11/01/2012 am.pm

Good morning and welcome to am.pm on a Wednesday, the first of 2012.

We have a full programme for you today. Proposed bound to changes

aim to cut Wales's 40 MPs down to 30. They will also look at the

issue of Scottish independence. New legislation aims to support young

Joining me on the sofa and are Aled Roberts and Bethan Jenkins the

Assembly members. I mention Boundary changes in the headlines.

We will have opportunity to discuss that later. We will begin with the

referendum on Scottish independence. The Scottish First Minister says

his government has a mandate to hold it in the autumn of 2014. The

row threatens to escalate into a constitutional crisis between the

Scottish government and Westminster. Some people within the UK

government might agree with Alex Salmond but it was none of David

Cameron's business to interfere? was the diktat about the

timetabling. Legally, the position is that the UK constitution is a

matter for the UK Parliament. We need to be mature about this and

the need to be discussions between both bodies regarding the timing

and there is an issue regarding the Actual question. We need to stand

back and have a mature discussion regarding the situation. A mature

discussion is not what is happening this week? I do not think it has

anything to do with the personality. It has been said that it would

contravene the law if the UK can moment and said they could not

press on with the referendum. It is obviously political wrangling in

the sense that David Cameron is fighting to save the Union when he

knows Alex Salmond and the SNP are riding a tide of support for

independence in Scotland which will clearly have an effect on Wales and

other parts of the UK. If there is or a referendum, it is more likely

to be defeated if it is sooner rather than later. David Cameron

wants to save the Union. We believe in a federal relationship within

the United Kingdom. Alex Salmond once it when they will be

celebrating the Battle of Bannockburn. Everyone will be proud

of being Scottish then. The legal position his we are talking about

the constitutional settlement required within the UK. Scotland

have the right to hold the referendum. It is politically

binding on the UK constitution. touched on the knock-on effects to

Wales. How do you see a positive result affecting Wales? It would

affect Wales and the whole concept of retaining the UK and that is

something David Cameron and all the Unionist parties are concerned

about it. You have to look up the whole make-up of politics and how

we were potentially have a more centralised so -- system and how

Our relationship with the UK government would work. The Scottish

government would have a different set-up. It is all very exciting.

They are for you. Independence is a road you would like to go down?

course. That is other raison d'etre. That would also mean more powers

for Wales. Plenty to talk about throughout the rest of the

programme. Before we do that, we will find out what is happening in

Cardiff Bay today. Morning. It promises to be a lively event this

afternoon on the first Wednesday after the festive period. The

thorny subject of school banding is due to come up. There was a lot of

criticism about the new way the Welsh Government has gone about

grading or ranking secondary schools in Wales. They accuse them

of setting up time Pip -- tables in a different way. There will be an

opposition debate by Plaid Cymru. Carl Sargeant will be speaking. It

could be a proud day for Ken Skates, he won the ballot in terms of

bringing forward backbencher debate. He will try to bring forward

legislation on young people leaving care. Concerns will be aired about

the economic renewal programme. Angela Burns will finish off with

Aled ap Dafydd Phil descend there. You can find out more on our

website. -- Aled ap Dafydd filled us in there. That is the menu for

Cardiff Bay today. What is on the agenda at Westminster? Happy New

Year. Good to see you again. Nice to see you back in our cubbyhole.

We have some details about the proposed changes to the

parliamentary boundaries. 10 fewer MPs at and constituency changes for

the next election. When this idea was originally proposed, Labour and

Plaid Cymru MPs talked about gerrymandering and a stitch-up that

would harm non-Conservative parties in Wales. Now they have seen the

details, I sense the outrage is more muted. You're still here talk

of boundaries being put in constituencies. But there is a

relief. A lot of high-profile MPs will be spared a bottle -- but the

battle for selection in their seats. Lots of the seats that disappear,

you can almost see natural retirements or the House of Lords

as it is known here. We are 20 minutes away from the first Prime

Minister's Questions of the year. It is a big day for all David

Miliband -- for Ed Miliband. A very difficult time for him. There have

been noises off from Labour Party activists about his performances as

Leader of the Opposition and questions about whether he has got

it. His poll rating is pretty dire at the moment. The moment he stands

up, they will be a lot of cheers from the conservative side because

at the moment, his poll rating suggests he is less popular than

the Labour Party. He will say if you look at some of the issues,

other parties are now talking about a high levels of executive pay and

responsible capitalism, these are ideas he first highlighted. The

problem is, as far as voters are concerned, he is not getting the

credit for that. The governing parties here have now been moving

all over his agenda. David Cameron is promising to look at some of

these issues. If they are not hearing him saying it, he will

never get the credit. There was a line in the Telegraph yesterday

that Ed Miliband was like the woman who told the joke at a dinner party

and nobody laughed until a man opposite the repeated it more

loudly. It is hard for an opposition leader and the politics

of government is so interesting, to get a hearing. He argues the

election is still three and a half years away so he has time between

now and then to get to the British people. We will see when he stands

up. Cheryl Gillan may be the bookie's favourite to be the next

Cabinet minister to resign. Is she still there? I would not go to the

bookies and put money on her being the next person to resign of her

own free will. There are indications that the high-speed

rail link changes the government announced yesterday including a

rather long tunnel through her constituency will actually be

enough to buy off her opposition. The Transport Secretary said she

now agreed this was the right brought with the right mediation to

paraphrase what to sting Greening said. I put it this morning whether

the Welsh secretary supported it but they are not answering yet.

There's a lot of anger in the constituency about this project but

it seems Cheryl Gillan can be more effective in making the changes are

from inside the Cabinet. mentioned someone repeating a joke,

and what do you do if you find yourself a whole -- in a whole, dig

yourself a tunnel exit which Iraq Let us go over to Aled ap Dafydd it.

The subject of a backbench debate today is tabled in the name of

Angela Burns and it involves a whistle-blowing. What are your

concerns? Huge concerns. There is a slight impression that it is about

causing trouble. I have been an Assembly Member for not quite five

years yet and I have seven cases on my books of people who have seen

appalling wrongs and injustices and have tried to put them right within

the framework they operate in and have been stonewalled, they have

lost their jobs and income and ability to earn money in their

chosen field. They have lost confidence and have been persecuted

essentially for standing up and doing the right thing. You talk

about the framework in place. The Auditor-General has some powers but

the Auditor-General bases his decision on whether or not to

investigate and whether it is an effective use of resources in the

public interest. Does that give the Auditor-General enough powers?

That is way down the road. I am talking about cases where people

have gone to the police, social services, the children's

commissioner or their Assembly Member to try to prevent or stop

something awful from happening. They have been unable to achieve

any of that because none of us have the powers to step in and prevent

an abuse. Do you accept there is a difference between people who are

voicing legitimate concerns and people who are making frivolous

complaints or might have a vendetta against an employer? I totally

agree with that. The kind of cases I have looked at and I bring

forward are ones with these people have been proven right. All the

agencies after the event, but they still have no recourse. We are

asking people to do the right thing. To stand up and be counted. Go out

there into your employment and be counted. We need to stand forward

and say this is wrong, there is no one to support them. That is a real

concern and it affects an enormous A colleague of yours has accused

others of acting like a Mafia don a Mathur, D you agree? This is not a

political issue. This is ensuring that we as a society have a moral

obligation to stand behind somebody who identify is wrong doing. We

should help them put it right, or if we are an able to do that, up

when they it then have their life fall apart after words, then we

help them pick that life back up. This is about all governments

throughout the world, in my opinion, it having the balls to stand behind

you or me or anybody else trying to do the right thing. The final

whistle has blown on us. Thank you for joining us.

Still to come on am.pm we will be going live to the House of Commons

for Prime Minister's Questions at midday.

A Valleys MP is stepping up his campaign to change Welsh regional

rugby. The Labour MP for Pontypridd believes the current structure of

teams in Llanelli, Swansea and Cardiff without a professional side

to support. He has commissioned a study on the feasibility of

creating a new top flight team representing the South Wales

Valleys. He has been speaking to our reporter, Adrian Browne.

What is wrong with regional rugby? It is an alien concept. We are a

rugby nation that has been predicated on clubs for the last

130 years. Regional rugby, I think lots of us always felt at walls --

felt it was something that did not fit with Wales all in tune with our

history, tradition or culture. Those of us that felt that have

been borne out by people failing to buy into it. What's more, it has

never been truly regional. It has not embrace the wider region. It

has been based on city clubs in Cardiff, Newport, Swansea and

Llanelli. So it does not work. People have not bought into it and

I don't think it is here for the long term. The time is right for us

to think about trying to reform it and capitalise on the great passion

we have for rugby right across south Wales, but in the Valleys in

particular. We in the valleys are utterly disenfranchised. We do not

have the professional side to support. In places like Pontypridd,

there is a deep feeling that it is unfair, undemocratic and it does

not play to the strength of the game. And you have lost your

campaign, the latest age which is in a petition? We have, yes. 24

hours into calling on a petition has not really worked. They ought

to think again. 24 hours in we have had over 500 people signed. I am

confident we will have thousands of signatures. We have had people from

right across south Wales and north Wales. People from right across

Wales. They have all signed it. Even the ex England prop signed it

saying it is shameful that we do not have a valid his team all about

his voice in rugby terms in Wales. There is a widespread recognition

and now we are moving the campaign on. People are telling me we ought

to step up the campaign and possibly hold a rally here at

Sardis Road which is the National home of a valley is a region. I

think we are now going to do that and take that perdition to WRU are

soon as we can. If there is so much concern, and we are often hearing

Welsh politicians stressed their commitment, why are they not

talking about it? I don't think it is just me. Traditionally there has

been a sense that sport and politics don't mix. I think that is

a cliche and is completely wrong. If you tried saying that in France

where local authorities really use the fact that they have good

sporting facilities and first class suck -- first-class sports in their

Locale as a stimulus for getting people to want to live, work and

locate businesses in those areas, that is why politics should mix

with sports. That is why local politicians need to understand that

rugby in our area, in particular, could be a catalyst for social and

economic regeneration. In particular that is true in the

valleys. We have to wait up to that. Shouldn't you be working, perhaps,

more collegiate the with the WRU. This is quite an aggressive public

campaign. Might it not be more effective to do more behind-closed-

doors? I am not interested in doing more behind closed doors. I think

that is the public concern for this community. One of the things this

community cares about his sport. One of the things this community

most cares about in -- is a rugby. That sense that we have local

heroes that ought to be playing on this pitch, we have people we want

inspiring our youngsters and instilling a sense of pride and

aspiration in this area. They should be our people on our pitch.

They should be ballets come and does not people in Cardiff. All

wear ever else people from this area have had to go and play.

you get a Christmas card from the WRU? No, and I am not expecting one.

A brave man taking on the WRU. We have had a statement saying they

have told us they will always consider instructive and informed

opinions are related to the future of Welsh rugby. Several months ago,

Mr Smith informed the WRU that he will prepare a business plan for

regional organisation status in the Pont de bred area. What do our

guests think about this? -- upon to I have done a lot with Rugby League

in Wales and obviously with football and I think there is a

place for politics to make with sport but I would air on the side

of all -- at Ayr on the side of caution. We do not want to have a

pretend interest in sport just because constituents happen to like

sport in the area. Heaven forbid. Am sure a politician would never

dream of doing that. In your area, the Crusaders have had their ups

and downs, haven't they? Is that something you would raise here if

you had to? It has been an issue for the football club as well. Big

issues with Wrexham FC surviving. Doing extremely well at the moment

and hopefully we will beat Brighton next week, but you know, in reality

I think the groundwork has to be done on the patch. It is all very

well raising the issue in Westminster, but the big issue in

north Wales is the fact that, apart from Wrexham, there is very little

opportunity for people in North Wales to see first-class board.

That is the issue I would raise. you want to see first passport, go

and watch Rail FC. I will not question that. We will go back to

our lead in the Oriel. The committees are also in session. You

are going to talk about EU funding? Yes indeed. And no future we will

be reliant on EU funding. It has had a big impact on poorer

communities, but what should be the purpose of structural funds pose

2013? That was the matter de Mai -- debated this morning. The

federation for small businesses was giving evidence. What did you tell

the committee this morning? We told the committee that they need to

include business on every level of the planning and delivery. These

funds are about engaging and developing business and increasing

forgings and the economic value of Wales. If you are going to do that,

it is important to engage with business. There have been

criticisms with the way European money has or has not been spent.

Some say we have not seen a net profit from the money. Is that a

concern of yours? If we were using our structural funds well the first

time round, we would not make them a second time. We know Wales

economy it faces long-term problems and the global it economy is

causing problems for us here, but nevertheless, if we had done the

job the first or second time, we would not need funds a third time

round. Are there any bureaucratic barriers in the way of companies

Accessing structural funds? think so. We think the bureaucratic

burden comes in the way of administration. The way we manage

those funds needs to be done in a way that is business-friendly. The

point made this morning is that businesses are getting their hands

on some of this funding and there are intermediate to projects. But

our major concern is when we talk about one thing out on the end,

that businesses are getting what they need and deserve, bureaucracy

is a problem. It has to be the servant not the master. Some people

have raised concerns that the outcome of the last European summit

will have a knock on effect that Wales will, through United Kingdom,

will not be represented at the top table when it comes to discussions

and that could lead to a cash shortfall coming to Wales. Is that

a concern? We do not want to see it Wales or the wider economy

marginalised within Europe. We have to accept that whatever your

political stance is, Wales is part of Europe. We trade there, do

business there and it is important we have discussions at the top

table. Thank you very much. Before we go to Prime Minister's

Questions, a quick chat with our guests. David Cornock gave us a few

pointers, dignity? Let's concentrate on Ed Miliband. TUC

today as an important Prime Minister's Questions for him after

what happened over the weekend? think he has entered a critical

period. There is something going on. He probably would not call it a

relaunch, but that is the reality of the situation. They are

struggles ongoing within the Labour Party regarding whether they go to

plan B or not. Defence secretary Jim Murphy suggesting that they

would have to stick with the same spending plan as the coalition

government. This seems to be a big issue at that Labour have not

sorted out what they are doing. I think Ed Miliband is stuck in the

middle. We also discussed with David the Scottish issue. That is

bound to come up, isn't it? I can't believe that it would not come up

with all of the attention in the press. Nick Sturgeon has been

defending a Scotland's rights and I think that should be on the agenda.

I am not sure how Ed Miliband would approach the subject because I am

sure he would agree with DEC it Cameron that the union should be

retained. Lots of Labour MPs in Scotland, of course. Of course. So

they will be thinking about their jobs. On the idea of the Scottish

independence, if you look across the House of Commons, there are not

many that would be in favour of it, are there? Maybe three of your

Plaid Cymru colleagues and some of the SNP. Some of the members

potentially from the north of Ireland although we know that sin

Fein do not sit at Westminster. But I think it is important that MPs

are not totally up with the discussion on independence for them

to hear the debate and understand what happens outside of their own

borders and their own issues. I think that it will be something we

will all find interesting. David Cameron had to apologise over the

weekend for a jibe he made at Ed Balls suggesting that he was like

somebody that had to Lorette. Do you think maybe a toning down of Ed

Balls's hand gestures to they? sure he will have had advice over

the weekend, but the reality is, he was misplaced and hopefully will

get down to debate rather than personal slanging matches. And we

had our First Minister's Questions of the year yesterday. That was

quite feisty, wasn't it? Carwyn Jones described Plaid Cymru as an

old banger that had broken down. When you get personal like that,

you can always tell that they are losing the argument and Colin joked

me is to show more stature in his dealings with their economy. He

knows his stuff. I think the fact that no letter has been written

regards to the economy to the UK government to say and a lot to and

We will head over to Westminster now. This is the end of questions

and they are discussing the Scottish referendum. The honourable

gentleman's questions go through the honourable gentleman in this

House. Questions to the Prime I am sure the whole House would

wish to join me in paying tribute to the servicemen who have fallen

in the service of our country since we last met. Captain Tom Jennings,

Squadron Leader and Anthony Downing, private John King, and of the

riflemen from the Royal kickers who died after a long period in

hospital. -- did workers. Their coverage and selflessness will not

be forgotten. They have made our country more secular and our

thoughts should be with their families and loved ones. I have

been meeting ministerial colleagues and others this morning. The whole

House would wish to associate itself with the tribute. Can I ask

the Prime Minister to join with me in congratulating and Investment in

stating -- in creating a state of the at facility in my constituency.

More than 12 and the people are now employed in that facility.

Unfortunately, the food standards agency is blocking exports from

this excellent plant to the Far East. Can the Prime Mr a shower me

that job destroying unnecessary -- the Prime Minister assured me that

unnecessary bureaucracy can be dealt with? I will do everything I

can to help resolve the situation. I am happy to ask the Minister from

their fry-up to meet with me on the situation. -- D E F R A. They would

agree with the premise or in paying tribute to look the fallen

servicemen. All of them showed enormous courage and bravery. They

made sacrifices on our behalf and our deepest condolences go to their

families and friends. The Chancellor said in the Autumn

Statement that train fares would only go up by 1% over inflation.

Why have rail companies increase their fares by up to 11%? The power

was given to them to do that by the last Labour government. No, Mr

Speaker, the Prime Minister is wrong. The last Labour government

stopped them doing that and his Prime Minister, when he came to

office, a reverse that policy. That is why the companies are able to

increase the fares. Will he now stand up to the train companies and

get a better deal for commuters and change his policy? I know the

honourable gentleman had a difficult start to the year, but he

made it worse by getting it wrong. Labour allowed fare increases of up

to 11% in 2009 because they introduced this idea of the

flexibility of 5%. What was the case in 2009 is the case today. The

key issue is there are only two places money can come for the rail

companies. Either the taxpayer or the passengers. We are electrifying

the Great Western main line and we're Electa find the line between

Manchester and Liverpool. We are putting money into CrossRail and we

are building a high-speed railway as well. The Prime Minister is

wrong about that fact. The last Labour government so the train

companies were taking advantage of consumers, ripping them off buy

increasing fares on the busiest routes and we stopped it. We took a

way that power. He came to office and brought the power back. He made

the wrong decision. As for the idea this is to help the passenger, the

National Audit Office or the last month warned the problem was this

money will probably lead to an increase for train operating

companies. Can he reverse the policy? We originally set out a

policy with 3%. We looked at reducing debt to 1%. Presumably, he

supports the electrification of the Great Western rail line and the

railway lines in the north-west. He will be touring the country saying

he supports these things but she is never prepared to take difficult

decisions to support them. It is time... The answers from the Prime

Minister will be heard. It is time for him to listen to his Defence

Secretary who wrote over Christmas there is a difference between

populism and popularity. That his credibility. It is time to have

that. He should get his facts right about his own policy. He is just

along. He says he is continuing the policy of the last Labour

government. He is simply wrong on that fact. The last Labour

government saw what the train companies were doing and put an end

to it. The Prime Minister said at the weekend he wanted to take

action against crony capitalism. He has failed -- failed at the first

hurdle. Will he reversed the policy? We are now on to the issue

of people's pay. On the issue of the rail fares, let me declare

Labour into does the policy of 5% flexibility. They changed it for

one year only, the election year, with no intention of making it

permanent. If he does not know that, he should. If he wants to get on to

the issue of executive pay, he is untied -- entirely the right to

raise this issue. Order. I want to hear the answer. Order. Order.

However long it takes, I will. is right to raise the issue of

executive pay and unlike the last government would did nothing for 13

I understand my right honourable friend has given one present and I

am about to ask for another. My constituents on the Kent Coast line

have been paying up to 10% increases under the last Labour

government for the last four years. Mr Speaker, in congratulating this

Government against -- in its courageous decision to pursue high

speed railway, can ask him to tackle unfinished business. The

high-speed railway only runs a certain way. Can it be extended?

Can I congratulate my right honourable friend on his well

deserved honour for his service for many years for his constituents. He

is right about what has happened under the last government where

regulated fares went up by 18% and unregulated fares went up by more

than 23%. At the issue of the first high-speed railway, I will look at

it. But it is an advertisement for what you can get by linking up a

high-speed railway and it helps to rebuild a stronger economy. Over

80,000 pensioners in Liverpool only got �100 this winter following a

government cut to winter fuel allowance. Will the Prime Minister

adopt a Labour policy in ensuring energy companies put their elderly

customers on to the cheaper tariff for gas and electricity? Rather

like the leader of her party, there is an outbreak of amnesia on the

Labour benches. We have kept the policy on the winter fuel allowance.

We are meeting in for all the promises that she made and her

party made about the winter fuel allowance. They introduced a higher

payments only for election year but we have made them permanent.

Prime Minister will have experienced the quality of nursing.

What can you do to make sure that patients throughout the country get

the highest possible of care throughout the NHS? I remember and

will never forget the time I spent at the Royal Cornwall Hospital and

the happy days I had there. We do have high standards of nursing care

throughout the country. I do not think we're serving our

constituents probably if we do not highlight the cases that do go

wrong. It is incumbent on government to highlight best

practice in the best hospitals. Let us copy those best practices across

the country. I went to ask the Prime Minister about Scotland. We

on this side of the House believe in a United Kingdom and that it

benefits the people of Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom in

equal measure. We are stronger together and weaker apart. Does the

premise that agree with me that we must make the case of the Union,

not simply against separatism but the positive case about the shared

benefit to us all? The shared economic interest, the shared

institutions like the NHS and our defence forces and the BBC and the

shared values we hold together. am happy to say this is an area

with the right honourable gentleman and I are in 100% agreement. I

passionately believe in the future of our United Kingdom. We are

strongly together. I am sad that we are even having this debate because

I support the United Kingdom so strongly. Scotland voted for a

separatist party at their parliamentary elections. The right

thing to do is to make clear the legal position. We have made the

offer that we will devolve the power to hold that referendum so

that the referendum can be made in Scotland and held in Scotland. I

look forward to having the debate because I think there has been too

many in the SNP who are happy to talk about the process, the do not

want to talk about the substance. I sometimes feel when I listen to

them it is not a referendum they want but they never run them. It

does have the debate and keep our country together. Can I agree with

the Prime Minister and say this is not about a fate about process

between the Westminster government and the Scottish government or

between the British Prime Minister and the Scottish First Minister.

The way to tackle that is to have immediate cross-party talks in

Scotland about the issues of the timing of the referendum and the

nature of the question and the vital involvement of the electoral

commission. Disciplines are also agree with me that we need to to

get beyond process and have the discussion about the substantive

issues involved? This is an issue that our children and grandchildren

will have to live with if we get it wrong. We need an inclusive debate

on what the choices are and the benefits to Scotland of staying

within the United Kingdom. On this issue, the people of our country

deserve nothing less than serious debate about the benefits of the

I think the right honourable gentleman is right on three points.

I think it is important now that the SNP have come out and made more

clear what it is they want to do. I am happy for the UK government to

speak directly to the Scottish parliament and come to a conclusion

about the best time and the best way to hold this referendum, but it

must be clear, legal, decisive and fair. Those are the absolute keys.

I absolutely agree with the right honourable gentleman. As soon as

those are settled we need to get on to substance. As the honourable

gentleman who are keen to leave the United Kingdom, I can't understand

why they are keen to put of the question for so long. What action

will the Prime Minister take to tackle the issue of forced marriage

both in the UK and globally. think the honourable lady is right

to raise this issue. We have taken some steps, as the last government,

to crack down on the practice of forced marriage which tragically

takes place in too many communities in our country. We are looking at

the issue of whether we should take legal powers and make it a criminal

offence. I am taking a personal issue with this defence as it is

unacceptable for a civilised country like ours to have a

barbaric practice. Nottinghamshire police said areas of deep

deprivation and high crime levels and have ambitious crime reduction

targets. H M I seek say that Nottingham is one of five forces

facing the most difficult challenge him protecting thank -- front lines

and cuts will effect that front line. Isn't it time to implement

the formula to give my local force their resources they need. I will

look carefully, but what I would say is that all police forces are

making efficiencies. I would praise chief constables for the steps they

are taking to deliver these reductions while still reducing

crime levels. In terms of Nottingham, there are still 47

officers in back office jobs. There are still trained officers working

in her age are and corporate development. There is further work

to be done to civilian eyes those parts of the force and make sure

all officers are on their front line. Thank you Mr Speaker.

Following the murder of my constituent by a former partner and

a rapist, I presented a bail Amendment Bill to this house. In

October, the justice team agree to change the law. Could the Prime

Minister confirm to the house and to Jane's parents who are in the

gallery today, when that will happen. First of all, can I pay

tribute to my honourable friend for the word he has done on this issue

and on this case. Our sympathies go out to the family who have suffered.

The government accepts they should be a right of appeal against Crown

Court decisions allowing bail. There is that right in magistrates'

court so there is a strong case for changing the law and we will be

tabling an amendment in a change creating a right of appeal to High

Court judge against the grant of bail by a Crown Court. I hope this

will improve the law, be more helpful to victims and give

satisfaction to the family he is representing so well. The Scottish

government was elected with an overwhelming mandate to deliver an

independence referendum in the second half of the parliamentary

term. It is a fact. In contrast, the Conservative Party has less

Members of Parliament than there are giant pandas in Edinburgh Zoo.

Why is the prime minister trying to emulate Margaret Thatcher by

dictating to Scotland? Quite the opposite. We want to give to

Scotland the power to hold a legal referendum. That is the power that

we are giving and right across this house, there is uniform believe

that that needs to happen. So discussions can now be entered into

about the timing of the referendum, the precise nature of the

referendum and to make sure it is fair, decisive, the people of

Scotland deserve nothing less. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Care of our

older people are ill is one of the most pressing issues in the country

today. Will the Prime Minister join me in welcoming eight UK's care in

crisis campaign. And while he admits that the White Paper in

spring or present a real way forward? I pay tribute to my friend

that Europe -- to my honourable friend. I think we have a huge

challenge to rise to this agenda and we want to do so through this

white paper. There are three elements, we have to do something

about the rising cost of domicile care. Improve the care that people

receive. Address the issue of people having to sell their homes

and assets to pay for care. We are looking hard at these issues and

working out a way forward that will be right for the care system.

the Sunday Times showed that in the last two years the 1000 richest

people in Britain got richer by �137 billion, enough to pay off the

entire deficit, will he therefore tax them to fund the creation of 1

million jobs which have up far better way of cutting the deficit

then prolonged austerity. For a minute I thought he was talking

about a Prime Minister he served under. Of course I think it is

essential to reduce the deficit and take difficult decisions while

being fair. The fact is, what we have done so far is show the top

10% of the country are paying 10 times more than the bottom per

Saint of the country. The top percent on not only paying more in

cash terms, but as a percentage of their income. As we go ahead, I

want to make sure that people behave responsibly. I'm sure both

you and the Prime Minister will want to congratulate Mr Tony

wattling he served as postmaster far over 60 years and has still not

retired and is carrying on, however, people are being let down by no

post office out reach. Will the Prime Minister encouraged the Post

Office to ensure all rural villages are served. I certainly join my

honourable friend it in paying tribute to Mr what length. To run

the Post Office for 60 years is a huge achievement and it is people

like that but keep the country going. The government has committed

�1.3 billion to improve the network. As a condition, the Post Office

must maintain 11,500 branches, but I think the point she makes about

mobile post offices is a good one. It is a way to serve many more

communities. Thank you, Mr Speaker. The Deputy Prime Minister is

reported to have said in the last few days, that in due course, the

United Kingdom will sign up to the same EU treaty that the Prime

Minister rejected only a short time ago. Was the Deputy Prime Minister

correct? The position is very straightforward, we did not... We

did not sign the treaty because we were not, we did not get the

safeguards that we received an so that situation is not going to

change. What coalition partners want to put in their manifesto for

the next election is up to them. Does the Prime Minister agree that

people should pay their taxes, keep their businesses on the shore and

not live as tax exile's leaving pensioners high and dry? What is

the Prime Minister doing to stamp out predatory practices? For all

the lectures about predatory capitalism and saying we have to

tax the thumb businesses, the 1% that the leader of the opposition

has chose to advise him on this issue, bases all of his companies

in the British Virgin Islands! Prime Minister, the funding for the

UK resource centre for women in science, engineering and technology

has been cut. Given there are 1 million women unemployed and women

make up 1.3% of people in science and technology, could the Prime

Minister look again at spending and thereby restore Britain as a

leading role for science that nurtured the talents of Dorothy

Hodgkin. I'll certainly look in the case. And she knows, despite making

difficult decisions, we did not cut the science budget and in the

Autumn Statement, the Chancellor provided a series of enhance month

a science-based projects. I will look at the specific one mentioned

and get back to her. To date, unfortunately, is the 10th

anniversary of the opening of Guantanamo Bay. The despicable

institution which still holds one UK National. Will the Prime

Minister commit to do all he can to see that 2012 is the last year that

this institution operates? My right honourable friend is working hard

to try and secured this issue and bring this chapter to a close. As

he will know, we have also taken steps as a country to try and

achieve some closure about what happened in the past by a

settlement with those people who were in Guantanamo Bay and also

setting up a proper enquiry to make sure that the British government

was not complicit in any way in terms of torture to those people in

Guantanamo Bay or elsewhere. Thank you, Mr Speaker. A moment ago the

Prime Minister was clear that it is due -- crucial that policy is fair

and seen to be fair. Can the Prime Minister confirm that the 50% tax

rate on incomes above the hundred and �50,000 will remain in place

for the duration of this Parliament? We take the same point

of view as the shadow chancellor, former shadow Chancellor when he

introduced it be said it should be a temporary measure. We should also

take a judgment on how much money this tax is raising. The purpose is

to raise money for funds to put into public services and it is

important that we look into it in practice. Would the Prime Minister

congratulate the Secretary of Transport and the good workers for

securing the �188 million contract on 28th December and the

announcement on the Toronto stock exchange that was so important to

the workers in Derbyshire? congratulate everyone for winning

the contract. As I have said before, I want the government to be a good

customer of British firms and work with its supply chain and not make

mistakes at the last government made that drew up the contract for

the railway service which bum by DEA did not win. Mr Speaker, the

Prime Minister will be aware that the chief executive of the Stock

Exchange 100 company is paid 35 times as much as a hospital

consultant who saves lives. If he is going to act tough on higher pay,

can he give a date within the lifetime of this Parliament when we

will see that obscene 35 times multiple come tumbling down? On the

issue of pay ratio, I think we should make progress on the issue

of pay re issued -- pay ratio. We can start with the government

outlining its own pay ratio by cutting ministers' pay and freezing

them and by having total transparency across government full

pay. On the issue of the specific case, the bond I would make is this,

this year we have seen a 49% increase in pay and yet and only 4%

increase in the FTSE. I am not against people running great

companies if they are growing and expanding and succeeding. What we

should not have its rewards for failure. Frankly the last

government had 13 years to deal with this and did sweet nothing.

Does the Prime Minister think that it can ever be fair for a single

family to receive �100,000 per year in housing benefit alone? I think

my honourable friend makes an important point. The top people's

pay issue and this issue are linked. We need to get rid of a something

for nothing culture in this country because we inherited and out of

control benefits system way you did get family is on tens of thousands

of housing benefit, and how to control immigration system where it

paid to cheat and and out of control banking system where reward

was not linked his success. We are going to deal with all of those

things. Prime Minister, the Cumbrian healthy economy is in

crisis, real crisis. How does he propose to deal with it? The first

and most important thing is that we are committed to year-on-year

increases in NHS spending. That is not a position backed by his own

party. Alongside the extra money, we need to make sure there is

reform so that we give clinicians a leading role and frankly, we have

to do more on the Public Health Promotion agenda because that is

the best way to reduce demands on our NHS. There is one extra thing

and that is looking at the links between alcohol and crime and

alcohol and hospital admissions which is putting massive pressure

on our NHS. It is an issue I want The ethnic cleansing and apartheid

are evil. Sadly, successive governments have supported a

country where these file actions are inflicted on the indigenous

people. We welcome the Arabs bring up the long Arab winter continues -

- Arab spring. Is it not time we took action against Israel as we

did against apartheid South Africa? We should respect the fact that

Israel is a democracy, a country that has a right to exist and has

frequently been threatened by its neighbours. We are also a country

that should stand up for Clear human rights and clear rights and

wrongs in international relations. This government has been very clear

that it does not agree with the practice by the Israeli government.

I have raised this issue myself with the Israeli Prime Minister in

a telephone call and will continue to act and vote on the issue of

illegal Israeli settlements. constituent of mine has leukaemia.

Despite an incredible campaign by her family to get more people to

join the blood stem cell register, she still does not have a match and

has to look overseas. What can the government do to raise public

awareness about this issue? I think the honourable lady is right to

speak up for Bethany specifically and all bone marrow sufferers. We

need to get more people on the register because the importance of

getting a match was at the government will be spending about

�4 million this year to help promote that and make that happen.

All of us in our own constituencies can promote the idea. Could I draw

my right honourable friend's attention to the excellent paper

published this morning which seems to build on the Government's

initiatives in building up Cadet forces on the one hand and getting

more former military personnel into schools as teachers. Military

academies and free schools could be put into our poorest constituencies.

Let me pay tribute to my honourable friend who does so much to speak up

for an hour a reserve and cadet forces. It is worth noting that

this year, the cadet forces would be doing a huge amount to try and

save and preserve hour war memorials from the appalling crime

they have been suffering in terms of metal theft. We should be

empowering our cadet forces to expand and go into parts of the

country where they have not always been present in the past. The link

between cadet forces and schools is a good idea. My constituents is 32

years of age, has lived alone for eight years and was forced on to

housing benefit because of redundancy. That benefit has just

been kept by nearly 15%. Does the Prime Minister believe the landlord

will reduce the payment or that she will be made homeless? I praise her

for her persistent efforts. Let me answer the question. All parties

are committed to reform housing benefit. That was Labour's

commitment before the last election for that the housing benefit system

is out of control. What we have seen so far as housing benefit has

been reformed and reduced is that we have seen rent levels come down.

We have stopped dripping off the taxpayer. Sq -- stopped ripping off

I feel we have spoken a lot about this already. Let us look at Ed

Miliband's performance. He stood up for his first question and it

seemed the Prime Minister gave him a bit of a slap down. The Prime

Minister implied the rail charges had been something Labour had

introduced while they were in power. They continued the questioning but

it seemed it was not going anywhere because of that fact. Ed Miliband,

unfortunately, is not doing so well at the moment. He really needs to

raise his game. The pair of you did not seem very impressed with him.

On a human level, did you think he was struggling? You would think,

given there has been talk of a relaunch, he would have been

prepared for this first appearance. In reality, he walked straight into

where David Cameron wanted him to go. He did not recover. I have my

own experience that politicians are human and they have feelings and

you do feel for him. But it is difficult to see how he will

recover. The Prime Minister did agree with Ed Miliband on the issue

of Scottish independence. That is not a surprise. Maybe what is a

surprise that although -- he did not put across the alternative view.

Numbers wise it is difficult. In reality, you're the SNP, Plaid

Cymru and maybe a few from Northern Ireland. You would have thought the

Speaker would have ensured there was a balance on the issue. This

could be important, if they went the SNP to think there is a

listening here at Westminster that the SNP are given an opportunity to

put that view across in the Chamber. He is trying to dictate when the

referendum happens. It is not happening as soon as David Cameron

would like it too. That undermines the whole concept of devolution and

the SNP government, can you imagine if David Cameron said to Carwyn

Jones you must hold the Welsh referendum on the state. The First

Minister would say we will decide those things ourselves. That is

something that needs to be aired and sorted before we have a further

debate on independence. I did not accept Ed Miliband's stance that

there should be an all-party meeting in Scotland. It is a matter

for the Scottish government and the UK government. That is where the

discussion needs to take place rather than a round table meeting

between the parties. We're talking about a respect agenda. We can

certainly see it is the case in Scotland as well. The government in

London is struggling to manage its relationships with governments here

and north of the border because they are not of the same party.

is an issue about the whole devolution process. It is not a

situation a UK government has been used to dealing with. That is part

of the maturing that needs to take place. We need to come out of this

with a more mature settlement where devolved administrations have

responsibility. It is part of the growing pains that we have at the

moment. It is very difficult because we have seen with the rail

electrification the fact that Cheryl Gillan is getting a tunnel

in here considered say and then questioned the benefits of Wales

getting electrification here. This used to be more progressive

dialogue between all of the nations of the United Kingdom. We need to

make it work while it still exists. That is something David Cameron and

the leaders of all parties need to consider for the future. They will

be poring over everything we have said today. Coming up on the

programme, the political map of Wales could change dramatically

under proposals by the Boundary Commission for Wales. The number of

MPs will be reduced by a quarter. It is time to go back to Aled ap

Dafydd. It is not just the Welsh Government to can bring forward

legislation. That possibility is also open to backbenchers. The

first name out of the ballot backbencher is Ken Skates. He joins

be now. Before we talk about the detail of your proposed legislation,

what about the principle that allows backbenchers to put forward

legislation? It is crucial vote democracy. It enables backbenchers

to take part directly in the law- making process. It is a different

way of working for you. You usually tend to scrutinise legislation that

is being put forward by government. How different is it? He suddenly

realise you're at the forefront of being scrutinised. It is a lot more

work. The Assembly commission assigns officers to assist with

legislation and so forth. There is a lot more work. Your proposed

legislation is about ensuring children are looked after through

the care system and beyond. Why did you pick that particular subject?

At the moment, we allow some of the most vulnerable and damaged people

to leave care to have virtually every aspect of their care and

support gone at the age of 18. That is terrible for society. It comes

at an enormous cost to the taxpayer because of the risk of looked after

children then going on to become prisoners. There are 13 times more

likely to go to prison. They are then more likely to reoffend and

that costs the nation around �10 billion a year. It is important

that we create a level playing field for look after children.

would have thought that those who are in care would possibly want the

-- would want to leave the care system as soon as they can. In

which way will this help? It would not prevent care leavers leaving at

the age of 18. If you leave at 16 and fine you cannot cope, there is

no way of going back in. I have heard from so many 17 and 18 euros

who are waiting for the care to be removed. There needs to be better

support post 18. They need to enjoy life in the way most sentient or 18

year-olds do. It is important to recognise the enormous amount of

work that has been taken place in Wales in the last decade. A massive

amount of work has gone into looked after children. Good work has been

taking place in a local authorities. It is important to give the

children the emotional support. those following your work through

to its conclusion, can you outline the timetable for the framework?

This will not be over in a week. It will take time. I am seeking

approval from my colleagues in the Assembly to prep the bill. After

that, it goes through a series of votes and scrutiny. It could be

some length of time for that the important thing is that throughout

this period, I am keen to make sure we have the voices of look after

children coming through. At the end Now, the former Plaid Cymru MP has

declared his support for an award to be the new party leader. Three

other candidates up in the race to succeed Ieuan Wyn Jones. We spoke

to Alan Price and asked him if his support for Leanne Wood was based

on their friendship? Well, I am friendly with all of the candidates

for Plaid Cymru leadership. Why I am particularly supporting Leanne

is the passion and clear vision that she has for the future of

Wales and I think she is a bridge builder. She is somebody that has

the ability to communicate outside of our particular political tribe

within our party and building new communities of support, new voters

for Plaid Cymru as the party of Wales. We call ourselves the party

of Wales, but here we have a leader that has the potential to build new

support in every corner of our nation. You say that the status quo

is not what Plaid Cymru needs in its new leader. Is that an

indication that you think the other three candidates represent more of

the same? Are a critical of the body politics. Politics as it is in

Wales at the moment. We are supposed to be a radical country,

but we are a country of small conservatism. We have a civil

service that is anti- innovation. New ideas are seen as a threat in

Wales. We have a Labour government that is the longest serving

government in Western Europe outside of Luxembourg, yet where

ever you look and compare Wales in terms of economic growth and

education, we are falling further behind. We are already at the

bottom of mini league tables. We need new ideas. The only way we

will get them is there a new generation of politicians. That is

what I see with Leanne. Her fight for the leadership is based on this

concept of what she refers to as true independence. It is a very

different concept to the one which the other three candidates might

hold in terms of their views on independence. Is that going to

hinder her approach to this leadership contest? Or is that

something that distinguishes her? think that... I thought that the

party had very clearly established its position on this. There have

been several conference motions. I don't think it's a matter of debate

any more. It does seem to be a matter of debate because we have a

herd Daffyd Ellis Thomas say different things about independence

compared to what Leanne would say. I think there is a philosophically

coherent position which has been present in Plaid Cymru over many

just a -- generations which does not like the word independence

because in terms of interdependence, can you truly be independent? That

is philosophically true, but we are in the world of nation-states and

the question is, does Wales want to be one of them or does it want to

be ruled by another? No country ever ruled another well and Wales

is a perfectly good example of that the way that our economy was

trashed over several generations. Femi, it is very simple. The only

way we can transform our country is if we have our hands in Wales on

the leaders of power that we need to create change. I think Leanne is

very clear about that. The next few weeks he on am.pm we

will hear from supporters of the other candidates and the candidates

themselves in the race to take over from Ieuan Wyn Jones. Every

constituency in Wales will change under the boundary commission. The

boundaries will be redrawn into 30 areas to meet new rules that mean

each must have 73,000 electors. Bethan Jenkins has been speaking to

three MPs about the issue. As you can imagine, the proposal to

cut the number of MPs from thought -- from 40 to 30 his concern to

some members from this place. I have some members joining me to

discuss the matter. Firstly, if I can start with you, quite a shake-

up in terms of the borders in North Wales. This i is our large

constituency is disappearing. Are you concerned? I don't think a

single Welsh MP would not be concerned. In terms of constituency

disappearing, the electorate have not disappeared. They just move to

a newly formed constituency. The question we have to ask, is why

they are being done. It is being done to try and ensure that we have

the same size of the electorate. you think it is a good idea to

change the electoral borders? view of what we are trying to

achieve in having the same number of electorate in each constituency,

that aim is something we should support. In Wales we currently have

lower electorate and yet we have an assembly member taking up a lot of

the work and we have 20 areas of policy where legislation is made in

Cardiff. In that context, it is difficult to argue that Wales

deserves higher representation. major casualty would be David

Jones? David would say that the casualty it would be myself, we

will see in due course. In terms of the accusations, I would argue that

it looks like the Conservative Party comes off worse than Labour.

I think it is bound to the fact that we have had the Labour Party

saying it is an effort to help the at Conservative Party. He does not

seem the case in Wales. Let's go to the Labour member. You will be in a

tricky situation fighting against Jonathan Evans as your constituency

will extend to Cardiff North. constituency will be buried in half.

I may enter an internal party or go up to the southern part of my

community. -- constituency. At this point, the message to get across is

that Wales representation is Westminster is being reduced by 25%.

The largest reduction anywhere in the United Kingdom. It is bad news

for their Labour Party. We are being disproportionately hit hard.

He would be losing MPs both in the north of Wales and in the Swansea

get our area? It is difficult to say where exactly, but as far as

Wells is concerned over all with the reduction of 40 down to 30,

Wales will be adversely effected and disproportionately effected.

Dear not think that it would make a fairer system to only have 30 MPs?

I don't think so. This is an argument we have had in the past

and the coalition has ram this through and it is bad news for

Wales. I want to see Wales having strong representation in the United

Kingdom and this piece of legislation will see a reduction.

That is bad for Wales. Roger Williams, who do you side with?

important thing is that uncertainty is over and we have proposals in

front of us. We have to now engage with communities, papilla -- public

services and businesses. It is going to take him to look the

spring of 2013 until final proposals are there to make sure

they are the best representation for Wales. I d believe that Wales

has equality with England and Scotland now and that is important

so that our representation is along the same lines. What about your own

constituency? It is going to be made even bigger. When you reduce

constituencies from 40 to 30, you will have larger constituency is in

terms of geographical area and population, but the legislation

sets out the maximum size of each constituency in the UK and actually,

there is no constituency that will be bigger than a third of that

maximum size. We do still want a fight that constituency if it is

larger? It will be hugely attractive and I love representing

rural areas so it remains a great attraction to me. One of the

fundamental weaknesses in this legislation is in those communities.

You have some bizarre configurations inevitably as a

result of legislation. If you look at South Wales, there is a seed

being suggested that extends from the north of the bally down to the

Bristol tunnel. That makes no sense at all. Monster constituency, do

you foresee that there will be opposition to these proposals?

hope the people of Wales will engage with this process. There are

some anomalies that need to be looked at, but they are still no

bigger than constituencies in England. In terms of geographical

area they are still smaller than some of Scotland. Wales, despite

having a low Assembly, where we have an additional member helping

on casework, we still believe we need higher representation than

other parts of the UK. That is the fundamental mistake here. Thank you

very much. A final chapter of our guests on

the topic of boundaries. A lead, I will begin with you. A couple of

them were talking about monster constituencies or constituents is

that do not make sense. If you look at North Wales, there is a bizarre

concoction in some constituencies. This idea of change is not a new

one, is it? Nothing new at all. Before then we had constituencies

which were brought together because of numbers so there is nothing new.

What is important is that we have proposals in front of us. There

will be opportunities for people to make representation within the

usual rules. What we need to sort out now is getting through the

period of uncertainty quickly. you had your Abacus out to

calculate how this will effect Plaid Cymru representation? All of

the anoraks are going through the month to see where we may lose out

all gain. I take a more pragmatic view. We are regional members and

we represent a large area of communities that are very different.

We have to take a step back and we need to ensure that communities can

still understand to their representatives are, where they can

access them, but we also need to see if there are communities that

have been arbitrarily broken off into other constituents is and how

it will effect them. I think we just need to be more pragmatic

about the whole affair, really. There was some talk this morning

that the boundaries here in the assembly might be changing. The

Wells office say that will be dealt with in due course, but he thing

that should be looked at? It is undoubtedly the case where if

Westminster boundaries are changed, it will be difficult where

constituencies operate on a different level. Boundaries are a

matter that are always under constant review. Whether it is

county level, community level, this is an ongoing process where we need

to ensure that the basis of representation is the same.

terms of the boundary of your constituency, it is enormous at the

moment, isn't it? As a regional member you do expect to have to

travel from Bridgend down to the Gower and that is something that I

welcome to do. We will leave it there. Thank you for all your time.

That is it from the studio. And that is it on the Oriel as well,