24/10/2017 First Minister's Questions

Good afternoon. Welcome to our weekly coverage of questions to the

First Minister. Carwyn Jones will be quizzed by the other party leaders

and by fellow Assembly Members on a range of topics from poverty to

immigration controls. You can see more details on our Twitter account.

Business has started. Let's look at today's questions to the First

Minister. TRANSLATION: I call members to order

and the first item on the agenda is questions to the First Minister. The

first question is withdrawn. Therefore, question two. How does

the Welsh government ensure patient safety in Wales? Well, we hold all

NHS organisations to account on a wide range of patient safety

indicators and we encourage an opening reporting culture to enable

full investigation of every case. Thank you, minister. In North Wales

we were shocked to learn that of the 77 unintended or unexpected

incidents resulting in patient deaths registered across Wales, in

the past 12 months, more than half of these fell within the university

health board. Every single unwith of the case will have been devastating

to the family and loved ones of these patients. First Minister

Questions, will be asked to how the special measures and indeed, your

government's intervention in realising any improvement in now to

the contrary. I am asking you now, will you please commit to an inquiry

as to why the safety of patients under this board and your

government's responsibility appears to be increasingly compromised.

Well, the member doesn't fully understand the way the statistics

are compiled. Rubbish. We encourage honesty and openness and that means

we encourage people to report serious incidents. Now that means

just like the crime statistics, for example, that where more people

report serious incidents then more are recorded. It doesn't mean there

are actually more serious incidents. That said, of course, we want it

make sure the incidents are reported. Nothing should be said or

done that will discourage reporting in the future because we want to

make sure the incidents are reported and out in the open. I can say to

the member in 2016/2017 the mortality rate was 1.79% which is

less than the waste average of 1.81%. It is important that every

case is investigated and it is important that people come forward

and there is an open culture dealing with complaints and that is what I

believe we are seeing here. More complaints coming forward rather

than more cases coming forward. Question three. What work is the

Welsh government undertaking to tackle fuel poverty. Since 2011 we

have invested ?240 million to improve the energy efficiency of all

45,000 homes and we have installed energy efficiency measures to low

income households. Despite the progress being made to reduce fuel

poverty through the Welsh government's suite of actions it

seems unlikely that the target will be met. Does the Welsh government

plan to review the fuel poverty strategy and what lessons will be

drawn interest the successful and not so successful elements of the

current plan? The survey is underway. It will provide important

data help inform delivery of prosperity. It will provide us with

information including updated national fuel poverty estimates and

da to help with the targeting of delivery measures and help us to

inform discussions with stakeholdest and it will mean, of course, that we

can draw on the data the survey provides in order to help to

strengthen the strategy in the future. First Minister, I agree with

what you said about energy efficiency, but it is quite a

startling fact according to Citizens Advice, only 12% of those on lowest

incomes are on the lowest available tariffs and I think there is a jb to

be done to inform people of the tariffs that available and Welsh

government and local authorities and housing associations perhaps when

they are doing the various schemes that you are referring to can remind

people how important it is to seek out the lowest tariff. People tend

to stick with the same provider through convenience and they fail to

get the best deal. What will help, of course, is to see as the UK

government has adopt add Labour Party policy, caps on variable

energy tariffs. It will help many people who are not who have not

taken the opportunity to change their tariffs or find they are not

able to do to so to benefit from lower prices.

TRANSLATION: Questions from the party leaders. First of all, Plaid

Cymru lieder, Leanne Wood. I am aware of the public health arguments

and the needs to reduce death from cancer in particular, but public

health policy should be looking at all problematic substance use. What

assessment has your government made of the impact of minimum pricing,

alcohol pricing, on the use of other substances like illegal drugs? There

will be some people, of course, who have an addiction. It maybe that

there are some who then look at illegal drugs, but for the mast

majority of people this will have two outcomes. Firstly, it will help

reduce the health issues that surround over drinking and secondly,

actually, it will help pubs because it's the pubs who suffer the most as

a result of supermarket selling that under cuts pubs which we know are

important for our communities. There is a commercial aspect to this as

well. We make no apologies for wanting to ensure that we get rid of

scenarios where very cheap alcohol is available to people in a way that

causes them to drink too much and therefore affects their health. I

have some sympathy with the arguments that you have just

outlined but from your answer it doesn't appear as if any assessment

has been made between that link, which I hope very much is an

oversight, First Minister. We need to reduce drug related deaths as

well as alcohol related deaths. Now, drug related deaths have reached a

record high in Wales and in England according to latest figures, drug

related deaths are up 44% compared to 2012. For Wales only figures,

there was also an increase on the previous year. 168 people lost their

lives in 2015. Hospital admissions are also up which means an increased

could to public services and to the NHS and anecdotally we all know that

some people are openly using drugs in public places, on our streets, in

town centres, where it is less safe, both for them and for others. First

Minister, can you explain how your substance misuse strategy is using

devolved powers to reduce drug related hospital admissions and drug

related deaths? One of the problems that we face is the Misuse of Drugs

Act has found it difficult to keep up with new drugs as they asphere on

to the market, drugs like Spice. The leader of Plaid Cymru is right,

there is too much open use of drugs and dealers who seem not to be too

concerned about being caught. The first thing to do is to target the

dealers. They need to be convicted and jailed. That's where they

belong, off the streets, yes, it is true to say others may come forward,

but it is important to send that message. How do we deal with people

who misuse drugs? Well, the substance misuse strategy is there

to help do that. It is a combination to mined of medical intervngs, but

also being strong in term of clamping done on people who supply

the drugs. While locking up the dealers hasn't worked so far and the

powers are out of your control, what you have control over, is health.

Now, a harm reduction approach has been proven to be the most effective

at reducing drug related deaths and you claim to be committed to article

harm reduction approach. We won't know whether the actions you have

taken are sufficient until the new Welsh statistics come out this

winter, but of course, the Wales and England statistics that we've

already seen don't bode well. If you are serious about reducing drug

related deaths as well as reducing the wider social problems, you would

be open to the solutions proposed by Plaid Cymru police and crime

commissioner. Will you agree to meet and provide the police and others

the support they need to enable a suitably located pilot safe

injecting facility which would reduce harm to the public, as well

as help to reduce unnecessary deaths from harmful drugs? Well, there are

already regular meetings that take place between the police and crime

commissioners and ministers in any eye vent. It is right to say, that

there is very little point, nor would it be right to see substance

misuse as something that would be a crime. There are people who have

medical issues, the suppliers are different, but those people, of

course, who are in the position where they misuse substances the

intervention for them has to be medical and that means working with

the police, that's true. It's what the substance misuse strategy is

designed to do. She has said we are waiting for the Welsh figures. And

we want to make sure the Welsh figures show that we are seeing a

positive effect on substance misuse. But the challenge is always there,

how do you deal with in new drugs that appear all the time from drugs

that didn't economist in 1971? She is right to mention heroin. But it's

hugely important that as we do, that we develop and give our substance

misuse strategy the time to develop and in that way, I believe, we will

help more and more people to get off the substances that they become

addicted. TRANSLATION: Thank you, Presiding

Officer. There are pressures across the United Kingdom when it comes to

the Health Service. In June 2015, your government took into special

measures the North Wales health board and in March this year, you

said that actually where deficits run out of control and problems

exist in other health boards across Wales, you might well have to

consider intervening in those health boards. What we've learnt is that

the deficit has doubled in the North Wales health board, waiting time

have gone up by 79%, from 4858 to 8700 and the deficit is projected at

the end of this year to be ?100 million. That's over the three

years. ?50 million for thisunder financial year, the previous two was

?25 million. How can people have confidence that your government is

putting the health board on the road to cofr rye and the concerns that

are raised by the member are being addressed when the statistics show

on waiting time and recruitment and deficit control and reduction you

are missing your own targets? First of all, to clarify his suggestion

there will be a ?100 million deficit, we don't expect the health

boards to come in with a deficit by the end of this financial year. With

the greatest respect, your own board papers, they are projecting a

deficit in this financial year of ?50 million. It's not my

calculation, it's their cal lags and they talk of unless there are

mitigating measures and actions implemented to bring that deficit

down, that deficit will exist. Here in Cardiff, you were saying that

isn't the case. Your own managers and directors in North Wales who are

responsible for the day-to-day delivery of service are saying there

is this deficit. You can't have the two working there. Perhaps that is a

cause for concern that you're so disconnected from what is happening

on the ground. I ask you again First Minister with waiting time going

through the roof and the deficit not in control and the enable to recruit

and retain staff, either GP level or in the hospitals, how after nearly

three years under your direct supervision and control can the

residents of North Wales can confidence that their health board

is on the road to recovery. We don't expect the health board to be in

deficit. If they identify an issue, they must deal with it. He talks

about waiting lists going through the roof and offers no evidence. He

says there are problems with recruitment and retention. We have

been successful in filling training places in terms of nursing

application, do you know what GPs say to us and I have had this from

one consultant, he said the reason why I wanted to come to Wales was I

like the recruitment campaign and two other words, Jeremy Hunt!

Why are waiting times that much better in the UK than here? You say

they are not, but the 12 hour wait in England is 78 people out of a

population of 55 million. 12 hours or more in accident and emergency.

In Wales, the figure was 2438 out of a population of 3 million. They are

not my figures, they are yours. What I'm trying to seek is an ability to

have confidence, and I'm using the waiting times that your government

published last week that said they had doubled from 4858 up to 8000

708. I use the deficit figures that the health board themselves have

published in their board report. I use the example that the health

board themselves say that the deficit will exist at the end of the

financial year unless mitigating actions are taken. So everything I

have quoted to you has come either from the health board or statistics

from your own government. I really seek assurances from you, first

ministers, after nearly two and a half years of your government being

in direct control of the North Wales health board that the health board

is progressing to a situation where waiting times will come down, Doctor

vacancies will be filled, and above all, the deficit will come under

control. On two occasions you have failed to give any assurances to

date. That tells you more about sure grip on reality than it does about

anything else. All I can say to him is there has been a complete

abdication of responsibility towards the NHS in England. Every time the

health boards underperforms, it's never the fault of the Conservatives

or Jeremy and Karen is to let me give him a figure that is correct so

he can mull over -- or Jeremy Vine. In England, the highest waiting list

on record is there -- Jeremy Hunt. There were 409,342 patients over the

English target, more than doubling over the last three years. We know

in Wales, we have gone in the other direction. And he sits there and

acquiesces, in a fund to Northern Ireland, he did nothing to represent

his country. He did nothing to represent his country. What

representation has he made to the UK Government, and his colleagues, dim

demand that Wales should get the Barnett equivalent of his money --

nothing. He is too scared of them. Returning to the theme mentioned

Bailly of Plaid Cymru, the minimum pricing for alcohol, how can the

First Minister support a measure which is so regressive in the way it

works? This is a measure which is explicitly designed,

disproportionally, to target those drinks which are consumed in

disproportionate measures by people on low incomes. It is well-known

that low-income households by fewer units of alcohol, but more of what

they buy is priced at less than 40p per unit. Where is the equity in the

measure that leaves the champagne socialist of the posh suburbs of

Cardiff unaffected, but targets the beer drinkers? Is he seriously

saying that people on low incomes are proportionally bigger drinkers?

That is a snobbery I have never quite seen before. And the

consequence of his argument is that, in that case, we should reduce the

tax on tobacco, because that is disproportionately regressive as

well, so let's reduce the tax on tobacco. It's exactly the same

argument. What we want to do is make sure that alcohol does not get

cheaper and cheaper, as it has done, so that people drink more and more

because they see it as cheap. As I said early on, there is an issue

here for the pubs. Pubs have been hammered year after year by cheap

supermarket alcohol, and pubs are responsible places where people

drink. They look after people and do not serve people who are drunk and

pubs are being lost at a rate of knots in our community. You speak to

any public, they will say part of the reason is that are buying cheap

supermarket alcohol sold below cost price at some points. Of course

there is a health aspect, but as a side issue, we know that one of the

consequences is that it will provide a level play-off -- playing field

for the pubs as well. I said the opposite actually, that people on

low incomes by less alcohol overall than people on higher incomes, but

more of the alcohol they drink is cheaper brands, not more expensive

brands, so it will have a disproportionally tough effect on

people on low incomes. The Centre for economic and business research

said in 2009 that there is substantial evidence that heavier

drinkers are least responsive to price changes. The problem alcohol

drinkers are the ones least likely to respond to the measures which are

now being proposed. What will happen here is that the real problem

drinkers will carry on drinking but have less money to spend on things

like food. So in other dietary respects, their health will suffer.

This will have no positive impact whatsoever. The only people who will

really benefit are the supermarkets, because this is not a tax being

imposed, you can just raise the price of a cheap product and that

will produce extra profits for the supermarket and certainly not for

pubs. The same argument can be used for cigarettes. If you're saying the

tax for cigarettes should be reduced, let's hear him say that. As

far as arguments on alcohol are concerned, if it is cheaper, people

will drink more. This is a way of ensuring the balance is right

between the price of alcohol and people's Hell. I see nothing wrong

with that and it's a hugely important thing that we have a

responsible attitude to alcohol rather than buy one get one free, by

two, get one free. These are not always the cheapest brands. They are

often on brands proportionally quite expensive and that is the way that

people are encouraged to buy more and drink more, which surely we

don't want to encourage. There is a problem with a relatively small

number of people who overindulge, and of course, we want to target

them. But the problem with a measure of this kind is that it is so

scatter gun in the approach that it penalises the many who are moderate

drinkers, not having any measurable effect on those who we do want to

help. I don't follow the logic. He could stand up and say that it

penalises the occasional smoker, so the duty on tobacco should be

reduced. The two things have the same kind of effect. For me, it's

hugely important as a society that we don't have alcohol sold below

cost price, as we see in supermarkets, and we don't have

people being encouraged to buy more alcohol. That encourages people who

might be moderate drinkers to drink more than is good for them and that

is something we are keen to avoid. As it happens, as a side-effect, it

also enables pubs to be able to compete on a level playing field

with the supermarkets who have driven so many pubs out of business.

Don't talk to me, talk to publicans and they will tell you this. The

difference in price proportion between supermarket alcohol and pub

alcohol is greater than ever before. We need to make sure that people

have a place to go in villages where they live, through pubs, and that's

not the intention of the legislation, it is to deal with

health but there are wider effects we have identified. How is the Welsh

government using public procurement to drive up horticultural production

in Wales? The National procurement service develops Pearl -- Collabro

trip approaches to apply this to the public sector -- collaborative

approaches. I have just come from the vegetable summit being held in

the pierhead at the same time as in London and Edinburgh. And we heard

really important pledges from a wide variety of producers and promoters

of four example, children's rights. The children's Commissioner

highlighted the fact that nearly 80% of people aged five to ten are not

eating enough vegetables and 95% of 11 to 16-year-olds are not eating

enough vegetables to be able to learn and play effectively. This is

a children's rights issue. We heard important pledges from the largest

supermarket in the UK, Tesco, who have agreed to buy seasonal veg, as

well as putting more vegetables in meal deals. And Cardiff University

and Cardiff met and the health board in Cardiff, Cardiff Council, they

are all pledging to serve and promote more vegetables in their

pubs, canteens and dining rooms. What can we do to ensure that that

increased purchase of vegetables comes from Welsh producers rather

than other UK outlets, or indeed from abroad? Can I welcome the fact

that the vegetable summit is taking place and as we speak it brings

together farmers, retailers, processors and government looking at

the supply chain and how we can raise vegetable production. We are

committed through the food and drink action plan which we share with

industry boards to not only grow the sector but use it sustainably to

tackle the challenges of diet and the National procurement service has

set up buying arrangements that allow public bodies to access a wide

range of vegetable products to support healthy meal planning.

Following on from Jenny Rathbone's question, can you tell us what

discussions the Welsh government has had with local authorities on food

procurement in the public sector to ensure that more local producers are

used by local authorities, and also, can you tell us one thing that your

government has done over the past 12 months to make a difference and to

ensure that more and more local producers are being used in the

public sector? A Co-operative Group has been established and that

includes, from the public sector in Wales, and the aim of the group is

to ensure that we get a good deal on procurement and that is in

collaboration with local bodies and the producers in order to progress

this project, so things are being done within the industry. And that

is to ensure that more Welsh produced food is produced. At one

time one of the problems that there was not a business or organisation

large enough that they could get into the market. Or that there was

sustainability of supply. Things have improved now and we are looking

to support these companies in different ways. Thank you. I saw the

First Minister isn't as Laugh Aloud and plums to be welcomed -- is

allowing plums to be served as a desert tomorrow, so I hope everybody

enjoys those. But as we see the CPA not giving any support to halt a

culture in Wales, what steps will you take to make sure that there is

a development of infrastructure and that farmers can invest in

horticulture for these new markets? This is a thing under consideration

with the industry at the moment, and the first thing I would like to

emphasise is that the same amount of money should be available in future

as it is currently available and that funding should be allocated or

ring fenced in a way that nothing should affect that without an

agreement between all of the governments. Having said that, it is

now an opportunity to consider in which way we can use that funding

for the benefit of Welsh farmers and look at alternate ways of working,

because remember, 17 years ago when I was a member of the assembly's

agriculture committee there was a review undertaken on diversification

and what came right at the top of the list as regards the greater

strength in the sector was the cultivation of organic vegetables.

And of course, the subsidy payment scheme wasn't flexible enough in

order to ensure that we could use that funding in the way we might

wish to use it, but there might be an opportunity to do so now. Will

the First Minister make a statement on patterns of self-employment in

Wales? Self-employment is a cornerstone of the success of Wales,

and businesses start and grow and of course improve their contribution to

the economy of Wales. This afternoon I chaired the cross-party group on

small and medium-sized enterprises and it was our pleasure to welcome

the Federation of small business to launch their report written by

Professor Andrew Henley and Doctor Mark Lang. There were

recommendations for government there. One of the stark issues was

that the largest levels of self-employment are in Powys at 23%

on the lowest levels are in the northern valleys at 8.7%. What

specifically can the Welsh government do to incentivise and

increase self-employment in those Valley communities, and particularly

among underrepresented groups and women? What is interesting about the

report is that there is an assumption that the reason more

people are solving void is because economic circumstances have dictated

that, because they lost their job -- but it seems it is an entrepreneur

or real push, a desire to beat entrepreneur Oriel which is

something we saw in Wales -- an entrepreneurial push. I understand

some of the challenges that that can cause. How do we take it forward in

the valleys? Valleys task force has done a lot of work to see how we can

encourage the self-employed. I don't think they lack the flair in the

valleys, and it's being able to say to people that you can do this.

There is no reason you cannot be successful and people need that

encouragement. That is one of the things the task force is looking

forward to moving forward in the future. First Minister, I also

attended the event which Evan chaired earlier on and we heard how

rural Wales is heavily reliant on the contribution of self-employment

and the economy as it was pointed out, 23% in Powys are self-employed

compared to the Welsh average of 13%. The FSB Wales report found that

those who are self-employed tend to be older, and young people are not

following in their footsteps. Can I ask what consideration has the Welsh

government given to understanding the barriers to young people

becoming self-employed in rural Wales in particular, and what

potential could a mid Wales growth deal played to ensure there are

local solutions which meet the demands of self-employment in Wales

and opposed to a pan Wales solution that might not be appropriate? I

think regional solutions are important and members are right to

say they cannot be one size fits all across Wales. When it comes to

younger people, much of this -- this starts at schools. I know work is

done in schools to encourage entrepreneurial projects, and the

Young entrepreneur scheme which we have and also providing that

financial support. All people often have access to capital in the way

younger people don't -- older people. How do we support people

coming into business? Business Wales is one area and the development bank

will be able to assist people to come into business as well,

improving the access of finance. The banks in the UK have historically

been resistant to providing capital for start-up enterprises which is

where we fell behind for many years, which is white the development bank

will be there -- which is why. You can encourage people but they need

to access capital. If they have no other family capital behind them,

that is where business Wales can comment.

TRANSLATION: One of the most striking things in the report is

this fact, namely that 38% of the total jobs growth in Wales over the

past ten years can be attributed to the self-employed and over the same

period there has been no net increase in the inward investment

sector and again, and I quote from the report, the language of drawing

up economic policies is skewed hugely towards the importance of

securing inward investment and foreign ownership. Now, does the

First Minister accept the figures provided by the SFB and if so, does

he accept the need to change emphasis now to indigenous business

and the self-employed? Well, I don't think that we need to choose or make

a choice. At one time in the days of the WDA, the emphasis was completely

on inward investment and it didn't care really about small businesses.

I remember talking to an employee of the WDA so, the focus was on

securing inward investment and after LG, nothing else came in. So it is

extremely important that we build a foundation of self employment in the

economy, but I don't think that we can do that by avoiding giving any

support to businesses that do employ thousands of people such as Tata,

Airbus, and so on and GE who employ thousands of people in Wales so we

must have an emphasis on attracting foreign investment, but it shouldn't

be solely our strategy and I would argue that we have,000 struck the

right balance and we want to ensure that more and more businesses aren't

only established in Wales, but grow in Wales because one of the problems

we've always faced is that businesses grow up to a particular

level and then the owners sell them. So, we must ensure that people

should be able to feel that they can grow those businesses that they

become larger and that to me, is the greatest challenge in the economy

I'd say. Don't sell out, stay in Wales and we will assist you to

grow. How is the Welsh government supporting the palliative care

sector in Wales? Yes, the updated end of life care delivery plan

published in March sets out the range of actions we are taking to

improve end of life care throughout Wales and that includes ?6.4 million

to provide specialist palliative care services. Thank you for your

answer. The majority of end of life care in Wales is provided by Wales

13 adults and two children's hospices. You indicate a figure of

?64 million I think you said, but they spent ?32.5 million a year to

deliver those services in people's homes and also day care and respite,

so they are having to raise over ?2 million a month and they're keen to

help you, the Welsh government and their Local Health Boards do very

much more. How can you or will you engage with them and ask them how

they can help you achieve more, where perhaps a little bit more

funding from the health boards and the Government would save more for

health boards and liberate services toe help tackle some of the other

problems we've heard referred to today in different contexts. Well,

if we look at the recent report by Hospice UK in Wales, that's

something we welcome, what the report said, it recognise the

positive steps in the palliative and end of life delivery plan. As part

of the budget agreement with Plaid Cymru we made ?1 million available

to further enhance end of life care provision. That's recurrent funding

as well. But, of course in terms of engagement with the sector it is the

care boards that provide that level of engagement and that's why, of

course, we work with them in order to identify the resource that are

needed. TRANSLATION: Thank you very much,

and the cross party group on hospices and palliative care here in

the Assembly is looking a the possibility of holding an inquiry

into how to deal with inequalities in terms of access to hospice care

in Wales. We referred to the funding secured in an agreement between

ourselves and the Government, but isn't the truth of the matter that a

series of Labour Governments has failed to tackle that fundamental

element, that there is inequality in terms of access to this crucial care

across Wales? TRANSLATION: No, I don't accept

that. We have ensured that there is investment available to the health

boards and it's a matter for them to ensure that the service is available

and it's something we worked with to ensure that that is implemented. We

know that the hospices themselves have taken a greater role over the

past five years than previously. Not just with the care side, but with

giving people advice and now we wish to work with the boards to ensure

that we know what next needs to be done in order to ensure that there

is a consistent and uniformed service available throughout Wales.

Question seven. What assessment has the First Minister made of the

impact to anymore gration controls following Brexit will have on the

NHS in Wales? Yes, it's bad. Well, I thank the First Minister for his

observation, but the latest figures show that immigrant workers from the

EU amount to just 1.55% of employees in NHS Wales and given that the

Welsh population of immigrants from the EU amounts to 3.3%, it would

seem that controls on immigration may well have a positive effect on

our Health Service. But I have previously brought to the attention

of this chamber the fact that each year, 80,000 applicants to work in

the UK NHS are turned down due to lack of training places. Firstly,

surely, First Minister, it is time that we in Wales expanded training

facilities. Reconsidered the practise of sending every nurse to

university, and explored the possibility of reintroducing the

distinction of SEN and SRN nurses and on the ward training,

particularly for SEN staff. Incidentally, in 2015, discussions

on the long-term future of the NHS in Wales should sit outside the

knock about of day-to-day party politics. Perhaps, First Minister,

we should once again examine that excellent suggestion.

Could I say to the member I cannot care a less where doctors come when

they work in the Welsh NHS as long as they deliver an excellent service

to our patients. We have doctors from the EU and India. Many doctors

have come from India, they are great additions to our NHS. The market for

doctors and nurse is worldwide. It is worldwide, people will go to

where they think they will get the best deal for them as an individual

and for their families. We know, for example, it is true to say that EU

nurses make up a very small percentage of the NHS workforce in

Wales, but can we really afford to lose 360 nurses? Is that what he is

saying? He seems to be saying that's fine as long as we train people to a

lower standard in the future and that would be fine as far as the

future is concerned. Is he really saying for example that we don't

want doctors from the EU? Well, I have to say, I want to make sure

that doctors and nurses come to work in Wales regardless of their

nationality because they will add a lot more to the NHS than they take

out. The myth that is pedalled by his party is that somehow

immigration puts a strain on the NHS. Most of the people who come to

Wales are young. They pay taxes. They pay far more in than they take

out via the NHS. And we know that we pay tribute to those doctors from

the EU and beyond who come to work in the Welsh NHS who contribute to

treating our people, who save lives and for me, that's far more

important than dhebging their passport.

-- checking their passport. There was criticism that the economy

secretary hadn't had direct conversations with his counterpart

in Ireland, but I think that may have happened now. Do you know

whether there were any discussions about whether existing technology

could be rolled out to help maintain the invisible border between

Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland and to reduce the delays in

transit of people as well between Wales and the Republic of Ireland

itself? Well, firstly the reason why the committee mentioned it is

because I mentioned it to the committee. I raised T I discussed it

months ago with Leo Varadkar when he became Taoiseach. Why 70% of trade

between GB and Ireland goes through the Welsh ports. So there have been

discussions with the Irish government on this. Frankingly, I

know the members view on Brexit. I appreciate them. I have now seen

many documents from the UK Government that say the issue of

border control will be taken forward by way of innovative technology. It

doesn't exist. The technology dhoutz exist. If it existed we would have

sight of it by now. It talks about havelg innovative solutions and

exploring solutions, that's code for we have no idea how to deal with

this. Now, it is one thing, of course, to have border-free travel

or passport-free travel between Wales and Ireland, custom free

travel is another thing. There was always random checks in the years

gone by, but not every vehicle was checked. There is a greater problem

in Dover daus the UK doesn't have the capacity at moment to put in

place border controls in Dover. There were enormous delays. The same

I suspect applies on the French side in Calais. I do not believe that

there is a technological solution to this. If there was one then by now

we'd know from the UK Government what that solution is. One of the

solutions that was put to me was that there would be cameras on the

border between north and south in Ireland. You put cameras in Northern

Ireland, and we could open a book as to how long they would stay there.

They just wouldn't stay there of the it is a million man if hes tation of

the border. People would see them as a breach of the peace process. The

resolution is the UK stays in the customs union F the UK leaves the

customs union you have to a border like the one that exists between

Gibraltar and Spain. You cannot have a scenario where goods go to

different kets in two different customs unions without any physical

checks on crossing a land border. In the Brexit referendum, nobody

thought about Ireland and nobody thought about that border. And it is

still a problem. The solution, stay in the customs union. One of the

greatest threats to staffing long-term in the Welsh NHS would be

for us to have a one-size-fits-all immigration policy after separation

with the European Union. The University of Edinburgh have

published a paper, Scottish immigration policy after Brexit,

evaluating options for a different approach. It looks at a number of

ways of region aland national approaches to migration post Brexit.

Knowing the intentions of the UK Government in terms of their

aspirations. The options include looking at human capital,

points-based system, employer-led schemes and occupational shortage

which I would suggest are of particular importance here in Wales

and in this paper, they are proposing ways in order to have

minimal administration costs and burdens. Would the First Minister

agree that this is now worth explore and taking forward seriously, that

we need Wales to have its say on a regional or national post Brexit

migration policy for the UK because at the moment there, is the only

constituent part of the UK that said little about that prospect,

otherwise we face having the UK net migration target being the big

policy of the UK. That will be detrimental to the Welsh economy.

First of all, I don't agree with an artificial cap. I don't see what

sense it has. Surely an economy needs to recruit according to its

needs, not a lot of -- an artificial cap. If there were a cap, there

would be serious issues over sectoral caps. I have no doubt, that

the thinking of the UK Government would be, to do as much for the City

of London and the financial services and we will end up with a higher

sectoral cap in proportion to the city and the NHS. That would clearly

not be in the interest of Wales. He did not say it specifically but I

know he is intimating the idea of regional quotas. It is done in

Canada and Australia, although they are far bigger, but it's not

impossible to do this. Personally, I would prefer them not to be a cap,

but if there is one there is a case for looking carefully at where the

regional crime -- quota will work. Will the First Minister make a

statement on the Welsh government's location strategy. The location

strategy will deliver an economically and environmentally

sustainable state that is aligned with this government's future needs.

The strategy maintains our commitment to being located across

Wales and ensures that we are optimising the efficiency of Alan

estate and reducing operating costs. While it is in Tiree a talent that

the job location strategy -- entirely apparent that the job

location strategy is not helping those in Wales, those in my

constituency feel that we are being left behind, a feeling which is

backed up by facts. The first fact that the government intends to close

and sell the building in Carmarthen West out any intention to a wrecked

a new building in its place, -- without any intention. And the

number of government jobs located in Karnataka has reduced by 35% over

the last -- in Karnataka and has reduced. The intention is that we

have failed with a matter of delivering those objectives, so will

you reconsider and look at the strategy again in order to set new

criteria on specific targets in order to deliver growth and quality

jobs in all parts of Wales. May I say to the member that the

Carmarthen West office will be quitting -- not be quitting the

area, just moving building. They are moving from the building on the top

and are looking at more modern office space in order to stay in the

town. There is no problem about leaving there. Is it true that jobs

are being lost? That is true for the whole of Wales. A thousand jobs have

been lost in every part of Wales, but having said that, if we look at

North Wales we have the land of no junction office and there will be

development bank headquarters in Wrexham, so we are committed to

moving jobs out of Cardiff at the inception -- inception of the

offices there. There is not very much in Aberystwyth and the

commentary -- Forestry Commission was there but nothing else. We have

demonstrated our commitment to moving jobs out of Cardiff and there

is no problem whatsoever with regard to that office. I know how important

it is in supporting and assisting farmers and also securing employment

in the town. What guarantee has the First Minister obtained from the UK

Government during Brexit discussions in relation to securing human

rights? The UK Government has said it will not repeal all replaced the

Human Rights Act in the process of leaving the EU. We also support

efforts to amend the withdrawal bill to ensure the UK continues to

respect the Charter of fundamental rights after we leave the EU. When

Britain leaves the EU, the Charter of fundamental rights will no longer

have any effect in UK law. That means that those rights, not covered

by the Human Rights Act for example, the rights to the child, workers'

rights and discrimination, they could be scrapped. The Great Repeal

Bill White Paper does however promised to exist -- protect

existing rights. I don't know about you, First Minister, but I am hugely

sceptical about a Conservative Party that opposed many of those rights in

the first place, in terms of trusting them to defend right post

Brexit. And we only have to look very quickly across the way that

they have been willing, so far, to gamble with EU citizens or residents

rights. On another tangent, First Minister, can you reassure Welsh

universities over their rights to academic freedom from government

meddling. I am sure you will have read today, as I have, the reports

and the sinister letter sent by the Tory MP to all vice chancellors

asking for the names of anyone teaching European affairs or Brexit.

First of all, the EU Charter of fundamental rights contains rights

and freedom on on a dignity, freedom, equality, citizens rights

and justice and justice and surely there is nobody who would argue that

those thing should not apply when we leave the EU and that's why it makes

sense for the Charter who remain. There are some in the Conservative

Party who would love to get rid of so many of the protections built up

over many years. They have a hard right of the Conservative Party and

I'm sure they would delight in removing as many rights and

protections as possible. I hope the sensible people within the party

actually win out. I understand a letter was sent by Mr Heaton Harris,

to all academics demanding to know who teaches courses on Brexit and

the content of those syllabuses. That is as authoritarian --

authoritarian request as could possibly be made. I don't say the

entire Conservative Party agree with his actions, but if that is the case

it is incumbent on government ministers to slap him down.

Metaphorically. It is absolutely outrageous that somebody should look

to create, in effect, a list of people who are there to be

criticised because they do not follow the party line. I suspect

this gentleman will have a lot to deal with.

That was First Minister's Questions this afternoon. If you want more

coverage of the National Assembly, go online to the BBC Wales newspage.

That is it for First Minister's Questions this afternoon. We won't

be here next week as the assembly is in recess but we hope to have your

company when we return in a fortnight. Don't forget, all the

latest political news is on Wales today this evening at 6:30pm. From

all of us on the team, thanks for your company this afternoon.

Goodbye. # Don't want to be... #

EXPLOSION