24/10/2017 First Minister's Questions


24/10/2017

Full coverage of AM's questions to the first minister from the Senedd in Cardiff Bay.


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Good afternoon. Welcome to our weekly coverage of questions to the

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First Minister. Carwyn Jones will be quizzed by the other party leaders

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and by fellow Assembly Members on a range of topics from poverty to

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immigration controls. You can see more details on our Twitter account.

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Business has started. Let's look at today's questions to the First

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Minister. TRANSLATION: I call members to order

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and the first item on the agenda is questions to the First Minister. The

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first question is withdrawn. Therefore, question two. How does

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the Welsh government ensure patient safety in Wales? Well, we hold all

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NHS organisations to account on a wide range of patient safety

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indicators and we encourage an opening reporting culture to enable

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full investigation of every case. Thank you, minister. In North Wales

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we were shocked to learn that of the 77 unintended or unexpected

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incidents resulting in patient deaths registered across Wales, in

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the past 12 months, more than half of these fell within the university

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health board. Every single unwith of the case will have been devastating

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to the family and loved ones of these patients. First Minister

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Questions, will be asked to how the special measures and indeed, your

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government's intervention in realising any improvement in now to

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the contrary. I am asking you now, will you please commit to an inquiry

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as to why the safety of patients under this board and your

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government's responsibility appears to be increasingly compromised.

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Well, the member doesn't fully understand the way the statistics

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are compiled. Rubbish. We encourage honesty and openness and that means

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we encourage people to report serious incidents. Now that means

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just like the crime statistics, for example, that where more people

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report serious incidents then more are recorded. It doesn't mean there

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are actually more serious incidents. That said, of course, we want it

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make sure the incidents are reported. Nothing should be said or

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done that will discourage reporting in the future because we want to

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make sure the incidents are reported and out in the open. I can say to

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the member in 2016/2017 the mortality rate was 1.79% which is

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less than the waste average of 1.81%. It is important that every

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case is investigated and it is important that people come forward

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and there is an open culture dealing with complaints and that is what I

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believe we are seeing here. More complaints coming forward rather

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than more cases coming forward. Question three. What work is the

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Welsh government undertaking to tackle fuel poverty. Since 2011 we

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have invested ?240 million to improve the energy efficiency of all

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45,000 homes and we have installed energy efficiency measures to low

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income households. Despite the progress being made to reduce fuel

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poverty through the Welsh government's suite of actions it

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seems unlikely that the target will be met. Does the Welsh government

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plan to review the fuel poverty strategy and what lessons will be

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drawn interest the successful and not so successful elements of the

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current plan? The survey is underway. It will provide important

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data help inform delivery of prosperity. It will provide us with

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information including updated national fuel poverty estimates and

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da to help with the targeting of delivery measures and help us to

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inform discussions with stakeholdest and it will mean, of course, that we

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can draw on the data the survey provides in order to help to

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strengthen the strategy in the future. First Minister, I agree with

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what you said about energy efficiency, but it is quite a

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startling fact according to Citizens Advice, only 12% of those on lowest

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incomes are on the lowest available tariffs and I think there is a jb to

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be done to inform people of the tariffs that available and Welsh

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government and local authorities and housing associations perhaps when

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they are doing the various schemes that you are referring to can remind

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people how important it is to seek out the lowest tariff. People tend

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to stick with the same provider through convenience and they fail to

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get the best deal. What will help, of course, is to see as the UK

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government has adopt add Labour Party policy, caps on variable

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energy tariffs. It will help many people who are not who have not

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taken the opportunity to change their tariffs or find they are not

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able to do to so to benefit from lower prices.

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TRANSLATION: Questions from the party leaders. First of all, Plaid

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Cymru lieder, Leanne Wood. I am aware of the public health arguments

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and the needs to reduce death from cancer in particular, but public

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health policy should be looking at all problematic substance use. What

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assessment has your government made of the impact of minimum pricing,

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alcohol pricing, on the use of other substances like illegal drugs? There

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will be some people, of course, who have an addiction. It maybe that

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there are some who then look at illegal drugs, but for the mast

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majority of people this will have two outcomes. Firstly, it will help

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reduce the health issues that surround over drinking and secondly,

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actually, it will help pubs because it's the pubs who suffer the most as

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a result of supermarket selling that under cuts pubs which we know are

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important for our communities. There is a commercial aspect to this as

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well. We make no apologies for wanting to ensure that we get rid of

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scenarios where very cheap alcohol is available to people in a way that

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causes them to drink too much and therefore affects their health. I

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have some sympathy with the arguments that you have just

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outlined but from your answer it doesn't appear as if any assessment

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has been made between that link, which I hope very much is an

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oversight, First Minister. We need to reduce drug related deaths as

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well as alcohol related deaths. Now, drug related deaths have reached a

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record high in Wales and in England according to latest figures, drug

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related deaths are up 44% compared to 2012. For Wales only figures,

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there was also an increase on the previous year. 168 people lost their

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lives in 2015. Hospital admissions are also up which means an increased

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could to public services and to the NHS and anecdotally we all know that

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some people are openly using drugs in public places, on our streets, in

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town centres, where it is less safe, both for them and for others. First

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Minister, can you explain how your substance misuse strategy is using

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devolved powers to reduce drug related hospital admissions and drug

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related deaths? One of the problems that we face is the Misuse of Drugs

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Act has found it difficult to keep up with new drugs as they asphere on

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to the market, drugs like Spice. The leader of Plaid Cymru is right,

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there is too much open use of drugs and dealers who seem not to be too

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concerned about being caught. The first thing to do is to target the

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dealers. They need to be convicted and jailed. That's where they

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belong, off the streets, yes, it is true to say others may come forward,

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but it is important to send that message. How do we deal with people

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who misuse drugs? Well, the substance misuse strategy is there

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to help do that. It is a combination to mined of medical intervngs, but

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also being strong in term of clamping done on people who supply

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the drugs. While locking up the dealers hasn't worked so far and the

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powers are out of your control, what you have control over, is health.

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Now, a harm reduction approach has been proven to be the most effective

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at reducing drug related deaths and you claim to be committed to article

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harm reduction approach. We won't know whether the actions you have

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taken are sufficient until the new Welsh statistics come out this

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winter, but of course, the Wales and England statistics that we've

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already seen don't bode well. If you are serious about reducing drug

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related deaths as well as reducing the wider social problems, you would

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be open to the solutions proposed by Plaid Cymru police and crime

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commissioner. Will you agree to meet and provide the police and others

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the support they need to enable a suitably located pilot safe

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injecting facility which would reduce harm to the public, as well

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as help to reduce unnecessary deaths from harmful drugs? Well, there are

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already regular meetings that take place between the police and crime

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commissioners and ministers in any eye vent. It is right to say, that

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there is very little point, nor would it be right to see substance

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misuse as something that would be a crime. There are people who have

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medical issues, the suppliers are different, but those people, of

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course, who are in the position where they misuse substances the

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intervention for them has to be medical and that means working with

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the police, that's true. It's what the substance misuse strategy is

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designed to do. She has said we are waiting for the Welsh figures. And

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we want to make sure the Welsh figures show that we are seeing a

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positive effect on substance misuse. But the challenge is always there,

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how do you deal with in new drugs that appear all the time from drugs

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that didn't economist in 1971? She is right to mention heroin. But it's

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hugely important that as we do, that we develop and give our substance

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misuse strategy the time to develop and in that way, I believe, we will

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help more and more people to get off the substances that they become

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addicted. TRANSLATION: Thank you, Presiding

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Officer. There are pressures across the United Kingdom when it comes to

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the Health Service. In June 2015, your government took into special

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measures the North Wales health board and in March this year, you

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said that actually where deficits run out of control and problems

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exist in other health boards across Wales, you might well have to

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consider intervening in those health boards. What we've learnt is that

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the deficit has doubled in the North Wales health board, waiting time

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have gone up by 79%, from 4858 to 8700 and the deficit is projected at

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the end of this year to be ?100 million. That's over the three

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years. ?50 million for thisunder financial year, the previous two was

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?25 million. How can people have confidence that your government is

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putting the health board on the road to cofr rye and the concerns that

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are raised by the member are being addressed when the statistics show

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on waiting time and recruitment and deficit control and reduction you

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are missing your own targets? First of all, to clarify his suggestion

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there will be a ?100 million deficit, we don't expect the health

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boards to come in with a deficit by the end of this financial year. With

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the greatest respect, your own board papers, they are projecting a

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deficit in this financial year of ?50 million. It's not my

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calculation, it's their cal lags and they talk of unless there are

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mitigating measures and actions implemented to bring that deficit

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down, that deficit will exist. Here in Cardiff, you were saying that

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isn't the case. Your own managers and directors in North Wales who are

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responsible for the day-to-day delivery of service are saying there

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is this deficit. You can't have the two working there. Perhaps that is a

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cause for concern that you're so disconnected from what is happening

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on the ground. I ask you again First Minister with waiting time going

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through the roof and the deficit not in control and the enable to recruit

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and retain staff, either GP level or in the hospitals, how after nearly

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three years under your direct supervision and control can the

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residents of North Wales can confidence that their health board

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is on the road to recovery. We don't expect the health board to be in

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deficit. If they identify an issue, they must deal with it. He talks

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about waiting lists going through the roof and offers no evidence. He

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says there are problems with recruitment and retention. We have

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been successful in filling training places in terms of nursing

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application, do you know what GPs say to us and I have had this from

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one consultant, he said the reason why I wanted to come to Wales was I

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like the recruitment campaign and two other words, Jeremy Hunt!

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Why are waiting times that much better in the UK than here? You say

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they are not, but the 12 hour wait in England is 78 people out of a

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population of 55 million. 12 hours or more in accident and emergency.

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In Wales, the figure was 2438 out of a population of 3 million. They are

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not my figures, they are yours. What I'm trying to seek is an ability to

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have confidence, and I'm using the waiting times that your government

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published last week that said they had doubled from 4858 up to 8000

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708. I use the deficit figures that the health board themselves have

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published in their board report. I use the example that the health

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board themselves say that the deficit will exist at the end of the

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financial year unless mitigating actions are taken. So everything I

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have quoted to you has come either from the health board or statistics

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from your own government. I really seek assurances from you, first

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ministers, after nearly two and a half years of your government being

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in direct control of the North Wales health board that the health board

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is progressing to a situation where waiting times will come down, Doctor

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vacancies will be filled, and above all, the deficit will come under

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control. On two occasions you have failed to give any assurances to

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date. That tells you more about sure grip on reality than it does about

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anything else. All I can say to him is there has been a complete

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abdication of responsibility towards the NHS in England. Every time the

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health boards underperforms, it's never the fault of the Conservatives

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or Jeremy and Karen is to let me give him a figure that is correct so

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he can mull over -- or Jeremy Vine. In England, the highest waiting list

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on record is there -- Jeremy Hunt. There were 409,342 patients over the

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English target, more than doubling over the last three years. We know

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in Wales, we have gone in the other direction. And he sits there and

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acquiesces, in a fund to Northern Ireland, he did nothing to represent

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his country. He did nothing to represent his country. What

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representation has he made to the UK Government, and his colleagues, dim

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demand that Wales should get the Barnett equivalent of his money --

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nothing. He is too scared of them. Returning to the theme mentioned

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Bailly of Plaid Cymru, the minimum pricing for alcohol, how can the

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First Minister support a measure which is so regressive in the way it

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works? This is a measure which is explicitly designed,

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disproportionally, to target those drinks which are consumed in

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disproportionate measures by people on low incomes. It is well-known

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that low-income households by fewer units of alcohol, but more of what

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they buy is priced at less than 40p per unit. Where is the equity in the

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measure that leaves the champagne socialist of the posh suburbs of

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Cardiff unaffected, but targets the beer drinkers? Is he seriously

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saying that people on low incomes are proportionally bigger drinkers?

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That is a snobbery I have never quite seen before. And the

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consequence of his argument is that, in that case, we should reduce the

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tax on tobacco, because that is disproportionately regressive as

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well, so let's reduce the tax on tobacco. It's exactly the same

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argument. What we want to do is make sure that alcohol does not get

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cheaper and cheaper, as it has done, so that people drink more and more

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because they see it as cheap. As I said early on, there is an issue

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here for the pubs. Pubs have been hammered year after year by cheap

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supermarket alcohol, and pubs are responsible places where people

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drink. They look after people and do not serve people who are drunk and

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pubs are being lost at a rate of knots in our community. You speak to

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any public, they will say part of the reason is that are buying cheap

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supermarket alcohol sold below cost price at some points. Of course

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there is a health aspect, but as a side issue, we know that one of the

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consequences is that it will provide a level play-off -- playing field

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for the pubs as well. I said the opposite actually, that people on

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low incomes by less alcohol overall than people on higher incomes, but

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more of the alcohol they drink is cheaper brands, not more expensive

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brands, so it will have a disproportionally tough effect on

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people on low incomes. The Centre for economic and business research

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said in 2009 that there is substantial evidence that heavier

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drinkers are least responsive to price changes. The problem alcohol

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drinkers are the ones least likely to respond to the measures which are

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now being proposed. What will happen here is that the real problem

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drinkers will carry on drinking but have less money to spend on things

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like food. So in other dietary respects, their health will suffer.

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This will have no positive impact whatsoever. The only people who will

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really benefit are the supermarkets, because this is not a tax being

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imposed, you can just raise the price of a cheap product and that

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will produce extra profits for the supermarket and certainly not for

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pubs. The same argument can be used for cigarettes. If you're saying the

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tax for cigarettes should be reduced, let's hear him say that. As

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far as arguments on alcohol are concerned, if it is cheaper, people

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will drink more. This is a way of ensuring the balance is right

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between the price of alcohol and people's Hell. I see nothing wrong

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with that and it's a hugely important thing that we have a

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responsible attitude to alcohol rather than buy one get one free, by

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two, get one free. These are not always the cheapest brands. They are

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often on brands proportionally quite expensive and that is the way that

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people are encouraged to buy more and drink more, which surely we

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don't want to encourage. There is a problem with a relatively small

:20:17.:20:20.

number of people who overindulge, and of course, we want to target

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them. But the problem with a measure of this kind is that it is so

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scatter gun in the approach that it penalises the many who are moderate

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drinkers, not having any measurable effect on those who we do want to

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help. I don't follow the logic. He could stand up and say that it

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penalises the occasional smoker, so the duty on tobacco should be

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reduced. The two things have the same kind of effect. For me, it's

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hugely important as a society that we don't have alcohol sold below

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cost price, as we see in supermarkets, and we don't have

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people being encouraged to buy more alcohol. That encourages people who

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might be moderate drinkers to drink more than is good for them and that

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is something we are keen to avoid. As it happens, as a side-effect, it

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also enables pubs to be able to compete on a level playing field

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with the supermarkets who have driven so many pubs out of business.

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Don't talk to me, talk to publicans and they will tell you this. The

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difference in price proportion between supermarket alcohol and pub

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alcohol is greater than ever before. We need to make sure that people

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have a place to go in villages where they live, through pubs, and that's

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not the intention of the legislation, it is to deal with

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health but there are wider effects we have identified. How is the Welsh

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government using public procurement to drive up horticultural production

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in Wales? The National procurement service develops Pearl -- Collabro

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trip approaches to apply this to the public sector -- collaborative

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approaches. I have just come from the vegetable summit being held in

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the pierhead at the same time as in London and Edinburgh. And we heard

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really important pledges from a wide variety of producers and promoters

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of four example, children's rights. The children's Commissioner

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highlighted the fact that nearly 80% of people aged five to ten are not

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eating enough vegetables and 95% of 11 to 16-year-olds are not eating

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enough vegetables to be able to learn and play effectively. This is

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a children's rights issue. We heard important pledges from the largest

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supermarket in the UK, Tesco, who have agreed to buy seasonal veg, as

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well as putting more vegetables in meal deals. And Cardiff University

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and Cardiff met and the health board in Cardiff, Cardiff Council, they

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are all pledging to serve and promote more vegetables in their

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pubs, canteens and dining rooms. What can we do to ensure that that

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increased purchase of vegetables comes from Welsh producers rather

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than other UK outlets, or indeed from abroad? Can I welcome the fact

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that the vegetable summit is taking place and as we speak it brings

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together farmers, retailers, processors and government looking at

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the supply chain and how we can raise vegetable production. We are

:23:30.:23:32.

committed through the food and drink action plan which we share with

:23:33.:23:37.

industry boards to not only grow the sector but use it sustainably to

:23:38.:23:41.

tackle the challenges of diet and the National procurement service has

:23:42.:23:44.

set up buying arrangements that allow public bodies to access a wide

:23:45.:23:47.

range of vegetable products to support healthy meal planning.

:23:48.:23:56.

Following on from Jenny Rathbone's question, can you tell us what

:23:57.:23:59.

discussions the Welsh government has had with local authorities on food

:24:00.:24:05.

procurement in the public sector to ensure that more local producers are

:24:06.:24:11.

used by local authorities, and also, can you tell us one thing that your

:24:12.:24:16.

government has done over the past 12 months to make a difference and to

:24:17.:24:20.

ensure that more and more local producers are being used in the

:24:21.:24:25.

public sector? A Co-operative Group has been established and that

:24:26.:24:31.

includes, from the public sector in Wales, and the aim of the group is

:24:32.:24:39.

to ensure that we get a good deal on procurement and that is in

:24:40.:24:44.

collaboration with local bodies and the producers in order to progress

:24:45.:24:49.

this project, so things are being done within the industry. And that

:24:50.:24:54.

is to ensure that more Welsh produced food is produced. At one

:24:55.:25:01.

time one of the problems that there was not a business or organisation

:25:02.:25:08.

large enough that they could get into the market. Or that there was

:25:09.:25:14.

sustainability of supply. Things have improved now and we are looking

:25:15.:25:20.

to support these companies in different ways. Thank you. I saw the

:25:21.:25:30.

First Minister isn't as Laugh Aloud and plums to be welcomed -- is

:25:31.:25:37.

allowing plums to be served as a desert tomorrow, so I hope everybody

:25:38.:25:42.

enjoys those. But as we see the CPA not giving any support to halt a

:25:43.:25:45.

culture in Wales, what steps will you take to make sure that there is

:25:46.:25:51.

a development of infrastructure and that farmers can invest in

:25:52.:25:55.

horticulture for these new markets? This is a thing under consideration

:25:56.:25:58.

with the industry at the moment, and the first thing I would like to

:25:59.:26:02.

emphasise is that the same amount of money should be available in future

:26:03.:26:07.

as it is currently available and that funding should be allocated or

:26:08.:26:11.

ring fenced in a way that nothing should affect that without an

:26:12.:26:16.

agreement between all of the governments. Having said that, it is

:26:17.:26:20.

now an opportunity to consider in which way we can use that funding

:26:21.:26:26.

for the benefit of Welsh farmers and look at alternate ways of working,

:26:27.:26:30.

because remember, 17 years ago when I was a member of the assembly's

:26:31.:26:35.

agriculture committee there was a review undertaken on diversification

:26:36.:26:42.

and what came right at the top of the list as regards the greater

:26:43.:26:49.

strength in the sector was the cultivation of organic vegetables.

:26:50.:26:55.

And of course, the subsidy payment scheme wasn't flexible enough in

:26:56.:27:00.

order to ensure that we could use that funding in the way we might

:27:01.:27:03.

wish to use it, but there might be an opportunity to do so now. Will

:27:04.:27:08.

the First Minister make a statement on patterns of self-employment in

:27:09.:27:11.

Wales? Self-employment is a cornerstone of the success of Wales,

:27:12.:27:18.

and businesses start and grow and of course improve their contribution to

:27:19.:27:23.

the economy of Wales. This afternoon I chaired the cross-party group on

:27:24.:27:26.

small and medium-sized enterprises and it was our pleasure to welcome

:27:27.:27:32.

the Federation of small business to launch their report written by

:27:33.:27:37.

Professor Andrew Henley and Doctor Mark Lang. There were

:27:38.:27:40.

recommendations for government there. One of the stark issues was

:27:41.:27:44.

that the largest levels of self-employment are in Powys at 23%

:27:45.:27:48.

on the lowest levels are in the northern valleys at 8.7%. What

:27:49.:27:54.

specifically can the Welsh government do to incentivise and

:27:55.:27:58.

increase self-employment in those Valley communities, and particularly

:27:59.:28:00.

among underrepresented groups and women? What is interesting about the

:28:01.:28:08.

report is that there is an assumption that the reason more

:28:09.:28:11.

people are solving void is because economic circumstances have dictated

:28:12.:28:15.

that, because they lost their job -- but it seems it is an entrepreneur

:28:16.:28:19.

or real push, a desire to beat entrepreneur Oriel which is

:28:20.:28:24.

something we saw in Wales -- an entrepreneurial push. I understand

:28:25.:28:30.

some of the challenges that that can cause. How do we take it forward in

:28:31.:28:35.

the valleys? Valleys task force has done a lot of work to see how we can

:28:36.:28:39.

encourage the self-employed. I don't think they lack the flair in the

:28:40.:28:43.

valleys, and it's being able to say to people that you can do this.

:28:44.:28:48.

There is no reason you cannot be successful and people need that

:28:49.:28:51.

encouragement. That is one of the things the task force is looking

:28:52.:28:53.

forward to moving forward in the future. First Minister, I also

:28:54.:29:00.

attended the event which Evan chaired earlier on and we heard how

:29:01.:29:05.

rural Wales is heavily reliant on the contribution of self-employment

:29:06.:29:10.

and the economy as it was pointed out, 23% in Powys are self-employed

:29:11.:29:13.

compared to the Welsh average of 13%. The FSB Wales report found that

:29:14.:29:17.

those who are self-employed tend to be older, and young people are not

:29:18.:29:24.

following in their footsteps. Can I ask what consideration has the Welsh

:29:25.:29:29.

government given to understanding the barriers to young people

:29:30.:29:33.

becoming self-employed in rural Wales in particular, and what

:29:34.:29:36.

potential could a mid Wales growth deal played to ensure there are

:29:37.:29:39.

local solutions which meet the demands of self-employment in Wales

:29:40.:29:44.

and opposed to a pan Wales solution that might not be appropriate? I

:29:45.:29:48.

think regional solutions are important and members are right to

:29:49.:29:52.

say they cannot be one size fits all across Wales. When it comes to

:29:53.:29:57.

younger people, much of this -- this starts at schools. I know work is

:29:58.:30:01.

done in schools to encourage entrepreneurial projects, and the

:30:02.:30:06.

Young entrepreneur scheme which we have and also providing that

:30:07.:30:09.

financial support. All people often have access to capital in the way

:30:10.:30:13.

younger people don't -- older people. How do we support people

:30:14.:30:18.

coming into business? Business Wales is one area and the development bank

:30:19.:30:22.

will be able to assist people to come into business as well,

:30:23.:30:28.

improving the access of finance. The banks in the UK have historically

:30:29.:30:32.

been resistant to providing capital for start-up enterprises which is

:30:33.:30:34.

where we fell behind for many years, which is white the development bank

:30:35.:30:39.

will be there -- which is why. You can encourage people but they need

:30:40.:30:46.

to access capital. If they have no other family capital behind them,

:30:47.:30:49.

that is where business Wales can comment.

:30:50.:30:54.

TRANSLATION: One of the most striking things in the report is

:30:55.:31:02.

this fact, namely that 38% of the total jobs growth in Wales over the

:31:03.:31:09.

past ten years can be attributed to the self-employed and over the same

:31:10.:31:16.

period there has been no net increase in the inward investment

:31:17.:31:20.

sector and again, and I quote from the report, the language of drawing

:31:21.:31:25.

up economic policies is skewed hugely towards the importance of

:31:26.:31:30.

securing inward investment and foreign ownership. Now, does the

:31:31.:31:35.

First Minister accept the figures provided by the SFB and if so, does

:31:36.:31:41.

he accept the need to change emphasis now to indigenous business

:31:42.:31:45.

and the self-employed? Well, I don't think that we need to choose or make

:31:46.:31:51.

a choice. At one time in the days of the WDA, the emphasis was completely

:31:52.:31:56.

on inward investment and it didn't care really about small businesses.

:31:57.:32:00.

I remember talking to an employee of the WDA so, the focus was on

:32:01.:32:06.

securing inward investment and after LG, nothing else came in. So it is

:32:07.:32:13.

extremely important that we build a foundation of self employment in the

:32:14.:32:17.

economy, but I don't think that we can do that by avoiding giving any

:32:18.:32:23.

support to businesses that do employ thousands of people such as Tata,

:32:24.:32:33.

Airbus, and so on and GE who employ thousands of people in Wales so we

:32:34.:32:39.

must have an emphasis on attracting foreign investment, but it shouldn't

:32:40.:32:43.

be solely our strategy and I would argue that we have,000 struck the

:32:44.:32:46.

right balance and we want to ensure that more and more businesses aren't

:32:47.:32:51.

only established in Wales, but grow in Wales because one of the problems

:32:52.:32:55.

we've always faced is that businesses grow up to a particular

:32:56.:33:00.

level and then the owners sell them. So, we must ensure that people

:33:01.:33:04.

should be able to feel that they can grow those businesses that they

:33:05.:33:09.

become larger and that to me, is the greatest challenge in the economy

:33:10.:33:15.

I'd say. Don't sell out, stay in Wales and we will assist you to

:33:16.:33:19.

grow. How is the Welsh government supporting the palliative care

:33:20.:33:23.

sector in Wales? Yes, the updated end of life care delivery plan

:33:24.:33:28.

published in March sets out the range of actions we are taking to

:33:29.:33:32.

improve end of life care throughout Wales and that includes ?6.4 million

:33:33.:33:39.

to provide specialist palliative care services. Thank you for your

:33:40.:33:43.

answer. The majority of end of life care in Wales is provided by Wales

:33:44.:33:47.

13 adults and two children's hospices. You indicate a figure of

:33:48.:33:54.

?64 million I think you said, but they spent ?32.5 million a year to

:33:55.:33:58.

deliver those services in people's homes and also day care and respite,

:33:59.:34:04.

so they are having to raise over ?2 million a month and they're keen to

:34:05.:34:09.

help you, the Welsh government and their Local Health Boards do very

:34:10.:34:12.

much more. How can you or will you engage with them and ask them how

:34:13.:34:17.

they can help you achieve more, where perhaps a little bit more

:34:18.:34:21.

funding from the health boards and the Government would save more for

:34:22.:34:24.

health boards and liberate services toe help tackle some of the other

:34:25.:34:29.

problems we've heard referred to today in different contexts. Well,

:34:30.:34:36.

if we look at the recent report by Hospice UK in Wales, that's

:34:37.:34:40.

something we welcome, what the report said, it recognise the

:34:41.:34:45.

positive steps in the palliative and end of life delivery plan. As part

:34:46.:34:51.

of the budget agreement with Plaid Cymru we made ?1 million available

:34:52.:34:57.

to further enhance end of life care provision. That's recurrent funding

:34:58.:35:01.

as well. But, of course in terms of engagement with the sector it is the

:35:02.:35:04.

care boards that provide that level of engagement and that's why, of

:35:05.:35:09.

course, we work with them in order to identify the resource that are

:35:10.:35:12.

needed. TRANSLATION: Thank you very much,

:35:13.:35:18.

and the cross party group on hospices and palliative care here in

:35:19.:35:22.

the Assembly is looking a the possibility of holding an inquiry

:35:23.:35:26.

into how to deal with inequalities in terms of access to hospice care

:35:27.:35:32.

in Wales. We referred to the funding secured in an agreement between

:35:33.:35:35.

ourselves and the Government, but isn't the truth of the matter that a

:35:36.:35:40.

series of Labour Governments has failed to tackle that fundamental

:35:41.:35:45.

element, that there is inequality in terms of access to this crucial care

:35:46.:35:49.

across Wales? TRANSLATION: No, I don't accept

:35:50.:35:53.

that. We have ensured that there is investment available to the health

:35:54.:35:57.

boards and it's a matter for them to ensure that the service is available

:35:58.:36:02.

and it's something we worked with to ensure that that is implemented. We

:36:03.:36:05.

know that the hospices themselves have taken a greater role over the

:36:06.:36:09.

past five years than previously. Not just with the care side, but with

:36:10.:36:15.

giving people advice and now we wish to work with the boards to ensure

:36:16.:36:20.

that we know what next needs to be done in order to ensure that there

:36:21.:36:25.

is a consistent and uniformed service available throughout Wales.

:36:26.:36:33.

Question seven. What assessment has the First Minister made of the

:36:34.:36:35.

impact to anymore gration controls following Brexit will have on the

:36:36.:36:41.

NHS in Wales? Yes, it's bad. Well, I thank the First Minister for his

:36:42.:36:46.

observation, but the latest figures show that immigrant workers from the

:36:47.:36:53.

EU amount to just 1.55% of employees in NHS Wales and given that the

:36:54.:37:02.

Welsh population of immigrants from the EU amounts to 3.3%, it would

:37:03.:37:07.

seem that controls on immigration may well have a positive effect on

:37:08.:37:11.

our Health Service. But I have previously brought to the attention

:37:12.:37:16.

of this chamber the fact that each year, 80,000 applicants to work in

:37:17.:37:22.

the UK NHS are turned down due to lack of training places. Firstly,

:37:23.:37:28.

surely, First Minister, it is time that we in Wales expanded training

:37:29.:37:33.

facilities. Reconsidered the practise of sending every nurse to

:37:34.:37:37.

university, and explored the possibility of reintroducing the

:37:38.:37:43.

distinction of SEN and SRN nurses and on the ward training,

:37:44.:37:51.

particularly for SEN staff. Incidentally, in 2015, discussions

:37:52.:37:55.

on the long-term future of the NHS in Wales should sit outside the

:37:56.:37:59.

knock about of day-to-day party politics. Perhaps, First Minister,

:38:00.:38:05.

we should once again examine that excellent suggestion.

:38:06.:38:09.

Could I say to the member I cannot care a less where doctors come when

:38:10.:38:14.

they work in the Welsh NHS as long as they deliver an excellent service

:38:15.:38:19.

to our patients. We have doctors from the EU and India. Many doctors

:38:20.:38:24.

have come from India, they are great additions to our NHS. The market for

:38:25.:38:29.

doctors and nurse is worldwide. It is worldwide, people will go to

:38:30.:38:33.

where they think they will get the best deal for them as an individual

:38:34.:38:37.

and for their families. We know, for example, it is true to say that EU

:38:38.:38:41.

nurses make up a very small percentage of the NHS workforce in

:38:42.:38:45.

Wales, but can we really afford to lose 360 nurses? Is that what he is

:38:46.:38:49.

saying? He seems to be saying that's fine as long as we train people to a

:38:50.:38:52.

lower standard in the future and that would be fine as far as the

:38:53.:38:55.

future is concerned. Is he really saying for example that we don't

:38:56.:38:59.

want doctors from the EU? Well, I have to say, I want to make sure

:39:00.:39:04.

that doctors and nurses come to work in Wales regardless of their

:39:05.:39:06.

nationality because they will add a lot more to the NHS than they take

:39:07.:39:11.

out. The myth that is pedalled by his party is that somehow

:39:12.:39:14.

immigration puts a strain on the NHS. Most of the people who come to

:39:15.:39:19.

Wales are young. They pay taxes. They pay far more in than they take

:39:20.:39:24.

out via the NHS. And we know that we pay tribute to those doctors from

:39:25.:39:29.

the EU and beyond who come to work in the Welsh NHS who contribute to

:39:30.:39:32.

treating our people, who save lives and for me, that's far more

:39:33.:39:36.

important than dhebging their passport.

:39:37.:39:46.

-- checking their passport. There was criticism that the economy

:39:47.:39:51.

secretary hadn't had direct conversations with his counterpart

:39:52.:39:54.

in Ireland, but I think that may have happened now. Do you know

:39:55.:39:57.

whether there were any discussions about whether existing technology

:39:58.:40:03.

could be rolled out to help maintain the invisible border between

:40:04.:40:05.

Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland and to reduce the delays in

:40:06.:40:08.

transit of people as well between Wales and the Republic of Ireland

:40:09.:40:13.

itself? Well, firstly the reason why the committee mentioned it is

:40:14.:40:16.

because I mentioned it to the committee. I raised T I discussed it

:40:17.:40:30.

months ago with Leo Varadkar when he became Taoiseach. Why 70% of trade

:40:31.:40:34.

between GB and Ireland goes through the Welsh ports. So there have been

:40:35.:40:42.

discussions with the Irish government on this. Frankingly, I

:40:43.:40:47.

know the members view on Brexit. I appreciate them. I have now seen

:40:48.:40:51.

many documents from the UK Government that say the issue of

:40:52.:40:57.

border control will be taken forward by way of innovative technology. It

:40:58.:41:01.

doesn't exist. The technology dhoutz exist. If it existed we would have

:41:02.:41:05.

sight of it by now. It talks about havelg innovative solutions and

:41:06.:41:08.

exploring solutions, that's code for we have no idea how to deal with

:41:09.:41:13.

this. Now, it is one thing, of course, to have border-free travel

:41:14.:41:17.

or passport-free travel between Wales and Ireland, custom free

:41:18.:41:21.

travel is another thing. There was always random checks in the years

:41:22.:41:24.

gone by, but not every vehicle was checked. There is a greater problem

:41:25.:41:28.

in Dover daus the UK doesn't have the capacity at moment to put in

:41:29.:41:32.

place border controls in Dover. There were enormous delays. The same

:41:33.:41:37.

I suspect applies on the French side in Calais. I do not believe that

:41:38.:41:43.

there is a technological solution to this. If there was one then by now

:41:44.:41:47.

we'd know from the UK Government what that solution is. One of the

:41:48.:41:51.

solutions that was put to me was that there would be cameras on the

:41:52.:41:54.

border between north and south in Ireland. You put cameras in Northern

:41:55.:41:59.

Ireland, and we could open a book as to how long they would stay there.

:42:00.:42:03.

They just wouldn't stay there of the it is a million man if hes tation of

:42:04.:42:10.

the border. People would see them as a breach of the peace process. The

:42:11.:42:17.

resolution is the UK stays in the customs union F the UK leaves the

:42:18.:42:23.

customs union you have to a border like the one that exists between

:42:24.:42:27.

Gibraltar and Spain. You cannot have a scenario where goods go to

:42:28.:42:32.

different kets in two different customs unions without any physical

:42:33.:42:38.

checks on crossing a land border. In the Brexit referendum, nobody

:42:39.:42:40.

thought about Ireland and nobody thought about that border. And it is

:42:41.:42:45.

still a problem. The solution, stay in the customs union. One of the

:42:46.:42:52.

greatest threats to staffing long-term in the Welsh NHS would be

:42:53.:42:56.

for us to have a one-size-fits-all immigration policy after separation

:42:57.:43:00.

with the European Union. The University of Edinburgh have

:43:01.:43:08.

published a paper, Scottish immigration policy after Brexit,

:43:09.:43:11.

evaluating options for a different approach. It looks at a number of

:43:12.:43:15.

ways of region aland national approaches to migration post Brexit.

:43:16.:43:21.

Knowing the intentions of the UK Government in terms of their

:43:22.:43:25.

aspirations. The options include looking at human capital,

:43:26.:43:30.

points-based system, employer-led schemes and occupational shortage

:43:31.:43:33.

which I would suggest are of particular importance here in Wales

:43:34.:43:39.

and in this paper, they are proposing ways in order to have

:43:40.:43:44.

minimal administration costs and burdens. Would the First Minister

:43:45.:43:49.

agree that this is now worth explore and taking forward seriously, that

:43:50.:43:54.

we need Wales to have its say on a regional or national post Brexit

:43:55.:43:58.

migration policy for the UK because at the moment there, is the only

:43:59.:44:04.

constituent part of the UK that said little about that prospect,

:44:05.:44:10.

otherwise we face having the UK net migration target being the big

:44:11.:44:15.

policy of the UK. That will be detrimental to the Welsh economy.

:44:16.:44:21.

First of all, I don't agree with an artificial cap. I don't see what

:44:22.:44:27.

sense it has. Surely an economy needs to recruit according to its

:44:28.:44:30.

needs, not a lot of -- an artificial cap. If there were a cap, there

:44:31.:44:34.

would be serious issues over sectoral caps. I have no doubt, that

:44:35.:44:39.

the thinking of the UK Government would be, to do as much for the City

:44:40.:44:44.

of London and the financial services and we will end up with a higher

:44:45.:44:49.

sectoral cap in proportion to the city and the NHS. That would clearly

:44:50.:44:53.

not be in the interest of Wales. He did not say it specifically but I

:44:54.:44:57.

know he is intimating the idea of regional quotas. It is done in

:44:58.:45:01.

Canada and Australia, although they are far bigger, but it's not

:45:02.:45:04.

impossible to do this. Personally, I would prefer them not to be a cap,

:45:05.:45:08.

but if there is one there is a case for looking carefully at where the

:45:09.:45:11.

regional crime -- quota will work. Will the First Minister make a

:45:12.:45:23.

statement on the Welsh government's location strategy. The location

:45:24.:45:28.

strategy will deliver an economically and environmentally

:45:29.:45:30.

sustainable state that is aligned with this government's future needs.

:45:31.:45:36.

The strategy maintains our commitment to being located across

:45:37.:45:40.

Wales and ensures that we are optimising the efficiency of Alan

:45:41.:45:45.

estate and reducing operating costs. While it is in Tiree a talent that

:45:46.:45:49.

the job location strategy -- entirely apparent that the job

:45:50.:45:55.

location strategy is not helping those in Wales, those in my

:45:56.:45:57.

constituency feel that we are being left behind, a feeling which is

:45:58.:46:02.

backed up by facts. The first fact that the government intends to close

:46:03.:46:07.

and sell the building in Carmarthen West out any intention to a wrecked

:46:08.:46:11.

a new building in its place, -- without any intention. And the

:46:12.:46:17.

number of government jobs located in Karnataka has reduced by 35% over

:46:18.:46:23.

the last -- in Karnataka and has reduced. The intention is that we

:46:24.:46:28.

have failed with a matter of delivering those objectives, so will

:46:29.:46:31.

you reconsider and look at the strategy again in order to set new

:46:32.:46:37.

criteria on specific targets in order to deliver growth and quality

:46:38.:46:43.

jobs in all parts of Wales. May I say to the member that the

:46:44.:46:47.

Carmarthen West office will be quitting -- not be quitting the

:46:48.:46:53.

area, just moving building. They are moving from the building on the top

:46:54.:46:56.

and are looking at more modern office space in order to stay in the

:46:57.:47:02.

town. There is no problem about leaving there. Is it true that jobs

:47:03.:47:08.

are being lost? That is true for the whole of Wales. A thousand jobs have

:47:09.:47:13.

been lost in every part of Wales, but having said that, if we look at

:47:14.:47:19.

North Wales we have the land of no junction office and there will be

:47:20.:47:24.

development bank headquarters in Wrexham, so we are committed to

:47:25.:47:31.

moving jobs out of Cardiff at the inception -- inception of the

:47:32.:47:35.

offices there. There is not very much in Aberystwyth and the

:47:36.:47:38.

commentary -- Forestry Commission was there but nothing else. We have

:47:39.:47:41.

demonstrated our commitment to moving jobs out of Cardiff and there

:47:42.:47:47.

is no problem whatsoever with regard to that office. I know how important

:47:48.:47:52.

it is in supporting and assisting farmers and also securing employment

:47:53.:48:00.

in the town. What guarantee has the First Minister obtained from the UK

:48:01.:48:05.

Government during Brexit discussions in relation to securing human

:48:06.:48:09.

rights? The UK Government has said it will not repeal all replaced the

:48:10.:48:14.

Human Rights Act in the process of leaving the EU. We also support

:48:15.:48:21.

efforts to amend the withdrawal bill to ensure the UK continues to

:48:22.:48:25.

respect the Charter of fundamental rights after we leave the EU. When

:48:26.:48:31.

Britain leaves the EU, the Charter of fundamental rights will no longer

:48:32.:48:35.

have any effect in UK law. That means that those rights, not covered

:48:36.:48:40.

by the Human Rights Act for example, the rights to the child, workers'

:48:41.:48:43.

rights and discrimination, they could be scrapped. The Great Repeal

:48:44.:48:49.

Bill White Paper does however promised to exist -- protect

:48:50.:48:53.

existing rights. I don't know about you, First Minister, but I am hugely

:48:54.:48:58.

sceptical about a Conservative Party that opposed many of those rights in

:48:59.:49:03.

the first place, in terms of trusting them to defend right post

:49:04.:49:08.

Brexit. And we only have to look very quickly across the way that

:49:09.:49:13.

they have been willing, so far, to gamble with EU citizens or residents

:49:14.:49:19.

rights. On another tangent, First Minister, can you reassure Welsh

:49:20.:49:24.

universities over their rights to academic freedom from government

:49:25.:49:28.

meddling. I am sure you will have read today, as I have, the reports

:49:29.:49:36.

and the sinister letter sent by the Tory MP to all vice chancellors

:49:37.:49:40.

asking for the names of anyone teaching European affairs or Brexit.

:49:41.:49:47.

First of all, the EU Charter of fundamental rights contains rights

:49:48.:49:52.

and freedom on on a dignity, freedom, equality, citizens rights

:49:53.:49:54.

and justice and justice and surely there is nobody who would argue that

:49:55.:49:58.

those thing should not apply when we leave the EU and that's why it makes

:49:59.:50:01.

sense for the Charter who remain. There are some in the Conservative

:50:02.:50:05.

Party who would love to get rid of so many of the protections built up

:50:06.:50:09.

over many years. They have a hard right of the Conservative Party and

:50:10.:50:14.

I'm sure they would delight in removing as many rights and

:50:15.:50:18.

protections as possible. I hope the sensible people within the party

:50:19.:50:24.

actually win out. I understand a letter was sent by Mr Heaton Harris,

:50:25.:50:36.

to all academics demanding to know who teaches courses on Brexit and

:50:37.:50:44.

the content of those syllabuses. That is as authoritarian --

:50:45.:50:48.

authoritarian request as could possibly be made. I don't say the

:50:49.:50:52.

entire Conservative Party agree with his actions, but if that is the case

:50:53.:50:55.

it is incumbent on government ministers to slap him down.

:50:56.:51:00.

Metaphorically. It is absolutely outrageous that somebody should look

:51:01.:51:05.

to create, in effect, a list of people who are there to be

:51:06.:51:08.

criticised because they do not follow the party line. I suspect

:51:09.:51:12.

this gentleman will have a lot to deal with.

:51:13.:51:16.

That was First Minister's Questions this afternoon. If you want more

:51:17.:51:22.

coverage of the National Assembly, go online to the BBC Wales newspage.

:51:23.:51:29.

That is it for First Minister's Questions this afternoon. We won't

:51:30.:51:34.

be here next week as the assembly is in recess but we hope to have your

:51:35.:51:37.

company when we return in a fortnight. Don't forget, all the

:51:38.:51:40.

latest political news is on Wales today this evening at 6:30pm. From

:51:41.:51:48.

all of us on the team, thanks for your company this afternoon.

:51:49.:51:49.

Goodbye. # Don't want to be... #

:51:50.:52:07.

EXPLOSION

:52:08.:52:10.

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