20/11/2012 am.pm

Hello. Welcome to the programme. It is our weekly coverage of questions

to the First Minister. Plenty of tax inquest yesterday. Carwyn Jones

will face an questions also about tax after yesterday's publication

of the Silk Commission. The report recommended Welsh Ministers should

in future have some responsibility over income tax and take control of

some of the smaller taxes. That is what I think the

politicians will be talking about today. What do you want to talk

about? If you want to comment on anything on the programme or any

other political news, get in touch. The address is on the screen.

Business in the Chamber is already under way but let's take a look at

questions to the First Minister, Carwyn Jones.

Good afternoon. The National Assembly for Wales is now in

session. The first item is questions to the First Minister.

Good afternoon, First Minister. Will the First Minister outline how

the programme for government is improving the lives of people in

the south-west. The potential downgrading of accident and

emergency services in Bridgend leave many in South Wales West to

feel that their lives will not be improved as questions of access to

those centralised services inevitably arise. One of the

drivers of the downgrading is the lack of consultants. There is no

shortage of undergraduates in Wales, how can the Welsh government help

direct them to follow postgraduate Groats in specialisms we actually

need to in Wales? The I am fully aware, as I live in Bridgend. With

regard to accident and emergency, there is a shortage of specialists

across the UK. It is an unattractive specialism in some

ways because of the hours involved. It would certainly help if you go

government were to revise its Visa regulations in order to make the UK

more welcoming -- UK government. Historically, the NHS has relied on

doctors from outside the UK. A situation seems to be improved.

Will the First Minister make a statement on the Wash government's

public procurement policy in North Wales? -- Welsh government for.

will maximise the expenditure across Wales. That is the policy.

am sure we would all agree with that but construction companies in

North Wales are very unhappy with the decision to create what is

called a framework vehicle. That is across North Wales for the 21st

century schools programme. In a letter to representatives, your

Finance Minister stated... But in another letter to the same group

from the chief executive of Denbighshire, leading this group,

he says the authorities have been advised by Welsh government of

grant funding for the 21st century schools programme being conditional

on councils agreeing to collaborative procedures. Is he

telling the truth? Well, the Government is working with

businesses and public bodies across North Wales to ensure that there

are further opportunities available to businesses in terms of

procurement, in terms of the 21st century schools programme, I know

that far you Wales are providing support to councils to ensure that

their procurement strategies are the correct ones -- Value Wales.

And that they adopt the correct policies in terms of insuring that

opportunities are available to businesses in North Wales. We are

working with councils in North Wales and the Minister for finance

will be publishing a procurement policy statement before Christmas

explaining what we expect from public bodies in this area.

First Minister, many businesses in North Wales hoping to benefit from

public sector investment are repeatedly disappointed that your

government overlooks the region where it allocates its capital

investment. North Wales has 20 % of the population of Wales and

receives just 13 % of the capital funding. Do you understand why so

many people in North Wales believe that there are ignored by your

government and we commit to delivering capital investment in

North Wales that disproportionate to the population living there?

do not believe we have a disadvantage in the north in any

way. This is something the Tories would like to do. A lot of people

in North Wales say to me that they will feel disadvantaged giving the

UK government's changes in welfare benefits. They certainly do look to

the Wash government to protect the interests of Wales against the

interests of the UK government -- In 20th February 12, the Government

announced they were changing the public procurement practice in

Wales, referred specifically to simplifying the pre- qualification

requirements. Mention was made by the Finance Minister at the time

regarding the database and advances that have been made. Are you able

to tell us when you will be publishing new data to show whether

or not that advance has been sustained? We are committed to

adopting key procurement policies. And our communities benefit

approach to procurement will -- will fully monitor this approach.

We now move to questions to the party leaders. First is the leader

of Plaid Cymru, pride -- Leanne Wood. In 2008, asked

representatives of energy companies whether or not they met to discuss

prices. Those decisions have been strong enough that the FSA is

conducting and investigation and that an European Union wide

investigation is now likely. The UK government is making an

announcement today on social tariffs. First Minister, what

powers to the last government have to intervene over the energy market

in Wales? -- Welsh government. I had a meeting last week that it -

- together with some of the energy suppliers. If there has been price

rigging by the energy companies, that will have heard not just Welsh

householders but companies and public sector institutions in Wales

as well. As a result of another rigging scandal over the into

banking rate, a fine of �290 million was levied on Barclays but

none of that money was returned to those people directly affected by

that. What action do you think is appropriate for energy companies if

they are found guilty of market rigging? I think the appropriate

the authority should take the strongest possible action against

them. Members of the public feel there is no competition in the

energy market. They feel they are paying too much for energy. And the

energy companies do have a job to do in explaining to people how it

is they are making substantial profits while of course seeing

consumer prices rise. Thank you for that constructive response, First

Minister. UK Energy Minister has confirmed to MPs that any fines

resulting from this will be paid to the energy regulator and not to

energy consumers. In the same way as the Barclays fine was paid to

the FSA. I were to put -- suggest an option taken by the city of

Baltimore. They had been leading a class-action against 16 US and UK

banks exist 20th June 11. It is unlikely that families or companies

in Wales would be able to go to court to reclaim the inflated

companies that they have paid to energy companies, the size

differential is too great. But if market-rigging is confirmed then

the Welsh public sector will have been major losers. If this

transpires, will the Welsh government lead 8 group litigation

order co-ordinated with the Welsh public sector Andy encourage

participation of what householders and businesses against the bar --

energy companies? I am not sure what the point was that you are

making but I will try to answer it as best I can. Is there a way of

money being recouped to the Welsh public sector? As a result of any

price rigging should that be true? The first step is for the

appropriate investigations to be made. And then of course, thought

can be given to how compensation that is appropriate can be made.

Kirsty Williams. First Minister, the National Assembly can make laws

unspent money but it is the only legislature or in the world without

pause over tax pit -- taxation. The Silk Commission are set out a

blueprint with support across the political spectrum. You support

borrowing powers us of the minor taxes set out in the report and you

have also been claw -- clear that Wales is a fair funding formula. --

needs. Do you broadly endorse the package as a whole? Yes, I do.

Thank you for a clarification. Recommendation 18 of the Silk

Commission says the transfer of income tax powers to the Wash

government should be conditional upon resolving the fair funding

issue -- Welsh government. What discussions have you had with the

Chancellor, the Chief Secretary to the Treasury and the Shadow

Chancellor to ensure that all parties commit to introducing a

fair funding formula to enable this to an Apple by 2020? I have had

exhaustive discussions with the UK government. The UK government will

not wish to revisit Barnett foreman Will the Shadow can't -- Chancellor

commit to a fair funding formula? All four parties in Cardiff have

worked together to ensure that the Silk Commission in the first place

was set up and two in -- agree its term of reference and all party

nominees have worked together on the commission to forge a consensus

on a future direction and a way forward for Wales. I now believe it

is essential that the UK and the Wash Government's work quickly and

corporate very to implement all of the findings -- Welsh government.

We be making representations to the UK government to ask for a

legislative slot way Wales Bill in the spring of 2014 as recommended

by the Silk Commission. In answer to the first question, I can say

they have been discussions by T Pass with figures in the Labour

Party outside of Wales regarding Nevertheless, I do welcome her

commitment to the reform. In regard to the second point, I have already

raised this issue with the Secretary of State for Wales. I

have made it clear there is a need for a legislative slot to be found

before the end of the 2015 Parliament. He is sympathetic to

that. He has indicated it does not mean of course that the UK

government were necessary except every recommendation at this stage.

I hope every recommendation is accepted however. I look forward to

seeing a legislative slot being made available as well as possible.

Andrew RT Davies. We fully recommend -- welcomed the

recommendations made yesterday and I treat -- pay tribute to the

members of that commission, in particular Nick Bourne. He played

an active part. The key thing about fiscal responsibility is that word

responsibility. And we have had a decade where we have had a period

of spending without responsibility. Money has arrived and we have

looked at the of rope and spent it. Do you not believe it is critical

that we moved to a climate that incurs responsibility on the watch

government for the money that it spends? -- Welsh government.

Leader of the Opposition makes it sound as if we are not elected in

this Chamber. It is ironic of course but de Silk

Commission was set up by a former Secretary of State for Wales who

did suggest there should be greater accountability which is ironic

given the fact she was not accountable in any way to the

people of Wales. I do not accept there is somehow power without

responsibility. As the Leader of the Opposition knows, we are more

than happy as a government to take forward the recommendations. As per

usual, I did not hear any word of the bellyaching by the Minister. I

am sure that the regional members on his own benches which allow him

to govern will have heard its words. And certainly, it is not in our

position to divide and rule much like the Labour Party do by trying

to divide and rule in Wales by the rhetoric he gave today. I asked him

a very simple question about this possibility. Time and time again,

we have had from the First Minister speeches on constitutional matters,

legal jurisdiction, and yet on the very simple question of

responsibility, financial responsibility, or he can do today

his belly ache and tried to divide members in this institution. I

think that is quite a damning indictment on the first Mr's

response to the Silk Commission. It is unfortunate when a leader of

the opposition cannot do anything but stick with his cigarette. We'll

look for work to his party taking forward the recommendations of the

The Silk Report for work. Sticking to this get is one thing I can

never be accused of a! We are fully supportive of the recommendations

of the The Silk Report. The time frame is important. There are some

recommendations that could call for work. The likes of business rates

and the business rate multiplier. Especially when you think that

nearly 99 out of 100 businesses in Wales are qualified as small

businesses. Could some of the smaller recommendations that could

make a big difference to Welsh Business p implemented? As we are

fair, there are the problems around Cardiff Airport, but the aspect of

business rates for small businesses are very important. This is

something which has to be taken for three legislative vehicle through

the United Kingdom government. We would expect to see the

recommendations of the The Silk Report taken for work. -- for a

word. Good the First Minister make a statement on how the Welsh

government is helping entrepreneurs? We have got the

regional centre and the entrepreneur's conference. People

always tell me about the rising transport costs been very damaging.

Members of the business community say any scrapping of the charges

would make a huge difference to them. Once the contract comes to an

end, it is entirely wrong that any tolls are simply set and there is

no looking at them again. That would be entirely wrong. These

should be reviewed and the likes of tolls could then be used to improve

our major roads. First Minister, one essential condition for

business to his five is for them to have a supply of well-qualified

school leavers. According to a recent survey, four out of five

small businesses did not think that Welsh school leavers do not have

the necessary literacy and numeracy skills. What is the government

doing to ensure that enough people leave school with the

qualifications which best suit them for being able to find employment?

We support entrepreneurial programmes and support young people

been entrepreneurs. We are the cheap as part of the United Kingdom

to pit the supermarket. Clearly this is unacceptable. Now you take

up look at business rate so we can plant beneficial measures to draw

up small businesses and then come back to this Senedd and tell us how

successful you have been in that? What consideration as the First

Minister given to reviewing TAN 18? Were a will of course consider any

recommendations that come out of the public inquiry currently going

on into public transport. Of all the horses in it Wales, three-

quarters of them are in Caernarfon Shire. Bridle path stuck been

opened and the deserve great credit for that. Would you consider

including horse riders as part of the vulnerable users of power

highways. Would you be willing to ensure that their plight is also

recognised? I will consider that. The men but does raise an important

point. I was not anticipating that question! This is more in the

essence of TAN 18. The active transport Wales Bill is at an early

stage. There are obviously concerns about that that it is trying to do

a great number of things, the integration of lime juice into the

transport system. It strikes me that this will need review if we

are to assist the effective implementation of the active

transport bill. We due in To undertake that, if it would help,

he would review this as soon as possible? We would do anything to

assist the passage and implementation of any bill.

present, the emphasis is on the drafting of it. But we do want to

insure that it works in tandem with The people of Montgomerie Shire are

hoping that the postponement of the power station proposal will lead to

a fuel fill a review into the situation. We do not want costly

wind farms and paused on a or communities. People are saying that

enough is enough. Do you agree with that? The United Kingdom government

has responsibility for good connections. His comments should be

directed against that particular minister. As regards the sub-

station, that is the matter for the county council, not for the Welsh

government. Montgomerie Shire is one of the most beautiful parts of

Wales, perfectly suited for rural cycling. The organisers of the Tour

the France, along with British cycling, art looking to bring the

event back to the British Isles in the next few years. What are you

doing to securing a possible bid to bring the Tour the France to Wales.

His, and I can confirm that we have been working with partners as

regards the joint bed for the next few years. The Minister for wind

turbine said it there is an important point to be looked at.

Would the First Minister look to Scotland, which has power over

energy in its entirety. With the Welsh gunmen be making the

strongest case possible -- the Welsh government make the strongest

case possible with regards to controlling that. There is a

complete shambles taking place in the London as regards energy policy.

We have said that we need to devolve this. We think we need to

have control over major energy projects, so we can show what the

economic benefits for the country. The current situation where this is

controlled by central government is not fair. The what can be achieved

by the local growth Sones initiative. Which infrastructure

projects within the county is the government prepared to prioritise,

to assist in the successful delivery of that? I am thinking

particularly of the station project and also the hourly service on the

main train line? That is part of the national transport plan. As

regards the increase in service, that has been problematic. The

frequency on the line will be improved as soon as possible, as

part of the national transport plan. Does this not once again emphasised

the need for the Welsh government to take action on the

recommendations of the sustainability of the environment

issues? And I have an issue and from the First Minister that it is

still a priority of the Welsh government policy to actually work

on the constructive response to the report? Yes, of course. We did

accept many of the recommendations, but it is very difficult to isolate

them individually. We see the people in England, Northern Ireland

and Scotland able to do so because they have improved powers. That

will be the government's stand in the future, that Wales should be

treated in the same manner as the other countries within the United

Kingdom. The will the First Minister make a statement on the

condition of the ambulance service in South Wales? Yes, they have

achieved the 65 % national response standard. There are aware proposals

with regard to restructuring services in South Wales. That will

have an impact. This relates particularly to accident and

emergency. Has he had discussions with the NHS in Wales as regards to

the possible impact of these proposals? I am having

consultations as regards that. I expect the ambulance trust to be

fully involved in further discussions. Cannot take that a bit

further. - Michael can I take that a bit further. What steps are being

taken to make sure that lost ambulance source will not be the

outcome of this? We are very aware of the possibility of lost

ambulance time. We are speaking to representatives from all the

In recent weeks, we have seen stations closing due to lack of

manpower. It is a miserable state of affairs. The consultation

referred to earlier were due to start in January. Should that

consultation be delayed until we have a much clearer picture of the

state of the ambulance service following bad review? We know that

doctors themselves are saying that it is not sustainable in the future

to carry on exactly as we are. We must plan to have services that are

both safe and sustainable and that is why it is absolutely crucial

that the plans are put in place now to ensure the -- that is the case

in the future. Will the First Minister make a statement on the

actions to reduce child poverty in Wales? Questions seven and 11 will

be grouped. It is a fundamental priority for the Welsh government.

The creatures in the tackling poverty Action Plan for Wales. --

it features. Tour of the objectives reflect the importance of fiscal

levers. Yesterday, the Silk Commission identified some of those

levers may be transferred to the Wash divide. That may not be until

Good progress has been made on the tackling poverty Action Plan. There

have been exhaustive discussions with the UK government. Ministers

have discuss their concerns about the implications for the people of

Wales. I certainly raised this myself with the Minister for

education and skills and the Minister for education and skills

has raised questions about the implementation of the UK government

reforms in Wales. First Minister, the secretary

staked, Iain Duncan-Smith, has recently set out his belief that

the benefits system ought not to provide any additional help for

families what does with more than two children -- Secretary of State.

Lord has been suggested as policy will be extended to free school

meals. We provide an assurance that in Welsh Schools at least no child

will be sent away hungry -- will The member is absolutely right to

point out that as things stand at the moment, where families are on

benefits and they have more than two children, the first two

children will be fed in school and subsequent children will not be.

That is the extent of the humanity that exists at the moment. I can

assure the member that the scenario he has outlined will not happen in

Wales. First Minister, you will agree that

Wales has the highest child poverty in the United Kingdom and a survey

carried out by the Prince's Trust in 2011 looked into children's

views. 10 % of young people growing up in Wales felt that people like

them do not succeed in life. 12 % imagining that they would end up on

benefits at some point in their lives. In your action plan, we your

action plan hope to change those attitudes? It will indeed.

Policies that his party is a pause, I can say to him, there are

differences between -- on these benches is -- benches and his party.

They want to remove those opportunities. Minister, as the

chart of the Act targets and measures apply right across the UK,

we your covenant be responding to the UK government's consultation on

how to measure child poverty -- We'll outline your view one those

changes. How do you think child poverty is best measured questioned

-- when governments tried to change the way in which government --

polity is measured, there is a sneaking suspicion they outright a

cover-up figures they are First Minister, you will be aware

that there are areas of �46 million in child support payments owed to

parents in North Wales alone. This money would make a significant

contribution to reducing child poverty. Across Wales, the figure

stands at �207 million. What representations has your government

made to the UK government to ensure this huge and growing legacy of

payment does get paid to watch pennants -- parents as soon as

possible? Her party suggested charging people to ensure that

children received the payments they were due. It is no good saying that

payments should be made for a child of -- child support, she is right

that should happen, but saying that the charge should be made on people

if they wish to pursue the money that is rightfully theirs, she

should not be surprised if people find they cannot actually get the

money they are entitled to. She is right to point out that absent

parents sometimes should pay for their children at every obstacle

must be ruled by the UK government in order to make sure that children

get the money that they deserve. have been an elected representative

of some kind for 37 continuous years. For the first time on Sunday

at my home, a gentleman knocked my door and said, I do not have enough

money to purchase an alert as the token. Can you help me? One of your

key priorities is from a workless household -- it is one of your

three key targets, what is the progress please? We are making good

progress if you look at the figures. The levels of economic activity in

Wales on the Wadham they have been in history. It is also right to say

at the level of unemployment is coming down. -- are lower than they

There is progress but there is more work that will be done to make sure

that situation does not occur in the future. Will the First Minister

make a statement on his priorities regarding transporting the next 12

months? Yes, they are to be found in the national transport policy.

One of the priorities must be to tackle levels of overcrowding on

rail services in Wales. You will be aware that �13.2 million has been

spent lengthening platforms at rail stations across the valleys lines

and yet in the last five years, no investment has been made to

actually buy new rolling stock to provide those larger trains. Over

the next couple of years, as electrification projects take place

across the UK, releasing these are rolling stock units, will the Welsh

government be bidding to get some of those diesel units to help

tackle overcrowding whilst we are waiting for our own electrification

project to begin? These are things we are looking at. In the longer

term, we know that the franchise will come to an end in 2018. We

want to explore innovative possibilities in terms of a

franchise being run in the future. It is not me -- mean that we need

to have sufficient control over the awarding of the franchise. We

understand that the rail network is more and more heavily used. That is

something we welcome and we understand that. We are looking at

ways to endure more rolling-stock does become available before

electrification takes place -- to ensure. With the electrification of

the Valley's lines in the pipeline, would he agree it is essential that

there is a single passenger transport authority for the south-

east region with real powers on the lines of Manchester and Glasgow and

doesn't he think this is essential that we start planning for that?

There are a number of possibilities being explored at the moment. When

the valley Lines in their greatest definition are electrified, that

does create an opportunity to create a proper South Wales metro

network that will be properly integrated, it will need to be pop

rebranded and Italy to be run as an integrated network. -- and it will

need to be. We are looking at a number of options to ensure that

effective -- and effective system is put in place.

We will leave it there. Do not forget, you can see more coverage

online from BBC Wales's Democracy Live page. The address is on the

screen. An afternoon. Let's concentrate now

on the Silk Commission. I don't know if it caught your attention.

But that Carwyn Jones put in -- putting the ball in the UK's court,

asking them to implement all the recommendations are some as

possible, perhaps in a hope that they are unable to do that? -- as

soon as possible. There was a real development went Carwyn Jones said

very firmly that he wanted legislative -- a legislative slot

in Westminster to bring recommendations into law before the

next general election. That is a bitter but look -- stronger than he

said in his initial comments to the press yesterday and two television

where he was sort of indicating the reservations he had about the Silk

Commission. The lack of fair Funding. Today, it was a different

attitude. It was, we can sort that out because there is a referendum

to be held but let's get this into law. I thought he was sounding a

lot keener on the Silk Commission today that he sounded initially

yesterday. We heard Kirsty Williams and Andrew RT Davies. Leanne Wood

went on a different tack today. What did you make of that? It was

an odd decision. She was going first, I would have thought it was

her opportunity to claim some always ship over the Silk

Commission, to say that this is something Plaid Cymru has been

leading -- ownership. He went on this issue of price fixing. It is

an important issue for people at home but it did seem a strange time

to do it when she had the opportunity going first at first

Ministers questions to lead off on the Silk Commission and she very

must have left that to Kirsty Williams. She did what I thought

Leanne Wood should have been doing. They took up the timetable for the

Silk Commission. Carwyn Jones is looking for a slot before the end

of the 2015 Parliament. People I have been talking to are asking,

when will the Welsh government be responsible for income tax? If it

were all to go through, one would have a deep -- when would we expect

this to come into play? resuming the Government does give a

legislative slot, the Secretary of State for Wales wants one, so he is

probably likely to get it. They were talking of a referendum in

2017 in the report and the powers coming in 2020. I think that isn't

-- ambitious. I think it will take longer than that. There was a

suggestion from Kirsty would use that Labour might win the next

election. Carwyn Jones welcome that. -- Kirsty Williams. Nothing what

was interesting was Kirsty Williams was trying to embarrass Carwyn

Jones because it Ed Balls is not committed -- convinced of the need

to change the Barnett formula. But I don't think a change of