Northern Ireland Debate Election 2017

Tonight we are live in Northern Ireland where the general election

campaign has been dominated by the impending split from the European

Union which is hardening old sectarian rivalries. Does anyone

want to change this? This is the border. You are now in the Republic

and I am in Northern Ireland or the UK or whatever you like to call it.

We will be debating Northern Ireland's future with senior figures

from the main political parties. Good evening from Belfast. The

general election has come at a time the Northern Ireland where it is

loaded with jeopardy. The political scene isn't tied if it from anywhere

else in the UK. Right now, devolution, store Montt, is

suspended after a bust up and may not return any time soon. That in

turn has huge implications for Northern Ireland's voice in the

Brexit negotiations and the role of the 18 Westminster MPs from Northern

Ireland to be elected. The border is the big issue after Brexit, here

they voted to remain, Northern Ireland would be the only land

frontier with the EU. There are few people who would believe a hard

border would be anything other than disastrous. The EU chief negotiator

has said categorically that the border issue was one of three

priorities to be resolved before Britain can negotiate a trade deal.

Something disputed at the weekend by Brexit secretary David Davis.

Sinn Fein have used Brexit to ramp up the call for unionisation. VDU

pin said that at border poll would destabilise Northern Ireland when

stability is needed. -- VDU P said that a board that told. Before we

debate the issues with the main political parties here the BBC's

Allen correspondence explores the key issue at play in the election

against a divide that seems to be re-asserting itself. Invisible lines

in this land will soon mark where one union ends and another begins.

This will be the edge of both the EU and the UK. Davy Crockett is a

descendant of his namesake the famous American frontiersman. His

farm which straddles the Irish border on the outskirts of

Londonderry. It makes him the king of a new frontier, the one with

Europe. This is the border, you are in the Republic and I am in Northern

Ireland or the UK or whatever you like to call it. I could shake hands

with you here, across the divide. LAUGHTER But, if this border was to

go sometime in the future the EU has made clear that Northern Ireland

could be part of the union, again. You think that being part of the

European Union would be an incentive for people to vote to go for a

united Ireland? No. Agriculture would be better in Europe but the

vast majority of the people they would be afraid of losing what they

would get from the British taxpayer not Europe. But Republicans believe

Brexit could strengthen the case and support for the ultimate aim, united

Ireland. It is only three months since the last vote here, a bitter

assembly election that left the party is deeply divided and Stormont

without a government and Sinn Fein say they will not go back into power

with unionists are less of their demands are met, including

legislation. Legislation that would give official status to the Irish

language. If you feed a crocodile there will come back and look for

more. That was the Democratic Unionist respondents were calls for

an Irish language act. This helps Sinn Fein to its best election

result ever something they celebrated in crocodile costumes.

But, Arlene Foster now appears to be trying to reach out even speaking

Irish when she visited this Catholics poor. -- this Catholics

all. Irish is the first language of just

a quarter of 1% of the population, here., but it is important to the

students. The temporary P leader met... Whether you see yourself as

Irish, Northern Irish or British, Irish is that everyone. But you feel

more Irish than Northern Ireland is? Yes. Does anyone feel Northern

Irish? That the silence might be telling. Reinforcing an Irish

identity is important in Sinn Fein's push for a border poll, a referendum

vote on Irish unity. It is the heart, the Passion the love of the

Irish language and culture, and the hope for the unification of Ireland

but I do not know if this is the temperate, or not. The piece was

that about much of Belfast mark out what seen as Catholic nationalist

areas and Protestant unionists areas. Wendy's think the number of

Catholics will outnumber the number of Protestants? May be ten or 20

years. -- when do you think. If the danger overplaying the number of

Catholics actually supporting a united Ireland? The census figures

might ever play that and here I'm calling to mind evidence I remember

seeing from a public survey, where I saw evidence that a quarter of Sinn

Fein voters would vote for a united Ireland just then. Years of peace

have changed places like Belfast and that is not just about investment,

many accept that the clash of cultures here is part of that

identity, one in five said they see themselves as Northern Ireland

should. But, Tina McKenzie he was part of a now-defunct cross

community party says that the last election shows boaters are motivated

by conflict not compromise. We had the biggest turnout since the Good

Friday Agreement. I think that is a huge show because people actually

help threaten. There was a call from Unionists to say, we might get a

nationalist majority, and it pulls at the strings of people's core

identity. Modern politics in Northern Ireland is still something

of a prisoner to history. That is not surprising when you consider

that many voters lived through years of horrendous violence.

My wife and I were there. I was going in and out of consciousness.

This man was seriously injured in this bombing. My school was smashed

like an egg shell and slipped from here up to here. -- my school. And

my jaw was missing on that side. The IRA attack on a remembrance service

at that time 30 years ago is an event that is impossible to forget.

People today talk garbage about these people have changed, the only

change to get to where they are going and to get control. What do

these terrorists want? They say they want a united Ireland. If they

hadn't have... They would have a united Ireland 30 years ago. Killing

people does not unite people. How people see an want that troubled

past re-remembered is something that divides communities. Legacy and

issues of identity divide people here. Unionists are appealing to the

core based and nationalists to theirs. All adding to many reasons

why there was no strong government. At election time nationalists and

unionists often seem to be speaking a different language, but away from

the heat that battle for votes they need to find ways of understanding

each other otherwise the past will continue to hold future generations,

be they British, Irish or Northern Ireland should. -- or Northern

Irish. STUDIO

I joined now by Sinn Fein's John O'Dowd, Jeffrey from the temporary

P, someone from the Alliance party, Claire Hanna funny SDLP and the,

Steve Aiken. Festival, the implication of Brexit being at the

heart of this election is that reinforcement of the divide. The DUP

with the anybody debate the Brexit. That is true, but 45% of the people

of Northern Ireland also voted the Brexit. We get 30%. -- we get 30%

normally in an election. We are fishing in a big pond. I fish it

volley sense it when -- I sense it when I am canvassing. I think people

are voting DUP to see Brexit delivered. Sinn Fein used the

spectre of Brexit to push the unification for the figures do not

add up because a post Brexit opinion polls that that only 22% support a

united Ireland, are you rowing back from the idea of having a referendum

on a unification? Brexit is the biggest constitutional change on the

talent of Alli since... A year before the Scottish

independence referendum had similar poll... Bring on the referendum with

regards to Irish union ship. She really believe, that there is any

appetite for a vote and unification just now. I think Brexit has

undoubtedly plus BOOING Put it on of the challenges remain about

reconciliation and breakfast shed is any think it is the division and the

damage of a massive constitutional question ball down to a binary yes

or no question. How divisive it was even in the UK. We think, while we

deal with the massive challenge, economic, political shocks of

Brexit, polarising it through green and orange lenses that the most

constructive. It's not the time? The EU P voted for humane --

you are pushing the special designated status than Northern

Ireland, what if that? What we want is the best deal for Northern Allen

going forward, we want to have Northern Ireland not being penalised

by Brexit, but looking at the opportunity. What would it look

like? We keep on talking about the issues around borders, we shouldn't

have any borders across these Allen is a tall, we shouldn't have hard

borders we should have free movement. -- we should not have any

borders across these Allens at all. We need to maintain the flow of the

billion euros a week going back and forth. How would that work, bringing

in the Alliance party here, you are a cross community party, how was

something that Steve Aiken is talking about, no restrictions

whatsoever, that is not then happen if you are outside of the customs

union. That is one of the Bill concerns of this because despite the

fact that the country is quite divided over Brexit with both

Scotland and Northern Ireland with it, we have a government that is

hurtling towards the hardest of Brexit 's, what we would expect from

a government that government that argues that it's feared with the

union with Derry would be to moderate Brexit. -- that fears to

unification. We feel we need to protect the freedom of movement not

the only because it is important economically and socially but

politically in Northern Ireland and is part of the expectation that

blows from the Good Friday Agreement. Do you really leave that

there should be noticed fictions anywhere? It is impossible. We're

talking about two separate economic unit, being enforced on the people

of the island of Alli. We are saying allowed the North to remain in the

EU, when we are coming together to economic units pushed against each

other against the will of the people there will be barriers in place.

Just say, we'll bring you all back into the light as soon as possible.

I metaphor here! LAUGHTER Coming back you, nail me,

how do you squeeze your way through here you are in polarising

positions, you will drop down a hole in the middle. Not at all because in

the last election we polled our best based in the last few years. When

politics polarises it motivates others that think that Brexit cannot

be seen through an Orange or green lens, it affects those on the union

and nationalists I'd and those who do not find themselves in those

times. We need a deal for Northern Ireland as good for the UK. Going

back on the special status, those of us that campaign from remain at how

you could marry up the hard Brexitiers talking about protect our

borders with the free moment that we need and enjoy. We still have not

had the answer but special designated status is not just

necessary but inevitable. We will have to be treated differently

because the specifics circumstances here. The EU understands Northern

Ireland better than London doors. She believed there will have to be

special designated status even know you booted the Brexit and come what

may that is what you wanted. The idea that Brussels knows Northern

Ireland better than London is nonsense. Let's knock that on the

head, London notes this place very well it owns this place. And has

dumped the many, many years. The idea of a united Ireland being

economically viable is unsustainable. -- and has done for

many years. No one around this table is arguing the high BOOING Hard

the own INAUDIBLE It is like the old days Sinn Fein

talk about a united Ireland and blow up the Belfast - Dublin railway.

What it you expect to happen that you would bode per Brexit and

everything would be fine and no be free movement of people and

everything would be fine? We have the Common Travel Area on this

island long before the EU Fx system. But we also had common immigration

policies, common custom policies. We can work them through pragmatically.

I do not think the Dublin or Belfast wants a hard border. But Belfast

needs a government. We need have Stallman functioning so we can take

the decisions but the people that electors so that we can get a

special deal that you talking about. We are going to talk about Stormont.

Do you believe with our pit that you would have a lesser boys in

negotiations? The voice I'm interested in in the relation to the

Brexit debate is the voice of the constitutional reset council which

paid the DUP a lot of money to fund ... Wedded that money come from? It

was a UK referendum that you did not take part in. The lowest turnout in

Northern Ireland was in West Belfast. What we want to do... Let's

not distract. We want to know what the border will

look like. Do you agree that without resolution on the border, there

cannot be a trade deal? We are right at the beginning of the

negotiations, there are all sorts of things to be negotiated. Let's talk

about some of the wider issues. I was down in Dublin yesterday

listening to discussions about the Norway and Sweden border. Looking at

the French- Swiss model. There are alternatives making this happen, the

UK has been a trading nation for over 1000 years, we can make it

work. The problem is not going to be on the UK side of it. It will be

that border posts will be imposed by the EU in the Republic of Ireland.

The Republic of Ireland doesn't want that. They want to make it work with

the UK and we can make it work. Steve's MEP colleague were saying

this week that Dublin should keep its nose out of Northern Ireland's

business and nappy is arguing that London and Dublin should be working

together to get the best possible border. If you have a customs

differentiation and customs duty. You will have to have some measure

of taking care of that at the border. That may not result in the

kind of borders we had in the 1970s which were there for security

reasons but no one has been able to take us to a location where there is

a border between Europe and another nation and show us the seamless

border we expect. It is right we should be concerned about that.

There is talk of a different kind of border, essentially a land border of

airports and ports. Is that impossible? Nothing is impossible in

this day and age. We have modern electronic surveillance. We already

have arrangements between the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland

where there is a massive sharing of information. Every single day.

People who come into Dublin, that information is fed through to

London. Do you fear the spectre of that hard and horrible border?

Absolutely. Not just the economy would be crippled by that but the

intangible benefits that came with peace and free movement and

unimpeded access to the rest of the island. The ticket for nationalists

and the economy as well. As you have outlined, -- particularly for

nationalists. Would a hard Brexit lead to a hard border? The key

question has to be, it is about agricultural business, it is not to

do with tariffs but regulation. Those are the important things we

need to get sorted out. If you have cross-border businesses, one economy

and two countries, a third of your milk production from Northern

Ireland existing in the Republic, is that a problem or not? Of course it

is a problem. We are missing the point, it is an economic border

which currently doesn't exist. The businesses that don't have to pay

tariffs are now going to have to pay those. How do you know that? The

negotiations haven't begun. We know what the current situation is. The

GU P let us down a path with their dark money and of thing else towards

a Brexit but they couldn't ask -- answer those questions before

Brexit. We are leaving the customs union. There is a ferocious and mud

of detail but we have no executive and no government, these two parties

collapsed it without any strategy in place. So nobody is currently

shouting for Northern Ireland. Let us talk about Northern Ireland's

influence in the negotiations. John O'Dowd, if there is no Stormont, a

vote for Sinn Fein is surely totally useless when you don't take your

seats at Westminster and you have no way to influence Brexit. We are

proud Irish republicans, we will not swear allegiance to the Queen of

England. I am not taking an oath of allegiance, always been our

position. What I am saying about that in this situation is if you

don't have a voice at Westminster and you don't have a voice at store

-- a voice at Stormont, where is your influence? Won our voice is

heard loud and clear across Ireland and in London. I sat with the Welsh

executive and the Scottish executive and the British government when we

had an executive and not only were our views ignored but the views of

the Welsh and Scottish secretaries were ignored as well. Which vote you

overturned in Westminster in relation to Brexit? They've added

themselves to represent their people. BST P position, that you

think Sinn Fein is letting down the people of Ireland... You'll grow

because they are making us all at station lists from Stormont at the

moment. The SDLP have turned over every stone on Brexit. We have had

five years or press releases from Sinn Fein. So do you think Stormont

is useless then. I am asking which Brexit wrote did they overturn? He

wants us to believe that three MPs can have no impact in the 650 MPs

but your four -- your four MEPs contains the world. Do you say a

plague on both your houses, do you pay and Sinn Fein for not sorting

out this business. -- DQ P and Sinn Fein. You are looking at direct rule

again. That is the worst thing that could happen in the context of

Northern Ireland. If John believes that the current government is

insensitive to Northern Ireland's needs, then what better way to place

a buffer between the people he represents and the government in

London than to have devolution operational? I spent five years in

Westminster and it is quite possible to change people's minds through

persuasion and argument and a voting. I changed the law as a

single member of Parliament. No you can't do that by walking around

talking to people at Westminster and hiring rooms and by sending out

press releases but you can do it if you turn up and work with others. I

changed a law about donations. One law in five years. And I influenced

change on others. The UUP position on the return of Stormont. We

definitely want it back up and running. In the talks that were

going before, we would getting fairly close to consensus of all the

parties together on Brexit. We were working very closely, John, you were

there, Claire, Naomi, we were getting close to actually having a

document and a policy we could take forward. We need to get the Northern

Ireland assembly backed up and running as soon as the election is

out of the way and get the executive up and running. Do you think the

glory days of Stormont might be over? Because when you had Martin

McGuinness and Ian Paisley, who could command their communities, it

was a completely different matter and it worked. But without them,

none of you here has the power to reinstate double properly. I don't

agree with that at all. Four of the parties represented her are ready to

get Stormont up and running, there is any one party not to go into

government and they are holding the whole of Northern Ireland to ransom

and that party is Sinn Fein. Let me be clear, the GU P has no

preconditions for going back into government. -- DQ P. By refusing to

make the progress required. We have no preconditions. Sinn Fein are

blocking that. Are we entering a period of instability in Northern

Ireland? Won I desperately hope we are not. We need strong voices in

West Minster making the case but it doesn't need to be that way, we have

sold bigger problems with this with the right attitude. I would like to

apologise for the slightly strange lighting throughout this debate,

thanks to you. What engagements does she have

planned for the rest of the day? Gil I have engagements to take the

programme the Scotland and I will take part in the ITV leaders debate

which of course, Theresa May is docking. Ruth Davidson. We don't

have enough teachers in Scotland. Given the fact that all sides accept

this, does the First Minister agree with me that when young people here

choose teaching as a career, we should do everything we can to

ensure they