Plaid Cymru Election Questions

Plaid Cymru leader Leanne Wood faces questions here from the audience.

Welcome to Election Questions 2017. Good evening. For the second time

during this campaign, the UK has been struck by a terror attack.

Tonight, days before your vote, the leader of Plaid Cymru faces

questions from this audience. They are a mix of supporters from the

main parties and undecided voters. So please welcome the leader of

Plaid Cymru, Leanne Wood. APPLAUSE

And by the way, you can join in tonight's abate online the hashtag

is #BBCDebate. Our first question is from Gail Jones. Leaving. What are

the three main things that you think can be done to combat terrorism.

Kamei first of all say that I would like to place on record my

condolences with everyone who is affected by this as well as what

happened in Manchester last week. It is absolutely terrible that young

people in particular on a night out are targeted in this way, and I and

a stand that many people will be fearful about this happening again.

It is very difficult, especially with the incident that happened last

night, to see exactly how things like that can be prevented in the

future. I have said a number of times that we should try to tackle

the root cause of this. What is it? Why do we not fully understand what

it is that makes someone commit an act like this? Not individual

isolated incidents, there are patterns now, not just in the UK but

throughout Europe as well. So there is something going on, something

that is making people do this, and unless we understand the root cause

and try to tackle the root cause, then I fear that people will

continue to be motivated to commit these acts. So we need to try and

understand what it is is motivating people. Then we need to try and make

sure that people are trained up properly to challenge those

ideologies. I used to work as a probation officer, and I wouldn't

know where to start, if I'm honest, challenging somebody who was quoting

from say the Koran in order to try to justify the certain beliefs. We

need to make sure people are properly trained, people from those

amenities themselves, peer-to-peer challenging of those ideologies, but

we haven't even begun to do any of that yet. What we have done yet is

cut youth services, cut probation services, the kind of community

services that are in a strong position to challenge those beliefs.

The third thing I would do is invest properly in public services.

It is the emergency services who run into situations of danger

when everyone else is running away, and there have been cuts

to the police, to the health services in addition to the youth

services and social services that I've already said.

People today understandably are all paying tribute

to our emergency services and public sector workers, and I would

But the real way that we can show that we value those people

is to make sure that they've got the resources they need

Whether they are teachers in schools, whether they are police

or emergency services, whether they are A

They have all been working under very difficult conditions

because of the Tory cuts, and proper resource of our public

services is the best way to show how much we value those public servants.

And Theresa May in Downing Street today said four things need to be

done, including going tougher on Internet companies

Well, she said today that we've been too tolerant of extremism,

If she has been Home Secretary for six years prior

to being Prime Minister, since 2010 she has been

in a position to do something about this, and if we have been too

soft on extremists, as she claims, then does

she need to take some responsibility for that?

Let's take the gentleman in black there.

How much of an impact do you think British foreign policy such

as interventions in Libya and the Iraq war have contributed

to acts such as what we have seen in the last couple of weeks?

I think it's a fact to say that we are less safe

since the invasion of Iraq and the intervention in Afghanistan.

I'm not convinced that there is an absolute direct link,

because there have been events, atrocities, in countries that have

not participated in those countries in the same way as the UK has.

But what it does do is it provides those propaganda points to those,

the terrorists who want to recruit into their cause to point

We don't have the moral high ground after what happened,

But it's much more complicated, I think, than to link

There are a number of different issues going on here,

and what we must do, all of us, is to be able to talk

openly about what they possibly could be, put them all on the table,

and work out what it is that is causing people to act in this way

and try to nip it in the bud at source rather than to try to deal

The Investigatory Powers Bill, for example, in Parliament.

Because that was about mass surveillance, and we oppose

We would support targeted surveillance, and we would support

our intelligence services with resources to be able

If you are watching everyone, mistakes will happen and people

But we don't know where the threat is coming from always, do we?

No, and that's why security services, intelligence services,

are really important, but also if you're funding

properly your youth services and your teachers, and you're

training your teachers properly to look out for signs,

instead of cutting those services, then you've got a better chance

OK, let's take a few points from the audience, then.

The gentleman there, who's been waiting a long time,

Your first point about tackling the root cause of the problem.

What do you actually feel the root cause is?

OK, just hold that one, and we'll take another one, thank you.

You happened to mention that she voted against surveillance,

but I just feel that if you're not doing anything wrong,

what is the problem with being watched?

Well, I think that we have civil liberties, and we have to take

Obviously security is the most important job of a government.

But also we have to protect our civil liberties as well.

We have to have certain freedoms, and I think we just need to be very,

very careful before we give up some of the freedoms that we have.

I don't think there's one single answer that question.

I think there are possibly a number of different causes,

but unless we can have an honest and open debate about that,

for example when the question of links to foreign policy was put

out on the table, there was a political outcry to that.

Well, that's not helpful in terms of trying to get

I don't think that is the single root cause.

I think that marginalisation, alienation, racism, all play a part,

There are clearly a number of different multiple factors

contributing towards people taking these actions.

They are young people, they may be impressionable.

There may be things that we can do in terms of that dark

But I'm absolutely clear, unless we can shine a light

on the problem and allow open discussion about it,

then it's going to be very difficult to actually

In school, I was always told you had to respect other people,

respect other people's property, respect other people's views

I feel the politicians don't help, and I thought that last week

was an example of that when you descended into bickering,

shouting louder, pointing fingers at each other,

not respecting each other's point of view.

Isn't it about time you became more measured and more respectful of each

It is quite difficult sometimes in these debate scenarios

to try to get your point across when the presenter doesn't

allow you time and things like that, so I think that is possibly why

I mean, we do need to show respect to each other when we have

political discussion, and I think as politicians we have

to take responsibility as well for the language that we use,

and I'm particularly concerned with some of the statements that

I hear coming from some politicians, especially when we talk around

difficult subjects like immigration, that some of them use dog whistles

to try and whip people's emotions up, and that doesn't help

Lots of hands up, but I'm afraid we have to go

to the second question now, which comes from Dave Webb.

If you're honest and realistic, how much influence do you feel a few

Plaid MPs can have on the terms of any Brexit negotiations?

Well, what I'm clear about is if there are no Plaid Cymru

MPs in Westminster after this election, then the chance

of Wales's voice being heard at all is pretty much nil,

The only way that Wales's needs are going to be on the agenda

as we leave the European Union, the only way our farming industry

is going to be taken account of, the only way that the ?680 million

that we currently get as redistributed wealth

from the European Union to Wales are the only way we can get those

guarantees is if we've got some people there in Westminster fighting

Theresa May has a very clear idea as to where she wants to go,

She wants either a very hard Brexit, or she's prepared to walk away

Either of those scenarios would be bad news for Wales.

Plaid Cymru has put jobs at the heart of everything

we do and say in terms of the Brexit negotiations.

We have 200,000 jobs that are reliant on tariff free access

We have to have Plaid Cymru MPs there to defend those jobs,

but not only defend what we've got, we've also got to create those

conditions, and have the powers to improve the economy as well.

But you say in your manifesto we will secure the money promised

to Wales by the Leave campaign, which is ?350 million a week,

And any government doesn't really acknowledge the Leave

So what would you do if you didn't get that money?

You're stamping your feet but you have no power.

Well, we are asking for the mandate to make that point.

That is money that we have had coming to us because some

of our communities are some of the poorest parts

We've got a government in Wales that is already talking

about cutting Communities First money, and not replacing that

anti-poverty programme with anything else.

Our communities can't afford to lose this money.

We have to see continued redistribution of wealth

to those communities, or otherwise we're going

It is a scandal that wages in Wales are 10% behind the UK average...

Lots of hands up, thank you very much.

Oh, the lady in the back first with the specs,

At the moment I understand that Wales gains about ?245 million more

Where do you envisage that kind of money coming from if we don't get

Well, it has to come from Westminster, that's the point.

During the campaign, the Leave campaign and prominent

Tories in the Leave campaign said that we wouldn't be a penny worse

off in Wales if we voted to leave the European Union.

It's up to us to hold them to account for that,

and I'm asking people in Wales to give Plaid Cymru a mandate

by electing the maximum number of Plaid Cymru MPs to go

to Westminster and make exactly that point.

The gentleman in the front here, thank you.

Are you delusional, really, about your stature

in where we are as a party, or where you are

You've only got 11 MPs, 12 AMs and one controlled council in Wales.

How do you foresee that you are going to be getting this?

I'm not quite sure where you got your numbers from there,

It's very clear that the SNP represents Scotland.

They've got a very strong voice and they make sure that Scotland's

voice is heard because people in Scotland vote in big

The only way we will get Wales heard to the same extent is if we elect

OK, the gentleman in the back there, thank you.

Why do you think that Plaid Cymru haven't got the traction in Wales

We're a different country, we're different party,

we're at different stages of our devolution journey.

I'm very hopeful that we can get to the point where the SNP

are in terms of running the government and getting to that

point where we can have a proper discussion about where we want to go

But we are in a different place, and the priority for Wales right now

is making sure that we get those economic powers to turn

We get told all the time that we are too poor and too small

to even be able to dream of being an independent country,

yet those same politicians that say that, those Labour and Conservative

politicians, oppose the economic levers that we should have in Wales

that we could use to turn around that situation.

So we need those powers before we can move, really.

Both Plaid Cymru and Welsh Labour seem very similar to the electorate,

What is it that Plaid Cymru can deliver for Wales that Labour

in Westminster cannot deliver for us?

And the lady there with the red hair, you had your hand up.

A few minutes ago, Leanne, you were stating that

you expected a certain amount of money from Westminster.

You quickly moved on to devolution and how you felt that was the way

forward, comparing us to the SNP in Scotland.

Are you expecting Wales's economy to be lying at the feet

of the MPs in Westminster, or do you believe that Wales can

stand on its own two feet and move forward in the future?

I believe we can stand on our own two feet,

but in order to do that, we need the powers to make

At the moment, we don't have powers over taxation.

We may get powers over income tax, but they would be in a very narrow

field, and there are plenty of other taxation powers and other

economic levers, powers over renewable energy,

for example, that we could put to good use.

The gentleman there with the specs, thank you.

There are all kinds of politicians with all kinds of agendas as far

Can you promise us that the best interests of Wales will be the only

thing on your agenda in the coming years after this election?

Well, Plaid Cymru is set up and designed to advocate for Wales,

but I would say as well I'm interested in international

And I want Wales to take its part in the world.

I want us to be able to cooperate with citizens in other

I think part of the problems that we have, some of the root

of the problems that we have at the moment is there seems

to be some of superiority complex on behalf of some.

We are better than those other people in other parts

That's not helpful in terms of negotiation.

We should approach these negotiations like adults, as equals,

and try to get the best deal for people in all parts

But within the British context, what I fear is that we have been

Gibraltar has had more attention than Wales has had since June,

and that situation will continue unless we have a strong

voice defending Wales in Westminster after June the 8th.

Now, then, let's go on to question number three, which tonight

Do you believe that most electors would be willing to have a small

increase in taxation if this means safeguarding vital services?

It would be good to have proper time to have a debate about that.

The difficulty with a snap election is that lots of issues are crammed

But there are real crises ahead if we don't try to address

We all know about the crisis in care.

But just on tax, because it is a very simple question.

Do you agree that may be, do you think...

Public services need to be paid for through taxation,

And would you be willing to put up taxes to fund that?

Yes, for those who can afford to pay the most, we would.

It's not on the manifesto, though, is it?

Well, we would also be open to considering other increases

in taxes to pay for our public services, but in a British context

looking at British tax rates, we don't have income tax devolved

Would you put income tax up when you have the levers that are coming?

We are open to discussion about that and we would like time

But in principle would you put income tax up for higher earners

I think public services need investment.

If we are going to invest in public services, they need to be paid

for and the only fair way to do that is through taxation.

For the additional rate income tax, people who currently pay 45%,

we would like to see that go up to 50%.

That would bring in, in a British context,

?3 billion extra to spend on public services, but when income tax comes

to Wales, we would be having a different conversation.

It is not in the manifesto, though, is it?

Because we are not in a Welsh Assembly election.

That is why it is not in the manifesto.

But it's a UK general election and in principle people want to know

is Plaid Cymru a tax-raising party or not?

What we have got in our manifesto is the principle that the people

who earn more pay more and that is why we are raising

Would you like to see a rise in corporation tax?

I would like to see the ability to apply different rates

of corporation tax depending on what it is you want to do.

I think corporation tax could give us the possibility to be used,

to be raised or reduced, to incentivise job creation

and I would like the Assembly to have full powers over corporation

tax to be able to have different rates in different parts of Wales

or in different sectors depending where you want to

Don't you feel instead of raising taxation that we should

I think we have to do both but I believe in the principle

of well funded public services, the social security safety net,

a paid for and free health service, good quality education,

decent pensions so that our pensioners don't find

themselves in poverty, and benefits to enable people

who have disabilities to fulfil as much of a role

If we want all those things, then we need to be able to pay

for them through taxation but also we can reprioritise the way we spend

I wouldn't spend ?200 billion on replacing Trident for example.

I would prioritise that cash for public services.

We are paying taxes, we are funding it and for us

to raise it because we need to find that extra cash, why don't

We are about to spend ?5 billion on renovating

the palaces of Westminster, another ?400 million

renovating Buckingham Palace, one of the richest families

in the world, and we as taxpayers are paying that bill.

Of course we can reorganise our priorities.

You make an absolutely perfectly good point but we also need to think

about how we long-term fund our public services and

The gentleman there and then the gentleman there,

With corporation tax I think there should be thresholds.

For example if a company earns X amount of net profit,

then that is where the threshold should come in.

I would like to have a Welsh policy for corporation tax and if we look

at the potential opportunities that we have as we leave

the European Union, then Welsh control over corporation tax

and the ability to vary it along the lines you suggest is something

Thank you very much, we are going to move on now

to the next question which comes from Jack Knight.

Your party campaigned to remain in the EU but you also want

Why are some unions better than others?

I want Wales to be an equal partner in any union and the reason

that we supported the Remain campaign is that we wanted Wales

to take its place in the European family of nations as an equal.

Now, regardless of whether or not we are in the European Union

or whether we are outside of it there are going to be

reasons to cooperate across the European Union,

There may well be a referendum on independence for

If they decide to leave the UK, the UK will be no more,

but there will still need to be cooperation across the borders

between England, Wales, Ireland and Scotland

I think the same will happen with the European Union as well.

We are not in the independence threshold for Wales yet.

You have often said now is not the time, it's a very different

It is now on page two of your manifesto so it is clearly

It has always been one of our party aims, hasn't it?

It has always been on the front page.

When do you see independence for Wales?

It's impossible to put a timescale on it.

We have said we will move as far and as fast as people

We will always be putting the case for more powers for Wales,

for asking Wales to have more of a say over the decisions

In principle we believe the decisions about Wales should be

made in Wales and we have always advocated that principle.

If it's a very hard Brexit, would that be the time to trigger

We need to look very carefully at what that final deal looks like.

If that final deal is going to be very bad for Wales, then we need

to consider all options at that time.

Would you push for independence at that point?

Well, other things could change as well.

I have already mentioned the possibility of Scotland leaving

Whatever happens is people here in Wales should

We are not going to take people further than they want

We have already had two referendums on our national institutions

here in Wales and Plaid Cymru has always said that it is the people

who will drive the debate on this in Wales and that is a matter

Just very quickly, the gentleman here, thank you.

Without funding from the European Union or funding

from Westminster, how on earth is Wales ever going to stand

Do you know what, every other independent nation in the world

manages to raise the money that it spends on public services.

We haven't got the population to do that?

There are many countries in the world that are independent

and have smaller population numbers than Wales does.

Many countries are in that situation.

I believe that people in Wales are no more inferior

That is all you have to do, have enough good jobs,

pay enough good salaries with the right tax rates

so you have a tax pot that you can afford to fund your public services.

It is as simple as that, there is no reason why we can't get

Thank you very much, let's take a point from

Mine is a follow-up from the gentleman's question.

If independence was granted, what do you think you could do to help Wales

Well, we have to get to that point where we can balance our books

so for me it is all about jobs and the economy.

I mentioned earlier that wages in Wales are 10% behind

We have been able to attract European funds because of the high

The union and this current situation that we are in is not helping us.

We are not able to get out of the poverty that we are in with

the constrained powers that we have, so we must insist on improving

the powers that we get in our national Assembly

so that we can improve our economic performance.

We are into the last minute of the programme,

You seem to be advocating a policy now of independence

from the UK because of Brexit, which was voted on by the majority

There we are and that's the final point.

It was and we accept the result, but if the final deal

is a bad one for Wales, and I am pretty sure you would not

want a bad deal for Wales where 200,000 jobs were at risk,

where we were at risk of losing our farming industry,

then I am pretty sure that you would want us to make

a big noise about that and try to reject it for Wales.

So in that context, then I think we should look at all options

But let's hope we can get a good deal for Wales.

That is what Plaid Cymru will be fighting for.

Sorry, still hands up, but thank you ever so much.

Thank you to Leanne Wood and thanks to our audience here in Swansea.

Remember, you can continue to have your say on social media

From all of us here, nos da, good night.