A BBC Look North Referendum Special Better In or Out?

All June 23 people in the north-east and Cumbria will make a historic

decision, should Britain leave the European Union or choose to remain?

Vermont's campaigners on both sides have been waging war on how the

result of a referendum could have an impact on jobs, trade and

immigration. Claims for example that carmaking in the north-east could be

damaged by leaving the EU, disputed by those who think a Brexit vote

could help businesses find new markets. In brother is debate over

whether businesses are tonight with a panel and audience we

look at the impact on people living here. Are we better end or out of

the EU? Welcome to Look North's

EU referendum debate. I have an audience with me

from right across the region, armed with questions

and points they want to make to the right we have people who

would prefer to remain within the EU, to the left people who would

like to Leave. You can join in the discussion

on Twitter using #EUrefLookNorth. Our political editor Richard Moss

is chairing our panel. It's from Brian Dennis

from Teesside. I lost my job at SSI,

along with thousands of others. The reasons that were given to me

why the Government could not help us Can someone please explain to me why

staying in the EU is good for jobs? When on Teesside 5000 people are

looking for work? Kevin Maguire, your newspaper has supported the

Remain campaign, but here we have a concrete example of someone

believing that EU rules got in the way of saving around 3000 jobs. We

campaigned hard at the daily Mirror to save the Redcar and the rest of

the steel industry and don't buy that it was the European Union which

shot red card. It was an act of industrial vandalism which will

devastate that area of Teesside. Anne Marie's government would not

keep the oven is going to get a new buyer. On top of that that

government is in thrall to the Chinese because they want Chinese

money to build nuclear power stations. So they would not back

European Commission attempts to raise tariffs on Chinese steel

coming into Britain. We can blame Brussels and the European

Commission. It didn't affect what happened in Redcar. There are things

the government could have done, it could have cut the cost of energy

for steel, it could have cut the business rates but they didn't. They

could have bought more British deal which they didn't. Warships have

been made in Britain for the Royal Navy but they don't have British

Steel, that's why that plant went. It is up to you to defend the

government on this particular issue, it's a wider point that, the last

thing that Teesside needs after that shot is more job shocks and that the

allegation from Leave, that it will leave to the loss of more jobs? In

terms of steel, it's something that I battled with several years ago

with the aluminium factory in my constituency where the changes to

high energy industries brought into an EU directive meant that it just

put them out of business. That happens not only in aluminium but it

had already then started to have an impact on steel, this high energy

cost. That is something I have stood up to the Chancellor about and said

I felt that was something we should be doing to reduce so that we could

help our high energy industries. They then move out of the UK or the

EU. These things are in control of the UK Government. Anna Soubry said

state aid rules make it difficult. If you look at the referendum in

terms of jobs, do you want to work within the directive set by the EU

which may or may not help your business, for some businesses the EU

directives are very helpful but in a lot of the cases of smaller

businesses and in the high energy industry directive, it's going

against what we might want to do so for me the better choice is to step

out of the EU and take control of those decisions and thought in

people or out people who make decisions that you want. At the

moment it makes very little difference if you put me in or out

because so many of these decisions are taken by people out with. Can I

just ask, it is your job we are talking about and the jobs of many

others, what are your opinions? My opinion is that the government is

hiding behind European state aid rules. They could have chose to

help, they have decided they will help people in Wales and Scunthorpe,

the same rules apply yet I want the government which will stand up to

Europe or if we are out we will make our own decisions. Once we make our

own decisions that falls squarely on the shoulders, nobody to hide

behind, if we are out we are better off. We want a government which done

supper Britain but that is in London, not Brussels will stop the

can fight for the steel industry when they want but they didn't feel

it was worth fighting for those jobs in Redcar. You grew up in

Middlesbrough win the steel industry was healthier than it is now. Yes, I

have been up to Redcar many times. Of course the EU was not to blame,

it was something that the government, your party head behind

in order to take no action whatsoever. Kevin Maguire is

absolutely right. On jobs, why should Brian and people looking for

a job the better outside the EU? There are a couple of more subtle

points, the EU does not look kindly upon protectionism and I look more

kindly upon that. I think we need to protect jobs in our own country but

nonetheless it's quite clear that in this particular case it was the

government, solely the government to blame and not the EU because they

were able to go ahead and take part ownership of other steelworks

elsewhere. It's a red herring. In terms of the general picture of

jobs, I have no doubt whatsoever that membership of the EU has

lowered the wage rates for the poorest people in this country. I

have no question at all about that, it simply has. It's almost

incontestable. But on that strict issue of what happened at Redcar, it

was down to the Conservative government and the Conservative

government lying effectively. I am sure you would see much of the same

things but let's deal with the arguments about jobs in particular,

has the remain campaign overplayed its hand about jobs? There might be

an economic shock short-term but what about long-term consequences? I

grew up in Newcastle in the 70s and 80s in a heavily industrialised

North East and even now after a number of Conservative governments

we are still our manufacturing region, the only region which

exports more than it imports. 58% of those exports go to Europe and I

want our businesses to have access to 500 million people for the great

services and goods they can build and export. I know... I would doubt

trade figures recently and it is 58% of the EU, but the proportion of

trade to other parts of the world has fallen which doesn't suggest all

these trade deals are doing north-east businesses that good,

with America and Asia? We have global economy and the shocks to the

global economy, we have, with Europe, we have 500 million people

who are also helping us arrange trade deals with other countries

which are growing. I think it's important we have small businesses

in the north-east who are trying to grow and build new jobs and the need

to be protected as we were talking about. Competition rules in the

European Union help small businesses to grow, that's why the EU can take

on Google and Microsoft which are small businesses need their help and

support. Quite a few members of the audience wanting to come in,

gentlemen in the green T-shirt. The point is, you are making about

exports, all this nonsense about relying on exports to the EU, we

import far more from the EU than we export to them. Last year and for

the last three years we have had a balance of payments deficit of over

?70 billion. At that rate it is not sustainable, we will become bankrupt

through debt just because of the imports we are importing. It's much

better to favour local businesses like on Teesside and the only way

the government can do that is to get out of the EU procurement rules. If

I can just take this to the other side for other reasons. I only

employs 35 people but five of them I can put much guarantee are dependent

on trade with European companies. So if you multiply my business out

across thousands in the north-east I know their jobs will at risk. I'm

not saying they will go but they will be at risk and I don't want to

take that chance. I don't think I want those five people to be at risk

either. We are talking about a very meaty issues here in the north-east

and Cumbria, what is the point you wanted to make? Talking about the

common market, the EU, what I am saying is that when I grew up and

went to school and started work, what I, my government of my day said

we export order we did to the world. Not the EU. To the world. That gets

you jobs. Thank you very much. I agree entirely that we should be

exporting to the world but the fact is we are and are exporting to the

EU as well. Exports to the EU are 30% of our GDP, 4% of the European

Union's GDP so the idea we will be in a strong position to get some

kind of special deal when we have left the EU, I don't think that

makes sense. You are here, businesses talking about

uncertainty. I have suddenly understand you have a set of

relationships at the moment, in the uncertain world we are in at the

moment, but the reality is that presumably you make a great product

and you sell it into the European countries and others because you are

selling something people want to buy and the reality is I refused to

accept, and every businessman I talk to will see you're not selling goods

to the EU, you're selling them to people who want to buy them. But the

reality is a huge trade deficit. Our Germany Journal like going to say we

are not buying UK products any more? The French are not Greg Salas there

goods? The reality is trade will continue because if you are selling

something they want to buy it will continue -- the French are not going

to sell us the goods. My competitors will leap on the chance of any

hesitation so if we have anything which could potentially get in our

wake, and there are nontariff barriers, that could cause a big

problem to our business and I don't want to go there. You are the expert

in your field and your voice has as much value in the debate as mine

does, your vote, my vote, it's important you cast your vote how you

feel is right for you. For me I believe for lots of reasons that

trading to 6 billion people in a better global framework with trade

deals that we can negotiate will be the stronger balance.

Let's not pretend this is a free hit. You leave, you will disrupt the

economy. There will be a recession, people will lose their jobs,

livelihoods will go down. You can predict as much as you like what

will happen, you can promise the moon now, but the truth is in the

short-term there will be a hit, even people like Nigel Farage accept

that. The north-east and Cumbria are in

need of investment, we often feel the Northern powerhouse does not

come this far north. What would compensate for the lack of

investment down the different European strands that have invested

in so many facilities, attractions and infrastructure here? ?400

million coming to the north-east between now and 2020, ?500 million

came in the six years before that, 78,000,002 Cumbria, what would

replace that? Money that our Government would pour into the

north-east, if it was a decent Government. A decent Labour

Government would have it. It is absurd to say the only way the

north-east could be protected is by being part of the EU. You need to

ensure you have the right Government in Westminster. I would say it is a

Labour Government, preferably without its current leader. It is

our money, we are donors to the EU. That creates uncertainty. We know

European funding will come. There will be uncertainty. Of all the

idiocy we have heard in this campaign, the bar has been set so

low, we had a bit from Kevin 80 minutes ago, the plagues of locusts

and killer bees coming to kill us if we leave. There is no doubt

nonetheless that in the short term there will be a bumpy ride.

Absolutely. The leave campaign should be more honest about owning

up to that. Trade deals take time. That happened. It is not a bumpy

ride with your job on your income. There are real futures at stake. We

will be better off in the longer run. It is silly... It is that of

Kevin to say we will go to hell in a handcart, it will be murderous, but

we should not minimise the fact that there will be problems. It is about

?2 we spend to get ?1 back of this development money. Is that good

value for money? Think about this. The Government currently spends ?24

on transport in the south for every ?1 it spend per head in the North,

it spends nine times more on culture in the South, London, Derby North.

We get more from the EU, we get more back from the EU than we put in. It

is our money! I don't trust a Tory Government... I don't trust Boris

Johnson and Michael Gove and the next leaders of the Tory party to

give that investment to the north-east. I don't think it will

happen, they have never done it in the past. The EU invests 24 million

in Newcastle every year. The European research grants help our

universities to deliver. World beating science. I want us to be

strong and leading in Europe, that investment helps us in the

north-east, not dependent on Whitehall. I want to understand why

it is bad to be dependent on Whitehall but not on Brussels. We

will hear a little later. I sense we need to have a good section on

hearing the views from the audience. I work in Cumbria's second largest

industry, tourism. It has grown significantly over recent years. The

growth has not come from Europe, it has come from the rest of the world,

visitors from China, India, the United States, Canada, Australia,

New Zealand. The business from Europe is stagnating. It is about

looking to the world, not just Europe. Europe is the only continent

whose economy is stagnant, apart from Antarctica. We are a growing

area, we don't need Europe to proper is up. We can better spend our money

ourselves. This chap in the waistcoat. You are mixing two issues

together. There is something the Government can do, we can ask where

the money should be spent. She already said ?1 compared to ?8,

let's say no more. In comparison to the EU, the Leave campaign only have

two points to argue about, no matter what you say, no matter who it is,

they are all on about one or two issues, one is migration,

immigration, this debate is all about immigration, and the other one

is the ?350 million they spend every week. Never say that 280 million of

it, we get it back directly. No matter what you say. We don't,

actually. That economy, what we spend is only one fraction of it,

0.8%. What about the other 90%? This is one of the points. We have no

chance, we have to remain. Let the panel take that.

I'll audience have strong views. There has been misleading

information about how much we could spend, the reality is, unless you

come out of the single market, we cannot have this bonanza of money.

There is a variety of issues. The question of the EU funds and

university funding, the common agricultural policy, that is our

money which we sent a cross into the EU part and a portion of it comes

back to us with a whole load of Cobbler gated rules and regulations

on how we spend it. It is difficult, Northumberland county council on the

broadband question when we look to get investment, we nearly had not

take it because it was so compensated and it has proved to be

a nightmare. It would be more sensible to have... You have to put

your Government in and you throw them out if you don't like them...

The farmers in your area. We put 6 billion in and forget 3.8 back. The

NFU wants to stay in. That is possible. The latest poll shows just

over 60% of farmers are intending to vote Leave. The north-east sees a

proportion of these funds, which are spent across a variety, because we

are the poorest region of the north-east, but as we get accession

countries, we will be less poor, and the money will be spread into other

countries. I would rather have that decision in Whitehall. Good luck to

anybody who thinks you will get this money from the central London

Government. You might want a Labour Government, you have not got them,

you have got the Conservatives. You will not get that money. For your

point on... People coming from round the world, they are coming now, and

we are in the U. It is a totally irrational argument.

You can join in the conversation on Twitter, #EUrefLookNorth.

So far there's been an exchange of views on whether or not

being in the EU is good for jobs and the region's economy

and if we rely heavily on grants from the EU.

Let's take another question from our audience.

It's from Judith Godfrey from Sunderland.

We have a problem with the levels of immigration now, so how

will our infrastructure cope if we stay in the EU?

I am sure a lot of ordinary Labour voters are raising this on the

doorstep with Labour MPs, they are telling me they are, infrastructure

and jobs. My father came from Nigeria to Newcastle to study in the

50s, he met my mum, her father came from Ireland to Newcastle in the

20s, so he was an economic migrant. We all experience immigration in

different ways. Whether that is because we are sending our children

to schools where there are immigrants' children, whether we are

shopping at companies like Marks Spencer or going on flights with

easyJet, started by immigrants... I do happy about the levels of

migration being sustainable? We have immigration, and the benefits and

the challenges are not equally shared. The idea that leaving the EU

will decrease immigration, the majority is from outside the EU, ...

That is true. Leaving the EU will not change wars, famine, climate

change. These are the factors which are driving immigration. I don't

have a simple answer to the challenges, but I have many

different ones are. Let's invest in our public services, let's work with

the other EU partners to improve security, invest in public

resources. You are hearing a list of... I am tired of Labour

politicians evading the issue of immigration. You did not talk about

the problems that it causes, and there are huge problems. We are not

talking about immigration per se, or your family coming from Nigeria, we

are talking about a net total of 330,000 people every year going up.

It is coming down. It is 1.6% of the population in this region not born

in the UK. There is a huge problem, two kinds of problems, one is the

internal movement of EU workers to this country, which has seen a

lowering of the wage for the poorest people in this country, particularly

so on the east coast, particularly Lincolnshire, Essex and East Anglia,

massive reductions in some areas, some incomes have gone down by 20 to

30%, because this Government and the EU uses cheap Labour for the incomes

policy on the slide to make sure people stay poor. The other problem

is the insane policy taken by Angela Merkel to open the doors to as many

refugees as wish to come here. It is not sustainable. It has caused

problems. Appalling scaremongering. What happened in Germany with Syrian

refugees is not happening in Britain. Very few migrants in this

part of the world. We are not in Schengen. So white are you raising

it? You cannot get through border control. The question on

infrastructure, it is true the NHS is ailing and waiting lists are

going up, good schools are full, there are not enough council houses,

but the answer is to invest and put the money in it. The answer comes

back to the Government in London, not what is happening in the EU or

migrants. People have a right to be angry about a lot of things that are

happening in their lives, low wages, zero hours contracts, temporary

contracts, difficulty getting housing, but it is ridiculous when

we are kept in courage is to blame the EU and migrants. They are not to

blame. The House of Lords committee, the migrant advisory committee, the

Bank of England committee all said... Kevin Maguire knows better

than any of these institutions! Totally discredited. Let's hear from

the audience, if we please code. This gentleman here, you have been

dying to get in. It is worth listening to your colleagues, Doctor

Sarah Wollaston, who was a Brexit supporter until two weeks ago, she

came out and supports Remain, because she is ashamed of the Leave

campaign's misrepresentation of the so-called migration problem, and the

NHS. She has great integrity, and for those supporting Leave, read her

statement, it is damning. One more. Everybody talks about migration as

being people from the EU coming here, but we don't hear much about

people, British people, who have gone to the EU to work or study or

retire, to spend their winter there, I would like to ask the panel, what

will happen to them if we have a Leave vote?

What we hear about the immigration and that, right, as far as what is I

know, from what I have heard, if you have got an EU passport we cannot

stop you from coming into this country, right? Why don't they turn

around and say well, right you are, what ever benefits you get from your

country, we will give you hear, no more, no less. That includes

housing, family allowance, the lot. I am sure the Prime Minister has

tried to take and from that. Gentleman in the short, last one.

The population forecast by my reckoned means the environment,

houses, schools, hospitals, prisons, roads, would need to be a third

beggar to cope. I just don't do I want to see all our cities and towns

and villages being one third beggar. APPLAUSE

-- one third larger. It is the dog whistle argument, to

try to rally votes, migration. It is part of the thing which needs to be

considered. The question is how do we manage the growth we will need in

investment and it's difficult to do that when the free movement of the

500 million and growing EU passport holding people who can come here and

will come here all the more, we've a national living wage which is

extremely attractive to someone who might want to come here. The key

point is we cannot determine as a nation how many come in, so non-EU

immigration is now controlled very tightly and there are many

visitors... It went up in the last figures. I am not saying we don't

stop them coming. The point is we control them. The question you have

too asked yourself is whether you would rather... Why have you not

done anything about it? Non-EU immigration is not controlled! THEY

TALK OVER EACH OTHER It hasn't been stopped because we have gaps, but

the point system is very tight on non-EU immigration but there is no

points system, no control. As a porter would you other vote to be

out of the system which doesn't give us any control over EU migration

would you rather continue to have the flow of migrants, many of whom

are young people coming to work and bringing skills but we don't have

any determining decision over it. The numbers are going up and we are

looking at a city the size of Newcastle being built every year for

the next 30 years and that will take real investment. As long as might

you cannot control migration is the allegation here, what is an

acceptable level of the number of people coming in? You cannot control

immigration from outside the EU, that has been going up. It's been

going up, it's been going up. If there was no immigration from the EU

we would still have exceeded David Cameron's false pledge by an order

of magnitude. So it's very difficult to control immigration because we

live in a global world, immigration from outside the EU, we haven't been

able to get down to the levels David Cameron promised. So what we need to

do is, it's absolutely right, invest in infrastructure, in schools. In

terms of the actual level that is best, that depends on our growing

economy and it depends on the investment we need. You left us with

almost ?1 trillion of debt, where is this magical money going to come

from? And the Conservative government have increased the debts

hugely and still not investing. The problem is what model do you adopt

because if you stay in the market there is still the free movement of

people. I don't think immigration is anywhere near the most important

reason as to why we should leave the EU, the most important reason by a

mile, and the only one for me is democracy. APPLAUSE

I had to say on the issue of immigration I disagree with the chap

over there and what David Cameron has done I think it's absolutely

wrong that a Polish person who comes here and wants to work hard is then

deprived of benefits when the same benefits would apply to other people

in Britain. I think that's wrong. It goes against everything I believe in

as a socialist. But without doubt, it comes back to that same point,

that the migration here has lowered wage rates vary considerably and you

all know this. The people of Britain now this. It's absolutely

disingenuous of the Remain campaign not to accept that. THEY TALK OVER

EACH OTHER It's a very small amount if you study the Bank of England.

Someone like Mike Ashley has lowered wage rates far more than any

migrants. I must move on. I've got to move this on. I am aware many

people want to join in the debate and there will be debates on your

local BBC radio stations in the coming days.

Time for our final question of the evening.

And it's from Ella Doshi, who's a recent graduate

The polls suggest that young people hold the key to this vote,

but how exactly would leaving the EU affect young people?

Kevin Maguire? I think it will reduce their opportunities and if

you are thinking of voting but not sure how, vote for younger people,

talk to your children or grandchildren. I know people whose

parents were around in the Second World War who have their own reasons

for aborting in. Other people might want to be out but think of the

future. It's much better working with your neighbours, cooperating

with other countries, being part of Europe. You can turn your back on

the world if you like and think you can go it alone on your own way but

younger people will pay the price for that in the long run. Why should

a young person in Berwick vote out? I disagree fundamentally with the

view that Europe which is not what we are talking about, we are talking

about the EU which is a political union. We are part of Europe and

that won't change. Young people with great skills from great British

universities will be able to go across the world and work in any

numbers of places. That won't change. I think the key reason for

aborting out is if you believe that democracy is a viable thing created

by Britain and cheered around the world which is something that so

many new members have joined, we do value ours as long as we stay in the

EU because your boat becomes less and less powerful in terms of the

effect you have on the decisions made over you every day. The most

important thing, my son turns 18 next you and I want his whole to

have greater value than it would if we stayed in the EU -- his vote. I

think it is an apt moment to hear from a young person. I will be

obviously voting Remain. I want to challenge what was said about

democracy, in this country how can we talk about democracy when we have

and an elected house of lords and only 37% of people who bothered to

vote voted for your government? So we make it worse by a meaning in the

EU, that is not logical. This is fundamentally about sovereignty and

we have sovereignty, what we have now, what we have now is a share of

sovereignty in the biggest single market in the world and we want to

give that up and be a small island. Complying with the legislation but

having no input. Let's stick with the wider issue of the future for

the younger generation, what do they have to look forward to either as

part of the EU or not? I used to run a youth charity and I want young

people in the north-east to have a job and future. They will opt out of

this referendum if people keep lying to them and saying it's about or

democracy. In the north-east people need a job and the best way to

guarantee a job is by staying in the EU. APPLAUSE

Gentleman on the front row. As a young person I don't want my destiny

and laws to be decided by a faceless Commissioner. Who doesn't know my

life, who's never probably visited to the UK. I want my destiny and

laws to be decided by the MPI vote for and not the president or

Commissioner that I don't I think you're absolutely right and

what the European Commission is doing at the moment is truly

frightening. I want young people, the next generation to live in a

proper democracy where they have accountable politicians and what the

EU is doing at the moment, Jean-Claude Juncker, what they are

doing is scary, he has said any country which elects a right-wing

populist government will not be like to make decisions within the EU,

will be stripped of its decision-making and may face fines.

They are doing it to Poland and don't believe it stops there. If you

are on the left they will believe you as well, if you support an

anti-austerity party you will be Billy beer as well. They took these

powers upon themselves in 2014 -- you will be bullied there as well.

This actually happened, I am not scaremongering, this is what

happened. Young people within the EU, why should they vote to stay? I

think the young lady put it very well, it is about the economy and

their economic future, that's what most parents want for their kids and

it's what I want for my constituents. The Leave campaign can

talk about it being all right in time, there will be problems early

on, you don't know what it will look like in the beginning but in time we

will be better off but let me tell you that people who suffer when

things go wrong economically are not the wretch, they are poor people,

they are young people who don't yet have a job -- are not the rich. We

will hear a lot more of this in the next ten days. I'm sorry we've run

out of time, we could go on for far longer. That is it from everyone in

the studio tonight, the panel and the audience, if you want to take

part in further debate there will be more on your BBC local radio

stations before polling day. Good night.