be there? If Arlene Foster had taken responsibility last Christmas we

wouldn't be in this mess. Well, she didn't. What we need to do now is

focus on the future. We have a couple of weeks after this election

to get things back up and running. I think we can. We have put in

proposal after proposal after proposal to get things moving. If we

change one thing, the petition of concern, to make sure it's not a

block on rights and it's there to protect rights, we can have marriage

equality, an Irish language act, all those things people want to see

happening. Maybe. All of which we said nine months ago and no one else

would expend any political capital whatsoever in backing us, not Sinn

Fein, not the SDLP, not the Ulster Unionists and the DUP. This was an

SDLP policy from the very beginning. It was in the Good Friday Agreement.

Petition of concern being reformed was not written into the Good Friday

Agreement, with all due respect, that's a ludicrous proposition. We

have been talking about reforming the petition of concern since it was

written badly. Nobody backed us up. Let's get moving on how we can solve

our problems. The biggest problem we are facing, in July who's going to

be running the health service, the economy in Northern Ireland? Theresa

May potentially. Do we want that happening? If it does happen, we

need people to go and defend the rights of people here and make sure

we don't have a Tory Party destroying our health service. The

Secretary of State has said you have 21 days after this election. We will

be there on Monday and every day and we will work with whoever we have to

get things up and running. He want to be in Government, we wanted to be

in Government last year by the way but people wouldn't negotiate back.

Absolutely. The other opposition parties can tell you that's exactly

what happened. Nobody walked away, people wanted to be in Government,

they weren't able because no one would negotiate back. We were faced

with arrogance. APPLAUSE. Let me take some

statements from the... With the likes of schools and so on, we have

received letters to say budget cuts, possibly up to 6%, because the

accept can't be forced. As voters, we don't get value for money for

yourselves because the fact you have wasted so long arguing, you are

getting paid to be there. Why not money reinvested because we want to

see return for what you are doing for us and based on tonight all you

are doing is arguing and it's worrying. This gentleman in front.

Yes, well, it seems to me that any elected representative should go and

vote on issues, they should represent the people. Sinn Fein

aren't doing that. I would like to think that all parties are going to

go to Westminster, they're going to sit in the Assembly, they're going

to represent the people they're going to vote on important issues

and not duck hard decisions. OK. Any others? What would a re-established

Stormont do for the 1950s born women disproportionately affected by two

increases in state pension age by up to and including six years with

little or no notice? That's a very specific question. It's going to be

something dealt with at Westminster. It's something that... It already

went through Westminster and you didn't stop it. It's been going on

sometime... If I could answer the question. The boys can argue amongst

themselves. The issue here is about women who have not had the time to

prepare for the changes to their pension. There is a movement within

Westminster to try to get that changed. I have to move on from

this. It's not really one for this forum. Thank you for it anyway. It's

about bearing responsibility and who do you think bears responsibility? I

think the parties that were in Government, I think the DUP and Sinn

Fein have created a mess. It's really on you guys to sort out this

mess, the mess you created is impacting all of us horribly. As

been mentioned before, the health service, the education, are all

suffering. It's up to to you to sort it out. On that point, I am going to

tell you that I am being told on the doors by the electorate I am

visiting and knocking doors across a wide range, not to go back into the

Executive until it's sorted out, rights, equality and integrity at

the heart of Government. That's a clear message I am getting on the

doorsteps. APPLAUSE. But you are not knocking

on unionist doors. Unionists will have different views, I go along a

row of houses... What do you say to them? I say I am a Sinn Fein

candidate seeking your vote. When they say that to you... In terms of?

When they say don't go in, what do you say? We will be back in

negotiations and seeking rights on equality and integrity at the heart

of Government, that's the mandate we got at the last election, if we get

the same mandate we will continue to see that. They're not saying what

about my hospital appointment and kids' schooling? They're not saying

that? I am telling you now the message received loud and clear on

the doorsteps is don't go back until it's sorted out. What message are

you getting Jeffrey Donaldson? You are right people wanted mess sorted

but the only way you do that is being in Government, then you have

the power to sort out the mess. You are the only ones who can put

yourselves back in Government. We are not, we rely on other parties,

it is power-sharing. Actually you don't. I find the irony of ironies,

we have Sinn Fein here tonight saying we don't want a Tory

Government, we are against a Tory Government. And they're prepared to

hand over the reins of power in Northern Ireland to that same Tory

Government because believe me if we don't get Stormont running, directs

rule from Westminster and the Tory Government is what you are facing

and you are responsible for handing that power back to them. It's your

responsibility? I think the DUP and Sinn Fein both have already handed

back power to Westminster. It was called welfare reform. What we can

do is sort our problems out. We have already said this, I don't actually

understand, Jeffrey, why the DUP, who believe in the United Kingdom,

are afraid to see marriage equality, for example. It's already in

everywhere else on these Islands. Why are you afraid to see a

languages act? We have one in Scotland, we have one in Wales.

There is one in the south. What is the problem with it? Why don't you

embrace that as British diversity, however you want to do it and accept

that we need to move things forward. We can no longer get stuck with all

of these things happening. People are concerned about health and

education. Are you afraid of those things? Noel, the place to discuss

these is at Stormont, the problem is we don't have a Stormont at the

moment. There are a lot of things I could ask you, are you afraid of the

British flag I am proud of because you keep taking it down, are you

afraid of my British identity, because you keep diminishing it? Why

culturally are you trying trying to deny me and the people I

represent... We have to end the programme on those mutual

accusations. Thank you very much. That's where we must draw the

Northern Ireland leaders' debate to a close. You will find a full list

of candidates where you live on our news website.

Thank you to our guests. To our audience. And of course to you at

home for watching. From the BBC Northern Ireland leaders' debate,

good night.