22/06/2016 BBC Wales EU Referendum Debate

Should we remain in the European Union or leave? And what would be

best for Wales? On the eve of the biggest decision of our time,

welcome to the BBC Wales EU Referendum Debate.

Good evening and welcome to the Cardiff and Vale College in the

centre of our capital city. We are here after our debate in Swansea

last week was cancelled after the tragic killing of MP Jo Cox. For the

next hour here on BBC One Wales and BBC Radio 1 ales we will be debating

the future of the UK come in or out of the European Union, and what it

means for Wales. Joining me tonight, wanting to leave the EU, the

Conservative MP David Davis and the leader of Ukip in Wales, Nathan

Gill. On the Remain side, the First Minister, Carwyn Jones, and Plaid

Cymru leader Leanne Wood. APPLAUSE And audience tonight is a carefully

balanced mix of Remain and Leave supporters and those yet to make up

their minds. You can join in on our live page on the Wales website.

Straight to the first question which is from Gerry Jones. If the UK votes

to leave the European Union, will that have a positive or negative

effect on the economy in Wales? David Davies. Nobody knows for

certain if we pull out or stay in because one thing we can be certain

of is that economists predictions are very poor. What we can say is

that we buy more from the EU than we sell to it, our biggest trading

partner, the country with which we do the most trade is the USA and we

don't even have a trade deal with them. If we pull out of the EU, we

can almost certainly continue to trade freely with other European

states, it is their interests to do so, but we can organise trade deals

with countries across the rest of the world. There are

countries we have seen doing it, countries like the room who are much

smaller in size than the UK and have got trade deals with the European

Union. I suggest we have some confidence in ourselves, we are the

fifth biggest economy in the world, the seventh Guest Manufacturer.

Let's go for it, of course we can trade with the rest of the world. --

seventh biggest manufacturer. Why not have confidence for the UK on

the world stage? I think there is a risk to public out, it is a big leap

in the dark. -- pulling out. It is no coincidence that the major

companies in Wales, so many small businesses, the entire higher

education sector and the First Minister and myself as Leader of the

Opposition, we all believe it is in Wales's best interests to remain. We

believe that for economic reasons, cultural reasons, social reasons.

There are 191,000 jobs related to Welsh involvement in the European

Union. I'm not saying that all of those jobs would be lost if we were

to leave but a proportion of them are at risk. Why would we take that

risk? Nathan Gill, we know that what is a net beneficiary, to the tune of

?79 per head per year in terms of what we put in and get out. It is a

different story in the UK which loses out, 151, so the figures are

different, do you acknowledge that? This is the most bizarre argument I

hear, time after time, that somehow there is a thing such as EU money.

It doesn't exist. It is our money that we sent to Europe. The EU

creams off whatever they want to and send it to whatever country in

Europe they want to and they give us back a pittance. We have been given

?2 billion over seven years and we are expected to sell our birthright

as a nation, our democracy and our sovereignty for ?2 billion over

seven years. It is ridiculous and an insult to the Welsh people. Carwyn

Jones, there was regional money for Wales a long way before 1973 and

this idea that Wales get more out than it puts in, that would be

restored, wouldn't it? It would be money from the UK Government. I have

no faith at all in John Redwood and Boris Johnson replacing the

Moneypenny for Penny as far as Wales is concerned. But the offer you a

common-sense argument. A lot of my job involves attracting investment

into Wales, we have just had the lowest unemployment figures for many

years, lower than England and Scotland and Northern Ireland, 4.8%.

The reason we are in that position is because we have sold Wales and

brought jobs to Wales. Every single investor said that we need access to

the European market. And unless I can say, of course you can sell to

500 million people, they won't come. If we leave, the answer is that we

don't know. It means that Ireland and France and Germany will be able

to say, they can't answer that question can come to us in stead and

we will have the jobs. It makes us harder for us to attract investment,

harder to keep jobs. I have a Ford plant in Wales, if we are outside

the EU, the investment will go to often in. Mr Jones, I am from Merhi

on it and I would like to ask where are those jobs? Can I remind you

that the economy is stagnant in Gwynedd. It is more of a risk to

stay in than get out, we need to take a chance, we can do this. Put

your money where your mouth is. I would like to counter that argument,

36,970 jobs have come from EU funding into Wales. I would like to

ask the panel, given that the steel industry is exempt from state aid

rules and that over 50% of Tata Steel's exports go to the EU, would

a Brexit be the death knell for the steel industry in Wales? The EU has

been the deathknell of the steel industry in Wales. Plant after plant

has disappeared in Wales and now the last one that is here, Tata...

Listen... In 1975 we gave away our ability to stop any foreign country

from dumping their products cheaply on the markets. The EU has not stood

up for Wales, they have not put the tariffs on Chinese steel that the

Americans did. Thank you, let's take a point from Carwyn Jones. The EU

wanted to improve -- impose Paris on Chinese still, it was the UK

Government that blocked it. It will be more difficult as to state our

steel industry if we have uncertainty on Friday -- impose

tariffs. An investor will ask if we can sell into Europe and if the

answer is not yes, it will be more difficult to save our steel

industry. When the Tories close down so much of our steel industry, it

will happen again. He may not have heard of the World Trade

Organisation and he may not understand that under their rules,

we can sell to any country in the world anyway without a trade

agreement. The point of this gentleman raised, the British

tabloid wanted to bring in a compensation package to high energy

users including steel companies and were prevented from doing so because

of the length of time it took to get through the EU. That is factually

incorrect. Business rate up part and part of the Assembly's powers, they

could not cut business rate to the level it want to do because the EU

prevented it. We cannot bring in Paris as the dumped steel like the

Americans did. -- tariffs. It is not the EU that is responsible

for high energy costs otherwise why would energy costs be much cheaper

in Germany? Also, if the steel industry was going to be so damaged

by remaining in the European Union, why are the key players in the

industry in Wales supporting Remain? The key trade unions and companies

are all calling for a Remain vote. Why would they do that if it is so

bad for the industry? They have lost 90% of their trade because of the

Italian government which is basically put ?2 billion into state

aid to protect the industry. Which is completely illegal. What happened

to this level playing field we have been promised by the EU? What is

your vision of the UK outside the EU? Would you want the UK to be part

of a single market? We know you want out of the EU but what about the

single market? I would want to negotiate a trade deal with other

European Union countries. I fully accept... How long would that take?

I don't know but we can carry on selling as we do to America, we

selling and exporting right now without any kind of trade deal. We

don't need a trade deal in order to sell goods to people. It doesn't

need politicians. China, Japan, South Korea, they don't need it. Do

you think the EU would want to make it difficult for the UK to leave?

The head of the German CBI only said today that it would be very, very

foolish to impose tariffs on UK goods if there was a Brexit. The

Germans realised that they sell is 20% of every single car Bateman a

fracture. It will not lead to a trade war. -- they manufacture. The

reality is that half of our exports go to the EU. In return, 7% comes

back. We export far more... It is less than half, full

Of course there would be trade, but at a price. It means that Welsh

farmers selling land to the EU without an extra tariffs being

imposed will find that it is more expensive. It will be much more

competitive now than outside. Secondly, you want a free trade with

New Zealand, that means more cheap New Zealand lamb coming into Wales.

How are our farmers met to deal with that? This could Wales not be more

on its own and a global stage without the EU? Would it not

strengthen our position? If you are a business and you want to sell to

the biggest market you can, at the moment is 500 million. If we wake up

on Friday and we say, we can't guarantee access to that... Of

course we can. Nobody can do it. If you can't guarantee it, investors

and jobs will not come. You speak of the biggest employers and they all

agree. The European Union gives Wales the opportunity to have that

voice on a world stage. The risk to Wales is that this lot would pull up

the drawbridge, take the power from Westminster, concentrate it in

London. We would not see any of that power here in Wales, we would be

worse off here in Wales. The stick some points from the audience. --

let's take. You talk about a market of 500 million people, there is a

need a bigger market 7 billion people called the world. You talk

about being international, totally want an international Britain and

you will only get that when you leave Fortress Europe and the

regionalisation of the 1950s and you look outward to the world. That is

what is best for Wales not looking inwards to the EU. APPLAUSE

The gentleman with the tie. Can I say it is quite rude how you are

butting into people, we are here to hear the facts. Can the Leave side

tell me why the pound appreciated when there were threats of Brexit?

The stock market had gone to the pot, a lot of my mates who are

economists who want to go on to the stock market are scared of Brexit

and the pound is appreciating. You always get this in the run up to any

election, the fact that the pound rocks and that stock markets go up

and down is because people are buying and selling and betting on

them and that is up to them and it always happens at election times and

it is not a good reason to get rid of elections. Are you worried?

If the pound falls in value, it would be a huge boost for companies

that want to export the rest of the world. This is exactly what Nigel

Farage said, so what? July 2014 is when the market started on the

pound, if you look at the graphs, it has been going down Fifa years, it's

nothing to do with Brexit. For them to say, doom and gloom, we are going

to end up living in caves, it is ridiculous. The gentleman there? One

economic thing I can tell you, unfettered capitalism, only one

thing that will bring, they will look up the valleys and say, no

coal, no population, Mr Tebbit, on your bike. That is what will happen,

there will be decimated if we leave Europe. No workers' rights, no

protection. Workers' rights, which the British government instilled

long before we were in the EU. What about Magna Carta? Trade unions,

right across Europe! Thank you very much. You are on the side of big

business and the shareholders... Thank you, please. This will not

work if we are all shouting, it won't work. Let's take the man with

the checked shirt. Yes, we were in the ERM, the European Exchange

Market. We came out in 92, the pound plunged and that was when the

economy turned round. Every economist knows that. The gentleman

there? Can I go on? This thing about expert has been going on and on.

They want us to join the euro, those experts. None of them said we should

come out of the ERM, they were wrong. Most of them said we should

go into the euro, they were wrong. None of them... One more point, none

of them saw the crash in 2008. Thank you, the gentleman just below has

been waiting patiently. Lots of funding in Wales is being funded by

the EU, what plans and strategies do you have if we are going to Brexit?

There must be... A lot of us have said we will continue the same

funding after Brexit. The reality is, when we voted to leave tomorrow,

nothing is really going change immediately. It will take two years

to renegotiate the deal is. All other deals in place will continue

after tomorrow. It is our money, which is coming back to the valleys

and everywhere else. Let's be realistic, that money comes from

Brussels to Wales. If it goes via London, it will stay in a money box

in London! John Redwood, Michael Gove, Boris Johnson, we have been

fighting for years to get a fair funding deal. I don't believe them

as long as I can throw them, if I'm honest. At the end of the day, we

benefit. This is the problem, the problem is... Please let the man

speak. Nathan has identified this, there is a Lee vote on Friday, we

get two years of uncertainty, minimum. On Friday, if we stay in

the EU, the money still comes to Wales. We can still fund

apprenticeships, we can still fund our farmers and they get access to

the European market. If we leave, it is complete and utter uncertainty.

That means nobody is going to invest in the country when there is that

level of uncertainty. I come back to this point again, if you look at our

major employers, they have all sent Brexit is bad. The Leave campaigners

say they don't know what they are talking about, I think the people

that employ thousands of people in Wales know what they are talking

about. In terms of structural funds for poorer areas, we are essentially

a country on EU benefits, your cases let's stay in the European Union to

carry on claiming those benefits, rather than being a country that

gets out to work, is that the appeal? I want Wales to be able to

stand on its own two feet. I wanted to become an independent nation

within the European family of nations. But I don't want that job

of us improving our economy, getting more prosperity, to be made much

more difficult than it needs to be already. We have already got a

difficult job on our hands to bring our economy up to scratch, to make

sure people in Wales have decent wages and are able to have a decent

living. Let's not tire hands behind our backs and make it even more

difficult by with drawing money available to us. There is an element

of redistribution of wealth that the European Union carries out to try

and lift the poorest nations and regions up to the level of everyone

else. I have absolutely no faith whatsoever in the Tories, the

further right than the Tories, who would be taking control. That is who

is going to be taken control if we leave the European Union. -- taking

control. The differences you can throw us out, you can't throw out a

EU Commissioner. You can't throughout the house of lords,

either, Parliament is not fully elected. I have listened to several

economists recently and I know it is a temptation to choose the ones that

agree with your point of view. But I have spent half an hour listening to

Michael Duggan, I think, a professor of economic law at Liverpool

University. It was extremely interesting, what he was saying. All

right, he more or less confirmed what my opinions are. You want to

Remain? Most definitely. If I make this point, another economist that

is trotted out is Patrick Minford of Cardiff University. This man was one

of Mrs Thatcher's... We can't go through all of the economists, we

would be here all day. After that debate, you were undecided, have you

had any clarity at all? You don't have long left to decide. I will

still reserve judgment come I want to find out what we are going to say

about immigration, the next topic. On the economy, no clearer, still

undecided? Well, that brings us neatly to the next question. This is

from Liam Williams. I support giving the persecuted refuge and I agree

with controlled immigration, but I think that immigration levels have

got out of hand. Does the Remain campaign had any intention to

control the numbers of people coming to the UK from the EU? Leanne Wood?

Well, I am not sure what you mean by immigration getting out of hand.

Well, if you look at the figures, in the 2011 census, 95% of people that

live in Wales were born in the UK. Only 2.6% of our population come

from within the European Union. I would like to take this opportunity

to thank all of those people out there, all of those workers in our

health service, all of those people that have opened up businesses in

our communities, who employ people. Can I just say this, because I met a

woman the other day, she is a concert pianist from Germany. Her

two children are in local Welsh medium schools, her children have

been asking her, if Wales pulled out of the European Union on Thursday,

does that mean we have to live in Germany? Does it mean that she has

to leave the country? The truth is, she can't answer her children. I am

married to a Hungarian citizen, it is outrageous that the remain

campaign have spread these stories to law-abiding, hard-working people

from all over the world, telling them they might get thrown out. It

is absolutely untrue. You can't guarantee there will stay! You have

no idea. Switzerland, India, places in or out of the EU, it is nonsense,

let's put that one too bad. I share some of your concerns. I would like

to see more done to help the genuine persecuted, particularly women and

children from minority groups within the Middle East that are being

persecuted. I'm concerned that at the moment we are seeing

uncontrolled migration of mainly young men, and I have been to

immigration comes, it is mainly young men, not coming from Syria,

but from a variety of countries. Is that why you put up that post? I

think mainstream politicians should be able to raise this issue, raise

the concern shared by 70 people, I am fed up with being called a racist

by people in the Remain campaign for expressing that. -- shared by so

many people. Can you guarantee that immigration would come down if

Britain left the EU? What we have been advocating for a long time is

an Australian style points -based system. Australia has higher

immigration per head of population. If you, as a nation, want more

people to come to your country, you use a points -based system, like

Australia, to increase your population. That is what I just

said, thank you for listening to me. If you want your population to

remain stable or decrease, you can use it to do that. It is up to be

Government to decide, unfortunately I am not in the Government, but what

I can say is that our system, an Australian, points -based system,

means the people that come here have the skills, the ability that we need

and they will not depress wages, because it is supply and demand. If

you have too much supply, wages will go down. Just on the poster, it has

featured largely in the campaign, Nigel Farage's poster, were you

proud of it? Listen, we're not the only people using posters with

immigration on them, OK? This is your side, your people. That is an

absolute disgrace, OK? The reality is, Project Fear, Project Doom And

Gloom... It is a photograph that was used... Please can I ask about...

I'm proud of our campaign, I'm proud of the fact that I am able to

raise... What is wrong with it? It's a legitimate photograph that all of

the newspapers are used. Are you being serious!? It has failed us

all. Can I say something about this post? It is racist. No, that is a

racist poster. It is comparable to what was being put out by the Nazis

in 1930. Just put the two together, you can see the similarities. You

defend the poster? It is scraping the bottom of the barrel. Thank you,

Carwyn Jones, on the poster and the broader question of immigration? I

think that the poster was stupid, and most of the Leave campaign have

said so. They want nothing to do with it and that sums up the

situation. The reality is that Australia is a country of

immigrants, Switzerland has an immigration rate that is 2.5 times

what ours is, and it's not even in the EU. It's nothing to do with the

EU at all. 2.6% of the population, and what jobs are they doing? They

are mainly young, fit and working, they don't draw from the NHS because

of their age, they pay into it, they pay taxes. They are working in the

NHS, working in the care sector, they are doing jobs that people find

difficult to do, like the abattoirs, they employ a lot of people from

outside the UK because they found it difficult to recruit locally. These

are people that are contributing to our economy, I don't see any great

difficulty in seeing them paying their taxes, paying into the coffers

and paying into the NHS. I accept people think immigration is a big

issue, if you look at the figures, it isn't. What is a big issue is job

security. People feel they don't have job security, they don't

pensions, they don't have permanent contracts, they have zero hour

contracts and they feel something must be to blame. Immigrants are not

to blame, it is the policies of the right-wing government and austerity.

Should we have more immigration in Wales? 2.6% is about right. We are

not seeing... What the Leave campaign would have you believe is

that there are floods of people coming in, there are not. 40,000

come out of 3 million people. And most of them are working and

contributing to the economy. I don't mind where they come from, they are

paying for our pensions. Let's go to the audience. I am an immigrant, I

came from India about 20 years ago, I am an NHS doctor. I think I have

made a significant contribution to this country. What you're talking

about when you talk about a points system dehumanises me, it makes me

an object, it makes me a highly skilled object with high points so I

can come in, somebody that does not have that can not come in. Countries

all over the world use this. It is not, it is just Australia, you are

dehumanising a large chunk of the population. I am married to an

immigrant, my sister-in-law is an immigrant. But we cannot have an

open door system, where anyone who wants to can just walk in, and that

is what we have got at the moment. Nathan Gill, thank you. Lady in the

red shirt. I am a migrant worker from the EU, and I'm also a member

of the Trade Union And Socialist Coalition, I don't have an issue

with immigrants come I do have an issue with employers using people

from abroad as cheap labour and paying them less than the minimum

wage, according to EU rules. According to something called the

Posted Workers Directive, that I want to get rid of, and is one of

the reasons I want to leave, because the free movement of people is

abused to have cheap labour. I share your concerns and I would

reject the Posted Workers Directive I would want to see a strengthening

of trade Unions, a rising of the minimum wage, a proper living wage.

The reason wages have been squeezed and workers' rights have been

withdrawn or reduced in recent years is to do with the reduction in the

strength of trade unions over many years. We could overcome those

problems without pulling out of the EU. We could lose the working Time

directive potentially. I have no faith in these right-wing

politicians to protect... Thank you very much. It is clearly not the

case that anyone can walk into this country, that is why we have all of

those people in Calais. If they could just walk in, they would be

here right now. It is right we have passport control. It is clearly

wrong to say that anybody can walk in. It is just sheer scaremongering.

We know that people are coming to the UK, they woke up and contribute,

and they do need to contribute, of course, and they pay into our

system. To say that somehow anybody can walk into the UK defies logic

because it is obvious that is not the case. The question is, would you

agree, because I agree that people should contribute but you said

nobody should have a free ride but would you agree that anybody coming

over and just claiming benefits and breaking the law should be chucked

out? I think that is reasonable. But we can't do that while we are in the

EU, we would have to pull out to do that. Can I ask you, on the issue of

the reforms offered by David Cameron in Brussels, you are on the same

side as him, are you confident that he will deliver those? 27 countries

still have the rubber-stamp them. Not if we leave coming will not

deliver, if we stay I think he will deliver. People understand their

needs to be reform in the EU will stop that is perfectly reasonable.

It is reasonable to assume that an agreement reached in principle will

be carried through. So he negotiated a good deal? I think he has taken it

forward in terms of the EU. It is important that the EU recognises

that it has to change, it cannot stay the same for ever. It does

wrestle with problems it needs to address but from my perspective,

there is a lot wrong with the UK but I wouldn't leave it. It is important

to stay in and reform. We are in the Euros, we have been shouting in the

crowd for 58 years, we have not been influencing what has been happening

and the same thing happen if we left the EU, we would be in the crowd

shouting, not on the pitch playing and that is what I want Britain to

be doing. Let's take a few points. There is a flip side to immigration

that doesn't get discussed. Currently there are 1.4 million

Brits living in Europe. If we left the European Union and they were to

come back home, that would have a negative impact on our economy and

local councils would suffer. And the gentleman in the blue? You quoted

net migration. 330 3000. As a percentage of how much of that is

non-EU controlled or migration? It's about 50%. But don't forget that a

lot of people migrating into the EU from outside are being given EU

passports. And what has your government done to control that? You

do agree that half of our migration can actually be controlled? Probably

more than that. If we pull out we would be able to control the number

of people coming in from outside and we would not have is people coming

in illegally from other countries and being given EU passports. Do you

acknowledge that your government could control 50% of it now? I would

acknowledge that the government could do a lot more than they are

and they should. And if the French authorities withdrew their policing

of Calais? First of all it would be crazy for them to do that because of

trying to stop people going to Calais in the first place and the

one thing that would attract them would be if the French decided to

try to stop those border controls. But you have no idea really. You are

trying to defend something that is indefensible which is an open door

immigration policy. It is not an open door policy. What numbers would

you like? What is manageable? I want a functioning Welsh economy. Answer

the question. This is not going to work if we are just shouting at each

other. The gentleman waiting patiently. This young lady asked a

question about ten minutes ago and is a typical politician, she didn't

bother to answer, she went off on this load of trouble. I disagreed on

the premise of the question. Can you remember it? She asked if

immigration was out of control and I said I didn't think it was. The

gentleman behind her. We have had the question, sir. Politicians don't

always answer I'm afraid! The gentleman behind. Leanne Wood must

be able to in the wilderness because I have called over eight or nine

years as a market researcher, thousands of homes in the Welsh

valleys. I can tell you now that people, the most important thing

they come up with is immigration. Leanne Wood has heard that time and

time again and she is trying to pretend that people are not

interested in it but they are. That is the major issue in the Welsh

valleys. The numbers of 2.6 aw... They don't matter. I have never said

that people are not concerned about immigration, they are, I would

acknowledge that. People are very angry, angry because their wages

have been depressed, because they have lost many local public

services, but what I would say to all of those people who express that

anger, don't blame the people who are already exploited, blamed the

elite, blame the establishment, blame the people you are causing

your problems. The gentleman with the glasses. In my opinion, there is

a big problem in the sleeve's policy on immigration and it relates to

Northern Ireland -- Vote Leave. On the one hand they say that we don't

need to reinstate the Bourdy between the Republic and the North but on

the other hand you want to control immigration. The EU is not just to

the east of the UK, it is also the Republic of Ireland so how will that

work? They seem mutually exclusive. There are about 50 odd countries in

the world ranging from Chile, Dominica, Saint Lucia, places I have

never even heard of, who has Visa free access to the EU where they can

come and read anywhere. Why would we not allow Ireland, our neighbour for

hundreds of years... You want to close the borders. We can have Visa

free access. The lady in front. The Leave campaign are talking about

Project Fear but what about the fear in the ethnic minority groups and

those of mixed race. I am a quarter Chinese and 23 and I have never met

my Chinese ancestors apart from my dad because they were all born in

the UK. I have never received so much racism is what I have since

that pain has been going on. They had been spat at and told to go back

to my own country. I was born in the UK. I think that is absolutely

appalling. My sister-in-law is Chinese. I had a mixed-race nephew

and I think anybody who picks on somebody because of their skin or

their ethnicity is the on contempt. I would not work with anybody who

took that attitude. It is your campaigners. My family are like the

United Nations, you would not know it to look at me! I don't see any

problem with saying, we have to be able to control migration into the

UK from anywhere in the world and it is also reasonable to say that if

people are coming into our country, we should expect all people coming

here to learn the language and be prepared to work and not break the

law. To respect the culture of the country. Just as I respect the

culture of the Chinese and everybody else. Nathan Gill. I completely

concur with everything you have just said. The reality is, I never joined

Ukip because I was concerned about immigration, I joined because I

wanted my nation to get its independence back, for us to be a

free nation where we could make our own laws once again and that we

defended the democracy that my grandfathers and great grandfathers

fought for in two world wars. That is what it is all about. It is not

about immigration, how much money we descend to Europe, it is genuinely

about the democracy of this nation -- we send. Carwyn Jones. I worry

when you talk about what happened in the walls. After the Second World

War, people wanted peace in Europe. Churchill was one of the first

advocate of a European Union. He did not want to run a wave. Before the

war he wanted the UK and France to be one state -- run away. The reason

the generation after the war want closer cooperation is because they

remembered Europe in complex and that is the last thing we want. The

idea that our democracy is under threat is plainly wrong. An example

of where the EU has created peace. Northern Ireland, if it was not for

the EU, there would not have been a peace process. I know Northern

Ireland, it gave the opportunity for barriers to be broken down, people

did not feel one side or the other, they could share a common identity

and if we don't have that there are serious issues about the way people

look at themselves in Northern Ireland. Thank you. This has been a

very lively and at times pretty bad tempered debate. That brings us to

our next question which is from Linda. Can I say, as an immigrant

into this country, the rhetoric coming from this site, I feel quite

intimidated sitting here, can utopia down a bit? You are sitting there

full of anger -- can you tone it down. I come from a border town in

Ireland and I know what it's like. Thank you. Do you think your

campaigns have been a success, there are a couple parts to this question,

do you think your campaigns have been a success and are you confident

that the rhetoric used to convince voters to leave or remain in the EU

has had a positive impact? And do you think that this referendum has

left the political debate in Wales worse off because we are talking

about Wales? Nathan Gill. Basically, we have definitely got momentum on

our side in the campaign, it started pretty low-key because we had just

come out of a Welsh Assembly election but over the last two and a

half, three weeks, we have felt things starting to gather. Anybody

who has been out campaigning will have seen a huge swell up public

support for our side of the argument. With regard to rhetoric,

the rhetoric of Ukip all along has been to believe in Britain. That has

been our mantra. Have you always got the tone right? Well, in this

debate, things get heated, we are passionate people. I have been doing

this for 12 years and we have finally got a referendum. David has

been doing it for 20 years, Nigel Farage 425 years, of course we will

be passionate. Regardless of how it goes tomorrow, there will be highs

and lows because we believe so passionately in this. This is your

cup final tomorrow, your biggest game, if you lose, what happens to

you and your party? How can ask me such a question? We will find out on

Friday. Carwyn Jones, the tone of the campaign? I think the tone in

London has been pretty bad on both sides. We have seen weeks and weeks

of poison. I think there will be a huge amount of work to be done to

reunite people in Wales and in Britain and I think quite often the

facts have been lost in abuse between Conservative politicians.

How can there be a Conservative Party after you see their prominent

members calling each other liars in public? That is the issue.

Were you later to the party? That's a fair point, I said to David

Cameron, why are you having an election six months after an

election? I hope I never see a referendum campaign with this, with

so much poison and vitriol. We have to take a hard look at ourselves.

Are we going to be a sour, paranoid country after Friday or, whatever

the result, will we come together and make sure the kind of abuse,

physical abuse, the kind of verbal abuse, is never witnessed again in

Wales or Britain? I find myself agreeing with Carwyn,

but people that have been shouting out words like Nazis have been the

Remainer Mass. It's been a campaign of negativity, how we will see the

end of civilisation, the collapse of the economy, house prices and the

rest of it. Nathan, high, all of us on the side, we've been up

against a powerful government machine. It's been a beauty contest,

hasn't it? The polls suggest it hangs on a knife edge. Whatever

happens, we will know whether the campaign has been a success when we

get the result, whatever happens, I think we have delivered a huge

wake-up call to the elite in Brussels, people like the head of

Serco, the biggest outsourcer in the NHS, how a socialist light you can

stand next to somebody promoting the privatisation of the NHS, I don't

know. -- a socialist like you. Any of you guys, how you can be

supporting big business in saying that we should be staying, it

beggars belief. I am on the conservative side of small

businesses who believe in freedom and democracy. I've been active in

politics for 25 years. I have never been involved or come across a

campaign that has been so filled with hate in all my time in

politics. I have to say, the lies have come from the Leave side, on

the leaflets, on the poster, or the bus. Will you just let me finish my

point, please? You've shouted the whole time. They want to hear what

positions... You keep doing it. I want to develop politics in Wales, a

society where people can cooperate and work together. We are going to

have a big job of patching things up after the selection. This campaign

has divided communities and has brought the worst kind of poison and

the worst kind of politics out in people. Is that why you have taken a

back-seat as a party? You have not been front and centre of the

campaign. This has been a Tory and Tory, on right fight.

Could you have done more, played a bigger role? My party has worked

very hard on this campaign. We have had a matter of a Welsh election,

which took us up into the beginning of May, and the aftermath of that.

We did warn that it was going to be difficult in Wales for us to fight a

proper campaign on this. You have not had a proper campaign? I

wouldn't say that, we have done what we can within the constraints we

have had, but we have been fighting real bile. I hope when this is out

of the way, we can build a nation where people can cooperate and live

together without racism and hatred. A view points from the audience. The

gentleman with the beard? Leanne, if we were like you want, to become an

independent Wales, what would even be the point if we were still in the

European Union? Still told what to do, what would be the point of

becoming independent? My position on Welsh independence is the opposite

to these boys's position on the UK being independent. I don't want to

pull up the drawbridge. I want to cooperate with other countries in

the world, I don't want to be an isolationist, in an isolationist

position. I think Wales has a great contribution to play, not just in

the European Union but in the world. It is people in Scotland that want

independence for Scotland, they are in favour of remaining in the

European Union as well. It is not an unusual place to be. The gentleman

next door? The initial question was about the rhetoric and the tone, and

it was quite dismaying, when Leanne used the opportunity to call us

hateful liars. We are the group of hope, we are saying we succeed

outside the EU. They are saying we have to bend the knee to Brussels

because Britain cannot survive alone. I say that is rubbish. We are

one of the best countries in the world, one of the proudest histories

in the world and we can stand on our own two feet. Asked people in

France, Germany, across Europe, what is the point of being French or

German? Let's set up that table, let's lead, let's not surrender,

let's lead Europe to a better place. Colin Jones, yesterday you said if

it were a Leave vote, you would negotiate directly with Brussels.

What did you mean? You can see people do not think that Wales has

that right, they laugh at the very idea of Wales. If there is a Leave

vote, regardless of what Wales does, there will still be a need to get

the best deal for Wales. I don't trust the Tories to get it for us.

Of Wales votes to leave, you can't do that? If the UK boats to leave...

What if Wales does? From our perspective, we will have to say to

the people of Wales, we hear what you say and there is a job to do to

make sure that the people of Wales see the benefit of the union. If the

UK wants to leave, whether Wales wants to remain or leave, there will

still be a need for a Welsh voice in negotiations. On that point? Is

interesting that Carwyn is saying that he will go and negotiate if the

UK boats to leave, but what if Wales votes to leave and the rest of the

UK boats to stay? Will he go and negotiate Wales leaving the European

Union? If so, I would be happy to give him a hand. I'd like to go back

to one point that Leanne brought up, independence, it is the same in both

languages, look it up in the dictionary, it means standing on

your own two feet, make your own laws, paying your own way in the

world. If you want Wales to be independent, if that is what Plaid

Cymru are saying, you are giving an oxymoron to your supporters by

saying you can be independent inside the EU. It cannot and will not ever

be a reality. There are very few countries in the world that are

completely independent. America, China, Japan, South Korea? Let her

answer, please. There are countries that are independent all over the

world, but very interdependent on each other as well. They were gunned

cooperate together and that is what we want for Wales. We want Wales to

take our place within that family of nations, to be progressive, learn

from others, to work with others who are multilingual, rather than

isolate ourselves. You just want to replace Westminster

-- you want to replace Westminster with Brussels. I think they are

tying themselves in knots, you believe in independence or not. I

believe in independence for the United Kingdom... What about for

Wales? It will be independent from a bunch of bureaucrats that will never

knock on anybody's door asking them anything. It is taken control of

borders, deciding our own immigration policy, taking control

of the people that make the laws for us in this country. What do you say

to people watching at home that are still confused and worried that it

would be a leap in the dark? I would say, believe in Britain, believe in

ourselves. The fifth biggest economy in the world, the seventh biggest

manufacturing nation in the whole world. Ask yourselves this, we all

know, whether we like it or not, there is a Conservative Government,

David Cameron is the Prime Minister, who knows which party is running the

European Parliament? Nobody does. If you don't even know who is making

the decisions, you have no chance of putting them out. The important

thing is that we have control over our politicians. It is not the money

and immigration, it is that we control the people that make the

laws in the country, they have to knock on the door and asked for your

vote, and if they can't deliver, they get kicked out. That is

democracy and why we should vote for independence. Briefly, David Davies,

if David Cameron loses, does he resign? You would have to ask him,

I'm happy for him to remain as Prime Minister, take us out of the

European Union and get that deal for Britain he was not able to get a few

months ago. Only a few hours to go until the vote. Let's have closing

thoughts. This is going to be the very first time in our nation's

history where we can protect and defend, bring back our democracy and

our sovereignty without having to go to war. We can do it at the ballot

box. Tomorrow is the most important vote you will ever make in your life

and if we get it wrong, if we vote to Remain, we will be stuck in that

club for ever. Vote for our freedom and independence, make sure that you

believe in Britain the way that I do and I believe in Wales and I know

that we can, as a nation, stand on our own two feet. Leanne Wood? Wales

can be great, Wales can be a fantastic success. You only have to

look at what our football team did this week, on a European stage, to

show what we can do. But not if those powers are taken from Brussels

and concentrated in Westminster will stop that would be to Wales's

detriment. Both of us are united in saying it is in Wales's best

interests to remain in the European Union. Do not take the gamble, don't

take the chance, vote Remain tomorrow. David Davies? You have

heard from Remain, it is a negative vision, it is based on insults,

calling us liars, Nazis, boys, whatever it is. It is a vision of a

ever closer union, a federal European superstate run by unelected

commissioners who will be influenced by the vested interests of big

business, a big NGO, who ever can get into Brussels and lobby. Our

vision is of an outward looking Wales, and outward looking Britain

trading with the whole world, good relationships with the whole world,

doing business with the world. Carwyn Jones? So many of the

arguments they deployed in their favour arguments they used to deny

powers to Wales, to concentrate powers in London. I want to see the

politics of Hope triumph over the politics of hate, I want to live in

a bright, confident country that works with other countries that

share our values, ones that fear the global threat of terrorism and does

not run away with it and put its head in the sand. Freedom,

tolerance, democracy and justice, that is my country and I wandered

back. -- I want it back. The debate is at an end, but it continues on

social media. There is a debate on S4C tonight at 9:30pm. The polls

open at 7am, over to you. Goodbye.