01/12/2011 Hearts and Minds

Hello and welcome to the programme. Coming up this week.

Can MLAs support public service strikes, but still implement the

cuts that provoke them? The former Secretary of State who

says email hacking at the NIO would have put lives at risk.

Courting Catholics, but can Robbo confront righteous backwoods wrath?

And why, despite all the reaching out by politicians, the damned

The trade unions claimed massive public support for their strike

yesterday. And said 150,0000 people took part in the action. Prominent

on the picket lines were a number of SDLP and Sinn Fein MLAs,

although Unionists crossed the lines to get into work at Stormont.

So can politicians support industrial action which is provoked

by the very policies they are endorsing and implementing?

Mitchel McLaughlin, you're they yesterday. I imagine what the

conversation was like. And sorry about your pensions? There

certainly was a conversation, as you can imagine. The trade union

movement generally are in negotiations with the British

government. That's perfectly understandable sense is the British

government which is then pausing best pension levy, not the

executive. -- imposing. Which frontline services should be

sacrificed, we have to decide. We have protested to the British

government and they had imposed a levy. Or we will take �100 million

a year out of your fund. The same thing happened with Scotland and

they have not decided whether or not to go ahead with it, but they

have registered a protest, which you don't appear to have done.

did, and secondly, we recognise and support the right of workers to

protest about this. The main confrontation, as I've said, is in

Westminster. There, the problem can be solved. I don't see it being

addressed in terms of the other assembly, as yet for the Dolores

Kelly, in extreme disagreement, it would appear. No, I think it's

quite clear he needs to condense his colleagues. There is no pension

crisis. The local government, low- paid workers, classroom assistants

and council staff, there's no crisis whatsoever. Sinn Fein are

voted through the cuts, which the Scottish assembly members refused

to accept. There is a 3.25% cut in pensions overall, but Sinn Fein

have a lot of explaining to do, because they could have voted

against the implementation. It's a pay cut. 6-�2 on average. Let's

move to the other side of the house, John McAllister, did you cross the

picket line yesterday? No, I stop other picket-line. I spoke to

people on the line. Did you apologise? No, I wanted to get the

message out on the Ulster Unionists, it was right to strike. The same as

we respect it was right to continue to work. Lots of people continued

to work. I think it should have been done where each side respects

the other. Don't you be hypocritical? You are the executive

of the government would is implementing the economic policies.

We were not balloted on strike action. It was important to send a

message out, for Stormont, it was business as usual, so I attended a

meeting of the health committee. We discussed the Compton review.

former colleague appeared on picket lines. Yes, protesting to cuts and

campaigning for more money for the health service. I have no issue

with anybody being on the picket line. The message I would be

putting out, I respect people's right to be there. I took time to

exchange views with people in a very calm and responsible way. It

was all very good nature, the exchanges. Then I crossed the line

and went on to Stormont. Simon Hamilton, Peter Robinson said he

was disappointed the strike was going ahead, and union leaders

seemed set to do that regardless of the big decisions going on. Would

you say going on strike won't bring a single job to Northern Ireland?

wondered what merit that was in strike action. An expression of

anger. I support some of his right to strike and I understand and have

sympathy for those who were negatively affected by these

changes, but the people who are really suffering yesterday, were

those waiting Vosper operations and had their schools closed, who

couldn't earn money because buses and trains were cancelled. These

are changes being implemented by Westminster and the maintenance of

pensions is something which is paramount and the unions know that

the case. If we want to follow through with these changes, the

deficit would be �140 million every year recurring, each year. The

impact on that on frontline services would be immense, and,

instead of having a situation where we are protecting jobs in the

public sector, protecting services, it would have an inevitable

consequence on most jobs for the and we would be talking about

redundancies. In the past, Alex Salmond strode into the Scottish

Parliament and said they would resist this. They are now following

through with these changes, following Westminster. Sinn Fein

promised the people on the north, they would have a �4 billion

package for North, but there wasn't much point of principle, reneging

by the British government on that point. There was a substantial...

There was a substantial package on devolution. The government is

reneging on capital investment. That is being taken through a joint

a ministerial debate. We are keeping the government to their

promise in that respect. It's easy for Dolores Kelly and her party, to

stand on picket lines. �140 million each year taken out of our budget

will have a massive detrimental impact on public services in

Northern Ireland and I don't think it's what the unions want to see.

There's no crisis within those pensions. Low-paid workers, you

could take a stand on behalf of them. Let's remember what got us

into this crisis. It only a matter of days from a highly paid

executive negotiating a �20,000 pay rise in the face of other people

losing their jobs. How is that protecting frontline services? Your

party accepted a �60 million bonus for the Prison Service Retirement

Fund on the back of staff who actually, report after report,

criticised poor performance. I want to bring in Mitchel McLaughlin.

would think the SDLP had walked off the protest because they could not

stomach this but they implemented this. We voted against it. It's a

stand-alone scheme and we are prepared to accept it pulls up 8%

of public sector workers, over 200,000 workers, not included in

that and we have to deal with them. We hope, in reciprocation for

supporting this argument, the SDLP will support our proposition that

any public sector workers earning less than �32,000 per annum would

be excluded because there's a lot of highly paid civil servants and

we believe they can carry that load better than those on low wages.

Perhaps the SDLP would consider it. Are you going to support Alex

Salmond? Yes, it is self financing scheme. I'm glad Sinn Fein accepts

the SDLP position on this. It's our position. We welcome their support.

I think people have sympathy for public sector workers. This is a

dangerous course of action. The maintenance of pensions, similar to

social security, is absolutely critical, and once you start

getting away from what the Westminster government is doing,

they can come down on the Northern Ireland and come down on us like a

For the they are self financing. It is different, but there is a

massive deficit of around a million pounds this up -- a billion pounds.

I'm not in favour of creating a two-tier system in public sector

workers. We cannot afford, no matter about payments, but there is

a deficit, Deloris, and you have to get your facts right. There is a

real danger, playing fast and loose with a pension schemes and the

dangers which are inherent within that, if Westminster Sears stepping

beyond what they are doing. -- sees as a stepping beyond. It's got to

be about much more than the pensions issue. What will happen

when there's another day of action on a different issue? Are you a

game you going to have to walk to a picket line, saying that your

sympathy is with the people on strike but knowing your

implementing the policies that are bringing them up to the strike

lines? It's a Westminster matter, this one. Beyond that, future

protests. It's disingenuous to say we are going to stand on a picket

lines and fight while writing to schools and saying, we are taking

5% of your budgets. Schools are frontline services, and I don't

know what else would constitute a frontline service. You can't have

Of the government and the unions need to get round the table, sort

out the pension issue, but we have to be realistic about the money.

The national scene, there is no more money. The Chancellor has made

that clear. If we risk putting a borrowing, and we are going to be

in serious bother for the look at the Republic of Ireland, the large

numbers of countries across Europe, the crisis in the eurozone, you

know, they are sitting... What does the assembly have to offer the

hundreds of thousands of public sector workers, who see their

position, not just their pension, their jobs and serves as, under

threat? Can you say to them, sorry, there's nothing we can do? Pensions,

it's very difficult. Moving beyond that. I would point to the fact

that if you go across the water to Great Britain, a lot of these cuts

have hit local authorities, and what they had done to stave off

these cutbacks, is a sack public sector workers, and in Northern

Ireland we have tried to deal with the reductions, as a result of

these cutbacks but we're not doing that. We are largely protecting our

public sector workers. It may be cold comfort to some people who say

the impact on their pensions, but we haven't had to go through that

massive reductions in public sector workers yet. Does it lie ahead?

afraid there are very tough decisions ahead. 85,000 in this

time of austerity, budget being slashed, 85,000 empty desks in the

education system. We cannot delay any longer. I can understand the

system, particularly those in employment. They have protected

that. We cannot afford to carry 85,000, that's the equivalent of

150 ante schools. Have you anything other than cold comfort for public

sector workers? I would like to thank our MPs who were at

Westminster as they, supporting the Labour Party. You have not answered

my question. The last election? It's interesting to hear the

argument that Sinn Fein, if the thing to do with us, one they

implementing them. What is the SDLP's message? We actually need to

look for greater efficiencies. Don't be fooled, there are numerous

jobs not being filled, so there are vacancies. And large-scale

redundancies. We have to do a lot more, in Northern Ireland are piles

of them are opportunities, and in at 2013, an opportunity of bringing

visitors to Northern Ireland. items to be had. Thank you very

There was a time, not that long ago, when a simple few fixed messages

made life easy for the DUP. Every speech was a variation of the no,

no, never refrain from the Wild Rover. That only vision was rear-

view mirror stuff where playgrounds, pubs, cinemas and shops stayed

locked on Sundays with the weeping angels of Free Presbyterian -- Free

Presbyterianism. The DUP was a religious sect, a happy-clappy

cabal. All Roman Catholics were obviously IRA supporters and any

Unionist leader who smiled on nodded a welcome at once, deserved

a stake on the bonfire. It was that simple. But they have now

discovered there is a price be paid for electoral success and a seat at

the top table. That price is the Unionist will depend on the Roman

Catholics for survival. It explains why last Saturday Peter Robinson

was appealing to Roman Catholics. Let's be honest, he will never be

appealing to Roman Catholics but you know what I mean. Peter handed

out a hand of friendship and painted a piece of love and harmony

in which all of us could frolic happily in the turquoise world of

smiling children and laughing policeman. But while Peter was

giving us his nails and Vic -- Mills and Boon version, some of the

others were playing along to the unconvinced elements of the crowd.

That Sammy Wilson. One of those three joke comedians who won

Opportunity knocks in the 1970s. His act is an odd mix of absolutely

Fabulous and Cannon and Ball. Indeed, it was absolute balls.

Nigel dogs died -- tried a knockabout as well. -- Nigel Dodds

tried a knockabout as well. The audience loved the old-style

religion and the even older style political jibes from Sammy and

Nigel. It pressed all the right buttons. In an age -- in an age of

political correctness, the evangelical old guard wanted to be

reassured that putting the boot into opponents as he steered them

towards eternal damnation was still part of the DUP's role. It

resembled parts of the Bernard Manning appreciation Society.

Therein lies Peter Robinson's greatest challenge. The only light

some of the DUP faithful want to see is the flames from the pyre of

Republican dreams. For some of them, Catholics voting for the union is

the modern-day version of the croppies lie down again. Has Peter

Robinson reached his political pique and left to many of them

behind. The thoughts of Alex Keay. -- Alex

Kane. With all the talks of Wall's coming down, the peace waltz seemed

to be here to stay. New barriers are still going up -- a piece waltz.

A gate in the fence that divides Alex trying to have Alexandra Park

in North Belfast is opened. It is certainly not one of the most

contentious interfaces but it shows just how difficult dealing with

walls and barriers is when even a mock and change like this is

greeted with a celebration -- a modest change like this is greeted

with celebration. They started as makeshift barriers to keep the

peace but as the troubles continued, the walls became permanent. Mickey

is an historian and community worker but in the 80s he was a

contractor. One of the contract was to build this peace wall behind a.

We thought it was a great idea. Having struggled to make a couple

of quid. When I see them now, I'm sorry I build them. On one hand, in

principle, you want a wall to be taken away. However, the

realisation on the other hand is that for years and years when these

walls were here, it perpetuated a whole climate of fear. Now he also

runs walking tours and our divisions have become a tourist

attraction. This wall was to divide and separate the two communities.

But there are the interface areas the visitors do not see but where

people still have to live. False, the skirl of them, the number of

them, the length of them -- the scale of them, are almost

guarantees that the change to these areas will not come. This man is

worried because he says peace walls are not just part of our past. What

is this for? It was built as part of a scheme to redevelop the land

to the right hand side of it which was for housing for the Protestant

loyalist population who would be backing on to this nationalist area

here of Ardoyne. It was designed to ensure that the residents who live

within 50 feet of each other could not talk to each other. And, he

says, there is a danger that they will be a part of our future as

well. We must have a commitment to building no more new ones and say

where there are security issues, that is for the police to workout

with the local community. feeling is policing does not solve

community problems but community solutions can solve policing

problems. Chief Superintendent Mark Hamilton is responsible for north

and West Belfast, the area with the majority of the city's interfaces.

Who says reported incidents of sectarian crime are down but it is

still a huge part of his work. think the issue is why people feel

the need to come together and contest space or attack homes or

cars or attack each other. We are recognising that a couple of police

Land Rovers on their own sitting at an interface deals with that point

in time but does not deal with the long term. There is no doubt

interface violence has not gone away but surely where it has, we

can begin to remove barriers? Last year Hearts And Minds told you

about attempts by Community residents to get this barrier

opened during the day to alleviate traffic congestion. But residents

were only happy to see it opened if they had traffic-calming measures

in the street. Traffic calming is the responsibility for the

Department of regional development and barriers are now the

responsibility for the Department of Justice. Because of the

bureaucracy they found they were getting know where. Now, the

Justice Minister has stepped in and released money from his department

to the Department of regional development to pay for the traffic-

calming. But is this just a one- off? Does this mean the Department

of Justice is taking the lead elsewhere? We have to look at the

wide issues of because -- of the strategy. It includes community

safety and some of the interface areas. As a result of that work and

we see people wanting the ball -- of the wall to be removed or

wanting a gate, we are prepared to take the lead with the other

agencies we work with like the police in seeing week meet the

requirements of the local community. Despite this, there is no agreed

policy at Stormont to address these issues. Here on the street, that

does not necessarily mean that nothing is happening. In this area

of North Belfast, residents are continuing to do it for themselves.

When we were out doing a survey over another gate last year, we

were approached by residents who said they would love this gate

opened. We did a survey to the houses here and we only had one

objection. We are trying to ensure quality of life issues, that they

can be improved. It is giving people a growing confidence that

things can change. People in these areas cannot wait for the

government to make up their mind about whether they will do a, B or

C. People are taking on their own bat. If people on the street are

able to take the initiative, the government should be doing it

anyway. Julia Paul reporting. A hackers

working for News International did try to gain access to the email

accounts of the former Secretary of State Peter Hain, it would be a new

dimension to irresponsibility and lawlessness, according to his

success or on the job, Shaun Woodward. Mr Woodward joins us from

Westminster. We do not know if this has happened. Do you think it is

likely that it did? Only a few months ago, we did not think that

there had been an organised campaign of hacking people's phones.

We now know the scale of it and involves one of the biggest

criminal investigations undertaken by the Metropolitan Police. I think

we would be foolish to be complacent about this. If there is

a serious suggestion that there seems to be that Peter Hain's

computers were hacked and his email accounts were hacked, I think that

has to be taken extremely seriously until it is disproved. What kind of

material would you find in those email accounts? There will be two

kinds of the Manor Ground. There will be the one that runs between

the Northern Ireland Office and the Westminster and that would be

subject to the highest security surroundings to ensure it could not

be hacked into but on the other hand, let's remember that we have

seen stories of the Pentagon being hacked into by a highly gifted

amateurs. It would be foolish for anyone to say it is impossible

because we know at the Pentagon these things can happen. I think

that is unlikely. I think what is more likely is that these private

investigators, if they were trying to hack Peter's emails would have

gone for his personal accounts. The problem about the personal accounts

is whilst you would only have but innocuous information into them and

I'm sure Peter would have been very careful not put sensitive

information in, the fact of the matter is the office in Northern

Ireland and the office in Westminster senti bits of

information you need when you're travelling, working between the

offices -- send you bits of information. My worry is that

little bits of information would have gone on there and in the hands

of a private investigator, it would be possible to put together

patterns of his movements, people who was meeting with and if they

were sharing that with any third parties, and if they were

discussing the significance of a meeting orate timing with anybody

in Northern Ireland, the simple ease with which that information

gets into the hands of the wrong people, and I clearly mean those

who would undermine the peace process, this would be a serious

issue. It should worry the security services that it might have

happened. It is a big step from saying people working for News

International why -- might have be wanton some personal tittle-tattle

and sharing the information with people who would use it to cost

lives? That is what I did not say. If you take a piece of innocuous

information. Let's say you knew that Peter Hain was going to

something next Saturday at 4:30pm but you might know -- not know what

it was, you might be tempted to say, does anybody know anything about

why he might go there? You might have people asking people and

seemingly unintentionally, you could have ended up passing on

information to the wrong people. Let's be frank. How many of those

4,000 people who lost their lives during the Troubles, lost them, not

because anybody deliberately gave a piece of information but because

unfortunately, somebody established a pattern, a little bit of

information here and there but in the hands of the wrong people,

these are experts at putting together these little bits of

information. The risk is that unintentionally, I'm sure, if they

did this, they could not only have put the life of the Secretary of

State at risk and that is a very serious issue. We think of very

neat and other examples of political targets, -- Erin leave.

But they could have risked the lives of the public. Of course,

they would not deliberately have gone out to do so but the

consequences of loose talk and people being callous and

irresponsible, it may have never occurred to them the consequences

of what they might have done, if they did do this. Have you had any

contact with the Metropolitan Police in this investigation which

is a separate one from the Weeting inquiry into phone hacking? I am

not going to make any statement about the contact I have had with

the Metropolitan Police about the overall investigation except to say,

but I think none of us should be complacent. Mr Woodward, thank you

very much indeed. That is where we leave it this time

round. We will do it again next week at the usual time. Goodbye.

All right, Noel. What I need is a good discussion about politics.

a private sector worker with no pension, I want to say I support

yesterday's strike 100 % and I hope there is more especially by eight

trams link workers because I cleaned up. I picked up strikers

wanting me to take them to Jeremy Clarkson's house. Funny how