07/12/2011 am.pm

Good morning and welcome to the programme. It is the final

programme before the politicians in Cardiff they take their Christmas

break. On today's programme, we will be at Prime Minister's

Questions as David Cameron says he will protect British interest

within the euro-zone. And the Welsh Government budget has been passed,

finally. What could it do to improve our economy?

I'll be speaking to three of the four party leaders in the Assembly.

I am joined this morning by Labour's Ann Jones. Hopefully we

will be receiving William Graham from the Conservatives later on in

the programme. Firstly, the Welsh Government spending plans for the

next financial year were approved yesterday. The budget was passed

with the support of the Liberal Democrats. They secured an extra

�20 million worth of funding for schools. The Conservatives and

Plaid Cymru voted against the budget, criticising the priorities.

I put to you today a budget for growth and jobs which responds to

the deeply troubling and alarming times we are all living in. I

believe we can govern responsibly with our commitment to social

justice and economic renewal which is the grain of values to their

elected members across this Chamber and the commitment of this was to

have made. That was Jane Hutt. What do you

make of the budget? I am very pleased. I have not always been

pleased. But I am very pleased with it. It is a Budget for Jobs, budget

for growth. I think we can see some real progress being made. The

negotiations had taken place, all credit to the Government. It has

not been easy. But I think that we have a good all-round deal for the

people of Wales. It has been described as a budget for jobs and

growth. I can say the Government have neglected to deal with the

economic crisis. I do not think they have it all. We have difficult

circumstances. We have had the budget slashed from the

Conservatives at Westminster. We have tried to look at things and I

can see there being certainly within my constituency, there are

some signs that we will be seeing jobs and growth in North Wales. I

think it was sour grapes from Plaid Cymru. Their leader was the

economic Minister in the One Wales Government. He asked to shoulder

some of the blame. We will hear from Ieuan Wyn Jones later in the

programme. Let's deal with the Conservatives accusation that you

were taken hundreds of millions of pounds out of the health service. -

- taking. I think that the health budget has been protected. We have

detected it. We always said we would. For the Conservatives to say

they wanted more money in health and then risk a 20 % cut in L --

education, adding that is pretty rich from them. They have never

been friends of the NHS. We have put money into the health service.

There are always the health service will have to change. We recognise

that. I do think that for them to say that, at the risk of taking 20

% out of the education budget, that is a 5th of the education budget.

But is a bit rich. -- that is. It took about the Liberal Democrats.

It could be seen as the Government passing the test of being a

minority Government. You are to cave-in to Liberal Democrat demands.

I think what they were asking for is something that I am quite

comfortable with. I think they have negotiated fairly well. I think

that is the test of a minority Government. The negotiations that

Jane Hutt and ministers have had to do have had to be handled

sensitively. We are a minority Government but we are a Government

that will stand up for Wales. We can now go down to Cardiff Bay.

What is going on today? There is a lot going on today. There's an

early start today. It starts at 12:30pm. I think that is because of

the strike last week. They lost a lot of business. Quite a lot to get

through. Questions to the Health Minister, Lesley Griffiths. Then

there will be questions to the Counsel General. Following those,

the debate. An interesting one to start off with. A cross-party

debate on the metro system. Some kind of integrated transport system

on the valleys lines, using the infrastructure there and adding to

it. It should be interesting to see what that is all about. It would

need some kind of input from other administrations. The

electrification that would be necessary, that is something that

lies with Westminster. It should be interesting. Moving on, the

Conservatives have a couple of debate tabled, one on higher

education. They would like to see improved teaching standards. There

will be putting their case on that later on. They also want to

scrutinise the Government's plans to bring together the Environment

Agency, the Countryside Council and the Forestry Commission and the one

environmental body. Plaid Cymru want to talk about the economy.

They do not think there is sufficient stimulus for that.

Liberal Democrats want to talk about retail. Very topical. At the

end of the afternoon, we have the short debate on credit rates.

Thank you. A busy day lies ahead. We will speak to you later in the

programme. You can keep across what is happening by clicking on our

website. The address is on the screen. Let head of the Westminster.

Good morning. The budget is an issue that will not go away. It is

Europe at Westminster. There is a summit at the end of the week.

David Cameron has been trying to make his position clear. There are

plenty of Conservative Euro-sceptic MPs who think that problems in the

euro-zone on a perfect opportunity to take powers back from Brussels.

They see this summer at the end of the week as a good place to start.

-- summit. David Cameron gave a cast-iron guarantee before the last

general election that any changes to the European treaty structure

would involve a referendum in Britain. If you read the interview

in the Times this morning, the tone from David Cameron is a little bit

different. He is threatening AV -- veto on any changes that Angela

Merkel and Nicolas Sarkozy propose at the end of the week. He is not

talking about bringing anything back from Brussels to Westminster

at this stage. Kenneth Clarke, the it -- the Justice secretary, has

said much the same thing in an interview.

The Tory right is not very happy about that. It will be interesting

to watch Prime Minister's Questions. When the Prime Minister saw the

order question this morning, he might have been taking a deep

intake of breath when he saw the first question from Andrew

Rossendale, the Conservative MP for Ross -- Romford. He tends to

campaign in a Union Jack waistcoat. OK, we will leave Brussels for a

moment. I am sure there will be plenty of focus on the economy here.

The Government lost the vote last night on the economy. This was a

Labour debate on the economy which went on called every week. -- which

we get called every week. Alistair Darling was suggesting that the

euro-zone leaders had not got it right. Until everything has

happened, the UK economy will still be suffering. He had a go what

George Osborne, his successor. It all developed on predictable lines

for it -- but a surprise at the end. There is not usually a photon these

debates but the Labour whips had a little under the radar operation

and forced a surprise vote at the end. -- vote on. Eight. Of trivia,

this is the first Commons defeat for the coalition Government. Lader

at -- Labour are happy that has come on the big issue of the

economy. It is a little bit embarrassing for the party it

raised a smile from our Labour representative on the sofa.

committee of MPs has been looking at who should be sitting in the

House of Lords. They are taking their lessons off

the telly. This is the constitutional political reform

committee. Their job is to look at the nooks and crannies and suggest

ways that things could be brought into the 21st century. They have a

report suggesting some changes should be made to the way that

hereditary Peers operate in the House of Lords. There are 92 of

them left. They had been watching Downton Abbey on another channel.

They have this rule that only males can inherit hereditary titles. They

say that is very old fashioned and daughters should be able to inherit

titles. They suggest that titles -- problems from Downton Abbey are a

lesson for us all. Take a lesson from television. I enjoined doubt

it -- I enjoyed doubt and Abbey, even if it is on another channel.

I ask you every week to get in touch with us. Why don't you have a

go at getting in touch with us? The Let's have a chat with our guests.

William Graham, good morning. We spoke earlier about the Assembly

Government's budget. Ann Jones was obviously delighted with it. I do

not know whether you will feel the same way. I congratulate the Labour

group on making a good decision. They picked off the weakest and got

the Lib Dems, they were desperate to do something. The budget has

been passed. There is a lot of posturing. I congratulate the

Labour Party on getting their budget through. They had a

reasonable majority yesterday. heard about some political

shenanigans at Westminster and the way that. -- politics happens, you

see this deal that Labour have made very much a deal of political

necessity. Yes, doing as little as possible, I think we could probably

think that by next Easter we will probably have a coalition

Government in the Assembly. I suspect none of the Labour members

will want it. It may be forced on them for the future. For my money,

that will be with Plaid Cymru. Another coalition of Plaid Cymru?

You were not mad about that idea last time. There are 30 of us in

the Assembly Labour group. We have managed so far. The negotiations

through the Budget, it is not time to start talking about coalitions.

We have set our programme out for Government and I will have some

strong words to say if a suggestion comes true. There will be no Easter

eggs if that happens! It is just speculation. We will head off to

the gallery. Mark is following the leaders around today.

I'm delighted to say I am joined by the leader of Plaid Cymru, Ieuan

Wyn Jones. Let's talk about It did not have the economic

stimulus week felt was essential. We know growth is going to be down

and unemployment is going to be up. Families are going to be hard

pressed. This government seems to be acting as if nothing has changed

since the election in May. Is that the case? It is difficult for

people outside to get past the politics. They are hearing about

schools building programmes, transport, it seems things are

happening. They know the Government does not have much money. Let us be

honest, everyone can agree, these are the figures, there are �680

million being stripped out of the Government's capital budget over

this term. That means less schools will be built, less roads, less

railway, less hospitals. Everybody agrees. The announcement of school

building is not a definite announcement, it is what might

happen if certain circumstances arise. I do not think the kind of

economic stimulus the economy now needs is something this Government

is addressing. What would you take away in order to do the things you

want? It is about adding. People advising the Government are saying

you need a capital injection of �2.6 billion -- two. Did billion

pounds in order to stimulate growth. That will have to come from

Westminster. The Assembly budget is not big enough. We will need some

from pension funds in the private sector. That is the kind of

ambitious programme at this Government should be doing. Some of

that is outside the Welsh block. What are they doing in order to

address that? What can they do? Their hands are not tied. We have

got to be ambitious for Wales. It is not about 100 million here and

there are, it is about big, bold positive statements will stop the

kind of projects we put forward, bringing in outside my, private

capital alongside the Government's money, would take us a lot further.

We put that forward in the election. The Government, of course, here,

the Labour Party rubbished it. It is far too slow. I want to talk

about the year just gone and the year ahead. A mixed year for you

and Plaid Cymru. As the party, you achieve that long term aim of

getting a referendum through. But you were punished at the election.

You've lost seats. That is the way politics is. There are always ups

and Ms. -- down ats. I have seen it all. You have to remember politics

comes in cycles. Plaid Cymru has now put forward a bid platform for

the future. We have the review, which we will look at in the new

year. We have a lot to play for. Coming on to the new leader, the

lesson it must that person learn from the experience last year? A

lot of people might say, you did get across a lot of things you

wanted to do but you did not get the results you wanted. It is not

inevitable the junior partner will be punished. He is a risk you might

need to take. P Kahl at every single event. You have to look at

the trend. -- it is not a single event. It is all relative.

Sometimes you are up or down. You have to build the party that is

capable of taking over the Government of Wales. That is really

the task of Plaid Cymru. All the candidates understand that. Up you

have to appeal to everybody in Wales, whatever their background.

Is that sometimes a difficulty, that you have to reach out?

Politics is about what if. If everybody at any time who has voted

for Plaid Cymru in the past, if they did at once, we could be a

very significant falls. But you have got to be able to appeal to a

broad church, if you like, more consistently, and that is one of

the lessons. The experience of being in government has strengthen

the party in a way I did not think was possible. People now know you

can trust Plaid Cymru running the country. That is an experience we

never had before. That will give the new leader something to build

on. We know you have been leader for a long time. It is not for too

much longer. What are your plans? Do you intend to stay on as an AM?

My intention is to stay on as an Assembly Member. I am looking

forward to doing other things, getting out of the pressure cooker

of being party leader for a decade or so. It is a high pressure. I

will be looking forward to doing other things. There are lots of

things I want to do. I have not decided exactly but I have a few

ideas will stop one final question. Looking across the Welsh politics,

what are people looking out for next year? I think it is the way

you respond to the economic crisis. Nothing compares to this. He does

not matter what you do, unless you can tackle the underlying problems

which are facing the Welsh economy, you are going to beat her in real

trouble. The eurozone crisis is another matter. Politics is so

unpredictable these days. You cannot foresee what will happen.

You must do what you can do, using the instruments you have got, in

order to address issues. People feel depressed and powerless.

do. If you listen to George Osborne, I have never heard such a

pessimistic statement in my life. It was like there was no light at

the tunnel -- at the end of the tunnel. There has to be light at

the end of the tunnel. Economic cycles have the light political

cycles. The question is, how long will it be? It is interesting times.

Thank you. I think I sought the Leader of the

Opposition lurking in the background. We will be speaking

with him later. Let us reflect on what Ieuan Wyn Jones said. William

Graham, I will start with you. Ieuan Wyn Jones say George Osborne

painted a very miserable and pessimistic picture last week

during the Autumn Statement. It is different to what he initially said

about growth figures. It is. That was pretty much drivel. The major

parties are well aware of the economic crisis we are facing. He

is talking about spending more money. Of course the Government

would like to spend more money. The reality is, we are having to pay

off our debts. But the moment, we are spending hundreds of millions

of pounds every day of the week just on that interest will stop he

is talking about what money can be spent and how it could raise more

money. That is all very well but at the moment both parties realise we

are under constraints. The Welsh government by using the money they

have got. Everybody wants more but the reality is, there is no more

money may we have to use our money well. There has to be prudent

measures now. That is why the nationalists are asking for more

money, they think there are votes in it. What Dafydd Elis-Thomas --

what Ieuan Wyn Jones is saying, they have an idea that will raise

money. That will pay for capital projects that have been slashed by

your Government and William's government in London. I think

William is right. We have recognised we are in difficult

times. The way out of it is a matter of priority. That is why Ed

Balls' plan is a good plan. That was to reduce VAT, get more

construction people back into work. Ieuan Wyn Jones talks about Wales,

but they lost the election. People want to see a good, sensible

government working through difficult times. The Welsh

government here has done that. It has budgeted for growth and jobs.

We will see that money being spent wisely and with priorities attached

to it. If you keep repeating jobs and growth, people will believe you

in the end. One leader down. Do you have another on?

Yes. The Welsh Conservative leader in the Assembly. You said it was

too early to say Compliments of the season. But it is our last

programme. Let us say -- let us talk about yesterday. You said he

did not do what you wanted for health. What would you have liked

it to do for help? It was disappointing on a number of fronts.

It has not done anything for the Welsh NHS. It will see savage cuts.

We are hearing from other health professionals and seeing the

waiting times going up. They are not having the experience they

should be having. But failed miserably for the people of Wales

will stop we are seeing a cash increase. A real-terms cut. That is

inevitable. Getting the on the politics, the situation is, there

is not a enough money to go around. We should protect health. Everyone

is doing it in Westminster, that puts the Welsh NHS at a massive

disadvantage. That is the big drive of economic activity. It is 40% of

the Budget. It is a large employer here in Wells. There are massive

repercussions from this Budget. -- in Wales. We need to protect the

nation's Health and stimulate economic growth. But whatever the

Government did, given the pot is not big enough, there would have

been suffering somewhere? They have tried to spread the pain. If they

had protected health, there would have been cuts in other areas like

education. Rubbish. There were never cuts of 20 present in

education. -- 20%. We showed how you could do the up over �100

million by having direct funding to schools in Wales and taking out

bureaucracy. Many schools in Wales only receive 70% of the money that

is dispatched from the Wales government -- the Welsh government.

That is not acceptable. 90% of the money arrives at the school gates.

I am a parent myself. Parents want to see the money they paid hitting

the school will rooms. They want facilities for their children.

There are ways to mitigate. We know is a tough Budget we have to face.

You have to make sure you have your priorities and our priorities are

clear. You said there was inactivity at government level, not

enough was happening. I put it to you that we have had an NHS

programme unveiled in the last couple of weeks, we are going to

have a transport plan unveiled today. There was a school bill

unveiled. Things are happening in a difficult environment. I know you

are trying your best but the Government are trying to find out

what activity means. There is in activity on the Bath of the Welsh

government. We were promised by a the First Minister three bills, we

have one minor bill. The school bill is just a rehash of an old

bill. It is a smaller programme over a longer period of time. It

was a mix of ideas offering no direction to our Health Service. If

you look at the economy, we have not had a statement from the

Minister of Business and Enterprise and we just seven months into this

Assembly term. I cannot think of another government in any other

part of the world, where that economy is central to much of the

thinking of people, that you do not get at least an oral statement so

at that AMs can question it. All we have had is rehashing. As I said,

we have had delay and dithering. are running out of time. One final

question. What has been a great lesson of this year for you

becoming the leader of the party? What do you hope for next year?

Work to purpose and have strong ideals. That is what I stood for to

become leader of the Welsh Conservatives. That is what I will

carry through to next year. I hope we will continue the collaboration.

Thank you. Let us go to the Commons soon. Before that, a quick word

with our guests. Ann Jones, would you think will be the main issues

we will see him Prime Minister's Questions? I think David Cameron

will face a tough time from his backbenchers. William, I heard your

former colleague on the radio this morning. He said he was a Euro-

sceptic. He said he and his colleagues are going to give the

Prime Minister some time to sort this out. Their patients may way

thin if he does not give something from this discussion. He has said

we cannot give more powers to Europe. He has to be definite that

we will protect the city from some of these suggestions from Brussels

will stop the knock-on effect is... It is dramatic. Our exports are

hugely important to the economy. There must be protected. I am

disappointed this press speculate on what will happen. I am pretty

certain Cameron knows what he is going to do. He will have a very

hard job with Europe but I think our party members will give him a

chance to say, this is what I am trying to negotiate, and judge him

on that. We will head to the Questions to the Prime Minister.

Thank you. This morning, I had meetings with ministerial

colleagues and in addition to my duties in this House, I will have

further such meetings later today. Mr Speaker, the British people want

to see two things from this week's European summit, firstly a resolute

and uncompromising defence of Britain's national interests and

secondly an end to the disastrous Euro crisis, a currency the party

opposite want us to join. Will the Prime Minister do Prime Minister --

Britain proud on Friday and show some bulldog spirit in Brussels?

can guarantee that is exactly what I will do. The British national

interest absolutely means that we need to help resolve this crisis in

the euro-zone. It is freezing the British economy, just as it is

freezing economies right across Europe. It is about jobs and growth

and business and investment in the UK. At the same time, we must seek

safeguards for Britain. And I can absolutely guarantee that as long

as I am here, there is no prospect of joining the euro, something the

right honourable Gentleman opposite takes a different view about.

weeks ago, the Prime Minister said, the idea of some limited treaty

change in the future giving us an opportunity to repatriate powers

back to Britain. At the European summit, what powers will he be

arguing to repatriate? As I had just explain, at the summit, let me

explain... Order. We are all interested in the answer. We will

have the key aim of inning to resolve the euro-zone crisis and we

believe that means that means euro- zone countries coming together and

doing more things together. If they choose to do that at a treaty that

we are involved in, we would insist on some safeguards for Britain and

yes, that means making sure we are stronger and better able to do

things in the UK to protect our own national interests. Let me explain,

the more that countries in the euro-zone ask for, the more we will

ask for in return. But we will judge the art on the basis of what

matters most to Britain. -- Judge that. The more talks, the more

confusing his position is, quite frankly. Let me remind him on the

eve of the biggest post-war rebellion against a Prime Minister

on Europe, he was telling his backbenchers that the opportunity

of a treaty change would mean in the future the repatriation of

powers. That was his position six weeks ago. Today he wrote an

article in the Times, not one mention of the repatriation of

powers. Why does the Prime Minister think it is in the national

interest to tell his backbenchers one thing to quell a rebellion on

Europe and tell his European partners another? What we want to

do, specifically and particularly in the area of financial services,

where this country has a massive national interest, let me remind

him, it is 10 % of GDP, it is 3% of our trade surplus. It is 7% of UK

employment. I want to make sure we have more power and control in the

end -- in the UK to determine the since. That is in complete contrast

to the party opposite but gave away power after power. -- that gave

away. They gave up our power and they made us join the bail-out fund.

We have had to get out of the bail- out fund. They gave up our rebate

Hants got nothing in return. You have one party, one Government that

defends Britain's interest and another that always surrenders.

think the short answer is... Order. I will say what I said a moment ago,

people must be heard. That is what will happen, however long it takes.

I think the short answer is that six weeks ago he was promising his

backbenchers one thing and now he has changed. That is the reality

from his prime Minister and the problem for Britain is that the

most important European summit for a generation, it matters hugely for

families and businesses up-and-down the country, the Prime Minister is

simply left on the sidelines. Isn't the truth that we have a Prime

Minister caught between his promises in opposition and the

reality of Government? That is why Britain is losing out in Europe.

Dudu some technical difficulties, He talks about being isolated. Let

me just explain to him where we would be if we adopted Labour's

policies. If we adopted your spending and deficit policies, and

if we were in the euro, what we would find his I would not be going

to Brussels to fight for Britain, I would be going to Brussels to get a

bail-out! Under the proposals being put forward, Labour would put

Britain in such a bad position that the tax changes would not be

written by the Shadow Chancellor, they would be written by the German

Chancellor! There is a wide range of views on Europe throughout this

House. One can sense it from the response even to that remark. Will

the Prime Minister take the straightforward message within to

the European Council that the one thing most likely to unite the

House of Commons would be the perception of a calculated assault

from Brussels, not even in their interests, on the well-being of the

UK financial services industry and on the 1.3 million people in our

constituencies working. Of course we want to see greater balancing of

our economy and more jobs in manufacturing and aerospace and

technology. But the economy that we inherited is very dependent on

financial services. We should celebrate the fact it is a world-

class industry, not just for Britain but actually for Europe. It

is absolutely vital that we safeguard it. We see it under

continued regulatory attack from Brussels. There is an opportunity,

particularly if there is a treaty, to ensure some safeguards not just

for that industry but to give us greater power and control in terms

of regulation in this House of Commons. I think that is in the

interest of the entire country and something I will be fighting for on

Friday. Does the Minister agree that the recent escalation of

industrial action in the public sector which incidently in my part

of the world was not... Is the result of yet -- genuine anger at

the unfairness of Government action to deal with pension contributions?

It is making people on low and middle incomes pay for the

horrendous mistakes at the top. afraid the honourable Lady is just

plain wrong. The lowest-paid workers are not being asked to

contribute more to their pensions. In terms of fairness, let me just

make this point, and do what we are offering, a primary-school teacher

earning �32,000 per year could receive a pension worth �20,000. A

private sector worker, the people putting their money into these

pensions, a private sector worker would have to pay 38 % of their

salary, almost half of their salary, to get an equivalent pension. There

is an issue of fairness and we must play fair with the private sector.

They are putting their money into these pensions. Does my right

honourable friend agree with me that it is time for this country to

leave Europe -- lead Europe into a new age? I do think there are

opportunities for Britain in Europe. I think we should start on the

premise that it is in Britain's interest to be in the single market.

We are great trading nation, we need those markets open and we need

to be able to determine the rules of those markets. As Europe changes,

of course there are opportunities but the first priority at the end

of this week must be to make sure that the euro-zone crisis that is

having such a bad effect on our economy is resolved. At the same

time, we should be clear about the national interest, safeguarding the

single market, financial services, looking out for the interests of UK

plc. Will the Prime is to be having his youth -- usual Christmas bash

with Rebecca Brooks and Jeremy Clarkson? Will they be talking

about how out of touch they are with British public opinion --

Prime Minister. I seem to remember that the annual sleep over was with

the Labour Prime Minister. I will be having a quiet family Christmas.

Is it not the case that the bail- out after bail-out of the euro-zone

will not save Europe or the euro zone but making Europe more

competitive than cutting regulation and red tape on business? I think

the honourable gentleman is entirely right. I can understand

why leading members of the euro- zone like the Germans want to see

if -- tougher fiscal rules about budget deficits for euro-zone

members. At the heart of the crisis, it is caused by a current deficit

in some kind -- some countries. Unless we solve the competitiveness

problem, this crisis will keep occurring. Our argument has been

through wild, you need tougher rules on budget deficits, you need

to have the institutions acting strongly but you need to resolve

the competitiveness problem in order to deal with this crisis. I

will continue to make those points on Thursday and Friday.

Next year, according to the Institute of Fiscal Studies, as a

result of your economic policies, the poorest third of families will

lose three times as much as the richest third? These figures are

wrong. If you take all the things the Government has done, which is

the right way to measure this, what you find is that the top 10 % C

losses me 10 times greater than the bottom 10 % and that is fair.

Another point that is important is if you take the richest 10 % in our

country, day not only see that biggest reduction in cash terms,

they see the biggest reduction of their income proportionately. It is

incredibly difficult to do with the debt and deficit of the honourable

gentleman and his party left behind. Mr Speaker, he is simply wrong

again. The figures are bare and the poorest third are losing far more

than the richest third. He used to say, I am not going to balance the

budget on the backs of the bunch -- poor. He is right, he is not

balancing the budget! 158 more -- �158 billion more borrowing. There

is one group to give him credit where he is making... I do not

think this has got the publicity it deserves. He is delaying for a year

the tax on the private jets. At the same time as hitting the poorest

families in this country. Can he confirm that a working mother

earning �300 per week is seeing VAT going up, tax credits cut, child

benefit frozen and maternity grant cut? He had 13 years to tax private

jets. And now former Labour leaders are jetting around in them! He

quotes the Institute for Fiscal Studies. What the in situ said

about Labour's plans specifically, Labour's policies would lead to

even higher debt levels over this Parliament -- Institute. They do

not like to hear it when their own policies are taken apart. Calm down.

I want to get down the order paper. If the Prime Minister wants to give

a brief answer, be brief. His plans imply higher debt levels

than those we will in fact see. If you want the stimulus we are giving

the economy by low interest rates, you have to stick to our plans.

There is not a party in Europe that back his party's plans.

He does not understand. He is cutting too far and too fast. That

is why we have problems in mind that economy. He does not want to

tell us what the i f a s say about his plans. -- the IFS. The new tax

on benefit measures are at a takeaway from lower income families

with children. The figures speak for themselves. His changes are

hitting women are twice as hard as men. Is not the truth that he is

the first Prime Minister in modern times to say to the women and

children, no. His soundbite get weaker and weaker as his leadership

gets weaker. If you look at what we have done, lifting 1.1 million

people out of tax, that is mostly women that benefit. If you look at

the increase in pension, �5.35 starting next April, that will

benefit mostly women. If you take the issue of public sector pensions,

where we are helping the lowest- paid in the public sector, that

will help women. If we are giving the economy a suddenly it's her by

keeping our interest rates low. We have interest rates at 2% while

they are at 5% in Italy, Spain, 30% in Greece. We followed his advice,

interest rates would rocket, businesses would go bust and more

people would be out of work. That is what will Labour offer and that

is why they will never be trusted with our economy again.

constituents are having great difficulty accessing reasonable

finance. A major contributor is lack of competition. Will the

Government consider breaking up and create more competition on a high

street? We have opportunities to increase the of competition on a

high street. We look to return the state banks into the private sector.

We have managed to take one important step forward, to get

Northern Rock back out their lending to businesses and to

households, properly established. They closed questioned. Labour MP.

We move on, he is not here. Conservative backbencher. May I

suggest a fundamental renegotiation of our relationship with the EU

based on free trade, growth and competitiveness which other

countries enjoyed and not political union and did wage regulation? This

EU summer it is a defining moment, a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity.

Will the Prime Minister sees the moment?

I am more optimistic than the honourable gentleman. The bail-out

power that the last Government gave away, we are returning to the

United Kingdom the up the treaty. We have returned a powerful stock

recently, we have won exemption from all you have that legislation

to make sure from January 2012, Micra enterprises will not face EU

regulation at all. Are we going to fight for British interest on

Thursday and Friday? Yes, absolutely. Let us be clear. There

is an option on a treaty where we have an ability to say yes or no.

We will get a price for that. There is the possibility the eurozone

members, at 17, will form a treaty of their own. We have some leverage

in that situation because they need the use of EU institutions. We

should recognise exactly what my Maglev Ridge is and make the most

of it. You promised to set out social legislation. You are silent

on these issues and the Justice Secretary has said this agenda is

not realistic. Does the Prime Minister regret leading his party

up the garden path and pushing himself into a choice between

ditching his manifesto all be doing a treaty that may be essential to

avoid huge damage to the UK? What I regret is that the party opposite

gave away so many powers. It is going to take a while to get some

of them back. We are making progress. When they were in

government, there were repeated increases in the EU budget. We have

achieved an EU budget freeze. When he was in government, he gave away

the bail-out pallor and we had to pour billions of pounds into other

countries. We have that power back. With strong association, standing

up for Britain, we can clear up the mess that Labour left us. Over the

last decade, there has been an explosion of personal debt levels

in this country. We allow young people to leave school without the

proper skills to make decisions. Next week, a committee will report

on where this can fit in the curriculum. Will the Prime Minister

meet with a small group of MPs to ensure young people are more

finance and literate in the future? I am very happy to meet with my

honourable friend. Financial education is important for our

young people and I look forward to seeing the report.

The Prime Minister said he wanted to lead the most family-friendly

government ever. Is it a disgrace that nearly �19 billion worth of

cuts if the Government have announced so far, over 13 billion

have fallen on women? What I would say, it was this

government that introduced 15 hours of free nursery care for all four

year olds, something the Labour Party never managed to do. In spite

of the appalling mess we were left, in his Autumn Statement, we put in

an extra �380 million to double the number of disadvantaged two roles

whose parents will get free nursery care. -- two year olds will stop --.

What about rejecting government funding for a council tax freeze

next year and charging my hard- pressed constituents 3.5% more?

I hope all councils will take up the offer of a council tax freeze

because in this year, where people face economic hardship, it is

important we help where we can. That is why we cut the petrol tax

and why we allow the council tax rates to go ahead. My advice to

your constituents is to support bodies that that a council tax

freeze. Since the Education Act of 1944,

successive governments have supported subsidised travel for

students who lived three miles or more from other faiths school of

their choice. Some local authorities are beginning to cut

back on that support. I do not think any member in his house wants

to see that happen. Can the Prime Minister encourage local

authorities to embrace the spirit of the 1944 Education Act? -- this

House. I think he asks a very important

question. I support school choice, parents having the ability to

choose between schools and their support for the 8th schools. I will

look very carefully at what he says and what local authorities are

doing. -- for up faith schools.. In exchange for us supporting the

euro countries, we are in crisis. We should be seeking changes in the

laws on immigration, employment and fishing rights, in order to support

our economy. What I would say to the honourable gentleman, if I said,

if they choose a treaty at 27, that treaty requires her our consent and

we should therefore think of what other things... David Cameron

talking about the 27 members of the eurozone. The more changes they

want to make, the greater ability we have to ask for sensible things

that makes sense for Britain. I am very keen we exercise the leverage

we have to do a good deal for Britain. That is what I will be

dealing in Brussels on Thursday and Friday.

The Prime Minister promised I will cut the deficit, not the NHS. Why

is his government closing the accident and emergency a maternity

services at King George Hospital, cutting frontline NHS staff,

borrowing 158 billion extra? Should he have said I'll cut the NHS not

the deficit? My honourable friend is wrong. The deficit is coming

down and NHS spending is going up. I know his own health spokesperson

says is irresponsible to increase spending on the NHS. We do not be

it is irresponsible, we think it is the right thing to do. The Health

Secretary has set out the criteria for all local changes, including in

his constituency. There has to be problem -- proper public engagement.

There has to be support from GP commissioners and proper support

for a patient choice. The Prime Minister has taken a strong

interest in the incredible work of the Oxford Parent Infant project in

helping families struggling to form a strong attachment with their

babies. I started a new sister charity. Would the Prime Minister's

interest instant ruling families, we commit to looking again at the

incredible work that can be done in early intervention that saves a

fortune in the Criminal and Care services later on?

I think the honourable lady is entirely right and I know about a

project she speaks of. I am delighted she is expanding it. All

the evidence shows the more we can do to help children and their

parents between the age of his era and two, the absolutely key time,

where disadvantaged can set in, that can have a bad impact later in

life, a work and the work of members across this House in

Pretoria at -- in prioritising that is so important for our country.

My constituent runs his own construction company. Cutting VAT

does not benefit him because he is a small business. -- does benefit

him. The problem is, they have a huge

long list of extra spending and extra tax cuts they want and as we

have heard today, at Question Time, they opposed every single spending

reduction we are making, they opposed every single reform to get

better value for money. You can only conclude that spending would

go up, that borrowing would rocket, that interest rates would increase

and the economy would be left in very dire straits.

Why is my honourable friend supporting a policy of fiscal

unification for the eurozone states which, if it happens, will

undoubtedly lead to the creation of a dangerously undemocratic single

government for those countries? The point I would make is this. I

do not want Britain to join the euro. I think Britain is better off

outside the euro. Those countries that have chosen to join the euro,

they have got to make that system work. In order to do that, they

don't just need stronger fiscal rules, which I think is clear, they

need to have greater competitiveness. That is for them

to decide how to go ahead and do those things. What we should do is

maintain Britain's position eyes are the Europa and make sure we

safeguard our interest at the same time. -- position outside the euro.

Service personnel will hear a lot of their cut in terms while serving

on the frontline in Afghanistan. What does the Prime Minister think

that will do for morale for those who are risking their lives for us?

What we have done is double the operational allowance that people

in Afghanistan received and they are very brave people and we should

be doing right by them. We have doubled that allowance and we have

increased the council tax disregard. We have made sure of the Pupil

Premium is not just available to children on free school meals but

is available to all service children. We will go on defending

and promoting our brilliant armed service personnel and their

families. The wind farm applications spans

three authorities. They have assisted against local plans and

rejected it. A planning inspector over rolled them and move forward

his decision by three months so it could be made the day before the

bill got a cent. The Prime Minister will understand my constituents'

anger. -- ascent. Can he looked As a result of the changes we are

making, it will not be possible in future to overrule such decisions

to meet regional targets. We have now got rid of those regional

targets. We are giving more decision-making powers to local

bodies. Planning reforms will ensure that the local people and

councils decide what people need. The scandal of miss selling in this

country has gone a lot worse. The Prime Minister is now rejecting the

vote on these latest European changes. Will the Prime Minister

give a guarantee to this House that there will be an opportunity for

the British people to deliver its verdict on the changes that are

happening in Europe? What this Government has given us something

that no previous Government has given in this country which is we

passed a law that means it -- if ever this Government or any future

Government tries to pass powers from Westminster to Brussels, it

has to ask the British people in a referendum first. The fact people

feel betrayed by the last Government, that cannot happen

again. Small and medium-sized enterprises are the engine of the

economy. Will the Prime Minister acknowledged that a key factor in

achieving growth is to take action in Britain's interest to tackle and

reduce the huge regulatory burdens on small companies, so many of

which come from Europe? It is an important point. We have to start

in our own background and stop the over regulation that has happened

in the past. That is why we have the red tape challenge with every

rule being put upon the internet. That is why we have the one in, one

out rule, that applies to every single Minister. We have just

achieved a major breakthrough that micro businesses employing less

than 10 people will not be subject to -- European regulation from 2012

onwards. That is something that has not happened before in Europe and

if you make the arguments for jobs, growth and argument -- enterprise,

you can't win them. Women and children will bear the brunt of the

Prime Minister's failed economic economy. No wonder he continues to

turn off women! Will he accept the Treasury figures that 100,000 more

children will be living in poverty as a result of his board -- policy?

How on earth does -- does it advantage women and children to

pile them up with debt after debt after debt that they then have to

pay back? We have been standing here for 33 minutes. All we have

heard his proposals for tax reductions, spending increases,

reforms, scrapping the changes to public sector pay -- pensions. They

would take those women and children that we are concerned about, pile

them up with debt and let them live with that burden for the rest of

their days. May I hark back a month to 7th

November -- to 7th November. He appeared to agree with me. None of

the proposals have been acted upon by the European Central Bank. May I

now expressed to him my belief that the alternative policy of a fiscal

union will, as my honourable friend has already just said, poll was a

great threat to the whole of the Can the Germans be persuaded to

study the reason for the Boston tea Party because... Because no

taxation without representation is the bastion of freedom. As ever,...

Order! We have heard the question and we want to hear the Prime

Minister's answer. As ever, the Leader of the House speaks with

great knowledge. The reason that he and I do not want to... Being told

what our deficit and debt and everything else is. That is why we

do not want to join. If the countries of the euro-zone want to

make the system work, it is clear to me that fiscal rules are one

thing that they may need but that will not be enough without proper

competitive and less and the full- hearted intervention and support of

the institutions of the euro-zone, including the European Central Bank.

It is a decision of those countries have to make for themselves.

That is Prime Minister's Questions over for another week. A Burridge

of questions on the European summit. Most of them came for his -- from

his own side. Plenty to discuss back in the studio.

And on the subject of our guests, one of them has changed. Byron

Davis has joined us. William Gray in hat -- we and Graham has headed

off to the Chamber. -- William Graham. When William was sat in the

chair, we asked him about how the Prime Minister would deal with some

of the Euro-sceptic elements on his benches. He is coming under a bit

of pressure from the backbenches to going to this European summit and

get something out of it. Absolutely. I think he has got to going to it

in a strong position and he has got to stay firm on his heel and

hopefully will come out of it with something -- his view. You are

heading off into the euro-zone in the next few weeks. I am indeed.

You are heading to Germany. In terms of where you stand on Europe,

within your party, how would you describe yourself? Generally

speaking, I have always been a supporter of the European Union. I

have worked for the European Union. I support it, I have worked in

countries that are now members of the European Union. I think it is

only fair that these people are given support, for example, the

former Yugoslavia. They do need support. On that basis, I support

it. My only sort of real conflict, as opposed, with the European Union

is that some of the work of the commission which is imposed on us

without parliamentary reference. Are you pro-Europe? I think I am.

We have are some great benefits from Europe and it is the way

forward. Sometimes we need to be able to do for ourselves in Great

Britain and the UK. But on the whole, we have seen more benefits

from Europe than disadvantages. We have to work together. Some of the

countries coming into need some help. We have been very grateful to

take that help us well. That having been said, I would like to see some

powers restored back to the UK. I feel that some of our importance of

from rights are being threatened. I would like to see them being

restored. There was no mood music to light effect from the Prime

Minister. Not at the moment but it is just be a personal feeling that

I have. When the father of the House was speaking, there was

someone tweeting on his phone. That raises some Bangor in the studio.

You're not a fan? -- anger. I am not. You should be paying attention.

You cannot do things that once. Certainly not that. You should

apply yourself to the question and the debate. I am totally against it.

I think it is bad manners to be sitting there openly tweeting.

it happen in Cardiff? It does happen. We are trying to stop it.

The Presiding Officer has been quite clear that mobile phones

should be switched off. We do not going to other meetings and I think

it is discourteous to be sitting there will Banini -- openly doing

that. It is not to be done. In the olden days, I remember seeing

Brynle Williams reading the Farmer's Guardian. That was Brynle

Williams! A lot of Assembly Members are seen on their computers during

proceedings. That is a fair point. There are some issues that arise

during the course of plenary session which you have to respond

to. You need to be in contact but as for voluntary sending messages,

Twitter, I do not see the need for that at all. We will leave that for

now. Tomorrow, in the Commons, it is the opposition day. Plaid Cymru

get to choose a subject to debate. Recent demonstrations across the

country show that there is a great deal of anger towards the

Government and its proposed changes to public sector pensions but those

in the private sector are saying they are getting a good deal. This

is a debate that continues in Parliament and Howell Williams, the

Plaid Cymru MP, joins me to discuss the matter further. The Government

says that pensions as they are are not sustainable. Do you agree?

Clearly not. There is the money there. That has been shown by the

actions to - towards teachers' pensions in 2007. The priorities of

his Government lie elsewhere. argument is that pensions as they

are and not fair. I thought this Government was all about levelling

up. Whenever we talk about education, they complain that

standards are being dragged down. What we have is public sector

pensions which are reasonable, have been hard fought for and have been

paid for and yet the Government want to change the agreement and

drag them down to the terrible state of affairs in the private

sector. I do not want to go in that direction. Labour's former pensions

Minister put out a report, he has this week said that even with these

changes, pensions could still be an affordable in the future because

the rate of growth is slower than predicted. That is worrying? If it

was the case, of course. What he has disregarded is the 710,000

people in the public sector going to lose their jobs. That is going

to lead to a large saving to the Government in terms of spending. If

it was the case that we were dependent in the way that he has

said, the Government are going to get a boost by sacking all these

people. I think he is just plain wrong. People who are earning less

than �15,000 will not be asked to pay increased contributions. Surely

they are looking after those on lower incomes. We have tracked some

concessions out of the Government. But the fundamental problem with

this system still remains. They are demanding that people work for

longer, pay more and get less at the end of the day. Do you like the

unions worry that people will opt out of paying into a pension pot?

You have to have a certain number of pensions in a pension scheme to

make it viable and if the terms are so bad, people will pull out and

that will affect its viability in the future. I do not think the

Government have thought about this. If they have, they do not seem to

care. If people opt out, there is even less money in the pot and it

will make the pensions and affordable in the future. There is

less money in the private sector, are so many people found in the 80s

and the 90s. The private sector is not as good as it is made out.

People will find it difficult to carry on. What do you think is the

answer? Iain Duncan Smith has said that the money is not there. What

is the solution? I think this Government needs to re-order its

priorities. Like the previous one, they are obsessed with the city of

London, obsessed with bailing out the bankers and it is the workers

in the public sector that are being made to pay. I think we need to

change things. Do you feel people in the public sector need to cut

back, including their pensions? Government has already imposed a

pay freeze for three years and then we are going to get a 1% increase

for the next couple of years. But is actually a pay cut. Public

sector workers are contributing We have two guests on different

sides of the picket line, if you will, on the sofa. Ann Jones, you

were on a picket line. Why were you supporting the strike over

pensions? Pensions are a very important part of your work in life.

Before it was a politician, I worked in the fire brigade. I was

in the union. We have strength in numbers. United we stand, divided

we fall. I think I owe it to public sector workers to use my public --

my experience to show solidarity. Do you think they are right to

strike? A Yes, over pensions. We have seen it job cuts and now the

Government is announcing 750,000 public sector workers will lose

their jobs. Pensions are so important. It is what you plan for.

Public sector pensions, they are not thousands of pounds. They are

not gold-plated. Some of them will be on about �3,000. And they will

not be affected by the Government's cuts? They will have to pay more.

Women will have to pay more into the pension scheme. I am affected

with the rise in retirement age and so I am going to have to work

longer before I can get my state pension as well. All these things,

it is just right so that sometimes workers stand up and challenge

government. You came to work last week, and cross the picket line.

Why a? I am sad that we did not come to work. For me, I get paid to

do a job, I am here to do their job, I cross the picket line and I am

pleased that I did. Those people, members indeed, of this Assembly

who stood on picket lines should give up a day's salary. Ann Jones?

Absolutely. You will not be taking a day's salary for last Wednesday?

No. I have put my money into the trade union to assist people who

will lose their pay. Are you pleased to hear that? Delighted.

The union has supported me throughout my adult life. I owe

them quite a lot. I would not be here without the trade union

movement. I remember that. We have to have that solidarity. It is

about those on minimum wage, the cleaners and other people like that.

They feel so strongly about it. What difference will it make?

Government said the strike was a damp squib. That is the Prime

Minister being stupid. Over 2 million people on strike, the chaos

that was called in -- there was causing chaos -- Inkatha of. -- in

Cardiff. We need to pay people a good pension at the end of their

public sector job. I get cross when people who have had good pensions

want to say you have to make a tough decision. Do you think the

changes proposed by the Government on pensions are inevitable? They

are. If the Labour Party had been in power, they would have to face

it, too. It is a fact of life. It has been said many times but it has

become a cliche. We cannot go on as we are. We will be back with you

before the end of the programme. Already on am.pm, we have heard

from the leading voices in Plaid Cymru and the Welsh Conservatives.

Who has not got for us next? I have got that leader of the Welsh

Liberal Democrats, Kirsty Williams. Let us talk about the Budget. Your

party made the decision to help the Government out and get the budget

through. Why did you do that? were very clear that in these

difficult times, this institution needed to agree a budget and in

doing so we have been able to secure additional funding for our

poorest school children from next year. Every child that is on free

school meals will have additional resources in their school to help

them reach their potential. Those children often do not get the

education qualifications they need to provide for themselves and their

future families. We are taking steps to address that. Let us look

at schools. It is �450 per pupil for over 70,000 pupils. Will that

money goes straight to the school? Yes. It will not go via local

authorities. They will go from the Government here to those schools to

allow her teachers and classroom teachers to decide how best to

spend that money and support to those children. We know those

children can do better in school but we need to give them help. We

need to give the school resources. Is this a prelude to some kind of

formal coalition between your party and Labour? He is very need for

that now? -- is there any need? Part of the deal we were able to

agree between the Liberal Democrats and the Government is we would have

a say in the substantial amount of money, almost �260 million, that

was given to Wales in the Autumn Statement from Westminster. We will

have a say in how that is spent. We made it clear after the May

elections we would work with the Government here to achieve good

things for the Welsh economy and for public services. We will be

using our influence and ideas in how to spend that money. That has

got to be positive rather than politicians arguing. I wonder

whether, given the way the world works, whether there is an informal

agreement to move forward towards the next election in this way,

where have all things stay the same, you would continue to support

budgets in the future? This is a deal for this year's budget. We are

proud to have been able to achieve what we have done. For next year's

budget, we will have something different. Be in these difficult

times, political parties work together in a mature way, that is

important. We have done that this year and we are committed to doing

that next year. But, no, this is not a coalition. We are getting his

Budget through and achieving one of our manifesto commitments. That is

your primary objective. There is a political element to this, too.

Does it help you to be doing a deal with Labour as a party here in

Wales, showing there is a bit of distance between yourselves and the

coalition government at Westminster? It is not about that

at all. It is about providing some stability here in Wales at a

difficult economic time for the country. I do not think any citizen

would have rewarded political parties who created a budget crisis

here. It is about achieving good things for our school children. It

is not about positioning or Messaging, it is about the Liberal

Democrats being able to use that tools we have here to achieve our

manifesto commitment. But you have council elections coming up next

year. It will be easier going into those elections being able to say,

look at what we are doing for local schools? It is helpful politically,

too. Yes. I am very proud of the fact our activists will be able to

point to the fact, despite having a small group here if in the Assembly,

they had and its -- they had an influence on decision-making and

achieved a very important policy. It is not just about the schools,

is about increasing the number of apprenticeships and people who are

losing their jobs, giving them skills to get them back into the

workplace. But yes, these are important elections. I am proud of

us and the services we are delivering. What is the great

lesson of this year been for you and what are your great hopes for

the next year? I do not know about lessons. It has been a very

challenging and busy year in Welsh politics. My hopes for next year

I'll we are able to continue put forward positive ideas, tackle the

problems of a weak economy, schools that have been underfunded and an

NHS that is costing us more but delivering less for patients.

that come back to bite you? The fact that the Tories will point to

that? We already spend more on the NHS in Wales and the results are

worse. We need to make sure we are spending well. Chucking more money

at it will not solve the problem. Thank you.

We will turn to my mind guests on the sofa. A brief response to

Kirsty Williams. What do you make of it? I am disappointed that they

supported them. We realised something has to give. We were

looking to support -- looking for their support. I was asking people

what their main concerns were if in the build up to the election and

health always came up on top. We wanted to support it. If you listen

to the Conservatives, they are taking hundreds of millions of

pounds out of their health budget. We are not. Conservatives are

taking 20% out of the her education budget. I think the deal we have

done with the Liberal Democrats is to put money into those

disadvantaged communities all those pupils in those communities. Will

you be happy for them to take credit for that? Will you be

pitting them straight? I will put them straight in my constituency!

People want to see a budget settled. People want to know they have got

their services. The Tories say they are friends of the Health Service,

but they are not. They say they want to put more money in many or

government. Yes, at the cost of education. You have to balance it

out. If you are leaving schools without money, we will miss a

generation of children. By Dan see from past experience -- I can see,

a generation of children that we are now picking the tab up for. Is

important we keep the education budget. We must look to health, too.

We have to work on priorities, we have to work on what people want.

There is a limit to what we can spend. Yes, maybe there would have

been some cutbacks in education... 20%. But we would have invested in

the Health Service. Let us leave the Budget there. In a few moments,

this programme finishes. You have a month off. I think that is an

unfair comment! Is often said, since I have been here, but I say,

it is just the Senedd is not meeting. We are still doing things

in the constituencies. It is quite busy. -- of the Senedd.. Of course,

you also have a home life. There is plenty to do. Ann Jones, you will

be working hard. Yes. Anything we do in constituencies, I am just

going to say, I will have a good Christmas but I hope everyone else

will, too. Thank you. That is it from us. I have a mince pie here