19/10/2011 am.pm

Good morning, welcome to am.pm. We have got smacking and jousting for

you this morning. It is the day when Assembly Members will vote on

a change to the law which could see a ban on parents smacking their

children in Wales. And also Prime Minister's Questions for the weekly

joust between David Cameron and Ed Miliband. And I will be looking at

the future of broadcasting here in Wales and it is team photo day for

Joining the track today's programme as usual, two Assembly Members,

Eluned Parrott from the Welsh Liberal Democrats and Nick Ramsay.

I have made reference to an attempt that AMs will make to ban smacking

of children later in the Assembly. Let's get your views on how it will

go. To be honest, I have not made a decision yet. I want to listen to

the arguments put forward because I think this is such a difficult area.

Two considerations, one of which is obviously try to make sure we are

protecting children that I have a concern at the moment, whether it

is this particular mechanism, removing the defence of lawful

chastisement in a prosecution for assault, whether that actually

effectively would ban smacking or whether it would move the decision

whether a smack was a salt to the court, where it could be considered

by the justice system or would removing that defence, would it

moved to the Crown Prosecution Service and the police? Is that

what we want to achieve? It is the legal technicalities and the

consequences that I am concerned about, I must come first. Nick

Ramsey, where do you stand? I think the AMs are going through the same

thoughts that we have been meaning. I think it is fine as it is. I

think the thing is well-meaning and the AMs are looking to protect

children but I think in terms of this mechanism talked about, I

don't think so. I think there is a question whether the Assembly has

the power to do this as well. know that your predecessor David

Davies has written to the Welsh Secretary... You know who he is!

Asking her to refer any decision if a positive decision is given, to

refer it to the Supreme Court because he does not believe the

Assembly has the power. Carwyn Jones believe he does and as Harry

Hill said, how will we resolve this, it is a fight! I think there is a

question here. The same thing with organ donation. The Assembly will

have to deal with this. I think there probably is a question over

whether the Assembly has the power but even if it does not, I think

this mechanism is not the right one. I think this would be a job too far

for a lot of people in Wales. . Your party leader, and a party

colleagues, what are they telling you? I think it is an issue where

it is so personal and so wrapped up in this combination of emotive

arguments and legalistic arguments that it has to come down to an

individual's conscience and that is why I want to not prejudge it. I

want to listen to the arguments and get a better understanding of where

people are coming from on both sides before I make a final

decision. We will be back with our guests before long and in the

meantime, we will find out what else is happening in The Senedd

today with our intrepid reporter. What is happening this afternoon,

the usual questions to ministers and today we have got questions to

the Finance Minister and the business Minister. We have got the

big move of what to have been talking about with our guest, a

smacking Debate. This is confusing a lot of people. The first point we

need to make is nothing will change in relation to the law about

smacking today. This debate is about AMs asking the Welsh

Government to bring forward legislation which might affect

smacking. I will come on to that but if the vote is passed today,

the law will not be changed. But if there is a vote in favour, what

they are asking for is a removal of the events of lawful chastisement,

when somebody is accused of assaulting a child. It appears that

is not quite the same as a ban on smacking although the impact of it

may well be to dissuade people from smacking children and certainly the

AMs behind the vote would like to see an end to smacking of children.

It is a complicated area but nothing substantial will change

today in terms of the law. Following on from that debate, we

have got one on broadcasting. Some have said that is a crisis hit area,

Plaid Cymru have said that and the Conservatives have got a debate

about sporting events. We have had the ashes and the Ryder Cup

recently, the Conservatives don't believe in of is being done to

affect Wales so they want to discuss that as well. We know that

you will have some guests with the later on and we will catch up with

you later on in the programme. You can find out even more of what is

happening in the National Assembly on our website. And from the

Assembly to Westminster where our reporter Tomos Livingstone is for

us this morning. Good morning. I suppose the Liam Fox resignation

still dominates discussions for you this morning, as the report from

the Cabinet Secretary taking heat out of the sea? Not really, to be

honest. -- out of the issue. Already so Gus O'Donnell was

halfway through his report into the relationship that Liam Fox had with

his friend, Adam Werritty. And whether that was appropriate. The

report came out yesterday afternoon, we know that in Sir Gus O'Donnell's

view, Liam Fox did break the ministerial code and we know that

Liam Fox was warned by his own civil servants that it was perhaps

in appropriate that Adam Werritty had access to his ministerial diary.

You might say that he has resigned now, so why bother reading the

report? But there will be changes to the way that the Government

operates in the future with civil servants who have concern that

their ministers may be going off- reservation a little bit. Perhaps

with people who are not official advisers. A report has come out and

the heat has not really gone out of it. I think Labour feel there are

still questions unanswered. It will be very surprising if it doesn't

come up at Prime Minister's Questions. The question is whether

Ed Miliband tries to pin the blame on David Cameron himself or do what

he did last week and allow his backbenchers to get on with the

matter of allowing specific questions to be asked. I will be

stunned if it is not asked, but even if not, Liam Fox is out of the

frying pan, into the fire because he is expected to make a statement

to the Commons later. Yes, Liam for Fox keen to put his set off views

forward. What we expect is after PMQs, Ken Clarke will make estate

on the Justice green paper that he is working on a memorable get a

statement from Sir George Young sitting at the view of the House to

Liam Fox. And then a debate on what George UN has to say for about one

hour, and then at 2:30pm, we will get a personal statement from Liam

Fox where he will try to set the record straight. His view is that

while there may have been a breach of ministerial code, he doesn't

think he has done that much wrong. It would be interesting to see if

there is any hint in that statement as to whether he is planning a

further political comeback. Another big story revolving around the

taxman, some of us will be getting tax rebates and some of us have to

pay money back. You never know your luck, you should watch the doormat

carefully for a brown envelope from HMRC coming your way possibly soon.

6 million people paid too much tax and while an unlucky one million

taxpayers paid too little. Those who paid too much, you'll have to

pay it back through your tax code. Some MPs making a bit of a mischief,

pointing out this is the second year in a row that they have made a

mistake like this. It is all due to a new computer system but the

Government say it is all to do with the rush pushing through a system

under Gordon Brown. Lots of mischief going through the

corridors of Westminster like that. But the present Government's does

not inspire much confidence that the taxman cannot get the sums

right. But also pain back tax to those who have paid too much will

cost the Treasury �2 billion and that is not good for the deficit to

be reduced. Thank you, we will be back with you later on for Prime

Minister's Questions. What is your view on AMs' plans to

ban smacking their children? Send us a tweet. You can write to us at

BBC Wales on the address and a We have discussed already on the

programme smacking today, let go over to mark for more news on the

main business. A man can tell us a lot about this

vote, one of the people behind the motion the South Wales East AM for

Plaid Cymru, Lynsey Whittle. What is this motion and what does he

hope to achieve? We hope that passing a law here in Wales will

prevent children from being smacked and abused. How will it do that? If

the vote is passed this afternoon, all that would have been achieved

is establishing that the Assembly want to see a change in the law,

but not a substantial change today? No, but a first step in a long

journey and I am very proud to play a part in that. I passionately

believe we should not be smacking children. But the law is so archaic

now, that a man could smack a wife, his children and his servants under

all that that was not long ago, but he cannot smack his servant and

wife but he can smack his children, that is not right. Could this vote

is passed today, the Assembly will ask the law to be brought forward

on lawful chastisement. That is not the same as a smacking ban, is it?

When there is a slap to a child -- when does a slap stop? Willett

detach a writer? When it perforate an eardrum? When it dislocate a jaw,

you don't know. And when does the slap become a fist? The chain you

have itemised is a change to a particular legal defence and that

does not emerge and then if the law was changed, they would not be able

to plead lawful chastisement, that is not the same as saying you

cannot smack under any circumstances? If you do not start

here, where do you start and we have to start somewhere. If we do

this today, it gets across a sign that smacking your child is not

right. Years ago, it would be about seatbelts, some people would say

the same about smoking in public buildings but look where we are now.

What is clear is you are looking for a change in criminal law, and

you know that David Davies has come up this morning as at the Assembly

has not got the power to deliver those changes, what is your view on

that position? This is the Assembly for Wales that now has far more

law-making powers. I look forward to all law-making powers and the

Westminster government is irrelevant. Mr Davies's government

wants to reduce the number of Members of Parliament to the 30 and

I look forward to the day when we decide everything in Wales. What

about the view that is not for politicians to tell the majority of

loving parents had to discipline children? There are many loving

parents are there but many loving parents do things that anger and

temper and you should not allow that. It is for politicians to

protect children, saving the lives We will watch the debate with

interest this afternoon. Back to you now.

Children under the age of 16 could be stopped from having piercings

without their parents' permission. Yesterday the Welsh government

announced that they will look at whether there should be a legal age

of consent for piercings. Ministers say that some piercings could

become infected. Others are concerned that children will do it

themselves. His our health correspondent.

It's an increasingly popular fashion statement. Some piercing

sounds like this one in Swansea impose their own age restrictions,

but in England, Wales and Northern Ireland, there is no law to say how

old you have to be before you can have your ears or other body parts

kissed. We do naval piercings from the age of 13 as long as there is

parental consent. The chances of potential migration of that

piercing, the movement through the skin, is going to be higher than

say on a 20-year-old. Even though it is only seven or eight years'

difference. Research suggests that 25% of those who have a cosmetic

piercing, other than through the ear, experience some kind of

complication. Three years ago, a petition was laid to the Assembly

calling for under 16s to require parents' permission for other

piercings plants ear-piercing. thought I would love to see what

regulations there were, and was shocked to find that it was not

regulated at all. Anybody could pierce your child, be it at nine,

10 or 11 years old, and there was nothing as a parent that you can do.

Scotland has already introduced a law that parents have to be with

under 16s to get a piercing. This Assembly to have the power to

legislate, and the Welsh government intends to use it. I would favour

setting the age at 16. In the main, young people at 16 are able to

intelligently identify and consider the short and long term it risks

and implications of having a cosmetic piercing. Legislating in

this way make lead to young people taking matters into their own hands,

and kissing themselves in an unsafe or unhygienic way -- piercings. I

wonder what safeguards the Minister intends to bring forward in terms

of legislation in order to combat that. In a Bangor, these 14-year-

olds agreed that a new law should be introduced. If you are over the

age of 16 then you should be able to make the decision yourself.

would not go on my own to have a piercing, just in case something

went wrong. There are infections and it is quite painful to get them

done. And they cost a lot of money. Some say it would be difficult to

police. They will all get to have their say as the Government

consults between now and the end of January.

We will do our own bit of consultation now with our guests.

Nick Ramsay, there is a theme developing here, isn't there? Some

might say a nanny state. What do you think about plans to bring in a

minimum age for piercing? actually think this is a good idea.

I was not aware to start with what the Government were proposing until

the statement was made yesterday, and I think the idea of a minimum

age is good. I think 16 is reasonable. There are laws at the

moment, but the issue is that age and about parental consent, and

most people would say it is sensible to get permission.

Something probably does need to be done. But it does need to be

policed, and we have to make sure that we don't create a whole

culture and of children trying to do it themselves because they have

not got permission. That needs to be addressed. How widespread is

that practice? A couple of Assembly Members referred to it yesterday,

and apparently there are home appears in kits available on the

internet. People have been kissing their own -- piercing at their own

ears since I was a child, probably. I remember doing it to school

friends of mine. What we are not talking about is a fairly

straightforward procedure like a pierced ear. We are looking at

other procedures like piercing an eyebrow or tongue or a navel. It is

much more complicated. I do worry that there are tickets available

that make that seem like a reasonable possibility - tickets

available. We have to look widely at how we would legislate for this,

how we would make sure that legislation is effective in

preventing people from taking things into their own hands as well.

Well, the consultation is under way. That is it on a piercing for the

moment. Still to come on am.pm: we will go live to the House of

Commons for Prime Minister's Questions at midday.

Time to go back to Mark in the Oriel now where he is going global,

apparently. Yes, we are going to talk about protests. We have been

to extraordinary protests around the world, starting in America. We

have now got them at St Paul's Cathedral in London. Denis Campbell,

let's start where it started, from our perspective, occupying Wall

Street because they are disaffected with the capitalist system? The

greed of bankers? What are they disaffected with? Probably all of

the above. If you look at the way this has organically grown, this

started four weeks ago as a bunch of young people predominantly who

were most affected by the student loan debt in the United States. It

has now blossomed because the mainstream media has come around,

and this was largely due to some of the same things we saw during the

Arab Spring, with police over- reacting to the people that were

there on the ground grating what we in the media call a second day

story. So the momentum began to build. When the police arrested

those too young people and then 700 people on the Brooklyn Bridge,

suddenly this became a major issue. They are disaffected with the way

the financial industry has been allowed to basically destroyed the

economy, take most of the wealth out of it, and there has been

absolutely no one called to account. No one has been arrested, no one

has been charged. They are being asked to bail out the financial

institutions to the tune of $700 billion. Now those institutions

will not release new loans for businesses. We have seen that in

the UK, where if you own a small business you find yourself

constantly being pressured and threatened with rising rates and

cuts and services. People are basically saying that we are the

99%, not the 1%. That has really captured -- caught on. It is almost

a Republican tea-party slogan in its simplicity. In some respects,

the right wing is upset that they did not commit themselves and try

to take it for themselves. The tea party came into prominence with the

republican movement. Yes, that is quite right wing. Yes, but they

said don't give us death penalties, don't take away our health care.

What intrigues me from outside America is that we have a

perception that belief in capitalisation, belief in money is

almost an American religion. How is is playing out in the Midwest, for

example? What do they make of these young people? Are they threatened

by them? I don't think that the people in general are threatened.

The astonishing thing is that the Poles I have seen is that upwards

of 70% of the general US public support the ideals once they

understand them. If you can get past the idea that you have got a

bunch of people essentially living in a public square, this movement

has now taken over 700 cities in the United States. There are

movements everywhere. And beyond the United States, we have got them

in London outside St Paul's Cathedral. I saw some of the films

coming from there the other day, and that is a lot of feathers on

what people are against, but not so much on what the way forward is --

a lot of emphasis. Yes, people are starting to come to the forefront

and say, "if you really want to put an agenda, you have to work within

the system". That is the danger. You are seeing a wedge being driven

between the two sides. We saw this in Egypt. We saw the older

population trying very hard to drive a wedge between the young

students, particularly as the Arab Spring, the 18 days of the Egyptian

Revolution, went further and further. It almost felt completely

apart during that third week. Then we saw how it actually ended. They

are in that little bit of a lull now, almost in week five. Have they

got international corporation? Are all these cities talking to each

other? Is there any threat of revolutionary movements in some

countries? There is indeed. As a matter of fact, I just saw

something this morning about the Philippines will stop I have no

idea what it is. The problem is that there are people that will try

to take this message for themselves. There is always going to be that

threat. The biggest issue is going to be keeping it simple and making

sure that people don't go over the boundaries of the non-violent

protest. It is fascinating, we don't know where it will go from

here. Thank you for joining us. Before we go off to Westminster for

Prime Minister's Questions, a quick chat with our guests about what we

think may come up. Liam Fox was mentioned earlier on. That is

inevitable, isn't it? I think so. I feel sad about the whole situation

about Liam Fox. I understand he was to make a statement later.

Ultimately the right decision was made. The ministerial code had been

broken, but it is very sad. He was, as David Cameron said, very good in

that job. He had a lot of respect within the Defence Department, and

it is sad this has happened. Some people are surprised that some of

your party colleagues are still in the capital sum of the things they

have done. And yet Liam Fox has resigned for what he has done. Do

you think his resignation has may be created an imbalance? I don't

think so. It is about making sure that the people who are empowered

with the executive powers to take a portfolio forward are capable,

confident and able. In the case of Liam Fox, you have to say that one

of the critical things for a defence minister has got to be

judgment and discretion. minister, surely? Particularly a

minister of defence, there you are looking day in day out at issues of

national security. I am sorry, but an error of judgment of these kind

of magnitude, and a lack of discretion of that kind of

magnitude, made his position completely untenable. Nick, what do

you think about this suggestion within the Conservative

backbenchers in Westminster that there is now an imbalance within

the Cabinet on the right of the Tory party? I don't really see that.

I think it is about having the best people in the best positions, and I

think... But some MPs don't, do they? No, but I disagree with some

MPs. Ultimately, David Cameron is the prime minister, he chairs the

Cabinet, and he and Nick Clegg are taking the policies in a direction

which they want. All the Cabinet members have bought into that

agenda, so whether they are on the right, as Liam Fox is, or further

to the left like Ken Clarke, I think there is a common agenda. I

do agree that Liam Fox has done the right thing. Mistakes were made. It

is now about making sure that this critical point, when defence cuts

are so important and Liam Fox was actually very able in terms of

dealing with that budget, that maximum support is given to his

successor to make sure of that he can bring the cuts forward in a way

that does not harm the defence of the country. Are you happy that a

line has been drawn under this, because obviously Ed Miliband is

going to try to see some capital from it today. That is the nations

of Prime Minister's Questions, isn't it? Let's see how much

capital we can gain on a political level. To be honest, on a personal

level, I do feel for Liam Fox because today is going to be the

most difficult day of his life. To have to face the Commons, to admit

that level of mistake, and... has admitted it, he said last week

he had made mistakes. Yes, but unfortunate that has been some kind

of Greek on the level of mistake he was prepared to admit. I think that

is going to give him problems today because people are now going to

continue to press him for answers on further issues, I fear. On a

personal level, I feel sorry for him for that because it is going to

be difficult because of the decision he took not to be

absolutely crystal clear in the first to place. -- in the first

place. That is going to prevent him from drawing a line under it.

else do you expect to come up today? I would expect to see the

Dale Farm situation come up today because obviously this is something

that is very pressing, and something that I would like to see

discussed. And the tax issue. terms of the taxes, it is difficult

for Ed Miliband. Some people will be getting more money back, and

some will have to pay some back. Does he go on the fact that he

considers the Treasury has made a mess of this, or does he welcome

the fact that people are going to get more money in their pockets?

think he would be foolish not to actually support those people who

will get some money back, because clearly people, particularly at

this time when people are cutting back, will appreciate that. It is

interesting to see how this has happened. Once again we hear about

a computer fault. It does seem that across all manner of issues,

computer faults are cropping up, so maybe he will jump on that and

asked what safeguards are in place to make sure this does not happen

again. As I mentioned earlier, in terms of whether I get a rebate or

-- rebate or not, I'm sure computer welfare reforms which will be

important for Northern Ireland's future prosperity. We must hear Mr

Jeffrey Donaldson. Will the Minister join with me in welcoming

the decision by the Northern Ireland Executive to cut tuition

fees at just over �3,000 and the boost this provides to young people

in Northern Ireland to seek to graduate from university. These

matters, of course, are probably matters for the executive. I will

point out that that money will have to be found from within the

existing budget of the executive. Questions to the Prime Minister, Mr

Stephen Hepburn. Labour MP from I'm sure the whole House will wish

to join me in the memory of Rifleman Vijay Rai from 2nd

Battalion The Royal Gurkha Rifles he was a talented and dedicated

soldier and our deepest sympathies should be with his family and

friends. He was proud to be a Gurkha and at times like these, we

especially remember the deep debt of gratitude that we are all those

brave soldiers. This morning I had meetings with ministerial

colleagues and others and I shall have further such meetings later

today. Can I commend and share the views of the Prime Minister

concerning our brave Nick military personnel. Is the Prime Minister

aware that we are common to -- married in the 75th anniversary of

the Jarrow march? And isn't it wrong that even today, people in

this country live in fear of the dole and unemployment? The

Government have been in one year and already we are back to the 19

eighties. Can I ask the Prime Minister this simple question - is

he going to be supporting workers or sacrificing them? I believe we

need to be supporting people and helping them back into work. We

should commemorate the Jarrow march as he says and I notice it has been

commemorated this year. We have a challenge across the country as we

see numbers employed in the public sector inevitably go down and that

will be happening, whoever was standing here. We have got to make

sure there are more jobs in the private sector. And in the north-

east what we do see, which is worth well, is a Nissan creating 200 new

jobs, Hitachi up to 500 new jobs, and BT are creating an extra 280

jobs in South Shields. There are 500,000 more private sector jobs

compared at the time of the last election but I recognise we need to

do more on that is what they were programme is about. Can I

congratulate my right honourable With his joint declaration on the

Canadian Prime Minister on renewable energy. Obviously we now

need to make sure we have growth in our economy. May I ask as to what

he thinks universities such as Plymouth, which have a very good

reputation on green research, can do to help make sure we...

commend my friend for his question because there are a number of

universes across the country, but our leaders in marine renewable

energy and yesterday the climate change secretary and as we will be

going ahead with the renewable obligation certificates, making

sure we boost these vital industry and attract jobs to this country.

Mr Ed Miliband. Can I join the Prime Minister in paying tribute to

Rifleman Vijay Rai from 2nd Battalion The Royal Gurkha Rifles.

In joining the Army, he was following a proud family tradition.

He showed the utmost courage and bravery and is in deepest

condolences are with his family and friends. The revelations over the

last week about what has been going on in the most sensitive department

at the heart of the Prime Minister's government and deeply

worrying. The former Defence Secretary had an unofficial adviser

with access to top officials in the military and foreign governments.

Yet the Prime Minister said he knew nothing about these goings on for

18 months. How did he allow this to happen? First, I agree with the

right honourable gentleman that this is an important and serious

issue and that is why I set up a full and proper inquiry by the

Cabinet Secretary and he has produced that report and the report

has been published in full and I do think it is worth recognising that

in this case, the Secretary of State for Defence recognised that

he had made a mistake, acknowledged that he broke the ministerial code

and resigned. That is not have been that has happened a lot than the

last 13 years. A piece of advice to the Prime Minister, this week of

all weeks, show a bit of humility. David Cameron not impressed with

that. And the truth is that we still do not know the full facts

about this case. About the money trail, about who exactly in the

money met Adam Werritty and it is becoming clear that there are a

network of individuals the who funded him, some with close links

to the Conservative Party and others in the Cabinet. Given that

he says he knows nothing about the arrangements of the former Defence

Secretary, can he now give this House a categorical guarantee that

over the past 18 months, no other government Minister has been

engaging in similar activities? think we should have a bit of

humility from the people who gave us cabs for hire, passports for

flavour, mortgages formate so... Dodgy dossiers, smearing opponents,

good days to Barry bad news. These are the questions that he was meant

to at last week. If you will jump on a bandwagon, make sure it is

still moving. Mr Speaker, no answered the question that we want

answering. This is a Prime Minister and we see a pattern of activity

with him, he does not ask the tough questions of those around him and

when anything goes wrong, it is nothing to do with him. What did he

say in the ministerial code he published? He said "it is not

enough to simply make a difference, we must be different". And in the

last three months we have seen his defence secretary resign in

disgrace and his spin doctor arrested. Is that what he meant by

being different? COMMENTATOR: A reference to Andy

Coulson. The Minister in question Would my right honourable friend

agreed that at a time... Order, I want to hear Mr Brazier. Would my

right honourable friend agree that at a time when the Governor of the

Bank of England has said we are facing a possibly unprecedented

economic crisis, it is a good thing that this country is still

committed to getting our debt under control and to retaining

credibility in the financial markets. I think my honourable

friend makes an important point and I think people should listen to

what the Governor of the Bank of England said yesterday when he said

that with a credible plan, we were on track but the problems in the

euro area and the marked slowing of the economy in the world have made

the period of stability in the world will take longer than planned.

If we listen to the party opposite, they added �23 billion to the

deficit this year, it would be free kick economics -- they would have

added. The Prime Minister has acknowledged that there was

collusion in the murder of Pat Finucane, does he accept that in

order to get to the bottom of that, we have to get to the top of that?

And does he recognise that many of us lack confidence that a desk

reviewed by even an eminent lawyer is going to do that and will he

reflect further on the grave misgivings given by the victim's

family and the Irish Government? course I understand the scepticism

of the honourable gentleman and there was great scepticism by many

at the time of the Saville Inquiry. What matters most is the intent of

the British Government in uncovering what happened, being

frank about it, apologising about it and acknowledging it. You don't

need an open inquiry to that. Said to those who are sceptical, they

will go on, I just ask them to have an open mind and I believe we can

deal with this properly. Will the Prime Minister join me in

congratulating one council in that first building more and more houses

on Brownfield site and that the first draft of the new national

policy housing framework can... COMMENTATOR: Grant Shapps, the

Housing Minister. The letter reassure him on planning policy

because we are not making changes to green belt or other protections

and I am sure he can discuss that with the a planning Minister. I can

its light all local councils that built houses and I am sure he will

welcome the announcement that have been made that we have worked

closely on with the Deputy Prime Minister, to build more social

housing so we end the scandal of overcrowded housing. Can I thank

you and put on record my gratitude to the Home Secretary on all sides

of the House for their support for the Hillsborough families for the

days of debate. Will the Prime Minister acknowledged that

governments have made mistakes, that 22 years is 22 years too long

to fight for the truth and that if it is proven, that there was an

orchestrated cover-up, despite two decade passing, Justice Judge still

prevail and those held responsible for the Hillsborough disaster

should be brought to book? Let me say to the honourable gentleman

that last week, I promised him that the time for the debate would be

properly protected and the House would have a proper time to debated

which it did. This week I can tell him that we are going to open up

those papers and publish them as we promised so people can see what was

happening. I would say that it is important to remember that the

Taylor inquiry was a proper and the investigation, it was not an

inquiry into just what happened, it led to huge changes in what we do

to manage football. It was a national tragedy and I am hugely

sympathetic to the families of the victims and I'm sure that all the

institutions involved have regrets. The Prime Minister has given his

backing to national heroes Day this Friday, 21st October. Will he

joined in commending the hundreds of schools taking part, taking

inspiration on all models and raising money for Help For Heroes.

I am very pleased to do that. I am a huge fan of the charity, it has

been a remarkable story of how it has grown. I have seen for myself

the extraordinary events they have made in Headley Court where they

have built this extraordinary swimming pool used by so many

people recovering from their injuries. I certainly am pleased to

support that. Ed Miliband. Speaker, last week we heard

unemployment was at its highest level since the last Conservative

Government. This week we heard the retail price inflation at its

highest level since the last Conservative Government. Does the

Prime Minister still think his plan is working? And to put him right,

CPI, the measure of inflation we all now recognise, the last time

CPI was as high as this was in 2008 when he was in government. But is

an important point. Of course, inflation is too high. The

principal reasons are world food prices, will fuel prices, the

depreciation of sterling and yes, there was an effect on the increase

in VAT just as there was increased when he increased VAT at the

beginning of 2010. But the reason for increasing it is to get on top

of the record deficit the last Government left. As always, the

Prime Minister says it is like that in the rest of the world. We have

got the highest inflation of any other European Union country apart

from Estonia, because of the decisions he made including the

decision he made on VAT. Week-in, week-out, the evidence mounts that

his plan is not working and he refuses to change course. Last week

we heard that his flagship national insurance scheme have not worked.

Let me ask him about his flagship we shall Growth Fund which he

launched 16 months ago. Can he tell us how many business have had cash

paid out under the scheme. Let me put him right on this issue... It

is important. One of the reasons why Britain has such a difficult

situation with inflation is we were the country with the biggest boom

and the biggest bus. He cannot hide from that -- biggest bust. It will

be redistributing billions of pounds of my right across the

country and it is worthwhile but he should be supporting. I don't think

he knows the answer, Mr Speaker. Here certainly release a lot of

press releases, 22. But how many businesses have been helped in the

past 16 months? Two. Two businesses in 16 months. And how many

businesses have gone bankrupt in that time? 16,000. What greater

example could there be of the way this Government's plan is not

working. 18 months of this economic experiment and what has he got to

show for it? More people losing their jobs, more businesses going

bust and inflation going through the roof and all we have got is a

Prime Minister who is hopelessly Because all he wants to do is talk

down the economy. He won't mention the fact there are 300,000 new

businesses. There are 500,000 people who have got jobs he did not

have them at the time of the election. But the big question for

the Right Honourable Gentleman is, if he doesn't like our plan, where

is his plan? We now know that his plan to deal with our debts is...

Order, order! The Prime Minister answer must be heard. His plan is

to and �23 billion to Britain's deficit this year, and almost �100

billion to our deficit by the end of the parliament. There is not one

single country in Europe that would have such a crazy plan. Labour

front bench asking the Prime Minister to calm down! Order,

order! We are most grateful to the Shadow Chancellor for his advice,

but I would like to ask the House as a whole to calm down, otherwise

it will be in the medical curriculum! The problem is, it was

his advice that got us into this mess in the first place. When is he

going to learn, there is not a single country in Europe that

things you deal with your death by adding to your debt. That's why no

one listened to him here, or in Europe. Yesterday a report was

published in to the serious failings by Nottinghamshire police

to protect a young woman who went on to be murdered by her violent

partner. Would the Prime Minister agree with me that it is imperative

that all police forces have the practices, the policies, and the

training to protect women from violent men? I absolutely agree

with my Honourable Friend. The point she makes is important

because some police forces have made -- made a huge step forward in

how we deal with domestic violence, but not all. We need to recognise

that right across the country. Association of college principals

has just announced the largest fall in college enrolments since 1999,

and cite the abolition of EMA as a major factor. It is a tragedy of

the Government's owner making and it lies directly at the door of the

Secretary for Education. What is the Government going to do to make

this right? I think she will find that some enrolments have actually

gone up, and if you look at our replacement for EMA, it is a well

funded scheme that will be much better targeted on those people in

need. The people who really need the extra money will get more than

under EMA. We are facing high fuel bills, and there is a vested

interest by the six big fuel companies not to allow competition

into the market. Could I ask the Prime Minister what he is doing to

bring more competition and get prices down? One of the things that

we are doing is insisting that the Big Six have to make more of their

energy available into a pooling arrangement so that new businesses

can come into this industry. The reason we have to do this is the

last government abolished the polling arrangements and created

the situation with the Big Six, and we don't need to ask who the energy

secretary was during that government, we are looking at him!

But was Ed Miliband, of course. Given the importance of carbon

capture and storage, both as a way of reducing carbon emissions, and

also as an exportable economy -- commodity, will Pallister put his

words into action and ensure that the project goes ahead? -- will be

Prime Minister step in? The funding we set aside is still there and

will be made available. Clearly, the scheme is not working in the

way that they intended, but the money from the Government for this

vital technology is there. The huge financial risk provoked by a

constant structural reorganisation, as in the NHS, would not be better

if politicians learnt to muddle -- marriage more and medal less, even

if governments find the matter easier and more interesting?

Honourable Friend makes an important point. Let me pay tribute

to the Right Honourable Gentleman, the Member for Horsham, who does

this very patient work at the heart of government and does not always

get recognised for it. Have reduced Government Management saving

substantial amounts of money. We have spent �400 million less on

marketing and advertising. That is an 80% reduction. These are serious

changes to cut the cost of central government and make sure we provide

good value for money. None of these things were done under the last

government. Before the election, the Prime Minister claimed that

anyone caught carrying a knife should expect to go to prison. As

he read a book Kinsella's article in today's some revealing that all

-- 40% of knife crime is carried out by under 18s. Why witty deliver

on his promise and put them in jail? We are doing something that

the Government previously failed to do, which is to create a mandatory

sentence for adults who are caught with knives to make sure that

happens. The Prime Minister will be aware that the British people are

crying out for a referendum on the future of Europe. Will he please

make history and follow the example of great prime ministers like

Winston Churchill and Margaret Thatcher and give the British

people the chance to vote on our future with the European Union?

completely understand and share the frustration that many have about

the way the European Union goes about its business, about the costs,

about the bureaucracy. But I have to say, the key focus here is to

get on top of the EU budget, keep Britain out of the bail-out schemes,

make sure that the single market is working. Of course, we are

committed as a Conservative Party, to the return of powers from

lessons deux from Brussels. We are also committed as a government that

if power passes from Westminster to Brussels, there would have to be a

referendum. That promise is good for the whole of this Parliament

and beyond. But I don't support holding a referendum come what may,

that is not our policy, and I will not be supporting that nation.

armed forces are courageous as they serve in Afghanistan. Last October,

one of my constituency died in Helmand province. He was one of

many who do -- paid the highest price to defend freedom. His

commanding officer said, tap -- ", today there is a gap in our ranks

we show ordinary man can fell". Can the Prime Minister ensure that a

review is carried out into the way the Ministry of Defence prepares

its honours list so that families will see that the entire nation

recognises the sacrifice and the selflessness of these brave men and

women? I will certainly look carefully at what the Honourable

Gentleman says and perhaps arrange a meeting with him and the Minister

for our veterans in these affairs, the Right Honourable Member. I

think that would be a good thing to do. I have the highest possible

regard for the professionalism and courage and dedication of our

forces. We paid a high price in Afghanistan and in Iraq for what we

have had to do there, and I think the whole country actually

recognises that and feels that very strongly, and are looking for new

ways to recognise what our armed forces do. That is why there is

such strong support for help for heroes and for homecoming berates,

for lists of honours, for the military government and all of

those things. We should go on looking at what more we can do to

recognise their service and sacrifice. Statements about eight

European directive that applies to insulin dependent diabetics seize

up to one million such people fearing for their driving licence.

Isn't THAT it is the Department of Transport, and how it interprets

this directive, that will determine whether or not someone loses their

licence? Will the Prime Minister make the position clear? I quite

understand my Honourable Friend's concern, and it is shared by many

insulin treated diabetics right across the country who want to be

able to go on a driving as freely as they have done in the past. I

can reassure my Honourable Friend that relatively few insulin treated

diabetics will lose their licence as a result of this directive, and

the DVLA is going back to the European Commission to check his

understanding and interpretation of the minimum standards of this

directive, as we all know, on all sides of the house, on too many

occasions departments gold plate directors, and bishops or -- they

should stop this. The airports authorities to sell at an airport.

Does the Prime Minister agree that it is important for the Scottish

economy that we have as many direct international routes and services

as possible. Why then does he not listen to the views of the four

major airports and transport Scotland to wish to see the

devolution of air passenger duty? We will listen Catholic to these

arguments. The most important thing is that investment goes into the

infrastructure of our airports. I know that first hand, Edinburgh

Airport has superb facilities. In terms of air passenger duty, we

will continue to listen to those arguments. It does the Prime us to

agree with me that performing private schools should not only

support state schools on an ad hoc basis, but we should go further and

encourage them to federate them. This is, I think, a cross-party

initiative. I pay tribute to Lord Adonis, who has made some extremely

use of points on this issue. There is an opportunity for independent

schools are to sponsor academies in the state sector. I think we can

see them -- the breaking down of barriers between independent and

state education. I hope it will have all party support. Mr Speaker,

a change in the national targets regime and cuts have led to the

emergency services in greater Manchester been in disarray. A

stroke victim had to wait for an hour for an ambulance. The response

time of the fire service has doubled in parts of Greater

Manchester, and the police switchboard is in meltdown. What

are reassurances can the Prime Minister give to the house that

there won't be a tragic death because of this failure of the

service? He I will that Catholic out what the Honourable Gentleman

says. What I would say about health funding specifically is that we are

carrying out the �20 billion efficiency savings suggested by the

now shadow health secretary, but the difference between his party's

points and our policy is that we are putting all of those savings

back into the NHS. The official Labour position is that increasing

spending on the NHS -- on the health service is irresponsible.

Well, we think it is irresponsible not to increase spending.

engineering firm in my constituency have been in receipt of a regional

growth fund investment that will help to create 80 new jobs. Does

the Prime Minister agree with made that, despite the doom mongering

opposite, there are success stories out there, and with that in mind,

will he consider coming to open the new innovation and enterprise

centre at Huddersfield University in the spring? What a delightful

invitation, and can I thank my Honourable Gentleman. I want to

hear about the Primus of's travel plans to Huddersfield. I look

forward to some travel plans to Huddersfield. The leader of the

opposition's first lot of questions and the second lot were probably

wrong. The answer the Prime Minister gave just is not good

enough. The fact is, despite all his promises, fewer people caught

carrying knives are going to prison under this Government than the last.

Will he apologised to date to the bereaved families for breaking the

promises he made for taking a tougher approach. I am full and

admiration for this campaign. It is incredibly brave when you have lost

a loss -- suffered a loss like that in your own family, when you

campaigner for a change in the law, change in the way police behave,

change in the way young people behave. She is a good individual

with a great campaign. What we are doing under this Government, which

the last government did not do, is have a mandatory sentence for knife

crime, and that will be introduced Well my friends be recognising

the... I was suddenly dry my honourable friend in that. This is

an issue in which you take a close personal interest in this, Mr

Speaker. Anybody who has brought it disabled children knows the vital

work of Speech and Language therapists, that there are often

not enough of them to provide vital services. Getting them through the

services can be tough so I certainly agree with what he says.

The Prime Minister knows that we know officials from other

governments were given the impression that the former defence

secretary's unofficial adviser represented the UK government's.

How many people in total were misled and will who provide a list?

Will be honourable gentleman should do is read the report by the

Cabinet secretary and he will find all the details in there that he

needs -- what the honourable gentleman should do. It comes from

the party opposite when we know that the former defence secretary

is working for a helicopter company, the former Home Secretary is

working for a security firm, and even the former leader, in the last

few months, he has cut �120,000 for speeches to a Swiss bank, visa and

A Conservative MP for Wrekin. miles hear Mr Pritchard. Returning

to Europe, does the Prime Minister accept that moves towards fiscal

union within the eurozone will ultimately on -- ultimately

undermine the single market? While we believe that the logic of a

single currency drives the eurozone towards greater fiscal integration,

this does pose particular threats and risks to those of us who want a

single market to work properly. At the European Council this week, it

is important to argue for safeguards to make sure that the

single market remains robust and properly protected. That is what we

must do in the short term. Of course, it may be that in the

longer term, there will be moves towards further treaties and at

that stage there may be opportunities to bring further

powers back to Britain and there may be opportunities for a

referendum but not, I believe, to hold a referendum willy-nilly in

this Parliament when we have so much to do to get Europe to sort

its problems out. Does the Staffordshire richer -- statutory

register of lobbyists, will the promise to ensure that think-tanks,

whose propaganda is aimed to manipulate both the public and

ministers for their own ends, should be required to reveal Pooh

funds them. -- to reveal who funds them. I think it needs to be put in

place, the register and needs to include think tanks and other

organisations as well as one of the biggest lobbies of all, the lobby

that owns the party opposite, lock, stock and trade union barrel, the

trade unions. The two Prime Minister's Questions over for

another week. Plenty of jousting between the Leader of the

Opposition, and the Prime pence -- Prime Minister and potential

shopper waters over a referendum over Europe. We discussed Liam Fox

before and it came up. How would you judge who had the best of those

exchanges? Depressingly, I don't think either side did. I don't

think Ed Miliband was particularly incisive asking his questions and I

really don't think that Cameron engaged with it. I don't think by

saying that he was too late is a particularly grown-up response to a

serious issue. I think that is a score draw. That was the Prime

Minister's attempt to draw a line under it and tell Ed Miliband that

he is too late, Liam Fox has resigned. I think that was the

problem with that, he wanted him to say that he should resign and he

already had and that is I think what David Cameron was trying to

save. On the border point, Ed Miliband's body language was

strange because he looked almost defeated at certain points, Mikey

wasn't engaging. That was a great opportunity and the Government has

got into a pickle on this issue. One shot came back to David Cameron

when he was quite dismissive of Ed Miliband and Ed Miliband looked a

bit winded by the response. Every week I have the pleasure of sitting

here and watching Prime Minister's Questions and there has always a

battle about the economy. It never seems to get anywhere. More of the

same today? Yes, inevitable that while we are in such difficult

Financial Times up the economy will take centre stage. It is correct

but what I don't see coming from the Labour benches at the moment is

any clear idea that they know what would be the detail of their second

plan. They say that ought to be won but let's see it. -- they say there

ought to be a plan. This is something where we need sensible

debate. Some kind of vision or leadership. If there is an

alternative, let hear it. If not, shut up or put up. I last, nobly

from the Labour Party here. -- nobody from the Labour Party. One

representative said they can call their plan plan APlus. That so us

like a vitamin. -- that sounds like a vitamin! The Labour Party say

they do have an alternative. I do not see a cohesive alternative plan.

That is what the point is. We have lots of different directions from

the Labour benches with no sense that there is a strategic thought

behind it, no sense that there is real direction and leadership and

mutters the problem. He is driven by Ed Balls but perhaps Ed Balls

does not command the same respect from his own side that is necessary

in order to be a spokesperson for all of them. It is quite clear that

he is not a spokesperson for the whole of his party and it is a real

problem in terms of leadership. thought that he would be more

incisive but we fought back on this. There is no plan as Eluned said

there. People will look at Cameron they are doing what has to be done

with no alternative inside. The and how much will we have to deal with

this bickering? Will we take it back to who repealed the Corn Laws?

We need to push this forwards. This time next week we will be

talking about the same things, I suppose! Time to go back to mark

where he is looking into the future will of broadcasting.

It is correct, the media is on AMs' minds. We are joined by Ken skates

from Labour and Plaid Cymru's spokesperson on the issue. I want

to ask you what are the major problems facing the media at the

moment? All sorts of problems. You have got to split them into various

media. Broadcast has a crisis in the uncertainty regarding job cuts

and then print media where a crisis of role and identity. And what we

want to do is look at ideas. We already know the problems and what

we want now is solutions. There must be crucial dialogue. Gethin

Jenkins -- Gethin Jenkins, we know that 100 posts are said to go at

bbc Wales, is the media on a downward trend in Wales? In terms

of national media, we should be very concerned, especially with

regard to the democratic deficit. If this programme disappears from

our screens, hardly know the Assembly will be covered? These

things we need to be discussing his this. The creative industries panel

need to look at this, how the creative sector can think of need,

innovative ideas, social enterprise to help enterprise start up

businesses to think of solutions in what is a very difficult time for

Wales. The into this mix comes the UK Government's Communications Bill.

One key strand is this idea of localism, local TV energising local

communities and local businesses. Is that a good idea? I think there

should be a certain date of scepticism about this. Jeremy Hunt

will talk about Alabama and Birmingham. It has quarter of

Alabama population. We have got less than 3 million people in Wales.

I am doubtful but this idea could survive outside Cardiff. Where it

could potentially operate is where newspapers work together on a

collaborative agenda but you would have to relax cross-media ownership

rules by doing that and make sure that conglomerates could not form.

Bethan, and a part of that bill is that there will not be any Welsh

representative envisaged by Ofgem, the regulator. There is that a

concern of Plaid Cymru? We believe that we should be devolving

broadcasting and obviously the things that come with that

regulation and we should devolve that area if we are not being

represented on that panel. With regard to local TV, it is very

disappointing to see the money is being taken from the licence fee to

pay for this local TV. We see our national BBC and ITV authorities

cuts happening and we need to be focusing on those priorities in

some of diverting it to local television. We have caught the

storm, two minutes ago it was fine! Another issue that you are

concerned about is the funding for S 4 C, coming from the same pot as

licence fee payers. In a time of public sector cuts, does that not

make sense? For we need to make sure that it can be creative and

flexible given these stark funding cuts and make sure that we have

full independence for S 4 C and they don't think that is happening

so I will be pushing that in the debate to ensure that it remains

independent. Jumping around the issue because so much to discuss,

not just about content and funding, equipping ourselves for the digital

future and is that a real problem? Yes, we must be able to compete in

the world. You have got to make sure that we have the

infrastructure in place that enables services to compete with

any other country. We will await the debate with interest. Apologies

to both to being soaking wet, it was not the plan!

Whooping a storm up outside the Assembly. We have got two concerned

guests on the sofa because they are heading out to the front of The

Senedd for an Assembly Members photograph. Take your coat and so

Western's! -- and your wet weather coats. Nick Ramsay, concerns raised

there, do you share those? Yes, we show those a lot about how we

deliver the services that need to be. Bath and mentioned -- Bethan

mentioned the coverage of this place. If nobody is watching and

nobody is engaging with our a activity in the Chamber, we have

got a problem. It is also important to the idea of democracy that

people are able to see what goes on in this political institutions,

understand that, get some decent critical analysis of it to help

them understand the political processes. If you are going to cut

back on the independence of the press, cut back on the amount of

coverage there is of the political system in Wales, you will cut back

on the coverage of people's understanding of things in Wales

and that is my issue. Looking at the written press, Ken skates, we

used to work for the same company in North Wales and the newspapers I

worked on were a very handy tool for politicians because you could

send stuff in, get in the paper, get seen. If newspapers are

disappearing, that is bad news for you guys, isn't it? Of local

newspapers disappear it is bad news for everybody because it is a

really effective tool for keeping communities together and part of

but is by looking at elected members, whether they be

councillors because the local press are almost the only place for local

councillors to be held to account. That is an important thing to bear

in mind. Not just about the politics but the rest of the

committee. What is going on in local schools, local community

events, community businesses. That is want of... You rely heavily on

the local press and people are not always aware of that. It is

difficult to who imagine how I could do my job in my constituency

without the local press. What is the approach of people in your

constituencies? How do they get their news? Do they talk about the

Yes, at the local papers, it is like you hear the old adage that

Wales is a big village. If you go to my area, it is through the local

papers that that very local focus happens. It does not happen through

broadcasters. They do their best, but in a way they can't do that. I

honestly can't see how I do my job, as I do it, and get that coverage

in the constituency without the local press. And yet we all know

that newspaper sales have fallen. Not quite as bad with local press

as with the national press, but what they need as much support as

we can give them. I suppose there is a question to ask about the

merit of news, you know, we have half an hour of news on an evening

on BBC One Wales and ITV Wales and S4C, does what happens here merit

the time that it gets on the news? Should you get more or should it

get less? It is difficult now, having come into I have seen how

the Assembly works. The things that I think ought to have more coverage

of things like the business that goes on in committee so that people

can understand that it is not just about be ding-dong that they see in

the Chamber, but there is a lot more going on behind the scenes.

That is very under-reported in any form of media, it has to be said,

apart from Democracy Live where they can access that. We actually

worked together a fair bit, don't we? Believe it or not! We do, we

talk to each other. On purpose, and through the committee structures

where we work in a less partisan basis. We tried to put the issues

first. I would love people to see more of that. I know you must go

now. Don't forget your coats. The former Cabinet minister Lord Morris

of Aberavon has published his autobiography, 50 Years in Politics

and the Law. He served in the Cabinet if for three Prime

Ministers and was an MP for over 40 years. He joins me on the am.pm so

there yesterday, and I began by asking him why he entered politics

and why he chose the Labour Party. I was always interested in politics

as a young boy at university. I wanted to do two things, which I

spell out very briefly in my book. I am not given to philosophising. I

wanted to bring government closer to the people of Wales and to work

on it. We did not talk about devolution. It was not a word that

we used. I also wanted to see a measure of social justice and

striving for equality. Those were the two aims. As regards the second,

the Labour Party was obviously the party to go to. As regards the

first, of bringing government closer to the people of Wales, no

other party, except a party that had a majority in Westminster,

could do that, and that was only the Labour Party. You were involved

in the build up and the Yes campaign in the 1979 referendum, a

referendum in which your side of the argument was defeated. Since

then, obviously, devolution has moved on. What do you think change

for the people of Wales who eventually said yes to devolution?

In my time had not worked properly to prepare the ground. My party was

not united. There was the winter of discontent when bodies were waiting

to be buried in chapels in Newport, and we did not have a fire service.

There was a complete industrial disaster so it was the wrong time.

Perhaps I should have worked harder. I did not work enough to unite my

party and prepare the ground. When you see an elephant on your

doorstep, you know it is there. Since that time, we had 18 years in

opposition. We had the Thatcher government. We had John Redwood,

the Secretary of State. There was a realisation that the industrial

problems of the 80s and 90s that devolution was one way of

ameliorating the difficulties that we faced as regards employment,

spending on the social services, and bringing justice to the people.

There was a complete change around in mind. I don't know of any

serious politician today who is opposed to devolution. He said you

wished you had worked harder. It is fascinating to have a politician

sitting on this sofa, being so honest. Is that they regret of

yours? Yes, a deep regret. I was working my fingers to the bone. I

was running wild with only two Parliamentary Secretaries. Now

there is a whole Government doing the same thing -- running Wales. I

had a responsibility for all the services in Wales, and winning new

powers every year. We were very new attic. Industry, agriculture,

education. A whole range of issues, and now they are the building

blocks of the new Assembly. I was working my fingers to the bone. It

was a very long day. Six years' hard work. I would not recommend it,

but I did not work hard enough politically. The devolution process

has developed over time that we just discussed. How much further do

you see it going? Well, I believe a great opportunity was missed in not

bringing Welsh language broadcasting within the purview of

the Assembly. I made a speech on that, so I believe that is crying

out. We missed an opportunity when there was plenty of money about and

we could have come -- could have had compensation to the Welsh

Assembly for financing S4C. Secondly, the interface between the

police services, the county councils and the social services is

also crying out for devolution. served under three Prime Ministers.

The obvious question would be to ask you, who was your favourite,

but I will ask you the opposite - who was your least favourite?

I put it this way, who did I work closer to? I never felt I was

working close to Tony Blair. I was an independent Attorney General,

trying to workout according to the rule of law what was correct, legal

and proper. Perhaps I was not always popular in Number Ten

Downing Street for that. I had to run the legal side of Kosovo. For

68 days they came with me -- came to meet with their military targets

and I had to give the go-ahead. Under Harold Wilson, of course, I

was very close to him. And Jim Callaghan was a Welsh Member of

Parliament, and they were more my generation. I just sent a book to

Harold Wilson's widow who is 91. We worked very closely and were both -

- they were both terribly kind to me. You spoke as -- about your time

as Attorney General when there was a mix of both your professions in

politics did you find offering legal advice in that situation, and

moving on in time, how pleased were you not to have to do that job

during the time that the country went to war with Iraq? I was very

pleased. I don't judge my predecessors all my successors. It

is for others to judge. But I tried to do it by the book. I gave the

advice - I was breaking new ground. International legal law is much

more constructive, it is not so clear, and I had to authorise air

attacks in Kosovo on a daily basis. That, according to what I thought

was the right way of doing it without the United Nations approval.

Or Security Council approval, I should say. When you have ethnic

cleansing on the scale in Kosovo, where thousands and thousands of

people are moved from their homes because of their background,

religion and ethnicity, then that something has to be done. Add to be

very simple view. If there is a burglar attacking your home and

raping members of your family, and the police constable would

intervene, there is no time to go to the chief constable or to the

Standing Joint Committee. You have got to do something, otherwise it

will be too late. Some of us, even though we were only children, know

about the Holocaust and the background of ethnic cleansing in

the past, it still haunts us, even though we were not there to realise

what was happening. Finally, you are still in politics and still a

member of the House of Lords. Is there any unfinished business that

you would like to do? I am winding down. I am nearly 80, but I have

just finished a long stint of the scrutiny of the defamation Bill. I

am only a criminal lawyer, not a defamation lawyer, and that was

really hard work. Hours of reading. I think that will be my last stint

on a major committee. Thank you very much for joining us.

Thank you. The issue of the influence of

lobbyists in the light of Dr Liam Fox's resignation came up at Prime

Minister's Questions with the Prime Minister saying he was committed to

a register of lobbyists at Westminster. But what is the

situation here in Cardiff Bay? I'm joined by Gareth Hughes, who has

come in from the rain to speak to us. What is the situation here? Do

we know who is doing the lobbying? No, we don't. Before they build the

new Senedd building, they used to be a milling area in the old Senedd

way you could see these lobbyists. They were ready to pounce on

Assembly Members. We knew roughly who they were. But now we don't

know. It becomes more important because now this place has law-

making powers. We know that in the planning Bill going through

Westminster, the lobbying firms have actually paid for a lot of

access to ministers. When there is an important Bill going through

this place, will be no other there is access to ministers happening?

Know. We don't have any knowledge at all. Something needs to happen

here. There could be a misuse. interviewed a Rhodri Morgan on this

subject and he said that he did not see that there was any need for

lobbyists because if a constituent wanted to speak to him about any

matter, they could just make an appointment to speak to him. He

felt that lobbying was not as prevalent. Well, there are lobbying

firms working in Wales, we know that. What we -- what they do, we

don't know. They should not be a need. There is open access to

members here. But what we don't know is how many people access

these members, how many people access ministers, how often they

meet, where they meet, and what the subject of discussion is. There

could be undue influence born on ministers and on backbenchers, too.

We need to know. That is why the register could be important. And if

there is no register, there is an opportunity for the likes of us to

ask questions? Yes, but he would you ask questions to? We are not