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Welcome to this afternoon session of the Foreign Affairs Committee | 0:00:18 | 0:00:21 | |
on the ongoing enquiry into Brexit process. | 0:00:21 | 0:00:30 | |
The Secretary of State, you are very welcome. | 0:00:30 | 0:00:34 | |
I note this is your second meeting in two days | 0:00:34 | 0:00:42 | |
and you told the House of Lords European Scrutiny | 0:00:42 | 0:00:44 | |
Committee | 0:00:44 | 0:00:44 | |
yesterday appearing in front of them | 0:00:44 | 0:00:46 | |
was a particular pleasure. | 0:00:46 | 0:00:54 | |
I hope to be back today. | 0:00:54 | 0:00:56 | |
Is that what you schedule a meeting | 0:00:56 | 0:00:58 | |
at that site of the building. | 0:00:58 | 0:00:59 | |
It was not me who does the scheduling. | 0:00:59 | 0:01:04 | |
The scheduling was theirs. | 0:01:04 | 0:01:09 | |
You presumably make the decision to go there first | 0:01:09 | 0:01:16 | |
and that is the gentle hook I want to take into my question, | 0:01:16 | 0:01:19 | |
to examine your assessment of the legal and parliamentary | 0:01:19 | 0:01:22 | |
implications of the Brexit process. | 0:01:22 | 0:01:26 | |
Can you confirm there is going to have to be | 0:01:26 | 0:01:28 | |
an Act of Parliament in order to leave the EU? | 0:01:28 | 0:01:32 | |
There will have to be some legislation, no doubt about it. | 0:01:32 | 0:01:35 | |
There are various stages. | 0:01:35 | 0:01:38 | |
Firstly, legislation to deal with the European Communities Act 1972 | 0:01:38 | 0:01:43 | |
and the consequential legislation on from that. | 0:01:43 | 0:01:49 | |
There may have to be parliamentary ratification under | 0:01:49 | 0:01:59 | |
the relevant 2010 legislation. | 0:01:59 | 0:02:04 | |
The so-called CRA legislation. | 0:02:04 | 0:02:06 | |
That is the absolute minimum that I can see. | 0:02:06 | 0:02:10 | |
So we cannot leave the EU if that is not in place? | 0:02:10 | 0:02:16 | |
Well, we can leave but what the legislation does | 0:02:16 | 0:02:21 | |
is put in place directives and various other pieces of law | 0:02:21 | 0:02:30 | |
which will still have effect if we did not. | 0:02:30 | 0:02:36 | |
Whilst we require a treaty change, we were in that sense still be | 0:02:36 | 0:02:41 | |
reporting back to the European Court in some respects. | 0:02:41 | 0:02:46 | |
What I am seeking to establish if there are acts of parliament | 0:02:46 | 0:02:50 | |
to be put in place or repealed. | 0:02:50 | 0:02:56 | |
So, that is perhaps why you were at the other side | 0:02:56 | 0:03:00 | |
of the building, my assessment is that there is a majority | 0:03:00 | 0:03:05 | |
in the House of Commons to support the Prime Minister in Brexit | 0:03:05 | 0:03:09 | |
means Brexit and despite the fact the number of conservatives | 0:03:09 | 0:03:12 | |
were campaigning to remain in the EU | 0:03:12 | 0:03:16 | |
they have accepted the decision of the electorate | 0:03:16 | 0:03:19 | |
and will now support the Government | 0:03:19 | 0:03:22 | |
in the process of leaving the EU. | 0:03:22 | 0:03:27 | |
However, it is my assessment you could not be as confident | 0:03:27 | 0:03:30 | |
that is the position down the other end of the building | 0:03:30 | 0:03:34 | |
in the House of Lords, would you agree? | 0:03:34 | 0:03:37 | |
Well, you are wrong about the calculation | 0:03:37 | 0:03:39 | |
in that there was no calculation in terms of who I saw first | 0:03:39 | 0:03:43 | |
and second, I have not made an assessment of what the balance | 0:03:43 | 0:03:46 | |
of power or balance of interest or voting with the end | 0:03:46 | 0:03:51 | |
of each house. | 0:03:51 | 0:03:55 | |
It is a bit early to do so for a start. | 0:03:55 | 0:04:01 | |
Any legislative change would be based at least in part | 0:04:01 | 0:04:04 | |
where the negotiation had got to buy them | 0:04:04 | 0:04:08 | |
and whether or not individual members of each house approved. | 0:04:08 | 0:04:13 | |
I do not know where we will be. | 0:04:13 | 0:04:16 | |
My hope and intention is we will have a majority | 0:04:16 | 0:04:18 | |
in both houses. | 0:04:18 | 0:04:20 | |
Can I gently suggest the Government could be | 0:04:20 | 0:04:24 | |
reasonably confident that of a majority in the Commons, | 0:04:24 | 0:04:28 | |
in order to carry out the decision of the British people, | 0:04:28 | 0:04:31 | |
that is a rather more open question | 0:04:31 | 0:04:33 | |
about the attitudes of the house of Lords, where the Government has | 0:04:33 | 0:04:37 | |
a significant minority and there are a number | 0:04:37 | 0:04:41 | |
of conservatives who are appear to be determined to obstruct | 0:04:41 | 0:04:52 | |
the country's route to Brexit. | 0:04:52 | 0:04:55 | |
If you were in that place, then obstructing the Acts | 0:04:55 | 0:04:58 | |
of Parliament that are required to enable Brexit is something that | 0:04:58 | 0:05:01 | |
will have to be overcome by the House of Commons | 0:05:01 | 0:05:05 | |
using the Parliament act. | 0:05:05 | 0:05:08 | |
What I would suggest to you whether you would agree | 0:05:08 | 0:05:11 | |
if it was a sensible idea for the legislative process to be | 0:05:11 | 0:05:14 | |
commenced in sufficient time for it to be | 0:05:14 | 0:05:18 | |
on the statute book having overcome opposition | 0:05:18 | 0:05:21 | |
in the House of Lords by the use of the Parliament act | 0:05:21 | 0:05:25 | |
so we can leave the EU by the early part of 2019. | 0:05:25 | 0:05:37 | |
Again, I will challenge the basis on which you make your argument. | 0:05:37 | 0:05:41 | |
The simple truth is what the Government is doing is | 0:05:41 | 0:05:43 | |
carrying out the biggest ever mandate given | 0:05:43 | 0:05:45 | |
to the Government by the British people. | 0:05:45 | 0:05:47 | |
Nearly 17.5 million people. | 0:05:47 | 0:05:56 | |
Had it been a general election between two parties called Leave | 0:05:56 | 0:05:59 | |
and Remain, the majority for Leave would be bigger | 0:05:59 | 0:06:01 | |
than Tony Blair's majority 1997. | 0:06:01 | 0:06:03 | |
It is a clear mandate and the House of Lords | 0:06:03 | 0:06:07 | |
would be unwise not to take that seriously. | 0:06:07 | 0:06:13 | |
They have a perfectly reasonable possession and challenging | 0:06:13 | 0:06:18 | |
elements of the negotiation but I would be very surprised | 0:06:18 | 0:06:23 | |
if they were unwise enough to go down the route or blocking it. | 0:06:23 | 0:06:32 | |
It has been a view of this committee the Government | 0:06:32 | 0:06:34 | |
was guilty of gross negligence for not preparing | 0:06:34 | 0:06:37 | |
for Brexit in advance. | 0:06:37 | 0:06:39 | |
It is also the view that it may amount to gross | 0:06:39 | 0:06:42 | |
negligence if you proceeded on the assumption all would-be | 0:06:42 | 0:06:45 | |
hunky-dory and you would get you legislation in good order | 0:06:45 | 0:06:49 | |
because the House of Lords were minded to upgrade instruction | 0:06:49 | 0:06:59 | |
because the House of Lords were minded to obey instruction | 0:06:59 | 0:07:01 | |
of the British people. | 0:07:01 | 0:07:02 | |
Wouldn't it be prudent to make sure your legislation was then | 0:07:02 | 0:07:05 | |
placed insufficient time to allow us to leave the EU? | 0:07:05 | 0:07:08 | |
On a date of the Government's choosing or at the conclusion | 0:07:08 | 0:07:11 | |
of negotiations two years after giving notice | 0:07:11 | 0:07:13 | |
under article 50. | 0:07:13 | 0:07:15 | |
under Article 50. | 0:07:15 | 0:07:17 | |
You are jumping to the conclusion of the committee report | 0:07:17 | 0:07:19 | |
on a decision I have yet to take. | 0:07:19 | 0:07:24 | |
I suspect it is getting the committee ahead of itself. | 0:07:24 | 0:07:28 | |
I am clearly intending to get us to a position of leaving the EU | 0:07:28 | 0:07:32 | |
within the normal Article 50 timetable. | 0:07:32 | 0:07:35 | |
I will make the legislative arrangements that are necessary | 0:07:35 | 0:07:38 | |
to get there. | 0:07:38 | 0:07:41 | |
That is the simple case of the matter. | 0:07:41 | 0:07:43 | |
I will not, I am afraid, hypothesised with this committee | 0:07:43 | 0:07:46 | |
or any other about the way I got house will vote. | 0:07:46 | 0:07:54 | |
or any other about the way either house will vote. | 0:07:54 | 0:07:57 | |
That is for the whips and the usual channels to do and I will make | 0:07:57 | 0:08:01 | |
decisions based on the advice. | 0:08:01 | 0:08:02 | |
I will not air this any more public | 0:08:02 | 0:08:09 | |
to jeopardise them. | 0:08:09 | 0:08:12 | |
I am grateful for Europe's reply this morning | 0:08:12 | 0:08:19 | |
I am grateful for your reply this morning | 0:08:19 | 0:08:21 | |
on my letter to the Attorney General | 0:08:21 | 0:08:23 | |
of legal issues on leaving the EU. | 0:08:23 | 0:08:25 | |
I wrote to him and invited him to reply by the 13th of July | 0:08:25 | 0:08:29 | |
and I am delighted he finally replied on the 13th of September. | 0:08:29 | 0:08:32 | |
Albeit from me. | 0:08:32 | 0:08:36 | |
I am very grateful. | 0:08:36 | 0:08:39 | |
What I am less satisfied by is the terms of your answers. | 0:08:39 | 0:08:45 | |
I want to explore why you are unable | 0:08:45 | 0:08:47 | |
to give answers to some rather basic questions. | 0:08:47 | 0:08:50 | |
The first question I put to the attorney was can all be | 0:08:50 | 0:08:54 | |
directly applicable regulations currently applied to the UK be | 0:08:54 | 0:08:57 | |
transposed into UK law in a single act of Parliament. | 0:08:57 | 0:09:02 | |
That struck me as a rather straightforward question | 0:09:02 | 0:09:04 | |
and your reply said you would appreciate the questions raised | 0:09:04 | 0:09:10 | |
in your letter touched on issues currently the subject of legal | 0:09:10 | 0:09:13 | |
proceedings, to which the Government is party. | 0:09:13 | 0:09:24 | |
Areas raised by them which it would therefore not be appropriate | 0:09:24 | 0:09:26 | |
for me to comment on. | 0:09:26 | 0:09:28 | |
Please do explain how this simple technical question | 0:09:28 | 0:09:30 | |
about whether or not it is possible | 0:09:30 | 0:09:32 | |
to use the single act of Parliament | 0:09:32 | 0:09:34 | |
impinges on an action being taken against the Government | 0:09:34 | 0:09:36 | |
about the operation of Article 50. | 0:09:36 | 0:09:38 | |
I can talk about the issues relating | 0:09:38 | 0:09:40 | |
to the act of Parliament. | 0:09:40 | 0:09:42 | |
Let me do that here and now. | 0:09:42 | 0:09:45 | |
There are a number of ways you can put into effect such | 0:09:45 | 0:09:49 | |
an act of Parliament. | 0:09:49 | 0:09:59 | |
One of them is to | 0:09:59 | 0:10:03 | |
put everything in place at once. | 0:10:03 | 0:10:05 | |
It would be huge and to come back to you earlier position | 0:10:05 | 0:10:08 | |
about the timing on this, | 0:10:08 | 0:10:10 | |
it would have to wait until very late on in the process | 0:10:10 | 0:10:13 | |
because we would need to know what we were doing with each | 0:10:13 | 0:10:16 | |
components of the exit from the EU. | 0:10:16 | 0:10:20 | |
Even were it a simple exit with almost no amendments to it | 0:10:20 | 0:10:29 | |
and were we setting out in order to do all the changes letter on it | 0:10:29 | 0:10:38 | |
and were we setting out in order to do all the changes later | 0:10:38 | 0:10:43 | |
would still be complicated because, taking a trivial example, | 0:10:43 | 0:10:45 | |
when local government, under European law | 0:10:45 | 0:10:50 | |
they have to put the bid into the European system. | 0:10:50 | 0:10:53 | |
That would deal with all those tiny things | 0:10:53 | 0:10:55 | |
either directly or with a spectacular | 0:10:55 | 0:11:01 | |
Henry VIII clauses. | 0:11:01 | 0:11:02 | |
That is one aspect. | 0:11:02 | 0:11:03 | |
But you can do it rather more early | 0:11:03 | 0:11:06 | |
and have a whole series of successive pieces | 0:11:06 | 0:11:08 | |
of legislation, | 0:11:08 | 0:11:10 | |
so there is a problem, which you can see... | 0:11:10 | 0:11:14 | |
I am not sure I do. | 0:11:14 | 0:11:18 | |
My question was, how does the question you opposed | 0:11:18 | 0:11:21 | |
in my letter to the attorney excuse | 0:11:21 | 0:11:26 | |
the reason you gave for not... | 0:11:26 | 0:11:31 | |
No, your reason for not answering the question was that it impinged | 0:11:31 | 0:11:34 | |
on that and I don't understand the connection. | 0:11:34 | 0:11:37 | |
From memory, there was a reference to that, to Article 50, | 0:11:37 | 0:11:40 | |
was in there? | 0:11:40 | 0:11:40 | |
No. | 0:11:40 | 0:11:49 | |
It was could all the current causes relating to the UK | 0:11:49 | 0:11:52 | |
could be retained should Parliament wish that? | 0:11:52 | 0:11:54 | |
Your argument is this is currently the subject of legal proceedings... | 0:11:54 | 0:11:57 | |
That was an error because I thought | 0:11:57 | 0:11:59 | |
it was a reference to Article 50. | 0:11:59 | 0:12:01 | |
There was not. | 0:12:01 | 0:12:02 | |
I wonder if you could have another go in a letter to the committee | 0:12:02 | 0:12:06 | |
at answering that question. | 0:12:06 | 0:12:07 | |
Of course we can but we can also deal with the substantive issue | 0:12:07 | 0:12:14 | |
right here, which is the nature of the legislation we are likely | 0:12:14 | 0:12:17 | |
to carry through. | 0:12:17 | 0:12:18 | |
You can either have very simple legislation which meets your | 0:12:18 | 0:12:20 | |
requirements of going earlier... | 0:12:20 | 0:12:22 | |
What is the simplest? | 0:12:22 | 0:12:34 | |
I suppose the position is that is, you've got all this directly | 0:12:34 | 0:12:37 | |
applicable regulations not put through, so not in British law | 0:12:37 | 0:12:39 | |
at the minute, we will leave the European Union- | 0:12:39 | 0:12:42 | |
do we try to make a judgment about whether the 6987 regulations | 0:12:42 | 0:12:45 | |
that directly apply, that we go through them one by one | 0:12:45 | 0:12:49 | |
and decide which to keep on which to leave, when we leave, | 0:12:49 | 0:12:52 | |
or will we keep... | 0:12:52 | 0:12:54 | |
Put all of them into line take our time to go through and decide | 0:12:54 | 0:12:58 | |
which ones we don't want? | 0:12:58 | 0:13:00 | |
The decision we have to take is whether one has a simple piece | 0:13:00 | 0:13:04 | |
of legislation with a cascading set of SIs | 0:13:04 | 0:13:06 | |
following on from it and the House of Lords | 0:13:06 | 0:13:09 | |
famously does not like that, it does not like things | 0:13:09 | 0:13:13 | |
that create lots of statutory rights | 0:13:13 | 0:13:18 | |
for ministers rather than going through primary legislation... | 0:13:18 | 0:13:22 | |
Or you could do it with a small piece of upfront legislation | 0:13:22 | 0:13:26 | |
and then a mixture of primary and secondary, or you could do | 0:13:26 | 0:13:29 | |
a huge one that would need to be linked because you would need | 0:13:29 | 0:13:33 | |
to know what the changes were before you started. | 0:13:33 | 0:13:38 | |
Before you started the legislation. | 0:13:38 | 0:13:40 | |
Right. | 0:13:40 | 0:13:42 | |
It is... | 0:13:42 | 0:13:44 | |
No, I think what you have said in answer to the first question | 0:13:44 | 0:13:48 | |
is yes, which is obviously... | 0:13:48 | 0:13:49 | |
I am grateful for an answer. | 0:13:49 | 0:13:52 | |
Then there are options beyond that... | 0:13:52 | 0:13:54 | |
Let me be clear. | 0:13:54 | 0:13:55 | |
I do not want you to take this guidance from me. | 0:13:55 | 0:14:12 | |
My answer to question one was yes. | 0:14:12 | 0:14:14 | |
What was question one in this context? | 0:14:14 | 0:14:16 | |
Can all the directly applicable legislation is that | 0:14:16 | 0:14:19 | |
apply currently in the UK be translated | 0:14:19 | 0:14:20 | |
to the law. | 0:14:20 | 0:14:21 | |
Yes. | 0:14:21 | 0:14:22 | |
Am grateful for that. | 0:14:22 | 0:14:23 | |
The second question posted in the letter I posed. | 0:14:23 | 0:14:25 | |
Let me for the benefit of the record... | 0:14:25 | 0:14:31 | |
The second question I asked you. | 0:14:31 | 0:14:36 | |
On what terms will the UK and EU trade at the end of the two-year | 0:14:36 | 0:14:41 | |
negotiating period mandated by Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty, | 0:14:41 | 0:14:46 | |
if no deal has been agreed between the UK and EU on the terms | 0:14:46 | 0:14:51 | |
of the UK's exit from the EU, or no deal has been agreed | 0:14:51 | 0:14:54 | |
on the future relationship between the UK the EU? | 0:14:54 | 0:15:03 | |
What that posits is the rather obvious possibility that there | 0:15:03 | 0:15:06 | |
is either a blocking minority amongst the 27 who declined | 0:15:06 | 0:15:09 | |
to come to an agreement, or the European | 0:15:09 | 0:15:11 | |
Parliament who has a majority against whatever is negotiated | 0:15:11 | 0:15:16 | |
between you and the 27. | 0:15:16 | 0:15:20 | |
That strikes me as a rather obvious possibility. | 0:15:20 | 0:15:24 | |
The answer you gave to me and the committee was, | 0:15:24 | 0:15:30 | |
"Turning to trade, we are about to begin these | 0:15:30 | 0:15:32 | |
negotiations and it would be wrong to set out further unilateral | 0:15:32 | 0:15:35 | |
positions in advance." | 0:15:35 | 0:15:39 | |
"As the Prime Minister has said, the UK will strike a bespoke | 0:15:39 | 0:15:42 | |
agreement that gets the best deal for people at home and the right | 0:15:42 | 0:15:46 | |
deal for Britain abroad." | 0:15:46 | 0:15:49 | |
That is not in the gift of the Prime Minister, is it? | 0:15:49 | 0:15:53 | |
It will have to be an agreement between us and our 27 partners | 0:15:53 | 0:15:56 | |
endorsed by a majority of the European Parliament? | 0:15:56 | 0:16:00 | |
The Prime Minister cannot make that statement. | 0:16:00 | 0:16:11 | |
No, those are her aims. | 0:16:11 | 0:16:12 | |
Those are her aims, yes, but the fact is | 0:16:12 | 0:16:15 | |
she cannot guarantee it and neither can you. | 0:16:15 | 0:16:17 | |
Nobody can guarantee the negotiations. | 0:16:17 | 0:16:18 | |
The process we are about to embark on, there is no agreement. | 0:16:18 | 0:16:22 | |
That is... | 0:16:22 | 0:16:22 | |
That as a possible outcome. | 0:16:22 | 0:16:23 | |
One possible outcome. | 0:16:23 | 0:16:24 | |
But all I have done is asked you, or as the Attorney General, | 0:16:24 | 0:16:28 | |
and you were kind enough to send me a letter which... | 0:16:28 | 0:16:33 | |
Has not in my judgment entirely addressed the question, | 0:16:33 | 0:16:36 | |
shall I say? | 0:16:36 | 0:16:37 | |
That... | 0:16:37 | 0:16:39 | |
I think it is a rather straightforward | 0:16:39 | 0:16:41 | |
and simple question. | 0:16:41 | 0:16:43 | |
And I think there is a very important reason you should answer | 0:16:43 | 0:16:47 | |
it as soon as you are in a position to do so, | 0:16:47 | 0:16:51 | |
and that is it is a kind of technical question. | 0:16:51 | 0:16:54 | |
What happens if there is no agreement? | 0:16:54 | 0:16:56 | |
That then addresses a vast amount of the uncertainty that is out | 0:16:56 | 0:17:00 | |
there, for example, you know, in a memorandum | 0:17:00 | 0:17:02 | |
from the Japanese, for example. | 0:17:02 | 0:17:06 | |
People looking for certainties as to what happens. | 0:17:06 | 0:17:09 | |
If it is clear, if there is no agreement in the negotiation, | 0:17:09 | 0:17:12 | |
what the position is, then you address a vast amount | 0:17:12 | 0:17:15 | |
of the uncertainty out there with individual companies | 0:17:15 | 0:17:17 | |
and the rest, and they can then watch the negotiations | 0:17:17 | 0:17:20 | |
and make their commercial judgment according to | 0:17:20 | 0:17:22 | |
how they perceive them as going given whatever guidance | 0:17:22 | 0:17:26 | |
you will be able to get, | 0:17:26 | 0:17:29 | |
but then they will at least know how bad it can get | 0:17:29 | 0:17:33 | |
from their position, or how good it can get, | 0:17:33 | 0:17:36 | |
if there is no deal. | 0:17:36 | 0:17:37 | |
There may be an opportunity for them | 0:17:37 | 0:17:39 | |
if there is no deal, | 0:17:39 | 0:17:40 | |
but simply explaining what the technical position | 0:17:40 | 0:17:42 | |
is going to be, our terms of trade into the Single Market, | 0:17:42 | 0:17:45 | |
in those circumstances, that strikes me as firstly | 0:17:45 | 0:17:47 | |
answerable and indeed necessary to answer. | 0:17:47 | 0:17:50 | |
It depends what you are after. | 0:17:50 | 0:17:52 | |
If you want a factual statement of what the outcome could be, | 0:17:52 | 0:17:56 | |
I guess it is what is normally known as world trade | 0:17:56 | 0:17:59 | |
organisation rules, largely. | 0:17:59 | 0:18:03 | |
That is I guess what the conclusion would be | 0:18:03 | 0:18:05 | |
if we are outside with no deal, but I would not | 0:18:05 | 0:18:08 | |
anybody to think in my view that was a likely outcome. | 0:18:08 | 0:18:12 | |
I am not asking whether it is a likely outcome or inviting | 0:18:12 | 0:18:15 | |
you to put probability on it. | 0:18:15 | 0:18:21 | |
I am inviting us to get us tooks to an agreed understanding | 0:18:21 | 0:18:25 | |
it is World Trade Organisation rules that | 0:18:25 | 0:18:26 | |
will govern us into the Single Market... | 0:18:26 | 0:18:31 | |
I think that is a matter of commonly held fact. | 0:18:31 | 0:18:37 | |
That is all I was seeking to get the confirmation | 0:18:37 | 0:18:40 | |
of because there have been people suggesting there are complications | 0:18:40 | 0:18:43 | |
about putting the World Trade Organisation rules in position | 0:18:43 | 0:18:46 | |
and if you are telling this committee that is a matter | 0:18:46 | 0:18:50 | |
of commonly held fact, and it is a fact, then that gives | 0:18:50 | 0:18:53 | |
everybody a bottom-line from which to work all the... | 0:18:53 | 0:18:56 | |
And all the interests, which as you know is | 0:18:56 | 0:18:59 | |
a very large number... | 0:18:59 | 0:19:02 | |
Except, and this is one of the problems, we are dealing | 0:19:02 | 0:19:07 | |
with negotiations which as I said yesterday | 0:19:07 | 0:19:19 | |
are extremely complicated. | 0:19:19 | 0:19:20 | |
The World Trade Organisation rules essentially apply just as tariffs | 0:19:20 | 0:19:23 | |
but the nontariff barriers are one of the primary barriers. | 0:19:23 | 0:19:26 | |
It is a simple answer. | 0:19:26 | 0:19:27 | |
Of course there is a complacency about how the nontariff barriers | 0:19:27 | 0:19:30 | |
are operated on the rest. | 0:19:30 | 0:19:35 | |
But I think there is a very great need for as much clarification | 0:19:35 | 0:19:40 | |
of what can be reasonably clarified | 0:19:40 | 0:19:45 | |
and is part of the obvious bounds of which a negotiation | 0:19:45 | 0:19:48 | |
can take place and obviously one of those is no agreement, | 0:19:48 | 0:19:51 | |
for that to be clearly established and put out there. | 0:19:51 | 0:20:03 | |
You've gone very great deal further in answers | 0:20:03 | 0:20:05 | |
to me than you, | 0:20:05 | 0:20:06 | |
than the you probably signed off in some case this morning | 0:20:06 | 0:20:09 | |
when he realised it was outstanding. | 0:20:09 | 0:20:10 | |
It was not outstanding for me... | 0:20:10 | 0:20:12 | |
Yes, and the Attorney General has not done this to mind | 0:20:12 | 0:20:15 | |
and I appreciate that, and I am grateful... | 0:20:15 | 0:20:22 | |
No good deed ever goes unpunished. | 0:20:22 | 0:20:24 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:20:24 | 0:20:25 | |
I am very grateful for the detail you have now given. | 0:20:25 | 0:20:30 | |
One further question from me before moving on to Mr Gates. | 0:20:30 | 0:20:33 | |
Sorry, but who will you be negotiating with? | 0:20:33 | 0:20:40 | |
First off, the commission has appointed Mr Barnier, | 0:20:40 | 0:20:52 | |
the Parliament has appointed Mr Verhofstadt, | 0:20:52 | 0:21:15 | |
and I went to Dublin and spoke to Mr Flannigan, and... | 0:21:15 | 0:21:28 | |
My question is, in a sense, who are you | 0:21:28 | 0:21:34 | |
formally negotiating with? | 0:21:34 | 0:21:36 | |
We are formally negotiating with the council. | 0:21:36 | 0:21:39 | |
And... | 0:21:39 | 0:21:42 | |
There appears to be some dispute between the council. | 0:21:42 | 0:21:50 | |
If you will forgive me that is not for me to resolve. | 0:21:50 | 0:21:53 | |
We may return to the involvement of the European Parliament | 0:21:53 | 0:21:56 | |
later in questions. | 0:21:56 | 0:22:07 | |
I wanted a little bit more clarity on the question of the letter | 0:22:07 | 0:22:11 | |
when you see it is possible to have a position where we adopt | 0:22:11 | 0:22:14 | |
all the 6800 EU laws... | 0:22:14 | 0:22:16 | |
But I thought he then went on to say | 0:22:16 | 0:22:18 | |
that would be problematic and give the example of the local | 0:22:18 | 0:22:21 | |
authority having to publish all their European... | 0:22:21 | 0:22:23 | |
So it wouldn't be workable? | 0:22:23 | 0:22:25 | |
You have to deal with that by a series of follow-on | 0:22:25 | 0:22:28 | |
legislation, something like that- would through an SI, | 0:22:28 | 0:22:31 | |
and it would not be confirmed to just that. | 0:22:31 | 0:22:35 | |
It would not be confirmed to the sort of minor problems | 0:22:35 | 0:22:40 | |
like that - they would be substantive changes, | 0:22:40 | 0:22:43 | |
changes in immigration law, changes in a whole series | 0:22:43 | 0:22:46 | |
of matters currently to do with European Union, | 0:22:46 | 0:22:50 | |
some of which could be quite significant. | 0:22:50 | 0:22:54 | |
So the problem there is generating a lot of secondary legislation | 0:22:54 | 0:22:59 | |
and possibly some primary legislation. | 0:22:59 | 0:23:01 | |
It may not resolve the issue in the way your chairman | 0:23:01 | 0:23:04 | |
was saying earlier. | 0:23:04 | 0:23:05 | |
If there is not time to get it through, what happens? | 0:23:05 | 0:23:09 | |
That is why it is difficult. | 0:23:09 | 0:23:11 | |
And just on the timetable and of course I completely | 0:23:11 | 0:23:14 | |
understand you cannot give any committee a running commentary | 0:23:14 | 0:23:18 | |
on negotiations or positions the Government would take, | 0:23:18 | 0:23:22 | |
but could you at least see when you expect the Government | 0:23:22 | 0:23:26 | |
to agree a clear set of objectives for Brexit negotiation. | 0:23:26 | 0:23:31 | |
Do you have a target? | 0:23:31 | 0:23:34 | |
That is one of them and probably the primary one | 0:23:34 | 0:23:37 | |
is the Prime Minister has said we will not trigger Article 50 | 0:23:37 | 0:23:41 | |
is the Prime Minister has said we will not trigger Article 50 | 0:23:41 | 0:23:44 | |
until sometime in the New Year, after the end of this year. | 0:23:44 | 0:23:48 | |
Because we are going through that process as it stands, | 0:23:48 | 0:23:52 | |
and I can talk you through that if you want to hear it. | 0:23:52 | 0:23:56 | |
Assessing, negotiating aims, negotiate and tactics, | 0:23:56 | 0:23:58 | |
the legalities, the very things we have been speaking about, | 0:23:58 | 0:24:01 | |
the legalities of Article 50, and all those things really have | 0:24:01 | 0:24:04 | |
to be fairly clear before you start, | 0:24:04 | 0:24:09 | |
so we will arrive at that something in the New Year. | 0:24:09 | 0:24:13 | |
So you will have all of your objectives in place sometime | 0:24:13 | 0:24:16 | |
in the New Year, so by January? | 0:24:16 | 0:24:21 | |
I will not guess on that, with the best will in the world. | 0:24:21 | 0:24:25 | |
I have said before I would rather go one month late | 0:24:25 | 0:24:28 | |
and get it right and go a month early | 0:24:28 | 0:24:30 | |
and get it wrong. | 0:24:30 | 0:24:31 | |
That has slightly flipped the phrase | 0:24:31 | 0:24:33 | |
but it characterises it. | 0:24:33 | 0:24:34 | |
But early in the New Year? | 0:24:34 | 0:24:36 | |
Your target? | 0:24:36 | 0:24:45 | |
The Prime Minister certainly one very public comment and one | 0:24:45 | 0:24:47 | |
that was implicit I figured what she said. | 0:24:47 | 0:24:49 | |
Firstly, it will not be this year. | 0:24:49 | 0:24:51 | |
Secondly, she knows that British people expect us to be | 0:24:51 | 0:24:54 | |
expeditious about it. | 0:24:54 | 0:24:55 | |
After reaching that position when will the Government set | 0:24:55 | 0:24:57 | |
out your objectives or will you not | 0:24:57 | 0:25:00 | |
set them out at all? | 0:25:00 | 0:25:03 | |
We will certainly set out some objectives, | 0:25:03 | 0:25:06 | |
the level of detail of the game is another matter but the overall | 0:25:06 | 0:25:18 | |
Is | 0:25:18 | 0:25:18 | |
Is that | 0:25:18 | 0:25:19 | |
aim will be set out clearly. | 0:25:19 | 0:25:29 | |
Apart from anything else, you have got Parliament is having | 0:25:29 | 0:25:32 | |
an interest in its and as I said yesterday to the Lords committee | 0:25:32 | 0:25:35 | |
we will meet that as far as we can without jeopardising | 0:25:35 | 0:25:38 | |
the overall aim. | 0:25:38 | 0:25:39 | |
Also, we have, when rewriter Donald Tusk under Article 50 | 0:25:39 | 0:25:42 | |
we will write a letter and a sum that would include a statement | 0:25:42 | 0:25:46 | |
of our aims. | 0:25:46 | 0:25:46 | |
So that would be early in the New Year? | 0:25:46 | 0:25:49 | |
I will not be drawn on dates. | 0:25:49 | 0:25:54 | |
You said you would hold roundtable debates with stakeholders. | 0:25:54 | 0:26:02 | |
Can you explain in more detail how the process will actually work? | 0:26:02 | 0:26:09 | |
Will you publish open calls for evidence or contributions | 0:26:09 | 0:26:11 | |
from stakeholders will you and other departments | 0:26:11 | 0:26:13 | |
select those who you wish to hear from? | 0:26:13 | 0:26:22 | |
A bit of both. | 0:26:22 | 0:26:23 | |
Some of it is self-selecting because anybody who is concerned | 0:26:23 | 0:26:26 | |
about their own industry will be wanting to have a round table so, | 0:26:26 | 0:26:30 | |
for example, last week a city group | 0:26:30 | 0:26:32 | |
had a roundtable chair by the Chancellor. | 0:26:32 | 0:26:41 | |
I have one other retail this week. | 0:26:41 | 0:26:55 | |
I have set in the house I saw the TUC, | 0:26:55 | 0:26:57 | |
they were the first people I saw. | 0:26:57 | 0:27:02 | |
The fishermen's organisations, you name it. | 0:27:02 | 0:27:07 | |
The whole series where we think it is at issue | 0:27:07 | 0:27:10 | |
and people who are concerned. | 0:27:10 | 0:27:13 | |
And that is how you ensure it is wide-ranging and representative? | 0:27:13 | 0:27:17 | |
Bear in mind... | 0:27:17 | 0:27:18 | |
Sorry, I left out the section. | 0:27:18 | 0:27:21 | |
Also bear in mind is we put to one side the devolved administrations | 0:27:21 | 0:27:27 | |
because they have got a separate set | 0:27:27 | 0:27:29 | |
of almost parallel operations going on, | 0:27:29 | 0:27:33 | |
but every single department is it's also been asked, | 0:27:33 | 0:27:37 | |
was passed at the beginning of the summer. | 0:27:37 | 0:27:41 | |
Coming back with their primary concerns and their client group. | 0:27:41 | 0:27:50 | |
That is also happening. | 0:27:50 | 0:27:53 | |
I cannot think of any other way of making any | 0:27:53 | 0:27:56 | |
more exhaustive comments. | 0:27:56 | 0:27:57 | |
And the Department is suitably resourced for this? | 0:27:57 | 0:28:07 | |
More of the resources in the department that with us. | 0:28:07 | 0:28:16 | |
My department is quite small but has expanded rapidly | 0:28:16 | 0:28:19 | |
in the past month but is still only around 200 people. | 0:28:19 | 0:28:28 | |
What we are doing, the strategy we are taking is having a small | 0:28:28 | 0:28:31 | |
number of very high calibre civil servants of each of the main | 0:28:31 | 0:28:36 | |
departments, not trying to replicate | 0:28:36 | 0:28:38 | |
the entire policy went off, let's say, the Home Office. | 0:28:38 | 0:28:41 | |
That makes it work better, more effective, we not duplicating, | 0:28:41 | 0:28:46 | |
there are no turf wars and it is a better way of doing it. | 0:28:46 | 0:28:53 | |
How will it work when you start negotiating? | 0:28:53 | 0:28:57 | |
You are missing out this step. | 0:28:57 | 0:29:00 | |
The step between now and then, the negotiations starting, | 0:29:00 | 0:29:04 | |
will involve a degree of assessments | 0:29:04 | 0:29:06 | |
of the size of the problem. | 0:29:06 | 0:29:13 | |
For example, somebody has said that the nontariff barriers | 0:29:13 | 0:29:18 | |
are better than tariff barriers and they have cited various ways | 0:29:18 | 0:29:26 | |
are bigger than tariff barriers and they have cited various ways | 0:29:26 | 0:29:29 | |
so we will do a quantification of natural before we start | 0:29:29 | 0:29:32 | |
negotiating we will have an idea of what is big or small | 0:29:32 | 0:29:35 | |
and what matters and what does not. | 0:29:35 | 0:29:37 | |
We will not necessarily publish all that because that is a gift | 0:29:37 | 0:29:40 | |
to the other side that we will know it. | 0:29:40 | 0:29:43 | |
Welcome, secretary of state. | 0:29:46 | 0:29:47 | |
These are complex negotiations at you do not want to compromise | 0:29:47 | 0:29:50 | |
your position, but many of us believe if access to the single | 0:29:50 | 0:29:56 | |
market cannot be gains on terms reasonable to both sides then | 0:29:56 | 0:30:04 | |
market cannot be gained on terms reasonable to both sides then | 0:30:04 | 0:30:07 | |
certainly for those goods subject to tariffs we should not be afraid | 0:30:07 | 0:30:10 | |
to fall back on the WTO rules. | 0:30:10 | 0:30:12 | |
Is there any reason we should not do that? | 0:30:12 | 0:30:16 | |
I will not commit to any particular strategy at the moment, | 0:30:16 | 0:30:20 | |
for obvious reasons. | 0:30:20 | 0:30:24 | |
Firstly, let me offer a philosophical approach. | 0:30:24 | 0:30:31 | |
I think it is a bad idea to go into negotiation | 0:30:31 | 0:30:34 | |
fearing any outcomes. | 0:30:34 | 0:30:35 | |
Because that weakens you in one respect of another. | 0:30:35 | 0:30:41 | |
Speaking about the calculations that | 0:30:41 | 0:30:45 | |
will go on and we will assess not just | 0:30:45 | 0:30:48 | |
what the costs of a given strategy is but also | 0:30:48 | 0:30:51 | |
what the policies that go with it. | 0:30:51 | 0:31:00 | |
So, people might say it will cost this or that, | 0:31:00 | 0:31:04 | |
they have not necessarily taken on board how we might | 0:31:04 | 0:31:06 | |
mitigate costs. | 0:31:06 | 0:31:08 | |
I see nothing to fear in any outcome. | 0:31:08 | 0:31:11 | |
On immigration, mainly in the EU Commission the early suggestions | 0:31:11 | 0:31:15 | |
are linking immigration or free movement with trade negotiations. | 0:31:15 | 0:31:22 | |
Many of those who voted to leave, one of the key reasons was we had | 0:31:22 | 0:31:26 | |
a immigration system discriminatory against the rest of the world | 0:31:26 | 0:31:30 | |
outside the EU and what was wanted was fairness, | 0:31:30 | 0:31:35 | |
whatever the criteria that will guide the policy | 0:31:35 | 0:31:37 | |
going forward it must be fair | 0:31:37 | 0:31:41 | |
so that is the discrimination. | 0:31:41 | 0:31:50 | |
so that there is no discrimination. | 0:31:50 | 0:31:54 | |
Is that the sense of the position within the Government, | 0:31:54 | 0:31:57 | |
as you see it? | 0:31:57 | 0:31:58 | |
My job is to get those powers back, | 0:31:58 | 0:32:05 | |
respect the will of the British people which I tend to think of... | 0:32:05 | 0:32:09 | |
To respect that as much as we can in negotiations. | 0:32:09 | 0:32:17 | |
When we get it back it is only Home Office to make decisions | 0:32:17 | 0:32:20 | |
on how to use that power. | 0:32:20 | 0:32:24 | |
Whilst I have sympathy with your description of it, | 0:32:24 | 0:32:31 | |
it is not me who the decision. | 0:32:31 | 0:32:33 | |
The decision on how we decide on the final policy. | 0:32:33 | 0:32:36 | |
Final question. | 0:32:36 | 0:32:39 | |
The certainty of that position is if you endear to the principle | 0:32:39 | 0:32:42 | |
of fairness, whatever the criteria used, essentially adhere | 0:32:42 | 0:32:44 | |
to the principle there will be no discrimination, | 0:32:44 | 0:32:48 | |
you effectively divorce immigration | 0:32:48 | 0:32:51 | |
and free movement from the trade negotiations | 0:32:51 | 0:32:55 | |
because you can offer nothing special to the EU as such. | 0:32:55 | 0:33:01 | |
You need to explain that begin to me. | 0:33:01 | 0:33:04 | |
The subtlety of the principle of fairness is not only | 0:33:04 | 0:33:06 | |
that it is right, in that you will not discriminate | 0:33:06 | 0:33:11 | |
against one region of the world against another, but in pursuing | 0:33:11 | 0:33:15 | |
the principle of fairness you actually divorce in effect | 0:33:15 | 0:33:19 | |
immigration and free movement of labour from trade negotiations. | 0:33:19 | 0:33:24 | |
I did actually understand that the first time. | 0:33:24 | 0:33:31 | |
For obvious reasons I will not be drawn on it. | 0:33:31 | 0:33:45 | |
Can you not say anything? | 0:33:45 | 0:33:46 | |
Can I pressure on this? | 0:33:46 | 0:33:48 | |
It is a key plank of the campaign. | 0:33:48 | 0:33:50 | |
The Prime Minister made it plain the current system cannot be | 0:33:50 | 0:33:53 | |
allowed to stand. | 0:33:53 | 0:33:54 | |
She said we will not have free movement as it now is. | 0:33:54 | 0:33:57 | |
She talked about control borders so I do not think there is | 0:33:57 | 0:34:00 | |
any doubt about the priority that is on this | 0:34:00 | 0:34:03 | |
and I do not think our European partners would doubt that either. | 0:34:03 | 0:34:06 | |
And some of them have commented publicly in disagreement with her, | 0:34:06 | 0:34:09 | |
for example, the Irish head commented over the weekends | 0:34:09 | 0:34:13 | |
disagreeing with us but it is plain | 0:34:13 | 0:34:16 | |
this is a priority. | 0:34:16 | 0:34:25 | |
You mentioned you have a meeting with the TUC, | 0:34:25 | 0:34:27 | |
which is very welcome and unusual for the Government | 0:34:27 | 0:34:32 | |
in recent years to have such an early meetings with | 0:34:32 | 0:34:35 | |
ministers and the TUC. | 0:34:35 | 0:34:39 | |
You previously... | 0:34:39 | 0:34:46 | |
I do have form on this. | 0:34:46 | 0:34:48 | |
Perhaps then you can answer the question that you previously | 0:34:48 | 0:34:50 | |
said workers should not lose their rights as a result of Brexit. | 0:34:50 | 0:34:56 | |
Is that your personal view or is that because the view | 0:34:56 | 0:34:59 | |
of the Government? | 0:34:59 | 0:35:00 | |
It is a personal view but I have not | 0:35:00 | 0:35:03 | |
been disagreed with. | 0:35:03 | 0:35:04 | |
So there has been no discussion in Government yet about an erosion | 0:35:04 | 0:35:07 | |
of workers' writes? | 0:35:07 | 0:35:13 | |
of workers' rights? | 0:35:13 | 0:35:15 | |
Not on that specific issue and what I have said two other | 0:35:15 | 0:35:21 | |
Not on that specific issue and what I have said to other | 0:35:21 | 0:35:24 | |
members of the committee is we will not get drawn | 0:35:24 | 0:35:27 | |
into the policy elements of this. | 0:35:27 | 0:35:28 | |
Because it has implications that would... | 0:35:28 | 0:35:32 | |
To put it another way, if you lay a red lines | 0:35:32 | 0:35:36 | |
you are negotiating opponent does is head straight for that line | 0:35:36 | 0:35:39 | |
and use it against you. | 0:35:39 | 0:35:43 | |
I do not propose to elaborate but the comment stands. | 0:35:43 | 0:35:53 | |
Yesterday you told the Lords Select Committee | 0:35:53 | 0:35:56 | |
you will ask businesses to give you a quantitative | 0:35:56 | 0:36:00 | |
assessment of theimpacts of various scenarios | 0:36:00 | 0:36:03 | |
on their sectors. | 0:36:03 | 0:36:08 | |
How are you going to assess that data, the validity of that paper? | 0:36:08 | 0:36:15 | |
I was talking to Lord Green and what I said | 0:36:15 | 0:36:19 | |
what we would carry out these assessments and some | 0:36:19 | 0:36:22 | |
of the information will, | 0:36:22 | 0:36:29 | |
come that but the same way you test any data | 0:36:29 | 0:36:32 | |
given to you, you look at how it is calculated. | 0:36:32 | 0:36:36 | |
Will the businesses carry out or will you. | 0:36:36 | 0:36:38 | |
We will carry out some of our own. | 0:36:38 | 0:36:41 | |
Earlier I sighted people comparing effect of tariff and nontariff | 0:36:41 | 0:36:43 | |
barriers on how you set it. | 0:36:43 | 0:37:01 | |
You said your department does not date have the capacity says | 0:37:01 | 0:37:11 | |
You said your department does not date have the capacity to access | 0:37:11 | 0:37:15 | |
When do you expect to have that capacity? | 0:37:15 | 0:37:22 | |
Before we need it but the sequence of events | 0:37:22 | 0:37:24 | |
is like this, at the moment we are doing the round tables | 0:37:24 | 0:37:28 | |
and bilateral discussions. | 0:37:28 | 0:37:28 | |
We will then asked for data and submissions from them, | 0:37:28 | 0:37:31 | |
we will then begin assessment. | 0:37:31 | 0:37:33 | |
That is a little while away but I suspect the department | 0:37:33 | 0:37:35 | |
will double again in size. | 0:37:35 | 0:37:38 | |
Will that be before or after Article 50's triggered? | 0:37:38 | 0:37:40 | |
Before. | 0:37:40 | 0:37:46 | |
You will not trigger Article 50 until your department | 0:37:46 | 0:37:49 | |
is at capacity to carry out the functions. | 0:37:49 | 0:37:51 | |
To carry out those functions. | 0:37:51 | 0:37:52 | |
That is self evident, I would have thought. | 0:37:52 | 0:37:54 | |
And will you be drawing on the competencies | 0:37:54 | 0:37:56 | |
and documentation produced by ministers before the referendum, | 0:37:56 | 0:38:03 | |
the whole process went through when William Hague | 0:38:03 | 0:38:06 | |
was Foreign Secretary. | 0:38:06 | 0:38:10 | |
Most of this is a new process. | 0:38:10 | 0:38:16 | |
I think when the committee... | 0:38:16 | 0:38:19 | |
It is a very big process and there is a lot of work | 0:38:19 | 0:38:23 | |
going on and pretty much every department is involved | 0:38:23 | 0:38:25 | |
and they will be doing a fair amount of analysis | 0:38:25 | 0:38:28 | |
themselves and then challenging it. | 0:38:28 | 0:38:32 | |
Final question. | 0:38:32 | 0:38:35 | |
Given the clear reluctance you have two states | 0:38:35 | 0:38:41 | |
what you're negotiating position is going to be and not give | 0:38:41 | 0:38:47 | |
answers today or yesterday, | 0:38:47 | 0:38:49 | |
how long do you think you can sustain this position? | 0:38:49 | 0:38:57 | |
Isn't the reality that it will become politically impossible | 0:38:57 | 0:39:00 | |
domestic calling, not just internationally and are | 0:39:00 | 0:39:06 | |
therefore it might be better that the Prime Minister | 0:39:06 | 0:39:08 | |
and her new team actually got a mandate from the British | 0:39:08 | 0:39:11 | |
people before they trigger Article 50? | 0:39:11 | 0:39:16 | |
An early general election before article 50. | 0:39:16 | 0:39:21 | |
I am tempted to say that is above my pay grade | 0:39:21 | 0:39:29 | |
but it puts the rest of your questioning in context. | 0:39:29 | 0:39:32 | |
My questions are the kinds of questions people want answers | 0:39:32 | 0:39:36 | |
to your job is to answer them. | 0:39:36 | 0:39:41 | |
My job is to make decisions on behalf of the people. | 0:39:41 | 0:39:44 | |
We have a mandate like no other. | 0:39:44 | 0:39:49 | |
It is our job to deliver on that mandate and our job to do it as best | 0:39:49 | 0:39:54 | |
we can which means carrying out the negotiation in an intelligent | 0:39:54 | 0:39:59 | |
way, making the decisions on the basis of the data we collect, | 0:39:59 | 0:40:02 | |
analyse and make a decision on that basis, not the other way round. | 0:40:02 | 0:40:07 | |
It may be your approach to save because we are asking | 0:40:07 | 0:40:10 | |
the question you must tell us the answer before you have out | 0:40:10 | 0:40:13 | |
but that seems daft, to me. | 0:40:13 | 0:40:16 | |
You have not worked out the answers to any of these questions yet? | 0:40:16 | 0:40:20 | |
We have worked out some answers but not to the questions you have | 0:40:20 | 0:40:24 | |
asked and we have a major exercise under way and we will look at every | 0:40:24 | 0:40:28 | |
single sector industry, every single department of state has | 0:40:28 | 0:40:33 | |
got the workloads on less and they will come to intelligent | 0:40:33 | 0:40:36 | |
conclusions and that will drive the outcome, | 0:40:36 | 0:40:40 | |
empirical outcome to this process, not politically driven answers | 0:40:40 | 0:40:44 | |
but allowing you to say should we have an election. | 0:40:44 | 0:40:49 | |
I think these questions have established the level | 0:40:49 | 0:40:52 | |
of negligence... | 0:40:52 | 0:41:05 | |
Not above my pay grade... | 0:41:05 | 0:41:08 | |
Yes, not responsible to, Secretary State. | 0:41:08 | 0:41:21 | |
Good to see you back in Government, Mr Davies. | 0:41:21 | 0:41:24 | |
We are clear on the accentuation of the fact that was preparatory | 0:41:24 | 0:41:27 | |
work on the situation post Brexit, and it has clearly been indicated | 0:41:27 | 0:41:30 | |
the ball is in our court for triggering this. | 0:41:30 | 0:41:34 | |
Can I ask you, bearing in mind we have up to two years for this | 0:41:34 | 0:41:38 | |
renegotiation process, what are the delays in invoking | 0:41:38 | 0:41:45 | |
Article 50? | 0:41:45 | 0:41:46 | |
The primary delay is doing the necessary preparations. | 0:41:46 | 0:41:55 | |
It would be quite difficult for any government to do the level | 0:41:55 | 0:41:58 | |
of analysis we are undertaking now. | 0:41:58 | 0:42:00 | |
It is enormous. | 0:42:00 | 0:42:04 | |
As I say, every department is involved in it, pretty much. | 0:42:04 | 0:42:07 | |
That is the first thing. | 0:42:07 | 0:42:10 | |
It is time consuming, it simply is time-consuming, | 0:42:10 | 0:42:12 | |
first to collect the data, to establish the nature of the... | 0:42:12 | 0:42:15 | |
Let me give you another example. | 0:42:15 | 0:42:20 | |
The City of London, there has been a lot of concern about passports | 0:42:20 | 0:42:24 | |
and so on, and some companies have raised issues about this. | 0:42:24 | 0:42:28 | |
Some companies care about it and some do not. | 0:42:28 | 0:42:31 | |
We need to understand why some care and some don't | 0:42:31 | 0:42:33 | |
and what the differences are, we need to understand | 0:42:33 | 0:42:36 | |
whether there needs to be a policy as do it or can be fixed | 0:42:36 | 0:42:40 | |
the problems themselves with brass plates around the place and so on? | 0:42:40 | 0:42:43 | |
There are a whole series of issues and that is just one sector. | 0:42:43 | 0:42:49 | |
And the ecosystem is not an industry which fits together like a complex | 0:42:49 | 0:43:02 | |
tower as many as are of the opinion, say 'aye'. | 0:43:02 | 0:43:06 | |
To the contrary, 'no'. | 0:43:06 | 0:43:09 | |
Together like a complex jenga tower. | 0:43:09 | 0:43:11 | |
The only way to do this responsibly is to do the analysis first, | 0:43:11 | 0:43:14 | |
and clearly work out what the National priorities are, | 0:43:14 | 0:43:17 | |
on the basis of that, then designed a negotiating | 0:43:17 | 0:43:20 | |
strategy around that. | 0:43:20 | 0:43:23 | |
That is why it takes time and I make no bones about it. | 0:43:23 | 0:43:26 | |
I think the British people want us to do this properly, | 0:43:26 | 0:43:29 | |
not necessarily incredibly fast. | 0:43:29 | 0:43:34 | |
I understand obviously there is a huge amount of work to be | 0:43:34 | 0:43:37 | |
done, analytical work, and we want to be ready for those | 0:43:37 | 0:43:40 | |
negotiations with all the facts at our disposal. | 0:43:40 | 0:43:44 | |
It is not an issue, though, however, on lack of resources | 0:43:44 | 0:43:47 | |
for your department, is it? | 0:43:47 | 0:43:49 | |
Do you have sufficient resources? | 0:43:49 | 0:43:51 | |
There is a time constraint in the sense that the department has | 0:43:51 | 0:43:54 | |
come from scratch. | 0:43:54 | 0:43:57 | |
It did not exist two months ago, a little over two months ago. | 0:43:57 | 0:44:01 | |
Most people around this table, you know what Whitehall | 0:44:01 | 0:44:03 | |
is like in August. | 0:44:03 | 0:44:05 | |
The recruitment process is not a straightforward | 0:44:05 | 0:44:07 | |
as you might think. | 0:44:07 | 0:44:09 | |
So it has taken time. | 0:44:09 | 0:44:11 | |
There is no way round it. | 0:44:11 | 0:44:13 | |
It is not a shortage of money resource. | 0:44:13 | 0:44:16 | |
It is just a question of establishing the organisation | 0:44:16 | 0:44:18 | |
in place. | 0:44:18 | 0:44:20 | |
As I said to the Lords' committee yesterday, | 0:44:20 | 0:44:26 | |
at the moment it is mostly civil servants, in fact entirely civil | 0:44:26 | 0:44:32 | |
servants, and they are all quite young, smart people, | 0:44:32 | 0:44:34 | |
but they do not have experience in the City, | 0:44:34 | 0:44:36 | |
in industry, in various other areas, and the next phase is to bring | 0:44:36 | 0:44:41 | |
in some grey hair to bring in that experience. | 0:44:41 | 0:44:46 | |
It is not resources in the sense of money. | 0:44:46 | 0:44:55 | |
There is no problem with that. | 0:44:55 | 0:44:57 | |
our European partners have been I think very understanding, | 0:44:57 | 0:44:59 | |
certainly in public, about our delay. | 0:44:59 | 0:45:03 | |
Obviously they are keen for us to invoke it as quickly as possible. | 0:45:03 | 0:45:08 | |
Do you envisage a time when they will start to say publicly | 0:45:08 | 0:45:11 | |
that they are concerned about the delay? | 0:45:11 | 0:45:16 | |
Have you had any discussions with them about that? | 0:45:16 | 0:45:19 | |
I think I am right... | 0:45:19 | 0:45:21 | |
What the Prime Minister has been saying, and it may well have come up | 0:45:21 | 0:45:25 | |
in those discussions, but I don't think it is material. | 0:45:25 | 0:45:28 | |
The French government have been saying they wanted | 0:45:28 | 0:45:30 | |
to be precipitated soon. | 0:45:30 | 0:45:34 | |
I think one or two members of the Commission, | 0:45:34 | 0:45:39 | |
Mr Jean-Claude Juncker, he has said he would like to be | 0:45:39 | 0:45:42 | |
soon, but, you know, they are the other side | 0:45:42 | 0:45:44 | |
of this negotiation. | 0:45:44 | 0:45:45 | |
We will not necessarily do everything they say when they want | 0:45:45 | 0:45:48 | |
us to do it. | 0:45:48 | 0:45:51 | |
The counter to this is that they need some time as well. | 0:45:51 | 0:45:56 | |
For example, to give you the parallel to this, | 0:45:56 | 0:45:59 | |
my opposite number within the commission if you like, | 0:45:59 | 0:46:04 | |
Michel Barnier, is just at the moment about to establish his | 0:46:04 | 0:46:08 | |
own Department of 25 people, not 200 or 400, but 25 for this | 0:46:08 | 0:46:12 | |
instance so he can do his analysis, and they will need to work out | 0:46:12 | 0:46:16 | |
for themselves what the consequences of our negotiating request questions | 0:46:16 | 0:46:19 | |
are and they are also starting a process I do not think | 0:46:19 | 0:46:22 | |
it is wasted time. | 0:46:22 | 0:46:29 | |
OK, thank you. | 0:46:29 | 0:46:34 | |
I can say I am familiar with some of the young talent supporting | 0:46:34 | 0:46:41 | |
you in this role, obviously which iss some of which I am aware | 0:46:41 | 0:46:44 | |
of as a minister. | 0:46:44 | 0:46:45 | |
But speaking about grey hair, has approved rather more difficult | 0:46:45 | 0:46:48 | |
to find experienced servants to come and join your department? | 0:46:48 | 0:46:59 | |
You say experienced civil servants... | 0:46:59 | 0:47:00 | |
And others... | 0:47:00 | 0:47:05 | |
Outsiders? | 0:47:05 | 0:47:06 | |
Yes. | 0:47:06 | 0:47:07 | |
This morning we had on offer, and I probably should not mean | 0:47:07 | 0:47:10 | |
the company, but we had an offer of three senior partners from a very | 0:47:10 | 0:47:14 | |
major law firm in this area, so we have had other offers as well. | 0:47:14 | 0:47:18 | |
So no, there is not a shortage of interest in getting involved. | 0:47:18 | 0:47:21 | |
For many of the companies in the City, indeed, | 0:47:21 | 0:47:24 | |
in business in Britain, there are strong interests, | 0:47:24 | 0:47:29 | |
shall we say? | 0:47:29 | 0:47:31 | |
In providing us with good calibre people when they can. | 0:47:31 | 0:47:34 | |
Some of the interest groups, not companies, | 0:47:34 | 0:47:37 | |
are doing their own analyses as well, which we will incorporate | 0:47:37 | 0:47:40 | |
and draw on as well. | 0:47:40 | 0:47:45 | |
I wouldn't worry... | 0:47:45 | 0:47:48 | |
I mean, I will tell the committee if I run into a constraint on this | 0:47:48 | 0:47:52 | |
and I'm very happy to do so, but I am not at the moment | 0:47:52 | 0:47:56 | |
concerned about that. | 0:47:56 | 0:47:57 | |
There is a natural limitation on how long it takes to set | 0:47:57 | 0:48:00 | |
up an organisation. | 0:48:00 | 0:48:01 | |
I am setting up a battalion from scratch, basically. | 0:48:01 | 0:48:04 | |
To put it in words you would be familiar with. | 0:48:04 | 0:48:07 | |
You know, I am the recruiting Sergeant... | 0:48:07 | 0:48:11 | |
Well, actually, it might be a battalion! | 0:48:11 | 0:48:13 | |
We will see what we get. | 0:48:13 | 0:48:15 | |
It will be as big as it needs to be. | 0:48:15 | 0:48:19 | |
Good afternoon, Secretary of State. | 0:48:19 | 0:48:23 | |
The people voted to leave the European Union. | 0:48:23 | 0:48:27 | |
They expect us to leave the European Union. | 0:48:27 | 0:48:31 | |
And we understand that it takes time to get these things right before | 0:48:31 | 0:48:35 | |
we can actually do it. | 0:48:35 | 0:48:36 | |
But in the meantime can you reassure the public, | 0:48:36 | 0:48:40 | |
can you take actions, even small symbolic actions, | 0:48:40 | 0:48:43 | |
to indicate that the Government is absolutely serious, | 0:48:43 | 0:48:47 | |
deadly serious, about doing this, because there are jitters | 0:48:47 | 0:48:50 | |
and there are people worried that this is not actually | 0:48:50 | 0:48:53 | |
going to happen in the way they thought? | 0:48:53 | 0:48:58 | |
Well, at the beginning of the summer, the Chancellor | 0:48:58 | 0:49:00 | |
carried out the statement that we would underpin spending, | 0:49:00 | 0:49:08 | |
structural funds, CEP funds and so on. | 0:49:08 | 0:49:11 | |
If you wanted signal we wanted to reduce the jitters and say, | 0:49:11 | 0:49:16 | |
we are definitely doing this, that was one CAP. | 0:49:16 | 0:49:23 | |
That was one decision. | 0:49:23 | 0:49:29 | |
Those argument is notwithstanding the be made over again. | 0:49:29 | 0:49:37 | |
Those arguments notwithstanding the be made over again. | 0:49:37 | 0:49:39 | |
There was a debate I think in Westminster Hall last, | 0:49:39 | 0:49:43 | |
in fact last Monday, on whether there should be | 0:49:43 | 0:49:45 | |
a second referendum. | 0:49:45 | 0:49:47 | |
The Prime Minister has said time and time again, | 0:49:47 | 0:49:50 | |
you know, no second referendum, no reversals, nor avoidance. | 0:49:50 | 0:49:54 | |
We are leaving the European Union. | 0:49:54 | 0:49:58 | |
As a transition between now and when we leave | 0:49:58 | 0:50:01 | |
the European Union, is there a possibility | 0:50:01 | 0:50:07 | |
that we could look at EFTA is a way of continuing the existing trade | 0:50:07 | 0:50:11 | |
relations and leaving the European Union much earlier | 0:50:11 | 0:50:14 | |
by actually having that kind of transition? | 0:50:14 | 0:50:24 | |
No, I don't think so. | 0:50:24 | 0:50:26 | |
I don't want to get into it and I will not get | 0:50:26 | 0:50:29 | |
into what arrangement we end up with when we leave. | 0:50:29 | 0:50:34 | |
There are people who argue that as an outcome. | 0:50:34 | 0:50:37 | |
There are others who argue instant departure, so I will not get | 0:50:37 | 0:50:41 | |
into that but, no, I think this is the case. | 0:50:41 | 0:50:47 | |
The strategy of the Government is to depart the Union at the end | 0:50:47 | 0:50:51 | |
of the Article 50 process. | 0:50:51 | 0:50:52 | |
Up until then, the Government will absolutely obey | 0:50:52 | 0:51:03 | |
the European Union law and will be a good European Union citizen, | 0:51:03 | 0:51:09 | |
that is the approach we are taking and we think | 0:51:09 | 0:51:13 | |
that is the approach we are taking and we think it is the best approach | 0:51:13 | 0:51:17 | |
in terms of our responsibilities | 0:51:17 | 0:51:18 | |
and also we think it is the best negotiating approach. | 0:51:18 | 0:51:21 | |
We will not walk away from our responsible days. | 0:51:21 | 0:51:25 | |
We will take a stronger stance on European matters on defence, | 0:51:25 | 0:51:27 | |
security and a whole series of other things. | 0:51:27 | 0:51:30 | |
This is a bit of an indicator. | 0:51:30 | 0:51:32 | |
But whether there are things we can do that would be legally OK to do, | 0:51:32 | 0:51:45 | |
that show we are symbolically... | 0:51:45 | 0:51:47 | |
One example is new passports that will be issued from now on will go | 0:51:47 | 0:51:51 | |
back to the traditional blue British passport rather than the pink things | 0:51:51 | 0:51:54 | |
we have been using. | 0:51:54 | 0:51:56 | |
You would need to ask the Home Secretary... | 0:51:56 | 0:51:58 | |
Could we have symbolic gestures such as that to show the British people | 0:51:58 | 0:52:02 | |
we are absolutely serious about leaving the EU? | 0:52:02 | 0:52:06 | |
Attractive as the idea is, we're not in the business, | 0:52:06 | 0:52:10 | |
or at least I am not in the business, of symbolism. | 0:52:10 | 0:52:13 | |
I am in the business of delivering on this, | 0:52:13 | 0:52:16 | |
and that is the point. | 0:52:16 | 0:52:18 | |
On that very point of delivering, in your deliberations | 0:52:18 | 0:52:21 | |
and negotiations and discussions about Britain's future, | 0:52:21 | 0:52:23 | |
the United Kingdom's future, with the EU, what assurance can | 0:52:23 | 0:52:27 | |
you give your taking into account the interests of Gibraltar | 0:52:27 | 0:52:34 | |
and the British Overseas Territories and Crown dependencies, | 0:52:34 | 0:52:37 | |
but particularly Gibraltar that have a huge amount of concerns | 0:52:37 | 0:52:39 | |
about their position following Brexit? | 0:52:39 | 0:52:44 | |
Well, we are, and I am seeing the chief minister of Gibraltar | 0:52:44 | 0:52:47 | |
almost after this meeting. | 0:52:47 | 0:52:51 | |
Simon thank you very much. | 0:52:51 | 0:52:54 | |
The Secretary of State seems reluctant to go into specifics | 0:52:54 | 0:52:57 | |
about exposing his negotiating hand but as you will recall straight | 0:52:57 | 0:53:01 | |
after the referendum there was huge uncertainty in markets. | 0:53:01 | 0:53:06 | |
The pound slumped, share prices down. | 0:53:06 | 0:53:17 | |
We were led to understand they would not be a rush to invoke | 0:53:17 | 0:53:21 | |
Article 50. | 0:53:21 | 0:53:21 | |
To give some breathing space and the markets and many major | 0:53:21 | 0:53:24 | |
investors time to speculate, on which approach we will take. | 0:53:24 | 0:53:33 | |
You clearly do not want to be transparent about this | 0:53:33 | 0:53:36 | |
but our markets, businesses and inverses want is to some degree | 0:53:36 | 0:53:39 | |
transparency that the outcome will be something they can live with. | 0:53:39 | 0:53:49 | |
You made it quite plain that you are not sure an EFTA model | 0:53:49 | 0:53:54 | |
is for Britain, but do you have some arrangement you will keep secret | 0:53:54 | 0:53:58 | |
until the last minute and that at the end of tonight years will be | 0:53:58 | 0:54:06 | |
until the last minute and that at the end of two years will be | 0:54:06 | 0:54:09 | |
brought out like a rabbit out of the hat, that the international | 0:54:09 | 0:54:13 | |
community, and in particular the business community, | 0:54:13 | 0:54:15 | |
will be satisfied with, and in the meantime what damage do | 0:54:15 | 0:54:18 | |
you think that will do to our international standing | 0:54:18 | 0:54:20 | |
in the markets and the strength of the pound, and what is happening | 0:54:20 | 0:54:24 | |
in investment in this country? | 0:54:24 | 0:54:25 | |
Let me take it apart from the beginning. | 0:54:25 | 0:54:28 | |
Firstly the description of the financial markets was just | 0:54:28 | 0:54:30 | |
simply not true. | 0:54:30 | 0:54:32 | |
The FTSE 100 and all the various indicators are good. | 0:54:32 | 0:54:38 | |
The standing of the pound is not in a poor place. | 0:54:38 | 0:54:55 | |
Indeed a previous government believed that that is where it | 0:54:55 | 0:54:57 | |
should be, so I am not in the business of speculative | 0:54:57 | 0:55:00 | |
on that but that description you have given is a little | 0:55:00 | 0:55:04 | |
like descriptions people were giving in August trying to blame things | 0:55:04 | 0:55:06 | |
on Brexit then of course all those things they were calling on Brexit | 0:55:06 | 0:55:10 | |
dissolved on wearing there, so... | 0:55:10 | 0:55:11 | |
Let me finish. | 0:55:11 | 0:55:12 | |
You ask the question so I will answer. | 0:55:12 | 0:55:14 | |
Firstly, your description of the economy is simple | 0:55:14 | 0:55:16 | |
not the case. | 0:55:16 | 0:55:17 | |
The first thing to say to you is a big business decisions | 0:55:17 | 0:55:21 | |
are not taken on the right thing of one commentator | 0:55:21 | 0:55:26 | |
in the Financial Times, they are taken over a period of time | 0:55:26 | 0:55:30 | |
and not taken off the back of the movement of the markets | 0:55:30 | 0:55:33 | |
on one day or another. | 0:55:33 | 0:55:35 | |
You will see the foreign investment into this country after the election | 0:55:35 | 0:55:39 | |
of a Government that had undertaken the referendum was as high as it | 0:55:39 | 0:55:44 | |
has ever been. | 0:55:44 | 0:55:49 | |
We saw investment in the country in a big way. | 0:55:49 | 0:55:59 | |
We saw investment. | 0:55:59 | 0:56:02 | |
One business said they were going to continue to invest. | 0:56:02 | 0:56:06 | |
So I frankly do not accept the premise but let's take the next | 0:56:06 | 0:56:10 | |
step as well. | 0:56:10 | 0:56:16 | |
That is what business views as uncertainty. | 0:56:16 | 0:56:20 | |
A business that wants to see a decision taken on the basis | 0:56:20 | 0:56:23 | |
of the facts, a Government doing representing the national interest | 0:56:23 | 0:56:26 | |
and that is what this Government is doing. | 0:56:26 | 0:56:30 | |
If I were still in business and worrying about whether to | 0:56:30 | 0:56:33 | |
invest, I would not be panicked by a Government taking its time | 0:56:33 | 0:56:38 | |
but by the Government rushing to do something in a tremendous hurry. | 0:56:38 | 0:56:45 | |
The premise of your question is flawed. | 0:56:45 | 0:56:49 | |
You say that, I know you had discussions with the Japanese | 0:56:49 | 0:56:52 | |
ambassador so let me give you a short passage. | 0:56:52 | 0:56:57 | |
What Japanese businesses wish to avoid the situation | 0:56:57 | 0:57:00 | |
in which they are unable to play discern the rear brakes | 0:57:00 | 0:57:09 | |
in which they are unable to play discern the Brexit | 0:57:09 | 0:57:12 | |
and negotiations are going and only grasping the whole picture | 0:57:12 | 0:57:14 | |
at the end. | 0:57:14 | 0:57:15 | |
It is imperative to regain the confidence of the world | 0:57:15 | 0:57:18 | |
and ensure competitiveness by increasing the predictability | 0:57:18 | 0:57:20 | |
of the Brexit process. | 0:57:20 | 0:57:21 | |
That is not just through a Japanese company | 0:57:21 | 0:57:23 | |
but of companies around the world is wondering | 0:57:23 | 0:57:25 | |
whether or not to pull out of Britain. | 0:57:25 | 0:57:27 | |
Because we will not have access. | 0:57:27 | 0:57:34 | |
You said yourself, we may not be in the single market when this | 0:57:34 | 0:57:38 | |
process is finished. | 0:57:38 | 0:57:43 | |
Did I say that? | 0:57:43 | 0:57:44 | |
You are basing that on what evidence? | 0:57:44 | 0:57:48 | |
Let me deal... | 0:57:48 | 0:57:51 | |
Secretary... | 0:57:51 | 0:57:52 | |
Let me finish, secretary of state. | 0:57:52 | 0:58:00 | |
You mention investment but that is not companies | 0:58:00 | 0:58:02 | |
like Nissan and a wholly owned by building factories, | 0:58:02 | 0:58:04 | |
it is a British company is taken over by a Japanese company. | 0:58:04 | 0:58:20 | |
It is not jobs and hard manufacturing. | 0:58:20 | 0:58:22 | |
Let's not mix this thing as equivalent to the big car | 0:58:22 | 0:58:25 | |
investments made in this country. | 0:58:25 | 0:58:32 | |
You were the one who raised is the FTSE numbers. | 0:58:32 | 0:58:35 | |
Many of the companies listed on the FTSE foreign-owned | 0:58:35 | 0:58:37 | |
and that is why the FTSE has not been affected to the same degree. | 0:58:37 | 0:58:41 | |
Where was the question at the end of that? | 0:58:41 | 0:58:46 | |
Let me deal with the Japanese point first. | 0:58:46 | 0:58:52 | |
The simple way of dealing with it is to go back to the Today | 0:58:52 | 0:58:57 | |
programme on the first day of the G 21 Japanese ambassador said | 0:58:57 | 0:59:00 | |
about how attractive Britain is and will continue to be. | 0:59:00 | 0:59:07 | |
If there is nothing new, | 0:59:19 | 0:59:20 | |
then the Court of Appeal aren't going to change their decision. | 0:59:20 | 0:59:24 |