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Hello and welcome again to Conversations. | 0:00:15 | 0:00:18 | |
My guest today is a woman whose journey through life | 0:00:18 | 0:00:21 | |
has taken her from a convent school education in Bath | 0:00:21 | 0:00:24 | |
to the benches of the House of Commons, | 0:00:24 | 0:00:26 | |
from the offices of government to the stage of the Royal Opera House | 0:00:26 | 0:00:29 | |
and the Strictly Come Dancing studio. | 0:00:29 | 0:00:33 | |
Somewhere along the way, this once-controversial political figure | 0:00:33 | 0:00:36 | |
has veered dangerously close to becoming a national treasure. | 0:00:36 | 0:00:39 | |
She once described herself as the Westminster oddball, | 0:00:39 | 0:00:43 | |
who was so unaccountably popular in the country. | 0:00:43 | 0:00:46 | |
She is Ann Widdecombe. | 0:00:46 | 0:00:47 | |
-Ann Widdecombe, welcome back... -Thank you. -..to Westminster. | 0:00:47 | 0:00:51 | |
When you come back, does it feel like the return of the native? | 0:00:51 | 0:00:56 | |
-Do you think this is your home? -No, not at all. | 0:00:56 | 0:00:58 | |
I got the point of exit right. | 0:00:58 | 0:01:00 | |
If I'd gone earlier, I would have missed it. | 0:01:01 | 0:01:04 | |
If I'd gone later, I would have been very jaded. | 0:01:04 | 0:01:07 | |
I actually got the point of leaving right | 0:01:07 | 0:01:08 | |
and therefore I've left | 0:01:08 | 0:01:12 | |
and just as when I had finished with politics, | 0:01:12 | 0:01:15 | |
I accepted that I'd left and that I could go on and do things | 0:01:15 | 0:01:18 | |
like Strictly, etc, so now this is a part of my past, | 0:01:18 | 0:01:22 | |
but it's not a part of my present. | 0:01:22 | 0:01:24 | |
-We're at the start of a new political term. -We are. | 0:01:24 | 0:01:26 | |
Is there not part of you that thinks, | 0:01:26 | 0:01:28 | |
"Well, I'd like to be in there, in the fray"? | 0:01:28 | 0:01:30 | |
Even if it was in the House of Lords... | 0:01:30 | 0:01:31 | |
Well, I'm profoundly grateful | 0:01:31 | 0:01:33 | |
that I wasn't there during the period of coalition. | 0:01:33 | 0:01:35 | |
-I don't think I would've done well in coalition at all. -Why not? | 0:01:35 | 0:01:40 | |
I don't like not knowing where we're going. | 0:01:41 | 0:01:45 | |
I think when a government's been elected, | 0:01:45 | 0:01:47 | |
you want a programme, you want to set that programme out. | 0:01:47 | 0:01:50 | |
When you're in coalition, very often the tail is wagging the dog, | 0:01:50 | 0:01:53 | |
but I will add that I thought | 0:01:53 | 0:01:55 | |
the Liberals suffered quite unfairly from being in coalition. | 0:01:55 | 0:01:58 | |
My view was it was the responsible thing for everybody to do. | 0:01:58 | 0:02:01 | |
I mean, I thought Cameron was right | 0:02:01 | 0:02:03 | |
because the economy was in such a parlous state. | 0:02:03 | 0:02:06 | |
If you remember, there was no money left, | 0:02:06 | 0:02:08 | |
according to a departing Labour minister. | 0:02:08 | 0:02:10 | |
-That's Liam Byrne's famous note. -Indeed. "No money left," he said. | 0:02:10 | 0:02:14 | |
And it was not a situation in what you wanted was to have | 0:02:14 | 0:02:18 | |
a minority government for, say, six months | 0:02:18 | 0:02:21 | |
and then another general election. | 0:02:21 | 0:02:23 | |
I don't think the markets would have stood it. | 0:02:23 | 0:02:25 | |
So I thought he and Clegg were right to say, | 0:02:25 | 0:02:27 | |
"OK, we'll manage a coalition," but of course, | 0:02:27 | 0:02:30 | |
that was never going to be popular with the followers of either side | 0:02:30 | 0:02:34 | |
and I think the Liberals paid for it disproportionately badly. | 0:02:34 | 0:02:38 | |
-So you've no regrets? -None. | 0:02:38 | 0:02:40 | |
You wouldn't like to come back if the call was to say, "Oh, Ann, | 0:02:40 | 0:02:45 | |
"we need you come to come back to be in the House of Lords?" | 0:02:45 | 0:02:47 | |
-Would you come back? -Oh, of course I would have done. | 0:02:47 | 0:02:50 | |
Yes, of course I would have done | 0:02:50 | 0:02:52 | |
and I don't think I'm revealing anything too much when I say that | 0:02:52 | 0:02:55 | |
initially I was hopeful that that was going to happen. | 0:02:55 | 0:02:59 | |
But it didn't, and, as I say, you know, | 0:02:59 | 0:03:01 | |
I can always accept when something is over, | 0:03:01 | 0:03:04 | |
so I settled down to a new life. | 0:03:04 | 0:03:06 | |
And your new life, is that the life of a celebrity? | 0:03:06 | 0:03:09 | |
Do you think of yourself as a celebrity? | 0:03:09 | 0:03:11 | |
No, I don't think of myself as a celebrity. | 0:03:11 | 0:03:12 | |
It's the most ghastly word. | 0:03:12 | 0:03:14 | |
Anyway, I'm never quite sure what a celebrity is. | 0:03:14 | 0:03:16 | |
I mean, when I was growing up, you were celebrated for doing something. | 0:03:16 | 0:03:19 | |
You were a celebrity if you were Captain Scott, | 0:03:19 | 0:03:23 | |
not that he was in my time, or Edmund Hillary, you know, | 0:03:23 | 0:03:26 | |
you were a celebrity if you had done something like that. | 0:03:26 | 0:03:30 | |
But now it's used quite vacuously, | 0:03:30 | 0:03:32 | |
sometimes to describe people who have done nothing at all. | 0:03:32 | 0:03:36 | |
They've just come onto the scene by way of a reality programme. | 0:03:36 | 0:03:39 | |
Do you think your appearance on Strictly Come Dancing | 0:03:39 | 0:03:42 | |
gave you that national treasure status? | 0:03:42 | 0:03:45 | |
Did you feel people reacting to you in a different way? | 0:03:45 | 0:03:49 | |
I think a lot of people were surprised because, of course, | 0:03:49 | 0:03:53 | |
when you're a politician, | 0:03:53 | 0:03:54 | |
it isn't appropriate to do some things. | 0:03:54 | 0:03:56 | |
I was asked to do Strictly Come Dancing for years | 0:03:56 | 0:03:58 | |
while I was actually in the House of Commons. | 0:03:58 | 0:04:00 | |
I said, "No, absolutely not." | 0:04:00 | 0:04:02 | |
Time-wise, dignity-wise, | 0:04:02 | 0:04:05 | |
it wouldn't have been remotely appropriate. | 0:04:05 | 0:04:08 | |
So that is a side of you that you can't show. | 0:04:08 | 0:04:11 | |
Certainly I wouldn't have gone into pantomime | 0:04:11 | 0:04:13 | |
while I was in the House of Commons. | 0:04:13 | 0:04:14 | |
I was offered that as well at one point, | 0:04:14 | 0:04:16 | |
so you do need to keep the two things separate. | 0:04:16 | 0:04:19 | |
If you're doing a serious job of work, | 0:04:19 | 0:04:21 | |
you need to be a serious person, | 0:04:21 | 0:04:22 | |
you need to present a serious aspect to the electorate, | 0:04:22 | 0:04:26 | |
but when that's over, then by all means have fun and, you know, | 0:04:26 | 0:04:32 | |
if you've got something you want to do, go and do it. | 0:04:32 | 0:04:35 | |
Isn't a strange British phenomenon, though, | 0:04:35 | 0:04:39 | |
where people who've often had quite a controversial career, | 0:04:39 | 0:04:43 | |
sometimes people who'd had quite challenging views | 0:04:43 | 0:04:46 | |
and they've challenged the status quo | 0:04:46 | 0:04:47 | |
and they've challenged people's thinking, | 0:04:47 | 0:04:50 | |
end up being absorbed by the Establishment | 0:04:50 | 0:04:54 | |
and they become national treasures and it's almost then as though | 0:04:54 | 0:04:58 | |
we don't have to listen to their challenging views any more | 0:04:58 | 0:05:00 | |
because we've put them in a different category? | 0:05:00 | 0:05:02 | |
Well, the interesting thing is that I still do quite | 0:05:02 | 0:05:05 | |
a lot of political interviews and I've still got | 0:05:05 | 0:05:07 | |
a weekly column in a national newspaper, | 0:05:07 | 0:05:10 | |
so I do still put forth political and general views | 0:05:10 | 0:05:14 | |
and I haven't abandoned doing that | 0:05:14 | 0:05:17 | |
and there are people certainly who leaving the Commons | 0:05:17 | 0:05:20 | |
wouldn't dream of going into, if you like, the showbiz side of things. | 0:05:20 | 0:05:25 | |
They just wouldn't do it. | 0:05:25 | 0:05:26 | |
Now, you were a huge hit on that programme | 0:05:26 | 0:05:29 | |
and it confirmed the fact that a lot of people | 0:05:29 | 0:05:30 | |
are really interested in you and they're intrigued by you. | 0:05:30 | 0:05:33 | |
Do you understand why you're such an interesting figure? | 0:05:33 | 0:05:37 | |
Not really, not really. | 0:05:37 | 0:05:39 | |
I mean, I spent 23 years as a politician, | 0:05:39 | 0:05:42 | |
which I had causes that I fought and offices that I had to discharge | 0:05:42 | 0:05:47 | |
and I don't really understand why there was suddenly | 0:05:47 | 0:05:51 | |
that huge swell of warmth as there was when I did Strictly. | 0:05:51 | 0:05:55 | |
You could feel it in the very first programme. | 0:05:55 | 0:05:57 | |
I did a very clodhopping waltz, | 0:05:57 | 0:06:00 | |
I did look a bit happier than Ed Balls managed to look, | 0:06:00 | 0:06:04 | |
but I did a really pedestrian waltz and people loved it. | 0:06:04 | 0:06:07 | |
Would the young Ann Widdecombe in school have thought | 0:06:08 | 0:06:13 | |
-that this was the sort of career she was going to have? -If you... | 0:06:13 | 0:06:16 | |
Never mind school - | 0:06:16 | 0:06:18 | |
if you had told me in the spring of 2010, | 0:06:18 | 0:06:20 | |
when I was getting ready to leave Parliament, | 0:06:20 | 0:06:23 | |
if you'd said to me, then, "Well, Ann, this is how it's going to go. | 0:06:23 | 0:06:26 | |
"You'll be dancing for three months on prime-time television, | 0:06:26 | 0:06:28 | |
"then you're going to be touring the entire UK | 0:06:28 | 0:06:31 | |
"in a live dance show with Craig Revel Horwood, | 0:06:31 | 0:06:34 | |
"then you'll be going into pantomime, | 0:06:34 | 0:06:35 | |
"and oh, yes, by the way, | 0:06:35 | 0:06:37 | |
"you're also going to be on at the Royal Opera House, | 0:06:37 | 0:06:39 | |
I'd have said, "Lie down and have an aspirin." | 0:06:39 | 0:06:42 | |
I wouldn't have believed it then, never mind when I was at school. | 0:06:42 | 0:06:45 | |
So what were your aspirations when you were at school? | 0:06:45 | 0:06:48 | |
To be a politician. I had political aspirations very early on - | 0:06:48 | 0:06:53 | |
initially, for all the wrong reasons, | 0:06:53 | 0:06:55 | |
cos I grew up in the post-war generation, | 0:06:55 | 0:06:58 | |
thus very influenced by Churchill and the immediate past history | 0:06:58 | 0:07:03 | |
and seriously believed when I was 13 or 14 | 0:07:03 | 0:07:07 | |
that all politicians were like Churchill. | 0:07:07 | 0:07:09 | |
I mean, now I say I wish, | 0:07:09 | 0:07:10 | |
but that's what I believed then. | 0:07:10 | 0:07:13 | |
So I was very inspired by that. | 0:07:13 | 0:07:14 | |
By the time I was 20, | 0:07:14 | 0:07:16 | |
I had a much more realistic appreciation of what it was about, | 0:07:16 | 0:07:20 | |
but the ambition remained because by then, | 0:07:20 | 0:07:23 | |
I was very driven to fight socialism. | 0:07:23 | 0:07:25 | |
Of course, if you say that to an 18-year-old today, | 0:07:25 | 0:07:28 | |
they look you as if you've just started speaking Greek or something. | 0:07:28 | 0:07:31 | |
You know, it means nothing, | 0:07:31 | 0:07:33 | |
but in our day socialism wasn't New Labour, it was neo-communism. | 0:07:33 | 0:07:37 | |
So, did your parents consciously seek to influence | 0:07:37 | 0:07:41 | |
your political views, do you think? | 0:07:41 | 0:07:43 | |
No, I don't think so, but people talked politics at home. | 0:07:43 | 0:07:46 | |
You know, it was never a taboo subject or a strange subject | 0:07:46 | 0:07:49 | |
or something that they weren't interested in. | 0:07:49 | 0:07:51 | |
We talked politics at home and largely, as I say, | 0:07:51 | 0:07:55 | |
it was Conservative politics. | 0:07:55 | 0:07:57 | |
For example, you know, we were a family that believed very strongly | 0:07:57 | 0:08:01 | |
in grammar schools, very strongly in grammar schools. | 0:08:01 | 0:08:05 | |
The comprehensives were being talked about in the early '60s | 0:08:05 | 0:08:10 | |
and when I was I was listening, if you like, to the conversation, | 0:08:10 | 0:08:15 | |
and I knew that I believed that people should have the opportunity | 0:08:15 | 0:08:20 | |
to grow tall, | 0:08:20 | 0:08:22 | |
so there were different things around and, of course, | 0:08:22 | 0:08:26 | |
what everybody forgets, | 0:08:26 | 0:08:28 | |
cos it's nearly 30 years since the Berlin Wall came down, | 0:08:28 | 0:08:31 | |
we were in the Cold War. | 0:08:31 | 0:08:32 | |
-Mmm. -You know, the Russians were regarded as a serious threat. | 0:08:32 | 0:08:36 | |
We were in the space race. | 0:08:36 | 0:08:38 | |
We even had our own little Sputniks, | 0:08:38 | 0:08:40 | |
you know, we were in the space race. It was a different world altogether. | 0:08:40 | 0:08:44 | |
These all sound like quite serious dinner table conversation topics. | 0:08:45 | 0:08:50 | |
-Was it a happy childhood? -It was a very happy childhood. | 0:08:50 | 0:08:53 | |
It's one... If not the greatest blessing... | 0:08:53 | 0:08:57 | |
I mean, one is obviously health, but a very close second to that | 0:08:57 | 0:09:01 | |
comes a happy childhood and I think if you have a happy childhood, | 0:09:01 | 0:09:05 | |
you're very well equipped indeed to face life and we did. | 0:09:05 | 0:09:08 | |
It was a nomadic childhood because I was with an Admiralty family. | 0:09:08 | 0:09:12 | |
We still called it that then. | 0:09:12 | 0:09:13 | |
It wasn't the MoD (Naval), it was the Admiralty, | 0:09:13 | 0:09:16 | |
so we moved around every two to three years, | 0:09:16 | 0:09:18 | |
so I'd been to five different schools, for example, | 0:09:18 | 0:09:22 | |
by the time I was 11. | 0:09:22 | 0:09:23 | |
I spent three years in Singapore, so we moved around | 0:09:23 | 0:09:27 | |
a great deal, but, nevertheless, it felt very stable and very safe. | 0:09:27 | 0:09:33 | |
-And you were close to your parents... -Yes. | 0:09:33 | 0:09:36 | |
..all the way through your life, weren't you? | 0:09:36 | 0:09:38 | |
Yes, I was and there is that wonderful period when | 0:09:38 | 0:09:41 | |
they're no longer looking after you and you're not yet looking | 0:09:41 | 0:09:44 | |
after them when you really get to know each other as human beings, | 0:09:44 | 0:09:48 | |
as opposed to just the parent-child relationship, | 0:09:48 | 0:09:51 | |
but, yes, I was and when my father died, | 0:09:51 | 0:09:54 | |
my mother came to live with me. | 0:09:54 | 0:09:55 | |
-Did you have to work hard on managing that relationship? -No. | 0:09:55 | 0:09:59 | |
Were there difficulties or a generation gap? | 0:09:59 | 0:10:02 | |
Oh, I'm sure there was a generation gap, because there always is. | 0:10:02 | 0:10:05 | |
I mean, that's part of family dynamic, | 0:10:05 | 0:10:07 | |
but I also had a grandmother living with us when I was growing up, so if | 0:10:07 | 0:10:11 | |
you want to put it in those terms, there was a double generation gap. | 0:10:11 | 0:10:14 | |
And she told me fascinating stories | 0:10:14 | 0:10:16 | |
which I now wish I'd paid much more attention to | 0:10:16 | 0:10:19 | |
and are one of the reasons why I did the series on this Victorians | 0:10:19 | 0:10:23 | |
or I did the programme on the Victorians, | 0:10:23 | 0:10:25 | |
was to try and see something of what Gran had seen around her. | 0:10:25 | 0:10:29 | |
How difficult was it later on when you had to be, as you say, | 0:10:29 | 0:10:33 | |
looking after your parents? | 0:10:33 | 0:10:35 | |
You've moved from that stage where they can be friends and companions | 0:10:35 | 0:10:38 | |
and then you're having to juggle all sorts of demands | 0:10:38 | 0:10:40 | |
and in effect be a carer as well? | 0:10:40 | 0:10:43 | |
Yes, it was quite difficult, but neither parent really declined | 0:10:44 | 0:10:49 | |
until the last two years of his and her life, neither. | 0:10:49 | 0:10:54 | |
So I didn't have a long period that a lot of people have to go through | 0:10:54 | 0:10:58 | |
when the parents are either physically weak | 0:10:58 | 0:11:00 | |
or they're dementing or whatever it might be. | 0:11:00 | 0:11:03 | |
But obviously responsibilities come along and I'd always said that | 0:11:03 | 0:11:07 | |
if I had to, I would put them before my own career | 0:11:07 | 0:11:10 | |
and indeed I was always glad that I left the front bench when I did | 0:11:10 | 0:11:14 | |
cos it gave me... | 0:11:14 | 0:11:16 | |
My mother was by then living with me | 0:11:16 | 0:11:18 | |
and it gave me those extra years, not entirely with her, | 0:11:18 | 0:11:22 | |
cos I was still in Parliament, but far more with her | 0:11:22 | 0:11:24 | |
than I could ever have been if I was on the front bench. | 0:11:24 | 0:11:27 | |
-Now, let's go back in time a bit. So you had your happy childhood... -Yes. | 0:11:27 | 0:11:30 | |
-..then you went to Birmingham University... -Read Latin. | 0:11:30 | 0:11:32 | |
..and you read Latin and then when you left Birmingham, | 0:11:32 | 0:11:35 | |
-you started all over again? -Mmm. | 0:11:35 | 0:11:37 | |
Now, you went to Oxford and you did an undergraduate degree. | 0:11:37 | 0:11:41 | |
Why did you start again? | 0:11:41 | 0:11:42 | |
I'd always imagined that I was going to spend six years at university | 0:11:42 | 0:11:48 | |
because I had intended to do a PhD | 0:11:48 | 0:11:51 | |
in classics, in some aspect of Roman history, | 0:11:51 | 0:11:55 | |
and I was by then getting very, very interested in politics | 0:11:55 | 0:11:57 | |
and I thought, "Well, look, I was going to do | 0:11:57 | 0:11:59 | |
"these other three years anyway..." | 0:11:59 | 0:12:01 | |
my parents were already prepared for the fact that I was going to do | 0:12:01 | 0:12:04 | |
another three years, "..instead of doing the PhD, | 0:12:04 | 0:12:08 | |
"why not do something political?" which meant starting again, | 0:12:08 | 0:12:12 | |
because I didn't have any qualifications in politics | 0:12:12 | 0:12:14 | |
or economics or anything like that. | 0:12:14 | 0:12:16 | |
And I thought, "Well, if I can get into Oxford | 0:12:16 | 0:12:19 | |
"and also have the Oxford Union | 0:12:19 | 0:12:21 | |
"and the contacts and all rest of it, it'll be well worth doing," | 0:12:21 | 0:12:24 | |
or Cambridge, or Cambridge. | 0:12:24 | 0:12:25 | |
So that's really why I decided to do it. | 0:12:25 | 0:12:29 | |
So the Oxford Union is the famous debating society | 0:12:29 | 0:12:31 | |
at Oxford University that's produced... | 0:12:31 | 0:12:33 | |
-Regarded as a political nursery, yes. -..produced... -William Hague. | 0:12:33 | 0:12:37 | |
I mean, do you think you'd have been a politician if you hadn't | 0:12:37 | 0:12:40 | |
had that Oxford Union experience? | 0:12:40 | 0:12:42 | |
Oh, yes, because it works this way round. | 0:12:42 | 0:12:45 | |
It isn't that people who do well in the Union become politicians, | 0:12:45 | 0:12:50 | |
it's that people who want to become politicians strive to do well | 0:12:50 | 0:12:53 | |
in the Union. | 0:12:53 | 0:12:55 | |
That is the way round that the flow of causation works. | 0:12:55 | 0:12:59 | |
So it is a political nursery. | 0:12:59 | 0:13:01 | |
Anybody with an iota of political ambition goes for it big time, | 0:13:01 | 0:13:04 | |
-though there are exceptions. -Tony Blair didn't. | 0:13:04 | 0:13:07 | |
Tony Blair didn't. And Shirley Williams didn't. | 0:13:07 | 0:13:11 | |
Well, let's have a look at you in the nursery. | 0:13:11 | 0:13:14 | |
If you have a comprehensive school, | 0:13:14 | 0:13:17 | |
even if it's cross streamed with abilities ranging from people | 0:13:17 | 0:13:21 | |
who are very bright indeed to people who, academically speaking, | 0:13:21 | 0:13:26 | |
are not bright at all, I maintain that it's grossly unfair | 0:13:26 | 0:13:30 | |
on those children who aren't particularly bright. | 0:13:30 | 0:13:34 | |
Whereas segregate them, | 0:13:34 | 0:13:35 | |
give them an education suited to their particular needs | 0:13:35 | 0:13:39 | |
and they will feel their place in society, | 0:13:39 | 0:13:41 | |
they will feel what they are being educated for. | 0:13:41 | 0:13:44 | |
-Do you think you've changed much since then? -Not much. Not much. | 0:13:47 | 0:13:51 | |
I don't look quite as good as I looked then, | 0:13:51 | 0:13:55 | |
but in terms of debating style, I don't think that much. | 0:13:55 | 0:13:59 | |
As you will have seen there, I wasn't reading from a script. | 0:13:59 | 0:14:03 | |
So you enjoyed debating. | 0:14:03 | 0:14:04 | |
Have you ever, either then or since, | 0:14:05 | 0:14:08 | |
gone into a debate thinking one thing | 0:14:08 | 0:14:10 | |
and then heard a speech and it's made you change your mind? | 0:14:10 | 0:14:14 | |
No, no one speech has ever made me change my mind. | 0:14:14 | 0:14:18 | |
I mean, speeches give you pause for thought. | 0:14:18 | 0:14:20 | |
There's something terribly wrong if you listen to a argument | 0:14:20 | 0:14:23 | |
and you've dismissed it even before you start, | 0:14:23 | 0:14:26 | |
you do need to listen to arguments. | 0:14:26 | 0:14:28 | |
I mean, over time, things change. | 0:14:28 | 0:14:30 | |
Ten years ago, I wouldn't necessarily have voted Brexit. | 0:14:30 | 0:14:33 | |
I certainly did this time and I would have begun with the view that, | 0:14:33 | 0:14:39 | |
as far as possible, we ought to preserve Sunday as a day apart | 0:14:39 | 0:14:43 | |
and you shouldn't have Sunday trading, looked at the realities, | 0:14:43 | 0:14:48 | |
listened to the debate and came up with a compromise option. | 0:14:48 | 0:14:53 | |
So, yes, I mean, I think arguments influence you, | 0:14:53 | 0:14:57 | |
but it's very slow, it's very gradual. | 0:14:57 | 0:14:59 | |
As I say to people, you haven't thought something through | 0:14:59 | 0:15:02 | |
if your mind's going to be changed on the spot like that. | 0:15:02 | 0:15:04 | |
You just haven't thought it through, | 0:15:04 | 0:15:06 | |
but if you've thought something through and you've reasoned yourself | 0:15:06 | 0:15:09 | |
to a conclusion, it will only be a very slow erosion that takes you | 0:15:09 | 0:15:12 | |
from that and generally brought about by experience. | 0:15:12 | 0:15:16 | |
So is your certainty, | 0:15:16 | 0:15:19 | |
and I think we can say you're a pretty certain person - | 0:15:19 | 0:15:21 | |
you seem to approach issues... By the time you're willing to speak, | 0:15:21 | 0:15:24 | |
you're pretty certain and you're not going to be shifted. | 0:15:24 | 0:15:26 | |
Where does that come from? | 0:15:26 | 0:15:28 | |
Does that come from your religious education | 0:15:28 | 0:15:31 | |
and your religious experience | 0:15:31 | 0:15:33 | |
or does it come from your long education at university? | 0:15:33 | 0:15:36 | |
Certainly I was always taught, both at home and at school, | 0:15:36 | 0:15:40 | |
to say what you think, say what you believe. | 0:15:40 | 0:15:43 | |
Say it with respect, but say it, you know. | 0:15:43 | 0:15:47 | |
If you prefer a poem and the rest of the class prefers another one, | 0:15:47 | 0:15:50 | |
doesn't matter. You prefer that one. | 0:15:50 | 0:15:52 | |
And if we did that, you'd always be praised at school. | 0:15:52 | 0:15:55 | |
If you were the odd one out, they'd always say, "That's brave." | 0:15:55 | 0:15:59 | |
So I grew up with the idea that it's OK to be different, | 0:15:59 | 0:16:03 | |
it's OK as long as I know why I've got this particular view. | 0:16:03 | 0:16:08 | |
But I've always said, "Look, if you hold a view, | 0:16:08 | 0:16:11 | |
"what is the point of holding it if you don't stick by it? | 0:16:11 | 0:16:14 | |
"What's the point in having reasoned yourself to that conclusion, | 0:16:14 | 0:16:18 | |
"having thought about it, having internally or externally | 0:16:18 | 0:16:21 | |
"debated it and you arrive at a view, | 0:16:21 | 0:16:23 | |
"and then you keep quiet about it?" | 0:16:23 | 0:16:25 | |
What's the point of that? What is the point of that? | 0:16:25 | 0:16:27 | |
But now we live in an age in which you really do have to keep quiet | 0:16:27 | 0:16:31 | |
and the only people who don't have to are the parliamentarians. | 0:16:31 | 0:16:34 | |
We can say what we like, we can be against gay marriage, | 0:16:34 | 0:16:38 | |
we can be against abortion, we can want to limit immigration, | 0:16:38 | 0:16:42 | |
we can say what we like. | 0:16:42 | 0:16:44 | |
The ordinary citizen is much less blessed these days | 0:16:44 | 0:16:50 | |
and you can be disciplined at work for something as simple as wearing | 0:16:50 | 0:16:54 | |
a tiny Christian symbol. | 0:16:54 | 0:16:57 | |
I do this quite openly, | 0:16:57 | 0:16:59 | |
why shouldn't everybody be able to do it quite openly? | 0:16:59 | 0:17:01 | |
Political correctness silences a great, you know, | 0:17:01 | 0:17:05 | |
a great body of thought and you actually get people saying to you... | 0:17:05 | 0:17:09 | |
I mean, bright, intelligent people who could hold their own | 0:17:09 | 0:17:12 | |
anywhere saying, "Of course, but you can't say that these days." | 0:17:12 | 0:17:15 | |
And I think, "Yes, you can." | 0:17:15 | 0:17:17 | |
If that's what you think and we do live in a free society, | 0:17:17 | 0:17:20 | |
and I'm now beginning to wonder if we do, | 0:17:20 | 0:17:22 | |
but if you do live in a free society, | 0:17:22 | 0:17:24 | |
this isn't the Soviet Union, | 0:17:24 | 0:17:26 | |
you shouldn't be constrained by state orthodoxy. | 0:17:26 | 0:17:29 | |
You should be able to say what you individually think | 0:17:29 | 0:17:32 | |
and if it's unpopular, you should stand your ground and if you can't | 0:17:32 | 0:17:36 | |
stand your ground, then, yes, by all means, shut up. | 0:17:36 | 0:17:39 | |
I noticed then that when you're talking about parliamentarians, | 0:17:39 | 0:17:42 | |
-you said we... -Yes. -..so in spite of leaving it all behind... | 0:17:42 | 0:17:46 | |
-That's true. -..you're still thinking of yourself there. | 0:17:46 | 0:17:49 | |
I very often when I'm describing the way they vote, | 0:17:49 | 0:17:51 | |
I'd very often hear myself saying, "And the way we vote in..." | 0:17:51 | 0:17:55 | |
Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's 23 years speaking. | 0:17:55 | 0:17:58 | |
It took you quite a while to get here. | 0:17:58 | 0:18:00 | |
You fought a couple of election campaigns before you were | 0:18:00 | 0:18:03 | |
selected for the seat that returned you to Westminster. | 0:18:03 | 0:18:06 | |
Did you encounter a lot of sexism? | 0:18:06 | 0:18:08 | |
Were people not willing to have a young female candidate? | 0:18:08 | 0:18:11 | |
I think I would have encountered it if I'd looked for it. | 0:18:11 | 0:18:14 | |
I never looked for it. | 0:18:14 | 0:18:15 | |
Occasionally it came out and there was one which I always quote. | 0:18:15 | 0:18:18 | |
I went up for interview for one of the Sunderland seats, | 0:18:18 | 0:18:22 | |
I can't remember now if it was South or North, but it was one of them, | 0:18:22 | 0:18:27 | |
and one of the women - it always is the women - | 0:18:27 | 0:18:29 | |
one of the women on the interview panel said to me... | 0:18:29 | 0:18:33 | |
And in those days it's necessary to say that I was 6 stone 12, | 0:18:33 | 0:18:37 | |
and I stand just about over five feet high, so she said to me, "Oh," | 0:18:37 | 0:18:41 | |
and she actually drew a triangle in the air, | 0:18:41 | 0:18:44 | |
"you're very small and frail - are you sure you're up to it?" | 0:18:44 | 0:18:48 | |
When I went out, there in the anteroom | 0:18:48 | 0:18:50 | |
was a decidedly undersized man | 0:18:50 | 0:18:52 | |
and I bet she didn't ask him that, but I never looked for it. | 0:18:52 | 0:18:56 | |
And I went into Parliament expecting to be taken on my own merits. | 0:18:56 | 0:19:01 | |
It never occurred to me that I was a "woman MP", | 0:19:01 | 0:19:04 | |
I was an MP who happened to be a woman, | 0:19:04 | 0:19:07 | |
but I wasn't this peculiar thing called a woman MP, | 0:19:07 | 0:19:10 | |
you know, some great curiosity, | 0:19:10 | 0:19:12 | |
therefore I never found a problem, | 0:19:12 | 0:19:15 | |
but about six months after all the Blair Babes came in, | 0:19:15 | 0:19:17 | |
101 of them, you might as well have had 101 Dalmatians, | 0:19:17 | 0:19:21 | |
and they came in and one of them came up to me in a corridor | 0:19:21 | 0:19:25 | |
and said to me, | 0:19:25 | 0:19:26 | |
"Oh, Ann, isn't it horrible how the men are so rude to us?" | 0:19:26 | 0:19:30 | |
And I said, "Yes, | 0:19:30 | 0:19:32 | |
"and isn't it horrible how they're so rude to each other?" | 0:19:32 | 0:19:35 | |
And she hadn't thought of that, | 0:19:35 | 0:19:36 | |
she just been roughed up in the chamber, she assumed it was | 0:19:36 | 0:19:40 | |
because she was a woman, in fact, it was because she was useless. | 0:19:40 | 0:19:43 | |
So I never went around looking for problems, | 0:19:43 | 0:19:45 | |
therefore I never found them. | 0:19:45 | 0:19:47 | |
The only problem I ever found as a woman MP was | 0:19:47 | 0:19:49 | |
there were insufficient loos. | 0:19:49 | 0:19:50 | |
Most of the political parties now have campaigns to encourage | 0:19:53 | 0:19:57 | |
more women to stand for Parliament, | 0:19:57 | 0:19:59 | |
-would you have sought the help of one of those groups? -No. | 0:19:59 | 0:20:01 | |
I have no problem at all with encouraging women to stand. | 0:20:01 | 0:20:05 | |
My problem is when encouragement turns into positive | 0:20:05 | 0:20:09 | |
discrimination because positive discrimination is another way | 0:20:09 | 0:20:13 | |
of talking about negative discrimination against men. | 0:20:13 | 0:20:16 | |
And I believe that every woman in Parliament should have the right | 0:20:16 | 0:20:19 | |
to look every man in Parliament, downwards, | 0:20:19 | 0:20:23 | |
if the man is Prime Minister, you know... | 0:20:23 | 0:20:26 | |
from the Prime Minister all the way down to the newest MP and to know | 0:20:26 | 0:20:30 | |
that she got there on exactly the same basis as he did. | 0:20:30 | 0:20:33 | |
And if she got there because her path was artificially smoothed, | 0:20:33 | 0:20:37 | |
she is a second-class citizen. | 0:20:37 | 0:20:39 | |
-Do you think of yourself as a feminist? -No. | 0:20:39 | 0:20:42 | |
I was a '70s feminist rather than a '90s feminist. | 0:20:42 | 0:20:45 | |
The '70s feminists wanted equality of opportunity. | 0:20:45 | 0:20:49 | |
I always amaze the next generation down when I talk to them | 0:20:49 | 0:20:53 | |
and I say, "Look, I can remember when it was perfectly lawful for | 0:20:53 | 0:20:56 | |
"an employer to advertise a job and underneath would be two rates | 0:20:56 | 0:20:59 | |
"of pay, one for men and one for women and that was lawful." | 0:20:59 | 0:21:04 | |
And it was perfectly lawful for an employer to say, | 0:21:04 | 0:21:07 | |
"No women need apply." | 0:21:07 | 0:21:09 | |
It was lawful for a landlord to refuse to rent property to a woman. | 0:21:09 | 0:21:12 | |
It was lawful to turn down a woman for a mortgage. | 0:21:12 | 0:21:15 | |
These things were lawful when I was graduating. | 0:21:15 | 0:21:19 | |
So in those days, all I wanted was equality of opportunity. | 0:21:19 | 0:21:23 | |
Did that make you angry? | 0:21:23 | 0:21:25 | |
Well, what I wanted... it made me determined. | 0:21:25 | 0:21:28 | |
I wanted equality of opportunity. | 0:21:28 | 0:21:31 | |
What I and other '70s feminists wanted was - give us the same | 0:21:31 | 0:21:35 | |
opportunities and we will show you we are as good as | 0:21:35 | 0:21:38 | |
or perhaps even better than the men. | 0:21:38 | 0:21:41 | |
'90s feminism had changed completely. | 0:21:41 | 0:21:44 | |
It was then a massive whinge. | 0:21:44 | 0:21:46 | |
And a demand for all sorts of concessions to be made. | 0:21:46 | 0:21:50 | |
It was more or less saying actually, we failed on equal ground. | 0:21:50 | 0:21:56 | |
Now we want the playing field tilted towards us. | 0:21:56 | 0:21:59 | |
We want positive discrimination, we want this, we want that. | 0:21:59 | 0:22:03 | |
No, it's not what I see as equality. | 0:22:03 | 0:22:05 | |
And in fact, I think it's pathetic, pathetic. | 0:22:05 | 0:22:08 | |
So, how were you received | 0:22:10 | 0:22:12 | |
when you did get into the House of Commons in 1987? | 0:22:12 | 0:22:15 | |
That was when Mrs Thatcher was Prime Minister. | 0:22:15 | 0:22:17 | |
Yes. Yes, I got the last three years of Thatcher. | 0:22:17 | 0:22:20 | |
-So what was the mood then? -The mood was extremely upbeat. | 0:22:20 | 0:22:24 | |
I mean, we were in the middle of the Lawson boom, if you think about it. | 0:22:24 | 0:22:29 | |
We had just won a third term which, you know, | 0:22:29 | 0:22:33 | |
in those days was quite something to have done. | 0:22:33 | 0:22:35 | |
We were very, very buoyant and we became even more buoyant as | 0:22:35 | 0:22:40 | |
it was clear that the Cold War was coming to an end. | 0:22:40 | 0:22:44 | |
The future suddenly looked very bright. | 0:22:44 | 0:22:47 | |
Gorbachev looked human compared to the miseries that we'd had in | 0:22:47 | 0:22:50 | |
the Kremlin before. | 0:22:50 | 0:22:52 | |
So there was a huge optimism about, an economic optimism, | 0:22:52 | 0:22:56 | |
a party political optimism, an international optimism. | 0:22:56 | 0:23:00 | |
It was a very, very buoyant time. | 0:23:00 | 0:23:03 | |
It was also the time when everybody believed | 0:23:03 | 0:23:05 | |
they were going to be a millionaire by the time they were 30, | 0:23:05 | 0:23:07 | |
you know, there was huge enterprise. | 0:23:07 | 0:23:10 | |
There was an enormous enterprise culture in the economy at that time. | 0:23:11 | 0:23:15 | |
So, it's a time I remember with some affection but of course it | 0:23:15 | 0:23:21 | |
didn't last and what I always say, | 0:23:21 | 0:23:23 | |
and I say this to my great-nephews and great-nieces, | 0:23:23 | 0:23:26 | |
"Look, good times and bad times have one thing in common, | 0:23:26 | 0:23:30 | |
"they never last." | 0:23:30 | 0:23:31 | |
-Was it exciting? -Oh, very. | 0:23:31 | 0:23:34 | |
But I suspect new MPs always find it exciting, always. | 0:23:34 | 0:23:37 | |
I remember sitting in the House of Commons, the members' dining room | 0:23:37 | 0:23:42 | |
in the House of Commons and listening to two older MPs. | 0:23:42 | 0:23:46 | |
There was an MP called Gilroy Bevan | 0:23:47 | 0:23:50 | |
and John Butterfill, who had gone on into my time quite a lot. | 0:23:50 | 0:23:56 | |
And sitting at lunch with them and they were discussing when | 0:23:56 | 0:24:00 | |
they were going to leave. | 0:24:00 | 0:24:02 | |
And I thought, "How can they be talking about leaving? | 0:24:02 | 0:24:06 | |
"They don't want to go out. | 0:24:06 | 0:24:07 | |
"They only ones to go out feet first, surely? | 0:24:07 | 0:24:10 | |
"Why are they having this discussion?" | 0:24:10 | 0:24:13 | |
And then in my last term I remember talking to Danny Kawczynski, | 0:24:13 | 0:24:16 | |
who was a new MP, | 0:24:16 | 0:24:18 | |
talking about leaving and he was saying, "I can't imagine leaving," | 0:24:18 | 0:24:21 | |
so I think it's always exciting for a new MP and it should be. | 0:24:21 | 0:24:25 | |
Now, you were there for one of the great moments, I suppose, | 0:24:25 | 0:24:29 | |
of political history of the late 20th century. | 0:24:29 | 0:24:31 | |
-The downfall of... -Of Thatcher. -..of Mrs Thatcher. | 0:24:31 | 0:24:34 | |
I'm not sure... Has there ever been a time really to compare with that? | 0:24:34 | 0:24:38 | |
Well, not in my time. | 0:24:38 | 0:24:40 | |
I mean, there may have been in the past history. | 0:24:40 | 0:24:42 | |
I'm sure that was. | 0:24:42 | 0:24:44 | |
We forget now that Churchill was, you know, hanging by a thread | 0:24:44 | 0:24:46 | |
at one point when the war was going badly. | 0:24:46 | 0:24:49 | |
We forget that. | 0:24:49 | 0:24:50 | |
But certainly in my lifetime, | 0:24:50 | 0:24:52 | |
no, there's never been a moment quite like that one. | 0:24:52 | 0:24:56 | |
And it stirred up a huge amount of emotion. | 0:24:56 | 0:24:59 | |
The men were all very upset. | 0:24:59 | 0:25:02 | |
They weren't just angry, they were terribly upset. | 0:25:02 | 0:25:04 | |
I've never mopped up so many male tears in Westminster as I did | 0:25:04 | 0:25:07 | |
during the fall of Thatcher. | 0:25:07 | 0:25:09 | |
But also there was the sense of well, history is about to change. | 0:25:09 | 0:25:12 | |
And a sense of disbelief. | 0:25:14 | 0:25:15 | |
I was quite disbelieving. | 0:25:15 | 0:25:16 | |
I thought, "Look, we've achieved all of this. | 0:25:16 | 0:25:19 | |
"And we've done all of this thanks to this one person. | 0:25:19 | 0:25:22 | |
"And now we're going to get rid of her?" | 0:25:22 | 0:25:24 | |
But the Tory party had in those days a real in-built sense of survival. | 0:25:24 | 0:25:30 | |
We were doing very badly in the polls, | 0:25:30 | 0:25:33 | |
largely because of the poll tax. | 0:25:33 | 0:25:35 | |
We were doing very badly. | 0:25:35 | 0:25:37 | |
We sniffed defeat on the horizon. | 0:25:37 | 0:25:39 | |
We weren't going to do it. We weren't going to do it. | 0:25:39 | 0:25:42 | |
And indeed, we got another term as a result of not doing it but | 0:25:42 | 0:25:44 | |
that wasn't how I saw it at the time. | 0:25:44 | 0:25:46 | |
At the time I was absolutely livid. | 0:25:46 | 0:25:49 | |
-You were livid? -Livid. | 0:25:49 | 0:25:50 | |
Did you feel sympathy for Mrs Thatcher? | 0:25:50 | 0:25:53 | |
-Did you... -I felt outrage on her behalf because I felt | 0:25:53 | 0:25:55 | |
she had done so much and achieved so much, I mean, | 0:25:55 | 0:25:58 | |
what was this business of suddenly turning on the leader? | 0:25:58 | 0:26:01 | |
You know, didn't we have a bit more courage than that? | 0:26:01 | 0:26:03 | |
But as I say, the Tory party in those days was pretty good at | 0:26:03 | 0:26:07 | |
surviving, pretty good at it. | 0:26:07 | 0:26:09 | |
We got an unprecedented fourth term. | 0:26:09 | 0:26:11 | |
Did you shed any tears? You were talking about male tears. | 0:26:11 | 0:26:13 | |
No, I didn't cry. But I was very cross. | 0:26:13 | 0:26:16 | |
Now, of course, the Major years were very different in tone and there | 0:26:17 | 0:26:21 | |
was a deliberate attempt to present it as a change of government. | 0:26:21 | 0:26:25 | |
-Yes. -How did that feel as one of the people sitting behind him? | 0:26:25 | 0:26:28 | |
It's very interesting that you use that phrase | 0:26:28 | 0:26:30 | |
"change of government" | 0:26:30 | 0:26:32 | |
because that's exactly what people thought had happened. | 0:26:32 | 0:26:34 | |
We hadn't changed the government, we had changed the Prime Minister. | 0:26:34 | 0:26:37 | |
But everybody thought this was something completely new and | 0:26:37 | 0:26:39 | |
they were prepared to put us in for a fourth term. | 0:26:39 | 0:26:43 | |
How was he with backbench MPs | 0:26:43 | 0:26:45 | |
compared to the way Mrs Thatcher treated you? | 0:26:45 | 0:26:48 | |
Let me describe to you, and this is the way I do always | 0:26:48 | 0:26:51 | |
illustrate it to audiences, who always ask that question. | 0:26:51 | 0:26:55 | |
And I can best describe it | 0:26:55 | 0:26:57 | |
by the way that they used to come through the lobbies. | 0:26:57 | 0:27:00 | |
Now everybody watching this programme knows that the way | 0:27:00 | 0:27:02 | |
you vote in the House of Commons, | 0:27:02 | 0:27:04 | |
you walk along a long corridor called the lobby. | 0:27:04 | 0:27:06 | |
And at the other end, you give your name in to | 0:27:06 | 0:27:08 | |
a clerk and you've voted. | 0:27:08 | 0:27:10 | |
And it takes a quarter of an hour. | 0:27:10 | 0:27:12 | |
You are given a quarter of an hour, rather, to get through the lobby. | 0:27:12 | 0:27:15 | |
Well, nobody hurries through it because it's the one time of | 0:27:15 | 0:27:18 | |
the day when all the party's together. | 0:27:18 | 0:27:20 | |
So if you want to grab hold of a minister or, | 0:27:20 | 0:27:22 | |
if you are in opposition, a spokesman, | 0:27:22 | 0:27:24 | |
or if you want to grab a neighbouring MP because you've | 0:27:24 | 0:27:26 | |
got an issue of mutual interest or you want somebody from | 0:27:26 | 0:27:29 | |
a Parliamentary pressure group or, | 0:27:29 | 0:27:31 | |
for that matter just want somebody to have a drink with, | 0:27:31 | 0:27:33 | |
and you're standing there looking round, | 0:27:33 | 0:27:35 | |
looking for people, not hurrying through. | 0:27:35 | 0:27:37 | |
When Mrs Thatcher came through, her PPS used to go in front of her | 0:27:37 | 0:27:40 | |
and it would be like the parting of the Red Sea. | 0:27:40 | 0:27:42 | |
And then Moses would come through and vote. | 0:27:42 | 0:27:46 | |
When John Major came through, he'd go up to one person and say, | 0:27:46 | 0:27:49 | |
"That was a great speech you made the other night." | 0:27:49 | 0:27:51 | |
He'd go to another person and say, "Is your wife out of hospital? | 0:27:51 | 0:27:54 | |
"Is she better? Is all well?" | 0:27:54 | 0:27:56 | |
He'd go up to somebody else and make some similar comment. | 0:27:56 | 0:27:59 | |
And even at the height of the pressure on that beleaguered | 0:27:59 | 0:28:04 | |
premiership, when you'd think any Prime Minister would be glad | 0:28:04 | 0:28:07 | |
to get through the lobbies and have done with it, | 0:28:07 | 0:28:09 | |
he never came through any other way, | 0:28:09 | 0:28:11 | |
even when we were torn apart by the Maastricht Treaty, | 0:28:11 | 0:28:14 | |
we were beset by sleaze scandals, | 0:28:14 | 0:28:17 | |
our majority was down into the very low single figures, | 0:28:17 | 0:28:20 | |
we didn't know from day to day whether we going to get | 0:28:20 | 0:28:23 | |
our business through, we were trying to whip effectively without | 0:28:23 | 0:28:25 | |
a majority, with all that pressure, | 0:28:25 | 0:28:28 | |
the press were in full cry because we'd been there four terms, | 0:28:28 | 0:28:32 | |
they just wanted us out, they want a change... | 0:28:32 | 0:28:35 | |
All of that going on, he never came through any other way. | 0:28:35 | 0:28:38 | |
He always came through taking an interest in his... | 0:28:38 | 0:28:42 | |
in his colleagues, backbenchers and frontbenchers alike. | 0:28:42 | 0:28:45 | |
So how would you rate him as a leader, | 0:28:45 | 0:28:47 | |
given that you served under | 0:28:47 | 0:28:49 | |
Mrs Thatcher, John Major, William Hague, Iain Duncan Smith, | 0:28:49 | 0:28:52 | |
Michael Howard, David Cameron - | 0:28:52 | 0:28:53 | |
that's a lot of Conservative party leaders. | 0:28:53 | 0:28:55 | |
-Where would you place John Major? -Very high. | 0:28:55 | 0:28:58 | |
And I believe that future historians will rate him very | 0:28:58 | 0:29:02 | |
differently from contemporary ones. | 0:29:02 | 0:29:04 | |
I think a lot of the problem was that people expected him to do | 0:29:04 | 0:29:08 | |
what Thatcher did with a fraction of her majority. | 0:29:08 | 0:29:13 | |
Thatcher had a rebellion a week and it didn't actually matter. | 0:29:13 | 0:29:15 | |
I know I used to rebel from time to time. | 0:29:15 | 0:29:18 | |
Not very often, but I did. | 0:29:18 | 0:29:20 | |
It didn't matter because she could always ride it down | 0:29:20 | 0:29:23 | |
with her majority. | 0:29:23 | 0:29:24 | |
But with John, if there was a rebellion, it could actually | 0:29:24 | 0:29:27 | |
result in a government defeat in the House of Commons. | 0:29:27 | 0:29:30 | |
It was a very... So you had to wheel and deal and bargain in | 0:29:30 | 0:29:33 | |
a way that she never had to. | 0:29:33 | 0:29:35 | |
And one does need to recognise that. | 0:29:35 | 0:29:38 | |
I was a minister throughout the entire Major administration | 0:29:38 | 0:29:42 | |
from the moment he came in to the moment he left. | 0:29:42 | 0:29:45 | |
I was never a minister under Thatcher. | 0:29:45 | 0:29:47 | |
But I know which one I'm glad I was a minister under. | 0:29:47 | 0:29:50 | |
Now, of course, | 0:29:50 | 0:29:52 | |
-the most senior position you held was at the Home Office... -Yes. | 0:29:52 | 0:29:55 | |
..where you were the Prisons Minister. | 0:29:55 | 0:29:57 | |
Most senior office in government. | 0:29:57 | 0:29:59 | |
-Yes. -I was shadow Home Secretary. | 0:29:59 | 0:30:01 | |
Yes, you'd been a junior Pensions Minister and | 0:30:01 | 0:30:03 | |
-a junior Employment Minister. -Then a Minister of State in Employment. | 0:30:03 | 0:30:06 | |
No, I didn't. | 0:30:06 | 0:30:08 | |
In those days it was a waste of time and indeed the department was | 0:30:08 | 0:30:11 | |
eventually abolished. | 0:30:11 | 0:30:13 | |
We didn't have employment issues. | 0:30:13 | 0:30:14 | |
It was... unemployment was actually falling. | 0:30:14 | 0:30:16 | |
You were mainly looking for things to do, whereas in pensions, | 0:30:16 | 0:30:20 | |
there had been plenty to do. | 0:30:20 | 0:30:23 | |
You didn't have to go looking and in prisons, there was plenty to do. | 0:30:23 | 0:30:26 | |
And immigration, | 0:30:26 | 0:30:27 | |
which I was also in charge of at the Home Office. | 0:30:27 | 0:30:29 | |
And there was plenty to do with those and they were genuine | 0:30:29 | 0:30:33 | |
challenging jobs. | 0:30:33 | 0:30:34 | |
Employment was more or less - you made it up as you went along. | 0:30:34 | 0:30:37 | |
Now, we can't talk about the Home Office without talking | 0:30:37 | 0:30:40 | |
about how it all ended. | 0:30:40 | 0:30:41 | |
-"Something of the night." -"Something of the night." | 0:30:41 | 0:30:44 | |
How difficult was it for you to stand up and make that | 0:30:44 | 0:30:47 | |
criticism of Michael Howard, who'd been the Home Secretary, | 0:30:47 | 0:30:51 | |
and you were criticising him over his handling of the prison | 0:30:51 | 0:30:54 | |
system and the way he treated Derek Lewis, | 0:30:54 | 0:30:56 | |
who was the head of the Prisons Agency, | 0:30:56 | 0:30:59 | |
a very long story which we probably don't have to go into details... | 0:30:59 | 0:31:02 | |
We don't have time to go into it. | 0:31:02 | 0:31:04 | |
I'm interested in you breaking ranks and making | 0:31:04 | 0:31:08 | |
that comment, basically to stop him from becoming Conservative leader. | 0:31:08 | 0:31:13 | |
Yes, I waited until after the election. | 0:31:13 | 0:31:15 | |
I did not disturb the party before the election. | 0:31:15 | 0:31:18 | |
I wouldn't have done. | 0:31:18 | 0:31:19 | |
And I particularly wouldn't have done that to John Major. | 0:31:19 | 0:31:22 | |
So I did not resign and I kept my mouth shut | 0:31:22 | 0:31:27 | |
until we had actually lost the election, | 0:31:27 | 0:31:30 | |
but I had always said to a few friends | 0:31:30 | 0:31:33 | |
whom I trusted completely, you know, | 0:31:33 | 0:31:37 | |
"When I am free to speak, I am going to tell all I know about this." | 0:31:37 | 0:31:42 | |
And that is what I decided to do. Now, that may sound just like, | 0:31:42 | 0:31:45 | |
well, that was a decision I took. | 0:31:45 | 0:31:47 | |
It was horrendous. | 0:31:47 | 0:31:49 | |
It was absolutely horrendous. | 0:31:49 | 0:31:51 | |
You don't attack your own side - | 0:31:51 | 0:31:52 | |
you think of Howe attacking Thatcher, you know. | 0:31:52 | 0:31:55 | |
It's the exception that proves the rule. | 0:31:55 | 0:31:57 | |
You don't attack your own side. | 0:31:57 | 0:31:59 | |
And when you do it's got to be for a very serious reason | 0:31:59 | 0:32:02 | |
and I was about to launch into a massive attack on a colleague. | 0:32:02 | 0:32:05 | |
When the Speaker, it was Betty Boothroyd, when the Speaker | 0:32:07 | 0:32:09 | |
called my name, I didn't want to stand up. | 0:32:09 | 0:32:12 | |
One of those moments in Parliament, the only moment I can recall, | 0:32:12 | 0:32:16 | |
when I really didn't want to stand up | 0:32:16 | 0:32:18 | |
and do what I had set myself to do. | 0:32:18 | 0:32:20 | |
Did you have any doubts, did you have a moment of doubt? | 0:32:20 | 0:32:24 | |
No. I knew what I had to do. I knew I was going to do it. | 0:32:24 | 0:32:28 | |
I did talk to a priest at the time because I wanted to be fairly | 0:32:28 | 0:32:31 | |
certain that I wasn't doing it just for the sake of vindictiveness, | 0:32:31 | 0:32:36 | |
just to get back at Michael for what I considered he'd done to | 0:32:36 | 0:32:39 | |
somebody else. But apart from that, I knew what I had to do. | 0:32:39 | 0:32:44 | |
I mean, I had, after all, had 18 months to think about it. | 0:32:44 | 0:32:48 | |
How do you get on with him now? | 0:32:49 | 0:32:51 | |
Well, the interesting thing is that a year after that incident, | 0:32:51 | 0:32:58 | |
a year after that, we were working together in the same Shadow Cabinet. | 0:32:58 | 0:33:03 | |
And he was then Shadow Home Secretary and I was | 0:33:03 | 0:33:07 | |
Shadow Health Secretary, and we worked together. | 0:33:07 | 0:33:10 | |
You don't have to be lovey-dovey to work together. | 0:33:10 | 0:33:13 | |
But I can't believe he regards me with any warmth, and vice versa. | 0:33:13 | 0:33:17 | |
So, you were Shadow Health Secretary under William Hague, | 0:33:17 | 0:33:20 | |
and, as we're about to see, | 0:33:20 | 0:33:22 | |
you became the darling of the Conservative Party Conference. | 0:33:22 | 0:33:25 | |
The famous conference speech. | 0:33:25 | 0:33:26 | |
So we're committed to the National Health Service. | 0:33:26 | 0:33:30 | |
We're committed to the doctors and the nurses who work in it, | 0:33:30 | 0:33:33 | |
we're committed to the patients who use it, which is all of us. | 0:33:33 | 0:33:37 | |
We are committed to making sure that it is adequately funded, | 0:33:37 | 0:33:41 | |
that it is properly run, that it is efficiently managed. | 0:33:41 | 0:33:44 | |
But we're also committed to finding ways of increasing the total | 0:33:44 | 0:33:48 | |
expenditure on health in this country because we prefer | 0:33:48 | 0:33:51 | |
that to ever increasing rationing. | 0:33:51 | 0:33:53 | |
By having the guts to address those questions, | 0:33:53 | 0:33:56 | |
instead of pretending there's some slick, | 0:33:56 | 0:33:58 | |
easy answer that can always be solved through some new | 0:33:58 | 0:34:01 | |
political process, by having the guts to do that, | 0:34:01 | 0:34:04 | |
we are guaranteeing to you the NHS for the next 50 years and beyond. | 0:34:04 | 0:34:09 | |
Thank you. | 0:34:09 | 0:34:10 | |
So, there we go. So, that was the 1988 Conservative Party Conference. | 0:34:17 | 0:34:20 | |
It was, indeed. | 0:34:20 | 0:34:21 | |
The Conservatives had really just started the business of | 0:34:21 | 0:34:24 | |
opposition and there you were, walking around, without any notes. | 0:34:24 | 0:34:28 | |
-That's right. -Is that where David Cameron got the idea from? | 0:34:28 | 0:34:30 | |
He says so. He says so. | 0:34:30 | 0:34:32 | |
In one of his more generous moments, | 0:34:32 | 0:34:34 | |
as he came out after his speech that he did to try and become | 0:34:34 | 0:34:37 | |
leader at conference, he said to me, "I took a leaf out of your book." | 0:34:37 | 0:34:41 | |
And now it's become the big test for a politician, hasn't it, | 0:34:41 | 0:34:43 | |
if they can't walk and talk without standing up behind the lectern? | 0:34:43 | 0:34:47 | |
The interesting thing was that right up until that moment in 1998 - | 0:34:47 | 0:34:50 | |
I was absolutely the first to do it - right up until that moment, | 0:34:50 | 0:34:53 | |
even the big orators like Heseltine, had stood behind | 0:34:53 | 0:34:57 | |
the lectern and read from notes or latterly from an autocue. | 0:34:57 | 0:35:01 | |
But, you see, I'd grown up, although I'm a Catholic, | 0:35:01 | 0:35:04 | |
I'd grown-up in an evangelical household. | 0:35:04 | 0:35:07 | |
And I was used to evangelists like Billy Graham, who paced up | 0:35:07 | 0:35:10 | |
and down the platform, and they hold your attention the whole time. | 0:35:10 | 0:35:13 | |
You don't sort of nod off like this because you're following them. | 0:35:13 | 0:35:16 | |
And I always said to myself, "If ever I do | 0:35:16 | 0:35:19 | |
"a platform speech at conference, that is how I'm going to do it." | 0:35:19 | 0:35:24 | |
Now, nobody wanted me to do it that way. | 0:35:24 | 0:35:26 | |
Michael Ancram, who was party chairman, nearly laid an egg. | 0:35:26 | 0:35:29 | |
He nearly laid an egg at the thought that I was going to do this. | 0:35:29 | 0:35:32 | |
And I said, "I really want to do it this way." | 0:35:32 | 0:35:35 | |
And I insisted, and I did, | 0:35:35 | 0:35:37 | |
because we were only a year in to our opposition and I think we | 0:35:37 | 0:35:41 | |
hadn't yet formed a sort of disciplinary structure that | 0:35:41 | 0:35:44 | |
would have said, "No, Ann, you really can't do that." | 0:35:44 | 0:35:46 | |
So I did, and I grossly ran over time. | 0:35:46 | 0:35:49 | |
But, to me, the interesting thing about that was that I actually told | 0:35:49 | 0:35:52 | |
the truth - you didn't get it in that extract - | 0:35:52 | 0:35:54 | |
but I actually told the truth and I said, "Look, the NHS, you know, | 0:35:54 | 0:35:57 | |
"was a wonderful institution for its first few decades. | 0:35:57 | 0:36:00 | |
"It's not going to last. | 0:36:00 | 0:36:02 | |
"It's not going to last because it was never designed by Bevan | 0:36:02 | 0:36:04 | |
"and the founding fathers of the NHS, | 0:36:04 | 0:36:06 | |
"it was never designed to cope with today's situation, | 0:36:06 | 0:36:10 | |
"today's longevity, today's medical and surgical science." | 0:36:10 | 0:36:14 | |
He seriously believed that it would cause demand to decline, and, | 0:36:14 | 0:36:18 | |
as we all know, demand's gone towards infinity. | 0:36:18 | 0:36:20 | |
Now, when circumstances change, | 0:36:20 | 0:36:23 | |
you have to change the means of meeting them. | 0:36:23 | 0:36:26 | |
And yet nobody will do that, nobody else has said it since, | 0:36:26 | 0:36:31 | |
because there is an emotional engagement between the public and | 0:36:31 | 0:36:35 | |
the health service, and that sort of speech that I made would be | 0:36:35 | 0:36:38 | |
regarded as electoral suicide. | 0:36:38 | 0:36:40 | |
I could get away with it a year after we'd lost an election. | 0:36:40 | 0:36:44 | |
If were a year out from one that everybody thought we were | 0:36:44 | 0:36:46 | |
going to win, I would never have been allowed to make that speech. | 0:36:46 | 0:36:50 | |
The net result is that the health service | 0:36:50 | 0:36:52 | |
lurches from crisis to crisis. | 0:36:52 | 0:36:54 | |
We have not dealt with the underlying cause, which is | 0:36:54 | 0:36:58 | |
that it's wrong for today, therefore we haven't had the debate | 0:36:58 | 0:37:02 | |
about what the options might be, | 0:37:02 | 0:37:04 | |
therefore of course we've never selected any of those options, and | 0:37:04 | 0:37:07 | |
we've never debated the next stage, which is how to get there from here. | 0:37:07 | 0:37:11 | |
That's a pretty long process. I wish we'd started it in 1998. | 0:37:11 | 0:37:14 | |
You were Pensions Minister, you were the Prisons Minister, | 0:37:16 | 0:37:19 | |
you were the Shadow Health Secretary. | 0:37:19 | 0:37:21 | |
Is it frustrating for you that we're still having these debates | 0:37:21 | 0:37:26 | |
and we still haven't sorted out any of these big policy areas? | 0:37:26 | 0:37:29 | |
Yes. | 0:37:29 | 0:37:30 | |
I made a big thing when I was Shadow Home Secretary, | 0:37:30 | 0:37:34 | |
based on my experience in the Home Office, my direct experience, | 0:37:34 | 0:37:38 | |
I had two big planks. | 0:37:38 | 0:37:40 | |
One was the importance of rehabilitation in prisons, | 0:37:40 | 0:37:44 | |
the other was control of the abuse of the asylum system by | 0:37:44 | 0:37:49 | |
practising automatic detention. | 0:37:49 | 0:37:51 | |
That's what I said then. | 0:37:52 | 0:37:53 | |
Automatic detention was carried on by Oliver Letwin in 2005, | 0:37:54 | 0:37:58 | |
Cameron dropped it. | 0:37:58 | 0:37:59 | |
Rehabilitation in prison? | 0:38:01 | 0:38:02 | |
Every Prisons Minster since, whichever party, speaks about it. | 0:38:02 | 0:38:06 | |
What's happening about it, what's being done about it? | 0:38:06 | 0:38:10 | |
Of course it's frustrating. | 0:38:10 | 0:38:13 | |
Every so often I can't resist saying in my Express column when | 0:38:13 | 0:38:15 | |
something is done that I called for donkey's years ago, well, | 0:38:15 | 0:38:18 | |
you know, I'm glad they've caught up with it at last. But the big issues? | 0:38:18 | 0:38:21 | |
No, they haven't been caught up with. | 0:38:21 | 0:38:23 | |
Given you feel so strongly about those issues, | 0:38:23 | 0:38:26 | |
-why didn't you try to become Conservative leader? -I did. | 0:38:26 | 0:38:29 | |
-In 2001... -But you dropped out. -I had to. | 0:38:29 | 0:38:31 | |
In 2001, when William stood down, | 0:38:31 | 0:38:34 | |
I was Shadow Home Secretary, I wanted to stand. | 0:38:34 | 0:38:37 | |
And I am utterly convinced, | 0:38:38 | 0:38:41 | |
as a result of all the letters and the telephone calls that we had, | 0:38:41 | 0:38:45 | |
we weren't so much into e-mails in those days, | 0:38:45 | 0:38:47 | |
but as a result of all that correspondence and people | 0:38:47 | 0:38:50 | |
stopping me in the street, | 0:38:50 | 0:38:51 | |
I was convinced that Conservatives in the country wanted me to stand. | 0:38:51 | 0:38:55 | |
I didn't have enough support at Westminster and of course the way | 0:38:55 | 0:38:59 | |
that the leadership works is that the MPs produce the list of two, | 0:38:59 | 0:39:03 | |
those two go out to the country for decision. | 0:39:03 | 0:39:06 | |
If it had been the other way round, and the country reduced | 0:39:06 | 0:39:09 | |
the list, nothing would have stopped me standing. | 0:39:09 | 0:39:12 | |
But I found very early on, I just didn't have the support at | 0:39:12 | 0:39:14 | |
Westminster, I was never going to make the last two. So, why do it? | 0:39:14 | 0:39:18 | |
If the system had been different, and the party members had elected | 0:39:18 | 0:39:21 | |
you, do you think you could have won the MPs at Westminster round? | 0:39:21 | 0:39:25 | |
Oh, yes, I think once the party's anointed you, on the whole, | 0:39:25 | 0:39:28 | |
the attitude in Parliament then is, "Well, | 0:39:28 | 0:39:30 | |
"let's try and make this work, let's get on with this." | 0:39:30 | 0:39:33 | |
Sometimes, of course, that breaks down, | 0:39:33 | 0:39:36 | |
as it did with Iain Duncan Smith, | 0:39:36 | 0:39:37 | |
but there was nevertheless a real attempt to try, and, yes, | 0:39:37 | 0:39:43 | |
I think I could because I'd have tackled the things that needed | 0:39:43 | 0:39:46 | |
tackling, and that might have scared a lot of people. | 0:39:46 | 0:39:48 | |
Yes, it might well have done. | 0:39:48 | 0:39:49 | |
The health service scares people terribly. | 0:39:49 | 0:39:52 | |
But somebody's got to do something about it. When, oh, when? | 0:39:52 | 0:39:56 | |
You seem to be somebody who quite likes big challenges. | 0:39:57 | 0:40:00 | |
Is there part of you that would like to be sitting around the | 0:40:00 | 0:40:02 | |
-Cabinet table now with Theresa May, challenging... -Yes. -Yes? -Oh, yes. | 0:40:02 | 0:40:07 | |
Yes, I mean, I think undeniably I'd love to be doing Brexit. | 0:40:07 | 0:40:10 | |
I'd like to be doing the health service - you can't do them all, | 0:40:10 | 0:40:13 | |
of course, like to be doing the health service, | 0:40:13 | 0:40:16 | |
like to be tackling immigration, I'd like to be doing all those things. | 0:40:16 | 0:40:19 | |
Love to be doing education, | 0:40:19 | 0:40:21 | |
where my big bugbear at the moment is prescriptive marking, | 0:40:21 | 0:40:25 | |
where you just tick points that have to be made, | 0:40:25 | 0:40:27 | |
never look at the overall structure of the answer. | 0:40:27 | 0:40:30 | |
That's not education, that's a travesty of education and explains | 0:40:30 | 0:40:34 | |
why we've got grade inflation, of course. | 0:40:34 | 0:40:36 | |
So, would you focus on that rather than grammar schools? | 0:40:36 | 0:40:38 | |
Um, I'd get both going. | 0:40:38 | 0:40:41 | |
I mean, I'm happy with grammar schools but I do desperately | 0:40:41 | 0:40:44 | |
want to see the end of what I describe as prescriptive marking. | 0:40:44 | 0:40:46 | |
I actually had a letter from a Labour, | 0:40:46 | 0:40:49 | |
but it could just as easily have been a Tory, | 0:40:49 | 0:40:51 | |
Education Minister, saying to me, | 0:40:51 | 0:40:53 | |
"No, you don't need a degree in Latin | 0:40:53 | 0:40:55 | |
"to mark a Latin A Level paper." | 0:40:55 | 0:40:56 | |
Well, that's rot because there are umpteen different ways of | 0:40:56 | 0:40:59 | |
expressing something. | 0:40:59 | 0:41:00 | |
And I was only talking to a teacher the other day who said that | 0:41:00 | 0:41:04 | |
her school didn't make a practice of appealing right, | 0:41:04 | 0:41:06 | |
left and centre, | 0:41:06 | 0:41:08 | |
but every time they had appealed a low mark it had always come | 0:41:08 | 0:41:11 | |
about because the student had thought outside the box. | 0:41:11 | 0:41:15 | |
And actually it was a very good paper indeed, | 0:41:15 | 0:41:18 | |
but whoever was marking it didn't have the ability to appreciate that. | 0:41:18 | 0:41:22 | |
I have visions of a national assessment centre where | 0:41:22 | 0:41:24 | |
everybody's sitting there ticking boxes, | 0:41:24 | 0:41:26 | |
instead of assessing what's in front of them. | 0:41:26 | 0:41:29 | |
And you should always be able to assess what's in front of you. | 0:41:29 | 0:41:32 | |
And, indeed, teachers, markers used to have discretion. | 0:41:32 | 0:41:35 | |
You might get the actual answer wrong, | 0:41:35 | 0:41:37 | |
but if your method was good and it was obviously | 0:41:37 | 0:41:39 | |
a little slip somewhere at the end, you wouldn't do a cross, | 0:41:39 | 0:41:43 | |
you'd do a half or whatever it might be. | 0:41:43 | 0:41:46 | |
You'd read an essay and maybe the pupil had come out with | 0:41:46 | 0:41:50 | |
something that wasn't orthodox but that was well argued. | 0:41:50 | 0:41:53 | |
I can remember once my English teacher saying to me, | 0:41:53 | 0:41:55 | |
when I said that Fanny and Edmund, | 0:41:55 | 0:41:57 | |
from Mansfield Park, were as dull as ditchwater, | 0:41:57 | 0:42:00 | |
and they really were the most boring characters that Jane Austen | 0:42:00 | 0:42:03 | |
had ever invented, saying to me that she utterly disagreed with me, | 0:42:03 | 0:42:06 | |
she thought that any examiner would disagree with me, but that | 0:42:06 | 0:42:09 | |
the argument was very impressive and she'd given it a high mark. | 0:42:09 | 0:42:13 | |
Now, you know... | 0:42:13 | 0:42:15 | |
Not so these days. | 0:42:15 | 0:42:16 | |
So, after a lifetime of arguing, and writing books, presenting | 0:42:16 | 0:42:20 | |
television programmes, when you look back now, do you have any regrets? | 0:42:20 | 0:42:26 | |
No, I mean, if I have regrets it's about things like... | 0:42:27 | 0:42:29 | |
Well, I voted to stay in the European Community in 1975. | 0:42:29 | 0:42:34 | |
Certainly changed my mind on that one. | 0:42:34 | 0:42:36 | |
When people say to me I never change my mind, oh, yes, | 0:42:36 | 0:42:38 | |
I do, on one of the biggest issues of the century I changed my mind. | 0:42:38 | 0:42:42 | |
I regret things like that. | 0:42:42 | 0:42:43 | |
I might regret presentation rather than substance. | 0:42:43 | 0:42:47 | |
The drugs speech at party conference in 2000 would be one of those. | 0:42:47 | 0:42:51 | |
I don't remotely regret the policy, | 0:42:51 | 0:42:52 | |
I do regret the way it was presented. | 0:42:52 | 0:42:55 | |
So I have things like that. | 0:42:55 | 0:42:57 | |
Maybe tactical decisions which I took in any particular campaign, | 0:42:57 | 0:43:02 | |
but no major regrets. I've spent my life in a way that I do not regret. | 0:43:02 | 0:43:07 | |
I have embraced causes which I certainly would embrace | 0:43:07 | 0:43:11 | |
again tomorrow and do still embrace. | 0:43:11 | 0:43:13 | |
I had priorities which I believed to be right and I've tried - | 0:43:14 | 0:43:20 | |
nobody's ever 100% successful - | 0:43:20 | 0:43:21 | |
but I've tried to be utterly true to what I believe. | 0:43:21 | 0:43:26 | |
And, yeah, I shall be a fairly happy old lady. | 0:43:26 | 0:43:30 | |
And if we had the young Ann Widdecombe | 0:43:30 | 0:43:32 | |
-from the Oxford Union with us now... -I did enjoy watching that. | 0:43:32 | 0:43:36 | |
..what advice would you give her? | 0:43:36 | 0:43:39 | |
I'd say, "Don't be in such a hurry, dear." | 0:43:39 | 0:43:42 | |
There is no hurry. | 0:43:42 | 0:43:43 | |
You really don't have to think you must do everything by | 0:43:43 | 0:43:46 | |
the time you're 30. Go away, forget politics for a while. | 0:43:46 | 0:43:49 | |
Go away, have a career, earn some money, | 0:43:49 | 0:43:53 | |
have a family if that's what you want to do, but I didn't, | 0:43:53 | 0:43:56 | |
but do other things and then come back to it. | 0:43:56 | 0:44:00 | |
And that is the advice which I do always give, male or female, | 0:44:01 | 0:44:04 | |
young or old, I always say, "Make sure you've done something else." | 0:44:04 | 0:44:09 | |
And I think that's sound advice. | 0:44:09 | 0:44:10 | |
But if anybody had given it to me at the time I would have ignored | 0:44:10 | 0:44:13 | |
that person. I was absolutely uni-focused on Westminster. | 0:44:13 | 0:44:18 | |
I would have ignored that person, I would have ignored that advice. | 0:44:18 | 0:44:22 | |
But that is the advice which I would give my 20-year-old self. | 0:44:22 | 0:44:26 | |
Ann Widdecombe, thank you very much. | 0:44:26 | 0:44:28 |