Jeremy Corbyn Election 2017


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Jeremy Corbyn

Live coverage of a Labour campaign event on foreign policy at Chatham House with party leader Jeremy Corbyn.


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Welcome, everybody. It is wonderful to see you on a Friday. And Patricia

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Lewis, the research director here at Chatham House rent a national

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security. It is my great pleasure to introduce to you today Jeremy

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Corbyn. I'm sure he needs no introduction to this audience.

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Jeremy, as you know, was first elected to the House of Commons in

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1983. Previously, he was a local councillor and a trade union

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organiser. In 2015, he was elected leader of the Labour Party on what

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some might consider a radical platform of increasing wages and

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rights for workers, full commitment to a public National Health Service,

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free at the point of use, and of course, what we are here to talk

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about today, and international policy with a strong human rights

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focus. I am sure many of you have questions you want to ask on

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domestic issues, but if you do, I as chair going to say, please don't ask

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them. If you do, I would suggest you Jeremy that he doesn't need to

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answer them. Is it ideal? -- a deal? So, Jeremy will speak first. And

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then we will get into the question and answer session. Just to say that

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this is on the record. It is being live streamed, so welcome to the

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rest of the world great to have with us. For those of you who want to

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tweak and follow on Twitter Tom it is #CHCorbyn. Jeremy, we look

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forward to what you have to say. Thank you, Patricia. People Before

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Profit Thank you very much for that and

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thank you to Chatham House for inviting me here today. This is

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actually a sad day for Chatham House. The director can be here

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because he is attending the funeral of Michael Williams, who has

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recently died of a terrible cancer. He was Robin Cook's special advisor

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and later special envoy at the United Nations. Robin Cook was a

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great friend of mine and he relied heavily on Michael Williams for

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support and advice. We should commemorate that today and

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understand why the director can't be here for stuff we send our

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sympathies to the family of Michael on their loss. I would also like to

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welcome my colleagues from the Shadow Cabinet, Emily Thornberry,

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our Shadow Foreign Secretary. You have hotfooted back from Scotland

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from Question Time. Shami Chakrabarti, our shadow Attorney

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General, who is here on the front row, who brings a brilliant legal

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mind to our team, and Kei more, our shadow Secretary of State Front

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National development, who gives us an understanding and passion about

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need to deal with a conflict outsourced by ensuring that people

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are able to lead decent, good and sustainable lives. I thank my

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colleagues for all that they do and the support they give. And I want to

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thank Chatham House because it has been at the forefront of thinking on

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Britain's role in the world, including today. Apparently, this is

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being live streamed everywhere. So with the general election less than

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a month away, it is a good opportunity to set out my approach

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on how a Labour government that I lead keep Britain safe. That is the

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primary function of government. Reshape our relationships with

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partners around the world and crucially, work to strengthen the

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United Nations and respond to the global challenges we all face on the

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21st century. And I would like to say a very warm welcome to the UN

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special representative from Somalia who is here today. Where are you

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sitting? Thank you very much. Kate adviser, wonderful to see both.

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Anybody else haven't referenced who I know, consider yourselves

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welcomed! On Monday, we commemorated Victory in Europe Day, Jennifer is

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real of the victory over Nazi Germany in Europe -- the anniversary

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of the victory over Nazi Germany. The EJ marked the victory over

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fascism and the end of a global war that had claimed 70 million lives.

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Think of that figure. 70 million lives were lost in the Second World

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War. General Eisenhower, supreme Commander of the Allied forces in

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1944, who was based right here in this square, preparing the plan for

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the invasion of operation overlord, later went on to become Republican

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President of the United States during some of the most dangerous

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years of the Cold War in the 1950s. Is He gave a stark warning of what

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he described as the acquisition of unwarranted influence by the

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military industrial complex. He went on to say - only an alert and

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knowledgeable citizenry can excel the proper meshing the huge

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industrial and military machine of defence with our peaceful methods

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and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together. Sadly,

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it's more than 70 years since he made that speech. Sadly, in more

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than half a century, I think it's clear that easen hour's warning has

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not been heeded. Too much of our defeat about defence and security is

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one dimensional. You are either for or against, what is presented as

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strong defence, regardless of the actual record of what it has meant

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in practice. Alert citizens, or political leaders, who advocate

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other routes to security are often dismissed or treated as unreliable.

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My own political views were shaped by my parents' description of the

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horrors of war and the threat of nuclear holocaust. Indeed, my

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parents met whilst organising solidarity with the elected

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government of Spain against Franco-'s fascists during the

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Spanish Civil War, which of course were supported by Hitler and the

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Nazis. My generation grew up under the shadow of the Cold War. Our

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black and white televisions throughout the 50s and 60s and into

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the 70s was dominated by Vietnam. As a young person I was haunted by

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images of sievians fleeing chemical weapons, used by the United States.

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I didn't imagine that nearly 50 years later we would still see

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chemical weapons being used by innocent civilians, what an abject

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failure. Indeed I met recently a Vietnam War veteran who had been

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involved in using at orange and is still traumatised by that

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experience. How is it that history keeps repeating itself? At the end

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of the kold war, when the Berlin Wall came down, we were told it was

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the end of history. Global leaders promise administer peaceful, stable

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world. It didn't quite work out like that. Today, the world is more

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unstable than even at the height of the Cold War. The approach to

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international security we've been using since the 1990s simply has not

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worked. Regime change wars, in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria, and

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interventions in areas haven't always succeeded in their own terms.

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Sometimes they have made the world a more dangerous place. This is the

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fourth general election in a row to be held while Britain is at war and

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our Armed Forces and our reaction in the Middle East and beyond. The fact

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is that the war on terror has been driven, which has driven these

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interventions, has not succeeded. It has not increased our security at

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home. In fact, many would say, just the opposite. It's caused

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destablisation and devastation abroad, and last September, the

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House of Commons' Foreign Affairs Select Committee published a report

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on the Libyan war which David Cameron, as Prime Minister, promoted

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our intervention in. They concluded the intervention led to political

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and economic collapse. Humanitarian and migrant crisis and fuelled the

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rise of Isis in Africa and across the Middle East. Is that really the

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way to build a security for our people? The people in Britain, who

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seriously believes that's what real strength looks like. We need to step

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back and have, I think, some fresh thinking. The world faces huge

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problems. As well as the legacy of regime change wars, there is a

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dangerous cocktail of ethnic conflicts, food and security, water

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scarcity and fast-emerging effects of climate change. And to that mix

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add a grotesque and growing level of inequality in which just eight

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billionaires, eight billionaires own the same wealth as 3.6 billion of

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the poorest people on our planet. And you end up with a refugee crisis

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of epic proportions, affecting every continent in the world with more

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displaced people in the world than since the Second World War. Indeed,

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there are some estimates that think there are more displaced people than

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at any time in recorded history. These problems are getting worse and

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they are fuelling threats and instability. The global situation is

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becoming more dangerous. And the new, United States' president seems

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sadly determined to add to the dangers by recklessly escalating the

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confrontation with North Korea, unilaterally launching strikes on

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Syria and opposing what was a great achievement as President Obama's

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nuclear arms' deal with Iran and the suggestion, he was backing a new

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nuclear arms race. A Labour Government will want a strong and

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friendly relationship with the United States. But, we will not be

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afraid to speak our mind. The United States is the strongest military

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power on the planet by a very long way. It has a special responsibility

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to use its power with care, and support international efforts to

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resolve conflicts, collectively and peacefully. Waiting to see which way

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the wind blows in Washington isn't strong leadership and pandering to

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an erratic administration will not deliver stablted. So, when Theresa

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May addressed the Republican Party conference in Philadelphia in Jan,

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she spoke in aalmostist terms about the rise of China and India, and the

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danger of the West being eclipsed. She said - America and Britain had

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to stand together and use their military might to protect their

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interests. That's the sort of language that led us into the

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calamities in Iraq and Libya and other disastrous wars, that stole

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the post-Cold War promise of a new and peaceful world order. I do not

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see India and China in those terms. Nor do I think do the vast majority

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of Americans or British people, want the boots of young men and women on

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the ground in Syria, fighting a war that can escalate the suffering

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further. Britain seems better than shrimp outsourcing our country'ses

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were spority and security to the whims of the Trump White House. So

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no more hand holding of Donald Trump. A Labour Government will

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conduct a robust and independent foreign policy, made in Britain. A

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Labour Government would seek to work for peace and security, with all the

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other permanent members of the United Nations' Security Council,

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the United States, China, Russia and France. And with other countries, to

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play a major role, such as India, South Africa, Brazil and Germany, we

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have to reach out and work with others. The philosophy bomb first,

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talk later approach to security has failed. To assist with it, as the

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Conservative Government has made clear it is determined to do, is a

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recipe for increasing, not reducing threats and security.

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I'm often asked, if Prime Minister, if I would order the use of nuclear

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weapons. It is an extraordinary question when you think about it.

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Would you order the indiscriminate killing of millions of people? Would

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you risk such contamination of the planet that no life to exist across

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large parts of the world? If circumstances arose where there was

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a reoption, it would represent a complete and cataclysmic failure. It

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would mean world leaders had already triggered a spiral of catastrophe

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for human kind. Labour is committed to actively pursue, disarmament

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under the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. And we're committed to no

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first use of nuclear weapons, but let me make this absolutely clear.

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If elected Prime Minister, I would do everything to programme tect the

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security and safety of our people and our country, that is our first

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duty. And to achieve it, I know, I would have to work with other

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countries to solve problems, diffuse tensions and build collective

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security. The best defence is for Britain, actively engaged in the

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world's solutions. It doesn't make me a pacifist. I accept that

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military action under international law, is a last resort in some

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genuine circumstances, if necessary. But it is a far cry from the war and

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interventions that have become almost routine, I will not take less

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tours on security and human Tait from a Conservative Party who stood

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by in the 1980s, who refused to introdeuce sanctions when children

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were on being shot down in Soweto. Once again, in this election it's

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been clear that a vote for the Conservatives would be a vote to

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escalate the war in Syria, risking military confrontation with Russia,

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adding to the suffering of the Syrian people and increasing global

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insecurity. When you see children suffering in war, it's only natural

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top want to do something. But the last thing we need is more of the

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same failed recipe that served us so badly and the people so

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calamitously. Labour willp stand up for the people of Syria. We'll press

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for war crimes to be properly investigated and work tirelessly to

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make the Geneva talks work. Every action that is taken over Syria,

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must be judged. But whether it brings a help to the tragedy, the

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appalling tragedy of the Syrian war, or does the opposite. Even if Isis

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is defeated militarily, the conflict will not end until there is a

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negotiated settlement involving all the main parties, including the

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regional and international powers, and an inclusive government in Iraq.

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All wars and conflicts eventually are brought to an end by political

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means. So, Labour boo adopt a new approach -- would adopt. We will not

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step back from our responsibilities but our focus will be on

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strengthening international cooperation and supporting the

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efforts of the United Nations to resolve conflicts. A Labour

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Government will respect international law, and oppose

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lawlessness and unilateralism in international relations. We believe

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passionately human rights and justice should drive our foreign

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policy. In the 1960s, Harold Wilson's Labour Government worked

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for and signed the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. As Prime

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Minister, I hope to build on that achievement. Labour's support for

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the renewal of the Trident system doesn't preclude from working for

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meaningful multi-natural steps to reduce reductions in nuclear

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arsenals, a Labour Government will pursue a commitment to the

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inter-Longing instruments of defence, diplomacy. For all their

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bluster, the Tory record on defence ina security has been Frankly one of

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incompetence and failure. They've balanced the books on the backs of

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servicemen and women. Deep cuts in the arm. Stagnant pay, worsening

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conditions, poor housing, the morale of our service personnel and

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veterans, is at rock bottom. And as the security threats and challenges

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we face are not bound by geographical borders, it's vital

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that as Britain leaves the European Union, we maintain a close

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relationship with our European partners, alongside Nato, to keep

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spending at 2% but that means working with our Allies to ensure

:19:43.:19:47.

peace and security in Europe. We will work to halt the drift towards

:19:48.:19:49.

confrontation with Russia. And escalation with Russia. We need

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to understand the necessity of winding down tensions on the

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Russian-NATO border and supporting dialogue to reduce the risk of

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international conflict. We'll back a new conference on security and

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cooperation in Europe and seek to diffuse the crisis in the Ukraine,

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through implementation of the mi. -- Minsks agreement. We'll work with

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the European Union to promote global and regional security. This means

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our Armed Forces will have the necessary capabilities to fulfil the

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full range of obligations, ensuring their versatile and able to

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participate. Rapid stablisation, disaster relief, UN peacekeeping and

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conflict resolution activities. Because security is not only about

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direct military defence, it's about conflict resolution, and

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preventions. Under pinned by strong, diplomacy.

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The next Labour government will invest in our diplomatic network and

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consular services. We will seek to rebuild some of the key capabilities

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and services that have been lost as a result of Conservative cuts in

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recent years, such as the loss of human rights advisers in so many of

:21:17.:21:21.

our embassies around the world. Finally, while Theresa May seeks to

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build a coalition of risk and insecurity with Donald Trump, a

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Labour government will refocus Britain's influence towards

:21:29.:21:30.

cooperation and peaceful settlements and social justice. The life

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chances, security and prosperity of our citizens are dependent on a

:21:39.:21:42.

stable international environment. We will strengthen our commitment to

:21:43.:21:46.

the United Nations, we are aware of its shortcomings, particularly in

:21:47.:21:51.

the light of repeated abuses of the veto power in the United Nations

:21:52.:21:53.

Security Council. We will work with our allies to build support for

:21:54.:21:58.

United Nations reform in order to make its institutions more effective

:21:59.:22:03.

and more responsive. As a permanent member of the Security Council, we

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will provide respect for the authority of international law. To

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leave this work, Labour has created a minister for peace who will work

:22:15.:22:17.

across the Ministry of Defence and the Foreign Commonwealth Office.

:22:18.:22:20.

We will reclaim Britain's leading role in tackling climate change,

:22:21.:22:25.

working hard to preserve the Paris agreement and deliver on

:22:26.:22:29.

international commitments to reduce carbon emissions. We will re-examine

:22:30.:22:33.

the arms export licensing regulations to ensure that all

:22:34.:22:37.

British arms exports are consistent with our legal and moral

:22:38.:22:41.

obligations. This means refusing to grant export licences for arms where

:22:42.:22:45.

there is a clear risk that they will be used to commit suicide violations

:22:46.:22:51.

of international humanitarian law. Weapons supplies to Saudi Arabia,

:22:52.:22:55.

when the evidence of grave breaches of humanitarian law in Yemen is

:22:56.:22:58.

overwhelming, must be halted immediately, as Emily has made clear

:22:59.:23:03.

many times in Parliament. I see it as the next Labour government's task

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to make the case for Britain to advance a security and foreign

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policy with integrity and human rights at its core. It is a clear

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choice at this election between continuing with the failed policy of

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continual and devastating interventions that have intensified

:23:22.:23:24.

conflicts and increased the terrorist threat, or being willing

:23:25.:23:29.

to step back, learn the lessons of the past and find new ways to solve

:23:30.:23:34.

and prevent conflicts. Dwight Eisenhower said on another occasion,

:23:35.:23:38.

if people can develop weapons that are so terrifying as to make the

:23:39.:23:42.

thought of global war almost a sentence was suicide, you would

:23:43.:23:47.

think that man's intelligence would include also his ability to find a

:23:48.:23:52.

peaceful solution. And in the words of another American, Martin Luther

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King, the chain reaction of evil, hate begetting hate, was produced

:24:00.:24:05.

more wars, must be broken, or we shall be plunged into the dark days

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of annihilation. I believe we can find those solutions. We can walk

:24:12.:24:17.

the hard yards to a better way to live together on this planet. A

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Labour government would give leadership and a new and

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constructive way, and that is the leadership we are ready to provide

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both at home and abroad. Thank you very much.

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Thank you, Jeremy. Before going to the floor and firstly to our

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membership, I would like to ask a couple of questions. Firstly, when

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you are in the UN is a permanent member of the Security Council, to

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make things work, you need to have an agreement with all five permanent

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members of the Security Council, and they are protecting others. So you

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need to do deals across the board, often with countries with poor human

:25:16.:25:18.

rights records, in order to achieve what you want to achieve. How does

:25:19.:25:24.

that square with a foreign policy that is based on human rights, that

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is based on an ethical approach? How do you manage to square the method

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and the end result is? You have to measure your policy against the

:25:35.:25:40.

human rights records that we want, and the obligations that all five of

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the permanent members of the Security Council have signed up to

:25:43.:25:46.

through the universal declaration and through the International

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Criminal Court, which is not universal, but we wish it were. And

:25:50.:25:56.

the other conventions such as rights of the child, the rights of women

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and the rights of environmental survival. You have to engage with

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those countries on it. There is evidence that where you do engage,

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things begin to change. The engagement with China on

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environmental issues has changed Chinese attitudes a lot, and I

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suspect the level of pollution in Chinese cities has changed attitudes

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a lot. It is a question of being prepared to engage. It is not always

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lecturing people, it is learning from them as well. But it is also

:26:28.:26:33.

recognising that we can't go on as a planet, just presiding over this

:26:34.:26:38.

task level of inequality and accepting that there are tens of

:26:39.:26:45.

millions of displaced people and refugees, trying to survive often in

:26:46.:26:49.

the poorest countries in the world. The numbers who come to Europe by

:26:50.:26:52.

comparison with the rest of the world are quite small. But the

:26:53.:26:57.

disaster often affects the poorest in the poorest countries in the

:26:58.:27:01.

world. Think what it is like to be festering in a refugee camp in

:27:02.:27:05.

Libya, just trying to survive. So the five permanent members of the

:27:06.:27:09.

Security Council do have a special responsibility in this, and you do

:27:10.:27:13.

have to engage with them. I would want to engage with Russia on human

:27:14.:27:16.

rights issues just as much as I would with China or any other

:27:17.:27:23.

country. As you know, people have come to welcome your letters from

:27:24.:27:29.

citizens at premises questions. We thought we would take a leaf out of

:27:30.:27:35.

your book. OK. Which citizen has written to us? It is a letter from

:27:36.:27:41.

Cheltenham. She is addressing something you have not talked about.

:27:42.:27:45.

Dear Patricia, please ask Mr Corbyn what he would do to increase cyber

:27:46.:27:50.

security in the UK, at the same time making sure that we keep our privacy

:27:51.:27:57.

online defended from attackers. Cyber security is a good question.

:27:58.:28:01.

It is probably the greatest threat that is faced all around the world

:28:02.:28:06.

at the present time. Cyber attacks can disable transport systems,

:28:07.:28:11.

disable communications, disable media, interfere apparently in

:28:12.:28:15.

elections in some countries. I am making no suggestions about anything

:28:16.:28:18.

in this country. It's OK, put your pens down! But it is a good question

:28:19.:28:25.

and a very serious one. You have to ensure that we have got the

:28:26.:28:30.

capability to deal with cyber attacks against our crucial

:28:31.:28:36.

infrastructure, which is of course telephone, mobile phones and all the

:28:37.:28:40.

rest. There is also the question of surveillance. We have challenged the

:28:41.:28:44.

Government on this over the question of the right of universal intrusion

:28:45.:28:47.

into people's e-mails, which I think is totally wrong. As a member of the

:28:48.:28:52.

Justice select committee, we had these discussions with the European

:28:53.:28:59.

Union during many delegations and we put forward a proper amendments to

:29:00.:29:02.

recent legislation in the House so that we protect the privacy of the

:29:03.:29:06.

individual, but recognise that cyber attacks are real and extremely

:29:07.:29:13.

dangerous. We live in a very high-tech, complicated world, where

:29:14.:29:17.

if you interfere with security systems surrounding power supplies

:29:18.:29:22.

or anything else, you endanger life very quickly. You can kill people

:29:23.:29:26.

without firing any kind of gun. This is the challenge of our time, and it

:29:27.:29:34.

is time we faced up to it. Thank you to Pauletta of Cheltenham.

:29:35.:29:46.

I am now going to our membership, and I am looking to people at the

:29:47.:29:56.

back primarily, who are young and of any gender they wish to be. So you

:29:57.:30:08.

are looking at only young members? Not quite. I just want to start of

:30:09.:30:12.

the questioning with a voice from the future? Is there anyone? Let me

:30:13.:30:24.

call on you is the first speaker. Thank you very much. I run the US

:30:25.:30:29.

and America programme here at Chatham House. You have laid out a

:30:30.:30:32.

platform that is almost the antithesis of the platform being

:30:33.:30:36.

laid out by Donald Trump. You have expressed that there will be no

:30:37.:30:43.

intention of handholding with the American president. But you also

:30:44.:30:46.

have to recognise that there are huge links between the US and the

:30:47.:30:51.

UK, economic links, intelligence links. How are you going to pass

:30:52.:30:57.

those two things, on the one hand very publicly saying you disagree

:30:58.:31:02.

with the positions taken by their administration, but on the other

:31:03.:31:05.

hand trying to ensure that there is the economic engagement, the

:31:06.:31:12.

investment and intelligent engagement? Let me take two more

:31:13.:31:17.

questions. If I can go to this gentleman? Went to the microphone

:31:18.:31:28.

and say who you are. Hello, my name is Max Nicholson and I am a

:31:29.:31:30.

postgraduate student at King's College. What future with the

:31:31.:31:36.

intelligence community in the UK have under a Labour government, and

:31:37.:31:39.

would you seek to make changes to the investigatory Powers act? And

:31:40.:31:52.

the gentleman here? Sean, member of Chatham House. On the handholding

:31:53.:31:55.

point, you said no more handholding with Donald Trump. But I don't see

:31:56.:32:00.

that there is anything wrong with two men in this day and age holding

:32:01.:32:05.

hands in public. And listening to your speech, I think that actually,

:32:06.:32:09.

there are many points that you and Trump have in common. You both

:32:10.:32:12.

described the invasion of Iraq in 2003 as a catastrophe. And your

:32:13.:32:17.

commitment to the renewal of Trident anti-spending at least 2% of GDP on

:32:18.:32:23.

defence will presumably get Trump to want to hold your hand. My question

:32:24.:32:27.

is the one area in which you seem to focus on in your speech was North

:32:28.:32:31.

Korea. You seemed to be very critical of Trump's approach. So I

:32:32.:32:33.

would like you to flesh out your approach to the North Korean

:32:34.:32:42.

problem. Thanks for those questions. On the first question, sorry? I

:32:43.:32:58.

can't read my own writing! The approach to US trade. Clearly, we

:32:59.:33:03.

have a close relationship with the United States. We have a cultural

:33:04.:33:08.

and trade relationship and we have ever since the First World War a

:33:09.:33:13.

military relationship with the United States. Does that mean we

:33:14.:33:15.

always agree with every US president? Not at all. The British

:33:16.:33:23.

government at the time, was politically supportive of the

:33:24.:33:26.

Americans in Vietnam, didn't commit British troops to it. Therefore, one

:33:27.:33:30.

would suggest that there was some degree of criticism implicit in

:33:31.:33:33.

that. Does it mean you can't have a relationship with them? No. It is

:33:34.:33:37.

the opposite. You have a relationship and it is critical, but

:33:38.:33:41.

it is not just with the US president. There are day-to-day

:33:42.:33:45.

relationships with members of the House and the Senate as well as the

:33:46.:33:50.

different communities across the USA. I have been in the USA many

:33:51.:33:56.

times, met huge numbers of people of diverse political opinions. You work

:33:57.:34:00.

with them all. But the relationship with the USA is an important one and

:34:01.:34:06.

something we would want to maintain. On the question about the

:34:07.:34:13.

Investigatory Powers Act and intelligence community, yes we would

:34:14.:34:20.

maintain GCHQ. And we would ensure that the powers of investigation

:34:21.:34:24.

into the citizen are backed up by a legal process. We would not give

:34:25.:34:29.

unaccountable power of investigation into somebody's life. If the

:34:30.:34:35.

authorities want to investigate streams of e-mails or whatever else,

:34:36.:34:37.

they would have to get legal backing to do it. We don't want to create a

:34:38.:34:43.

surveillance society where there is untrammelled power of interference

:34:44.:34:47.

in the lives of the individual or of their privacy. Thanks for your point

:34:48.:34:58.

about handholding. Obviously, a Labour government would meet with

:34:59.:35:00.

President Trump and would have discussions with him. You raised the

:35:01.:35:09.

point about North Korea. I am clear that the nuclear Non-Proliferation

:35:10.:35:12.

Treaty is important and must be made to work, but there are a number of

:35:13.:35:16.

nuclear armed countries that don't have membership of that treaty,

:35:17.:35:22.

North Korea being one of them. The six party talks were making a great

:35:23.:35:29.

deal of progress. The only way forward in the crisis in relations

:35:30.:35:32.

between the United States and Korea has to be a resumption of the six

:35:33.:35:36.

party talks, encouraging and thanking China for what it has done

:35:37.:35:40.

so far in trying to defuse tensions and also working with the South

:35:41.:35:46.

Korean government at the same time. The idea that one would countenance

:35:47.:35:51.

the bombing of the people of North Korea or of North Korea sending

:35:52.:35:54.

missiles that would kill others is appalling honours are there has to

:35:55.:35:59.

be a relationship. The Obama administration seemed to be moving

:36:00.:36:03.

in the direction of building closer relations and trying to develop some

:36:04.:36:07.

sort of dialogue with North Korea. I think that is a good idea and we

:36:08.:36:10.

should encourage that. We assume diplomatic relations with

:36:11.:36:24.

a country that has effective government. We do have relations. I

:36:25.:36:29.

think it is important we develop that principle. A couple of

:36:30.:36:31.

questions here. John Pienaar BBC News. What do you

:36:32.:36:54.

say to viewers about nuclear retaliation, that you would never

:36:55.:36:58.

use it first and what due say to supporters of British military

:36:59.:37:02.

power, where it is not clear in what circumstances, you would ever order

:37:03.:37:05.

forces into the boo he will why, in or out of Nato and including strikes

:37:06.:37:17.

against Islamic stake. Morning. You say military action in some

:37:18.:37:19.

circumstances are necessary, you opposed the in Kosovo and Sierra

:37:20.:37:24.

Leone, in retrospect where those interventions the rye thing to do.

:37:25.:37:28.

And in four weeks' time you could be not just Prime Minister but de facto

:37:29.:37:32.

commander in chief, when you think about the enormity of the office, is

:37:33.:37:37.

that the part of the job that scares you most? And last question, over

:37:38.:37:50.

here? # You mentioned the problem of the veto how else would you seek

:37:51.:37:59.

just fiction for action, and what are you trying to protect... The

:38:00.:38:05.

question about our security is par rap mount. I have made that very

:38:06.:38:11.

clear, Emily made it clear in her statements and as have others. The

:38:12.:38:15.

pornces is to protect all of our people to make sure they are not

:38:16.:38:19.

under any kind of threat. Does that mean there are a ultimately some

:38:20.:38:22.

circumstances where you use military force, yes, there are. And, you

:38:23.:38:29.

think back to our history, many in this room, well, nobody in this room

:38:30.:38:34.

was around at the time of the First World War. I'm sure many would have

:38:35.:38:40.

questioned its legitimacy in its whole approach. Doubt if many

:38:41.:38:44.

would've questioned it ultimately in the Second World War because of the

:38:45.:38:48.

catastrophicy that approached in the rise of the Nazis, all across

:38:49.:38:54.

Europe. I think there has to be, ultimately, that preparedness to use

:38:55.:38:58.

military force. Now the question that was raised also, in continuing

:38:59.:39:04.

your theme, concerning, for example, Kosovo and Sierra Leone, the

:39:05.:39:09.

situation in Kosovo is not good. Could it have been dealt with in a

:39:10.:39:14.

different way, and could there have been a different approach? Yes, I

:39:15.:39:20.

believe there could. On Sierra Leone, there was actually quite wide

:39:21.:39:23.

agreement on the principles behind it, but there has to be a follow-up

:39:24.:39:29.

as well. And the follow-up has to be the kind of support and

:39:30.:39:32.

nation-building you give at the end and there have been places, I have

:39:33.:39:39.

been to, where there has been UN-backed military action in order

:39:40.:39:44.

to bring about or ensure a ceasefire and continue development of that

:39:45.:39:48.

country. For example, I was a UN observer at the East Timor

:39:49.:39:54.

referendum which had come at the end of an appalling civil war which had

:39:55.:40:00.

gone on for decades with tens of thousands of people who lost their

:40:01.:40:04.

lives and that military UN interinvestigation, to enforce the

:40:05.:40:07.

ceasefire, by in large, worked. I think you have to be aware that

:40:08.:40:11.

there are cases where you can do that but it has to be done on the

:40:12.:40:18.

basis of law and it has to be done through the United Nations. On the

:40:19.:40:22.

question of vetoes and responsibility to protect, I'm

:40:23.:40:26.

interested in the responsibility to protect, issue an argument. Again, I

:40:27.:40:30.

think it has to be backed up by international law and backed up via

:40:31.:40:36.

the United Nations. I have also been in Rwanda and Boyer

:40:37.:40:47.

the United Nations. I have also been in Rwanda and the war there has

:40:48.:40:50.

probably claimed more lives than any other conflict that has happened

:40:51.:40:54.

since the Second World War. It has not had the attention of the world's

:40:55.:40:59.

media or concentration of the world's media and the killing has

:41:00.:41:03.

gone on, rain has become an instrument of war in the DRC and

:41:04.:41:10.

indeed I have been in Goma meeting hundreds of women who were

:41:11.:41:16.

collective victims of rain and it was the most traumatic and educative

:41:17.:41:19.

moment of my life talking to them. Could more have been done? Yes.

:41:20.:41:24.

Could we have done more to promote a ceasefire? ? Yes. Could we've done

:41:25.:41:30.

more to challenge blood diamonds? And other things brought out of the

:41:31.:41:38.

DRC? Yes. Many questions, I ask, why didn't we. Some of that is the

:41:39.:41:43.

wealth coming out of there. Could doing have been done to intervene at

:41:44.:41:46.

the time of the genocide in Rwanda? Yes, I believe it could, I have met

:41:47.:41:51.

people in Rwanda and Burundi, who feel bitter to this day that more

:41:52.:41:55.

was not done. Again, there seems to be an assumption that a war this

:41:56.:41:59.

Africa is somehow rather different than something on the edges of

:42:00.:42:03.

Europe. I think we have to engage. We also have to engage positively

:42:04.:42:06.

afterwards, because, if you think of nations that have come out of

:42:07.:42:14.

conflict, take Columbia, take El Salvador, Columbia, decades and

:42:15.:42:19.

decades of civil war, eventually, by good action by neighbouring

:42:20.:42:23.

countries, a ceasefire was produced and a peace process has developed

:42:24.:42:28.

but if you don't stay the course afterwards, as happened in El

:42:29.:42:34.

Salvador, those that were formerly protagonists in the civil war, then

:42:35.:42:38.

end up in criminal gangs and you have a similar degree of killing

:42:39.:42:41.

ininstability, this time for crime, rather than the purposes of

:42:42.:42:44.

engagement in that civil war. So, it is about engagement but it is also

:42:45.:42:48.

about use of the UN and international law. My question mark

:42:49.:42:52.

is over unilateral action. Sory, I know it was a long list of

:42:53.:42:58.

questions but would you mind answering the seconder part of mine

:42:59.:43:04.

that whether being de facto Commander-in-Chief, being the Prime

:43:05.:43:09.

Minister, would it scare you? Just for those hop couldn't hear? The

:43:10.:43:13.

question was, whether I nund part of the job the most frightening. Not at

:43:14.:43:18.

all. I want to see a peaceful world. I have spent my life wanting to see

:43:19.:43:27.

a peaceful world. I I have spent my life working for the human rights of

:43:28.:43:33.

all. And ensuring that everybody has some chance in life. So if you don't

:43:34.:43:38.

mind one slight anecdote, I met a group of refugees, in a refugee camp

:43:39.:43:42.

in Syria, before the present conflict broke out and these were

:43:43.:43:45.

people living in tents on the border of Iraq and Syria, in appalling,

:43:46.:43:48.

appalling conditions, they deserve better. I was talking to a

:43:49.:43:51.

14-year-old girl and her family, one of whom who died because the tents

:43:52.:43:56.

had burnt down. I said - what do you want to achieve in your life? And

:43:57.:44:03.

this child, in a tent, in the middle of misery and everything else, she

:44:04.:44:08.

said - thank you for your question, I want to be a doctor.

:44:09.:44:09.

Wow. She had ambitions. You see those all

:44:10.:44:17.

over the world and so, the opportunity of leading a Government

:44:18.:44:21.

that will help to promote international law, will address

:44:22.:44:25.

issues of global imbalance and insecurity and will be realistic

:44:26.:44:31.

about terrorist threats, realistic about threats of cyber insecurity,

:44:32.:44:36.

is something that I actually relish. Because, because our task, surely

:44:37.:44:41.

has to be to leave the world better and more peaceful for the next

:44:42.:44:48.

generation, rather than more dangerous and at war than the next

:44:49.:44:51.

generation. You have to deal with the problems all over, you have to

:44:52.:44:54.

deal with them in an international multilateral way.

:44:55.:44:59.

You are very popular Jeremy, everyone wants it ask you a

:45:00.:45:04.

question. John, is this a presentation? John sees me almost

:45:05.:45:11.

every day. John Pienaar sees me almost every dau, you are causing

:45:12.:45:15.

upsets with Sky. You are starting trouble with your mates.

:45:16.:45:18.

! Briefly for the sake of clarification, if I may. No, no.

:45:19.:45:23.

John, can we move on, please? Let's move on. It is unfair in the rest of

:45:24.:45:30.

the audience. A lady in the third row back, in the red jacket. Wear

:45:31.:45:36.

red if you want to be noticed. A trait that works. I'm head of policy

:45:37.:45:43.

from Global Justice Now, two questions, one on climate.

:45:44.:45:47.

Considering that the policy of President Trump seems to be bent on

:45:48.:45:53.

making it more difficult for the even minimum agreements in the Paris

:45:54.:45:59.

accord impossible, what will be your position on that? Second is on the

:46:00.:46:08.

South China Sea. Considering the golden age relationship with China

:46:09.:46:12.

and historical relationship with the UK. US what will be the policy on

:46:13.:46:20.

South China Sea? I knew you would ask good questions. At the back. I'm

:46:21.:46:26.

a resevener with the North African programme at Chatham House. You

:46:27.:46:28.

mentioned the need to have human rights at the heart of UK foreign

:46:29.:46:32.

poll sane you also mentioned the need to work towards and support a

:46:33.:46:38.

peaceful agreement in Syria. But we know that the Al-Sadr regime in --

:46:39.:46:49.

Assad regime has persecuted the people and conducted human rights'

:46:50.:46:52.

positions on a huge scale, can I ask you to clarify your position on

:46:53.:46:59.

that. And the last question here. Mr Corbyn, Sky News. If you become

:47:00.:47:08.

Prime Minister next month, will you immediately withdraw the RAF from

:47:09.:47:12.

sorties in Syria and Iraq? And if it is better to talk rather than bomb,

:47:13.:47:21.

what would you say to Isis? OK. First of all on the points asked

:47:22.:47:29.

about climate change, I more than regret the language President Trump

:47:30.:47:34.

used during his election campaign about the global threats of climate

:47:35.:47:41.

change and environmental degredation around the world. And I did indeed

:47:42.:47:45.

attend the Paris conference on climate change for a short time

:47:46.:47:52.

myself. And we have to be totally realistic that unless we are to take

:47:53.:47:58.

even more serious action than we do now, on emissions, on pollution, and

:47:59.:48:07.

on environmental degredation, lots of life on the planet is under

:48:08.:48:12.

threat. We have conflicts and wars based on environmental disasters, we

:48:13.:48:16.

have to be prepared to do far more to sustain our natural world and

:48:17.:48:20.

environment. The refugees from Darfur have got involved in a

:48:21.:48:24.

conflict when in fact they are basically environmental refugees and

:48:25.:48:28.

there are many, many other examples around the world, so we would adhere

:48:29.:48:33.

absolutely to it and indeed the last Labour Government was very strong in

:48:34.:48:37.

supporting all the international conventions, both on pollution, as

:48:38.:48:43.

well as on Co2 emissions and the affects of global warming. So I

:48:44.:48:47.

would be very strong on those issues and indeed have been involved in

:48:48.:48:50.

many campaigns on those for a very long time. We can't go on polluting

:48:51.:48:56.

our seas, in the end we pollute ourselves if we carry on doing that.

:48:57.:49:00.

The issue about the South China Sea, yes, there are obviously problems

:49:01.:49:04.

with China's behaviour. There has to be pressure put on them. There has

:49:05.:49:08.

to be an agreement reached. You cannot just say - because it is

:49:09.:49:12.

China you can't say anything to them. You have to do something about

:49:13.:49:16.

it. China wants to be part of the world community, we all want

:49:17.:49:18.

everybody to be part of the world community, therefore that means

:49:19.:49:24.

putting UN pressure on them over their activities in the South China

:49:25.:49:28.

Sea. On the question that was raised at

:49:29.:49:33.

the back about human rights, as is central foreign policy, of course it

:49:34.:49:38.

is, and I absolutely agree with you, the Assad regime has committed the

:49:39.:49:42.

most appalling human rights' abuse using, as have other forces in the

:49:43.:49:46.

region. There has to be a political process. That political process must

:49:47.:49:51.

also involved Iran. Geneva 1 didn't work because Iran wasn't involved.

:49:52.:49:56.

Geneva 2, or if now to be Geneva 3, must involve all the actors in the

:49:57.:50:01.

region, including Iran. I find it more than regrettable that President

:50:02.:50:04.

Trump now seems it be trying to tear up the agreement that President

:50:05.:50:09.

Obama's Government and others had so painstakingly negotiated with Iran,

:50:10.:50:13.

which also had with it, the possibilities of improving human

:50:14.:50:17.

rights in Iran by a human rights' negotiation process and this is' got

:50:18.:50:22.

to be - always got to be important. On what we will do over RAF presence

:50:23.:50:29.

and sorties, we'll examine what they are doing straightaway, examine what

:50:30.:50:31.

their presence is, straightaway but above all, that fits into the whole

:50:32.:50:35.

point I am asaying - I would do everything I possibly could, in

:50:36.:50:41.

order to reignite the peace process, to ensure that there is a Geneva 3,

:50:42.:50:49.

dealing with the conflict in Syria, and clearly isolating Isis is very

:50:50.:50:53.

important. Their arms and their money don't come from nowhere. They

:50:54.:50:57.

are being supported by a lot of people who are pouring money and

:50:58.:51:02.

arms into them and so, those people that have been - whose lives are

:51:03.:51:06.

being destroyed by Isis and its behaviour, need to also be

:51:07.:51:10.

recognised that the people that in effect are killing them, are those

:51:11.:51:14.

that are giving money, arms and allowing them to send oil which

:51:15.:51:19.

funds the whole Isis, there has to be a comprehensive political and

:51:20.:51:23.

economic approach to the. Would you look at introducing a financial

:51:24.:51:27.

tracking approach? #123450 Much stronger financial tracking approach

:51:28.:51:29.

is very, very important, if you don't do that you don't know where

:51:30.:51:33.

the money is coming from and where it is going to and the amounts of

:51:34.:51:38.

money floating around the world that have come from international drug

:51:39.:51:41.

dealers and others, not so much in Syria but in other parts of the

:51:42.:51:45.

world, again, there has to be financial tracking and our approach

:51:46.:51:50.

to that would be, we'd have very rigorous financial tracking

:51:51.:51:51.

mechanism. Would you talk to Isis? No. I have

:51:52.:52:00.

made that clear. I would want to bring about a political solution to

:52:01.:52:04.

the Geneva process. There is a woman in a green shirt? Deborah Haynes

:52:05.:52:12.

from the Times. You talk about how you would support the Trident

:52:13.:52:17.

system. Does that mean that you as Prime Minister would back a

:52:18.:52:19.

like-for-like replacement of the four submarines? And also, which

:52:20.:52:31.

conflict where British troops have been deployed since the end of the

:52:32.:52:33.

Second World War have you actually supported? I will go on now to the

:52:34.:52:44.

woman at the back. I'm Margaret Owen of peace in Kurdistan. Jeremy,

:52:45.:52:48.

you're a great friend of the Kurds and I are grateful to you. What will

:52:49.:52:53.

be the Labour government's policy towards Turkey? Willet condemned the

:52:54.:52:57.

genocide that is going on against the Kurds in Syria and Turkey? Will

:52:58.:53:03.

it do anything for the peace process to ensure the Kurds are represented,

:53:04.:53:14.

and will you review the arms sales two countries which violate human

:53:15.:53:19.

rights? Were you condemn Turkey for this? Thank you. And the gentleman

:53:20.:53:29.

on the left, please. I am the High Commissioner of Cyprus. If you words

:53:30.:53:33.

on Brexit, please, in relation to defence and foreign policy. Thank

:53:34.:53:44.

you. And in the white shirt? The Corbyn, I delivered a letter on

:53:45.:53:48.

Wednesday to the Prime Minister. I am a former Royal Marine and we are

:53:49.:53:52.

concerned about the cuts to defence since 2010. Freedom is not free. I

:53:53.:53:58.

know there have been conflicts which have not been successful in Iraq and

:53:59.:54:02.

Afghanistan. But the security of our liberal democracy depends on a

:54:03.:54:05.

strong defence. Will you therefore guarantee that you will fully fund

:54:06.:54:14.

the agreement of 2015 and defend the defence spending cuts that have

:54:15.:54:17.

undermined our ability to preserve our freedom in the future? Thanks

:54:18.:54:26.

for the questions. On the deployment of British troops, yes, there are

:54:27.:54:33.

deployments, largely through the United Nations, that I think are the

:54:34.:54:37.

right thing to do. I mentioned what went on in East Timor. Great work

:54:38.:54:42.

has been done in peacekeeping in Cyprus by British forces. There has

:54:43.:54:47.

also been incredible work done by Royal Marines and others in helping

:54:48.:54:54.

refugees to survive who have been at risk in the Mediterranean. Talking

:54:55.:54:59.

to people in the Royal Navy about this, someone said to me it was the

:55:00.:55:02.

most amazing work they had done in their lives, which was supporting

:55:03.:55:09.

and protecting life. On the question that Margaret raised about

:55:10.:55:13.

Kurdistan, the Kurdish people were denied their identity by the

:55:14.:55:18.

conclusion of the Treaty of Versailles, and they are still

:55:19.:55:21.

living with the consequences of that. An independent Kurdistan was

:55:22.:55:26.

originally recognised in the Woodrow Wilson 14 points and then

:55:27.:55:32.

obliterated a few years later. There are many Kurdish people in my

:55:33.:55:37.

constituency and I have visited various parts of my life, all parts

:55:38.:55:40.

of Kurdistan and have witnessed the way in which Kurdish people have

:55:41.:55:47.

been badly treated. And that has then provoked a backlash of water. I

:55:48.:55:52.

would be very strong with the Turkish government on its treatment

:55:53.:55:58.

of Turkish people and minorities under way in which it has denied

:55:59.:56:04.

their decency and human rights and use all the legal powers we have on

:56:05.:56:09.

that. If arms are being used to oppress people internally, in

:56:10.:56:12.

violation of international law, they should simply not be supplied to

:56:13.:56:17.

them. Any settlement in Syria and the Middle East must include

:56:18.:56:23.

recognition of the rights of Kurdish people, Armenians and others. If you

:56:24.:56:27.

suppress somebody's identity, which is what has happened with the

:56:28.:56:34.

Kurdish people, you end up with the danger of a much greater conflict

:56:35.:56:38.

later on. It is a question of recognising people's language and

:56:39.:56:44.

identity, which is important for peace. The point our friend raised

:56:45.:56:48.

from the Cyprus High Commission, nice to see you here - two make.

:56:49.:56:55.

Firstly, I support the reunification of Cyprus and the talks to bring

:56:56.:56:59.

that about. Britain has a special role in this because it is a

:57:00.:57:03.

guarantor of the 1960 independence of Cyprus. You and I have discussed

:57:04.:57:09.

this on a number of occasions and we would certainly be active in bring

:57:10.:57:12.

that about. Emily and I have discussed that with you. On foreign

:57:13.:57:19.

policy on Brexit, yes, we will want to work with people. We will

:57:20.:57:25.

obviously still be members of the Council of Europe. We will still be

:57:26.:57:29.

part of the organisation of security and co-operation in Europe, which I

:57:30.:57:33.

see as an important instrument of promoting peace and security across

:57:34.:57:38.

Europe. The point our friend raced from the Royal Marines - yeah, you

:57:39.:57:43.

probably noticed that I made a point about the way in which man is of the

:57:44.:57:49.

Armed Forces have often had a frozen -- members of the Armed Forces have

:57:50.:57:53.

had their pay frozen. Those who are leaving the Armed Forces do not get

:57:54.:57:59.

the support they need and to many are former soldiers who end up in a

:58:00.:58:04.

very difficult situation. So I would look at the welfare issues

:58:05.:58:11.

surrounding our Armed Forces. Your point about the funding of the Royal

:58:12.:58:14.

Marines and others is an important one because actually, it is that

:58:15.:58:21.

capability of defending which is most important. When you said you

:58:22.:58:30.

had delivered a letter, I thought you meant you had delivered a letter

:58:31.:58:39.

to me. What about Trident? The decision of Parliament was to

:58:40.:58:43.

endorse the government's proposal for the replacement of Trident. That

:58:44.:58:46.

is the decision we inherit as a Labour government. We will also

:58:47.:58:54.

undertake a Strategic Defence Review is all incoming governments do,

:58:55.:58:57.

looking at aspects of our defence priorities for the future. But we

:58:58.:59:04.

cannot decide otherwise we would not have a review. We have to end it

:59:05.:59:09.

there. I know everyone has far more questions. And I think that is a

:59:10.:59:12.

measure of the success of the event. I would like to thank you, Jeremy,

:59:13.:59:18.

for making Chatham House the venue where you made your foreign policy

:59:19.:59:23.

and defence speech. Thank you for being so forthcoming. Thank you for

:59:24.:59:28.

answering as many questions as you could. Thank you very much.

:59:29.:59:39.