Caroline Shenton BOOKtalk


Caroline Shenton

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And there was a time when a lesser figure then Benjamin Disraeli said

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that an architect be hanged. The current Houses of Parliament rose

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from the ashes of the fire and that story is told today. Her is Mr

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Barry's war Caroline, the Mr Barry was the architect of the Victorian

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building the we knew today and he worked with a medievalist designer.

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What was the nature of the partnership? Who did what? Charles

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Barry was the architect in charge. He brought people into help him.

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Barry was a brilliant classical architect, fantastic at ground

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planning. To get the Gothic detailing that was required by the

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rules. Thereafter, they had a partnership on and off in creating

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this amazingly famous building. The Gothic detailing is what makes the

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Palace of Westminster, isn't it? The gold, murals, the statue. It is what

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makes the Palace of Westminster on the service. You have to remember

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this is extraordinary in terms of its planning, the way it is laid

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out. The way that people can circulate around it. That was

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Barry's real genius and contribution to the overall plan. He was the

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person who was having to deal with all of the politics, the reputation

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issues associated with building the Palace as well. This was a great

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mega project of its error with vast amount of public and political and

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royal -- its era. Did it ever buckle under the strain of scrutiny? It

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started off well. His co-architect regarded Barry as his mental. Both

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men were geniuses. They were the only men who understood each other.

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-- was his mental. They had very different personalities, Barry was

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very measured, tactful, good politics. Kept to a regular routine.

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Had a very stable home life throughout the course of the

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building. His co-architect was very emotional. Had affairs, married

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three times. You always know what he's thinking about. His letters

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survive and you have a really good of the ups and downs of where he

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was. Barry's correspondence was destroyed either by him by his son

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's subsequent to his death. We have do understand him through first-hand

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accounts. We never hear his voice. Let's go back to the great fire that

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destroyed Parliament. Was it immediately obvious that they were

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going to rebuild on that site? There was considerable debate following

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the fire as to whether Parliament should move away altogether. There

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have been suggestions leading up to the fire that Regents Park should be

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chosen. In fact became actually offered Buckingham Palace. He hated

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Buckingham Palace. That was rejected. Within five days of the

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fire itself, the person in charge of royal palaces at the time decided

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that there would be temporarily changes built on site for the

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duration of any rebuilding and then they let a competition happen to

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enable an architect to come forward. By a competition? One of the

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interesting things about the competition brief was that it had to

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be in a Gothic or Elizabethan style. Why a competition, why a style?

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Initially it was thought that it was going to go to Robert Smirk. He was

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a favourite of Robert Peel, the Prime Minister. There was a

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firestorm of complaint in the press and the public realm and so Smack

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didn't get the job and it was decided that there would be a public

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competition. Anyone could enter and would pay a pound to get the ground

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plans for the site. One of the key roles set by the members was that it

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should be in the Gothic or Elizabethan style and by Elizabethan

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they meant perpendicular Gothic, like you get at Kings College

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Cambridge, for example. One of the reasons they said that in the

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competition was that the ruined Chapel of Saint Stephen 's revealed

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again because of the fire had come back to life having been bad back,

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it was their right on the doorstep. As they would debating what was

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going to be happening. I think that influenced them tremendously in

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terms of what style. So they had a Gothic masterpiece right in the

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middle of the site. Yes, tottering. Still there. You talked a lot

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earlier about how Barry's genius meant that the public could

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circulate around and that of course is a complete contrast to what had

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gone before because the old Palace of Westminster which was destroyed

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by fire was basically a higgledy-piggledy conglomeration of

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buildings over the centuries. Was there an idea that there was

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something much better organised in the future needed? Yes. Much bigger

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spaces, dedicated division lobbies, enough space for libraries, four

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restaurants. It is to meet constituents. It was actually very

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specifically laid out in the competition rules what was required.

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How good was the competition entries that came in Chris McCann many? 97

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entries. --? How many? Some were completely mad. Somewhat pedestrian.

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A handful will really interesting. The judges found themselves having

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to look through 1400 different drawings from the competitors to

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decide who was going to win. What sort of Houses of Parliament might

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we have had? Thomas Hopper who was a favourite architect of George IV put

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forward a scheme where he was going to doubles and Stephen's Chapel and

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have the old building being the new House of Commons and the new

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duplicate Saint Stephen's coming the House of Lords. He also proposed

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doubling Westminster Hall. I can't imagine how that would have worked

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or what they would have been used for. His scheme was pretty wacky.

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And an entry that didn't get sent in is portrayed in a painting by an

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architect called JM Gandhi and he has created a giant classical

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Sennett house in St James's Park for the House of Lords which is an

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absolutely hilarious thing. Extraordinary designs that have come

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forward. Barry wins it. Incidentally, Augustus Pugin was to

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timing him at this point working for another designer. 'S right. To make

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one was known as being very good -- Augustus Pugin was known for being

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very good at Gothic design. He was doing the whole design on his other

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one, but Barry had his design and he asked Augustus Pugin to add to it.

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He would change Augustus Pugin's designed after he received the extra

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things that Augustus Pugin had put on. It was a melding of the two

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men's genius. And Barry and Augustus Pugin won hands down. It was thought

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to be the outstanding entry. Augustus Pugin was not credited. It

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was Barry's name that when Ford as the architect. That was the start of

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a quarter of a century long project. It was not smooth sailing the whole

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way through. Augustus Pugin went for three years to do his own

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architectural project... Practice and then Barry asked to come back in

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the middle of the 18 1840s with rooms that he was having problems

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with, particularly the Royal throne. Augustus Pugin came back in the

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mid-18 40s and initially there collaboration was very friendly. As

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the pressure of the project continued, the money started to run

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out, Barry had to cut Augustus Pugin's salary as well as his own.

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And poor old Augustus Pugin, unbeknownst to everybody, had this

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mystery illness which turned out in the end to be syphilis and by the

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time of his death at the age of 40, it had got to his brain and had

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turned him in Saint. A lot of the mood swings, a lot of the ups and

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downs that you see in his correspondence are because of his

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mental health failing terribly. Augustus Pugin came to a wretched

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end, but Barry came to a sticky one as well. All the interested parties

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trying to get their pet schemes in. Tell us about that. The most

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notorious one was the ventilation schemes of a Scottish chemist called

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Doctor David Boswell read, he was brought in as the condition an

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expert over Barry's head and proceeded to punch holes in Barry's

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designed to create great events through the palace itself that

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compromise the fireproofing that Barry had put in very carefully to

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ensure that there wasn't going to be a repeat of 1834. In fact, we are

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still living with that legacy today because it is those pence that

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Boswell read put in there whenever used, that are filled with all the

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obsolete wiring and pipework and asbestos that mean that today the

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Houses of Parliament need restoration and all that needs to be

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ripped out. That is not the only problem. There is a problem with Big

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Ben, the bell, which cracked. Yes, Big Ben broke twice. The first Big

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Ben was cast in Stockton appointees, it managed to make its way on a

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boat. It was pulled across Westminster Bridge by a team of 16

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white horses to great clapping crowds and then it was wrong for a

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year on the ground in new Palace Yard to test it and just a few days

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before it was due to be installed, it cracked. That had to be broken up

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and the second Big Ben was recast. It turned up at Westminster, it was

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fine after the test readings, but then it was discovered that it was

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too big to get into the base of the tower. It had to be tipped on its

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side and pushed in sideways. Winch tap. It was righted at the top and

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once it started to ring it cracked again. It is still there. They

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turned it a bit. Meanwhile, the MPs weren't too sold on the new common's

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chamber that Barry had designed for them, either? They complained

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bitterly about the acoustics. That is where they suggested hanging him.

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Yes, why it was so expensive, why it had taken so long and they demanded

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that he lowered the ceiling of the chamber to improve the sound

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quality. He did, but that involved cutting through Augustus Pugin's

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stained-glass window design that he was so furious that he refused to

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ever set foot in the common's chamber. As it began to emerge from

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the wreckage of the original parliamentary buildings, did people

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start to like it or see the point of it once they could see at emerging?

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Epic the public was always behind it and particularly the celebrities

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that Barry brought in across European royal houses absolutely

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adored it. It became the must see site of London for royal visitors

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coming to see Queen Victoria. It was really the politicians, the

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Government, who were constantly complaining about the building.

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There were casualties along the way, by spectacularly the painted chamber

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which had started life as the bedroom of King Henry the third,

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full of medieval murals as the name suggests and that was just casually

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knocked down as the work went on. Yes. That was the temporary House of

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Lords. All the paintings had been burned away by the fire itself, but

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the walls were found to be sturdy enough to be able to be reroofed as

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this temporarily Shaq, if you like. It was swept away in 1851. As well

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as all the other old buildings that weren't kept. Westminster remains

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and the undercroft Chapel, as This whole complex has evolved and

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we are into another phase of redevelopment. Another era of

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restoration and renewal to get the building into shape. Should the

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people conducting that look on this tale and tremble? Well, there are

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lessons from history but they are really lessons from any major

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building programme. One of the interesting proposals coming out of

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the joint committee on the restoration and renewal of the

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Houses of Parliament is that there should be a delivery authority, like

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the Olympic delivery authority that was so successful, and had a rehab

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that in the 19th century that would have solved a lot of his problems.

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It was never quite clear to him who was his client? Was it the office of

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woods, was it the Government, was at the Treasury, was at the individual

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MPs, was at the Prime Minister? Understanding the governance between

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who is in charge and he was delivering is really important, I

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think that is what the delivery authority is designed to do. You

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have written about the great fire that destroyed the original

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buildings Comey you have now described the emergence of the vote

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Tory and Palace of Westminster. Can we look forward to -- of the

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Victorian Palace of Westminster. Can we look forward to volume three? I'm

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still working on what that might be! Thank you for joining us. Book talk

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will be back again next week, do join us then.

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It is frustrating when the FBI refuses to answer this committee's

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questions. But leaks relevant information to the media. In other

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words, they don't talk to us, but somebody talks to the media.

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Director Comey, have you ever been an anonymous source in news reports

:17:05.:17:10.

about matters relating to the Trump investigation or the Clinton

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investigation?

:17:12.:17:12.

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